What Graphic Designers GET WRONG About Their Clients. Yes, Size Matters!

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Angry Designer – Episode: "What Graphic Designers GET WRONG About Their Clients. Yes, Size Matters!"

Release Date: November 26, 2024
Host/Author: A no-bull Graphic Design Podcast aimed at helping frustrated graphic designers charge their worth and build rewarding creative careers.

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Introduction

In this enlightening episode, the hosts delve into a critical aspect of graphic design careers: understanding the differences between small and large clients. By dissecting these differences, designers can tailor their pitches, set appropriate expectations, and foster lasting relationships that not only keep clients happy but also align with their professional aspirations.

Understanding Client Size: Small vs. Large Companies

1. Relationship Style

Small Companies:

• Personal and Direct: The relationship with small businesses, such as local coffee shops or craft breweries, tends to be more personal and direct. There are usually fewer layers of command, often interacting with just one key decision-maker.

  “It's built on trust. It's built on, you know, the rapport. Very much the rapport.” [07:07]

Large Companies:

• Professional and Layered: In contrast, large organizations maintain a more professional relationship framework. Designers often interact with intermediary roles, never directly with the company owners, making the relationship feel less authentic.

  “You're often working with intermediary roles. You will never talk to the owner of the company.” [07:43]

2. Scope of Work

Small Companies:

• Flexible and Creative: Small businesses offer a flexible scope of work with ample room for creative evolution. Designers are valued for their creativity and encouraged to experiment, which can lead to personally fulfilling projects.

  “With small companies, it's refreshing. It's rewarding.” [09:22]

Large Companies:

• Rigid and Defined: The scope of work in large companies is typically set in stone, adhering strictly to brand standards. This rigidity often limits creative freedom, confining designers to produce consistent, brand-aligned materials without much deviation.

  “With large companies, the work is often less rewarding. Less freedom.” [12:26]

3. Approval Processes

Small Companies:

• Simplified Approvals: Approval processes are straightforward, usually involving only one person, which facilitates quicker decision-making and project progression.

  “Approval processes for small companies are simple and direct.” [10:13]

Large Companies:

• Complex and Lengthy: Large organizations require multiple layers of approval, often involving various departments like branding or legal. This complexity can significantly slow down project timelines and lead to frustrations such as project delays or cancellations.

  “Approval processes for large companies involve multiple layers and departments.” [10:13]

4. Risk and Reward

Small Companies:

• High Creative Control, Higher Financial Risks: While designers enjoy greater creative control and opportunities for personal growth, small companies can pose financial risks, such as inconsistent budgets or delayed payments.

  “There might be more budget risks with small companies, but you have a lot of creative control.” [12:26]

Large Companies:

• Stable but Less Creative: Large clients offer stability and higher budgets, but the work is often less creative and more about maintaining an established brand. Additionally, securing payments can sometimes be challenging despite the larger budgets.

  “Big customers have bigger budgets, but getting paid can still be tricky.” [28:01]

Debunking Myths about Small and Large Clients

The hosts tackle several misconceptions that graphic designers often hold about different client sizes:

1. Myth: "Small companies have small budgets, so it's not worth the effort."
   Reality: Small business budgets can be flexible if designers demonstrate clear value.

   “Small companies’ budgets can be flexible. They will invest if they see the value.” [18:20]

2. Myth: "Small customers are easy to manage because they have fewer stakeholders."
   Reality: Decision-making can feel scattered due to varying visions among owners or key players.

   “Sometimes decision making can feel a little scattered.” [20:07]

3. Myth: "Small clients expect less polish and are fine with quick, rough designs."
   Reality: High-quality work is essential as small businesses compete with larger brands.

   “They want high-quality work to compete with larger brands.” [20:07]

4. Myth: "Working with big customers guarantees future referrals."
   Reality: Often, NDAs restrict showcasing large clients’ work, limiting referral opportunities.

   “Big clients often require NDAs, restricting what you can share.” [37:32]

5. Myth: "Big companies value creativity and innovation more."
   Reality: Large organizations prioritize brand consistency over individual creativity, often stifling innovative ideas.

   “They prioritize brand consistency a lot more than your creativity.” [34:56]

Strategies for Finding and Approaching Small Clients

Leverage Local Networks and Referrals

• Join Local Associations: Engage with local business groups and community events to build personal connections.

  “Leverage local networks, referrals, join local business associations.” [48:30]

• Be Present Locally: Frequent local businesses you admire. Your consistent presence can organically build rapport.

  “Frequent a small business you love and start making connections.” [50:06]

• Engage on Social Media: Interact with potential clients on platforms like Instagram or Facebook by liking, commenting, and sharing their content.

  “Engage on their social media – leave comments, repost their stuff.” [50:07]

Showcase Range and Adaptability

• Demonstrate Versatility: Highlight a diverse portfolio that showcases your ability to handle various tasks such as signage, packaging, and web design.

  “Showcase your range and adaptability. Small customers need versatile designers.” [50:57]

Strategies for Finding and Approaching Large Clients

Develop Thought Leadership and Credibility

• Publish and Share Expertise: Create case studies, publish articles, and share testimonials to establish yourself as a credible expert in your field.

  “Develop leadership and credibility. Publish articles, share case studies.” [53:34]

Strategic Networking in Industry Circles

• Attend Industry Conferences: Participate in conferences and events where decision-makers from large companies are present.

  “Network strategically at industry conferences where decision-makers attend.” [53:34]

• Utilize LinkedIn Connections: Leverage your LinkedIn network to obtain warm introductions to key contacts within large organizations.

  “Use LinkedIn to ask for introductions. Don’t hesitate to reach out for referrals.” [54:57]

Consistently Demonstrate Specialized Expertise

• Maintain a Consistent Narrative: Ensure your branding and messaging consistently communicate your expertise and how you can meet the specific needs of large companies.

  “Demonstrate specialized expertise consistently across all interactions.” [55:21]

Personal Stories and Insights

The hosts share candid anecdotes illustrating the challenges and rewards of working with different client sizes:

• Chasing Payments from Large Companies:

  “We had a customer who owed us $25,000. Despite efforts, the payment never came, leading us to cut ties.” [16:23]

• Creative Constraints with Big Clients:

  “Working with BlackBerry involved managing multiple departments with conflicting requests, stifling creativity despite high budgets.” [30:09]

• Dealing with Difficult Clients:

  Massimo recounts an encounter with an ex-big-company exec now in a small firm, highlighting the frustration of unmet high standards and poor professionalism.
  “I couldn't work with this guy. I fired the customer. It was liberating.” [46:07]

Conclusions and Takeaways

Understanding the fundamental differences between small and large clients empowers graphic designers to:

• Tailor Their Approach: Adapt communication, project management, and creative strategies based on client size.
• Set Realistic Expectations: Recognize the financial and creative trade-offs associated with different client types.
• Foster Strong Relationships: Build trust and rapport with clients by aligning services with their unique needs.
• Enhance Professional Growth: Leverage the opportunities and challenges presented by each client size to grow both professionally and personally.

By mastering these distinctions, graphic designers can navigate the complex client landscape more effectively, ensuring they charge what they're worth and maintain fulfilling, burnout-free careers.

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“If you understand the differences between small and large companies, you can tailor your pitch, set the right expectations, and align with what you're looking for.” [04:07]
“Show up on their social radar. Engage genuinely and consistently.” [50:06]
“Develop thought leadership and credibility to attract large clients.” [53:34]

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Stay creative and stay angry.

