Lettering Artist Dan Lee on Why Graphic Designers Must Chase Obsession, Not Trends

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Lettering Artist Dan Lee on Why Graphic Designers Must Chase Obsession, Not Trends"

The Angry Designer — September 18, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, The Angry Designer team (Massimo and Sean) sit down live at CropCon in Austin with celebrated lettering artist Dan Lee (aka @dandrawnwords), delving deep into the creative process, the value of obsession over trends, and what it really takes to build a lasting, rewarding design career. They cover topics avoided by most design podcasts: the path to discovering true passion, the role of failure, the double-edged sword of AI, and how to navigate the realities of being a creative when the world pushes practicality over artistry.

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Key Topics and Insights

1. Finding Your Style, Knowing When to Stop (00:23–03:47)

• Message and Execution: Dan discusses the tension between intricate, detailed letterforms and straightforward, impactful messaging. Sometimes quick, memorable slogans are more effective than intricate lettering.

  • “[S]ometimes you're kind of like, you should go for the thing where you get the slogan registered in people's minds in two seconds flat.” — Dan Lee (00:47)

• Artistic Completion: The challenge of knowing when a design is “done” is central to every artist’s journey.

  • “That’s literally your job as an artist to decide that, because what you decide… is gon’ be different from what another artist decides.” — Dan Lee (01:28)

• Iteration as Growth: Multiple restarts and drafts aren’t failures, but valuable steps in the creative process.

  • “Starting over is not failing, or even if it is failing, it’s failing toward… another goal forward... a fail is only a failure if you don’t learn anything from it.” — Massimo (03:47, 03:51)

2. The Power of Obsession vs. Passing Trends (06:02–07:27, 39:40–40:23)

• Chasing Genuine Obsession: True creative growth comes from deep focus and joy in the work, not from chasing what’s popular.

  • “When you have the passion behind something of more than just... conquering it as a skill, you're not going to be able to stop doing it. The obsession is just going to take over.” — Dan Lee (06:02)
  • “Finding your style is just so much about finding the thing that you lose time doing and you enjoy it.” — Dan Lee (06:19)

• On Trends: Trends rise and fall, but those who are authentically obsessed will endure long past the trend-cycle:

  • “The people who come out on top are the ones who stick with it and, like, know that it’s something that they… obsession. Like, if you have the obsession with it, you are gonna do it long past its trendiness.” — Dan Lee (39:40)

3. Passion vs. Addiction—Gaming as a Modern Parallel (10:00–16:00)

• Passion vs. Addiction: The hosts discuss how to differentiate between healthy passion (which leads to growth and fulfillment) and obsession/addiction (which may be escapist).
• Gaming as a Creative Journey: Dan draws parallels between the difficulty and reward in games like Elden Ring and the creative process.
  • “Because of the difficulty, the victories that you achieve in [the] game have the opportunity to make you feel like very strongly, like you've accomplished something... More so than a lot of other games that are easier.” — Dan Lee (13:30)
  • On learning from failures: “Every time you learn a little bit more about how this boss moves...you learn a bit more about the skills...and then if you have that moment of clarity in your life to be like, oh, yeah, this addiction...I can get over this thing.” — Dan Lee (14:24)

4. Overcoming the “Rules” & Embracing the Unconventional Path (17:35–36:22)

• False Sense of Certainty: Dan reveals how he originally believed there was a strict set of rules and permissions required to break into creative work, but learned otherwise.

  • “It was almost like a mindset of preemptive failure... thinking that there were this, this very clear set of rules for the world that you had to follow in order to get to the good stuff.” — Dan Lee (17:53)

• The ‘Starving Artist’ Myth: Societal pressure often tells young artists to have “a real profession,” relegating their passion to a side project.

  • “You're so validated...when people, like, see the passion you put into artwork...And at the same time, they're just kind of like, there's no way you're gonna make a living doing this.” — Dan Lee (19:23)

• The Nonlinear Path: Dan recounts how his path led from chemical engineering to full-time creative work, propelled by a moment of clarity and familial support.

  • “I have a master's degree in chemical engineering...The main reason I'm glad I picked [it] was because it was so far away from art and design that I had to...pick between the two.” — Dan Lee (21:27, 27:38)

• Importance of Teachers: A touching segment underscores how key mentors can affirm an artist’s path and provide validation when most needed.

  • “She called me. She told me it's okay to feel sad. Don't feel like you should not feel sad.... It's one thing to have a lot of people say like, hey man, I'm here for you.... It's another to have somebody tell you...What you're feeling is valid.” — Dan Lee (24:07–24:59)

5. Personal Projects as Launchpads (33:22–35:11)

• Dan’s Instagram project, “Dan Drawn Words,” started organically and grew from simply needing an outlet to share work.
  • “I was just like, I need to do this for fun.... And that, long story short, that's where I...That's how it all happened.” — Dan Lee (35:11)

6. The Journey versus the End Result—AI’s Role in Creativity (44:21–51:27)

• AI as Concepting Tool: Dan draws a hard line between using AI for ideation versus final deliverables, warning that skipping the journey is a disservice to both the artist and the process.

  • “People using AI for final assets...AI as a concept is for concepting...It’s capable of approximating really good final assets, but without the discretion to know what makes it a good final asset. Without the human element.” — Dan Lee (44:21, 44:55)
  • “What pisses me off is I think it is training people out of that muscle. They are so overwhelmed by the miracle of it...that they're not thinking about...is this the best way that I could say this?" — Dan Lee (45:44)

• Great Analogy:

  • “AI to me is jumping in a private jet and flying 26.2 miles and getting out and being like, I ran a marathon.... You efficiently traveled 26.2 miles...but you can't sit there and Tell me that you ran a marathon by flying in that private jet.” — Dan Lee (47:40)

• Critical Thinking & Craft Will Prevail: The hosts and Dan agree: while tech may change the work, genuine human craft and process remain irreplaceable.

  • “Craft will not die...People support people." — Dan Lee (53:12, 53:20)
  • “It fakes creativity, it fakes talent. It's not capable of it.” — Massimo (52:44)

7. Advice: What’s Enduring about Lettering and Passion (41:20–44:02)

• Lettering Anchored in Context: Classic, functional hand-lettering comes from deep study of letterforms and applying them contextually, not just flashy trends.
  • “If you understand the context of lettering really well...then I think you're gonna be all right.” — Dan Lee (42:19)
  • “You have to have that instinct to be like, I love this, but this is what is right for the job.” — Dan Lee (43:01)

8. The Human Journey (53:00–54:36)

• Artists and designers must continue defending the value of process, obsession, and the uniquely human side of making. Clients ultimately seek this journey, not just the output.
  • “We can create machines that will do a hundred meter dash in five seconds, but Olympics...everybody waits for that one hundred meter sprint. And they want to see people.” — Massimo (53:20)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On artistic completion:
  “That’s literally your job as an artist to decide that, because what you decide… is gon’ be different from what another artist decides.” — Dan Lee (01:28)

• On failure and growth:
  “Starting over is not failing, or even if it is failing, it’s failing toward… another goal forward.” — Massimo (03:47)

