← The Angry Designer Graphic Design, Freelancing, Branding & Creative Business Podcast
The Angry Designer Graphic Design, Freelancing, Branding & Creative Business Podcast
Why Graphic Designers Lose Their Edge, and How YOU can Fight Back with Bad Boy James Victore
00:51:04
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- [00:00]
James Victori
Guys, I learned a long time ago that I am not in the graphic design business. I am in the James Victori business.
- [00:09]
Massimo
I love it. So true.
- [00:11]
James Victori
I can't rely on the design business or design industry or whatever you want to call it. I've got to go out and make shit happen for myself.
- [00:22]
Massimo
You're listening to the Angry Designer podcast, where we help frustrated graphic designers crush the industry. Bull. And share what it takes to charge what you're wor and build badass, rewarding careers. Saddle up, Angry Designers, because today we are talking to a design icon whose graphic design work hasn't been in MoMA once, but twice, okay? He's a designer, he's an author several times. He's a teacher, he's an activist, and he's a shit disturber, okay? And he's the kind of guy who actually thinks that. That if you play it safe as a designer, that's the real danger. All right? He's been in this game for decades, but if you talk to him, like, you'll see today it's like the guy just started because he's got so much passion and enthusiasm. And he's here today on the Angry Designer podcast to make us all feel uncomfortable. The one and only Mr. James Vittor.
- [01:17]
James Victori
Oh, damn. Oh, damn. That is the finest fucking intro I have ever received.
- [01:24]
Massimo
I've only been practicing for, like, three weeks, so brilliant.
- [01:28]
James Victori
I'm kidding, I'm kidding.
- [01:29]
Massimo
But there's a lot to be said, like, holy jeez. I, Even before I started this agency, remember seeing your. Your moma work, like, in print back in the days, like in magazines and stuff. So it's just. It's kind of a really cool thing to be like, now actually talking to you like, 20, 25 years later, dude. So welcome.
- [01:48]
James Victori
You know what's. You know, what's bizarre is I look back on that on. On that period. Like, my first. My. My first poster exhibition at all was a solo show in Osaka, Japan. And like, how the. How the hell did that happen without the Internet?
- [02:08]
Massimo
Yeah.
- [02:09]
James Victori
So weird. How did shit happen back then? How did we. How did we end up meeting at the same place at the same time?
- [02:14]
Massimo
Geez, you know what? A lot of these listeners weren't even around. They weren't even going for that, for the Internet, which is fucking crazy. I think the last generation getting into this. So how. How did that happen?
- [02:25]
James Victori
I don't know. I mean, how did. How did. How did Martin Luther King get all those people on the, you know, on the lower.
- [02:33]
Massimo
Fair. Fair point. You're Right. A word of mouth. Just. That's what it is.
- [02:36]
James Victori
Yeah.
- [02:37]
Massimo
Well, let's go. Well, a lot of that, though. I mean, a lot of those early posters, especially, like, I mean, you were really pushing the whole activism angle. You had a lot of really bold stuff to say. And I mean, I'm guessing word spread through that, no?
- [02:49]
James Victori
Yeah, yeah, word spread through that. And plus I helped word spread through that. Duh. But yeah, just getting them out on the street, having real people, Having real people see your work, you know, helps. And yeah, the work came because I felt there were conversations that needed to be. Needed to be had. Right. You know, freedom of the press belongs to those who own the press.
- [03:18]
Massimo
Yeah, I know.
- [03:19]
James Victori
And I was a designer. I had the tools and I know I knew silk screeners and, you know, I took advantage of, you know, getting the. Getting the word out. You know, when Martin Luther, you know, nailed his thesis to the church door. Right. That was one. It was one thesis. The way he changed the world is he hooked up with Gutenberg and printed copies. Plus, not only did he have multiple copies, but he hooked up with. I forget which artist it was, but illustrated the thing. So even if you can't read, you can see the images of the Pope as the Whore of Babylon. Right, right, right. So, you know, design, graphic design, you know, I'm always going back to those roots, like the power of publicity, the power of images.
- [04:09]
Massimo
Yeah. Do you think? Okay, so back then, it was a lot. It was a lot harder. And when things like this popped up, it was. It was. There was a shock and awe. Now with all this shit and just the media and AI and. And is it. Is. Is. Are things going to change?
- [04:25]
James Victori
You know, what if you put it in the street, It's. It's still as powerful because, you know, people don't expect it as good. Good strong, sexy, memorable visuals. They don't expect it on a billboard or movie marquee or, you know, posted next to the grocery store. You know, the people don't expect that on the Internet. Yeah, you kind of have to purposefully. You got to follow James Victor in order to see James Victor. Right. So the Internet, it's kind of lost a lot of its, you know, oomph. Plus, plus the fact that, you know, I could just like, jack off and make some goofy little, you know, image and post it, but that just means it's a little drawing I took a picture of.
