Logo Design Rules From Legends — 18 Irrefutable Laws That Turn Good Graphic Designers Into Great

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Logo Design Rules From Legends — 18 Irrefutable Laws That Turn Good Graphic Designers Into Great"

Release Date: May 6, 2025
Podcast: The Angry Designer – Graphic Design, Freelancing, Branding & Creative Business Podcast
Host: A seasoned Creative Director and former head of a 7-figure creative agency

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Angry Designer, the hosts delve deep into the art and science of logo design. Drawing inspiration from legendary designers like Paul Rand, Saul Bass, Alan Peters, and James Bernard, they outline 18 irrefutable laws that elevate a graphic designer from good to great. The conversation balances practical advice with insightful anecdotes, ensuring that both novice and veteran designers gain valuable takeaways.

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1. Research Relentlessly Before Designing [08:04]

“Good creative comes from data, not just like inspiration.” – A

The hosts emphasize the paramount importance of thorough research before embarking on any logo design project. Understanding the brand’s audience, competition, and context forms the backbone of effective design. Instead of diving straight into visual inspirations from platforms like Google or Behance, designers should immerse themselves in the brand's ethos and gather actionable insights.

Notable Quote: “Good design is intelligence made visible.” – Otto Acher [09:48]

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2. Understand the Brand Deeply [10:04]

“Don’t sketch a line until you know what you’re designing for.” – Paul Rand [11:22]

Beyond aesthetics, grasping the brand’s mission, values, and voice is crucial. Designers should internalize the brand's soul to create logos that resonate on a deeper level, ensuring the design aligns with the company’s purpose.

Notable Quote: “Don’t try to be original, just try to be good.” – Paul Rand [16:06]

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3. Respect Cultural Context [12:06]

“Design must reflect the culture and aspirations of its audience.” – Raymond Loewy [12:25]

A logo must be culturally relevant and empathetic to its intended audience. Misalignment with cultural nuances can hinder a logo’s memorability and effectiveness.

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4. Embrace Constraints [13:12]

“The more constraints one imposes, the more one frees himself.” – Massimo Vignelli [14:14]

Constraints, whether budgetary, temporal, or format-related, can fuel creativity. Limiting parameters often push designers to innovate within defined boundaries, leading to more refined and purposeful designs.

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5. Lead the Client with Confidence [15:28]

“You are the expert.” – A [15:35]

Designers should guide clients confidently, presenting solutions rather than mere options. This authoritative approach builds trust and underscores the designer’s expertise.

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6. Think First, Design Second [16:12]

“The computer is a tool, not a crutch.” – Alan Peters [17:44]

Prioritizing conceptual thinking over immediate digital execution ensures that ideas are solid before being translated into design, fostering more meaningful and intentional logos.

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7. Deliver Meaning, Not Metaphors [17:12]

“Make it unmistakably clear and then make it beautiful.” – Neville Brody [18:25]

Clarity in logo design surpasses cleverness. A logo should communicate its intended message instantly without necessitating elaborate explanations.

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8. Design for Memory, Not Just Meaning [19:11]

“A symbol should be easily remembered and easily recalled.” – Paul Rand [20:03]

Memorability is key. Logos should be distinct and easily recognizable, enabling quick recall and fostering brand recognition.

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9. Achieve Simplicity with Purpose [21:03]

“I want to make things simple but not simpler.” – Saul Bass [22:31]

Simplicity enhances a logo’s impact. Stripping away unnecessary elements ensures that the core message remains prominent and easily digestible.

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10. Design for Timelessness [22:41]

“If you do it right, it will last forever.” – Massimo Vignelli [23:32]

Avoiding fleeting trends ensures that logos remain relevant and effective over decades, rooted firmly in enduring design principles.

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11. Obsess Over Proportions [23:49]

“You feel it when it’s wrong, even if you don’t know why.” – Alan Peters [24:38]

Balanced proportions lead to visual harmony. Developing an intuitive sense for proportion is essential for creating aesthetically pleasing and functional logos.

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12. Master Typography [26:15]

“Type is a voice. Words are what you say, and type is how you say it.” – Martina Flor [27:48]

Typography is as vital as the logo mark itself. Customizing fonts to align with the brand’s identity ensures that the textual elements complement and enhance the overall design.

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13. Focus on Form, Not Frills [28:31]

“If you're adding stuff and you don't know why, that's your red flag.” – James Bernard [29:01]

Prioritizing the core shape of a logo over decorative elements ensures clarity and functionality, making the logo versatile across various mediums and scales.

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14. Test in Black and White [30:49]

“If it doesn’t work in black and white, it doesn’t work.” – James Bernard [31:07]

Ensuring that a logo maintains its integrity in monochrome verifies its strength and adaptability, reinforcing that color is an enhancement rather than a necessity.

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15. Prioritize Real-World Function over Fancy Mockups [31:44]

“A logo doesn’t live in a vacuum. It lives in the real world.” – Michael Beirut [32:34]

Logos should be tested in actual environments to ensure they function effectively across various applications, from storefronts to merchandise.

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16. Design with the Whole System in Mind [33:44]

“Designing a logo isn't just design, it's designing a system.” – Paula Sure [35:01]

A logo is part of a broader brand identity system. Considering how the logo integrates with other brand elements ensures consistency and cohesiveness across all platforms.