• On obsession as a compass:
  “When you have the passion behind something of more than just... conquering it as a skill, you're not going to be able to stop doing it.” — Dan Lee (06:02)

• On the role of AI:
  “AI to me is jumping in a private jet and flying 26.2 miles and getting out and being like, I ran a marathon.” — Dan Lee (47:40)

• On the unkillable spirit of craft:
  “Craft will not die.” — Dan Lee (53:12)

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Key Timestamps for Revisiting

• 00:47–03:47: On messaging, style, process, and learning through iteration
• 06:02–07:27: The difference between passing interest and lasting obsession
• 10:00–16:00: Gaming as a metaphor for grit and the importance of meaningful struggle
• 17:35–24:59: Breaking out of the “rules,” the ‘starving artist’ myth, and the rescue power of mentors
• 33:22–35:11: Organic beginnings of “Dan Drawn Words” and the power of sharing work
• 39:40–40:23: Why “trend-hopping” isn’t sustainable—obsession wins
• 44:21–51:27: AI, process, and why the journey matters more than the shortcut
• 53:00–54:36: Final affirmations of the value of human craft

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Final Takeaways

• Obsession > Trends: Let deep personal fascination—not market trends—drive your design journey.
• Value the Process: The journey, iteration, and learning are more valuable than any shortcut to a result.
• Mentorship & Community Matter: Surrounding yourself with the right people—and being one for others—can be transformative.
• Human Craft Matters: No tool, AI or otherwise, can replace the intuition, judgment, and soul that real designers bring to their work.

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Find Dan Lee:
Instagram: @dandrawnwords
Portfolio: destinykid.com (54:00)

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Hosts: Massimo & Sean
Guest: Dan Lee (@dandrawnwords)

For more honest, unapologetic design talk, stay creative—and stay angry.

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

You're listening to the Angry Designer podcast, where we help frustrated graphic designers crush the industry chaos, ditch the social BS and build badass, rewarding careers that actually pay now. Powered by WIX Studio.

[Dan Lee]

I'm excited to be talking.

[Sean]

We are all branded fucking out.

[Dan Lee]

I know. Look at this shit.

[Massimo]

So Dan's pick up a shirt at the last event.

[Dan Lee]

Same cool shirt.

[Massimo]

I walked in with it today.

[Sean]

We watched him walk in, and we're like, damn, that guy as Paul.

[Massimo]

And you know what's ironic is, I mean, okay, this is just basic Helvetica. Left align. Nice, tightly cured. You're a lettering artist, so the fact that you're wearing this means we must have got. We must have our Helvetica, right? Okay.

[Dan Lee]

Oh, wow. Dude, it's all. It's all about the messaging, you know, and the. And the way that you get it across. And this is a beautiful way. And I look so, like, you know, lettering can be really fun for making people, like, stop and focus and be like, yo, that's really intricate. That's cool. And other times, you're kind of like, you should go for the thing where you get the slogan registered in people's minds in two seconds flat.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

So when do you know?

[Dan Lee]

That's what. I'm curious if you.

[Massimo]

Because, I mean, I do envy. Like, I mean, I've seen your shit, of course. Right. And then, you know, you know, we. We. We spoke with Martina Flor like, two months ago, and again.

[Dan Lee]

Oh, I love that one.

[Massimo]

Awesome stuff, right? And it's just like, when. When do you know what style suits?

[Dan Lee]

Yeah, dude, that's actually, like, one of my favorite questions. Cause it reminds me. I'm not gonna go on too long of a tangent. It reminds me of. I need to look at the name of this guy. There was a deviantart artist way back in the day who did an interview Deviant. And it just stuck with me that there was a question that he got where someone's like, how do you know when you're done? And he said, that's literally your job as an artist to decide that, because what you decide there is gonna be different from what another artist decides. And your ability to say, you know, this is where my taste tells me the job is finished. This is where the. You know, you have paintings that are realistic as hell. You have impressionist paintings. And both of them, the artist was like, this captures what I'm trying to communicate through this. This is my vision. And so very similarly, for me, I think with lettering, I have to let it like, percolate. I have to. Sometimes there's some that you start, you have a vision, you take it all the way, and you're like, this is it.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

There are others that I've definitely restarted maybe, like, five times, because I'm like, this needs. It's just. It got really far.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

But it's not doing what it needs to. And I couldn't have known that until I did it. You know what I mean? So it's never a wasted time either. But it's like. It's so funny to me how some just refuse to be finished until you've, like, drafted your fifth time, and then you're like, oh, here it is. Yeah, this is what I've been searching for.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

I. Maybe there's a world in which I started down this path and got it, but even this winding path, like, it still got me where it needed to go.

[Sean]

Yeah. And that's okay. Like, that. That kind of. Whether you have to restart.

[Dan Lee]

Yeah.

[Sean]

1, 2, 3, 4 times can be scary. It's scary. Yeah. But you're not like. Yeah, banging shit up.

[Dan Lee]

Yeah. And you kind of like. I think the. The superpower as a designer and artist is to, like, start and stop and start over and, like, make those kind of, like, your workouts. You know, it's like. It's like going to the gym and getting sore. You're curling, like, ten pounds when you first start, and you're like, oh, man, I'm feeling that. But then after a while, you're doing, like, £50. No big deal. And I think it's very similar. Like, you just get into the habit of, okay, starting over is not failing, or even if it is failing, it's failing toward.

[Massimo]

Towards another goal forward. I hate the term so. Abuse.

[Dan Lee]

I know, right?

[Massimo]

But it's legit, though, because, I mean, you can. Otherwise. I mean, to me, a fail is only a failure if you don't learn anything from it.

[Dan Lee]

Absolutely.

[Massimo]

If you learn. I mean.

[Dan Lee]

Yeah, Right. Like, you really do.

[Massimo]

Because, again, nobody ever gets everything the right way the first time.

[Dan Lee]

Correct.

[Massimo]

You get it by, you know, falling on your ass, getting up, trying it a second time, then you become that pro skateboarder or that pro artist or that.

[Dan Lee]

And if you see someone who gets that, like, hole in one right off the bat, that is the result of them doing all of those previous as well.

[Sean]

Exactly.

[Massimo]

I try to teach that to my kids, but it's hard, right? It is. Just because, again, they think that, you know, if it doesn't come to them right away, like, like everybody online makes it look like it's so freaking easy.

[Dan Lee]

That's one of the coolest things about life, I think. It's like you literally can only learn that by experience. Even though everyone who's experienced it is like, don't make the mistakes. I did. Like, learn from me when I tell you. And you're like, okay, cool. I'm like, I remember being 15 and being like, I remember this distinct thought. I think God is just humbling me for the rest of my life. I remember being 15 and thinking, like, I probably know everything I need to in life and anything that I don't, I can just look up and. Yeah. Any 15 year olds out there, maybe you're just. Maybe we're just doomed to think that, you know, at some point in our lives. But.

