Why Clients Don’t Respect Graphic Designers Anymore & How to Earn It Back

Summary

The Angry Designer Podcast

Episode: Why Clients Don’t Respect Graphic Designers Anymore & How to Earn It Back
Date: January 27, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, Massimo and John delve into why clients seem to respect graphic designers less than in previous decades and offer their tough-love strategies for regaining expert status in the creative relationship. Through candid stories and industry observations, they unpack how the commoditization of design, technological shifts, and designer behaviors have eroded respect – and, most importantly, how designers can reassert their value and expertise for a healthier, more profitable practice.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Erosion of Respect: Then vs. Now

• Respect in Design's Golden Age (06:15 – 07:00)

  • Designers like Saul Bass and Paul Rand had "realized expertise" and a seat at the table with visionaries and executives.
  • Notable story: Paul Rand commanded total autonomy from Steve Jobs on the NEXT logo project.
    • “I’ll do it. Give me a hundred grand, give me a year, and don’t fucking call me.” (A, 08:15)

• Shifting Client Mindset (10:00 – 11:28)

  • In the late 90s and early 2000s, clients valued the design process and expertise.
  • Modern clients, often from a new generation, view design as more of an executional commodity due to their experiences with templates and online tools.

• Commoditization & the DIY Movement (12:00 – 14:50)

  • Rise of stock photography, template marketplaces (e.g., Template Monster), and design platforms (Canva, Wix) made design more accessible—and seem less valuable.
  • “Speed started beating the thinking. ...They didn’t see the problem solving, just the end result.” (A, 13:46)

• Design’s Declining Expert Status (19:05 – 20:11)

  • The process, strategy, and critical thinking aspects have been pushed aside; design is seen as a fast, cheap service.
  • Designers themselves contributed by "bending over backwards" and simply executing client wishes rather than leading.

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The Slippery Slope: When Designers Become Order Takers

• Loss of Process & Control (18:53 – 19:21)

  • With increased speed and control, clients feel empowered to run projects, reducing designers to service providers.
  • “Design became more of a service than a skill or expertise. That’s why they feel like they can question everything…” (A, 19:05)

• How Designers Undermine Themselves (20:47 – 21:14)

  • Acting uncertain, being overly casual, or admitting ignorance damages expert status.
  • "Don’t ever act like you don’t know anything, even if you think it’s cutesy...as soon as you do that, you’re done in the client's eyes." (A, 21:14)

• Clients Haven’t Become Disrespectful—They’ve Lost Sight of Design’s Value (20:11 – 20:47)

  • “It’s not that clients stopped respecting designers per se…they just stopped seeing designers as the experts.” (A, 20:11)

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Reclaiming Expert Status: Practical Strategies

1. Show, Don’t Tell: Take the Lead

• Always guide the client; never wait for instructions or just follow orders.
• Use your discovery calls to diagnose problems deeply (28:30 – 29:35).
• "From day one, I’m asking them so many questions…I am diagnosing everything about this company." (A, 29:03)

2. Speak Business Language, Not Designer Jargon

• Frame your explanations in terms of business outcomes: conversions, sales, ROI—not just aesthetics.
• “They respect results…and if you’re talking business language to them, you know, ROI, conversions...they know they can partner with you." (A, 31:12–31:49)

3. Defend the “Why” in Every Decision

• Ground all design recommendations in the strategy, goals, and intended outcomes.
• Never let a choice be “just because”—always have a rational, client-benefiting reason.
• “Nobody respects the person who’s guessing…They respect the person who actually knows how to fix something.” (A, 23:41)

4. Maintain a Professional, Confident Front

• You can be casual and fun but must exude competence and confidence at all times.
• Expert status is fragile: lose it once, and it’s almost impossible to regain.
• "Once you get it, once you climb to it, you hold onto it, and this is the way how we do it." (A, 34:24)

5. Focus on Outcomes, Not Opinions

• Always back up suggestions with data, user goals, and desired effects.
• “Everything I recommend is driven by the outcome it’s going to give them.” (A, 33:40)

6. Never Lead with Aesthetics

• Design choices must serve clear, measurable objectives. Clients don’t care about how something looks unless it’s tied to real value.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Being an Expert:

  • "Experts don’t ask what to do. They just explain what needs to be done. Right? There’s a huge difference there." (A, 25:24)
  • "You don’t ask your mechanic how to fix your car, you trust him to diagnose and fix it." (A, 24:16)

• On the Perils of Order-Taking:

  • “If our expertise…only lies in the execution part...the past few years have shown...that’s done. It is devalued.” (A, 19:26)
  • "As soon as you act like an amateur, clients start questioning you, then they're looking for more ways to question you. If you can't gain that back...you're done." (A, 21:02)

• On the Future of Design:

  • ”We will be required in the future to obviously implement taste…But if it’s not backed by any sort of data, experience, strategy…AI will take it.” (A, 37:09)
  • "Clients don’t understand what actual designers do...they dumbed it down to making things look pretty. For designers to start regaining their hold on the space, we have to elevate…regain that expert status." (A, 37:36–37:49)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [06:00–10:00]: Golden Age of design—how client relationships used to look.
• [12:00–14:50]: Rise of templates, DIY tools, and the erosion of design’s value.
• [18:50–20:50]: How speed and client control led to the order-taker problem.
• [23:23–26:11]: The mechanics of expert status and real-world stories.
• [28:30–31:12]: The host's proven client process, including discovery and diagnosis.
• [33:40–34:44]: The importance of leadership and maintaining expert status.