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17. Say More by Showing, Speak Less [35:44]

“What you leave out is just as important as what you put into a logo.” – Alan Fletcher [36:53]

Leaving room for interpretation engages the audience, allowing them to form personal connections and deeper associations with the brand.

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18. Be Brutal with Your Sketches [37:21]

“You have to get rid of the crap before you can find the core.” – David Carson [38:17]

Ruthlessly refining sketches ensures that only the strongest concepts progress, maintaining a high standard of quality and innovation.

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Conclusion

The episode culminates with reflections on the profound insights gained from engaging with industry legends. The hosts underscore that mastering these 18 laws not only enhances logo design skills but also fosters a mindset geared towards longevity, purpose, and excellence in the creative field. They encourage designers to adopt these principles to create impactful, timeless logos that resonate deeply with audiences.

Final Thoughts: “If you want to elevate your logo game, think like the legends do and create with longevity in mind.” – Hosts [40:27]

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Key Takeaways:

• Foundation in Research: Deeply understand the brand and its context before designing.
• Simplicity and Clarity: Prioritize clear, memorable designs over overly complex or trendy elements.
• Typography Matters: Ensure that textual components are customized and harmoniously integrated.
• Real-World Application: Test logos in actual use cases to validate their effectiveness.
• Systemic Thinking: Design logos as part of a larger brand identity system for consistency and scalability.

This episode serves as a masterclass in logo design, blending timeless wisdom with actionable strategies to empower designers to create logos that stand the test of time.

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For more insights and detailed discussions on graphic design, freelancing, branding, and building a creative business, subscribe to The Angry Designer Podcast and join a community of designers ready to take their careers to the next level.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. You're listening to the Angry Designer podcast, where we help frustrated graphic designers crush the industry.

[B]

Bull.

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And share what it takes to charge what you're worth and build badass, rewarding careers.

[B]

Cheers.

[A]

Cheers.

[B]

Salud. Okay, here we go.

[A]

We are trying.

[B]

We're gonna do a re.

[A]

So. Okay, so we don't have any bourbon. I miss bourbon. And. And I haven't found any new scotch that won't cost me a liver or a. That I want to try. It's freaking expensive.

[B]

It is. It's not.

[A]

So we're back to trying to experiment with some Canadian whiskey.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay, I'll give it a shot. Yeah, this is. So this is a special batch of JP Wisers. JP Wiser is general, like a pretty standard whiskey. You know, even you can almost say entry level, like water. But this is not. This is. This is. Okay, so this is a 15 year old, and they also have an 18 year old that's actually quite expensive. Oh, I don't understand why those three years cost like 20 bucks extra every year storage. But yeah, give this a shot. Because I read good things and I'm pretty sure.

[B]

All right, maybe.

[A]

I don't know. Let's get a shot.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Oh, that's actually really good. Whoa. I'm just gonna give myself a little more here.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

That was good.

[B]

That smells way worse than it tastes. Yeah, I went in when I first cracked that, I was just like, holy. I can see the paint coming off the walls, but that tastes really good.

[A]

Yeah, you know, no burn. It was a little bit of a surprise, wasn't it? Wow. Yeah. Guys, JP Weiser's 15 year old in the square bottle. The bottle's beautiful.

[B]

I will be. God damn. That's Canadian whiskey.

[A]

It's Canadian whiskey, dude. And it's. It's price point's good. Like Canadian wise. It's like 60 bucks. It's delicious.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

That'S pretty good.

[A]

Yes. I, I. You know what? That, that. It's not quite that bourbon. No Bourbon flavor like, like that Sleeman's one we had. But it's delicious.

[B]

Yeah.

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Nonetheless.

[B]

Yeah, it's pretty good. Holy shit.

[A]

Worth the extra bucks. That's for sure.

[B]

So what's that? 18 like.

[A]

Oh, shit. We should try. Okay.

[B]

Well, no, I mean, it's. It's probably crazy expensive.

[A]

Yeah, well, it's an extra 20 bucks a year, so do the math.

[B]

So, yeah, maybe we'll. There you go.

[A]

So we came back from where? Creatives. Yeah. And it was such a great time.

[B]

It was.

[A]

And you Know, I'm not gonna brag, but we, we kind of got to hang out with like, Alan Peters and James Bernard and Scott Fuller, like the whole time. Yeah, it's like, you know, you get little groups and, and, and just people kind of cling together and hang. Of course, there was other people that joined and left, but it seemed like the five of us of like, you know, okay, let's meet downstairs for drink before we go. Let's do this. It. It. It always kind of started with the beer, but.

[B]

Yeah. Wow. I. Since we, since we landed in Atlanta, we were. We were in James Bernard's company.

[A]

We actually caught him at the airport.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

How funny. I think we shocked the guy. And it's really tall. Really? Well, we're very short man.

[B]

And very handsome, too.

[A]

Yes, yes, James is handsome, but that was the point.

[B]

I hope he's listening, James.

[A]

But no, I mean, it was really cool. And then, and then the cool thing is, and it's like. So for us, it was just. They're. They're just really cool, down to earth people.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But at the events, they were like rock stars. Right. It was cool because everybody would, you know, like, they would swarm them and ask questions and talk about stuff. And obviously it was really logo related, but like, they're like, like logo rock stars. They are in that group. Right. And, you know, good for them. Right. Like, Alan Peters was the, the keynote speaker. James Fernanda was right before him.

[B]

Right before him.

[A]

So they were the last two speakers of the event. And I mean, and they're just good down to earth, guys. I give them credit.

[B]

Amazing, right?

[A]

Like, you know, you would give them a couple and they'd be like, no, no. And they, they didn't like that. But it was, it was just neat to see people so wrapped up. Because they're both specialized as logo designers.

[B]

Yes.

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That's their thing.

[B]

Yeah.

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They're not, you know, brand strategists. They. They don't even advertise that they do giant brand work, although I'm sure they can. But they were like, ye focused in on this and they came about it in different ways. They had their different approaches, but both are like, like rock stars.

[B]

Yeah, totally. Totally rock stars. Yeah. In fact, the. My wife, she doesn't understand graphic design, you know, so I have to explain it to her in musical terms. So I say James or Alan Peters is the Jimi Hendrix of graphic design, of logo design, and James Bernard is the Jimmy Page. Jimmy Page local design. And she's like, oh, okay, I totally get that. But everybody that we're listening to knows who these two guys are.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

But they are like that level of, of what we do.

[A]

And it's funny because. Okay. That whole event wasn't just a logo designed event, right?

[B]

No, no, no.

[A]

But I think everybody, whether you're a typographer, a hand, A hand lettering artist, whether you're a layout artist, brand, everybody can appreciate, Appreciate logo design because it just, it's, it's that one part of this industry that people can just look at and appreciate just as it is.

[B]

Yeah.

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They don't have to learn the strategy. They don't have. They can look at something and just get instant gratification. Like, you know, when they were both doing their presentations, they showed different versions of what they've done and you can hear the audience.

[B]

Aw.

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Like, because they got it and they, they got the fact that it was both beautiful, but it told a great story. Right. And again, it's, it's. You can tell the experience that these guys have in, in, in presenting this kind of stuff.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Just based on the appreciation regardless. Right. Because again, that whole crew was everything from web designers to. There were, they were like people who did apparel there, There were silk screeners. You know, again, it just. But everybody appreciated that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which I thought was really cool.

[B]

Yeah. You know, it's funny because Alan said something that was quite awesome and I think this is probably why we as designers love the logo. He's like, if you went into, into Home Depot and you did a 360, chances are you're going to see at least a dozen logos.

[A]

You're right.

[B]

So they're everywhere.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Right. And, and it's, and, but, but it's such a fine line to, to get that perfect.

[A]

To get.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Well, and that's, and that's why I wanted to do this episode because, you know, we've talked about logo design before. We've talked about, you know, rules to level your game up and this and that. Right. And how to start and, and you hear a lot of the same information out there. But I thought instead of like going at the bo, Right. I wanted to approach, you know, like these irrefutable laws, you know, of legendary logo designers. Not just, you know, like, you know, you know, Alan Peters and James Bernard, who are like living legends, in my opinion, but then even Paul Rand and Saul Bass. Right.

[B]

Digging deep.

[A]

Digging deep. But not just on the basic level, but this is, this is like that advanced. Okay. This advanced shit that, you know. Okay. You know, if you're starting Out. Of course you can appreciate this, but if you've been doing this for a long time, you understand. Understand this stuff. Yes. So I thought this, this would be a neat approach to just cover a lot of these. And again, our friends here even. Even quoted in here.

[B]

Yeah, Right.

[A]

So that's why I have created the 18 laws of legendary logo design. Okay. And this is. These are just. These are like 100 laws that come from logo legends past and present. Okay. And I think we can all agree that if you follow this, this will be on level up your game. This takes it to a whole new level.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. So like, for example, number one, before jumping into logo design research relentlessly, okay, We've talked about this in the past. That good creative, it doesn't just come from blind inspiration.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It comes from research. Okay. The more you know about, you know, like, the more you know about the audience. Right. The more you know about the competition. Right. The more you know about the context of what it is that, that you're creating. Right. Honestly, good creative comes from data, not just like inspiration. And this, this is where I think, you know, really separates a lot of the. The bigger legends of logo design versus a lot of the younger ones or the new ones. Because oftentimes people will start on a Google search. Yeah, right. And they'll just look at visuals. But I mean, that is so far down the road that you, you shouldn't even be thinking, you know, visuals at that point. You need to read. Because inspiration comes from insights that you start getting on. On all this information that you're taking in.

[B]

Yeah. And you know, a great story that Alan talked about in his thing was the city of Eagan logo. He lived there. He lived there, he lived that shit. How much closer to it can you get?

[A]

Everything about that was great. The people, the history. Right. And why the current mark was missing it. Missing the mark on all levels.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. So again, it's to your advantage. Okay. Before you start jumping into any sort of logo is go and do an exhaustive search. Find data to back up your opinions. You know, find these insights, these, these quirks. Go down those rabbit holes and surprise your customer. Okay, I got a quote here. Okay. From ot. Acher.

[B]

Ot.

[A]

Okay. I had to look German. He's German, right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. What did I say?

[A]

You almost sounded Scottish there.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I did.

[A]

But he said, good design is intelligence made visible. Ooh, right. Brilliant. I love that.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

So number two, okay. Before you design the logo, understand the brand. Okay? This is a huge mistake. Oftentimes, people, again, will go onto a Google search, they'll pick out logos, they'll. They'll go on to behance. And this is where they start their. This. Which is the worst place.

[B]

That's.

[A]

That's starting backwards. Okay, Honestly, before you do that, you need to start with the strategy, okay? You need to. The voice, the brand's purpose, right? There has to be a mission here that you're designing for, not just for aesthetics, right? You need to get inside the company's soul, find out about their values. Right? And you need to be able to live and breathe and understand what their purpose is before you can even get onto Google and do a search or Pinterest or whatever. If you even do that, which I think we all secretly do a little bit, but I mean, after the fact, not first. Okay, Right. So again, I think that that's a hu. Huge difference between legendary logo designers. Okay. Versus the ones who just start up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, that's a huge difference.

[B]

Fair assessment. I. I agree with that. 100.

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So a quote from our good old friend, Mr. Paul Rand. Don't sketch a line until you know what you're designing for.

[B]

Oh, that's awesome. Brilliant. Exactly what you said. Don't even. Don't even get the pen and paint paper out. Just do your research first.

[A]

Do your research. Find out the purpose, and find out about the br. That you have the support. I think that's brilliant, right?

[B]

Oh, that's great.

[A]

All right, now we're starting to move in the right direction here. Number three, while designing a logo, respect the cultural context. Okay? Oftentimes, cultural context is overlooked. Okay? And I always use the example. If you're. If you got a vegan restaurant, you don't want your mascot to be a chicken, okay? You need to under. You need to design with empathy, and you need to understand the audience that your logo has to connect to.

[B]

Right?

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Okay. So again, this is where cultural context is, number one. It's primary. And people overlook this all the time. Your logo needs to make sense in the world that it's going to live in. Otherwise, it's not going to be memorable.

[B]

Right?

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Okay. So very famous quote by Raymond Lowy.

[B]

Raymond Loewy.

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Design must reflect the culture and aspirations of its audience. Okay? So ties in beautifully.

[B]

Right?

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Okay. With the audience. Okay? So remember, respect the cultural context that the logo is going to live in.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

Okay. Number four, while designing the logo, embrace constraints. We've talked about. We had a whole podcast episode based on the importance of constraints, and it is a Creative superpower, big time. Okay. It's something that. That people don't realize, but they excel when they're put underneath these limits. Okay. So again, constraints force you to be better creatively.

[B]

Yeah.

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Okay. You know, the worst thing you can tell a designer is just, hey, sky's the limit. Do whatever you want. You are the expert. This is the worst thing any designer could hear. True creativity is within the box. You can think outside the box, but within the brief.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And that's really important. So you have to take into consideration budget, timelines, the different formats. These aren't enemies of a graphic designer, and they're not enemies of a logo. They're actually fuel for the creativity. You know, Paul Rand used to implement his own constraints on the work he was doing, even Massimo Vignelli. And they didn't want an open field to do whatever they wanted. Okay. So again, Massimo Vignelli said, the more constraints one imposes, the more one frees himself. Okay, so think about that. The more you give yourself and work within, the more creative you can be. You will and can be within the parameters.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Right?

[B]

That's heavy.

[A]

That is heavy.

[B]

It seems counterintuitive, but I totally get that. Yeah. Having, you know, you lived that life, it's kind of exactly like you said. If you're going on a journey, you could go anywhere. Why not have a path? Why not have a direction? Right, Exactly. Yeah. This is kind of the same idea.

[A]

All right, Number five, during the logo design process, lead the client with confidence. Okay? So this is important. So again, remember, you are the expert. You're not an order taker, and you're not a pixel pusher. Okay. You need to present solutions to the customers, not options. So this is a key mistake that so many graphic designers do, and it takes years before you're confident on doing. And what I mean by this is you don't want to present them three options and be like, here you go. I wasn't sure which way you wanted to go. So I've given you three options. Let me know what you think. Okay. That's the worst way to present to anybody. Giving customers options is great, but you can't couch it like that. You have to. You have to be able to explain every option with reason. Right? Okay. And guidance.

[B]

This is why. Yeah.

[A]

This is why we're presenting this concept. This is why we're presenting. Let's discuss.

[B]

Yeah, okay.

[A]

Never put it back to them and be like, yeah, what do you think, Mr. Customer? And you're, like, secretly sweating. So, you know Again, you know, they hired you as the pro, okay. You are the expert. And that expert status is what we are constantly trying to attain. So be that expert.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So Paul Rand said, don't try to be original, just try to be good.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Right?

[B]

That's heavy.

[A]

That is another good one. Right?

[B]

Nice.