Transcript

[A]

Surprising surprise. You know, all companies are not created equal, and working with all companies is not the same.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

I strongly feel that if you understand the differences in the types of companies and how they operate, it'll help you tailor your pitch, help you tailor your expectations, and really help you guys align with what you're looking for to get out in this space. You're listening to the Angry Designer podcast, where we help frustrated graphic designers crush the industry bull and share what it takes to charge what you're worth and build badass, rewarding careers. A client is a client, right? Wrong. The more you understand about who your clients are, the better you can land new ones and keep them happy, maybe even score that dream job that you're looking for. We're starting at the basics today. No industry breakdowns, no regional nuances or niches. Just the core basic differences between small and large clients, customers, whatever you want to call them. And let me tell you, there are day and night differences between these. Knowing these distinctions between small and large companies totally can be your secret weapon in managing projects, avoiding, you know, pitfalls and scope creep, and building a reputation that keeps clients coming back for more. By the end of this episode, you'll know how to navigate the unique expectations and quirks of each one of these client types. You're going to learn about the strategies that you need to communicate effectively while keeping projects moving, no matter the company size. And we're going to talk a little bit about the myths about small and big clients that could be holding you back. So grab yourself a coffee, settle in, or focus in on that commute, because this episode could change how you approach every client you work with from this point on. We need our own theme music. We do.

[B]

And like that 70s, like Johnny Carson. Kind of find some of that.

[A]

That'd be great. We need. We need that. And then we can add that when we have guests. I think that would be great. I think we need to embrace this a little bit.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So Monfre.

[B]

Or actually, you know, do you remember the Seinfeld episode where Kramer finds the Merv Griffin show?

[A]

Yes, I do.

[B]

And he sets it up in his living room.

[A]

I think that's great. Like an old sat and invite guests. That is great. I would love that. Okay.

[B]

Okay, Here we go. Cheers.

[A]

Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Today we are drinking our old friend.

[B]

Oh, listen.

[A]

Notch Moonshine by Copperhead. This is a local, local, local place. Check that bad boy out. Check that. And it's like, what, in a mason jar? Really authentic, but not really because it's not real mason jar. And yeah, they're just like a local craft place making incredible whiskey just two hours north, doing a job.

[B]

Mackenzie must have went to the cottage this weekend.

[A]

She did. She went to the cottage and that stuff just. It's just.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Right? It's just. It's like gold.

[B]

After that Tealing.

[A]

This is like that Te was pretty strong. Not going to lie duty. That was kicking the. Kicking the teeth kind of. But this is smooth and sweet, you know, little bit. There's something else I'm tasting there though. Not just the sweet bitter. It. Is it possible like the after. It's just a little bit on the front of my tongue, which is kind of a weird flavor. It. It's cool. It's cool. And it's cool that it's also like a small little shop, which is neat because. Not that, you know, even tealy. I'm sure it's not like a giant brewery. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I find a lot of these places are kind of small, crafty, you know, would they be considered small businesses? Would they be considered large? I don't know. But I do think that there's some really nice opportunities.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, for everybody. Whether it's a small craft guy like this or. Or. Or graphic designers working with small companies. Which is kind of, you know, why we're Dr. Because today's topic, of course, is the differences between working with large companies versus small companies. So surprising surprise. You know, all companies are not created equal and working with all companies is not the same.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

So I do feel that if you can understand the differences between them, you can not only probably pick better customers suited to your own personality, how you want to run business, but also, you know, better long term career. Because there are distinct differences big time between the two.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Cool. Yeah, I think this is going to be fun to talk about.

[B]

This is good.

[A]

I got so much information. We broke this down. It's kind of annoying. Let me tell you how much information is. But if you really want to be annoyed. Before we get into this, we have a newsletter called Anger Management for Designers. And you guys need to log into our YouTube or Instagram or go to our website and we've got the link there and where to sign up for this. And you know, we're shooting this out twice a week at the beginning of the week to get you set up for the weekend. And the weekend we're trying to set you up for an awesome weekend and, and give you some stuff that you can, you know, think about and kind of get you ready tips to work on while you're just like we always do. Right. We're providing stories, entertainment. So please, by all means, you know, hit us up. Visit. Visit our sites. Visit or not. The site. The website or. Or on social or whatever. And the link is there. Okay. Anger management for designers. And. And, you know, we'll even talk about this on that. On there too. Eh. It's kind of fun, but it.

[B]

Yes. Anger management. That's. That is what we do. That's what this whole thing is.

[A]

It really is. Right. We actually can change from the angry designers to anger management for designers. Wow. We always talk about, you know, what we're gonna do for a rebrand that could actually be.

[B]

We talked to a guy today, and he's like, what the hell's with the angry. You guys aren't angry? I'm like, yeah, well, yeah.

[A]

Which is funny, because this is our next guest or. No, no, our future guest.

[B]

Future guest.

[A]

He's something special plan. First guest of 2025. And it's ironic. He's saying he's calling us angry. Why are you angry? How ironic. Right? I'm just like, really? You are saying that about us?

[B]

Right, Right. He's the John McEnroe of design. Right.

[A]

All right, let's get into this before I start getting pissed off. Okay. You're gonna get this.

[B]

Oh, yes. Big and small.

[A]

So there are some core differences right from the top. Okay. Right from the onset that I think, you know. You know, and I kind of broke these down into four different parts. All right. Relationship style, scope of work, approval processes, and risk and reward for each of these. Okay. So I think these are, like, the core differences Right. Between them. All that I think, you know, are. Are legitimate to point out. Right. Like, for example, relationship style, if it's a small business, you know, coffee shop, craft brewery, like this, you know, somewhere, you know, that' that's local. Generally, the relationship style is a little bit more personal.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's a little bit more direct. There usually isn't many layers of command between you and the final decision.

[B]

Oftentimes, it's one person that you're kind of dealing with through the entire process.

[A]

Right, right. And that's that. It's refreshing.

[B]

It's great.

[A]

It's built on trust. It's built on, you know, the rapport. Very much the rapport. If they like you, chances are you can get. And you can get the job done. You'll get that job.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where, you know, the relationship style for a big company, very different.

[B]

Very different.

[A]

Often professional.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Whether it's, you know, like, you have to kind of button yourself up, you can't just go in, you know, being like, hey, this is who I am. This is what I do. No, it's got to be a little bit more professional. You're often working with intermediary roles. Okay. So you will never talk to the owner of the company. Almost never. Almost never. You will, you know, often be, you know, too three, four, five levels beneath them. Okay. And again, it's. These are intermediary decision makers, you know, which kind of, you know, can. Can really. That relationship never feels authentic.

[B]

No.

[A]

Because you don't really ever know what the final person is looking for.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Kind of frustrating at times, I think.

[B]

Yeah. And a lot of times when it gets run up the flagpole, you know, there's a lot of. There's a lot of extra work, man.

[A]

You see that.

[B]

The more eyes that see it.

[A]

Right. And everybody's putting in there.

[B]

Everybody has put their. Yeah.

[A]

If you ever feel beaten down, it's often in these kind of situations. Let me tell you. Right. Scope of work. Okay. Between the two small companies, scope of work, you know, often flexible. Okay. Very creative. Right. With lots of room to evolve new creative ideas. Okay. They need you. They want your creativity. And generally, the smarter, the smaller the company, the more open they are to trying things, which is fun. With small companies, it's refreshing. It's rewarding.

