The Brutal Truth Why Your Brand Isn’t Working & How to Fix it with Anneli Hannson

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Angry Designer - Episode: The Brutal Truth Why Your Brand Isn’t Working & How to Fix it with Anneli Hannson

Release Date: November 5, 2024

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Introduction

In this episode of The Angry Designer, host Sean delves deep into the intricacies of brand strategy and its pivotal role in elevating businesses beyond mere visual identities. Joined by special guest Anneli Hannson, a seasoned brand strategist from Sweden, they unpack the often overlooked aspects of branding that determine a company's true presence in the market.

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Understanding Brand Beyond the Logo

Anneli Hannson (A): (00:00)
“I think we're in a place where a lot even think about a logo and a brand identity and they think that is the brand. But a brand is what people say about this company. If they don't know that you exist, then you don't have a brand.”

Key Points:

• Brand Definition: Anneli emphasizes that a brand transcends just logos and visual elements. It encompasses the perceptions and conversations people have about a company.
• Visibility is Crucial: Without recognition and awareness, even the most well-designed brand elements are ineffective.

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Practical Design vs. High Design

Sean (B): (00:19)
“...clean lines of the Scandinavian design or Swiss design greats like Max Huber and Josef Mueller Brockman. Well, it sounds pretty impressive and you know, this sounds great from a high design perspective...”

Anneli (A): (01:41)
“...the shield maiden is in the house.”

Key Points:

• Functional Design: Anneli distinguishes between high design, which often emphasizes aesthetics, and practical, functional design that serves real-world purposes.
• No-Nonsense Approach: She advocates for smart, functional designs that prioritize usability over mere visual appeal.

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The Importance of Empathy in Branding

Anneli (A): (08:24)
“When the company culture sucks, then the brand will not be anything more than very shallow. So a culture comes from having a really clear mission and vision and really good leadership. So everything needs to start there.”

Key Points:

• Empathy as a Foundation: Empathy plays a critical role in understanding both the company's internal culture and the customers' needs.
• Authentic Brand Messaging: Brands must align their messaging with genuine company values and missions to resonate authentically with their audience.

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Bridging Design and Strategy

Anneli (A): (06:07)
“I was driving the boat. I did everything myself. I killed those fish. So I'm just so proud of myself that I actually had to go through it. Even though crying, even acting like a little princess, I still did it.”

Key Points:

• From Designer to Problem Seeker: Anneli encourages designers to adopt a proactive approach in identifying and solving problems rather than waiting for clients to present them.
• Strategic Thinking: Incorporating strategy into design enhances the value provided to clients, making designers integral to brand development.

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Overcoming Common Branding Pitfalls

Anneli (A): (14:49)
“The lack of people who know Excel sheets and numbers, like, there's no lack of that in the corporate world. That's what they have. But someone needs to tell them, which I did when I went into the big corporate world the first time.”

Key Points:

• Identifying Core Issues: Anneli highlights how many companies focus excessively on data and numbers, neglecting the emotional and cultural aspects that truly define a brand.
• Creating Meaningful Narratives: Through storytelling and understanding the deeper motivations of company owners, brands can craft more compelling and authentic narratives.

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Personal Branding and Its Significance

Sean (B): (56:54)
“Because if people want to, you know, you're right and you could probably go and chat and get some tips to do this and, and go on another platform, tips for that. But if people follow your brand, they believe in you...”

Anneli (A): (57:13)
“So when you have someone who can help you facilitate and to find back to that thing, who you really are, what you believe in, what you stand up for...”

Key Points:

• Personal Brand as Professional Reputation: Anneli underscores the importance of personal branding for freelancers and designers to stand out and attract the right clients.
• Authenticity in Personal Branding: Building a personal brand involves a deep understanding of oneself, embracing both strengths and weaknesses to create genuine connections.

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Navigating the Digital Landscape and AI

Anneli (A): (68:10)
“I use ChatGPT several hours every day... It becomes a little bit better. I take it back into my notes again. I make sure that it really sounds like me. Sometimes I even write a word or something that might not be perfect because my brand is to be perfectly imperfect and beautiful.”

Key Points:

• Leveraging AI Tools: Anneli shares her method of using AI to enhance her content while maintaining her unique voice and authenticity.
• Human Element Remains Irreplaceable: Despite the advancements in AI, the human touch in imagination, connections, and relationships remains critical and irreplaceable.

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Authenticity vs. Perception in Branding

Anneli (A): (50:32)
“If you are something and you aspire to be something, but people perceive something totally different, then we don't have a match. And in personal branding, that will feel really fake. It actually does the same with a company, but for personal, we always say that we need to be authentic and you need to be real. But it's the same for a company.”

Key Points:

• Consistency is Key: Authenticity in branding requires that a company's actions and messaging consistently reflect its true values and identity.
• Avoiding Misalignment: Brands must ensure that their aspirations align with their actual behaviors to prevent perceptions of inauthenticity.

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Practical Advice for Designers

Anneli (A): (33:24)
“...start creating content or do things around this more than just show your work. Go out there and show some things that you might have fun creative ideas for...”

Key Points:

• Content Creation: Designers are encouraged to proactively create and share content that showcases their strategic thinking and problem-solving abilities.
• Facilitation Over Advice: Instead of offering unsolicited advice, designers should ask insightful questions to guide clients towards identifying and solving their own problems.

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Rapid Fire Round

To conclude the episode, Sean and Anneli engage in a fun rapid-fire round, revealing personal preferences and insights. This segment highlights Anneli's authentic and vibrant personality, reinforcing the episode's themes of authenticity and personal connection.

Notable Answers:

• Favorite Music: Metal (07:15)
• Morning Person or Night Owl: Night Owl (07:31)
• Favorite Color: Black (07:15)
• Superpower of Choice: Flight, like Superman (07:39)
• Favorite Brand: Oatly (07:51)

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Conclusion

Sean (B): (85:27)
“...The importance of personal brand. Because if people want to, you know, you're right and you could probably go and chat and get some tips to do this and, and go on another platform, tips for that. But if people follow your brand, they believe in you...”

Anneli (A): (85:32)
“But we know that a brand is about know, like and trust... That's what people pay for is like to know how to do it in real life...”

Key Takeaways:

• Know, Like, Trust: Building a brand revolves around making people aware of your existence (Know), forging emotional connections (Like), and establishing reliability (Trust).
• Actionable Strategy: Anneli encourages designers to embrace strategic thinking, leveraging their unique strengths to build authentic and impactful brands.

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers valuable insights into the deeper aspects of branding, urging graphic designers to adopt a more strategic and empathetic approach. Anneli Hannson's expertise underscores the necessity of aligning brand strategy with genuine company culture and personal authenticity, providing listeners with actionable advice to elevate their creative careers and build brands that truly resonate.

Notable Quote:

"A brand is what people say about this company. If they don't know that you exist, then you don't have a brand." – Anneli Hannson (00:00)

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Connect with Anneli Hannson:

• Website: AnneliHansen2s.com
• Instagram & LinkedIn: @TheAnnaleehanson

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Stay Tuned: For more no-bull insights and actionable advice to build your creative career and charge what you're worth, subscribe to The Angry Designer podcast and join the community of empowered graphic designers.

Transcript

[A]

I think we're in a place where a lot even think about a logo and a brand identity and they think that is the brand. But a brand is what people say about this company. If they don't know that you exist, then you don't have a brand.

[B]

You're listening to the Angry Designer podcast where we help frustrated graphic designers crush all the industry BS and learn what it takes to charge what you're worth and build badass roof rewarding careers. What's up, angry designers? Let me ask you a question. When you think of Sweden, what's the first thing that comes to mind? Besides of course, blondes and blue eyes. You know, we've got Volvo, we've got Ikea. Maybe you start thinking about, you know, the clean lines of the Scandinavian design or Swiss design greats like Max Huber and Josef Mueller Brockman. Well, it sounds pretty impressive and you know, this sounds great from a high design perspective, which it really feels like it. But let's be real. I don't think this is high design. I think this is practical. I think this is good design. No bs. Smart, functional, good design. That makes sense. And today I'm pumped to bring you somebody from the land of damn good design whose no BS approach has helped her make waves with billion dollar brands, top execs, and she rolls with the crew over at the future. So I'd like to present the one and only Ms. Annalee Henson.

[A]

Hello. The shield maiden is in the house.