- [05:11]
Massimo
Yes.
- [05:11]
James Victori
Like, it doesn't mean that I've. That I've made the effort to put the. Found the Money or the client or the patron to back that up, to print in multiples, to make the effort to get it out into the world. Right. There's a huge difference there.
- [05:29]
Massimo
Yeah, the.
- [05:30]
James Victori
Of the effort and intention behind, you know, just posting something because it's cute and funny versus, you know, making it real.
- [05:39]
Massimo
Well. Okay, so when you did this, were you. Were you fronting the bill for all of this or did you have some back, some people on the side helping with this, or was it just out of your studio?
- [05:48]
James Victori
It depends. It depends on. It depends on the piece. The first couple of pieces, they were self produced. You know, I paid the printer, I paid the, the wheat pasters to put them up. But that's a really, really bad business model. And I got, I got, I got, I got, I got wind of that pretty quickly. So I would, I would create. Create something and then go find a, A client, you know, who was, who was somewhat simpatico with, you know, with the image.
- [06:20]
Massimo
When you started getting all this. I mean, because there's a lot of attention. I mean, I think it even kind of gotten to the courts, like the high courts. No, I mean, it. I mean, I hear this story. I was trying to valid. I couldn't figure who's a. Like an urban legend or not.
- [06:35]
James Victori
Yeah, no, the. The Hangman poster. Hangman. That's it, right? Yeah, the Hangman poster, which was, which was for the naacp. What happened is, I mean, that thing, they just contacted me and said, hey, we've got an. We've got a. A documentary film coming out called Double justice. And it's about the, the inherent racism within the death penalty. And the way it works is if a black man kills a black man, he goes to prison. If a black man kills a white man, he gets a death penalty. Right. And if a white man kills a white man, he goes to prison. If a white man kills a black man, he goes to prison. Right, right. So I created the poster based on, Based on that. They had a budget. We printed 15,000 copies of that. The poster got folded down and went out with the. Then it was a. Wasn't even a deal. It was a cassette. Right. A tape. Right. It got mailed out to lobbyists to Washington D.C. to, you know, to, To. To. To every. All the NAACP supporters. And yeah, it found it. It found its way into the office of Higginbothen when he was a Supreme Court judge. It found. It found a way into a lot of offices in D.C. back then, you know, 15 years ago, if you were researching the death Penalty. You'd see, you know, photographs of people in their office and you could literally, you know, find my poster in the background. Hang on.
- [08:04]
Massimo
Oh, dude, that's crazy.
- [08:05]
James Victori
It was pretty cool. It was pretty cool. Very powerful stuff. Yeah. You know, it made its way. The people who, who is it? Sean Penn, who was doing Dead Man Walking, they, he contacted the NAACP to get a copy to put it in the film, but I, I never saw it in the film.
- [08:21]
Massimo
No way.
- [08:22]
James Victori
So, you know, I mean, the thing is, is like you do. If you can do these things, if you can, if you can, if you can be honest, if you can get it out into the world, hopefully, if you can find a Cl to back you, they take on a life of their own.
- [08:33]
Massimo
Yeah, absolutely.
- [08:35]
James Victori
You know, I'm still, I'm constantly betting on that. You know, actually, actually there's a, there's a, there's a publisher I work for right now called the Do Books. They're out of, they're out of the UK and I design all the covers. It's a, it's a series, but I design all the covers and I design it with that intention. And generally when I see photographs of it, when I see it showing up on the Internet, it's shown up. They, they're displaying like eight or ten books at once. And they're generally in museum bookstores because I'm, I want them to be museum worthy pieces.
- [09:05]
Massimo
Absolutely. So then, so does one affect the other? And what I mean by that is you had all this stardom from your posters, your activism posters, you know, like, that just went skyrocketed. How did that help your professional career?
- [09:18]
James Victori
Oh, the posters killed my professional career? No. You kidding me? You kidding me? Nobody wants to work with you. You know, like, like, you know, they, they, they, they just think you're some hooligan. They think, you know, they're like, they couldn't make the transition from like, wow, he makes sexy, powerful images. So he could make a book jacket or an album cover or, you know, do marketing for us or do, you know, work on our advertising campaign. They couldn't make that, that leap of faith. So no, to have that early career was not, it was not a boon in business, but what it did for me was meant that I had to hunker down and create my own reputation in my own care. And I learned, I learned a long time ago, guys, I learned a long time ago that I am not in the graphic design business. I am in the fucking James Victori business. I can't rely on, I can't rely on the design business or design industry or whatever you want to call it, you know, the, the, the whim of clients. I've got to go out, I've got to go out and make shit happen for myself.
