Why Good Design is Losing to Fast Design and How Graphic Designers Can Change Their Fate

Summary

The Angry Designer Podcast: Episode Summary

Episode Title: Why Good Design is Losing to Fast Design and How Graphic Designers Can Change Their Fate
Release Date: June 17, 2025
Host: Mossy & Sean
Podcast Description: The Angry Designer is a no-nonsense podcast dedicated to helping graphic designers, freelancers, and creative professionals navigate the challenges of the industry. Hosted by a seasoned Creative Director who built and sold a 7-figure creative agency, the podcast delves into topics like burnout, pricing, imposter syndrome, and more, offering actionable insights without the industry fluff.

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1. Introduction: Setting the Stage for Frustration

The episode kicks off with Mossy and Sean sharing a lighthearted moment involving a whiskey tasting requested by a listener. This segment serves as a bridge to Mossy's main venting about a frustrating experience at the DMV, highlighting his impatience and setting the tone for the episode's focus on dealing with client frustrations in the design industry.

Notable Quote:

• Mossy at [02:42]: "I hate my waiting experience today."

2. The Value of Patience in Design: Steve Jobs and Paul Rand’s Story

Mossy narrates the story of Steve Jobs hiring the legendary designer Paul Rand to create a logo for Apple's next computer company after Jobs was ousted from Apple. Rand stipulated two conditions: a hefty fee of $100,000 (equivalent to a million dollars today) and a one-year timeframe, refusing to engage until the logo was complete. Despite Jobs' known impatience, he honored Rand's terms, recognizing the value of Rand's expertise.

Notable Quotes:

• Mossy at [04:02]: "Anybody who doesn't know the story or, or the legend, the myth."
• Sean at [05:16]: "It's a big deal."

3. Modern Client Expectations: Fast vs. Quality

Drawing parallels between the Steve Jobs story and contemporary client behavior, Mossy highlights a significant shift: clients today demand rapid results, often at the expense of quality. This impatience undermines the traditional designer-client relationship, where trust and process are paramount.

Notable Quotes:

• Mossy at [09:11]: "Behaviors that assume designers can wait because design is a sacred, long process are fading."
• Sean at [12:02]: "Customers are not like that. They want progress, not perfection."

4. The Impact of DIY Tools and AI on the Design Industry

The proliferation of accessible design tools like Canva and platforms like Fiverr, combined with advancements in AI, has democratized design. While this accessibility empowers non-designers to create "good enough" designs swiftly, it simultaneously devalues the expertise of professional designers.

Notable Quotes:

• Mossy at [17:17]: "Canva templates, cheap systems like Fiverr."
• Sean at [18:32]: "Design is becoming so accessible for everybody."

5. Consequences of Settling for “Fast” Design

Settling for quick, mediocre designs leads to long-term brand inconsistencies and a degradation of brand identity. Mossy shares anecdotes illustrating how "good enough" designs often outperform meticulously crafted ones in terms of immediate conversions, challenging the notion that perfection always equates to better results.

Notable Quotes:

• Mossy at [15:10]: "Good enough just as well as perfection."
• Sean at [25:39]: "It was like something that we did last year tanked."

6. Adapting as Designers: Processes and Client Involvement

To combat the trend of fast design, Mossy advocates for a structured delivery system that involves clients early in the design process. By presenting ideas and progress regularly, designers can manage expectations, build trust, and ensure that clients feel involved and valued without compromising on quality.

Notable Quotes:

• Mossy at [27:57]: "We have a process for logos."
• Sean at [32:02]: "Wireframes to show to the client."

7. Leveraging AI Smartly in the Design Process

While AI tools can accelerate the ideation and research phases, Mossy emphasizes that the final creative work remains a human endeavor. By integrating AI effectively, designers can enhance their processes without relinquishing control over the final product, ensuring that quality and creativity remain uncompromised.

Notable Quotes:

• Mossy at [31:04]: "AI helps speed up the thinking process."
• Sean at [31:55]: "But not the final work. The final work is still on us."

8. Final Recommendations: Changing Delivery Methods

The hosts conclude by urging designers to rethink their delivery methods. This involves setting clear expectations, showcasing progress, and leveraging both speed and intelligence in their workflows. By doing so, designers can maintain control over their projects, ensure client satisfaction, and preserve the integrity of their creative work.

Notable Quotes:

• Mossy at [35:14]: "Deliver progress, not perfection."
• Sean at [36:45]: "Process is important. That's what separates us."

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Conclusion: Embracing a New Norm for Sustainable Design Careers

Mossy and Sean reiterate the necessity for designers to adapt to the evolving landscape, where speed and accessibility are increasingly prioritized by clients. By adopting structured processes, involving clients throughout the design journey, and smartly integrating AI tools, designers can uphold quality while meeting modern demands. This strategic approach not only safeguards the designer's reputation but also fosters long-term, harmonious client relationships.

Final Notable Quote:

• Mossy at [39:59]: "If you're just striving for that end goal, your future is limited."