[B]

I wasn't sure which way we were going to go with this one, but I'm glad you brought that.

[A]

You know, you know what that is, right? I saw it right away. You were like, yeah, I got it. I know. Okay. The, the female Vikings. Okay.

[B]

Yes, absolutely. Right. And that show is, has gone crazy, crazy lately. So now I'm not going to be able to look at you any other way. In fact, I'm going to put this through some sort of AI scrubber and you're going to have a Viking with the wings on it.

[A]

I have that already. My friend Heather Crank, she's an amazing with AI and mid journey and she created this amazing pictures of me. So yeah, that's awesome.

[B]

You should share those with us. And we're going to put that.

[A]

I can do that.

[B]

So I'm very impressed that you're here, of course, because you are from the other side of the world. But you were so close to us last week, were you not?

[A]

Yeah, I was. I was in Seattle and Vancouver.

[B]

Oh, wow. Right. And let him know what you were doing over There. Well, Seattle, but leaving the. Vancouver. The Canadian adventure.

[A]

Yeah, the Canadian adventure. Okay. I was with 19 creative entrepreneurs in Canada in the wilderness and fishing.

[B]

No fishing. That's awesome.

[A]

So Chris do was like, it was like maybe almost a year ago, and it's like, who want to go fishing And. Because I know my friend Chris and I know how fun it is to travel with him because we did the future Euro tour about a year together. A year ago together. So I was like, fishing is amazing. Being in the wilderness is totally amazing. Being around 19 people, which most of them, I don't know, even more amazing. And just being around Chris for a week, life changing.

[B]

So I'm like, I'm going nice. And. And I mean, okay, your story on LinkedIn was brilliant. You're right up your experience and everything, you know, it was. It was so well written. But the experience. Okay, we have to start here because you do not suit that whole story, which I think is so life changing. And then with our little chat before, I understand why. So let this guy know and everybody else.

[A]

Okay. So what people don't know about me is that I'm actually born on an island, like with 400 people in the archipelago. Stockholm. So we're talking about, like, I. My dad was fishing, hunting, doing all these things. So that's kind of how I brought up. But I'm also a woman. And even though we're equal in Sweden, my dad treated me and my sister like two princesses. So they were like, I take care of it, you know, so if Riga went fishing and we were driving the boat, whatever we did, dad was always there kind of helping us, you know, and then you might know the story with other, you know, people, maybe your wives, but it's like, you know, then you change your dad to another man, you get married. And I ended up in this, like, I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to do this. All things technical, of course, or if I have to kill something, like, I can't even kill the bug. So I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. So that's where I've been kind of, you know, going my entire life. But so I was like, so. And I was a little bit competitive. I'm like, I want to have a really big fish, you know, the big king. King salmon. That's what I want. And Chris was laughing and he's like, sure. Do you know how big they are? I'm like, you just wait and see. Okay, so it was kind of a joke that I was going to have a fish, but I got one really, really fast and. But I just forgot about the small little detail that I don't even kill a bug. So when I got this fish, it was like, excite. I was so excited, you know, the dopamine, like, adrenaline. I'm like, oh, my God. You know, and then I just see it. I'm like, shit, I have to kill it. I don't. I refuse to do this, you know? So the first, I didn't know him so well. Warren, lovely guy. I'm like, you have to help me. And he did. But the second one, my friend Melanie, she's like, I'm not helping you. You got this. You know? And third time, Chris, he's like, I'm definitely not helping you. And I just had to do it, you know, so.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

From. I think this fishing trip for me was so great because I didn't expect this, but when. When you don't. When you say, I don't know about a lot of things, I wasn't even aware. It's not so flattering to hear that. But when you do that and then you realize I did so many things that I never expected, like I was driving the boat. You know, when you really have this, like. What do you call it? Like this, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A big motor, big boat. And I was driving. It was like big waves. I was just going for it. I was docking at the. You know, kind of parking it. I did everything myself. I killed those fish. So I'm just so proud of myself that I actually had to go through it. Even though crying, even acting like a little princess, I still did it. And that was the best thing with the whole trip. So it was amazing seeing whales, spending time with lovely people, but just to realize at the age of 50 that I could do whatever I want. And I don't have to say, I don't know. Yeah, that was cool.

[B]

So is that. Do you feel that was the learning experience from the trip?

[A]

Definitely. And just so much. And also that I just realized how much I miss being around people.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

I love being around people, you know.

[B]

Funny, remote world, right? And it is different when you feel the presence of others. There's a warmth, there's a connection that unfortunately, as splendid as it is, you don't get that other than person. You're right.

[A]

I know. And you can connect with someone in just a couple of minutes and you feel the energy, and people are so different. And you can feel some people need a little bit more Time and space and you can like invite them with something they feel comfortable with and other people need another energy. And I just love that, you know, connection with people and it's not the same. So I think it was just reminding me how much I missed that and I need to do something about that in my business.

[B]

So do you feel okay? We'll still, we'll back this up a little bit after. But I mean, you have this, this connection. Obviously you, you have, you know, you're obviously a very empathetic person and you appreciate feelings. Do you think that's lacking these days in people who do what you do?

[A]

When you say people who do what I do, who do you refer to?

[B]

There's, there is no secret that my experience with brand strategists in the past have been love, hate. A lot of them. Great. A lot of them have been artists.

[A]

Okay. Yeah.

[B]

So, and you know, and, and the artists were straight business where I feel brands need empathy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So do you feel that that has made a difference in your approach all these years to branding? Whether it's a, a person, a company or the.

[A]

Yeah, I'm not the traditional brand strategist. I'm definitely not. Okay, so I, first of all, you know, I started to work when I was 17, 18 years old, you know, so I don't have that academic background. I'm very street smart, you know, like, so that's one thing. Second is that I went to school to, to a creative school studying branding and, but also I don't have the graphic design background. I have the marketing strategy and brand strategy background, but I chose to go to creative school. So the first year I studied like concept development, like all these like creative things around ideas. So that's my foundation. And then I also studied design thinking and innovation with 29 designers and me. So I've always been the odd bird. So when I come out in the corporate world, I'm not like them. You know, I try to pretend for a couple of years like, oh, I can't wear high heels. First of all I'm tall. But then it's like I can't even walk. So I'm like, after a while I'm like, I'm so awkward. I just feel like I'm going to a dress up party. I can't be like this. So when I started to be myself and to wear sneakers and just be my crazy, weird ADHD self, I scared a lot of people, of course. But I also thought I brought in some creative thinking. So all these things with like excel Sheets makes me like have an allergic reaction. I don't like numbers. Like, I love everything that is connected with how we emotionally connect with people. That's my strength. So that's maybe why I love being around creatives.

[B]

Right, right, right. And then how does that affect the way you approach brands then? Because it's one thing to train a person, coach a person in branding.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which we'll talk about later, of course, with your new mission. But how do you apply that sensitivity, that empathy, the feelings part to something like a brand, which is not real?

[A]

But you know what? I do think this is the big problem that all companies have, but no one have the guts to say it. That most corporate brand are just so boring. Extremely boring. So the lack of people who know Excel sheets and numbers, like, there's no lack of that in the corporate world. That's what they have.

[B]

Yeah. Yes.

[A]

But someone needs to tell them, which I did when I went into the like big corporate world the first time. I was like, have someone told the CEO that he's pretty boring when he have his like laser pointer and talk about numbers? Like, who the f cares about that? He needs to talk about why the. Why the company exists and why anyone should care and why we should work here and how we can accomplish all these goals together. But no one had the guts to tell him, so I couldn't talk to him. So I talked to his secretary and I said, you know what? There is a lack of a mission in this company. I went in and I read everything about it. But you never talk about why you exist beyond money, she told him. And I got then the question, if I could write this. So I went out, I met a lot of the owners which were farmers, and I interviewed them about why do you own the company? And everyone thought it was about the money, but it wasn't. The main thing that made them cry when I asked them was that they want to take responsibility for mother Nature and to give it to their kids in generations.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So that was the foundation for starting to tell the story with storytelling about the farmers and how we take responsibility from. They call it from field to fork, which is basically from farm to table. So that's. That's what I've been doing. I have not been, you know, I also. I can look at number. I can see things, of course, but it's not that what people need. Often they need someone who wear the hat of the customer and to really like, how are we going to bridge what the company wants? Meant also to understand the customer and to be that translator. That's been my role and I think that should be the role of a CBO in every company.