[Massimo]

Well, you know what? And it's funny, I so my. I have a daughter, many daughters. But you know, the one in particular, she's got this thing where it's like, if she wants to learn something, right, she'll keep at it and keep it like that. She wanted to learn how to skateboard. She wanted to prove to herself she could skateboard. But her idea of skateboarding, we went out on an afternoon, she fell one, two, three times, and then she finally got to coast. Soon as she got to coast, she's like, all right, I'm done, I'm good. And she's like, I'm done. I can skateboard. She did that with the piano.

[Dan Lee]

She's like. So she's.

[Massimo]

She just does it to get to point where she proves that she can do it.

[Dan Lee]

And then.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

So again, 15 year olds who know everything, right.

[Dan Lee]

And maybe for some people, like, that's the amount of the particular skill that they need in life.

[Massimo]

And then, yeah, I will.

[Dan Lee]

I do think, like when you have the passion behind something of more than just like conquering it as a skill, you're not going to be able to stop doing it.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Dan Lee]

You know, like the obsession is just going to take over.

[Sean]

It borderlines on obsession.

[Dan Lee]

Absolutely.

[Sean]

Just like, I have to do this.

[Dan Lee]

Yeah. I was talking with like, Josh Noom, conference buddy, about just how finding your style is just so much about finding the thing that you lose time doing and you enjoy it. Like, you're just like, you know, all the minutiae that would drive somebody else absolutely insane for you. It's bringing you to that piece, that flow state. You want to keep tweaking and like changing and creating and growing it and anyone else looking in on it, it's gonna be Like, I could never do that. And it's true they couldn't. Because their obsession is a different thing.

[Sean]

Is a different thing altogether. Yeah.

[Massimo]

How do you. How do you think, though? Because some of us found it easily.

[Dan Lee]

Right? Yeah.

[Massimo]

This is all I've ever wanted to do. I found it young and it's like, you know, 40 years later, I'm still doing the same thing I always wanted to do. Others, you know, I know people that are in their 50s, they still haven't found their passion thing.

[Dan Lee]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Like, how do we find this? I mean, how do people tap into that? Or do you think we're just predisposition, some people not to find anything? They just kind of mellow through life.

[Dan Lee]

Oh, man, that's a deep question.

[Massimo]

Because, again, the three of us are clearly passionate about this.

[Dan Lee]

We're so lucky to have that for sure.

[Sean]

Right.

[Dan Lee]

You know, I mean, I think, honestly, I think some people don't have the opportunity to find out. And like, I. I don't know if there are, like a bunch of. Or like, how to. How to resource it to give people that opportunity. It would be really nice to. I think that's the blessing that we've had in some way to, like, have that clarity or allow ourselves to just be like, man, I have to do this.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

And so I'm going to make it happen no matter what and fight for it. I think there's some people who like it. Just like, life is tough, and I think it can pull people into. With the messages of, like, you just have to survive.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

And it kind of breaks my heart because it's like, if we could allow people to have the space, can we build a world where more people have the space at any age to take that step back and be like, what are you truly passionate about? There's probably something. Right. And so I think there's a compassion that I feel for people who can't find that because they're distracted by just what everyone else tells them they need to do or what they've convinced themselves they need to. It's like getting them to things like this or pulling them into a coffee shop conversation. Conversation. Somebody in their life just needs to go and be like, hey, put everything aside. Just like, strip it away.

[Sean]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

What sets your heart on fire? There's something like, it's gotta be.

[Massimo]

I mean, I. I can't. There's gotta be. Everybody's gotta find this. But you're right. Maybe some people have gotten through so much.

[Dan Lee]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

That's just fogging it. That's blocking it. That's almost inhibiting them to get to that next level.

[Dan Lee]

Right. And maybe there are also some who are just like, you know, I survived something awful and I'm just happy to be alive.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

You know?

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

But I do think, like, as designers, as creatives, I feel like we have this almost like, responsibility to find our people, find the designers, find the people who want to be designers and be like, you can join the club.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

Here's the resources. Like, embrace that about yourself. There's not a gatekeeping thing here. We want everyone because there's room for everyone's creative voice.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

Okay.

[Massimo]

So if we're talking about passion, I've got a daughter who's clearly passionate about art, and that's what she wants to do and she wants to pursue it and she's passionate about it, and she's. She'll just go up in a room. I know, right? So that's crazy. And then I got a son who claims he's passionate about gaming because he can fucking do that for 24 hours a day, as well as YouTube.

[Dan Lee]

So I have a PS5. I understand if he's playing Elden Ring, like, especially. Oh, my gosh.

[Massimo]

How can they distinguish? And can they. Because I don't think, like, I mean, he's almost bordering away passion, Obsession.

[Dan Lee]

Sure.

[Massimo]

I don't know. You know. And you don't want to tell them no, because some kids clearly become video game pros and they make a living.

[Dan Lee]

Right, Right.

[Massimo]

You know, and game and game designers and stuff.

[Dan Lee]

For sure.

[Massimo]

Some people just kind of fall into a trap where they become. It's almost addiction. It's not passion.

[Dan Lee]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Addiction. So how do we tell the difference?

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

I mean, clearly one is an addiction in our sense.

[Dan Lee]

Sure.

[Massimo]

But another way, it could be a rabbit hole. A bad rabbit hole.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

I feel like there are times when, like, we just like things and we don't really know why. Yes. And it helps to have somebody in your life who can ask that, like, layered why question. Like, okay, you're clearly into this. Let me approach you with, like, the kind of curiosity to unpack, like, what is it that drives you or, like, brings you back to this all the time? And then there's that first answer, like, oh, I really love it, or it makes me feel good. Okay. Why does it make you feel good? And I think I feel like with gaming, just from my experience, when I get into, like, I'm sort of a seasonal gamer and a late stage gamer. I got my first console, like, at the ripe age of like, 31.

[Sean]

No shit.

[Dan Lee]

Yeah. I'm like, huh. I think I've got some room in my life for this debatable. Figure that out. But it's been a great source of joy for me in a lot of ways. And then it's. It's made me try to, like, pull back and think, like, why is this so good? Why do I like it? Why do I. What gets me into the sense of wanting to, like, binge play a game for a certain amount of time. And I think there's a world of reasons for it in terms of, you know, storytelling.

[Sean]

Right.

[Dan Lee]

If we go to the craft of the people who put it together.

[Sean]

Right.

[Dan Lee]

They're creating immersive worlds. They're trying to create an experience for people. And most of the time they're trying. They're using it as, like, a vehicle for a narrative.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

For some worldview, for some, like, analogy of how they understand the world and they want to pull people into it. And sure, there's, like, a bottom line. We gotta sell this because, you know, people still.

[Massimo]

Capitalist society. Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

But I think. I think it's such a good starting point if people who are into the games are willing to, like, take that step back and consider. There's some amazing YouTube clips that I've seen. Like, I got into Elden Ring. Are you guys familiar with the game? Yeah, absolutely.

[Massimo]

Everybody.

[Dan Lee]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Hardest thing, but arguably one of the most beautiful games out there.

[Dan Lee]

Yes.

[Massimo]

It's just phenomenal.

[Dan Lee]

Gorgeous artwork, and it just goes forever. Yeah.

[Massimo]

You could just play for too long.