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Actionable Takeaways for Designers

• Reframe every project as a problem-solving challenge—not an art contest
• Initiate every client interaction with curiosity and confidence
• Root every recommendation in business language — tie creative decisions to ROI, outcomes, and conversions
• Guard your status fiercely; never act the “assistant”
• Treat long-term expert status as an achievement to win and protect

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Final Words

Massimo and John’s candid, experience-driven advice makes clear: designers regain respect by acting like experts, focusing on business problems, and leading their clients—not following them.

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"I don’t necessarily think clients don’t respect design anymore—I think they don’t understand what actual designers do. For designers to start regaining their hold on the space, we have to elevate and up our game, and we have to regain that expert status."
— Massimo (37:36)

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Listen to this episode to get fired up, think differently about your client approach, and start designing a more respected, rewarding career.

Transcript

[A]

Do you ever notice how customers all of a sudden trust their opinions more than your design expertise lately? They hired you to design something for them, yet they are running the job. Their opinions, they got this newfound design confidence, and they always want it their way. And the worst part about it is, you know, it's not going to work, but they want to see it anyway. In this episode of the Angry Designer podcast, powered by Wix Studio, we're calling out what happens when designers stop being seen as the expert in the relationship and start being treated as a service. Because once that happens, you don't run the project anymore. They do. Oh, and if you're not on the Anger Management for Designers newsletter, just fix that. Okay, the link is in the social. Let's go. I'm at a crossroads here, because I am. I am provided here with two whole horrible beers. They're both IPAs. I'm not an IPA guy.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

However, if I have to choose one, I'm going to go for the Bunny in space. Look at this little guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Cream sickle flavor.

[B]

Are you just judging it by the packaging, how it looks?

[A]

I'm purely judging this. How it looks. Okay. And it's orange creamsicle I'm having.

[B]

Okay, well, I'm going to go with the mango.

[A]

She. I'm actually going with the bunny in space because I think that is the coolest freaking. This is the coolest beer can image I've ever seen. Cheers, my friends.

[B]

Cheers.

[A]

Wow. That's actually pretty good. Wow. I mean, I don't taste this creamsicle that they're trying to, but maybe that's what's offsetting this IPA flavor.

[B]

Maybe.

[A]

I just want to point out that this beer is like 11.

[B]

Holy. For real?

[A]

I know. This is insane. I've never drank anything like this. Wow. But it's not easy. I would. I would have thought it was like. It would have been like a shot of vodka or something.

[B]

Well, that. Yeah, that's. Well, what's. What's normal beer is like 5%.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, this is like 2. I drink Chickaloobs, so that's like 3%. Needless to say, I just love this packaging so much that even if this beer tastes like crap.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

I'm gonna love it. Look at this little bunny.

[B]

Yeah, it's pretty awesome. I like my alien Mastermind.

[A]

That's great.

[B]

That is awesome.

[A]

Speaking of awesome, you know what's awesome?

[B]

What's awesome?

[A]

We are awesome. Oh.

[B]

I just want to say that I was hoping you were gonna say that.

[A]

We are awesome.

[B]

We are.

[A]

So let me. We. Right before the holidays. Okay? So we're talking like five weeks ago. Okay. Not even four weeks ago. Okay. With a week off in between. Had a customer reach out. It was like an emergency project.

[B]

Oh, my God, was there hair on fire?

[A]

There was a marketing emergency. No, really, There was. There was a project that was absolutely insane. It was a hundred page book, okay? And. And it was an insane project. And they were like, you know what? You know, we need help. Can you please do this? You know, And I was like, well, let me, let me look. Let me figure this out. Look through it. Talk to them. You know, did my discovery questions. Found out what the problem was with the old book, why they asked us to do this new book for real.

[B]

I saw the old book.

[A]

It was hard. It was hard to swallow. Budget was great, but the reality is it. It had such a tight timeline. It was insane to take on. Okay, but we have our process. Okay, we have a process. I figured, you know what, we had like a week before the holidays and then we had two weeks after the holidays. If we did all the planning, if we had everything approved, I lined everything up just like a regular process and we blasted through it. We could do this project. Okay?

[B]

Y.

[A]

People said it couldn't be done. Who said it couldn't be done? There were naysayers inside and out. And it was in. It was a. Like I said, it was a stupid, ridiculous job that we, you know, we. And I don't like asking anybody to work after hours. So that was the big challenge. Could be done.