[B]

It's so awesome. I just did, for one of our smaller companies, a shoots and ladders.

[A]

Oh, my God, how ridiculous.

[B]

I love it. I know. Like, and it was kind of like, you would never get that with a bigger company. But this, you know, it just kind of fits their needs. This is exactly what they were kind of like spitballing an idea in the. In there.

[A]

How fun. Yeah.

[B]

And it's just like, this is great. It's such a cool. And, you know, it really makes you think because you're absolutely right. You have to design a chutes and Ladders board.

[A]

Think that's fun, though. Right. And again, that. That makes you feel personally fulfilled. Right. Which I would love. Where the scope work with large companies. Okay. Is usually set in stone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's pretty rigid. Okay. The changes, you know, require, you know, like, the. The requests are very formal requests. Right. And then it goes through approval process. And let's face it. Right. Like, I mean, there's generally not that much room to budge. They might look. They might say they're looking to you for creativity. They might throw that out there. As you know, I don't want to tell you how to do the job because you're the creative master. But he's looking for a ladder going up a tree with a monkey on top of it.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Just saying that's what he's looking.

[B]

Make that one of your options for.

[A]

Them and then you can show me anything else you want to. So scope of work is often very different, right? Approval processes, God knows that's huge difference, right? Big, big, small companies, simple direct approvals. Usually like we said, it's one person to approach, one person to approve. If not your one remove once removed. Right. There's, there's, it's, it's a. Easier and more forgiving in situations like this where the approval process for, you know, large companies like we just talked about, oftentimes there's multiple layers of approvals that have to happen. Sometimes it involves departments to fucking approve it, like the brand or like legal. Granted, we're not saying the small companies do illegally. I'm not saying that. But I mean, again, the bigger the company, right. Like oftentimes, you know, the different departments have to get involved. Right. And it's. Oh man, it's, it really does slow down the whole process.

[B]

It certainly does. Yeah. And a lot of times, know, some of these jobs, they're just, they kind of die on the vine because I think, I think because a principal leave leaves or something or, or somebody just forgets about it.

[A]

Dude, I can't tell you how much money we've made over the years on dead projects. They start, they get us a deposit, we do five hours of 50 and then Y.

[B]

They disappear and then it's gone.

[A]

It's gone. And they're like, no, no, that's okay. Yeah, we've moved on. That was last month's budget, last quarter's budget.

[B]

Just like, wow, you just don't worry about it anymore.

[A]

Ok. Something that feels wrong about, you know, saying, yeah, it was really profitable on Q4 because customers forgot all about the. And other people left, some got fired. Really profitable.

[B]

And then conversely, a small company within the hour generally, generally you will find out what changes or if it's okay or whatever.

[A]

I love that. Yeah, there is, there is something there. And then there's a whole risk and reward, I think, and that, that's a big part of both of these. Right. Small companies. Yeah, there might be more risk of small or budgets, budget risks. Right. You know, or budget costs. Right. You know, maybe even their priorities shift a little bit. Right. But the thing is, you have a lot of creative control when this is small company. Right.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

They're looking to you for that. Okay. Where you know, the risks and rewards, you know, for bigger companies. Yeah. Projects might be stable, they might disappear, which they often do. And they're great for long term planning of your company and your business. But, but in all fairness, the work is often less rewarding. Often.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And it's just, it's just definitely less freedom because there's generally an established brand in place that you have to adhere to. So at times it's like, are you a graphic designer? Are you just a brand designer? Are you just a production guy, you know, creating brand material? So, you know, you have to almost wonder like, is that as rewarding? And again, when we talk about, you know, our space, we have to love what we do do. Okay. So, so, you know, I, I don't know if that ticks the box forever now. Again, we'll talk a little bit later about, about how that large customer could tick the boxes. But at the hind, you know, on the offset, not often you are just a cog in a bit, in a bigger picture. Right.

[B]

You're part of the, the machinery. Yes.

[A]

Yeah. So, okay, so let's, let's dive deep into just small companies. Okay. Let's, let's dig a little deeper on these guys because generally, you know, I've spent a lot of my career working with what seems to be either small companies or feels like small companies. Right. You know, expectations on smaller companies and, and teams like this, they generally look to you for close collaboration. Right. They're expecting you to respond a little quicker, let's be honest. Right. Like, because it's like you're dealing with the owner or someone just down maybe the owner's wife or husband or partner. So they're expecting you to be on the ball a little bit. They're definitely needy. All right. But they're also a lot more flexible.

[B]

That's, that's true.

[A]

Right. So I mean, that's a big thing. Right. But the nice thing about working with these small companies is they do make you feel like you're an expert. You're valued generally. Right. They look to you for guidance. They look to you for support. Right. They're not just looking for you to just execute because they don't have the answers. They know what they don't know. They're just trying to run their small business. They want you to lead. So it's great to build experience on for a designer, in my opinion. Right. Like we talk about getting Your feet wet and learning so much. These are ideal places where graphic designers can actually, you know, grow their wing, grow their feather, whatever that stupid term is. Spread their wings. There you go. I always fuck those up. Right. You know, their billing processes. Right. Obviously they are more budget conscious. Right. Which, you know, sometimes they might need some flexible payment options and such. Right. Which is okay as long as you don't get burned. Yeah, we have been burned.

[B]

We have been.

[A]

Absolutely. We have. And over the 25 years, I've had small companies, you know, stretch them out longer, stretch them out longer, stretch them out longer until they just don't pay. So there's a lot of slime balls out there too, unfortunately. Right. That you have to be, you know, aware of. But you know, oftentimes if the rapport is good, the relationship's good. Right. You can get smaller payments on an ongoing basis, which, which help a little bit. Right. So that connection that you have with the owner, you know, is just as much a plus as it is, you know, understanding their financial situation on a whole, which can be a min. And that.

[B]

Grace, I'm chasing a big company for money.

[A]

Oh, that's like non existent. Well, and again, we'll talk about that when we deep dive in the big. Oh yeah, but yeah, let's just say that's, that's different animal altogether. Right. Man, we, we have a customer right now and for a year straight we got the same run around. We're getting it, we're getting just 25 grand US that they owe. Same thing. We switched our accounting department, we switched this. And it's just kind of excuses. There was so many excuses. And the problem is the guy that we dealt with at this company loved us. We won't ever work with him again because of this, but he loved us. And honestly, there's such a big company that it is going to be impossible for us to get it. And at this point the only thing we can do is, is like give them bad credit because you can't take them to court for this. Yeah, nobody gives a. For 25 grand.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Okay. And sure, you can strike their credit. Big deal. They're already a multi, multi, multi million. What are they going to care? Right? They just, you know, because of that relationship ended, you know, and because they were always so unorganized, we just never got paid. So we got burned on that situation. But that's, that's. Yeah, but we're going, we're talking about small companies and then I kind of, I have a little bit of affinity for small Companies and teams. You know, the benefits, of course, you know, of small company is you've got greater creative control with fewer restrictions, which again, is something that we often lack or we think we like, but we're looking for so much. We want those customers that let us experiment. Right. And let us kind of take the helm and try new ideas. I mean, that's great. When we get that.

[B]

Yes. Yeah, that's a good feeling.