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Key Takeaways:

• Patience Pays Off: Investing time in the design process leads to superior outcomes, as exemplified by Steve Jobs and Paul Rand.
• Understand Modern Challenges: Recognize the impact of DIY tools and AI on client expectations and the design industry.
• Adapt and Evolve: Implement structured processes that involve clients early and often to build trust and manage expectations.
• Leverage Technology Wisely: Use AI to enhance the ideation and research phases without compromising the creative integrity of the final product.
• Communicate Effectively: Set clear deadlines and keep clients informed about progress to prevent frustrations and misunderstandings.

By embracing these strategies, graphic designers can navigate the pressures of a fast-paced market while maintaining the quality and integrity of their work, ultimately leading to more rewarding and sustainable creative careers.

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to the Angry Designer podcast, where we help frustrated graphic designers crush the industry chaos, ditch the social BS and build badass, rewarding careers that actually pay now. Powered by WIX Studio. That's all I gotta say. Never just want to scream.

[B]

What happened?

[A]

I don't know. All this talk. I've had a. Well here. But before we get into my home on the screen. All right, let's enjoy something that somebody requested to us. One of our angry designers.

[B]

Somebody? What?

[A]

Yeah, one of our angry designers. Like, hey, you got to try this. Sun World whiskey. Okay, guys, so this is a blend. They took the best of American whiskey, Canadian whiskey, Scottish whiskey, Irish whiskey, and Japanese whiskey, and they put it all together in this mix. Sounds kind of gross, but I don't think they actually just poured it all. And. And when you look at the list of how all the different flavors it. You know, it's.

[B]

Yeah, there's.

[A]

I don't know what. We're going to be experimenting.

[B]

I can smell it.

[A]

So there's.

[B]

Can you. Can you not smell it?

[A]

I'm going to smell this now. Okay, let's see.

[B]

It's got a. Oh, that does smell.

[A]

Like a lot of everything.

[B]

Really stings the nostrils. Okay, let's try it. All right, let's try it.

[A]

Wait.

[B]

Cheers.

[A]

Salute. Oh.

[B]

Oh, oh, that's good.

[A]

So there is a flavor. Okay. And it's crazy. I hate being that guy. But there really is a flavor journey there.

[B]

There is.

[A]

Okay. It does smell pretty strong.

[B]

It does smell different than what I was worried scared.

[A]

Yeah, I. I'm. I am tasting American. I'm tasting a little bit.

[B]

There's bourbon in there.

[A]

Yes, Right. Whiskey on Canadian whiskey. Too much, but. Yeah, I know it.

[B]

Good luck with that. But. But there is a scotchy kind of thing going on there.

[A]

Nice, subtle smoke afterwards. It is good. This is.

[B]

This is pretty good.

[A]

Fantastic.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Let's hit the second sip is.

[B]

All right. There's a bit of a. A wee bit of a burn going. There's a nice burn. There's nothing wrong with that.

[A]

You know what? The burn actually stops you from drinking too much. I have learned. Anyway. I. I really like this. Yes, it's different.

[B]

It's.

[A]

You know, it's still not my favorite, but it is definite recommend that to anybody who wants something different.

[B]

Yeah, we can put that back on the. Or we can put that into rotation. I like that.

[A]

Delicious. All right, now I'm not so angry because that was a nice. That was a nice treat.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So the reason why I'm Pissed is because I. I went to the freaking DMV today. Have you ever gone to the dmv? The where you get your license plate and you drive. Dudes, it doesn't matter if you're the first thing in the morning. End of the day, middle of the. I went.

[B]

Is that where you went?

[A]

2:00 clock. Oh, okay. I was there for over an. Just waiting. And it drives me nuts. And I'm okay with waiting. I'm generally pretty patient. But I mean, I was waiting so long, I. There's nothing left to scroll through in my phone. Okay, up on Instagram.

[B]

You've reached the end of Internet, right?

[A]

It did, you know, no emails. I'm refreshing my email, hoping come in like. And. And it was just this. I hated that wait. I couldn't stand that weight. And I am. I'm pretty impatient guy, which is why I thought, wow, this, that actually, actually happened today. Which is perfect with, with what we want to talk about today. Yes, again, I hated my waiting experience today. And by no means am I pushing that on, on anybody else. But you know who else had to wait?

[B]

Who?

[A]

Steve Job.

[B]

Oh, right there.

[A]

See what I did there? Now is that true, that story?

[B]

Well, I' tell the story and then, and then we can debate it for.

[A]

Anybody who doesn't know the story or, or the legend, the myth. Okay, what happened was when Steve Jobs was ousted from Apple, okay, he started, you know, a couple companies and one of them was the next computer company. And you know, Steve was somebody who, who valued design right from day one. He was probably more designer than engineer. And, and he valued the importance of it. And he wanted the one and only Paul Rand, okay, to design the next logo, the next computer logo. Right. And. And again, still a questionable logo. I still see it. And I kind of like h. But regardless, the story goes, he wants Paul Rand. Paul rand agreed on two conditions. He said, Number one, it's going to cost you $100,000.

[B]

Oh, Jesus.

[A]

And $100,000 back then is equivalent to like a million dollars totally now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he said, number two, it's going to take up to a year. Don't call me. I'll call you when it's done. And he did this to Steve Jobs. Okay, so. And apparently Steve Jobs was like, yes. Right? And again, I saw, I saw like they recorded the day when he presented it to him and he had books and it was like, again, the Paul Rand system.