[B]

Was there some of that?

[A]

No, there wasn't.

[B]

This is what I'm saying. I didn't see anybody.

[A]

Needless to say, you know, we delivered the proof today. Actually, the third proof, as in, you know, first one was the beginning of the week. We had two rounds of revisions. Today was the final sign off proof. Now we're prepping it for film, which we have two days to do for press. Wow, this was insane. And the clients said that they knew we could get it done. They said that, you know, they knew it was an insane ask. And they made sure that it was, you know, a very generous budget in order to make it ask. And. And it was. And. And we were able to kill it. Okay.

[B]

And again, it was ahead of time.

[A]

And it was well within. Within really. I mean, ultimately was.

[B]

I thought it was the. The. The end of the month was.

[A]

The final print date was the end of the month. Oh, that's. That's when it had to be printed for so Again, So we had 10 days prior to that. So needless to say, you know, in their eyes, they knew we had a process. They knew we were experts at what we did. They, you know, they have dealt with us in the. Knew that if we said if we took on a job, it was only if we were 100% certain we could deliver.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And we did. And they said that they were never nervous throughout the whole. Because they viewed us as experts.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I talk about this a lot, the importance of being viewed as an expert in the customer's eyes. Because there's so much that goes along with this. Right. Like, there was a time, you know, when designers did more than just make things look pretty. Okay. And, and, and again, you know, they were viewed as something more than decorators. Okay. They weren't just asked to make things look pretty. They were asked for the strategic insight. They were. They were, you know, asked, you know, for how are my clients going to act? You know, what is this outcome? And designers took on more than just making things look good. Right. Like, they. They were actually at the head of the table with engineering, with the C suite. Right. They were right there. And this was. This was an amazing time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and it's been like that when you look back at some of the most, like the Saul Basses of the world, the Paul Rands of the world. I mean, these guys weren't just like, you know, designers hiding in a corner making things look pretty.

[B]

Absolutely not. They were. They were the team leads.

[A]

Right? Seriously.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I mean, even Saul Bass was going, you know, he would find out everything about a company, how they operated, what they did, where they were falling short. He did his research, and he was integrated into that company probably deeper than most employees were. You know, it was kind of like a. A great time for it. Right. And it's because designers, they were. They were experts. Yes. You know, and, and, and there was this realized expertise that they had that, you know, that other people didn't have. And it was more than just the tools and the stuff that we did.

[B]

Yes, yes. It was less of, you know, less meddlesome interference with the client.

[A]

Clients didn't.

[B]

They didn't do that at all. Because you hired.

[A]

You.

[B]

You hire a Saul Bass or you hire a Paul Rand, you're not going to tell him what to do.

[A]

Well, okay. Exactly. Steve Jobs.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Steve Jobs is notoriously one of the hardest people ever to. To work for. You hear stories about him. He was just not a nice person. Well, got to him.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Nobody likes how he went out, right? He was a visionary, very visionary. But I mean, at the same time, he was crude, tough. You know, he was. He was rude to people. He was very elitist. Okay? But he believed in the design through and through. And when he. Before returning to Apple, right, He was at the next computer company. And. And, right. He did his. He did that, that whole box. It was really cool. And he hired Paul Rand to create the logo. Okay. For. At that time, he paid him like a hundred grand, which would have been worth like half a million right now. Okay, yeah, this is like mid-80s. Okay, mid-80s. But Paul Rand was an expert. He knew. He knew so much. He had developed this expertise, this, this. This Persona, this vibe. He had all the. And Steve Jobs, one of the most difficult, cockiest, arrogant, you know, people out there in the space wanted him to work on his stuff. And Paul Rand basically was like, you know what? I'll do it. Give me a hundred grand, give me a year, and don't fucking call me. Don't bug me, don't bug me. I will take care of this myself. And of all people, Steve Jobs, the guy who's usually. I know, right? He was like, sure, whatever you want. And it's true. And it's like he let him take over, sure enough. He didn't even take a year. I think it was like half that time. But needless to say, like, you see videos, he was. Steve Jobs was like a kid. They were looking through the brand book, right? Paul Rand was like, I will give you one concept because it's going to be the right concept for you. You want to talk about egos? I'm not sure if it was a battle of the titans on this one, but needless to say, you know, Steve Jobs realized that it designed. And design wasn't just how something looks. No. But it was why something works. And that's a big difference. Right. That's why he embraced that into everything Apple did from that point forward. Right. He embraced it, you know, from their computers, the ipod, all the innovations. Granted, you know, he may have had, you know, awesome designers underneath him working on this stuff, like Joni, I've. Right. But needless to say, he embraced that and he respected it.

[B]

Yes, he understood that.

[A]

Understood, Right. And again, because he saw it as a niche expertise. Right, okay. They were experts, you know, And. And that's the way he viewed it. And I think that's what has been lacking in design for the past few decades. It's. We've. We're blessed because, you know, we're in a small percentage of. Of agencies out there that are actually spanning three decades. Okay. Like, we're like 25, 26, 27 years in business.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. We've seen this shift in this space so much, and, you know, it's crazy to think there were people when we started, you know, late. Late 90s, early 2000s, totally respected design. They reached out to us because we were designers. They let us be at that table as designers. They asked us questions. You know, it was. It was a completely different relationship than what I'm seeing. Designers these days, you mean? Yeah, yeah. With clients in general. Right, right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And again, it was. It was to the point where we were invited in and we were inv. To special meetings that oftentimes people didn't actually see. Right. But, you know, I've seen that fade. Okay. And what has happened is the people that we used to deal with, you know, two decades, you know, two and a half decades ago, they respected it.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

But they moved on. Right. They became like, you know, marketing VPs, some of them C Suite, some of them, you know, went and started their own businesses. Right, right. And what happened is now, you know, not that the next generation, by any means, are a bunch of assholes or they're entitled, even though a lot of them are millennials. But what I'm saying is, you know, they were groomed to understand design differently than the ones, you know, previous generation.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because a lot. A lot changed in the past few decades, okay, in our space. And I think, you know, again, they. They were groomed because they, in the end, they saw design as something that it was different than what it was back when Steve Jobs hired Paul Rand and Saul Bass would integrate himself into companies. Right. Like, you know, started with whole. You know, design slowly started being commoditized. Right. Okay. And that sucks. Right. But, you know, early 2000s, right. Templates started showing up, okay. Photographers started, you know, being less about getting. Hiring a photographer and more about buying.

[B]

Going to the stock. Yeah, yeah, right.

[A]

There were subscription services that were popping up, marketplaces. Right? So all of a sudden, you know, that allure of hiring a designer, you know, you needed a designer to solve a problem and make something look good. Right? Okay. Right. Well, now. Now, options.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Before you had. If you were going to do this on your own, you would have to get a photographer.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You'd have to book a printer. You had this already baked in with your agency of choice. Right. We would always handle that kind of.

[A]

That's right. And with a lot of Problems with. Yep.

[B]

Yeah. Now it's like, hey, you know what? I can buy this stock photography. I've got. I've got my Cork Express on my. On my handy little Mac. I'm gonna have a crack at this and see if I can figure out.

[A]

And then, like, I think even there were early template, like, monster templates and stuff.

[B]

Really.

[A]

Also in the 2000s. In the 2000s, there was a lot of early template template websites out there that it did start. I mean, it wasn't even that they needed to, you know, embrace the. The software.

[B]

Okay, this is.

[A]

This is interesting.

[B]

I had no idea.

[A]

It just totally catapulted past that.

[B]

So there was like a canva in the two. In the early 2000s.

[A]

No, there wasn't a Canva. Okay.

[B]

Something like that.

[A]

Canva was older. Is older than we think. Canva's been around for over 10 years. Like, the Canva is like, you know, like in teens, like the early mid teens. So, I mean, the. But before that was like, template monster sites and. And they existed for people. Wow. So all of a sudden it started, you know, commoditizing the end result. Right. And people could start getting templates instead of trying to hire us designers to custom build these things for them. Okay.

[B]

Save some money.

[A]

And then all of a sudden, speed started coming in. Speed. And it started beating the thinking involved to get there. Because now I can get a template. Yeah. Instead of having to hire a designer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To think through the problem. Well, you know, we don't have to think through anything because here's an end result. So now speed became a thing. Right. Which again, devalued the thinking component of what we did even more so. So you've got templates that started at the end, the speed component. Everybody's like, I need this faster, faster. So then they did that. Right. So now. Now that design is as a commodity.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. And now speed is becoming more expected because now you can see it. You know, it started slowly removing the design, the design thinking portion of the process, because now templates are at the end of the process. Well, shit, we just killed the first two thirds of the process. Yeah. Look how much faster it was.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They didn't acknowledge the thinking behind it. Okay, so that's.

[B]

Yeah. You approach the clients and tell them that this is what it's going to take to do this. Like, they see this on this. On this site.

[A]

Like, well.

[B]

Well, it's done here. How long does it take? Why? Why does it take so long?

[A]

I can just get this WordPress template or this and be done with it. Because they didn't see the problem solving. Exactly. They didn't see that there was a lot of planning behind, there was a lot of intention behind what they did, what designers did. They just saw the end result. Yeah. Okay. So there's a big problem. So then all of a sudden, you know, with that being said, all these tools. So let's put it this way. So then speed that up a little bit more. So now all of a sudden, we're mid mid 2000, 2010, 2012, right? All these apps like Canvas start showing up in the Marketplace, you know, WordPress, allowing people, empowering people to do shit themselves. So now it's like when speed isn't enough, and they're like, well, I can send it to Sean, you know, but I might have to wait three days. So instead I'm just going to go online and do it this afternoon.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So now they even. They. So they, they kiboshed your thinking. Okay. Now they're kiboshing your skills. The fact that you knew how to use the tools, they mixed that because now they're doing.