[Dan Lee]

You do. You could start over. You could. All the different ways and. But there are some gorgeous YouTube clips that I found from people saying, like, how Elden Ring saved my life. Oh, I'm like, okay, all right, let's see how this works. And one of the things they talked about was the nature of the storytelling, the nature of it being so difficult where it doesn't hold your hand. One of the first things that happensspoilers is you go up against a boss, there is no way, unless you're, like, an elite player, so no way can defeat. And you start with a failure. And it's very difficult to figure out how to stay alive and how to skill up. But because of the difficulty, the victories that you achieve in game have the opportunity to make you feel like very strongly, like you've accomplished something. More so than a lot of other games that are easier. It's like, oh, here's the marker. Oh, here. The guy's just gonna stand there until you hit him, right?

[Sean]

Exactly.

[Dan Lee]

And I think what the YouTuber was saying was, in a time when he was feeling the lack of ability to control things in his life and as he failed over and over in this game, but it kept him going and growing and then ultimately achieving victories over these impossible bosses by the nature of incremental skills, he felt the sense of, like, this is possible in my real life.

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Dan Lee]

As well. You know, like, it empowered him to be like, oh, it's hard. I can. I am falling. And this seems so insurmountable, but there are these incremental wins. The way that my life feels right now, I think there are parallels to this. And so I don't know if that's true for everyone.

[Massimo]

That is heavy. But I can see that getting the courage to accept failures.

[Dan Lee]

Exactly.

[Massimo]

And getting the courage to face it.

[Dan Lee]

Every time you learn a little bit more about how this boss moves, you learn a bit more about the skills and the dodges you can do. And then if you have that moment of clarity in your life to be like, oh, yeah, this addiction that I keep running up against, this problem that I keep having, actually, every time that I come up against it, I'm learning a little bit more about how I deal. What I dodged wrong. I can get over this thing. I don't think that that's, like, I don't think that the games necessarily do that for everyone. Right. But I think that the fact that it gives people that sense of the control.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

I think that's one of the reasons that it's so powerful and so, like, it can. It can have that toxic side of making you want to remove yourself from the real world and just be in this world of, like, small victories and almost assured wins.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

But I think if you have one person, one video, a conversation or two that helps you connect the dots.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

Then it's a beautiful thing to be like, oh, my gosh. Yeah. These things that I love about this game are things that are actually feasible for me in real life. It's not just something I need to escape to. Yes. It's teaching me, like, oh, my brain is capable. My body is capable of my mind. I can figure this thing out.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

So that's been fun. Yeah. Right?

[Sean]

That's awesome.

[Dan Lee]

Oh, wow.

[Massimo]

And from this is how you became a hand letter.

[Sean]

Yes. Yes.

[Massimo]

Now we know the secret video game Elden Ring.

[Dan Lee]

That's what it is.

[Massimo]

And now a word from our sponsor.

[Podcast Host]

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[Massimo]

What kind of failures have you kind of come along to get to this point?

[Dan Lee]

Oh, dude.

[Massimo]

Because your stuff rocks. Wow. And this is going to fall forward.

[Sean]

Yeah, let's hope it doesn't.

[Dan Lee]

Maybe it'll rock us.

[Massimo]

Oh, there we go.

[Sean]

Okay, that's good. Go back.

[Dan Lee]

Engineering, dude. See, because it's not like you woke.

[Massimo]

Up and decided that you were gonna start doing this.

[Dan Lee]

Yeah, no, I, I didn't know lettering was like a thing. For a long time I thought it was just word art that you, I love just copying fonts from. As a kid, I wanna say, like, rather than a lot of specific failures, it was almost like a mindset of preemptive failure. Let's see, like thinking that there were this, this very clear set of rules for the world that you had to follow in order to get to the good stuff.

[Massimo]

Yep.

[Dan Lee]

Like, especially with, okay, if I want to be a designer, I want to make like T shirts and magazines, which I think as a kid, before I knew about design, that was the dream. Like logos and T shirts, just seeing your stuff on stuff. Yeah, right. But I thought for some reason and that probably, like I could probably unpack that with my therapist or something. These are the reasons why in your upbringing you thought this. I was so certain that you just had to do things a certain way and you had to find the right people who could give you the permission and then open the doors, and you had to play by all the rules, and then you got to achieve that. And early on, I hit that. I think the point that a lot of young artists hit of people giving you good advice of, it's really cool that you're into that, but you need, like, a profession that will support your passion. Right. Angry designer.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

That.

[Sean]

Everybody's heard that.

[Dan Lee]

Right. And it's money on this, dear. Exactly. The starving artist. Yeah. Those two words enter your vocabulary very early. Yeah. I was like, that's really nice. And it's funny because you're so validated on the one hand, growing up, when people, like, see the passion you put into artwork, because people, like you see the reaction that it brings you, people admire it, people praise you, and at the same time, they're just kind of like, there's no way you're gonna make a living doing this. Come on, bro. It's so true. And so you're living in this dichotomy of, all right, I guess I gotta go do the right thing so that I can keep doing this fun little thing, this little hobby. And to be clear, I think there are some people who maybe are called to other professions and for whom maybe doing art, doing design could just be a hobby for that. But I think it would be a mistake, preaching to the choir to assume that that's all it's ever going to be. Right. Because we're proof of it.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

This conference, every single person here is proof of that. Yeah, you're right.

[Dan Lee]

Like, the value. Even if it's like, most crass, capitalistic form, there's value to what we do.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

But all that to say, you know, growing up feeling like, okay, well, I guess this has got to just be, like, a nice little fun thing I do on the side. I got to find something that, you know, play by the rules, make the money so that I do get to have my little passion projects, because I know how much joy this brings me. So I don't want to lose it, so I better go get a job doing something else. And I think that really drove me, even as every other, like, thing I was doing in life was telling me kind of the opposite. Like, I was making flyers, I was making posters, Christmas plays, and T shirt contests, winning them as a kid. And you're just kind of like, okay, all right. And all the time thinking, I'm so glad that I'm gonna be able to do this on the side for the rest of my life all the way to going to college and being like, I'm gonna do an engineering degree. Because that's. Wait, what? Yeah. I have a master's degree in chemical engineering.

[Sean]

Get out of here.

[Dan Lee]

Favorite party fact.

[Massimo]

Oh, my God.

[Dan Lee]

Five years at Drexel University in Philadelphia. I graduated high school. And get this. I. I spent that summer working as a graphic designer for an engineering firm. But I was convinced, like, dirty secret. Yeah.

[Massimo]

You do the one. Wait, did you. Did you do the chemical engineering to appease your parents?

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

You know, that's a great question. There's, like, a degree to which. So I gotta give some context. In high school, I went to this, like, brick and mortar or cyber and mortar combination. My parents are very, like, experimental with our education. It was very fun. It was a cyber school that had a brick and mortar component. So we'd go in two, three times a week. It was called University Scholars. Best English teacher in the world, Megan Zyders. Shout out to every time I can.

[Massimo]

Very nice.

[Dan Lee]

She.

[Massimo]

Oh, we got. We got a little.