[B]

Right, right, right, right. So then do you think that they're just, is it blind? Is it that they're just fooling themselves? Is it that they're just using a bunch of bullshit tactics and just high level corporate thinking to almost fake create a brand or the illusion of a brand?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I think that most brands say that they want to humanize their brand, but I don't really know if they know what that means.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I think that's B.S.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

So what, what is important when you really want to do that? It's to understand that a brand comes from the company culture. If the company culture sucks, then the brand will not be anything more than very shallow. So a culture comes from having a really clear mission and vision and really good leadership. So everything needs to start there. So that's why I spent about half of my time when I help companies with the internal things like with leadership, with company culture, with bringing people in and have conversations with different stakeholders like employees, you know, customers, owners, to really understand the brand. That's the real foundation. If you don't do that work, if you just hope for some flashy advertising agency or someone is going to do that for you, it doesn't work. It's not for real.

[B]

Yeah, right, right, right, right. So would you consider it marketing then? When they try to portray what they think their brand is, you see so many companies saying, oh, we are the fastest, we are the best, we support runners. But really it's all about money. It's all about there's nothing culture there because it's all. Everything's hidden behind a wall. Is it just a marketing ploy?

[A]

You know, I think so. First I the definition of marketing. And this might tie back to why a lot of graphic designers or designers don't really maybe like marketing or advertising or brand strategy. Because I think there is a misunderstanding a little bit about what marketing is. And of course people will have different opinions. But my, I like Seth Godin's way of approaching what marketing is. I think he has a more modern way and it's actually what I learned in school from start to. A lot of people confuse marketing with advertising and they think marketing is something tactic short term and it's not. Marketing strategy is to be able to really like know what the market needs. It's like putting your ear, you know, and listen in. What does the market really need and how can we help them to get what they want. That is marketing. And so if you know that, you also know what needs they have, what wants they have, their fears, their dreams, and then you can create an offer for them which we. So we talk about. Fancy talk is like we say the value proposition. So it's basically like, how do we solve what they want and then how do we position ourselves in a way so we can solve this problem for them, but we can also stand out in the competition. So when you know your things, you don't have to use all these difficult fancy words. I think that's what put people off a little bit, that it's just like, you know, value proposition, positioning, marketing, branding, like, what's what. But if you really understand the differences, then you understand that it is about helping people get what they want. And then marketing is wonderful because it's about helping people.

[B]

Do you think that this needs to change at the. At the, at the education level?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's where it's probably stemming from. That was a pretty quick answer. I could finish it. Take your time with the answer there.

[A]

No, but, you know, I do think so. And I realized something that I combine when I teach brand strategy. For me, it's very, very easy because a brand needs to move the needle for the business. It is for growing the business. So you can't have a business today unless you want a commodity without having a brand. So it's very connected. So you need to have a business strategy, then you need to have a brand strategy. And the brand strategy includes, for me, knowing about the marketing strategy, what the market wants and who they are and what's important for them, but also knowing how we will position ourselves and how we will be different and how we will stand out and how we will make people feel something which is more branding. So when we have the ability to combine those things, that's what I teach in brand strategy. So a lot of marketing people, they don't know about the more feeling side of it. Branding. A lot of branding people have never read anything about business or marketing in school. So we have this, like, I feel like that sweet spot between. Is exactly what you need when you want to develop a brand. But that's what I'm trying to teach people.

[B]

So how do you then in. In the kind of world that we're dealing with right now, which everything is digital, right? We're bombarded with messages, you know, from the moment we wake up to when we go to sleep. And it's all digital, unfortunately. And we were just talking about how digital is Very unfeeling. It's hard to do to get across emotions. How can a company these days try to overcome this barrier? Because this just sounds like. It almost sounds like we know what we should be doing, but based on the world, we can't.

[A]

Okay. I think sometimes I think I start in the wrong kind of way when I explain brand strategy. That's why I make it so boring for creative people. So if we flip it around instead so we just think about something like, say, a brand that you like.

[B]

Yes, Apple.

[A]

Apple. Okay. So when you think about Apple, what are the things that you see, like with your eyes, what do you see about Apple?

[B]

I see people using the product and enjoying it. You know, the clean lines, of course.

[A]

Yeah, but.

[B]

Yeah, you're right. But I think it's more. Yes. I'm thinking more the use itself, the functionalities, personally. But yes.

[A]

So there's still things that we can see. So if you think of a branded identity design, like we can see a logo. Right. We can see different colors, we can see types, we can see the whole, like brand identity. Sometimes we can say messaging, we can see taglines, we can read stories. So there are definitely things we can see and we can experience and we can read. But that's like the top of the iceberg. But what is under that? So in order to. They even know how to write their stories, how they're going to show up, what colors they will use, how their logo. Like, before they even know that, they need to know a lot of other things first. So we base it on that. So it's like with. I can say another example is my. A Swedish brand new. You mentioned a couple of Swedish brands like Ikea and Volvo and they're big. But two of my favorite brands from Sweden, Spotify. Swedish. Oatly is Swedish. The oat milk, which I really like too.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

So there's a lot of cool brands in Sweden too. So if you look at Oatly, for example, they used to be a pretty boring alternative to traditional milk. That was for like lactose intolerant people. So it's like you can just imagine, like, oh, you know, that didn't look so sexy.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That was their old positioning and how they looked like, you know. And then when you see their packaging today, like, it's one of my favorites, like design. Their messaging is super cool. They stand for something, you know, they take stand against something. They're like milk, but for humans.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That tone, we just love it. So. But how do they even get to that? Place. Because if they would call one of you and just say something like giving you an order, you know, just do something fun, crazy, you know, modern, you would probably not end up in that solution. But they have done the work before, which we call brand strategy. So they actually know what they believe in. They know what they stand for, they know their values, you know, they know who they are for and who they're not for.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

So they know all these things. They also know so much about their target audience. What is important for them. All of these things are the things we do in brand strategy. So for me, I don't even know how people do a brand identity without doing strategy first, without the background.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because that's just guesswork. So I would say brand identity is nothing if you don't have strategy first. But I could also say strategy is not worth anything if you don't have any creative after.

[B]

Yeah, the children, they need to be married.

[A]

They need to be married to each other. And I'm not saying that designers need to do the work first. Could be someone else who's doing it, but there's an opportunity here because a lot of designers already do this, but they don't charge for it, so they don't understand. This is what we call brand strategy, you know, so they have so much to offer. And this is why I love teaching designers and creatives.

[B]

You know, I think, you know, the big apprehension, of course, is, like we said, so. So we're, you know, we're the same age, we've, we've gone back. We started at about the same time. But I started creative where you started branding, which is brilliant. The brand strategists I met early on were the corporate people. It was all very. It. Everything that came out of their mouth just felt fake, felt bullshit. It was very salesy and, and it never crossed over to, you know, any sort of feelings, you know, emotions. So when I hear terms like we have to create a mission statement for a company, right away I get triggered because the mission statements I have heard have been obscured. They're not human friendly, they're hard to understand, you know, and so this is what I feel designers have all these years where we go to when we think, and then to try to put creative around that is. Well, it's actually impossible. So I think that's why when brand, or when creatives take their own approach to branding, they start with the clients, the feelings. They go to the feelings immediately. Can't we just get rid of the whole mission statement and the vision statement? Can't we just go to the brand Purpose? Yeah, like, I know, I know Zappos was like that. And it was all about delivering the best customer experience ever. Yeah, right. Like to the end, to, to. And the stories are, can't they just go there and start with that?

[A]

But I think that is the core of everything. I mean, if you have a strong. It doesn't matter if you call it a mission or a vision or whatever people call it. I don't really care because there's so many. When. I mean, when I went to school, purpose didn't even exist. Oh, that was like Simon Sinek came in, like 2010. We talked about mission and vision and the vision was more connected to the business goals. Like, if. Where do you want to end up? If the world were perfect, like, aim towards the stars. Mission was a little bit. But what if, you know, why do we exist beyond money? Why should anyone care? Because people also want to work at a company. We think about branding is always about customers, but branding is also about finding the right people who work for you. A lot of companies I work for, they have a bigger challenge to find the right people who will work for them than to find customers. So it's really important to know when you want to hire the best people. It's not just you don't want to compete with price, which is like salary. You don't want only that. You want people to work there because they love the mission, why you exist. They want to be part of that, hopefully, like a movement. They want to feel like they're part of a tribe. They want to hang out with people who believe what they believe and who they vibe with. And if we talk about it like this, it's still as professional. You just don't have to use all these words that.

[B]

Fair. Fair enough.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Like, yeah, like, we would refer to it as culture, you know, environment.

[A]

So we mean the same thing. It's. And I think if creative people come in, because that's how I've been talking about it, the creative people come in and have the confidence of knowing this is what the company need and maybe a structure and a framework for how to get there, then you can also push back when some guy in a suit, you know, try to overpower you and use all these words and say, like, you know, this is not. I'm like, oh, yeah. You know, you can actually lead that conversation if you know what you're doing. And I think a lot of creatives should have that role because we're not buying into all this bs. When we see a really crappy mission statement, we're like, no, this is just bs. Like, we need to write in a way that people actually care, which benefits everyone. So the suit people have their role in a company and for us, others who are more driven, maybe by feelings, we are better at other things.

[B]

So aside from being, you know, coming from Viking roots and being able to say, I have to go talk to that CEO because he's a total bullshit artist, how would designers then, with this in mind, switch from being doers to problem solvers? Because like you said, it's. You can't necessarily start at a redesign. And I agree with you there. Without knowing more about the brand, the company, the customers, how do they switch this mentality without losing their hand? And now a word from our sponsor. All right, designers, let's cut the bowl. How many times have you had a killer website design only to watch it fall apart because of code? Or developer telling you no, no, no. Or maybe you've held back from web design altogether, thinking it's just too complicated and too technical or totally out of your wheelhouse. Either way, it's time for a change. Wix Studio is designed for designers, removing the barriers that limits your designs. Whether you're tired of developers watering down your ideas or too intimidated by the technical side of web, Wix Studio puts the creative power back in your hands. No code required. With a drag and drop interface that feels designer intuitive. Plus no code animations and even AI powered tools, you can create fully custom websites that match your vision. Every pixel, every detail. And if you're worried about the learning curve, don't be. Wix Studio is designed to feel as intuitive as your favorite design tools. Some designers here even say more. So that means you can jump right in and focus on what you do best. Designing badass brand aligned websites that'll take your business to the next level. So whether you've had enough of developers holding you back or you're ready to finally step into web design, check out wix studio.com and take control. That's wix studio.com go and take back web design for graphic designers.

[A]

I have a little bit different approach, I think, than some people have. And it's. I don't even think like problem solvers. I think like problem seekers because I realized that's what I'm doing. So people are hanging out way too much on Pinterest and other places looking for design inspiration. Look for problems to solve instead. You know, that's how you get find Things. So, for example, a couple of months ago I was at Ikea and my husband's like, he knows how I am. So he's like, oh my God, why are you bringing up your phone again? This is so cliche. Because I want to tell you, I actually did have meatballs too. It's so cliche.

[B]

I love it. Yeah.

[A]

So, but what I noticed because I've worked a lot with vegan brands, so I'm of course observe everything at Ikea, from how they their customer experience to how they kind of, you know, use design to move us around in the store. They know exactly where we want to go and how. And so. And I also looked at their menu and I'm like, I know because I'm friend with a person who work with sustainability at I guess I'm like, why don't they take the opportunity to nudge people's behavior in a sustainable way if that is really what they want? So I'm like, I need to take some pictures here. I need to send it to someone at Ikea. My husband's like, do you have to do this? Yes, I do.

[B]

Yes, you do.

[A]

That's being a problem seeker. Because I'm like, I can see a problem here. I know what your goal is, that you actually want to be perceived more sustainable. You have an opportunity to nudge and change people's behavior and you don't take that chance. So for me, that's a seeking of a problem. So how do we solve that? We can actually come in, we can prototype, we can design new menus, design, we can design a new experience and nudge a behavior. We can test, we can do an AB testing in the restaurant and see will it change. That's how I want designers to work and think. We don't need to sit there and wait for someone calling us and say, oh, we want a new menu now. Because we come up with this. Because most people don't think like this, because this is creative problem seeking and most suit people don't think like this. So this is an opportunity for designers to not just solve problems, but just take another couple of steps back and like, okay, what kind of problems do I see out there in the world and how can we use design to solve those problems? So I don't think designers should leave being creative, leave designing things, but to add this approach and to add strategy before you do. The design will not just give so much more value to your customers, it will also give you a lot more money and it's more fun because you're in charge of actually facilitating the discussions instead of you get, get a problem to solve from a client. Because most times, and you guys know this, they're not even solved. They're not even giving you the right problem to solve. So that's how I see it. Not that you have to change your role, but you just step up and realize how important you are. And I don't believe in advertising so much anymore. This is like the new era of designers to really step up and to realize what an opportunity there is to help developing brands.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. What advice can you give them to approach? I mean, I'm sure nobody wants to hear I found a problem with your business.

[A]

I do that all the time.

[B]

I'm sure you do. That doesn't surprise me. And, and in all fairness, I'm pretty blunt that way as well. And through that, my ears, I've gotten that reputation, which is fine. That's. That's part of who I am. But some people, you know, young designers or even new designers, they might be a little bit more apprehensive to be as bold as we are. How do we, how do we phrase that? So it turns what this problem they've discovered into an opportunity.

[A]

Yeah. So first of all, we can't assume that the problem we think we find is a actual problem, because that could be very like, I can understand why that come across. And if someone reach out to you, people do that to me sometimes too. And like, oh, I see your problem.

[B]

And I'm like, yeah, right, get out of here.

[A]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So you have to be a little smooth how you do it. So what I think is, first of all, if you really like this way of thinking, why not just try to like, start creating content or do things around this more than just show your work. Go out there and show some things that you might have fun creative ideas for. Because if you see someone do that, I will be like, this is a really creative, smart person. Because if you can do it for one thing, you can do it for more things. So that's one thing. Like just start showing your thinking and the way you approach problems. And I think another thing is to actually facilitate and to learn how to ask questions. Because you don't need to give people advice. You should not give people advice, but you can ask people questions. And that is when we get into actually sales too, because I happen to love selling too, which most creatives don't. It's because I see that as the same as marketing. It's just a generous act helping someone. I don't convince people. So you can ask people a couple of questions. You know, a potential client, you can ask them a couple of questions. And if you're smart in how you do that, they will realize really soon that, I think I see a problem here. Then they come up with that and they say, oh, what about this? So you give kind of the power to them. You facilitate. It's exactly the same thing as in coaching and selling. So the effect that will have is that someone look at you after like, you know, 30 minutes of asking questions, and they're like, you're really good.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I didn't say anything, just ask you questions so you got clarity.

[B]

It's like you help them get there. You help them get to the problem. And only once did I have it turned, turn on me. Like, you know, hit me like, only once. And I've done this. I've. I've taken this approach. I never realized it once though, when the guy was like, wow, I just realized what the problem was. Thanks. And then he went to somebody else.

[A]

And got the work done.

[B]

That's so that. But only once that happened in all fairness and, and it was just a small company. It was better off anyway. But you're right. There is so much power in helping people get to that realization. And more times than not, obviously they will look to you as the facility. You're the one who helped me get here, now help me solve it.

[A]

Exactly. The big mindset shift for a lot of designers is to understand that marketing and sales are not sleepy things that we don't want to do. Marketing and sales is helping your potential clients that you want to work with is help guiding them. If they're not a good fit for you and you don't, you know, vibe with each other, then you don't want to work together anyway. So it's not about convincing. It's not. It's as much for you to feel if this is the right person to work with as it is for them. So if you, if you're really good at marketing and lead generation, you have people lining up, want to work with you, and then you get a different confidence. But if you're not good, you just take whatever who calls you and you will get into this order taker thing. And I think everyone can be a really good marketing and salesperson if you change that, reframe that thing that it's scary to sell or it's leasing to do it instead of. I actually care about my potential clients and I want to help them. I want to guide Them. So if you can get there, then it's just training. And for me, I love training introverts, especially shy people, because they're no. 1 who become better salespeople and marketing people and facilitators as shy people.

[B]

Wow. Really? So there's that whole mentality, of course, is if you're constantly, you know, loud and screaming and everything, people are, you know, they're taken back and. And they're being bombarded with all the messaging. But when you whisper and, you know, you quietly, you know, listen and respond, and quietly, people tend to lean in. They tend to be a little bit more interested. And this is something I've learned because I've had a pretty bold and brash style of approach, but I've learned that listening is more important than actually, you know, spewing everything. So this is great. And I love this approach. And again, problem seeker, mind blown. I wish I knew this 20 years ago. This was brilliant, Emily. Absolutely. What about how would a graphic designer do this? Because not everybody has giant corporate, you know, customers. How would somebody do this to somebody small? A small local shop, you know, like maybe freelancers? How would they approach, just at a smaller scale? Or is it a completely different approach?

[A]

No, I don't think it's a different approach so much at all. It's just about, I mean, I price and I think I say a lot of things that are very similar to what Chris is saying, Christo. And it's because I just align with a lot of the things. And also because I have 30 years experience, it's not that I, you know, I just happen to meet people like him, like Blair Enns, like Michael Bunge, Stanley. Stanley, who wrote the Coaching Habit. People I got to know that I'm like, oh, they have the approach that I had my entire life. I wasn't just. First of all, I didn't speak English in front of people. But beside that, I didn't have the knowledge to know how to articulate it. I didn't, you know, I never thought about it that way because I do client work. So now when I have my more time to really articulate my own thinking and writing and everything, then I just realized that there's so many things that I've been doing intuitively my entire life, but maybe not thought about it so much. So when it. So back to what you said, how can you do it for smaller? It is the same thing. I just price the customer for what they can charge, what they can get afford. So if I feel like people can't Afford working with me, then I shouldn't even do it because that would not be a good relationship. But if I want to work with someone and they're smaller, I will also know especially if it's a B2B for example. It's a big difference working if you do a brand, a brand strategy and a brand identity for a business to business. A small company that is not that complicated because there are not so many touch points. It's not so complex. You don't have a big market that you need to create brand awareness for. You can be very smart in your niche and it's kind of easy to get to that brand awareness for new finding new clients. So that's you price that client if you want to do that work. In brand strategy fundamentals that I've been doing for the future, that course, I have an example there. I updated the course just a couple of months ago. So I brought in a small, small food company from Sweden. But they're on a business to consumer market. So it's food which is very competitive. So it's food and packaging and everything. But I do the brand strategy together with them. No visuals. So I just want to show how it is that you can follow the same framework even though you have a smaller client. They also need to know why they exist, what they want with the brand, their values, their brand personality. Because if you don't know that, you don't even know how to write messaging or do the visual identity. So you need to know who you are and then you need to know who you reach out to and what's important for them. And you need to know who your competitors are and how you want to position towards your competitors. Because it's not just about you. And then the strategy word is so loaded is basically to know from you have this position that you want. How do you want to go from where you are today to where you want to be? It's not more difficult than that. That is the definition of strategy. How to go from that place to that place. That is a strategy. So if you don't have the plan on how to move from A to B in my book, you don't have a strategy. We can call it a brand platform or something, but it's not a strategy.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You need to have that too. So you. I use the same thing even for smaller brands and it works really well. So I think this is where people can be, you know. Oh, I don't want to do it exactly like a framework, especially for creatives. I create my Own framework. I'm like, be my guest.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Come back 10 years later because it will take some time to do it. I just give you a shortcut of things that I've been doing for so long. That doesn't mean that you could be super creative within that box, within that framework. But when you're there with your client and the sweat starts coming out and, you know, you feel the anxiety, you're pretty happy that you have a framework and know what you're actually going to do because no one want to wing it in that situation.

[B]

Okay, so let me ask you then. So some graphic designers have small companies and it seems though, their strategy doesn't exist because their, their sole strategy is to exist and, and to exist day after day, be it a small bakery, a small coffee shop, something local that just serves the community. How important is trying to help them develop that future strategy to their, to their existence and into a situation like this?

[A]

I mean, I think it's just important to understand the, like, the foundation of what a brand really is, because I think we're in a place where a lot, maybe even your listeners, a few of them even think about a logo and a brand identity and they think that is the brand. But a brand is what people say about this company or organization or you as a person. And if people don't know about this bakery or, you know, whatever company we talk about, if they don't know that you exist, then you don't have a brand. Then you have a commodity that just competes with price with everyone else.

[B]

Oh, you're right. You're right.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

Brand actually can elevate you from, you know, an everyday business commodity to a higher perceived value or just anything. So would this be the same as differentiating is just differentiating yourself, or is this bringing your brand to life? What would be the lingo, what would be the mentality, the ideas that, you know, a timid graphic designer who goes to the same coffee shop every week to work.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Can use now, once they realize that the person serving them coffee is the owner.

[A]

Yeah. So if we think about that marketing, first of all, because we don't want to talk about advertising. If marketing is to make it super simple, I would say marketing is to get people to know about you. Branding is to make people feel something about you. That's easy to see the difference, Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So if that bakery, their first thing must be to get to know people, that they actually exist. And this is where a lot of people do the mistakes that it's so easy to hide. At home to redesign your things, to think about how everything looks like. But if no one knows that you exist, how are you then even going to get any new clients or customers? It's the same for the graphic designer at home, it's the same for the bakery. First, we need to create what we call brand awareness. And brand awareness is the people know about you, that you exist and what you offer. So if they don't understand that you are different from others, so they know about you, they need to know that you're different from others and they need to start comparing you to someone else and to be able to actually first time try to buy your things. And if they like that, if they prefer that, they might come back and do it one more time. If we're really happy, they like you so much, so they start referring you to other people too, which we call word of mouth, which is the most effective marketing we can do. And then you have some loyal fans. So that's basically the sales funnel. It's a customer journey. So we just need to realize that first of all, people need to know that you exist. So for the local bakery, if people don't know that they're there, what they offer that is special, then they always have to hope for people just passing by, being inspired to have a coffee right now. Or actually they just compare and they're like, oh my God, this coffee is, you know, $3 more here, whatever it is, $1 more, let's go to the other place instead. Because they don't know what they offer, the whole experience. And this is why a designer can create so much more than just a brand identity. I want everyone to think about when you visit this bakery, what are the different touch points they have from before we even go there to create this awareness. If there been advertising, if there's signs outside, whatever it is to create brand awareness, how does all these things looks like and feel for people? How does it feel when you get there? How's the interior design? How's the whole experience? How do we talk to people? Or they talk to people and serve their coffee or bake, you know, and then after, how's the experience after you been there? Maybe you want to follow them on social media or something else. So you want to design that whole experience. And if you can do that, you don't have to work with super big companies. You can do so much even for smaller clients, you just need to be aware of, I love that, how much do I want to charge for this? And you know, people would always have to think about, do some research. Like at home, if you listen to this, think about how much does it cost to have like a neon sign or whatever sign people have outside their store just once, how much that cost? How much does it cost to have really nice clothes? How much does it cost to buy all things for a bakery or for a restaurant? They invest a lot of money in things. So if you think about this iceberg and we see this top thing, what about they don't have this clear concept, who they want to serve, how they want to stand out to design this entire experience. If they haven't done that work first, it just feels like they're wasting a lot of money or creating an experience that they don't actually want to create because they do. Oh my, you know, my brother's kid did that or my neighbor. They want to save money on things that are just stupid to save money on, you know, So I think that when we start to think like that, then it's like they can pay 10k for this, they can pay 20k for this. They should definitely not pay, you know, 2k for it, because that's what they pay for a sign outside.

[B]

And you're going to be delivering so much more value than the sign up front. What about in a situation where branding as pr, let's say hypothetically speaking, that bakery sucks. Let's say it's a bad bakery and they're just in business because it's commodity. They're always the lowest price. How important is the authenticity of the brand versus the actual brand that you know, the perceived brand?

[A]

Okay, so we. Then we need. We need to go into a little nitty gritty here. So don't. This is no bs. You have to call me, okay?

[B]

Oh, I get the BS meter.

[A]

Exactly. Okay. I love it. So if I say something that is bs, just call me out one day, it's because I take some pride in actually knowing what I'm talking about. So if you know what you're talking about, you don't have to use super fancy words. That's kind of what I feel. What we want to do here is that what we call positioning. That fancy word is basically to try to come up with a wanted place that people want to. How we want people to think and feel about this brand. So we want to kind of have an aspired place that this is how I want people to feel and think about my brand. But it needs to be real. So this is the tricky part, because if you do it exactly the way you are today, then you will not become better. But if you do it too far away from where we are today, it can become a little fake. Like they're not living up to what they promise. So here's like the balance between aspired place and then we need to see. Okay, so if we want people to feel this way and know these things about us, what do we need to take action on really fast to make sure that we get to that place? And that could be small things like how does our offer look? Like, how do we look and feel? Like, how does the interior design is? How do we talk to our customers? How do we make them feel? If we identify those things and take action on it, then we can push ourselves a little bit into a way so where we want. How we want people to perceive us. So I think that's the golden thing is like how people that your identity is who you truly are. So identity is not just a visual. It's like who you are. Okay, so we just think about visuals all the time, but it's visuals. It's how we talk and it's how we behave, who we are and then how people perceive us. It needs to be the same thing. Because if we are something and we aspire to be something, but people perceive something totally different, then we don't have a match. And in personal branding, that will feel really fake. And it actually does the same with, for a company, but for personal, we always say that we need to be authentic and you need to be real. But it's the same for a company.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

How does.

[B]

How does somebody achieve this though, these days where, I mean, it seems like the goalpost changes so much with social media. It seems things are moving so fast and. And being authentic is actually inauthentic these days because you're just copying everybody else. Like, is there a way to actually do this without triggering the bullshit meter?

[A]

Okay, so what then we have to ask ourselves, why do we copy everyone else?

[B]

Oh, she's good, this one. Damn you. Okay, okay. Yeah.

[A]

Because if you copy everyone else, it is bs.

[B]

Yeah. Yes. Yeah, you're right. I think that just kind of answered that, didn't it?

[A]

Geez. Isn't that a good reason why we should do have a strategy first? Because if you don't have the strategy, then you can say, I want to be like them. If you really do this strategy and you facilitate those workshops with the client, go through this framework like you know that I have, then you will realize you already have something unique. That is you, that is the authentic you. So you don't have to say that you will be like them because it's not you.

[B]

Yes, absolutely. Wow, that's really good. Yeah, that's cool. I'm trying to stump you. It's not getting very good. Dang it. Okay, okay, okay, well, let's, let's, let's bring this back then to, to the people. Let's stop talking about brands and let's talk about your new mission. You're kind of, you know, tired, fed up, and you have this new vision and you want to refocus a little bit. What is this all about?

[A]

Yeah, you know, I think I'm not going to do a totally, like, pivot and do something totally new. It's actually very much in line with. I already do. I love branding and I am not super interested in advertising and I actually really not enjoy short term advertising at all. So what I'm, what I'm trying to help people with and what I think I'm best at is to find that kind of human touch and human connections in brands. So I love doing that for brands. I love teaching people how to do that. Because everything about a brand is to know how to create attention, but then how to build trust and deeper connections. For me, that's everything it's all about. So I, the last years I've been developing my personal brand and, and that was scary as hell and it still is in a way to put yourself out there and, and I felt like I've been so, you know, I'm so grateful that I've been guided by Christo for like three, four years on this journey and he's helped me a lot. And I think during this time I always felt like the next thing that I will do will be personal branding. But I don't want to do it until I'm in a place myself where I feel like I'm not there yet. I'm not done yet. But I don't think we ever will be. We work on ourselves and we work on our personal development for the rest of our lives. But I'm in a place where I can be myself and I can show up and I can be vulnerable and I know who I am, I know what I stand for and I know how many people who struggle with this. So if I can combine my skills in knowing how to build brands, but I can translate that and help people build brands, that would just be amazing for me. So that's kind of where I'm heading. So I'm not giving up companies, but I do want to help people do.

[B]

The journey that I've been doing for a personal brand. Why is this so important for. For people, for someone who's as successful as you or like us or a freelancer, why is it so important for them to. To focus on a personal brand themselves versus working on everybody else's stuff?

[A]

Yeah, because it's the same thing. We go back to that bakery, to anything we talk about. Like, you guys are amazing at what you do, and a lot of people do know about you, but what if you didn't have this podcast? What if you were just at home working all the time, didn't have any social media following? Maybe you're on LinkedIn, but you never write anything.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Guilty. Yeah. Geez. You know, it's like you. It's like you're right here in my head. You're good.

[A]

So when you have this dream and you're sitting there at home and you dream about these clients that you want to work with, how can they find you if you are the best kept secret in the world?

[B]

Hmm. Wow. Yeah. That's cool. So you're. You're saying elevate this a step above. Oftentimes when people think personal branding, they think personal their. Their style, their hair color, their. Their dress, their. The words, the clients. But you're saying, take this another level and almost specialize or be known or stand for something. Is that the way I'm understanding this?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I think it's the same thing. It's not the same thing as we do with a company, but very similar in a way. What I've learned from Chris and the journey, I've been doing myself, but I always been doing this for companies too. I just don't think everyone has. But I've been treating companies like people. So when I say it's not a big difference, it's because I have a different approach to company brands, probably. So when you start, you need to know who you are first because there are so many people out there, and all of us have a special gift. I'm so certain of that. We know that we have something that we're so passionate about, and we're also really good at, and we just have one life, so why can't we just allow ourselves to actually do that one thing, you know? But sometimes we need some guidance. And I think a lot of people, some might know this when they're 20, 25, most of us around 40 something and up, but when we start really thinking about, like, oh, is this what I was supposed to do my entire Life like is there anything else some corporate people think about? What if I would start my own company? Like what if, you know, so when you have someone who can help you facilitate and to find back to that thing, who you really are, what you believe in, what you stand up for, but also things that are maybe not the perfect thing with your personality. Like that's what I've been having a challenge around. Like Chris talks about this two word brand and he created that for me which is attention broker. Broke her, not broker. So and there is a depth and a story in this and that's what I, what I think is so wonderful with personal brand is not just bragging, doing things on social media, selling and marketing yourself. It's actually finding to the core of who you are. Attention broker for me is that if I go back to when I was around 10 years old, I love being on stage, I loved being center of attention. I always been really good at it, so. But I'm in Sweden, we have something called Loave Jante which is very common in Europe that don't think you're something special, don't stand out. So people told me pretty fast, don't talk so much, don't be loud, you know. So I adopted and I knew that attention was ugly, you know. So with the whole attention broker is also that I'm a people pleaser, I seek validation in other people. It's like a validation junkie. When people love me and they like my things on social and everything, I'm high, high, you know, I'm top of the world. And then when people say something bad is low, low, I don't want to go up from that. That's my sensitive soul. So if I'm not careful, I will have to, I will start seeking validation in other people all the time. And the more you grow your social following and the more in public you become, that could be really difficult for you. So you need to learn how to seek that validation from yourself and be super comfortable about who you are so you don't have to get that from other people. This has been my three year journey with Chris and now I'm in a place where I'm like, I can tell people all the things that are my weaknesses. I can also stand up for the things that I'm really good at. So now I'm more of a whole person and I think that's the foundation. When you know that, when you know what you're good at and what you want to stand up for and do in your life, then you Also know who your people are, you know, because you will feel your vibe attracts your tribe, you will feel that and then you know how to position yourself out in the market. And then you also need to go out there and actually start creating this awareness that you exist. You have to put yourself out there and to find your voice. So all of that is personal branding for me and it's just a wonderful journey to do it for yourself, but also to help other people with it and they're grown up men who, who are really tough and they struggle. But I have something, I think I have a gift of helping people opening up and I want to use that gift and that's more fulfilling for me to have these conversations with people than it is to talk to a corporate brand.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[A]

So that's the journey.

[B]

I love the journey. But it sounds like a lot of work. Right. And where I'm going with this is in the kind of world these days where people are looking for quick fixes and hacks and how to quickly get to there and looking for a formula and a recipe. Do you think that this stands a chance for everyone or is something that the select few who embrace will excel?

[A]

I think it is my BS meter that is like where people say something like that because not for you, but for them. Because I'm like, if you want a quick fix, I'm not your girl.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

That's just the way it is. I'm not a quick fix for how to become a brand strategist either because it take work but I can help you to excel and to get there much, much faster. But we still need to do the work. So it's the same for personal brands. I think that I could probably do a course, you know, pre recorded sometime. You know, probably when they have some kind of workbook and you go through things on your own. But it will be self work if you want to do this. It's almost like people don't have. I mean, of course you can deny it and say I don't want to have a personal brand, but if you even have a LinkedIn account, then you already signed up to have a personal brand.