[B]

So it doesn't matter.

[A]

All the, all the while, what's happening is it's giving them this illusion of being able to do it all themselves. Right. But they're also getting rid of the most important parts of design because again, this is a new generation. This is what they're being groomed to understand, what design actually was.

[B]

It's a one, one size fits all, kind of.

[A]

Right? Yeah. It's like, hey, here's my hammer. I'll make it work for everything. And then last but not least, you know, then all of a sudden, you know, they have all these options, all these abilities. They can get things faster. They have a huge world of selection, Right. So now all of a sudden, they feel like they're in control. And they feel like they are in control not because they can problem solve, because they don't even know about the problem solving part. They think that design is solely about that end result. Right. And now a word from our sponsor designers. Let's be honest, Web design should be a graphic designer's job. It's bold, it's creative, it's experimental, and at its core, or it is design. Layout just brought to life online. But somewhere along the way, graphic designers lost it. Developers took over, tools got complicated, and creativity took a backseat to code. Thing is, clients still expect us to bring their brand to life everywhere. And if we're not offering web design today, you're leaving money and potential Opportunities on the table. That's where wix Studio comes in. It's the web platform built for designers with a drag and drop interface that feels like a designer's tool. Plus no code, animations and AI powered tools. You can create fully custom websites that match your vision. Every pixel, every layout, every detail. So whether it's a simple branded brochure site or an online portfolio, or even a full blown ecommerce experience, wix Studio makes it all possible for graphic designers with tools that think like a designer, not like a developer. The web doesn't need more templates. It needs you and your creativity unleashed. And Wix Studio is going to give you that opportunity. So stop giving creativity away and take back the web for design. Visit wixstudio.com and design the web them the way it is meant to be. And so this is kind of what's, what's happened because again, the people who used to believe in design, and there are still many that do, you know, but they were moved. They, they, they moved up the ranks. They were.

[B]

Yep, yep.

[A]

Or wherever else. And this whole new two decades worth of new thinkers, new doers, new people, just, they didn't see designers for what they were. They saw them as just the doers, the executioners. And unfortunately, designers didn't help that. No. Because they were like, hey, I still want to do this. I still want to be a graphic designer. I'll, I'll start doing things your way. I'll bend, I'll bend over backwards. I'll do things. So this is how this whole thing started falling apart.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

On how, how we had lost respect.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. It's kind of like a river, you know what I mean? And you can, you know, you can kayak down the river and it's nice. Then all of a sudden the speed picks up and that tends to kind of sweep you away with, with. So, yeah, I think the speed thing was, was.

[A]

Oh, there's a few parts of that. Right. And control. Imagine now giving them, even with the speed, they could control this thing. Yeah.

[B]

You have to sacrifice some things like for, just to get that done. So naturally process is going to get.

[A]

Chucked out, chucked out the window. And then design became more of a service. Yes. Than a skill or expertise. Exactly. Okay. Which is why they feel like now they're in charge of the design process, which is why they feel like they can question everything and, and control the direction and how. Because designers probably, you know, they meant.

[B]

Well by doing things. Yeah, yeah. This wasn't their intent. I'M sure.

[A]

And sure. And they're probably struggling, wanting the work, taking the work, figuring I'll just climb up the ranks. But kind of inevitably, like they were kind of screwing themselves over and they were killing their own respect. You know, the customer said, I mean, again, if our expertise, you know, as a designer only lies in the execution part, you know, the doing part. Okay. Making it look good. Well, let's face it, the past few years have shown, showed us that's done it, it is done. It is devalued. That, that, that, that's going to become low hanging fruit. Yes. That's not even going to be like the entry to the space. Because it's going to be so mindless to do at that point. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And again with AI and tell. But clients can be able to do all this kind of stuff if they choose to, in their minds.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That's the thing. Right. Okay. Because clients now have this false sense of what design is. And now in their minds they're going to be thinking, hey, I can go online and do myself in. AI, why do I need a designer? So this is what. So it's not that clients stopped respecting designers per se. Okay. They just stopped seeing designers as the experts is how I'm viewing this. Okay. Because we have always, Dude, I always said for the past 20 years, I'm like, we're experts.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We have to keep that expert status.

[B]

Yes, we have to.

[A]

The second we start losing that, it's a slippery slope. Yeah. Might as well hand it neck. And it has. We've had so many times, time after time that it's like as soon as you, you folly or you up or, or you make a mistake or you look like an amateur.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Clients and all of a sudden start questioning you, then they're looking for more, more ways to question you. Right. And if you can't gain that back.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're done. It's only a matter of time. It's not if, it's when.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I think that's why I've always been really hard with everybody here about, you know, don't ever like, act like you don't know anything, even if you think it's cutesy and be like, oh, I'm just a dumb designer. No, you know what I mean? Like, you don't do that because as soon as you do that, you're done in the client's eyes. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. You've tipped your hand and now they, they have no trust in you. So. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No expert status with that.