[A]

And you know, and again, another big benefit is, is those generally turn into long term beneficial relationships.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right. So there is a huge advantage to dealing with small companies. Right. You know, yeah. They could be a little bit more demanding, a little bit more needy. They want you for fast responses. I get it. Right. You know, but then the trade off is oftentimes, you know, like scope creep. You know, it might be common in the sense of, you know, in the sense that they just don't know the process.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But they're letting you drive.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Which is nice.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. So as long as you let them know at what point they have to make what decision, scope creep usually isn't even an issue with these guys. Right. And yeah, fine. You know, budget constraints sometimes do play a part here, but that just forces us to be a little bit more creative. So in my opinion, small companies offer so much from personal growth. You know, you feel fulfilled. Right. The relationship. Right. There's so much good that can come out of this. Right. Which is great. There's a lot of small company myths that I want to bust here. Okay, okay. And I got 10 here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we got 10. So you know, number one, small, small companies have small budgets, so it's not worth the effort.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

And you know, while the reality is those budgets can be flexible. Right. A lot of the small companies, you know, will invest if they see the value. Okay. So it's not that the budgets are small, it's just if it's a local coffee shop, you can't realistically expect to sell them a $100,000. Just not. That's just not. Doesn't make any sense. But if you can convince them that, you know, there's a benefit to them having a 5, 6, $10,000 website that can get them some sort of traction, get them business from whatever. They could think about things like this and they're willing to explore ideas with you. So there is, you know, within reason. Although the big budgets might be unrealistic, the big work to go with those are often non existent as well. So it's relative. Right. Small customers are easy to Manage. There's a myth that they're easy to manage because, you know, they have fewer stakeholders. Okay. While you might want to believe that. Right. Sometimes decision making can feel a little scattered only because it seems like different owners might have different ways of thinking about things. And you're dealing with one, but the other one who might be the craft, the brewmaster or whatever. Right. Might have a whole different take on the company. Right. Small customers expect less polish and are fine with quick, rough designs. Wow. Yeah. Right. I don't even think that, that that is even a thing. Okay. But it is a myth. Okay. But the reality is they want high quality work, you know, to compete with larger brands. Okay. So don't fool yourself. Don't think because they're low quality or it's small shop or whatever, you can half ass anything on them or you have to give them any less. Because the reality is their competition isn't necessarily small just because they are.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Which is cool. Which again, is great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For the creative opportunity.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And what we always talk about thinking bigger, like thinking like on a global scale.

[A]

Right. Absolutely.

[B]

You don't want to put out a piece of kind of.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Half ass something and. And, you know, have them all of a sudden blow up and then. Oh, God, absolutely. That would be terrible.

[A]

Oh, no, not at all. You know, sometimes people think myth is that they're a little bit more laid back, a little bit more casual, but that's not often the case because a lot of these small businesses are often really, really fast paced.

[B]

Fast paced, Right.

[A]

They're fast paced because, again, the owners are expecting quick turnarounds on things because they're doing five people's jobs.

[B]

That's right. Yeah. Everybody's wearing multiple hats. Yes, exactly.

[A]

I kind of like that vibe.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not everybody kind of vibe. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. You know, myth. If. If a small business is hard to work with, it's because they don't understand design. That's not necessarily the case. Right. Owners often, you know, they become. Become very highly invested in their vision.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. And they, they take pride in it and they realize the importance of this. So that's not necessary. That's a total myth. Okay. Total myth. Right. You know, owners often, you know, you know, what is this? Admit the small customers, you know, are better because they're more personable. Right. But you know, the, the reality is it's often not more personable. It's more unpredictable.

[B]

Unpredictable. Yeah.

[A]

Right. Because again, sometimes they're wanting to talk to you late at night versus the day because they're run, running their business. This, that. So there's definitely a lot of pluses and minuses. Right. You know, but the reality is, and this, this myth makes me cringe is that small clients are only stepping stones and won't provide portfolio worthy projects. That's the one that hurts the most. All right. Because the reality is small clients often allow you the most flexibility to come up with these ideas.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Whether they execute on them is a different story. Okay. But, but you know, they're the ones that they want to see these ideas and they're great portfolio pieces.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I had a small customer that. And this was when we were, this is when we were early. Early on. And it was. They had a tanning. Tanning. Tanning salon. And it was a chain. Right. They had like six or seven. So they were actually small business, but they were, they were hopping, right? They were hopping for what they were doing. And they had machinery that was. They had tanning beds and machines that were unlike like anything else out there. Okay. Okay. And you know, they, they look like they're futuristic and I mean, their brand was pretty high end and they wanted a risque campaign that would differentiate them from everybody else out there. And I remember it was just like racking your head. What, what is something? What is something? What is something? And then, you know, we came up with that whole campaign of, you know, worth getting undressed for. And I mean, the, the was like for the town and for, you know, the, it was an outdoor campaign. It showed obviously a half naked person, both a guy and a girl, depending on which one you saw, and this crazy ass machine that looked like it was a giant futuristic dildo. Right. And it was just like, needless to say, you know, we ran one copy to keep me happy, but then they backed out because they did. But we use that as a portfolio piece forever. Oh, we use that for so long because it was just, it was just fun.

[B]

But they, they didn't, they didn't use it.

[A]

In the end. They back. They got too scared. So they told us that they wanted something creative and risky in the end, they didn't want that interesting.

[B]

So.

[A]

And that I find happens a lot. Right. That they're, they think that they're a lot more advantageous, a lot more daring.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Than they actually are.

[B]

Then once they see it. Oh boy. Here.

[A]

Yeah. Right. And I mean, this was just great. It was just. I loved it. Right.

[B]

But think of that, Think of something like that. That taking a risk as a small business.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Isn't that what kind of. It's about like being a little bit more on the riskier side because you have to.

[A]

And that's the beauty and the creative side of this.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because you have to think outside the box. You have to think bigger.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, what's, what's something that's a little bit more bold, a little bit more edgier to get them noticed. Again, if you help these small companies look like every other small company, then, yes, you're just going to disappear.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So these are great opportunities for portfolio pieces, which is why it's shocking that people turn away small companies often because, I mean, again, they're the ones are in need for it.

[B]

Totally. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[A]

And now a word from our sponsor. All right, designers, let's cut the bull. How many times have you had a killer website designed only to watch it fall apart because of code? Or developer telling you no, no, no. Or maybe you've held back from web design altogether, thinking it's just too complicated and too technical or totally out of your wheelhouse. Either way, it's time for a change. Wix Studio is designed for designers, removing the barriers that limits your designs. Whether you're tired of developers watering down your ideas or too intimidated by the technical side of web, Wix Studio puts the creative power back in your hands. No code required. With a drag and drop interface that feels designer intuitive. Plus no code animations and even AI powered tools, you can create fully custom websites that match your vision, every pixel, every detail. And if you're worried about the learning curve, don't be. Wix Studio is designed to feel as intuitive as your favorite design tools. Some designers here even say more. So that means you can jump right in and focus on what you do best. Designing badass brand aligned websites that'll take your business to the next level. So whether you've had enough of developers holding you back or you're ready to finally step into web design, check out wix studio.com and take control. That's wix studio.com go and take back web design for graphic designers. Now we're going to deep dive into some big customer stuff.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Same things, same, same criteria. Right? Expectations, building benefits, challenges. So expectations, okay. The big companies, okay. They're often expecting a very high level of expertise. Okay. They expect you to bring your A game.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Okay. They want it to be consistent and they want it to adhere to brand standards. So oftentimes, if it's a small company and you just want to send something over in an email, like a concept or you have an idea, you could get away with it depending on what the relationship is, these guys, because there's different levels of command, different people see it. It always has to be presentation worthy. Okay. Which is. Is fun. But it can kind of be a pain in the ass if it's just simple concepts that they're looking for. Right. It's just another level of, I don't know, what's the word? Routine. Another level that you just obviously you have to throw in there every single time. Right. You know, and then again, it's like you'll have to set up more processes, you know, to keep it official. You'll have to, you know, create milestones. Often I hate milestones. I hate when our customers are like, can you also give us milestones and create a Gantt chart? Chart? It's only one ad. What the fuck do you need a Gantt chart for? We'll get you concepts by Friday and next week. You know, like, why? Why? But again, it's like, you know, it's between the multiple approvals and the levels of just red tape, it can be a little bit of a pain in the ass depending on the large company that you're dealing with.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. It is a longer, A little more drawn out the steps involved in doing something like this. Yes, yes.