- [10:23]
Massimo
Yeah, yeah. So are you, are you, are you taking a stance that your personal brand is, is the most important thing that a designer has?
- [10:29]
James Victori
Oh, yeah. Your reputation, that's all you got.
- [10:31]
Massimo
Right. And that's what propels you then to that next level. I mean, when you're doing shit, you're doing it for yourself.
- [10:37]
James Victori
Yeah, yeah. Always, always, always. But don't take that in, in a selfish way because it's like, it's like when I'm working with a client and if they want something particular, I have to say, okay, I see, I, I see you and I see what you want, but I also see past you and I see an audience out there who are dying for someone to speak to them in an authentic, honest fashion. So, so, so, you know, I am working to make myself happy. I am working to, for myself first. But it's not, it's not without an eye on, you know, the receiver. Right?
- [11:15]
Massimo
Yeah, absolutely. How then, where do you find that balance then? Where it's like, you know, because obviously a lot of people, that's a struggle. I know a lot of designers have, is, you know, they take work, they want to take on work that's self fulfilling, but at the same time they got to pay the bills. And of that in the early years especially is just a grind.
- [11:33]
James Victori
I know. Well, that's where commercial, the commercial aspect of, of, of being creative sucks because when you're, when you're creative and you want to make work, you want to make beautiful things and you want to get paid for it. You know, if you're working for a client, all of a sudden there's a bunch of things that happen. One is you're working for a client so you want them to be happy. So all of a sudden you're a people pleaser. Then on top of that you're working for a client and you want to get paid. So there's an added pressure there, meaning if I get it done in a week, I get paid quicker, you know, and if I make them happy, I'll get paid more easily instead of, or if I have to do this two or three or four or five times, I'm going to get, you know, I'm starting to eat into the budget. So there are a bunch of things that happen when we start working for clients that make it really difficult. And I, you know, I work for, I work for clients, but what I've been able to do over the years is establish a reputation for myself. You know, I did this, I did this job for. Who was it? It was either Shopify or Etsy. I forget. I think it was Etsy a while ago. And they came to me and they said, hey, we're gonna, you know, we want. Here's what, here's what we're looking for and here's our list of how we're gonna, how we want to use it. And it was an in house. Their list of usages was, was, you know, a mile long, you know, on planets not yet covered and all that bullshit.
- [13:03]
Massimo
They just want to own it. Basically. Yes.
- [13:05]
James Victori
Yeah. And then the budget wasn't great, right. So I said, okay, I'm, I'd like, I'd love to work with you. You're, you know, I said you have to do everything creatively. Right. So I asked creatively for more money. I said, how flexible is your budget? Is it gymnast flexible or weightlifter flexible? And then I said, your usages, you know, it's a long list of usages for that budget. And then they also said, you know, they had this list of, you know, first sketch, second sketch revisions, blah, blah, blah. And I said, by the way, I don't do that. I will make something that you will like and if you don't like it, then we'll talk. Right? So they got back to me and they said, oh, that's right, we forgot how you work. And they doubled the budget and I did one thing, and they loved it because, you know, what I, what I'm, and what I'm doing is I'm not trying to be a dick. I'm very easy to work with. I'm very efficient and fast, but I want to set boundaries for myself, you know, you want me to do two or three sketches. Awesome. You got to pay me two or three times. Yes. I can do this all day. Right. We're creative. We can keep going.
- [14:28]
Massimo
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [14:29]
James Victori
But not without getting paid.
- [14:30]
Massimo
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So this is definitely where the benefit of, the benefit of having a strong personal brand plays into. Of course. Because I think a lot of people, they lose sight of that.
- [14:41]
James Victori
Sure. Well, they lose sight that they could actually have ownership of their, of their business. Right. That they could set boundaries and that they can tell people. No. That they can fire clients, that they can, you know, set your own terms. And, and only when you start doing that and, and do that Consistently. Then, you know, then the, the, the quote, unquote industry catches on and goes, we want to work with this guy because he just gets done, he just like, boom. Like, I don't have to, you know, I don't have to go, oh, could you do this and could you do that and you know, get her done.
- [15:18]
Massimo
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So early. James Vitari. Right. So when you, when you finish school, actually first school, what was school like for you? Because with the way you're acting now, I can just, I almost see this story. But I need to hear from you because you actually wanted to go to design school, did you?
- [15:35]
James Victori
Not initially, Yeah, I, I, right out of high school, I went to a regular university and didn't do too well. So I, I, I was basically asked to leave after the first semester. But I was like living in my home, living in my hometown. I was waiting tables. I was a National Ski Patrol. I was, you know, I was doing things that I actually wanted to do, so I didn't do well. But then, then I, then I, I. