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The Angry Designer Graphic Design, Freelancing, Branding & Creative Business Podcast
The Typography Lie – Why Lettering Is the Missing Piece in Your Graphic Design Career with Martina Flor
00:49:25
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- [00:00]
Martina Flor
I think for any designer that is listening right now, find for yourself something that you really enjoy doing of your work as a. As a graphic designer and become an expert at that. And that means that if you position yourself as an expert in this, people will come to you with that one thing, which means that you will be doing that one thing that you really love every single day.
- [00:29]
Massimo
You're listening to the Angry Designer podcast, where we help frustrated graphic designers crush the industry. Bull. And share what it takes to charge what you're worth and build badass, rewarding careers. What's up, angry designers? Let me ask you a question. How many of you have imagined owning an agency or being a famous artist or an author or a mentor? Now imagine doing that by leaving your home country and going to a foreign country where you know very little language. You've got, you know, no guidance, only a couple thousand dollars in your poc. You've got no contacts, no network, no resources, no client base, only to then go and build a lettering empire globally with clients like Vanity Fair, Cosmopolitan, Adobe. Our guest today has done all of that and is continuing to kill it. Our guest is the one and only Martina Flor.
- [01:28]
Martina Flor
Hello, Massimo.
- [01:30]
Massimo
I should have a big, you know, applause track or something right when you have this, but that, that, I think that might turn off people.
- [01:37]
Martina Flor
That's very good. So, yeah, I know that story very well. So thank you for that intro, Massimo. Wow.
- [01:43]
Massimo
So, I mean, again, I mean, there's so many places to start, but I mean, I. And again, I followed you for a little while and I've been following you, I think, probably for over a year on Instagram. And then, you know, and again, as a lettering artist, I'm going to have a million different questions because, I mean, this is just so foreign to me. Love looking at it, but I have no idea where to start, unfortunately. But let's just start from the beginning. So you were born and raised in.
- [02:04]
Martina Flor
In South America? I was born and raised and raised Buenos Aires, Argentina. And as you said, I moved to Berlin back in 2010 with a dream and a couple of bucks in my pocket, and I decided to launch my career as a lettering artist. And here I am, 14 years later. I built a studio in lettering design. I've also built a family here in Germany, and now I've switched sites and I help other designers do the same, you know, learn the. The art of hand lettering, which is a fascinating craft, and we can dive into that as much as you want, because I love talking about it. So I help them learn the Craft and the expertise, but also build careers with it.
- [02:56]
Massimo
So, so, okay, so if I understand your journey. So, you know, born, raised, grew up Argentina. Did you go to school in Argentina originally for design?
- [03:06]
Martina Flor
Right. So I'm quite regular graphic designer. So I had, you know, I started out as a graphic designer working on regular design jobs. I went to graphic design school back when I was living in Buenos Aires. And then later on, I dived into the professional work pretty early on. So when I was. By the time I was, I think, 25 or 26 years old, I was already a creative director in an agency, and I was just leading a team. And I was really miserable at my job because all of the creative work that I was hoping to do as a professional was completely smashed. I was spending all of my time in meetings and my inbox and all that stuff.
- [03:59]
Massimo
As a creative director.
- [04:01]
Martina Flor
Yes. So I had more like a. I would say, like a more operational role. So I had to manage the team and talk to clients, but not so much of creative work. And I remember that at that time, I would come back to my apartment and after a day of work and I would just sit down and draw. I would just leave the creative work that I love doing for the night. So I would just come back home, I would prepare some coffee to stay up and. And just draw through the night and then go back to work at the next day.
- [04:45]
Massimo
So when you say you were drawing, like, were you already experimenting with type, form at that point or were you just, just, just artist drawing, artistic drawing, self expression?
- [04:54]
C
What were you?