[A]

Kills me. The billing side, however, sometimes not so bad, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Generally bigger customers have bigger budgets.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Thank God. Because there's a lot more legwork that you have to do. You know, you have to dance a little bit more dense monkey dense. A little bit more in order to. So I appreciate the higher budgets, and that's fine. Right. Because don't forget, you know, they do require generally more detailed proposals. Right. They generally want, you know, they need to expense, you know, or. Or they. They need to justify this. This expense.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So, you know, with that being said, you sometimes have to go line item by line item, which can be really, really annoying at times, you know. And then with that being said, you know, you were at the helm, you know, of their payment terms. Sometimes they want 30 days, sometimes they want 60. Some people want net 90, which is ridiculous. Okay, well, no, and that was how we got screwed with that one customer because. And for the two years, it was fine. But those last three months, they were able to incur like 25 grand worth of you. Right. So we kind of got burned on that one. So, you know, so you have to be able to float. Okay. Going a month or two before receiving that payment. So that is a challenge at times. And I Don't know if people actually realize that or not. Getting a big customer isn't always. It's cracked up to be.

[B]

That's right. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Now the benefits, you know, if you have a big customer customer and, and everything's rocking and you're jiving. Right. It's stable long term projects. Right. You know, you start building credibility with them so they'll throw you more work on an ongoing basis. Right. Expand landed and then that gives you the opportunity to land and expand. Right. To work on bigger, more complex projects within these organizations. So, you know, again, they could be huge for a small agency for. I, I think, I think that would be a perfect situation where you get in with one team, expand to a second. But man, this is how we grew this company.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we did it not just with one, not just with two, but like every one of our large customers. Right. The small customers we loved, we had fun with large customers, dude. You know, we landed one place and we were like, who else can we help at your company? Who else? And that land and expand just like octopus tentacles into every corner of that business.

[B]

And that's the thing. Some of these companies, there is a lot of, of separate entities with the within. Within the major. You know, like, it's absolutely crazy. So yeah. So you make, you do well with one particular person there.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Boom. They say, hey, you should try over here.

[A]

And you know, it's funny. Don't fool yourself in thinking because it's a large company, they're going to be organized.

[B]

No, no, dude. Yeah. Often times it's the opposite.

[A]

So when we did work with BlackBerry.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. We. Okay, so we did, boy, did we own Land and Expand there. Okay. We were in so many different departments and this and I. But we got to the point where we got called to a second department and they had this huge idea that they wanted us to create and this and that and this and that. It was the exact same project that we were already doing for another team and they didn't even know this. And they're selling it and they're like, the benefits. And I'm like, you know, we're doing it over here. And the funny thing is they wanted it too. Even though it was the identical thing, they wanted it with their spin so they could claim it as their idea and could we outpace it and do it faster? But it was unbelievable. Just, it was just like, you have no idea.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

In the end, we did neither. Like, we, we got deposits for both and we started working on both and both those Teams basically got smacked for being a bunch of morons. Kind of loved it. So, you know, the challenges. There's a lot of challenges working with big companies, and that's often one of them. Right. Like, don't assume that, you know, they're organized. You're often trying to keep track of all the different requests coming from different people. They don't communicate very internally. Often there's sometimes those teams are so big and so inflated that you're getting a revision request over here, and then somebody else is like, well, why'd you make that change? I like it the way it was. And this. And this is when scope creep, you know, not even scope creep. Revision management just goes through the roof on this.

[B]

It's insane.

[A]

It's a disaster. Right. You know, unfortunately, you know, another challenge is you have limited creativity with bigger companies.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The bigger the company, the more stringent that they're going to be on their brand. Right. And you're going to have less flexibility to do the kind of. The kind of work that you want. So even though you'd think, hey, I'm working for a giant company right now, you might not get portfolio pieces that you actually want because oftentimes it's just you're almost in a production role for them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and they tell you they want your creativity, but at a cost.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Follow the brand guideline. Listen to the marketing manager. The VP of marketing also decides to do this, and then the brand has to approve it in the end. So this whole creativity that you're hoping to get that you're working with a big company often comes at a cost of no creativity at all.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right. Which is kind of, you know, like that. That. And last but not least, though, the thing I hated most, so the challenges I had most was. And this happened with so many large companies. Right. The momentum that you get on projects gets completely kiboshed because all the red tape and levels of bureaucratic in there. Right. It's like, oh, wait, wait, wait, I don't know if we can do this. We better check with this department. Oh, I don't know about this. Okay. Well, we. I know we're two thirds of the way going and we want to go live next week, but we gotta pump the brakes, dude. You know how often that used to happen? And that was a really, really. You know, so then they'd get all these change requests and this and that. So it oftentimes, you know, you may be making more money per project.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You felt defeated a lot.

[B]

Yes. There's A lot of two steps forward, one step back.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

It kills you in that kind of environment. Yeah. Which is kind of sometimes a little difficult to deal with. For sure.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So some myths and realities. Okay. Okay. So, you know, myths. Big companies have endless budgets.

[B]

Oh, of course. Right here.

[A]

The reality, though, is that it is often tightly controlled. Okay. And required justification for everything. So even though they get you a budget and it is pretty good budget, it also means that that can't be a penny more than that budget. And you have to accept all the scope, creep, all the revisions within that, get it within their timelines and do this, this, this, this, this as well. So it's a little bit, you know, defeating sometimes in that case, days. You know what else here, I've got a list here. You know, big clients value creativity and innovation more. Right. That's why they're big. Of course. Right. This is. This is the myth. Right. But the reality is, you know, they do prioritize brand consistency a hell of a lot more than your creativity. Okay. Which is why they are. Which often then becomes creatively limiting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. There's no freedom. Freedom often when you're dealing with big companies. And let's face it, even though we have some fantastic large companies, and while we did create the brand standard.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Now we are just rinsing and repeating and creating everything to our brand standard.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So the creativity has kind of, like, dwindled away. So we're providing great work and we're very happy with this customer and we're very fortunate. But, you know, we created that standard and now we're just producing based on it. Right. So that's a big thing.

[B]

Fortunately, there's a little. There's still a little element, a little wisp of creativity in what we.

[A]

We have cool projects, which is grant times. Right. So for every five, six, that almost feel like production comes two or three unique projects that they actually will, you know, flex our creativity, which we're. We're pretty lucky.