[A]

All right, number six.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

When creating a logo, think first and design second. Second, okay? So again, don't let the tools that you have, you know, access to lead the journey for you, okay? Don't let them lead the process. Ideas need to come first. Okay. If anything, you have to start thinking analog because good ideas, good logos, good layouts, they begin on paper, they begin in your mind. They begin in the shower when you're getting ready in the morning, or when you wake up at three in the morning from cold sweat going, oh, I know what to do. This is true. And oftentimes what happens is, again, people tend to have access to all these tools and they start jumping in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Way the hell too early on this one. Right. You need to make sure they're just tools.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so you want to start this process analog. You want to start in your mind. You want to start pen to paper. Right. And we've talked about this, you know, even here, oftentimes it's like, you know, I'll have a. I'll have something that's due in three weeks. It doesn't mean I'm going to start a week before it's due.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I'm already starting. You're doing mentally three weeks and I'm already keeping my eyes open. I'm already taking in all these new ideas that work with this idea. Right. I'm not quickly jumping into Illustrator and jumping into, you know, doing my searches and everything else to get ahead of the game. So. So again, think first, design second. Okay, nice. Alan Peters said, the computer is a tool, not a crutch. Okay? So think about this.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Think first, design second.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Number seven. A logo should deliver meaning, not metaphors. Oftentimes again, people try to get a little too clever with their logos. Okay? But when you look at some of the experts, logos, the logo legends, you know, or even some of the, the people that are killing it right now, they're designing logos that are clear, that are really understandable because clarity trumps this cleverness that everybody tries to attain. Okay? Strive for more clarity in the logo. You know, great logos, they communicate fast. They communicate loud, bold, in your face. You get it, Right. There isn't this whole explanation that you have to Try to, you know, get and understand before you understand and appreciate the logo. That's why people who even don't approve, who aren't logo designers, can appreciate a good logo.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because they get it.

[B]

They totally get it.

[A]

They get it.

[B]

Right, Exactly.

[A]

So again, Neville Brody said, make it unmistakably clear and then make it beautiful.

[B]

Oh, nice.

[A]

I love that one.

[B]

Yeah. Right.

[A]

And it's true. People worry too much about being clever and trying to do deeper meaning. Don't worry about that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Make it clear first, and then once you've got that idea, then you worry about making it beautiful.

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

Number eight, Design logos for memory, not just for meaning. Ah, okay. So here I just talked about the importance of meaning.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But that doesn't mean anything if they can't remember that logo. Right, right. So again, if it's not memorable, it's forgettable.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Regardless how good the meaning is that you did previously. Like, the best logos. Okay. Are burned into your memory the first time people see them. Right, Right. It's. It's because, you know, after a single glance, if they. They get it. It's easy to recall because it's distinct. Okay. One thing people need to remember is recognition. Also beats cleverness. You see where I'm going with this?

[B]

Totally.

[A]

People tend to try to be overly clever with what they're doing, but they're missing out on some really big important parts. Right. And being able to easily recall a logo is more important than, again, being clever with the logo. So what? Paul Rand once again said a symbol should be easily remembered and easily recalled. I remember hearing this story that somebody said, and I was trying to find this quote, I couldn't remember, but they said a good logo should be like a child should be able to draw if they recall it. Okay. I know. And this is where you get some of the legendary ones out there. Right. Like the Nikes, the apples, even the Adidas. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The kids are like, yeah, three stripes. One, two, three. And it makes a triangle, this swoosh thing. Right. So. And. And again, this kind of goes back to the easily memorable. Okay, Right. All right. Number nine. When designing a logo, try to achieve simplicity with purpose. Okay. One single clear idea wins.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Oftentimes what happens is people try to, you know, layer in ideas and meanings and logos, and it becomes really difficult to try to recall that story, understand what it is you look at. If you look at the stuff, the early stuff from Paul Rand and Massimo Vignelli, one thing, and they knew what it was. You knew it was the plane on an airplane or the tailwind on an airplane. You looked at it, you saw it, you got it. You didn't have to. You didn't have to sit there and start thinking, oh, shit, you know, this is the company's future. And this is a. It's just. It's a. An easy to understand concept. Okay? So one idea executed clearly is worth, you know, 10 logos, you know, of substandard, of course. So what you got to do is you got to strip out the noise. Okay. And you got to create a good logo, not try to create a puzzle that people have to try to understand and put the. And put together.

[B]

Right? Absolutely. Yeah.

[A]

That's the challenge.

[B]

Yeah. If. If you. If you have to. If you have. Have 15 seconds to figure out a goddamn logo, then you're like, there's no way. You're more. You're right. It's more like a puzzle than anything else.

[A]

People won't give you that much, not even time and their focus. Right.

[B]

And it'll be gone.

[A]

It'll be gone. Absolutely right. So again, Saul Bass said this best. He said, I want to make things simple but not simpler. Okay, so. And again, it was just easy to understand. But don't make it like.

[B]

No, yeah, exactly.

[A]

All right, number 10. I think you've all heard us go on about this one, but this is something that all logo legends kind of follow design logos for timelessness.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Not trends.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. So again, you want to build something for long lasting impact. Okay. Not for these buzzwords, not for what's hot right now. Right. Because again, that's the wrong. That's the wrong way to approach this logo legends have built logos that last for decades. Like Saul Bass's average logo was two, three decades old. It would last and it would keep going. It's freaking crazy. And the reason is they focused on good design fundamentals. They didn't worry about what was fads, and they didn't worry about what was trending right now. They made sure that their logos that they designed would last. And because they weren't. They weren't hinging on anything else other than good design.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Massimo Vignelli said, if you do. If you do it right, it will last forever.