[B]

It's a big deal.

[A]

And so, and so that's how the story goes. Okay, that, you know, Steve Jobs, you know, did this, took this, basically sucked it up because he knew who Paul Rand was. Even at that time, Paul Rand was a living legend. Okay?

[B]

He couldn't have got, couldn't have got Massimo or Saul Bass or anybody else. They might have done a little faster.

[A]

He wanted Paul Rand for whatever reason.

[B]

Fair enough.

[A]

Something about the way he thought, something about the way he worked resonated with him. And Steve Jobs is not known for patience. But in this case, in that case, he was. He somehow waited because he knew he was getting a legend. He knew he was getting greatness. He knew he was getting a system. So, so that's, that's the story. And so. Okay, so now why did you.

[B]

Whole year, like literally a whole year.

[A]

I don't think it actually took. So in the accounts that I read, it actually did not take a whole year.

[B]

But he had staked that in there just in case.

[A]

Leave me the hell alone. Because he, I guess his way of doing things was he had a process, but it was also very organic and fluid and as things came to him, you know, he would. Anyway, needless to say, that's, that's the story. And it checks out almost everywhere that I've read.

[B]

Right. Okay.

[A]

Why do you think it's not real?

[B]

It just, it's just ridiculous. Like think, think if you had done that, you know, I got a client here. It's like, don't fucking talk to me. Don't bother me for an entire year. I'll give you one logo.

[A]

It's definitely, it's definitely client. But giving you a year, Clients don't even give you a week.

[B]

Here's the thing. That's exactly how different are things nowadays.

[A]

I know. I mean I literally will, I will, you know, get, get all the information from a client and the day they're already asking for the timeline, right? And you get those, those amazing passive aggressive check ins, you know, like, hey, no rush or anything, not to push your genius, but you know, do, just checking in, you know, do you have a time? Right? You know, it's like, you know, I'm not trying to rush you or.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, take your time. I know you got a process playing.

[A]

On this end, right? Like you hear all that?

[B]

I'll check back in an hour.

[A]

And, and it's true, right? And, and what's often cases is you're working your ass off to get to that point because the customer is like lagging behind on this and that. And then when you have everything, right, it's that hurry up and wait Exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then all of a sudden, it's like, you've got it all, and now they're knocking on the door, you're ready. You're ready.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, we had an email today, even. Okay. As you know, we're building a website. The website we have. Okay. The. The website had a lot of discovery ahead of time, unfortunately, more than we planned for. But then once we finally had everything that we needed, we. We found all the hidden little nicks and crooks and all the pages and everything else. We. Okay, now we know what we're building in. Here's your timeline. And then we hit a timeline. We. We detailed it, right? And the client keeps asking, just curious, when the launch date is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're like, hey, guess what? We've given you this launch date, and we're launching on this day. Okay. Then a couple days later, hey, just checking in. When's that launch date? And it's like a game, I swear.

[B]

Are they expecting it to be. To get pushed up? Is that. Is that what it is?

[A]

I don't know. Why? I. I don't know. We have told everybody, we've given them a Gantt chart, We've given a table. We've given them. You know, this is. This relies on all the dependencies. And we keep saying, as long as this is it, we're hitting our deadline. We're hitting our deadline. And it's just like, when I saw that today, I was like, Mac, like, what is this? Are they still asking?

[B]

Really? They're still giving us the.

[A]

We're, like, two weeks out, and they're still asking.

[B]

Oh, my God. Oh, geez.

[A]

You know, but. Wow. I know, right?

[B]

Yeah. Well, you got to. I mean, you can't blame them for trying, right there. It's the world that we live in today with this.

[A]

It is.

[B]

You know, and that's the scary thing, right?

[A]

Because if you're talented, but you take your time now, this is a losing game.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Right. Gone is when designers can sit back and, you know, we're the creatives, we're the experts, you know, and we do all the magic, you know, that customers have no idea. And. Because we have that creative button. Right? That's right. The creative button.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, you know, and, like, gone those days, because customers are not like that. Like. Like, designers have. We've kind of did it to ourselves, in my opinion. Right.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Well, because a lot of designers, as you know, you know, they strive for perfection. Okay. And I think they took that to a point where it gave us a Bad reputation, you know, and people often feel like they're, they're, you know, because things are being over polished and designers are just wanting to, I mean, I can say for a fact that I had this story and I had a custom customer who, he was actually mocking me. The. But I mean, again, he, he, he wanted some work done. And I was like, okay, well that's fine. We got to do it in order. We got to do the right process. We're gonna do this first this way. He's like, oh, I just, I just want this done. And I'm like, just skip that. I'm like, okay, well, you know, I, I, I can see if I can get it faster for you. But, you know, like, we have a process. And, and sure enough, he ended up going somewhere else. And then I heard through the grapevine, he like kind of mocked me. He's like, well, he goes, you know, I wanted Massimo to do it, but you know, Massimo, and he has to do his process. And sure enough, the logo he did, he was bad.