[B]

We're very lucky.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And again, we're not speaking about our current customers because we have managed to basically sift away all the bad customers. And. And who we have right now is just companies that. That we really. They value us. We value them. We've got great working relationships. Very fortunate. I hope it'll stay like this forever. Probably won't based on the duration of the industry. But, you know, we've got a good couple years so far, and I'm looking for a couple more ahead, so that's good. Right. You know, another one is, you know, big, big clients communicate professionally and respect your time. Oh, of course. Because they're a big company. Of course they're going to respect your time. Reality is, communication is often indirect. Okay. It's slow responses. Slow. And 24 hours a day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. You're getting these messages at nights, weekends, and there's often an expectation because somebody up along the chain and you're the vendor who has to deliver on the weekend because somebody else up and gave you a project Friday that they needed done by Monday. Okay. And unfortunately, you don't always have people on your side there. Right, true. Because remember, the worst thing, the one reality in this space, and I hate to say this, it's always the agency's fault.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And if somebody has a chance to throw you under the bus to protect their ass, they will. So you make sure you cover your ass to those tire tracks. Yeah, yeah. Big, big clients always want cutting edge design.

[B]

Yeah. Not necessarily.

[A]

Yeah. Most of the time they're looking for something that's safe. Yes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

They're looking for safe.

[B]

Risk averse.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because their brand's at stake, and I get that. But that often does kind of, you know, lead for a really kind of, you know, boring process. Right.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

You know, but, you know, there is the myth that working with big customers guarantees future referrals. Right, Right. But the reality is, oftentimes you are signing NDAs for everything you've done done, everything you've learned and everything you can share. So oftentimes, even though you're working with a big client.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Other than their logo, you can't show anything else that you've done with them.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So it's kind of, that's. That, that's an unfortunate part of this space. Right.

[B]

Yeah, true.

[A]

And, yeah. And you know what? Of course, we already talked about the pay because large customers have lots of money, so they pay promptly, but we know that's not necessarily the case. And you know, and last but not least, although we speak very highly about land and expand and we've managed to. To make it more of an art form.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, we're pretty good at it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Oftentimes it's not that easy because teams work in silos. Okay. And every silo within a company is very closed off. They have their own teams. Okay. And they don't let other people know what. What's going on.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So, you know, granted, I promote and profess the importance of it. It's not always as easy as, as you Know, we've been fortunate enough to be with. Right. And there's other factors. Why it's been you know, relatively, you know, straightforward for us, but that's not necessarily the case for everybody else.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

So this is, you know, the big companies versus the small companies at a, you know, there are two other, other, you know, kind of hybrid options. Okay. There's small teams within big companies. This is probably where we've made our bread and butter from. Oh, okay. We, we, you know, we've been working with big companies but we work with small, you know, tactical teams within. So it feels very much like a small business.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. Like you know, they want somebody, they want people who are agile and they have some corporate structure. Right. But we have so much more creative freedom. Okay. Think about every big company that we've dealt with has been like this.

[B]

Right.

[A]

We're able to kind of execute and push lines because we're dealing with the B2B space. And so oftentimes they're very, very protective on their brand when it comes to, you know, client facing material.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But when it's other business to business facing material, they're often a little bit more flexible with that. Right. You know, billing. Yeah. Sometimes, unfortunately, you know, we get kind of burned because it still is a big company. And we get burned in the sense of, you know, we won't get payment for 30 or 60 days. But because it's a small team, we have somebody at direct contact who has access to payment. So that actually happens faster than often things in this kind of environment. Right, right, right. You know, obviously the benefits of small teams within big companies, small tactical teams, is we have direct communication with decision makers. Think about everybody that we worked with. Right. We know who to go to to get our done and to get answers. And even if, you know, things are, are, are hitting the roof or the ceiling. Right. Like hits the fan, we know who to get to. Right. To kind of like make our case and be like, listen, we need to get this done or, or, or this is never going to happen. And we're lucky with that. Right. And you know, the only, the only downside to this hybrid option is, you know, it is still subject to sometimes corporate red tape. Okay. Sometimes they'll still, you know, have a line of approval or they'll have like a check mark or it might have to go to legal because even though it is still for us, B2B, it still is a different team.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so, but highly beneficial. And I think all of the big companies that we work with, you know, this is the model for us that we've always excelled at. And you know, it's allowed us to be creative, you know, and it's, it's a great opportunity if you are able to get into this kind of space.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The other one, unfortunately, is an ex. Big company exec who now works for a small company. And these people are the devil. You don't want anything to do with these people. Well, because they have incredibly high standards. They're expecting the same level that they had at their other business. Okay. You know, at the agencies with 10 times the budget, but they want you to do that. That at a fraction of the cost. And this is why, you know, they're only looking out for themselves.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. They are horrible to deal with because they will. They think they're experts. Okay. Classic line is. Do you know who I used to be? Do you know who I used to being? I used to be a big shot at this company before I couldn't do it anymore.

[B]

Kind of a big deal.

[A]

But it's true, right? Like, I mean, again, it. Anymore. But before I got canned, before I. I used to be good. I used to. But it's true. And these guys will make your life miserable. Okay. So it's like they expect you to deliver, you know, to the same extent. And there's nothing wrong with always delivering high quality stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But when you're doing it for a big company and, and you're going through the, you know, the jumps, the hoops, the presentation process, you're getting paid for it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Small companies don't often do that, but, but they have now stepped in the middle and they're blocking you from access to the owner. Okay. And they keep selling the fact that they're going to elevate the company, elevate the brand, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then all of a sudden, this is what happens and it's the worst. Do you know, I had this happen once, dude. And it was. It was once I lost my. And I was so close to actually hitting somebody. Oh, this is totally. I'm telling you, this was.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So I had. But it was an incredible company. The company was. And it was a pet science company.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It was like pet food, pet nutrition. It was great industry, great space for us. Right. And it was a lot of money in this space. And we had a direct connection with the CEO. We were doing great work. It was awesome. Okay? CEOs being pulled in different directions. And. And again, it was, it was only a midsize company. It wasn't by any means a large company. Right. And again, had the head of marketing and the CEO. We had access.

[B]

Great, that's perfect.

[A]

Well, then he hires this, you know, ex, you know, marketing hot shot, you know, from Toronto, blah, blah, blah. Right. Because the CEO's so busy. And then our. Our VPM marketing, well, she's. She's not involved anymore because she was on maternity leave. And so then, you know, again, we're doing the same we always did. We developed a good relationship. Often they just want. Wanted stuff really quick, right. We went to lunch and he was there and he had like the. I don't know, I forgot who it was beside him. Right. It was like an intern or somebody that they were hiring. It was like a. Like a university student or whatever. Right. But it was basically like his lackey.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

And we talked about the ideas. This. That showed him the concepts. And then, then he laid it down on me and he's like, okay. He goes, so I appreciate what you showed me, but I used to work for so and so. Oh, and when you present me concepts in the future, I don't want any of this gobbly gook in the body. I want real copy. He's talking about Lorem Ipsum. Okay? These are concepts. We had no copy. And nor was it our job to. And then he's going, you know, they should be presented like this and they should be this, and this is the st. And he starts going on and on and on and on about this. Right. You know, and this came after him telling me that the CEO has no idea what he's doing and he's going to work it. So he's telling me all this, that I'm just like, I don't think you realize I like the CEO. I like the VP of marketing. And you're telling me you're going in to screw everybody and he's laying me down, blah, blah, blah. And otherwise this relationship is going to end. Oh. And so this is how we end. And I don't know if he was flexing for the. You know, because she was young and cute, maybe he was trying to act like he's a big shot. And I remember closing my portfolio and I was like, thanks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you ever talk to me like that again, I am going to wipe this table with your. And I didn't. I kept my composure. And then I was serious. I was looking at him in the eye. I said, I don't like you. I don't like what you said about so. And so which was the CEO. And I am going to be damn sure I'm not only going to tell him, but I'm never working with you again. And done. And I literally got up, I went directly to the CEO. Okay. I was waiting for him. He comes in there, he's waiting, he's waiting. And then it's just like, no, I'm going in first. It was the biggest. It was. It was so liberating. I. I fired the customer.