[Sean]

Dang.

[Dan Lee]

That was unexpected.

[Massimo]

That's good, though. Thank you, Megan.

[Sean]

Yeah, that's awesome. Take your time. Take your time. Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

Having. Having the right teachers in your life, it makes. It does. It does.

[Massimo]

Big time.

[Dan Lee]

It does.

[Massimo]

It does both one way and another. And right now, I. I've had that teacher that you're talking about.

[Sean]

So have I.

[Dan Lee]

It goes beyond just the. All right, we're going to read the Great Gatsby. What are the themes you guys found?

[Sean]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

And I. I think part of the reason I'm getting emotional is in the middle of some of the darkest times that I had.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

In finishing out the college stuff, and I'm jumping all over. I'll make it all. That's okay.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

I. Okay. She empowered me to feel like writing was just this beautiful thing worth doing.

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Dan Lee]

I found myself in a place of, like, really unexpected depression senior year of college. And the main reason I think I survived literally, was writing about it, posting it online, and getting, like, a flood of friends. It was like, kind of like the best possible scenario of social media.

[Sean]

Right. Okay.

[Dan Lee]

People, like, reaching out, literally calling. And she was. Oh, guys, no, that's cool, man.

[Massimo]

This is good.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Massimo]

This is great. We won't charge you for this.

[Dan Lee]

Thanks. Seriously. That's what we're doing right now. She called me. She told me it's okay to feel sad. Don't feel like you should not feel sad. And I think I knew it was cool at the time, but every time I Think back to that. It's even cooler to think it's my teacher. It's from high school. It's been years after. She already did so much for me. And now here she is reaching out with just this timely thing. You know, it's one thing to have a lot of people say like, hey man, I'm here for you. You know, let me know what you need. And to feel really comforted by that. It's another to have somebody tell you almost for the first time that you've heard it in your life. What you're feeling is valid to feel and you do not need to change that.

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Dan Lee]

To like fulfill some kind of like obligation, to be a happy person and to be content and you know all those things.

[Sean]

Right.

[Dan Lee]

And I mean, I think that saved my life. Wow. But I was talking about, we're talking about like my parents. She gave us school.

[Massimo]

Summer interning as a graphic designer while you're at a chemical engineer.

[Sean]

Chemical engineering degree.

[Dan Lee]

Yeah. Let's make myself cry for no reason. I wasn't even like, we didn't have to go there. Yes. While we're doing live. She gave us. She in that school, gave us an incredible liberal arts background. I think me and all my siblings ended up getting like English awards or something in high school just because she was so inspiring. We were inspired. We loved doing it. And so I did drama club mock trial. She helped oversee a lot of that. It gave me this background of pursuing things that I was afraid of all that to say. The parents were like, cool guys. You guys had a fantastic liberal arts, like high school experience. We're not telling you what you need to do in college, but if you want to go to college and you should, because it's like 2008 and everyone does that, we would encourage you to do something technical, get that well rounded education, and then do whatever you want. You know, in life, just use the time where you're in school. In both high school and secondary education, get as well rounded as you can and then figure out with that set of skills. Go for it. Yes. And so I look back and I'm like, dude, why did you pick something like architecture or something hard instead? I think I spun the wheel on science topics and stuck engineering at the end of it. Chemical engineering. I can live with that.

[Sean]

That sounds good.

[Dan Lee]

Let's try that. Chemical engineering. I do not recommend that for graphic designers because my head would explode, man.

[Massimo]

The closest would make my head explode.

[Dan Lee]

It's very cool. It's a very cool thing. It's very Concerned with taking chemistry and then being like, okay, but what if we did it for $500 million companies? What happens when you scale up the scientific processes that work in a lab? And then you're like, all right, but how do we do this for pharmaceuticals, for oil, petroleum, for. What else? Beer. It's a big one.

[Sean]

Yes. Wow.

[Dan Lee]

So all that to say, they didn't make me do it. They encouraged us to go do technical. All my siblings end up doing engineering. We all picked different ones. Yeah, I. I like. The main reason I'm glad I picked chemical engineering was because it was so far away from art and design that I had to, like, Brought me to a point in life where I was like, I just gotta pick between the two. Because imagine if I was doing something a little closer. Maybe I'd be like, well, this is sort of scratching that edge. I'll kind of stay there. I'll just be content with this. I'm doing the right thing. I'll draw on the weekend. Where was that?

[Massimo]

Where was that? That epiphany then? Was it when you were interning as a graphic designer at a engineer? Like, how did this happen?

[Sean]

You're working your ass off here, you're doing a degree, and then you're a graphic designer on the side.

[Dan Lee]

Right. I was getting little freelance things. I was. The organizations I was working with, I was doing graphic design. I'm like. Because again, I thought, this is how I'm going to make myself happy.

[Sean]

Right.

[Dan Lee]

When I have to do my nine years.

[Sean]

When you're doing your regular job.

[Dan Lee]

But I think it was. The funny thing is it was after graduation. It was in the process of applying for my first job, which was for, like, a Sam Adams brewery in Allentown, Pennsylvania. And we're not even talking, like, the interview. We're talking like, a recruiter who is reaching out to me for the first phase. And we talk on the phone a bit. I send the resume. He says he's going to be getting back in touch in, like, 12 hours or something. Those are the worst 12 hours of my life. Well, not the worst, but, you know, like, it was the first time I think I'd ever felt, like, a physical panic attack. Yes. And I'm like, what is going on with my body? Like, I had the language for it later, but at the time, it was just like. It was just nothing I'd ever experienced before. And I'm like, I feel like this is about the job and not doing it. Like, that's all I could figure is, like, I think this is Just like.

[Massimo]

You'Re thinking, not, am I gonna get the job? You're thinking, what if I actually get the job?

[Dan Lee]

What am I signing up for? Like, I had had the thoughts, you know, all through college. I'd stuck it out and it was here. It was almost like that was the crossroads for my mind and body to just be like, hey, stop. You know, wow. And so I called this guy back. I'm like, hey, man, so sorry we went this far. You can take me out of consideration. I can't do this. And then I remember going to my parents and being like, here's the deal. This is the most millennial thing you've ever heard of. I need a gap year. I just want to see if I can do this. I want to see if I can get into graphic design. And again, remember, my fatal flaw, even to this point was thinking I had to do things by the rules. So the thing that terrified me more than not doing the chemical engineering thing was the fact that I didn't have a graphic design degree. And I'm like, I don't know how I'm going to do this without that. It. But I have to somehow, like, I'm just like, oh, shoot, well, I can't do that. So now I have to do this. I'm stuck between two impossible things.

[Massimo]

Awesome.

[Dan Lee]

And so it really helped to. I think that was the first cracks in the foundation. And then I think, yeah, from that moment, I'm like, let me live at home for a year. I promise I will work my ass off to just find a way into this industry. And. And they're like, oh, yeah, that's cool. They're very chill about it.

[Sean]

That's awesome.

[Massimo]

Wow, you are so lucky.