[B]

It was awful. It was actually awful.

[A]

It was awful, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But again, you know, this is a clear example where some people just can't see the difference though, between a hundred dollar logo and a thousand dollar logo or a ten thousand dollar logo. Oftentimes it's like, you know, this whole, the perfection that, that, you know, the perfection that often designers strive for is completely invisible to customers. Yeah, right. Where. And I think that that has given designers a bad reputation. And part of that reputation is it takes a long time. Customers are waiting and they're waiting on designers. And I think that that's kind of, you know, like, kind of like no matter how great it is, if it doesn't see the light of day. Yeah, it, it means, it means fuck all to the customer. And I think that's where we did it to ourselves in that case, you know.

[B]

But see, the funny thing is, it's like, I don't understand, like, Paul Rand. Yes. He obviously baked in that year to, you know, give him some time just in case Paula Scher walks out of the meeting and draws the Citibank logo on, you know, right there.

[A]

Yep. And you know what she did? She scheduled the next meeting for eight months later.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, probably. Probably, though, maybe. I don't know. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's kind of, Maybe you're right. Maybe we have done it to ourselves.

[A]

We just, I think, I think, think that does. Because. Okay, you know what? Again, whether, you know, designers have, whether we've been so crafty about what, what it is that we do. And so it's so sacred.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, and so secretive.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. We can't tell anybody.

[A]

Right. So what happened is, you know, like in the end that customers, I think they've given up on that and you know, to them, you know. Okay, the secretive part is a mystery.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it's.

[A]

But speed isn't. And that's something that's tangible.

[B]

Right. That's a very real.

[A]

That's a metric they can understand.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. And because of that, you know, now it's to the point where clients are, are, you know, they want things now and they want to see momentum sooner. They don't want to do the sit and wait for a year like, like Steve Jobs did. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There is a bigger threat, okay. To graphic designers than AI. There's a bigger threat to graphic designers than. Than other designers.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

A little bit of a pause there.

[B]

Right? Yeah. Well, for dramatic effect.

[A]

Dramatic effect on that one. There's a bigger effect there. Okay. There's a bigger threat to designers than AI, Than other designers. Okay. Honestly. And I think that threat is that customers are settling for average designs, but getting it sooner.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Versus waiting for quality stuff.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And waiting longer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And I think that's what's going to everybody over in our space. Remember, Remember that Trifeta where it's like quality, speed and price. Pick two. Right. And that was always the thing. And when you'd put that in front of a customer and they'd be like, wow, geez, you know, it's like, well, how do I, how do I. I want a cheaper price, but I don't want to sacrifice quality. And that was always. Quality was always the non negotiable.

[B]

Right. Customers used to always be like, well, that's baked in. Yeah.

[A]

Right. So I want the cheaper price and I want a quality logo. So I'm willing to wait.

[B]

Ye.

[A]

Or okay, you know, I want the quality logo, but I don't want, you know, or I'm willing to pay for it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, you know, make it. Make, make it faster. Yeah. Fast. Right?

[B]

Yeah. But I'm gonna pay through the nose.

[A]

Exactly. And they knew that. But nobody would ever say, I want it cheap and I want it fast. Nobody ever would say that. And I think that's what we're living with right now.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Honestly. And I mean, because again, I'm seeing it. We've been seeing, we've seen this for years. Okay. With our client, maybe our client intelligence kind of sucks being in the world that we, and we've figured out ways on how to get around it, which, which we'll go into detail later. But I'm seeing it now across the board and I'm seeing it on threads. I'm seeing people complain about it because customers are wanting everything now or they just want to do it themselves now. Right, okay.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And, you know, and the problem for this, there's so many repercussions with this settling for average and getting it sooner. Okay. The repercussions, like obviously the short term wins in their mind, but there's long term losses when it comes to brand consistency, which we see all the time. When it comes to the quality, when it comes to the bigger system that you're trying to build. Right. Again, they're creating stuff that's generic and with it it's forgettable ultimately.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because they're just getting.

[B]

There's no thought process into it. There's no, there's no ramp up. There's no Runway to do this.

[A]

And again, what, what the effect is for us, it's just this slow erosion of their brand. And it's just like, it's like they're going through a brand flesh eating disease and their brand is just slowly eroding in front of us because people are now jumping on speed. I just want to. Good enough, good enough, good enough for now. And so that's, that's the problem that I think that all designers are going to have to face because customers seem to be okay with it for now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Whether this is a forever thing, I don't know. But I'm seeing it more in the other space.

[B]

Interesting. Wow, that's, that's a very alarming kind of scenario.

[A]

I just want to say that this whiskey is really good. I'm really enjoying this whiskey. It's pretty nice. It's hard to get angry when you have something that tastes so nice.

[B]

It's going to be hard to stop.