- [04:55]
Martina Flor
Yeah, I was. I was doing illustration. So I was doing. I was experimenting with illustration. And then I. As a graphic designer who works with language and messages and, you know, it's part of our daily work to just shape messages, I started experimenting as well with typography, so incorporating typography in my. In my work. And at some point I also had, you know, started thinking about, like, building a career in this direction in something that felt a little bit more creative, where I was using my illustration skills. So I created a logotype for myself using lettering, which at the time I had no idea, first, that it was called lettering, and second, how to do it. So I was just dribbling my name. And yes, at some point I realized, hey, this is a thing. This is actually something could be an actual expertise or a craft. And this is where I decided to dive deeper into. Into lettering and letter design and learn more.
- [06:06]
Massimo
So, I mean, in order to not burn out and drive yourself crazy while at work, you started doing Your own creative stuff at home. And through that exploration, you discovered your love for type, Is that fair to say?
- [06:17]
Martina Flor
Yes, exactly.
- [06:18]
Massimo
Yeah. So. And this took you to a whole new journey, didn't it?
- [06:21]
Martina Flor
Absolutely. Well, I mean, I think it was the, like, the perfect storm, I would say like, like the perfect combination of like not being happy at my job, this personal work that I was working on during the nights and in the evenings, and having like the drive to create a career that I really enjoyed. So I, at that time, I found a little design course in the Netherlands. You can imagine like the Netherlands across the ocean.
- [06:56]
Massimo
And I just said, compared to nice, hot Argentina.
- [07:00]
Martina Flor
Yes, so totally different. And I decided to invest my savings into that and left my apartment, my job, and just moved overseas to join this one year course. And that was really a tipping point in my career and life, I would say, because I always say that I found, and I think you will resonate with me when I say this, that I found in letter design something that married two things that we designers really love, which is first, the systems of the design world. You have a system, you have to work within boundaries and at the same time the self expression that had to do with drawing letterforms. So I love that overlap between. You have to draw and express yourself at the same time. You have some boundaries, it has to be readable. You know, you have to work with the, with the Alphabet, which is already a boundary in itself. You have to communicate a message. So you cannot just do anything and self express yourself as an artist. I would say you have to work within some limitations. And that is really exciting. And that's what I found in Leto Design. Like that perfect marriage between something really creative and something really systematic?
- [08:21]
Massimo
Yeah, absolutely. So were there struggles of trying to unlearn everything that you've learned until this point, to embrace this?
- [08:28]
Martina Flor
Yes, absolutely. And, you know, and on top of that, I would say that having. I always speak about this, that having that experience, I feel that inserting myself in a new location with like a totally different context, a totally different language, a totally different community, like that really fleeting flipped me upside down. Like, it really, really pushed me to. To reinvent myself, like to. I could become any Martina that I wanted to be. So that, that was also a really great experience first, you know, finding a craft that I was really interested in, but also finding. Finding myself exposed to new challenges and to new people and having to recreate everything from scratch. So recreating your, you know, making new friends and finding a new place to leave and understanding the codes or I would say the codes or the way a place works, which is very different from what the culture. Yes, yes, exactly. Yeah, and that was, yeah, that was really like a tipping point in my life and also my career for those reasons.
- [09:46]
Massimo
When, when you started the school, would you say that you were an introvert, an extrovert? Like, was language even an issue at that point?
- [09:53]
Martina Flor
Well, I mean, I've learned recently the concept of ambivert, which is what most of us are. We are all like a little bit introvert and extrovert. Like, we like to be with people, around with people, but then we like to be alone and spend time on our own. And I know that you see me speaking on this podcast and you see me on social media and I'm super extrovert. And at the same time, like, I love being on my own and doing my stuff and like being left alone. But I think at that time, you know, I, up until that time when I moved to Europe to join this one year course, I had been living in Argentina for 28 years. So that was a big part of my adult life, I would say the part of your, the life where you are shaped in a way, you know, like.
- [10:49]
Massimo
Absolutely.
- [10:50]
Martina Flor
And for me, you know, and I was carrying my life in Spanish language, a language that I knew, and then moving to Europe was really, really challenging also in that sense, you know, like, I always say that coming to a new place with a new language puts you in a position, in a very vulnerable position. And I know that any of the listeners of your podcast that live in a different city from where they were born or in different country, even where they were from the one they were born, they can relate to this. It puts you in a very vulnerable place because you have to, you become, you know, the, the, the self expression that it goes through language or that happens through language is very limited when you're speaking a language that is not your own and is not the language that you're used to. So in a way you, you have to, you have to put yourself in or you have to embrace the position of like, well, I'm learning and I'm, I'm listening more than saying.
- [12:02]
Massimo
Right, yes, good point.
- [12:03]
Martina Flor
Which can also. Yeah. Which can also be like, really like a great learning opportunity as well. And I think that that happened to me when, when I moved countries back then.
- [12:13]
Massimo
Yeah, yeah, what a humbling experience. So, so you finished, you know, you finished your type school, which, which you rocked, and instead of going back to South America, you decided to go somewhere else.
- [12:25]
Martina Flor
So, yeah, I Moved to Berlin and I decided to launch my career as a lettering artist here. So that. That's why. Where. I mean that it was a tipping point. I found this craft that I thought, well, this is what I want to do. And I said, okay, and let's move to a place where I know is a. I will find a community. I will find people to surround myself with that will understand what I'm doing, that are doing the same thing that I want to do. And at that time, Berlin was a hu for letter design. I think it had. It was one of the cities for. With most type designers per square meter. So. So yes, I moved here and. And I met that community. I joined that community in there were these meetings called. They still happen. They are called Tipo Stamtisch. Very German name.
- [13:24]
Massimo
Very German name. Holi.
- [13:25]
Martina Flor
Yes, Tipo Stantish. And yes. And I remember that joining this community was really important to me because for the first time I was in a room with a ton of people that were doing the thing that I wanted to do. And you know, that has so much power, Massimo. That has so much power in the sense of, like, knowing. Seeing other people do the thing that you want to do also helps you or makes you believe that you can do it as well. Right. Like, and. And that was really important for. For achieving that goal of launching my career. And I remember that, yes. That in a way also set the bar for the kind of work that I wanted to do and the quality of the work that I wanted to do. So set the standards for that. Yeah. And since then, I've been doing. Doing the thing as. As you say.
- [14:29]
Massimo
Well, it is brilliant because again, there's so many. There's so much out there about surrounding yourself with the kind of people that, you know, you want to be like. And in a situation like this, you know, you discovered through design, through your own passions that you want to be a lettering artist. You went to school for it. So going to. Going back to South America could. While it might have been easier to go back to South America because there's a comfort there. You wanted to surround yourself. You knew what you wanted and surrounded yourself with, like, people to kind of embrace and keep moving forward. So that's actually brilliant. Scary, but brilliant. So good on you for that. Did this help you start your agency or was there, you know, high competition, being surrounded by people that. That do what you do?
- [15:14]
Martina Flor
Well, I would say it helped me in the sense that it gave me that. That feeling that it was possible, you know, seeing other people doing it Made me believe that it was possible. And then I went. I don't think that at that time there were many, because you have to think that this was 2010. So it's 14 years ago. The lettering industry was shaping itself still. And I would say now, I'm glad to say that it's a very established industry and there's many lettering artists that are working in this industry, which is great. It means that there's demand for it. But at that time, it was like a big. It was starting to rise. And therefore, in that sense, I feel that the fact that I was surrounded by type designers, which are for those listening. Type design versus lettering. Type designers create fonts that you can use. These are digital tools that you can download and use in your beautiful designs on InDesign, on any app that you use. And lettering artists create more custom designs. So we create. We give shape to certain words or a couple of words, and we create unique custom designs for a logotype or for a campaign. So the community that I joined, it was filled with type designers. And I was like the lettering artist who was coming with her colorful designs. Everybody were there with their black and white stuff and I was coming with my colorful things. And. And so in that sense, it also helped me send out. Right. Like, yeah, like having that level of novelty in terms of what I was bringing to the table in that specific community. Yeah.
- [17:09]
Massimo
So you took a different approach, you took a different angle. You were a lettering artist, which now I didn't realize that there's a difference until you just explained it, which makes so much sense now after talking to you about this. But so you were almost creating your own market there because, you know, because you're right. 15, 16 years ago, I don't remember, you know, lettering being like it is now. Now it's everywhere. It's accessible thanks to the Internet, of course. But what were early struggles, like, what were the early struggles to have people understand the difference of what you do versus, you know, traditional lettering type? Because I know that there was foundries everywhere doing type. How did you bring your South American flair to type?
- [17:52]
Martina Flor
So I remember that one thing that I did because I had this challenge of like, whenever I will introduce myself as a lettering designer or lettering artist, people would just say, what? What is that? Even clients, they didn't really understand what, what it was. And, and I, at that time, I designed a, a print that was with the phrase telling stories with letter forms, which was my one liner to explain exactly what was my job about. So other people were telling stories through illustrations and in my work was to tell stories through letter forms. And we also, for your listeners, just to dive a little bit more into what lettering is. We as lettering artists, we give language a shape and we say that we tell stories through letterforms because the shape of a letter form can also convey messages. Can also how how soft or sharp a shape is a letterform is, can also convey certain messages or make a message more soft or more sharp. Right. So depending on the shape of the letters, you can already. By the shape, you can already get a lot of messages across. So at that time, I designed this, this print to explain to potential customers and also to colleagues what the hell lettering was. And yes, and I used to point out at it in my studio whenever they were asking. So those were some of the challenges to explain that. And I think that was also the reason why early in my career I started teaching. So I, you know, together with starting my studio, I was organizing these workshops which were directed to designers. So I was explaining and teaching what I was doing. And in a way, it was a way of also establishing the market here so people would understand the value of it and the craft. And many of the people who come to my workshops will hire me later because they work at agencies and at design studios. So they had me as the go to person for lettering. So those were a little bit the challenges back then where people didn't even know what lettering was. Which for someone working as a lettering artist is a challenge because you first need to explain and then you can get the job. But nowadays you can skip that step of explaining what lettering is. I don't use that print anymore. I don't, you know, I never point to that anymore because people already know what lettering is.
- [20:58]
Massimo
But you still have that print though, right?
- [21:00]
Martina Flor
Oh, yes, I do. I do.
- [21:02]
Massimo
Framed and like, you know, in gold foil. Everything hanging up, I hope.
- [21:06]
Martina Flor
Absolutely. I have it on the, on the other room. I can show it to you later on.
- [21:11]
Massimo
That's really cool. So. So it sounds like early on you were really, you know, growing your own personal brand in this because you had to start training that this is what you do, this is who you are. You're not just a designer. You're. And you're not a type designer. You're, you know, a lettering artist. You know, so how did that, like, did that, just, how did that impact your journey? You know, trying to create your, your own personal brand of, of being able to be identified as a lettering artist?
- [21:39]
Martina Flor
I think it was everything. I think, you know, we speak a lot about personal brand nowadays. And I think it makes a lot of sense also for this specific time in history we are living in, in which there's a lot of people doing what we do. And the only way to differentiate ourselves is by becoming more personal, by putting, you know, the creator and the artist in front of the work. Before, it was a lot more about the work. So you would say things like let the art speak for itself and you know, you will go onto websites and portfolio websites and you, you couldn't find the photograph of, of the designer anywhere. And nowadays this is so important. You need to know that you're working with someone, you need to know a little bit about their story. So the personal brand, the person doing the work is really important. And in the very beginning of my career, it wasn't so important. I feel that back then, because the market was still small, it wasn't so important to differentiate myself by telling my story. And the more I grew as an artist, the more I realized, okay, now this needs to come forward. And just to give you an example, I, in the beginning of my career, I used to hide the fact that I was South American because I thought a lot of people, or I wouldn't include it in my bio or anywhere visible because I thought people will just put labels on me because of, you know, what people think about South America is that we are never on time, that we are like too messy or whatever, which probably are my own labels. Yeah. But also it's probably my own biases about my own culture as well. And back then I wouldn't say that. And the more I grew as an artist, the more I realized that this was an essential part of the work that I do and also an essential part of nowadays connecting with the people I can, you know, with my best people, with my community. So the more I grew as an artist, the more that I put that on the forefront. And this is also something I recommend to every other designer and lettering artist that I work with. Like, never forget about telling your stories because this is the main differentiator nowadays. This is what makes you, what makes a client choose you over someone else. Right.
- [24:28]
Massimo
So you feel then that clients would, assuming that all work set aside, clients will, will make their choice based on personality over the actual work itself. If all the work was even.
- [24:40]
Martina Flor
Of course, yes. I think oftentimes this is the case. You know, people at, at the end of the day, people want to work with people and they want to understand. Especially now with the Internet. You know, it's funny, back then having A website was already a thing. Was already a thing to stand up in the crowd in, stand out in the crowd. And nowadays everybody has a website. Everybody can create a website in minutes. And that's fantastic. That's fantastic. I only celebrate that. But at the same time, you need to then create farther layers of differentiation so that someone that is in front of two different websites that have the same level of work or a comparable level of work, they can choose you over someone else. And I think oftentimes the choice happens at the personal level. When I visit a website, do I imagine myself working with these people or with this person? Are they, you know, are they delivering on time? Do they seem nice? Do they seem like someone, you know, I would be friends with? Like, all of these things go around someone's head when they're deciding whether they work with you or not. So I think this, this should all be infused in your personal brand, in, in your online presence.
- [26:08]
Massimo
Absolutely. So recommendations to designers who. So again, a lot of designers are very like, like, we started the same way. We were very held back. We didn't want to put our personality out there. What do you think for the designer who's deciding to, to develop their personal brand and, and to put their personality out there, where do they start with this, in your opinion?
- [26:32]
Martina Flor
Of course. I always say that the super. Your superpower is your. Your work is your superpower. So you always want to show your work. Show it often as well. Together with that, you want to also tell your story. So you want to tell elements of your story. What led you to do the thing that you do? Where are you coming from? All of these elements are the things that people will connect with. And this can be infused in your social media posts. This can be also infused on your website if you have a portfolio website. So I'm thinking of designers that have an online presence right now. It happens often that I visit a portfolio website and when I go onto the bio page of that website, which is, by the way, one of the most visited parts of your website, you, I find, happens often that I don't find a profile picture, which for me is a deal breaker if I cannot see your face before hiring you. For me, it's like.
- [27:44]
Massimo
Good point.
- [27:45]
Martina Flor
Yeah. So they're missing a profile picture, like a proper one, not just like a cutout of some family group picture that they remove all the rest of the family. There's also, I love seeing some of the story in the bio. So understanding where you're coming from, what your path was, why you love Doing this and for whom. So this is important. So who you are, why you do what you do, and who are you helping with your work. And so I name social media. So whenever you can infuse some of your personal story on your social media content, do it. And website, specifically. Bio. So whenever you think about creating a bio, include a photo of yourself. People want to see you, they want to understand that they're not working with some AI generated whatever, design. And, and they want to know a little bit of your story. So don't, don't forget about those elements.
- [29:04]
Massimo
So let me ask you, why do you think so? Because you've been in this a long time, long enough to remember that this wasn't a thing when we started. And people were always thinking, you know, I want professional, professional, you know, very. And it's, it's so corporate. Why, why do you think that there's been such a switch? I, I agree with you 100% on the importance of putting your, yourself out there and being selected based on personality. But why do you feel that it's been such a change?
- [29:31]
Martina Flor
Well, I think the Internet and the access to that has changed has exposed us to a variety of options which we didn't have before. And therefore we need more layers of, as I said before, more layers of differentiation to understand what is a great fit for us and what is not. So before, any business that was online was sending out versus others that didn't even have an online presence. But nowadays everybody is online and you need to have these extra layers of differentiation where you can, where you can decide, okay, this is a great fit, this is the one I choose. So I think that's the thing. We are exposed to more options and therefore we need to create more differentiation between those options. And us. Designers and artists are no exception for that. So the clients that are thinking of working with us, they are also exposed to a lot of options thanks to the Internet, thanks to social media. And therefore you need to create these layers of differentiation to make them choose you over others.
- [30:59]
Massimo
Yeah. So some very big names had chose you over others. Right. Vanity Fair, Cosmo, Adobe. How did this all happen?
- [31:09]
Martina Flor
Well, I think so I work this just to clarify that, you know, this didn't happen overnight. For those that are of your listeners that are just starting and thinking like, well, I want to land that project. I think oftentimes we say like, you know, a dream client for me is Nike or Adidas, but it takes a while to get there. First you, as a designer or a creative, you want to go through several layers of clients before you get to work with the client, like Adidas or Apple or Nike, you want to train yourself at working with smaller clients, clients that you can talk to, that you can discuss ideas with. And I always say that if you're starting out, you will be better served by your closest circle. So the people that you know, the people that you can talk to, these are your warmest leads. So instead of like shooting to the stars to those Adidas and Nike and Apple, start by, like, start by. By connecting with the people that are around you, your local community, your, you know, your closest circle, friends and acquaintances. So this is how I started. So I started by connecting with the community here, connecting also with local agencies and studios, saying, hello, I'm here, I'm doing this. Also going to local or proposing talks for local events. And this is where the things started to roll. So I was showing up at different events, I was invited to talk at different conferences. And once you start being seen and also creating those connections, this is where things start to roll out for most of us. I would say I'm not unique in that sense. And I think if you stick to it, if you stick to that process long enough, you will eventually get to work with. With big brands, because it's just a matter of time that they will reach you through any of these different places where you have been. Right. If you have been, if you have been showcasing a blog or at a podcast interview, they will find you eventually.
- [33:47]
Massimo
Yeah. So what would you say then to designers who are just putting their stuff on the Internet, putting it on social, and expecting to be found, and they're not found because you. I'm sure a lot of people are there.
- [34:00]
Martina Flor
Yeah, I think, I think this is one of the myths of our industry. The idea that you will eventually be discovered. If you keep on putting work out there, if you keep on, you know, posting on social media, you will eventually be discovered. And that's not the case. I would say that. And it has happened to some people that I met that they had like a big break for some reason. But for most of us, it's about going after your opportunities. And that means sending those emails, going to those meetups, local or also international, going to conferences, creating connections. I think for most of us humans is about that. It's about creating connections. And also I feel that that puts you. And I'm talking to your listeners now. If you're waiting to be discovered, going after your opportunities, becoming proactive in terms of reaching out to people, in terms of connecting with people in terms of going after your opportunities will put you in the driver's seat of your own success. Whereas if you wait to be discovered, it puts you in such a vulnerable place, in a place where you start doubting yourself, where you start doubting the quality of your work, because it doesn't depend on you, it depends on someone else discovering you. Right. So I think already the attitude of being proactive and going after your opportunities is so much more empowering than just waiting to be discovered by posting on social. Social media, then I will always choose that over waiting.
- [35:54]
Massimo
That's brilliant. That's brilliant. So what do you think this is the main struggle? That in your experience, because you deal with a lot of designers, do you think that from your experience this is the main struggle or, or what. What other struggles? What are the biggest struggles you feel that are doing?
- [36:07]
Martina Flor
Yeah, I think this is one of the main struggles, like the perception that, you know, some. If they keep doing the work. So I think the work is a very important thing. I mentioned before that work is your superpower, at the same time is not the only thing. So together with the work that you do, you need to be proactively looking or going after your opportunities. And I think that because we are creatives and we love doing the work and we love improving our skills and just creating more of what we do, we just focus on that. And oftentimes it's a combination of doing great work and also being proactive at marketing yourself, at doing client outreach, at creating connections, at putting yourself out there. So, yes, I think that's the biggest struggle to believe that the work is everything that you need to be doing in order to be successful. Because also I feel that oftentimes designers and creatives and artists, they focus on that and they just, just deliver work over and over again, hoping to be discovered. And at some point they start doubting their own work because they think like, well, if I haven't been discovered up until now, my work may not be as good as I think it is. So they start doubting their work, which is, you know, it just snowballs into the vicious cycle.