[B]

I was like, dude, right off there, right?

[A]

I'm like, hey, I'm sorry, you know, this isn't going to work. I appreciate. And I did it was it. I liked working with you.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And. And then, you know, but I can't work with this guy. I'm sorry. Good luck. And also, he's up for your job. And I straight up, I ratted the guy out. I was like, hell, no. I was a little bit more young. I was a little bit more in shape. If I had to do something, I could probably run out of there really fast. The guy was a pretty big guy, but still fired up. Wow. So. So it. These. So ever since then, and it's like, I know I've run into some of these people before where they think that it's like they used to be this big shot and they want that same. Expect so. I mean, you know what? Horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible type of person that.

[B]

I've never heard that story before.

[A]

No, you've never before. Well, that one I'm not so proud about because that one I kind of lost my. A little bit.

[B]

That's fine. Yeah, rightfully so. Like, who comes in to this, to this kind of thing and says like that, oh, dude.

[A]

But you know, and I didn't care about the. I didn't care about the fact he was saying, you need to level it up. Fine, fine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you're going to raise budgets, fine, I'll do it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

He never said anything about that, but that's fine. I really. Because it's like, it was a small business and I was connected to the CEO. We had a good bond. And I heard this guy going on slimy about how he's the. The new guy doesn't know what he's doing. The old guy doesn't know what he's doing. He's of another generation. He's going to take over. He's gonna bring this whole new market. And I'm like, I obvious. You obviously don't know the kind of relationship I have with him. So, you know, and if you think I'M gonna be a slimy business guy like you, you got another thing coming.

[B]

The ego.

[A]

Oh, it was brutal. It was brutal. So those are the people that you want to avoid.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Run the hell away from them. All right.

[B]

Good move on your.

[A]

Well, you know, that probably saved you.

[B]

A ton of anxiety. Yeah. Down the road.

[A]

Salute. I know. I can't believe. Well, again, boy, young, foolish. Young and foolish. So. Okay, we're going to finish off.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay. With. And, you know, whether or not you guys know who you want to deal with or not. I mean, I know. I know the benefits of both, and I appreciate the benefits. Both. I just want to say how to actually find each one of these types of businesses, okay. Knowing what you know and what they appreciate. Right. Like, best practices for finding, finding and approaching a small customer. Okay. If you've made, you know, your decision that, you know, the small customers are more your vibe.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

More your thing. And these are the kind of people that you want to go after, Right. You know, you want to leverage for small customers, for the small businesses. You want to leverage local networks, right? And I'm talking about local networks, referrals, okay. We're talking about, you know, joining local business associations, community events, using a lot of word of mouth, because again, this is small, local, and it's very personable. And, you know, a referral means so much more than an adword, an ad or a flyer, or even like a direct mail piece, unfortunately. Right. So again, they do. They value referrals and personal connections so much that, again, if you can find a way to actually connect with them, you know, that's a great first step in there. Right. You know, and honestly, like, like, I would consider if, if, if. If I was frequenting a small business and let's say it was a small, you know, coffee shop I love, and I'm there all the time, right. You start becoming known. This is the easiest way to start talking people, whether it's bakeries, whether it's, you know, coffee shops, restaurants, right. It's a lot easier, especially if you've got some sort of invested interest in the place itself, because you love it, Right. You know, show up on their social radar. Okay. This is something where you actually, you know, show up, find, you know, find where they're, where they're. Where they're on social. Right. Engage on their social media. Right? Like, you know, like, leave comments. Right. Repost their stuff and support them on social. Basically make sure they know who you are. Right. Because then it's a good beacon to Be like, hey, what do they do? I like this person. They're constantly promoting us.

[B]

Let's talk to them.

[A]

I need something. I need some new, I need a new logo, I need a new package design. I need something. Right. Like these are really important because again, you just want to get your name out and you want to get on people's radars. Right. So doing stuff like this, you know, an insightful comment, you know, reposting something, you know, it really helps establish the rapport with that customer, with that business that you want. Right. Don't be scared. Even, even if it's not necessarily your thing, it doesn't take much to. That's man. That's often how we start connecting with a lot of the people who follow us and a lot of the people that we have on our guests tests and such. Right. Let alone the customers that we have. So, you know, show up on their social radar. Okay. You know, and then last but not least, when you do finally talk to them, showcase your range and adaptability. Because small customers need people who can do a variety of things.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Generally, you know, they probably are not looking for just one person to take care of their social and that's it. And then they're going to find someone else to take care of their packaging and someone else to take care of the. Where they can't afford that they know they are looking for, unfortunately, are looking for somebody who can do everything but, you know, under one paycheck.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right. And again, it doesn't mean you're going to be doing 40 hours a week, every week for this customer for the same price. But what you will be doing is, is you can provide that value of service. Right. Show them the variety of stuff you've done. You know, how you've helped customers with their signage, their, their menus. Right. Their packaging, you know, then their webpage. Right. Their brand aligned web page. Right. These are all little things that are within your capability. Right. And they're looking for somebody that can do all these things for that one person.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So it's fun to try to go after small businesses. Okay. It is because again, it's, it's a lot more personable and it's, it's just kind of like trying to make new friends.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. Which I get can be challenging for some people, but this is still a business. Yeah.

[B]

And if it's something you believe in, it's easy.

[A]

Absolutely. Right.

[B]

So it's, it's a no brainer to get kind of make that the leap like you're Say you're into pets or something like that.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

I'm going to work with a pet store.

[A]