[B]

Brilliant.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's so true.

[B]

Yeah, that is true.

[A]

Number 11, when designing logos, obsess over proportions. Okay? So good balance equals visual harmony.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Okay. Oftentimes you see on the Internet, people trying to give you formulas. Quick, quick, guys, do this. Yeah, do this. You want to line up your logo On a vertical format, three of these, three of these high, two of these wide. That's okay. When it comes to starting out and trying to get your bearings and understand how it all works.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But the reality is, you know, there's no secret formula to proportions because there's so many variations.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You have to start, you know, getting an eye for this. You have to start being able to trust your gut on what, you know, the visual hierarchy, proportions are right this way. It's like when you look at it, it looks balanced.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. And that's. That's the key. Good balance equals visual harmony.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay, so this quote I have from our buddy Alan Peter.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I remember this.

[A]

You feel it when it's wrong, even if you don't know why. And that's so true.

[B]

Yes, absolutely.

[A]

When we talked about the people who saw the logos on. On stage at the event that we were just at, they loved what they saw because it was beautifully executed. It was well designed. The proportions were good. They weren't off balance. They didn't have a huge mark, small text. The text didn't overlap way too much. They just appreciated. And this is what people can appreciate when a mark is good. It's memorable and people can smile and appreciate it.

[B]

Y. And I like that gut instinct kind of thing.

[A]

It is so true.

[B]

I was, you know, I. I always kind of was embarrassed a little bit by that, like, trusting your gut. It's like after seeing all these videos of people actually literally doing this stuff, but it was just like, sometimes that just doesn't fit with what I'm doing. Right.

[A]

I hate to say this, not sometimes, but almost all the times. I have never, ever been able to make. Make one of these silly, you know, do this 2x up, 1x left, stretch this to the right again. I get it. If you have no clue on how to do this, right, and you need.

[B]

To start somewhere, you don't have that gutting instinct built into you.

[A]

But, man, you need to work on that and you need to understand that you know, how. How those actual proportions work and how they work in your favor.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Oh, damn, that's great.

[B]

That's great. And Alan said that too. That's. That's very cool.

[A]

So true, right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Number 12. Okay. Master typography for logo design.

[B]

Jesus.

[A]

Okay. People don't understand this. They don't pay enough attention of this. Okay? You type is literally just as important as the mark. It can be just as important. Type can stand out and stand for a brand. Just like the mark itself can. Okay. The type accentuates the mark mark. It accentuates the brand. It doesn't take away from it. So resist to just drop in any font you want and just squish it and play, you know, tighten it and.

[B]

Mess around with it. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

No, no, no. You need to be able to find the right font. You need to be able to customize it a little bit. And you see this a lot. James does this all the time. They'll customize angles, corners, you know, they will take that font and make it a one off. They'll make it bespoke for that logo. This way it's not like you're just picking something off the shelf.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Typography isn't secondary to the mark. Okay. And it's not an afterthought. It's part of the mark. It's part of the logo mark. So it needs to have enough attention given to it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, when you're actually building out these marks.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So our good friend Martina Flor said, type is a voice. Words are what you say, and type is how you say it. Okay? So think about that. Whether that, Whether that your logo is just a word mark or whether is the font within the. The lockup altogether, pay attention and obsess over the type just as much as you do with that. With that mark itself.

[B]

Right. Yeah. That's great. That's. Yeah, that's always. I always kind of thought that a lot of people are like, they spend all the time on the mark and.

[A]

Then just drop something.

[B]

Poppins. There you go. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah, Guilty on our mark. But I mean, we, we're hitting issues.

[B]

All over the board on that bad boy, but. Yeah, that's, that's, that's brilliant. The, the. The type is super important. Just as important as a mark. Wow.

[A]

All right, number 13. When designing logos, focus on the form, not on the frill. Oh, right. So again, kill the fluff. Okay. Don't worry about. About, you know, all the drop shadows and all the, the shiny parts to it. Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Focus on the core shape, because if the core shape fails, the logo fails.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And you can't get away from that. Unfortunately, design works, you know, even if you strip it right to its bone, right into the core. And that's what you should be focusing on first before you even think about gradients and effects and colors and everything else like that. And I think people easily get lost on that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Was it. James said, it's like if you're adding stuff and you don't know why.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That you shouldn't be doing that. That's your red flag right there.

[A]

That's your red flag.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

When you look at all the beautiful logo modernism books. Okay. Or you look at like all these classic logo books. Okay. They always show them, you know, in its basic form.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Often in just black and white.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Okay. And then again, you can appreciate the. The logo for its form, for the beauty in what's been created. Not all the flourishes and fluff that's floating around it.

[B]

There's no drop shadows, right? Yeah. And a nice gradient through it.

[A]

Geez. You know, God. Wasn't it Scott Fuller who said, like, you know, you can polish a turd as much as you want, but it's still a.

[B]

Still a turd.

[A]

Didn't he say that? I think he did.

[B]

If he didn't, it's something he would say.

[A]

Jeez. Right. But anyway. Yeah, yeah, you get the point.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You can put as much lipstick on a pig, it's still gonna be.

[B]

That's right. It's still gonna be a pig. Exactly. O.