- [37:51]
Massimo
Yeah, it would.
- [37:52]
Martina Flor
Yeah. Into quitting altogether. So I think, yes, I think creating great work is, is one of the things you need to be doing. Going after your opportunities is another thing you. You need to be doing.
- [38:06]
Massimo
Do you feel that by niching down and you have very much niche down into a very specific. You know, I, I don't know if it can get any smaller than how you've niched down as A lettering artist. Do you think that that has helped with your. With your success? And is this something that you'd recommend other people moving forward?
- [38:26]
Martina Flor
I think what I would say is that I become an expert at something and becoming an expert at something within the design world. So lettering and letter design is still within the design industry, but I would say a smaller portion of that industry that only focuses on designing language or shaping language. And I would say that becoming an expert at something puts you in that position of being an authority and being heard. That means that people come to you with specific problems that you really love solving. So that means that for me, as a graphic designer who was a generalist, becoming an expert in letter design meant that I was attracting work that I really enjoy doing, because it was like, can you please draw this logotype for me? Of course I can. Can you please create this or illustrate this quote for me for this campaign? Of course I can. I love doing that work. You know, whereas before, as a generalist, generalist graphic designer, I was doing all of it. I was doing the brochures, I was doing the logotype, I was doing, you know, and. And becoming an expert in a way attracted my way that portion of the work I really enjoyed, which was like doing the logotype, shaping, you know, illustrating those words. So I think for any designer that is listening right now, find for yourself something that you really enjoy doing of your work as a. As a graphic designer and become an expert at that. And that means that if you position yourself as an expert in this, people will come to you with that one thing, which means that you will be doing that one thing that you really love every single day.
- [40:33]
Massimo
So I'm a big proponent of niching, right? And you've niched in a skill, you know, the other way to niche, as our agency did, was in an industry, right? You know, so then this way, it's like, while we are still generalists in what we're able to do, right? Because we're still doing, you know, layouts, we're still doing logos, we're still doing. Not lettering to your capability, but we can do word marks and such, right? You know, we still have a breadth of. Of what we can do, but to a specific industry where you have niched down into specific, you know, discipline, which is brilliant. Do you think that our niching in any way has a downside? Because a lot of people, they're hesitant to niche. And I think I agree with you. I think they're crazy to think this way. But, you know, what do you feel.
- [41:20]
Martina Flor
About that, I think, I think it just simplifies your work so much. And as you said, Massimo, you can also become an expert at a certain industry and that means that you really understand the struggles of that particular industry. You understand your clients to the core and you can talk at eye level with them and they know that you know exactly what you're talking about. And I would say that, you know, going back to what we were talking about before, clients have so many options nowadays. They have, with one click, they can have a myriad of agencies they can work with. So they want to understand which one is the right for them. And that means that if you're right for them, they're also right for you. So if you're the best agency for them, they're the best client for you. It's a win, win situation at every level. And it also means that it simplifies your work at marketing yourself because you're talking to one person. You're talking directly to, you know, to their struggles and what they're struggling with, their pain points, as you call it. And you know, your thing, you're not just talking to everybody, you're talking to them. So it makes your marketing a lot easier. You have a very specific list of people that you can do client outreach to, a very specific list of, of events that you have to attend to. Instead of like all of the events worldwide, you have a list of events where your, your ideal client is attending to. And you know that if you go there, you will meet them. So it just makes everything so much easier for you, for them. And also the distance between those clients and you shortens because they don't have to go through the selection process of hundreds of other agencies or creatives they can work with. They have just a limited variety that they need to choose from. And the same goes to you.