[Dan Lee]

I'm so blessed. Although one of my favorite stories to tell, especially to rag on my mom about, was like, one day she came in and I was in the middle of a project for, I think the YouTube streamys or something. And we were doing these hand drawn letters of congratulation to every nominee. So I'm drawing for like 24 hours straight, I think, because it was a rush job, naturally, of course. And she's like, you're just drawing all day, aren't you? That's what I. That's what I said I was going to do. We laugh about that. And also, like, I feel it's only fair to point out she would, like, bring my meals up to me while I was doing that. I'm like, okay, you have redemption. But I still remember, like, you just drawing all day, huh?

[Massimo]

Aren't you gonna work?

[Dan Lee]

That's kind of the thing, Mom. No. And they've been so, so supportive.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

Of it since. And yeah. I love them.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

So did you, did you. Because that's early on. Did you just get lettering right from the start? That was, that was your angle. That was your in. That was. That was the part that interested me.

[Dan Lee]

You know, it wasn't at the time. That's the. I think the funniest thing about it was I was convinced I needed to learn the logos and the layouts and all of those. And lettering just felt like something you had to do as part of that for me. And I loved ever since I was little, like in first grade, my teacher told my parents, like, your son is a little printer. And I remember thinking like, oh, we just get to draw all day. And we're doing the penmanship stuff. Dude, that's my favorite. We're just drawing letters. So I wanted to make sure they looked really good. And so it ended up looking really good at handwriting and. And I think that that sensibility just was, for some reason, like, engaged from the get go. Even before I knew that could be like a thing. Yeah, yeah. So I would do a lot of hand lettered stuff and I think it was helping me stand out early on, but I never really attributed it to that or knew about like lettering community or even knew the word lettering for the longest time.

[Sean]

Wow.

[Dan Lee]

So it was nice to kind of organically come by it.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

And I think what helped was one of the first things, one of the best instincts that I had after college was wanting to just start sharing stuff online. I'm like, I think this is the way. Because we've got Instagram. It was still fairly new. Ish. I think we're still putting those filters on everything.

[Sean]

Right, right, right.

[Dan Lee]

You can post it without a filter now you can't. But I remember thinking, like, I just, I should come up with a project, like some kind of project that'll keep me going, keep me interested, and give me something to post pretty regularly. There were these amazing murals when I was living in Philadelphia during my college experience. We had some internships. I would ride the subway. Steve Espo Powers New York based artist he had done a series throughout Philadelphia that were just like lettering murals. And I would pass them all the time and be so fascinated by the different styles he was using. And the fact that it's like, oh, it's just saying something. It's like saying it in a way that makes me want to read it.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

I'm like, that's kind of what I've always liked to do. I should just do a. I'm going to get a notebook. I'm going to make each spread, like, a poster of word art, and just post that to my Instagram. And that was even before I was thinking, this will get business people interested. I think I was just like, I need to do this for fun. And then, God bless. One of my friends who remain unnamed told me one day, like, hey, Dan, like, we love that you're posting your art on your Instagram, but, like, we follow you for, like, your photos, so maybe you should, like, come up with a different account for that. I'm like, oh, I've been hashtagging them. Dandronwords. Dan Drawn. I'll start an account called Dan Drawn Words. I'll start posting them there.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

And that, long story short, that's where I. That's how it all happened.

[Massimo]

That's actually brilliant. What a great story.

[Dan Lee]

It's fun, right? It's like, organic. Like, the kind of thing you can step back and be like, here are three lessons you can learn from this. Like, personal projects and be inspired by things. But it just happens so organically because I just wanted so badly to make it.

[Massimo]

But you clearly had this at a young age. Like, you were clearly so. So at a really young age, I was drawing ads. Not lot. Like, I know, dude.

[Dan Lee]

That is.

[Massimo]

I did it.

[Dan Lee]

I didn't just if, like, it's a marketer's dream child.

[Massimo]

Honestly, dude, it's like, I couldn't. I wasn't just drawing a snowboarder. He had to be a snowboarder in an ad with a headline with this, like, right from a young age. Okay, seriously, I couldn't just draw GI Joe figures my own. I had to draw them on cards with stats and this. So it was always something at a. I know. It was weird. And this was even before I knew this is what it was.

[Dan Lee]

Your destiny written.

[Massimo]

Well, I mean, you were practicing. Your teacher referred to you as a little printer.

[Dan Lee]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Yeah. That's pretty awesome, right?

[Dan Lee]

Like, the seeds are there.

[Massimo]

It's interesting because I think if people could tap in to what interested them as a kid.

[Dan Lee]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Excited, right?

[Dan Lee]

Little art kids.

[Massimo]

Honestly, I bet you you could probably extrapolate a lot of information from that that would make you. Because what happens is as we all get older, we all start clinging back to that when we. That made us happen when we were young. We're buying old toys, we're buying nostalgia, right? And it's that feeling that we got.

[Dan Lee]

Yes.

[Massimo]

Right. So I bet you if there's something there. Yeah, there is. There could be something here, because God knows, it's like the signs are there. Clearly the signs are there.

[Dan Lee]

Yeah. I think it goes back to what you were saying earlier about, you know, the people we don't know who seem to not know their passion or have one. They probably just need that conversation, too. It's like, as a kid, what did you just do against the odds that you just had to do with your time, the thing that you were just obsessed with, because there's something in that that's like a through line probably you should listen to for the rest of your life. Yeah, absolutely. If you can.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Yeah. I. What happens, though, is that people try to squash that at a young age.

[Dan Lee]

Oh, for sure.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

Well, it's the right thing to do.

[Sean]

Yeah. Right.

[Massimo]

Of course. Who the hell wants to draw for a.

[Dan Lee]

Have a profession?

[Sean]

You can't make any money at this.

[Massimo]

Chemical engineering people.

[Sean]

That's right.

[Massimo]

Engineering.

[Dan Lee]

I am so grateful that we have people in the world who are passionate about chemical engineering.

[Sean]

Yeah. We're not going to slight them at all. Good. God bless them, guys. Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

It's all, I think, so fondly of my classmates. Yeah, you guys rock. And the best part is, like, I'll post on Facebook and stuff, and I'm still friends with a lot of them, and it's been so fun for them, I think, too, to see. Like, we remember, you know, I talked about this at Creative South. Like, the. The funniest, like, you are doomed to be a graphic designer moment was I drew in finals season, we had this running joke about what would all our professors be if they were superheroes? Because, like, Avengers was in the Zeitgeist at the time. And I was just like, I'm gonna draw this. I'm gonna make a T shirt of this. Somehow we're all gonna wear it. And we did. We did. Love Cool. Like a print on Demand drew all the professors as the individual superheroes that we talked about at lunches to be like, yeah, this guy would be this superpower. She would be this. And we got, like, most of the class to buy the shirt to wear to our, like, goodbye party. And, like, some people even got them for the professors. That's cool. Boy.

[Massimo]

Imagine the professor getting that. Yeah, great.

[Dan Lee]

That's pretty cool, right? It's like.

[Massimo]

Or as a chemical engineer, they might be insulting.

[Sean]

What is.

[Dan Lee]

What is this? If you look like. Like, if you have a student who draws you, like Captain America.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

I think that's kind of.