[A]

That sounded so nasty. All right. Number 14. Always test logos first in black and white. Oh, okay. So again, if you don't got any, any, any colors, that's really not a problem. If the logo is done right. Okay. If your design is solid, you know, it can stand on its own without colors. And this is very similar to. To the point before that, you know, color is. Should be considered seasoning. Okay. You need to have a good solid mark. Okay. Good solid logo that can stand on its own with just black and white. Okay. Make. Make the. Make mono. The whole monochromatic experience. Make that the mission first. Okay. And then you can think about the colors after the fact. Okay. You can hide color gradients. All that fluff can hide so much.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's working. So make sure that your logo marks. Mark always works in black and white first. Nice. Our friend Mr. Bernard, Mr. James Bernard said if it doesn't work in black and white, it doesn't work.

[B]

Yeah. There you go. That's brilliant. Yeah.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Almost done, guys. Number 15. Okay. Prioritize real world logo function over fancy mock ups. So this is interesting. And this is something I learned at Creative Site South. Okay. And this was something, you know, our friend James. James Bernard told us. Okay. He was doing a workshop on the proper way to do mockups. And I was like, well, dude, don't you just go online and grab Mockups.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because they're everywhere.

[B]

The free pick and where you go. Yeah.

[A]

Right. Like, literally. Right. And he's like, you know, that's. That's not a good representation for the customer.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I was like, you're right. Because here I could be putting the mark on a truck. They might only have cars.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I might put it on. On, like, a storefront, but they might use it like this on their own building or inside in a different way. Right. It's so important that we realize how the logo is actually used in the real world. Okay. So your logo needs to work everywhere, not just in your presentation deck. And again, to his point, take it a step further and put it on their material, on their storefront, in their business, on their shirts. Okay. And give them ownership. Right. It needs. Design, needs to live in its environment, not just in your presentation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Michael Beirut said a logo doesn't live in a vacuum. It lives in the real world.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Right. And that's so true, because again, oftentimes you'll see people will take a logo and they'll put it on a billboard on the side of the building. Yeah. But we're talking. It's a basement business.

[B]

It's never going to happen.

[A]

Maybe. But I mean, again, it's just not a true depiction.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Of how it will be used. So what I learned, you know, from James was that, you know, the. The closer you are and putting it in its actual environment, in its home, the better it is for customers to actually visualize.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're going to use this.

[B]

And they could see that it's like, hey, that's. That. That's my shirt with the logo on it. Right.

[A]

Like, absolutely.

[B]

Bringing it right home to people. Like, that's. That's really, really cool. And. And, you know, I think he kind of alluded to it was a little stalkerish because you're. You're. You're going through people's. But. But I mean, they appreciate. I think they appreciate that. They appreciate that you went that extra effort.

[A]

You go the extra effort and you find their material, find pictures, and you actually make it work.

[B]

This is your storefront. Exact.

[A]

Actually even said he would go as far as asking them for images.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

You know, asking them some stuff to share. So it made sense.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right. Number 16. Okay. Design logos with the whole system in mind.

[B]

Ah.

[A]

Okay. So a logo is only. Only one piece of a bigger identity of a bigger brand. And oftentimes people sell it this way. They sell it as just a part of a bigger, larger Identity system. You need to start thinking of logo design in this way. Pentagram does a great job at this. Every time you see them launching, you know, a new logo, launching a new brand, they're not just showing the logo, they're showing the logo. They're showing it on the sides of buildings, they're showing it on bags, they're showing it in like different type of environments and how that one logo can be extrapolated into 30 different items. Talking about 30 different departments. Okay. It's part of a larger system. Okay. So again, you need to think its usage, you need to think of its movement, its scale, where it's going to be used, how else the applications it can be used. So this is a really important part that I don't know if enough people think about it, the long term use of this logo. They just, here's your mark, here's your delivery, see you later type idea.

[B]

Christy at Pink Pony is amazing at that stuff too. Like her brand guidelines and what the logo could is absolutely incredible. It's like a 40 page book.

[A]

Absolutely. It is.

[B]

So, yeah, yeah, but this, but that's, that's how you do that. Every possible variant you can use, you can come up with. She's got it, she's got it in.

[A]

Place and it's true. Right. People need to start thinking this way because Paula sure said designing a logo isn't design, it's designing a system. Okay. And that's the way you need to think. It is just, just one part of a much larger system. And again, this is how pros think about this, not just your average designer. Okay. Number 17. When designing logos, say more by showing and speaking less. Okay. Now where I'm going with this, okay, is it's really important to leave some room for interpretation on the customer side. Okay. If you tell, tell the full story with the logo, there's nothing intriguing, okay. There's nothing for people to figure out. Okay. People love to figure out a logo and feel like get it. Yeah, exactly. Okay. You, you know, the suggestion is often stronger than the explanation of the logo itself. So the Nike mark. Okay. Nike. The Nike logo doesn't say shoe anywhere. No. Okay. But it shows motion.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. WWF WorldWideLife Foundation. The logo, the panda, it doesn't say our mission. Okay. It makes you fall in love and give empathy with it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

There you have to leave some room for personal interpretation to draw somebody in to your logo, into that brand and help them come to that conclusion or a similar conclusion on their own.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

So, okay. Alan Fletcher, Okay. Said what you leave out is just as important as what you put into a logo.