[A]

So it's like, you know, so I think this isn't something that that has happened overnight because like I said, I've, I've seen this happen in our space time and time again. I've seen it for years. Okay. Whether it's our space, whether it's our personality, whether it's the kind of we we attract, Fine, whatever. Right. We, we do have a reputation for being a fast turnaround agency. That's one of the things for high volume production company. Right. And that's kind of what we have. But on the other, on the other side of the world and especially in the B2C space. You know, I think what's happening is design is becoming so accessible for everybody. You know, you've got not just AI because we've been, we've been banging on AI a lot lately. Right. But it's not just because of AI, but I mean, you know, Canva templates, cheap systems like Fiverr. Right. Design, you know, things to that look good are now more and more accessible to the average person. Right. So now somebody in a marketing position of any sort can literally jump online. Right. My kids are telling me that they use canva. I cringe. Oh, did I cringe when they said that? But I mean, I understand where they're coming from. Yeah, right. I mean, because in no way are they ready for, you know, anything. Adobe and, and Canva makes it easy for people to get in, you know, kids.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And create super user friendly.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right. So, so understand that people, when, you know, you hear adults saying that they use can when they're proud of it, because my kids were 9 and 11, use it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So. And again, don't be proud of that. So because it's so accessible. Right. People are like, well, I don't have a week to wait. I need, I need a logo for my tournament that's this weekend. I don't have a wheat. So they're gonna do it themselves.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Or, you know, and then that kind of starts this, this horrible cycle, you know, where it's like they become more and more impatient, you know, with the designer because they're not looking at the process that we go through.

[B]

Right.

[A]

To get to that stage.

[B]

They see you plug something in, a prompt into a platform and then you get a.

[A]

The magic create.

[B]

Yeah. You get something spat on the back. Yeah, that's the process.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

It's, it's because design is now everywhere and I hate using design. It is.

[B]

I know, you're right.

[A]

Good looking, designed items are easily accessible. They're everywhere. Okay. So it's now no longer rare or sacred to have that skill because now anybody can do it. So, you know, clients almost see this, see, see the creativity as a tool, not as an art form.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. So. And because now, again, going back to the new creative divide, okay. They're thinking that they can create like a designer creates. Right. But they can't think like a designer thinks. Right, Exactly. You know, this whole other thing that I think another reason though for sure this is happening is when you order something or when you need something. Right. And you go on To Amazon. And you see something is available, you know, tomorrow, or you see it available on the weekend.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You don't need it till the weekend? No. You don't need it till the weekend? No. But you have an option. Tomorrow or the weekend. Which do you select?

[B]

I need it to know tomorrow. Right.

[A]

It's like your ass is on fire.

[B]

I know I don't need it tomorrow, but I need it tomorrow because of.

[A]

This kind of impatient world. That's exactly.

[B]

Exactly it.

[A]

And so. And it's just trickling down on every part of our lives. And it's not just us who are being affected, because, you know, people above us are being affected.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Other industries are, but everybody, like, expects this the next day. Right. And that's. That's a big problem. Right. It's. It's a dopamine thing. Okay. It's like. It's like, you know, you. When you see an Amazon delivery at your front door.

[B]

Yeah. You write it, you know?

[A]

You know, you could be half asleep, you could be in bed. I could be passing on the couch. It's like. Like bling a package. I'm like, oh, I gotta get that.

[B]

It's.

[A]

There is a little dopamine rush when you get that deliverable. Think about it. You know, when. When. When we hire contractors, right. We get the thing. We're like, oh, we drop everything because we want to look at. Okay. And I know that you guys feel that way too, right? So that has something to do with this. Right. And. And again, you know, the. The problem is that ultimately when you're getting something and you're getting it sooner, it feels like a big success.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, waiting is not success.

[B]

Yeah. Waiting is tough.

[A]

Oh, it killed me today to wait. When I finally got what I had to get done, I was like. But waiting was. It was misery.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And with all these factors, with the fact that we're impatient, this dopamine kick that we need. Right. Everybody else can do it. It's like more successful for people to be like, you know what? It. I'll do it myself. I'll get it done in 24 hours.

[B]

Get this done. Yep.

[A]

And then they'll be like, look what I did.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then there's that inflict sense of self with the pride that you do when you create something like that. Yeah.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It's something that you did. It's not great.

[A]

It's not as good, but you think it is.

[B]

That's exactly it.

[A]

Right?

[B]

There's a.

[A]

There's a And you can't tell me that these people in any way believe that they are as good as a designer.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. But this is where I'm saying that the worry is that people are settling for good enough.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And fast.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that is the problem. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And again, it's not, it's not, it's not that they're, they're, they're, or they're dumb. Right. They have their business reasons for this. Right. Like, you know, sometimes they have imposed deadlines themselves. That they do.

[B]

Right, exactly.

[A]

They've got presentations, board meetings.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They have their own launch dates or go to market. You know, there could be other factors there after that that we, we're not privy to. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Again, like I said, there's psychological reasons to this. Okay. Where progress feels like success. Okay. Which is huge. If you, if you fall behind or you, you feel like you're falling behind, you feel like you're falling behind your competitors, you're losing Marketplace. Right. Which is, again, that's a big fear. And then again, we talked about the whole instant gratification. That's, that's the psychological part. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

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[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. And again, in all fairness, you know, we do a lot of social posts for customers.

[B]

We do.

[A]

Do those social posts have a lifespan of what, a week? Max.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Max.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So it doesn't make sense for the customer to wait a week, two weeks for something that, you know, it's gonna, it's here and it's gone. Right. The, the, the shelf life on these things that we're creating these days on this digital world, they're just, they're instant, they're gone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's like, this is where it's like to them, the value of it being perfect versus just perfect for now or good. Know they're going to lean towards the good enough side of things. Right.

[B]

For sure.

[A]

So again, other customers, and we're believers of this is, Is get out sooner, test iterate, test again, iterate. Right. So again, you know, we, we are working on a project, I hate to say this, and it's like on revision 15. All right. And I mean, again, they're just, they're constantly in, they're in a. They're in a perpetual cycle of just overanalyzing. We can't shake them out of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And this is a situation where it's like, guys, if we would have launched this version one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, we could have already done three or four different revisions based on data.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. But again, it's, you know, and again, I hate to say that's the customer in this case, but, you know, like, it's taking so long to crank something out where, Austin, some people are just like, no, good enough.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Get it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And we have customers that believe that.

[B]

And I love those customers.

[A]

Just some that don't.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

And I, I think I know who you're talking about. And it just, it just seems like. Yes. Like it's that striving for that perfect right piece.

[A]

And, and, and ultimately in a lot of cases, good enough converts just as well as perfection.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. If not better. Right. I told you the story about how, you know, we created that landing page for the insurance company and we made this landing page slick, professional, and it's credible.

[B]

It was like, nope, it didn't convert with.

[A]

And then somebody internally there made one that looked like some 12 year old kid put it together and like, hello, it looked shady, it looked poorly done. And it was converting at like eight or ten times more than ours was. And again, it was just baffling.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So again, just because it's, it's oftentimes, you know, good enough, converts better than perfection.

[B]

Sometimes that works. Yeah.

[A]

And you know, oftentimes and. No, no. And I think this, this is what it comes down to is customers are losing trust in the process and they would rather see progress. Okay. So you can talk your process up all, all you want, but if they're not part of it and they're not experiencing it at every stage like you are going through, they're, they're feeling insecure. They need to be part of that and, and feel like they're contributing, otherwise they start getting jittery and they're like, well, hey, where are we at with this? You know, what are we doing?

[B]

Tapping their watch.

[A]

They're going to be asking more. So, you know, this is, this is something that, you know, something that we've dealt with many times. Okay. And that's why when we, we have a completely, we had systems in place that. We've done this for years.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. Because again, we, we realized this early on with our customers in specific, and now it seems like it works because we're, we're applying this to our existing customers that are not in that space. Okay. But like, I mean, we have a process for virtually everything. Okay. And, and what I mean by this is, you know, we'd like to refer to it as we wireframe everything, but it's not actually wireframing, but it's that whole concept, you know, wireframing with a website. The way we approach it is like a blueprint. Right. We're trying to understand the elements, we're trying to get the bigger message in place. Right. We, we want to kind of like, you know, understand, you know, what parts do we need to make this happen? Right, right. Well, we do that for everything from ads to brochures, you know, infographics, landing pages, websites, shit. You know, the only thing we don't really do it for is logos. We have a process for logos.

[B]

We do, yes.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And again, all of our processes, you know, bring the customer in sooner into the loop. Okay. And we engage the customer along the way. Along the way. And this, we've been doing this shit as long as I can remember, dude.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, honestly, this was one of the, those first game changing, you know, things you discovered in the space. And for us, for me, that's what you know. But again, what happens is, you know, when you bring the customer into your process at an early stage, right? It, it Keeps things moving forward, but it allows you to stay in control. And that's key. You don't oftentimes people back up, they do this big design. They present it to the customer with their, you know, like, they're like, here it is. It's fucking awesome. Customers, like, wow, I don't like that because.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A, it looks like something that we did last year in tanked. B, that doesn't look like our clientele. C, so all of a sudden, they're picking apart something that. Heck, if you were to just, you know, wireframe or whatever, process through the way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You would have all these things answered. Okay. And that's what we try to avoid. Right. So we tried to get more approvals along the way. So, I mean, by the time we get to that end result, it's like, boom. It's like there's no surprises for the customer, and there's no surprises for us. Right. So then this way, we satisfy the customers. Need it now. Itch.

[B]

Right. Yeah. That's good, because they're included in the mix. Exactly.

[A]

But we don't compromise our process, and we don't compromise our quality.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So we have some customers, even some newer customers that are. That are literally the. Okay, when am I going to have it? When am I going to have it? And it's like, while I can't promise them that final result. Okay. We can bring them into the fold. Bring them into the process. And it's enough that they're like, oh, no, they're working on it. I'm working with them on it. I'm in the process with them.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

This is a huge differentiator. Right. They feel programmed, they feel momentum in the project itself. Right. And that builds trust. And again, most importantly, it keeps you in control of the project, of the. Of the creative and of the quality of the whole.

[B]

And it keeps them off Canva doing it themselves.

[A]

You're right.

[B]

You're serious, right? Like, absolutely. Yeah. You. They. They're doing the logo. They're kind of. It's. It's like. It's like. What was that. That movie with the. Where they're making the. The. The clay thing? Ghosts. Yeah, ghosts. It's like that. You're doing that. You're. The client thinks they're doing it. You're the one doing it.