[B]

You're so right. Damn it. I was looking for.

[A]

Because a personal brand is like it's your professional reputation so you're still there. Then if your profile suck and you're not writing anything, it's like that's still a brand, but it's just not maybe the brand you want to have.

[B]

Yeah, right. So it is, it's, it's so critical these days. Yeah. All right. I see where you're coming from.

[A]

And also, we know. We know that. I mean, I just. Look, I listened to something with Ryan Serhan. He has a really strong personal brand, but then he also builds Sirhand, which is his agency.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And media company and everything. And I think the reason why he's doing this is because he wants to build something that other personal brands can also be connected to. So when he's doing a TV show or something, he actually bring in other personal brands in it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So he can build this universe of people. He can build his world. And then if you build a brand like that, a company like that, you can sell that company. It's difficult to sell yourself, but you can sell that company. But he still, as a personal brand in lead, he is the front figure of that company. It's a smart way of doing it. So if you see most really successful companies, they have a person that is actually in lead.

[B]

I was just gonna ask Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and, you know, Bill Gates, love him or hate him, even Steve Jobs to Apple, their personal brands were almost as strong as the corporate brand. Do you think that was intentional or just narcissistic?

[A]

I don't. I don't want to go into that. Maybe some people.

[B]

That's another episode. Fair enough.

[A]

I don't know. I'm not a big fan of Elon Musk, even though I think he's amazing. Like, he's probably a genius, but also very weird things.

[B]

Yeah. And I'm telling. You'd think he would crash that, but I mean, again, I guess his brand has its audience and what have you, but. Yeah, intentional. Do you feel that it's intentional with these people or just they. They're just putting it out there?

[A]

No, I think a lot of people are extremely intentional with what they're doing, but we can see anyway that this is a way. I think this is how a lot of brands will be built in the future, because we don't care. We don't trust advertising the same way we trust people, and even more with AI Right now, everything gets so technical, and we can basically have this conversation, and maybe we are not even real. How do people know that we're real? Maybe we are just AI avatars. In a couple of months, that will be true. And it's already kind of there. And we could speak another language. We can have it in 20 different languages. So I think because of that, too, is maybe where I see that I want to do this pivot now. Because I'm more interested in developing people. And I think we will never. AI can never replace us when it comes to imagination, connections, relations, all of those things. And that's happened to be the things I'm most interested in.

[B]

Cool. Very cool. Well, that's kind of a relief, to be honest, you know, because AI feels like it's taken over everywhere. But you're right, it can't take over the people, what we embody, what we're doing on a daily basis, just what we're perceived to do online.

[A]

I mean, for me, I just see the potential in it. I use it several hours every day. So, for example, give me. I can give you an example what I do. You said I wrote a good story on LinkedIn. Yes. So what I do, because English is not my first language, so it's difficult, and I have a little bit always constant imposter syndrome around my English. So what I'm doing is I write from my heart, just on my phone, like notes. So I write a story from my heart without thinking about any grammar, any spelling, anything. Then, because I train my chatgpt so chatgpt knows my person, the personality, my tone of voice, all of these things. I take the text and I put it into ChatGPT and I let that kind of massage and do its work. So it becomes a little bit better. I take it back into my notes again. I make sure that it does so it really sounds like me. So sometimes I even write a word or something that might not be, like, perfect, because my brand is also to be perfectly imperfect and beautiful. I like that. I like my accent. I don't want to lose those things. It's my brand. So I kind of make it a little bit more raw and more me. And then I publish it. So that's how I create my content all the time. And then I can write a really long article. It still comes from me, But I asked ChatGPT to do some research about small things or help me structure things. It helps my adhd. So for me, it's like, it doesn't scare me. It doesn't take away my work. But out of a sudden, I can become the creative director. I can be the art director, I can be a copywriter. I don't need to have a big team. I have imagination. I know strategy. I can write a brief. It's perfect with AI, I have a whole team working for me.

[B]

It's a fantastic tool. You're using it the way I use it, and I recommend everybody. Like, people can't be afraid of this, they need to embrace this because it's allowing us to do more of what we love and less of what we don't love. Which means we're going to crank out better material, help more people create better content, you know, because it's, it's just helping in so many ways. So I agree with you 100%. Good on you. So I did find a nice ebook that you were offering. How do people, how do graphic designers, you know or because we mostly focus on graphic designers find help with you. And obviously I don't think everybody can afford your hourly coaching rate on a daily basis for weeks at a time. But they don't have to necessarily, do they?

[A]

They don't have to. I first of all like I am a little bit unlike Ikea, not when it comes to my business model but what I like with Ikea is that they have an idea about to do things for the many people. So when I started to coach and teach and I think that's why I'm so aligned with Chris is that I love his mission. You know, I'm not an employee at the future. I don't work with them that way. I'm an author and one of their courses and I have been teaching in the pro group before and I do offer some coaching from them but that's kind of our collaboration and then I have my own business so. But I love their mission and for me it's also. It was important to create a course that brand strategy fundamentals is for people who want to start out like that. And it's priced $199 and we didn't raise the price even when I put in like 6 hour more of content in it. It could be $1000 course it's not because it's supposed to be affordable and available for the many people. So that and now when I did a conference recently a couple of weeks ago, I was a speaker. I just created this 100 and I think it's 176 pages or something. The thing you found is basically like an ebook and I have it for free for because I want people to be able to look at that and to just see. Now I understand a little bit more what you do when you do a brand strategy. I'm not going into the exercises and all of that but I give a little bit like a pre understanding what's included and you can go to my website and just download it and there no pressure of doing anything more than just read it hopefully and see if.

[B]

It could help you it you went so deep with that. I was impressed. Like you gave. It's, it's a million dollar freebie, honestly, because I went through it. You know, you, you gave so much great information. The foundation. I'm a firm believer that the future of graphic design and graphic designers need to embrace branding, brand strategy, mentality. And you gave so much good information on there. So I can just imagine what your course would be good, so good on you.

[A]

But you know what I think today with ChatGPT and everything, we also need to realize it's the same. When you said, you know what if I give away an idea and someone steals it, like information is free today and if it's something that I'm not afraid of is that people steal my ideas because there's one thing I have too much of and that's ideas.

[B]

Wow. But you know what, true to your point, from a business perspective, the importance of a personal brand. Because if people want to, you know, you're right and you could probably go and chat and get some tips to do this and, and go on another platform, tips for that. But if people follow your brand, they believe in you, you know, and just mind blown with how, how I was today a couple times with you, I'm going to follow you. So this is I. The importance of personal brand. I just realized it just like it all came together in this podcast.

[A]

But you know what it all about know, like and trust. So first of all we need to know that you exist. That's the brand awareness. Then we need to vibe with people and like them because sometimes we just don't like people. That's just how it is our brands, you know, and then we need to trust them and sometimes also to show that you care about people, to give away things, you know, for free. That's not the valuable thing. What makes me unique and where I can really help people, it's because I'm a practitioner. I'm not a fancy like professor. I don't even know all these things. You know, I don't have an academic background at all, but I know how to build brands and I know how to work with clients. So what I do is that I facilitate. It's like learning by doing. I love, I went to several courses at ido. This is really like service design, learning by doing. I facilitate with people. There are people coming in that are so nervous, so afraid of speaking up in front of people, they don't want to present themselves and after a couple of weeks they facilitate in front of 50 people with a real Client. That's my joy to see that I can create a safe space for people who can open up and can have an opportunity to really practice. So I bring in real clients that I know that have real problems and we solve them together. So that's what people pay for is like to know how to do it in real life. Because we can read books and we can do a lot of courses, but it's nothing that beats that real life experience. And I want to give people that before they go out with too much anxiety on their own.

[B]

I love that. Wow. No, like, trust, dude. Again, Wow. I can keep talking to you all day. I love this. You know, this is not going to be the first. The BS meter was only a little bit on the low side. Not, not, not barely registering. I was hoping to catch you on a couple things. Well, listen, because I can. Again, we can have another talk in the future. We can. Whatever you need, of course. But we traditionally finish off our conversations. Okay. With a rapid fire round of questions. You know, you have two minutes to answer all these questions.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

And. And some of them are just high level, some of them are a little deeper. But it lets us know the person behind, you know, the conversation. So this is just, you know, no pressure, but obviously you're good with this. Yes.