[A]

No, absolutely. Right. And again, what people need to remember, though, that expert status, okay, is more than just about the doing. And it has to be more about the doing. Right? Clients didn't necessarily stop respecting designers. They just stopped seeing designers as the experts. And I think that's. That's what's kind of thrown everything for a loop, okay? That's why I am so hardcore about everybody here, you know, showing a professional front. You know, we can be cool, we can have fun, we can be casual, but we have to have reasons for every single decision we make, and they have to be thought through. Like, they actually, you know, we had. We had. We had a small thing today happen, okay? And, you know, somebody asked me to approve an ad that was going out, and I was like, yeah, you know, it was. The ad was about streaming, right? You know, like, and. And. But it showed gamers, right? And I'm like, okay, that's cool. I'm like, you know what? That's great. But if it says streaming, we should probably show people on TV or keep the gamers and change it to gaming. Okay? For the head word. And, you know, obviously our designer is awesome, but she's like, well, you know what, though? Like, people may not realize this, but she's an avid gamer. And she was like, you know, gaming is actually streaming with services like Twitch and this and that. So it is actually correct. I'm like, sure, but the target audience for this ad, the end result, isn't aware of that. They're not aware of that. They have no idea about that. And what we want to do is make it as frictionless as possible. Right? So even though the customer requested this, change it to make it easier for that ad result for that end user, right? Then she got it. There's no question. There's no issue. There's. There's no friction here. Anyway. Yeah, but now we're going to go back to the customer and explain that to them.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

Right. Because again, it's. It's not about guessing is this going to work or not. Right? Because nobody, especially customers, right? Nobody respects the person who's guessing, okay? They respect the person who actually knows how to fix something. Okay? What client gives us this doesn't mean it's right, but they do expect us to step up and actually correct it. That's our job.

[B]

And see, and this is the thing too, is this is. This is the kind of the expert status that we have. You could see things that the client doesn't even see.

[A]

100%.

[B]

100%, which is awesome. And that if you can go back to them and say, look, this is why we did this and explain why it is.

[A]

Explain. Right. Yeah.

[B]

It's not like. Well, it just sounds better. No, that's not. This is why we did this. Your client is going to go, I never saw that. I didn't. I never thought.

[A]

And they'll appreciate.

[B]

And they'll appreciate.

[A]

Something's wrong with your car. You don't ask your co workers, hey, what do you feel is wrong with this? You don't ask for other people's car. How do you feel? I feel it might be the battery. I feel it. They're just. It makes no sense. Okay. But you take it to a mechanic, okay. They. They can diagnose it. Okay. They can actually tell you then what. Why. What's wrong with it, why it's wrong. And they can fix the thing, Right? Yes. That's the trusted expert. Because they have expertise in that space, not feelings about why they're doing what they're doing.

[B]

Exactly. Imagine if you're your doctor and said, well, I feel that this might be the problem.

[A]

So here's for you. Right, Doc? I'm not feeling good. Okay. Well, here. I think. I think you deserve this drug and this and. Sure.

[B]

Only. Yeah, right.

[A]

Geez. Our. Our med system would come way down. Right.

[B]

Big time.

[A]

And the death rate would go up.

[B]

Yes, it would.

[A]

But it's true.

[B]

Yes. Great analogy.

[A]

Experts don't ask what to do.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. They just explain what needs to be done. Right. There's a huge difference there. Big difference. They don't. They don't ask for permission. They're basically like, no. They step in a situation like. Like, this is what we're going to do. This is what we're going to do. This is what we're going to do. All of a sudden, everybody's just taken back with that. I have had so many experience over the years where it's like Discovery call. I come in, you know, I. I'm in the. I'm. I'm looking at their stuff. They're like, well, this is what we've had done in the past. This, that. And right off the bat.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I don't hold back. Well, sometimes it's hard to hold back when you're. When you're Massimo. And I'm like, on the spot, being like, well, I know why that's not working. Because of this. And I'm like, how did you know? And I'm like, And then this. This is going to lead to this kind of result, like they didn't have to tell me. Yeah, I already knew.

[B]

You could figure it out instantly.

[A]

Expert status. Needless to say, I walked out of that meeting with assigned retainer. It was the fastest turnaround client I've ever had in my life. But I mean, again, it's because I know what has to be done right. And they saw that I knew my Right. Okay. And that goes with everybody. They, if they know that you, you actually know your stuff, they're going to trust what comes out of your mouth. They're going to trust the timelines you give them, they're going to trust the budget you give them. And as long as, as an expert, you keep repeating this time and time and time again, it's going to be such a frictionless. We have some customers and I mean, and I'm not saying that they blindly do everything we say because that's not it at all. No. But we've gotten to a point where they're like, yep, I know I'm going to get it. I know it's going to work. And I even check and they'll still be like, yep, good call. I never saw that. Thank you for that. Yeah. Because again, that's what they expect from us to do. Not just say yes to everything and make it look pretty, but point out mistakes. You know, take and. And again, not mistakes. That's maybe being a little harsh.

[B]

Okay, well, yeah.

[A]

Point out what they didn't see.

[B]

Didn't see. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. You'd have to be a little more gentle with that kind of thing. But technically, if it's not working, it is a mistake. So maybe, maybe I got a little bit of the moss bluntness in me. I don't know.

[A]

Once do our. They're wrong. Okay. But I mean, it's true though. I mean again, and while I am brash about.

[B]

Yeah, you are.

[A]

But that's good.

[B]

I think that's good the way, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I would rather have that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Than somebody coming in and say, well, I don't think the color is right in this.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. No aura is off. Oh man. God. Geez. Unless they actually really ask for my personal opinion on something.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I never give that. It's always based on it's experience, data, expertise. What we've had work in the past. What you've had work in the past, Customer.

[B]

Yes. And you've seen it a half a dozen times. You know exactly what the problem is, which is great.

[A]

You know what? If you have long term customers, which we do, we have long term customers. And we have customers that return. We have employees from customers leave, go to other companies, bring us the other. Right. Clients for life. So it's like, you know what? It's. We have been able to successfully maintain that expert status.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And we've been blessed that, you know, we don't have to try too hard to get new work. We're actually turning away the work. Okay. So I kind. So what I did is I kind of thought about, like, what's my process? What makes that different? Yeah. Okay. When I go and approach these customers and I wrote some of these down. Right. But, you know, when I'm there with a customer, okay. In order for me to. To feel like I'm that expert. Okay. Right from the discovery call, I'm already diagnosing what's going on. Okay. From day one, I'm like, what have you done? What's right? What's wrong? I dive into the history, right? I'm. I'm asking them, you know, what has worked in the past? What hasn't worked? What are your customers doing that you're not doing? What are they doing? That's. That's great. What are they doing that sucks. You know what I mean? You know, And. And again. And then I go into what their customers. I'm asking them so many questions from day one that I don't even give a shit about the project that I'm even there for. I am diagnosing everything about this company. And again. And then they tell me what that. What they need and why I'm even here, which is horrible. Yeah, totally.

[B]

I remember being at a job previous where I was like, the customer was eating our lunch, and I was just like, well, what do we know about these guys? And the manager, the marketing manager was like, what do we give a fuck? I don't care. I don't care about this.

[A]

Right? Like, how do you not.

[B]

They're eating our lunch. You should really care about what they did.

[A]

Well, and again, what has actually worked and failed is the most important part. Like, because you're the one who's failing.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Right. And that's the thing, right? Nobody gives a shit about the colors you choose, the fonts you choose. And that's the mistake. No, we want to find out what colors in the past have you chosen that have worked and why. What fonts have you decided to just stick with? And why? Like, I mean, it's the why that designers need to ask. And that's what I keep doing. Right. Yes. I also. I talk about outcomes with customers. Okay. I'm always talking about, you know, conversions and sales, and when I'm pitching ideas, it's never about, well, this feels good. Customers are going to look at this and like, no, I'm talking about this should convert. This is why. This should increase your sales. This is. This is what you know, this will gain trust. Okay. I never go on about anything. Aesthetics and the benefits of choosing the look, unless that look is. It's wildly, insanely, you know, or specifically chosen. But even if, Even if we're like, listen, we've gone with this aesthetics because it will help convert, you know, this. It will help give the illusion of more luxury or more niche or more. There's always a reason, but I never lead with aesthetics. Never, ever, ever. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Irrelevant. And a big thing is I never. I. I always use business language. I don't go in and talk like a designer because they don't know what the hell I'm talking about. Okay. They really. And they don't care about designer talk. Really. Right. They want, you know, they respect results. They need results. And if you're talking business language to them, you know, using the terms like ROI and conversions. Right.

[B]

You know what that stuff is? Yes.

[A]

You know what that stuff is?

[B]

Lip service.

[A]

Exactly. Then you'. You're looking after their bottom line, you're looking after their brand. You're. You actually have that business mindset. Yes. That they know that they can partner with.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Huge difference. That. And again, I know a lot of designers that they have no clue what.

[B]

Those terms stuff is.

[A]

And again, it's only a detriment to their business. Right, True. And. And I always frame the problem before I even introduce the solution. Always. All my presentations, everything I do, I always start off with, look, this is the criteria, this is the problem that we addressed, you know, and then this way, it's like, if there's an opportunity for them to be like, that's not the problem, that's when I want to hear it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But I've already confirmed it by the time we came to that pitch. So again, I confirmed the problem before I even show them the solution and propose an idea to them. Because again, then they're like, yeah, yeah, you're solving. Yes, my biggest pain point. You're not just showing me something that looks great.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And, you know, might get us a little bit more attention on this magazine.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes.

[A]

Yeah. And. And last, most important, okay. Everything I do, everything I recommend is driven by the outcome that it's going to give to them. Right. Okay. And it Is, it's like, you know, what were the objectives? Okay, here's the outcome. This is, this is what it should do. It is going to increase, you know, our conversions, hopefully by this much. You know, I get that that one might be hard to do if you're new to this, but at least, at least if that is the intent and you address that, you know, we are, you know, we're building this like this because we want more people to click that buy button. Exactly. This is how.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, that's a big difference than. Oh, yeah. I just thought that we'd, you know, make the button blue because it complements your brand. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's pretty scary. And again, I don't, I never ever. So again and again, for what it's worth, this is just how we have done things. Right. And, you know, 27 years later, Seven Figure Agency. Yeah. I think you kind of know one or two things based on how we do it.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

You know, so I think, honestly, if you need, if you want to be treated like an expert and you want to maintain that expert status, you have to stop acting like an assistant to their marketing person. Right.

[B]

Or, or whatever.

[A]

Or the do we're right and everything. Right. Because honestly, leaders, you know, leaders, if you're leading this charge, okay, you don't ask what to do. You're not sitting there asking for permission to do things. You go in and you have to explain what needs to be done in that situation. Because honestly, that's the difference between being respected. Okay. And just being an order taker.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. Expert status is the hardest thing that designers try to maintain. Okay. And once you get it, once you climb to it, you hold onto it, and this is the way how we do it. So, so this is what should work for everybody else, in my opinion, anyway.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What do I know?

[B]

27 years in the business, I don't know, you might know a little bit.

[A]

A thing or two.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

But again, I don't think that, you know, clients outright are dis or are disrespecting no designers.

[B]

No. I, I don't get it. That I, I, to me, like that whole section in the 80s or the, the, the 2000s, it was, it was a, there was cost cutting measures.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, people could see maybe a section of their budget that, that doesn't need to.

[A]

We saw the bubble burst, Right. We did. We saw that tech bubble burst. There was a lot of things that had to happen. Yeah. But again, this generation kind of came through, and this is all they Knew design was about.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

And how many designers have you met over your time, Sean? Over your, over the past, like two decades. That's all they focus on, is making things. We've had so many people come through here and that's all they can do. Yeah. They can't. You know, sadly, it's like sometimes I still think most of the designers I meet out there, that's all they do is just, they're just glorified production artists because they're not asking the questions, they're not making an effort, and they're just focused on making things look pretty versus things working.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And it's kind of sad, really. Think about it. But again, I mean, this is, I don't know, do you think this is a, this is an experience kind of thing or.

[A]

I think experience plays a huge part in it. In it. Because I, I know that there are designers like us. Yes. I talk to them all the time. Yeah. And they're always problem driven, objective driven. Okay. Okay. You know, this is my way of going about this. But I also. This is many other people, a lot of people do this, but I don't see many of the younger designers doing this yet. Right. And you know, and again, and I've talked to people and they're like, well, how do we train this? And honestly, I don't have that answer yet.

[B]

That's a tough one. Right.

[A]

Like, this is my objective this year is to actually try to, you know, spin everything that we do. And long term objective this year is to train people how to think the way we do. Because I think that this is what the longevity of our career.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, of, of, of our industry of being a designer has to go back to this.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because the doing, let's face it, it's. It's done.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And like. Yeah.

[B]

And you get to a certain spot where it's like the doing is kind of the icing on the cake.

[A]

Right. Absolutely. Right.

[B]

Making that cake, baking that cake is, is key.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's the challenge, you know, and it's tricky, but. Yeah. And it's not an instinctual thing.

[A]

It's. No, absolutely.

[B]

It's almost a mathematical kind of, you.

[A]

Know, you know what I mean? Like, you have the right data. It absolutely is. Right. It's like a no brainer.

[B]

It's okay. Yes.

[A]

Yeah. We will, we will be required in the future to obviously implement taste and make final decisions. Put it all together.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But if it's not backed by any sort of, you know, data, experience, strategy, Mindful thinking. Design thinking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Dude, it's so thin that AI will take it.

[B]

Oh, yeah, right. Exactly. Yes, yes, yes.

[A]

I don't necessarily think, okay. That clients don't respect design anymore. I think that, you know, they don't understand what actual designers do.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. And because they don't understand that, you know, they. They. They dumbed it down to making things look pretty. And for designers to start regaining their hold on the space, we have to elevate and up our game, and we have to regain that expert status. And that starts with asking, why? Why the hell does everything happen? Why? Why, why, why, why, why? First and foremost. Yes.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

And then from there, lead your own path. Yep.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Please, by all means, guys, let us know what you think about this episode. You know, you know where to find us. Obviously. Sign up for our newsletter, anger management for designers, which is a lot more of this just in newsletter format on a weekly basis. And hit us up on our socials. Yeah, Right. Let's keep this going. Yeah, let's keep this going.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right.

[B]

All right.

[A]

My name is Massimo.

[B]

My name is John. Stay creative and stay angry.

[A]

Sam. It.