[B]

Yes, that's kind of right. That's right.

[A]

And it's very true and perfect to this point. It's just as equal.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Brilliant. That's awesome.

[A]

Last but not least, number 18. When you're designing logos, be brutal with your sketches. Okay? So again, you need to kill weak ideas and never, ever present that shit to your customer. Okay. Keep only your strongest ideas.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Paul Rand was notorious for crunching up paper after paper. He would have mounds of papers around his desk because he was ruthless when it came to, you know, only showing the best marks. Okay. And again, you need to edit ruthlessly when it comes, you know, Alan Peters, he would do like a hundred sketches and he would, you know, like constantly, just after weeks and weeks, sketch after sketchup, but he doesn't present them all. He presents his only top choices. Okay. But you need to edit ruthlessly. Okay. When it comes to this situation, only the strongest concepts, ideas should survive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so. So last quote for this process is by our friend David Carson, who said, you have to get rid of the crap before you can find the core.

[B]

Yes. Weed through it. I love it, David.

[A]

So again, a lot of these ideas, you know, a lot of these are very straightforward.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Action oriented. But a lot of them really make you think about the process that you have to go through in creating a logo design. If you want people to. To look at your logos and have that reaction that we saw this weekend, it has to be more than just something that looks good on the screen.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. You need to hit the purpose. Hit those brands. Okay. Make sure this, you know, it's clear enough so people get it, but there's enough intrigue that they have to, you know, come to their own conclusion. What it is that you're looking at, and oftentimes it's not even that much. Like again, for example, that Egan logo, okay, There was a enough white space and duck that you got that it was a tree, that it was a ground, it was on the hill. You got that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It didn't have to spell it out.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

You know, and again that, like one of my favorite logos, the metal Llama logo, after, right. You see that it's, you know, the. The code square, but then you see.

[B]

The little llama inside there.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Brilliant.

[A]

You. You need to be able to, you know, have people appreciate, you know, the outcome, because it has to be more than just aesthetics. And I think that's what the top Designers do when they come up with logos is they make sure that it's not just about the aesthetics and looking good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But there's. It's a deeper purpose. It has deeper meaning in this. Right. And again, it gives enough but takes away.

[B]

Right? Yes. Awesome. Wow. Wow.

[A]

I don't know. I kind of felt, like, inspired. Dr.

[B]

Totally. Like, it was great. Like, again, like, we had the great fortune of hanging with the three titans of the logo industry, and it was kind of like, wow, that was a, that was a pretty heavy experience.

[A]

Right? It was really cool.

[B]

I'm not surprised that you wrote this.

[A]

Well, and again, it really is. It really separates. And not that this is a matter of separating the, you know, the, the new to the old, but, you know, if you want to elevate, you know, your way of thinking, if you want to elevate your, Your logo game, you know, your marketing, your brand game, you need to start. Start thinking like the legends do, and you need to start creating for longevity. They have to be deeper the way you think, you know, through your marks, your process. And again, you have to be able to deliver something that's going to last for decades. Not done in a year or two once the next fad comes in.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah. And I think a lot of people gravitate to this because, oh, doing a logo mark's easy.

[A]

Jeez. But I don't think so.

[B]

I think it's probably the hardest aspect of what we do do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean? Like, there's a lot of moving parts in this stuff.

[A]

Yeah, there really is. There really is.

[B]

And kudos to. To guys like James and Alan. Like, like, they knock it out of the park, but they work hard.

[A]

They work their asses off.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Right. Yeah. Can you imagine what it would have been like to, like, actually. So we hung out with these guys. Imagine hanging out with Paul Rand, Saul Bass. I wonder what, I wonder what that would have been like.

[B]

I don't know. Yeah, we. We're fortunate enough to. We'll be able to tell ourselves our grandkids, that stuff.

[A]

That stuff. And a few.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I remember hanging. Hang out with these. That, that old designer guy.

[A]

He's awesome. Yeah, it's true. It's. It's interesting, though, but.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, it's. Yeah, it was, it was very inspirational. Yeah, they. And they're, you know, the nicest part is they're decent people.

[A]

Everybody's great. Everybody gives back to this community.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm looking forward to doing Crop next week and kind of meeting a whole new batch of people.

[B]

New crop of people.

[A]

New crop.

[B]

See what I did there?

[A]

And. And. And again, a lot of these people we don't even know, which is kind of interesting. We. We have, you know, been fortunate enough to have a circle of influence, but now we're going to be meeting a new circle of influence. I'm very excited about.

[B]

Me, too.

[A]

Yeah. Very cool.

[B]

Awesome.

[A]

All right, everybody, I hope you got some really cool out of this. Again, the idea for this isn't to put anybody down, but it's how to elevate your game.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And again, this is the kind of stuff. These are all points that I got and I researched and studied new but legends, not just logo designers, but these are the people who are creating that is going to last, if. If it hasn't already, for decades to come.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So by all means, share your feelings with this. You can find us on Instagram.

[B]

You're.

[A]

You can hit us up on YouTube. And yeah, all I got to say.

[B]

Is I'm Massimo and my name is Sean. Stay creative and stay.