[A]

I don't know. I just say I don't know.

[B]

Oh, no, no, no. You'll know. I'm sure you'll know.

[A]

That could be an option.

[B]

No, that's not our option.

[A]

Okay. Okay. Okay. I do my best.

[B]

Okay. Okay. Ready? Are you ready?

[A]

I'm ready.

[B]

Here we go. Start. Mac or PC. Mac Paper or tablet?

[A]

Paper.

[B]

Spotify playlist or vinyl collection?

[A]

Spotify, because I'm Swedish.

[B]

Favorite type of music.

[A]

Oh, rock? Metal.

[B]

Favorite color?

[A]

Black.

[B]

Favorite childhood toy?

[A]

A car.

[B]

Car. Okay.

[A]

A toy car.

[B]

Morning person or night owl and hide? Owl. Best piece of IKEA furniture you own.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

The bookshelf.

[A]

Couch. Couch.

[B]

Mouse or stylus.

[A]

Oh, mouse.

[B]

Okay. Favorite global brand.

[A]

Oh, my God. That must be Apple.

[B]

Oh, okay. Favorite local brand.

[A]

I say oatly because it's still from Sweden.

[B]

So favorite home accessory.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, my God. Oh, that was difficult. Something in the kitchen. I like cooking.

[B]

Okay. Okay. I can appreciate that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Okay, we'll leave that one open. Coffee or tea?

[A]

Oh, my God. Coffee.

[B]

Puppies or kittens?

[A]

Puppies.

[B]

Swedish meatballs or cinnamon buns?

[A]

Swedish meatballs.

[B]

Who would win in an arm wrestle? You or Chris do.

[A]

Oh, my God, Chris. I don't have any muscles.

[B]

Viking roots and no muscles.

[A]

No I'm so out of shape, you know, I'm so out of shape.

[B]

Your favorite artist ever.

[A]

Oh, Michael Jackson.

[B]

Who would win in a fight? ABBA or Ace of Base?

[A]

Oh my God. Abba. I don't like Ace of Base.

[B]

Yeah, correct answer. Serif or non serif?

[A]

Nonserif.

[B]

Okay. What's your favorite brand trend right now?

[A]

I don't know. I'm not so into trends.

[B]

That's a good answer because that was the meter. That was a trick question. Nicely done. True or false? A brand strategist who can't design or understand design is like a chef who can't cook.

[A]

Wrong.

[B]

Oh. Would you rather drive a classic Volvo or design a rebrand for Volvo to sign the rebrand? It's kind of a no brainer. What's. What's your guilty pleasure?

[A]

Oh my God. I wish it wasn't chocolate, but it really is. You can tell I'm not in full.

[B]

Figure, but I don't see anything. You look fabulous. What's your superpower of choice?

[A]

I would love to be able to. To fly so I could be like Superman.

[B]

Agreed. Agreed. Best place in Sweden to visit for creative inspiration.

[A]

Oh, my home.

[B]

Oh. Oh, that's cool.

[A]

Maybe we'll take you up on if you would see what I see right now. I live like 10 meters from the Baltic Sea here. So if you guys want to come and get inspired and have a conference or something, couple of days, just call because you can come here. I live next door to a spa.

[B]

Oh, wow. Even better. Sounds so, so intrigued. Okay. Okay. I need to say, what's the most Swedish thing about you?

[A]

Oh, that I. That I'm still struggling with this damn law of Janta. What is it? What?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, be quiet kind of thing.

[A]

It's. No, that's like don't think you're something special. Oh, that. Okay. Yeah, we're all freaking something special, you know.

[B]

Ye true.

[A]

Yeah, that's very Swedish.

[B]

Yeah, that's very Swedish. Okay, okay. And last but not least, what's one thing that always makes you angry?

[A]

When people that are strong and powerful take advantage of other people?

[B]

Yes. Good.

[A]

I don't like bullies. That's the only time I will fight.

[B]

Yes. And it would be scary to fight you because you'll take out your sword and you will chop us to pieces. Okay, so you did pretty good. 4 minutes, 40 seconds. See, that wasn't so bad.

[A]

That was.

[B]

And it was double what we were hoping to, but you know, between you and us, nobody ever made it in two minutes. It would Be too boring.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Most people get under five. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Oh, I know. It was. It's so great to, To. To have this conversation, you know, Like, I mean, I know we've been trying for a couple months, you know, to connect with schedules and. And all it took was a trip to Canada to be like, wow, she's serious. This. Let's do this.

[A]

Exactly. You know, I'm so. That. That amazing. And also think what's so cool with doing things like that is that when you do things that are a little bit scary and you challenge yourself, you know, I didn't. I wasn't even. I was kind of putting myself in a prison at home because I didn't like even going flying. Like, I was so scared of flying. So I wasn't in an airplane for like 15 years. So I felt a little bit like, what am I doing? Like, I don't. I'm at home and I don't even experience the world. And now, the last two years, since the future Euro tour, when I went to eight cities with Chris and this team, everything just changed, you know, it was like my eyes literally opened and I was like, oh, my God. And I know Chris. But in my. The worst anxiety, when I was like. He was like, you know, it's like we're time travel, you know how cool it is to look out, and we're like getting to another place, a totally different place in the world, and it's like we do a time, you know, jump, and then we were there and we can have exciting experiences now. Like, oh, my God, that's so cool. That's how I feel about it now. So even now in Canada, it was a small, small plane with, like, maybe for 30 people, and we were 20. That small anxiety came back for a couple of minutes, but I did that too, you know, so we can do anything that we want in life, but we just have to face our fears. And I know that I'm not the only one because there's so many creative souls that suffer from anxiety and who are scared of things. But if we just put ourselves out there, it could be like, start going out and look for those. Seek those problems. You know, going out and meet new people and actually talk to a stranger or challenge yourself and maybe learn how to facilitate with clients, all these things, we will realize that it's not that scary and it can open a totally new world for you. And that is what's happening to me. And now I just want to help other people do the same.

[B]

Amazing. You're such a Beautiful, beautiful person. Yeah, totally. My God, I can't wait to meet you one day. I'll give you a big human hug. Okay. Just so you know. Okay.

[A]

I can.

[B]

It'll happen. We put it out in the universe and it's gonna happen.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Well, thank you for your knowledge today. Thank you for sharing so much. I know, I know people got a lot out of this and I've. I've learned so much today and I love it when I'm. When I'm challenged, I'm learning new things. So. Mind blown. So thank you for all the information. So your website is.

[A]

It's Annelie Hansen. So A N N E l I Annelie Hansen2s.com so that's where you can find me. And I'm also very active on, on social media. So I'm @The Annaleehanson on Instagram and also on LinkedIn. So I think that's where I'm most active. I do have a pod. I'm not as great as you guys are. Just kind of started out, so I might need some pro tips there. Maybe you guys can come and visit.

[B]

Me, set up your studio. Okay. That would be fun. And go to a spa while we go to the spa.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So that's. That's the deal. Now we decided.

[B]

Thank you again for visiting us and, and of course, whatever you need, you know, consider us a resource for life. So. So we'll always help. But you shared so much with everybody and there's no question that, you know, we tell everybody, you know, the future for design is, you know, you need brand strategy. You need to understand, you need to grow. You need to be more than just an undertaker. Okay? You, you've got to dig deeper and be a problem seeker. Love that, love that.

[A]

Yes. That will change your life. And to everyone out there, it's your time.

[B]

Your time to shine and face your fears. Yes. All right.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

All right, everybody. My name is Massimo. My name is Sean. And you are?

[A]

I'm Annelie Hansen.

[B]

Stay creative and stay angry. Peace. Everybody in the world die I want.

[A]

To be the greatest everybody on their face I look around I feel like everybody is the fake is I make this every day and I'm in pain hoping one day I blow up from the basement statement the top is so vacant I don't even that I think is amazing Waiting for my day when I'm playing sold out shows for a.

[B]

Thousand faces hey, give me that crown Getting my way into be put down.

[A]

It ain't your place all this my town if I want that, then I'll get it.

[B]

Right now.

[A]

I'm losing it. The noose.

[B]

If it's the moosey, the stupid myth.

[A]

You choose to live or choose to dip. You choose to fight or lose your grip and lose a gift.

[B]

I everybody in the world die. Please, Lord, give me a sign.