[Sean]

I think that's pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah, totally.

[Dan Lee]

Make the musculature a little larger.

[Sean]

Yeah, Yeah, a little. A little bigger pecs there.

[Massimo]

So what's the future of type look like, in your opinion?

[Dan Lee]

Oh, just in general.

[Massimo]

Well, I mean, okay, obviously there's a lot of talk about everything right now. I don't want to keep bringing it up, but everybody's always curious, you know? And then between that. Between. I have heard more about hand lettering artists in the past year than I think I have in my entire career.

[Dan Lee]

Right.

[Massimo]

Because all of a sudden.

[Sean]

Yeah, it is.

[Massimo]

It's just. It's the hot thing. Right.

[Dan Lee]

I get it.

[Massimo]

You know, you guys have been doing for a little while, but now it's just. It's coming out of the woodwork. So I'm curious, in your opinion, what. What does the future look like?

[Dan Lee]

I think the trends are gonna come and go like they always have, and the people who come out on top are the ones who stick with it and, like, know that it's something that they. That obsession. Like, if you have the obsession with it, you are gonna do it long past its trendiness.

[Sean]

Right? Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

And I think ultimately having that basis for it is going to, like, sustain you. If you are, like, if you're really into lettering and you know that it's not just like, I feel like I should be into lettering, then I think you're gonna be okay. That's. That's how I feel deep down. And if you're not, like, don't stress it. Like, you know, if you want to just dabble, you want to have, like a good baseline. Yeah, I think that's cool.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

But find the thing that, you know, is going to endure past knowing that it's just very hot right now. I think I felt that way about, like, vector stuff. You know, I felt very early on like, oh, I gotta do like, the, you know, the Tad Carpenter style, the icons. And fortunately, I was just so much less obsessed with that than with the lettering.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

I'm like, well, okay, I should learn that, but I'm gonna do more of this. And that ended up being like, wait, no, I should probably just focus more on this.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah, fair.

[Massimo]

When I see lettering, when I see hot lettering, it seems to be really trend focused. It's like a style that's hot right now. And it. And then lettering artists jump on that. Is there. Is there classic. Always safe to go to. Like, I mean, okay, you know, when it comes to design and layout grid, Swiss modernism, I mean, this just kind.

[Dan Lee]

Of like there goes a flyer.

[Massimo]

As long as it's not a backdrop, it's. It seems like it's always like a safe area for people to go. Is there, is there something like that for Titan Brahm lettering?

[Dan Lee]

I think so. And I think that the answer would be like really just stuttering. Stuttering. Studying letter forms, getting really into like the vocabulary of the history of type, where it's come from, what the different styles evoke.

[Sean]

Right.

[Dan Lee]

Getting into like. Well, maybe it's like zooming out and being like, lettering's not for every application, similar with every other like design element. Right. So if you're into it.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

What are you understanding about how it works in what contexts? So maybe the answer from that Thinking aloud context, if you understand the context of lettering really well, like, does this evoke, like, if I'm trying to evoke a punk rock poster.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

I could go the route of finding like, what was the guy just now? Mike Kroll. Oh, where he's doing like hand scanned old type. Right?

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

How do I like, is this where a font will serve me? Hand scan type, hand lettering, some combination of the above collage style, Knowing where it belongs and how it's going to achieve the effect you're going for. I think if you pursue type that way, then I think you're gonna be all right.

[Massimo]

That's actually a really good idea. That makes so much sense because that's the exact advice we would give when people ask about design.

[Dan Lee]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Right, Zach, Good call.

[Dan Lee]

Yeah. Because I don't think you need to try to like force lettering into every application. I'm not going to be like, oh, if this poster needs to be typeset in Gill Sands, it needs to be typeset in Gil Sands.

[Sean]

You're gonna go for it.

[Dan Lee]

I'm not gonna try to be like, but you guys should really try this, like flourishy script lettering. As a designer, you have to have that instinct to be like, right, I love this, but this is what is right for the job. And I think if you apply that to lettering, then you end up, you know, I'm in a really happy spot right now where by just doing the kind of lettering that I really enjoy and posting that to Instagram, it helps clients who are looking for that with that kind of context. Like this book cover could use a hand letter treatment. This album cover, we want something that's more organic. Then they'll reach out to me and use my stuff as reference and I'll be like, cool. I'm not gonna have to try to sell you on. Like. But. But what if it was hand lettered, guys? Yeah.

[Sean]

You're not pounding on doors and shit like that.

[Dan Lee]

Exactly.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dan Lee]

You kind of let it, let it happen. Let it be what you like. Know what you like.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

Know what styles you kind of gravitate towards and show people you're capable of it.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

But don't try to fit like the lettering peg into the type face hole.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah, that works.

[Dan Lee]

Type face.

[Massimo]

It's like, don't. Don't use a hammer for every application, you know?

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

Better analogy.

[Massimo]

What's. Finish off with what's one thing that's pissing you off right now across the board? Design lettering. However you want to take this.

[Dan Lee]

People that's making angry. This will be very surprising. People using AI for final assets. Oh, I think in my mind, AI as a concept is for concepting.

[Sean]

Yes. Yep. Yes.

[Dan Lee]

Like it is. It's the. The nature of the language models when they're giving you written things are incentivized to make you feel as good as possible about it. Even if you're telling it to be like, now be really mean. Then they're like, I'll be mean. Could you want me to.

[Massimo]

So it's not all I'll be mean.

[Dan Lee]

Yeah, exactly. That's a great idea. As far as the same thing, just a little meaner. Let me know if you want to hear anything else in a more sarcastic tone. Like, it's giving us what we want in the moment. It's synthesizing big data. Like, that is the. That is the miracle of AI is that it's able to parse large data and average something out and maybe like, make you aware of things you hadn't seen or heard of before. But I just think as a, like, philosophically, as a tool, I don't think that it's capable of, like, it's not. It's capable of approximating really good final assets, but without the discretion to know what makes it a good final asset. Without the human element.

[Massimo]

You're right.

[Dan Lee]

The application of. Is this good enough? What pisses me off is I think it is training people out of that muscle. They are so overwhelmed by the miracle of it. Oh, shit. That they're not thinking about. I should learn whether or not this answer is the best way that I could say this. I should learn whether or not this logo generated by stolen data is actually going like, do I have the muscle to know? Will this fulfill the business obligations of the thing? Could there be a technique or skill that would make this Better. And it keeps people from the, I think, serendipity of the struggle. When you're in the middle of trying to make something happen, and then you make, like, a really fortunate accident, and you're like, wait a second, let me explore this. And it's something that resonates with audiences way more than you ever would have imagined.

[Massimo]

Yep.

[Sean]

Yep.

[Dan Lee]

You're not allowing yourself that by jumping straight to, like, give me a cat in art deco style with blue eyes, you know, like, it's amazing that it does that. It's very cool. It's a very cool party trick.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

But it lacks the foundation of the expertise to analyze whether or not this is doing the right. Right thing.

[Sean]

Well.

[Massimo]

And people are lo. By. By obsessing and going right to the end result. They're completely, like, you know, neglecting this. The whole idea of critical thinking.