Right, cool. Absolutely. Right, Absolutely. Now, in contrast, finding and approaching big clients, very, very different. Yes, very different. Okay. Longer duration, you know, longer process, maybe the reward is bigger, you know, it's up to you in the end. Right. Like, number one, you need to develop some sort of thought leader leadership and credibility. Okay? Almost everything. They're almost never going to hire somebody without any experience in their space, you know, and just kind of new to the industry because that's not what a larger company is. They need competent people that they can bring in and execute on what they need. Right. So you need to start, you know, getting some credibility. Okay? Get credibility. Get case studies, testimonials, thought leadership pieces on LinkedIn. Right. Start developing your name and your, your knowledge out there. God knows how much of that we did with the IoT space, with the broadband space, you know, when we started. And once we're out there, well, that was a very different story because we could have those conversations, but we had to get out there. Yeah, that was the big thing. Right. So you need to publish articles, you know, that, that they like and use as credibility. Right. And then, you know, you start interacting with them on that other level. Okay. Number two, you start networking strategically with these companies in industry circles. Oh, okay. Like, you need to go to the industry conferences that they're going to be at and they don't have to be massive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's always smaller conferences everywhere. Right. God knows how many small tech conferences we had locally for just small little groups that we wanted to get in touch with. Right. These are the places you gotta, you gotta start, you know, joining relevant associations using LinkedIn, you know, because LinkedIn's great for these kind of groups. Right. You want to make sure that, you know, you find out where the executives who are making these decisions are and you want to, you know, target those events where the decision makers are going to be. Okay? So, you know, if there's some, you know, especially if it's relative to a niche of yours. But again, we've, we talked too much about niches. This is not a niche episode. Okay? Forget it. So, so network strategically in industry circles, okay? This is also a to be. Okay. There's a to be to this. Right. You really need to also leverage your own LinkedIn connection. Okay? People often neglect asking people in their LinkedIn networks for a referral. If I'm like, if I'm with you and we're hanging, you're my boy on LinkedIn. And even though I didn't talk to you for a year, I see that one connection from you is somebody I know that I want to get to. I'd be like, dude, Sean, you know, hey, I hope everything's good. Can you introduce me to this guy? Right. I've had people ask me of that. I've asked other people of that. You can't be scared to use, because that is what people expect on LinkedIn. That's what it's fucking for.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

You just have to ask. And that's the thing that might be hard for some people, but you just have to ask, right? So look for people that are one connected away from you, maybe even two. Okay. You know, is maybe I wouldn't go any further than that, because then it's really far removed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And just ask for a warm introduction. That's all it is. Sometimes it might work out for you. Sometimes they might refer somebody else because again, that introduction. Production is gold.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, you know, while you're doing that, make sure it's only to people that actually like you, for the record. And, you know, last but not least, number three, you want to demonstrate your specialized expertise and you want to do it consistently. Okay? So again, when you are talking to these companies, you want to make sure you have the same story to these companies. You want to make, let them know that, listen, these are the abilities we have. This is how we can help larger companies. This is, this is why you need to help us. Right. Or how we can help you. And you make sure that that story is consistent everywhere you go. Because if you start diluting it and changing it, every time you talk to somebody in these network circles, they're going to be like, oh, wait, he said he does websites. He told me he did logos. I don't. I didn't hear about websites. Or. Wait, he's a photographer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What, What? He could do that too. Like, that's cool and everything, but, you know, at a high level, you can, you can always just say that, you know, you help, you know, maintain companies, Brands. Okay. You help execute and maintain brands. Brand strategy, brand materials. Right. And. And that's good. Like, it's a good, safe blanket across the board. Okay. So, you know, that's how I would approach big customers. So there is differences between the two. So I think there's differences across the board between these big and small companies. And there's no, there's no, there's no. You know, every business is business. It's just business I hate people who say it's.

[B]

Every business is like a person. Like they're all unique and different, exactly their sames, but there's a lot of, it's, it's made up of different people, so.

[A]

Right, exactly right. You know, what you, you, it's like, yeah, there might be, they, they might all provide a service for, you know, money or, you know, provide a product for money, but they think, they all think and operate and act and feel completely different. And you need to realize that when you're pitching these companies, there's no right or wrong. You know, I, I know many people who make, you know, six figures just, you know, focusing on small local companies. And they do. Well, we have an agency a couple doors down. That's all this agency does, is small local companies. Right. That's it. And I mean, there's something to be said about that because again, it is, it is everything that we talked about today is legit. And if you want creativity, you want flexibility, Right. Maybe that is a good fit for you. Okay. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, I always had in my mind that I wanted billion dollar company. I want a billion dollar brand. I always want a billion dollar brands. And we got three or four of them, right. And to me it was like, cool, put it out there in the universe and we got to. So we had to play that game. However, if, if it was the large company like we talked about, this never would have happened because we are not want that company. Yeah, we excelled because we found this, this funny little niche within big companies, which are these small teams. These small teams, they, they act like small companies. Right. It's personable and to us, that, that's gold.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. So, you know, it's a little bit of a hybrid in that sense, but it was our gold. So, you know, but if you know this, you can tailor, you know, your efforts, you can tailor your portfolio. You can actually, actually make plays for these types of companies. Because I do think that there's value in understanding this way. You can adjust your communication, you can manage your expectations, you can, you know, you can plan for, you know, what if financially you've got to make this work. Right. You know, and then honestly this will help you grow both professionally and even more importantly personally. So you will feel more rewarded in the end doing. Doing what you love to do. Yes, I think so.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And you can do this, you know, and you can get to those customers. Nobody wants to feel like they're just doing a job.

[B]

No.

[A]

Right. That sucks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We are in such a cool Industry. We don't want to feel that way.

[B]

No, no, it's your. Your job is to help people, Right?

[A]

Yeah. Right.

[B]

And. And to elevate how their. Their brands and. And. And. And this kind of thing. Yeah.

[A]

Like, to use your creative power.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

To, you know. You know, elevate their brand and create something that doesn't exist and help them get these results.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Nothing felt more satisfying. And this even happened recently to us. We. We had this horrible, horrible thing that, you know, we. We get in with these companies, we help grow these companies, and then these. These companies get acquired.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they walk away from it because they're like, well, you know, thanks. You helped us achieve our goal of growing and being acquired. And the man. This doesn't happen once. This has probably happened about 15, 16 different times, and we just had it happen this month. And it's just like. It's like, we got the email, and he's like, oh, we gotta talk. And I'm like, now what? And he's like, well, we got. We gotta cut the budget. I'm like, why? Like, everything's going great. And he's like, well, he goes, a testament to you. It's going too great. And we found a buyer for the company, and we've been acquired. It was a good deal. And, you know, like, thanks for. So it's just like, wow, again. But it's. But it's fun. It is fun. It's kind of like, you know, raising. Raising your. Your kid and sending them out into the world and having the world love.

[B]

That, and they become the. The greatest Right athlete in the world or something. Yeah, it's a. It's a cool thing, but it's also kind of sad. Your job, too.

[A]

Well.

[B]

Oh, man, that's a. That's harsh.

[A]

So I hope you guys got some stuff out of this, because, again, I strongly feel that if you understand the differences in the types of companies and how they operate, it'll help you tailor your pitch, help you tailor your expectations, and really help you guys align with what you're looking for to get out in this space. So, you know, if you have any more questions, drop us a line. Of course. Don't be scared. You know, you're gonna. We're hit this up on social. You know, leave us comments. Let us know what you think, and don't forget to sign up for anger management for designers. All right? Because. Because I honestly, we want to grow this. It's fun, and we'll keep adding to it, but right now, the stories and the recommendations are legit. Yo, yo. All right.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

All right. With that being said, My name is Massimo.

[B]

My name is Sean.

[A]

Stay creative and stay angry. Please slow it down.

[B]

Give me a sign, A sign?

[A]

I want to be the greatest Everybody on their face? I look around I feel like everybody is the faker? I make this every day and I'm impatient? Hoping one day I blow up from the basement? Statement? The top is so vacant? I don't hear that I think is amazing? Waiting for my day? When I'm playing sold out shows where a thousand faces? Hey, give me that crown? Get in my way and you'll be put down? It ain't your place? I'll dis my town? If I want that then I'll get it right now I'm losing it? The noose it fits some looser? The stupid myth? You choose to live or choose to dip? You choose to fight or lose your grip and lose a gift? Oh, I feel like I'm losing my mind? Everybody in the world D Please Lord, give me a sign?

[B]

A sign.