- [43:34]
Massimo
So yeah, it just, it's, it makes that pool so much smaller, which is better for you in the end, as a, from a business perspective. But some people still feel it's restrictive. So we'll, we'll get to those people. We'll, we'll reach out to them somehow or another. So you're, what were some of the, you know, the biggest learnings for you when you started specializing as, you know, a lettering artist? I mean, in general. And I know you're not about type, but type seems to be very cyclical and it's very expressive of a, of a decade. Right. Like the 70s had a very distinct, you know, letter style, 80s did, 90s did. It's, it's so expressive. What, what were some of the aha moments for you going down this road?
- [44:17]
Martina Flor
You mean in terms of trends that I have seen happening inside the trends or things?
- [44:21]
Massimo
I mean, definitely trends in the industry. I do find that fonts are very susceptible to trends, but you're above that. You're a lettering artist and it's still relatively new. Do you think that, you know, lettering, lettering, design, lettering art is going to be subject to the exact type of trends or do you think it's a little bit more timeless?
- [44:39]
Martina Flor
Well, I think, I think it is more time timeless in the sense that I always say that, you know, as a lettering designer and you know, as a, as a lettering expert, you can lean into the art side and, and you know, behave like an artist where you bring to the table your own style and people come to you to, to do exactly what you do. People recognize you for that. But you can also lean onto the design side of lettering, which is, you know, being that designer that has that expertise of drawing letter forms and being able to offer a solution to a specific problem without the need of bringing your own style onto the table. So there's this. I love that you can pivot between being an artist and also a designer in that sense. And throughout my career I've done projects that are more that lean more into the artist side where I was called to do my thing and just come up with something, what you see in the background, create the word love in your style. Okay, yeah, let's do it. And I've done other projects that were more like, okay, we need to redesign this logotype and it needs to fit the branding. And you know, and there you go. There I was with my expertise bringing a solution for that specific problem. So I think that in that sense lettering is more of a timeless craft because it allows you to use a very specific expertise and tool in the service of a problem. And the problems will evolve throughout times. There will always be problems to solve, especially with language because we will continue to as long as language is relevant and we continue to communicate ourselves with written language in some form. Lettering will be, you know, a relevant craft and a well sought craft.
- [46:59]
C
And I think that that's a good spot where we should end this part. Part one of this special two parter with the one and only Ms. Martina Flor. There was so much cool stuff that.
- [47:11]
Massimo
I got out of this episode from.
- [47:12]
C
Her journey and just her hustle to, you know, almost kind of like, you know, burning your bridges and not being able to turn back and forcing yourself to succeed at all costs, no matter what. I mean, I mean, no matter what. She has an incredible journey. She is an incredible artist and she has so much passion for helping people achieve greatness. Just make sure you come back next week for part two because honestly, you.
- [47:37]
Massimo
Know, we're going to talk more about.
- [47:38]
C
Her journey, more about, you know, being a lettering artist. And of course we're going to hit her up with our lightning round questions and they're pretty funny and you know, I don't, I don't want to spoil it, but she actually does better than most people when it comes to answering these questions. Questions.
- [47:55]
Massimo
She's good. Don't forget to hit us up on.
- [47:57]
C
Our socials on either Instagram or on YouTube and say hi to us on our YouTube channel. And don't forget to subscribe to Anger Management for Design, our newsletter.
- [48:07]
Massimo
It's going to be jam packed with.
- [48:09]
C
More information and tips on how to get to where you want to be in this journey. On behalf of Sean, Martina and myself, stay creative and stay angry.
- [48:21]
Massimo
Me.
- [48:35]
D
I want to be the greatest everybody on the fake I look around and feel like everybody is the fakers I make this every day and I'm impatient hoping one day I blow up from the basement statement the top is so vacant I don't hear that I think is amazing waiting for my day when I'm playing and sold out shows were a thousand faces hey give me that crown? Get in my way you'll be put down it ain't your place all this my town if I want that then I'll get it right now I'm losing it the noose it fits some loose and a stupid myth? You choose to live or choose to dip? You choose to fight or lose your grip and lose a gift oh I.
- [49:05]
Martina Flor
Feel like I'm losing my mind everybody in the world d please lord give me a significant.