[Dan Lee]

Right, right. This is.

[Massimo]

This is our advantage as designers. And they're using it more for confirmation bias than anything else. Right. They're like. Because I see people using AI this way, and they're like, well, what about this? Well, you're. You're basically. You're not asking it questions to, you know, jumping. You're jumping to, and then you're feeding into this machine.

[Dan Lee]

And it's sort of like a false sense of wonder that comes from the amazingness of. Did you see how fast that happens? Yes. Right. As though the speed, and it must be right.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

So my favorite analogy that I've, like, tried, I've been, like, wrestling with. How do I. How do I, like, talk about what I feel? One of the things that I think for creativity, especially in AI, is thinking about a marathon. If you're running a marathon, there are some great tools to help you run a marathon. Like the right running shorts, the right training that you do, the right shoes will make it less painful. The fuel that you use along the way. And your first marathon's gonna suck your next one. You learn what you need. And so I think of those as fonts and design tips and different softwares. They're like the different things that you use. Okay, I'm running this marathon. AI to me, a marathon's 26.2 miles. AI to me is jumping in a private jet and flying 26.2 miles and getting out and being like, I ran a marathon. It's like, no, no, here's the thing. You very efficiently travel 26.2 miles. Yes. Like, good for you, if that's what you're trying to do. But you can't sit there and Tell me that you ran a marathon by flying in that private jet.

[Sean]

Yep.

[Dan Lee]

And so, and it's like, and it begs the philosophical question, why did you want to cross the finish line so bad? Yes. Like, was it for the joy or the training or whatever, like human thing it is that compels us to run marathons in a world where you can drive 26 miles or fly 26 miles? Agreed. Like, it doesn't mean that getting across like flying a private jet is wrong. But why are you so compelled to want to be like, that was a marathon, guys.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

Really, you know, Brilliant.

[Massimo]

Dude, that's awesome.

[Sean]

That is a great analogy.

[Dan Lee]

Trying to suss it out because, you know, I don't, I know everyone's talking like, you don't want to get left behind. It's the new technology. Sure. It's capable of a great many things, A great many high fidelity things. Jessica Hish was doing some experiments that showed that its ability to do some of the stuttering styles is improving dramatically as well. And so I don't want it to be from a place of fear and just being like, oh no, it's going to take our jobs or it's going to devastate the economy. Maybe it does. But I think at a deeper level the question needs to be asked, what is the purpose of us doing things with that longer process? It's not just because we want to suffer. There's got to be something in that. And I think there's something truer. And that's a topic for a whole other thing. But that's a great whole other topic.

[Massimo]

But it ever so true.

[Dan Lee]

That's. That's my hot take.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Dan Lee]

So just to sum it all up, like, the thing that pisses me off is people wanting to sacrifice all of that. All that and being like, I don't need the journey, I don't need the expertise, I don't need the discretion. This will, like, if you're using AI like that, get out of here.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dan Lee]

Like, just ask yourself.

[Massimo]

It's so true. And again, people are jumping to the finish line without the purpose of doing it. And yeah, that actually is, is. Dan said the same thing this morning. Not the same analogy, but the exact same idea about people.

[Dan Lee]

Great dance. Think. How ironic.

[Massimo]

But it's, it's, you know, people are presenting final product done in that and it's like, well, that's fine, but what about the journey there for sure. And do we know if that was the right idea? Do we, can we validate that or are we Just now thinning out what we've always said, you know what, fine, it's now capable of maybe an end result. But people don't always just pay for the end result. They pay for the whole process. The journey to discover if that is the right end result. What's going to happen then all of a sudden we're going to be relying on clients. Do you tell us what the right answer is? God knows that doesn't work very well.

[Dan Lee]

Why do we even exist? Yeah. And that's not even getting into like the ethics and the environmental concerns of it.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

But yeah, yeah, that's a whole other.

[Sean]

Podcast that is a different topic.

[Dan Lee]

Bring it all together. We are definitely in an undeniable. Like it's gonna keep being a thing. But. Oh, what's his name? Felix Oliha at Creative south said something so great, like, even the. If the future is inevitable, it doesn't mean you have to surrender. You can like stand up, fight tooth.

[Sean]

And nail all the way through it. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

Whether that's like finding ways to stand up for artists rights, finding ways to find like environmental solutions and making sure that people are prioritizing discretion and expertise.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

The technology's here to stay. We get to still decide how it moves forward and affects our world.

[Massimo]

I guess my concern is just, if everybody else jumps on, are we going to be that person cackling in the corner, that person on the street corner being like, the end of the world is here and everybody's going by? It's. You know, I, I do think that there's going to be a crash at some point. I think it's going to be a realization, you know, on what it can and can't do. I think it's going to.

[Dan Lee]

Right.

[Massimo]

It fakes a lot of great stuff.

[Dan Lee]

It does.

[Massimo]

It fakes creativity, it fakes talent. It's not capable of it.

[Dan Lee]

It has the DNA of a trend. You know, it's a thing that it's just wonderful for a while just because it's new.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

But the thing, like we've had people painting portraits since the beginning of time and they still are.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

There are arenas for preserving craft.

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Dan Lee]

If you're like focused on that and you find, you know, the right strategies for making it work.

[Massimo]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dan Lee]

Craft will not die.

[Massimo]

No, exactly.

[Sean]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Massimo]

People support people.

[Sean]

Yeah, Right.

[Massimo]

And I think that's.

[Dan Lee]

That's right.

[Massimo]

You know, we can create machines that will do a hundred yard dash, 100 meter dash in five seconds, but Olympics, you know, everybody waits for that one. Hundred meter sprint. And they want to see people.

[Dan Lee]

There's something about that.

[Massimo]

And they cheer. So, yeah.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

This is great, dude.

[Dan Lee]

I'm glad we did this.

[Sean]

Wow, wow, wow, wow.

[Massimo]

This went on so many different circles.

[Dan Lee]

It did.

[Sean]

We went all over the place. Yeah. This. We could put this on the engineering podcast, because we can't. We covered that.

[Dan Lee]

The angry engineers.

[Massimo]

Dan, where. Where can people find you?

[Dan Lee]

Instagram. Dandron. Words. And destinykid.com Amazing.

[Sean]

I love, love, love that site.

[Dan Lee]

Oh, thank you, sir.

[Sean]

Look, when I met you at Creative South, I went right to your website, and I was like, this site is. Is you personified. It's just fun.

[Dan Lee]

I really tried.

[Sean]

Yeah, it's. It's just. I was going through it, and I'm just, like, laughing and going, this is great. I can't wait to talk to this guy.

[Dan Lee]

That's awesome, dude.

[Sean]

Right?

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Lee]

This is great. Thank you, sir.

[Massimo]

All right, everybody. I hope your mind was blown in this episode just like us. You know. You know where to find him. You know where to find us. And again, this is Angry designer live at CropCon in Austin. My name is Massimo.

[Sean]

My name is Sean.

[Massimo]

And you are?

[Dan Lee]

Dan Lee.

[Sean]

Stay creative and stay angry.