[A]

But, Sean, I don't know if you remember that. I think Patrick Swayze was alive when he did that.

[B]

Oh, was he?

[A]

Yeah. I thought he was a ghost near the end again, you know, he was a ghost hump. Or something. But. But anyway.

[B]

But yeah, you're right.

[A]

It keeps them bringing them into the fold.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So they feel like they're doing it. They're doing it with you. You. But really, you are guiding them. And that really does. Because what that does is that really emphasizes the fact that you, in fact, are the expert.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You have a process, and then it builds that trust with them that they're like, no, no, these guys know what they're doing, you know. Yeah. It's worth the wait because I understand the logic, I understand the process. Right. And that will win every time versus the good enough. Because then they don't see that good enough. AI has changed this for us. You know, it's not change it, but taken it to another level. We've incorporated AI into this whole process Right.

[B]

Now.

[A]

Use it to pull insights. Okay. We use it for the discovery, for the research part. Right. We summarize the ideas, we get the languages together, you know, that we present to the customers. The. The brief that I shared with you and Caitlyn yesterday, the day before.

[B]

Y.

[A]

Well, again, I took all of the discovery information from the customers, I put it all together, and I started working through the problems with it. I'm using AI to help me through this. Hey. Just so people don't sit there and think that AI did it all itself. It absolutely didn't. And it can't because it wouldn't know what parts to pull together. But again, it was just. It's such a great way to approach this.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right. Because again, we identified the problem. We identified new solutions with it. We came up, you know, in. In the creative session, we came up with the creative ideas, but it was all based on this information that we used AI to help us get to that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And then again, this. It really does. AI helps speed up the thinking process.

[B]

It does.

[A]

Okay. But not the final work. The final work is still on.

[B]

Still us. Yep.

[A]

And what are you guys doing? You guys are creating wire.

[B]

Wireframes, Exactly. Yeah. To show to the client to say, is this the right direction? Is it. Is this where you're looking?

[A]

Because let's face it, these. These wireframes might take you guys 10, 15 hours to do. Right. And you know, you're probably going to crank out six, eight, maybe 10 of these things. Okay.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Versus is spending 20, 25, 30 hours creating three really nice things, and all of a sudden having the customer be like, no, I don't like it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This way, we're bringing them into the fold. We're having them Understand and share early on in the stage. And it actually adds more credibility to us, our process, our way of thinking big time. So this is what graphic designers need to do. Graphic designers need to rethink how you deliver.

[B]

Deliver.

[A]

Okay. Not what you deliver, but how you deliver. And I think that's how we can all, you know, battle this whole. This. And do. I think it's going to be short lived. I don't, I think this is gonna, it's permanent. I. I feel this might be the new norm for quite a while.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay. All right. So again, you know, at the sake of, you know, living in a 24 hour economy where everything, customers. We're not saying that and I'm not saying, you know, do this, do everything for your customers in 24 hours. Okay. But I do think, think we have to figure we, most designers have to change their delivery method just like we are.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it's the process.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Not necessarily the final product. And I'm not saying sacrifice on quality by any means, but I do think that people need to, you know, rethink the, the delivery part of everything. Okay. You know, like, first thing you got to do is, you know, you have to set expectations with the customers. Okay. You know, you need to let them know, okay, by this date I'm going to do this. By this date I'm going to do that. This is for both of you.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

This, this gives the customer peace of mind. But then this also gives you something to shoot for. Okay. Because God knows, you know, if you just like, okay, I'll do it in a couple weeks. Well, that turns into a couple months. Exactly. Right. You give yourself that time. What is that, Parkinson's law?

[B]

Yeah, that's exactly. It just keeps pushing that day back. Yep.

[A]

You need to, you need to set expectations for both yourself and the customer. Okay. And that's one of the first things you got to outline, put in the process. Right. And then you don't have to rush every single part of that process. Okay. You just have to structure your delivery better. Okay. And what I mean by this is, you know, you share ideas before assets.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. Always show your thinking fast. Okay. You don't need three weeks just to show your customer your ideology, how you're coming up, what you're thinking.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

This is the kind of, that you, you should be able to do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, 48 hours, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like three days, four days later. Right. Depends on how much you want to. Wow.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But this is the thinking process. And now with AI Helping supercharge that thinking process. There's no excuse not to get it that quick, okay?

[B]

It's true.

[A]

You know, you need to, you know, again, you need to show your thinking fast but design slow. So if you can get your thought process out there, get your customer to approve everything that you're pitching your ideas, this is what we're doing and this is why we're doing it.

[B]

Move that along.

[A]

Then you're like, okay, I need a week to get these designs in place.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Customer won't balk at that.

[B]

No, no.

[A]

Because now they know, they're like, yeah, great, right? This is a good thing. Right? Again, deliver progress, not perfection. And I think what that'll do is that will. That holds off our customers always because again, they're in the loop. They're in the know how.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

They're happy. They're. They're seeing shit's getting done. Right? So again, you need a system for client interaction. You need clear steps on what's going to happen. You need clear wins and what to do when that happens.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But you do need this system, okay. For client interaction. And I think that's what more designers need to embrace. Because honestly, the. I feel that the new creative edge for designers is fast plus smart. Okay. And I think that's what it is. The future designer needs to think fast. We know this, okay, because they need to react with all the tools that we have out there. They're empowering them to do this. But we need to work smart because we don't want to deliver average stuff. We don't want to make customers think that they could do what we do because they can't. Right. We need to work smarter. We know. We need to know what tools to use when. Okay. And when to go custom on parts. Okay. And again, we don't get hung up on being the best designer. Okay. Our goal is to deliver the best problem solving solution to the customer. Okay. And the best way to do that is bring them into the loop quicker. Okay. You know, you win by delivering value quickly. Then you worry about making it beautiful.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Too many people are just. It's too quick to jump to the end.

[B]

Straight to the end. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, no, no, no. You can't do that.

[A]

No. Right. You need to, you know, quick wins. Yeah. Get them rolled in and then you make things beautiful. Right? Good enough, good enough. And fast is dominating. Okay? There's no question about that because we're seeing it pop up more and more and more, and it's happening you know, across the. Across the board. Okay. On every industry. Okay. So it's going to. It's going to keep dominating until designers show up with a better system in place, a better process.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's how we're going to squash this. Because again, what we have that they don't is our thinking, is our way of problem solving.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Is our process. All they can do is go from I need this done to here it is, it's done. That's all they can do. Because they only are. They're relying solely on the tools to do the job for them. Yeah, we are. We've got our processes, we're designing, we're trying to problem solve, we're asking all the questions, we're digging deep, and then we're creating solutions for their target market. Okay. We're keeping it on brand. So we are. We have better long term vision, we have broader brand vision. That's where designers succeed in this space and that's. That's where we need to focus.

[B]

Yeah, for sure. Big time. Yeah. Because that's the kind of thing, you know, you. By. By you talking and discussing things with the client, you're showing them your expertise and the reasons why you were doing this kind of thing. You just present something. Boom, there it is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How do. I don't know how you got that. You could have cheated.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You could have just. You could have went through canvas. Right. But no, no, no. You're saying this is. These are the. These are the road markings that we go by, Right? Yeah. And it's. And think of that too. I was just thinking of that. I was like, imagine if you completed an entire website.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then presented it to the client.

[A]

Right. How stupid does that sound?

[B]

Dumb.

[A]

Is that right?

[B]

That's the stupidest thing ever. No. You're going to have little marks along the road where it's like, okay, okay, here we are. Here. Let's get this approved first before we.

[A]

Bring him into the fold. Get it all taken care of. Absolutely, dude.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Beautiful. Beautiful. So again, you know what? You guys just. You need to keep in mind that you. Oh, no, it. There's nothing to keep in mind.

[B]

Right.

[A]

There really is nothing to keep in mind. Just, Just, you know, you. Are you building something that's going to actually keep you in this space? Okay. And again, if. If you're just striving for that end goal. Okay. Your future is limited. You're going to be rushing out, cr. Out for customers at a fraction of the cost. You're going to be miserable you're going to be another person on Reddit being like, complaining, hate my life. I'm a designer. This is. No, yeah, you know what I mean? You, you need to work with the tools you have. Okay. And, and include the customer earlier on in the process to get to that beautiful state. And then this way, once they can rely on you, once they know that, you know, like, this is a process, their itches are being scratched, your pocketbook itches being filled.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, dude, this is going to be a beautiful, long term, harmonious relationship.

[B]

Beautiful. Yeah.

[A]

Strive on that.

[B]

And you're learning from them too. That's the beauty of that as well. Right. Like, you're, you're actually getting insight into what they're asking for. Right?

[A]

Absolutely, you're right.

[B]

But now you're not just sitting there. I think I understand what they were talking about. You know what I mean? Like, no, you can actually. You're right there with the client. You can ask them questions.

[A]

Boom. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Yeah. So it's brilliant. Brilliant. Process is important. That's what separates us.

[A]

It really does.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Big time process to do things versus just running to the end goal. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Cool.

[B]

Yes. Awesome.

[A]

I got nothing else on this topic, guys, but for real, I mean, you know, I hope you guys got out of thing. This is how we've done this and we have had to deal with people like this probably for the last 20 out of 25 years in business, maybe all designers have been having to deal with this and I just don't know. Right. Maybe because this is how we go about it. But from the sounds of it, customers are some. Most designers are feeling the. The worst side of this age. So, you know, if this process works for you, you know, embrace it, use it. You know, put it, use it as part of your system. If you want to have a talk with me about exactly the process that we use, we'll get on the phone and we'll talk. I have no problem sharing this. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But honestly, if this works for you, this makes us happy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Big time is why we're here.

[B]

Big time. Yes.

[A]

Sweet.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

All right, everybody, you know where to find us. We're on Instagram, we're on YouTube. Apparently we're reopening up another Tick Tock channel.

[B]

I don't know why.

[A]

I guess Sean's got some D dancing.

[B]

For you.

[A]

But hit us up. And then of course, you can always direct message us on our website. Right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

My name is Mossy.

[B]

My name is Sean. Stay creative and stay angry.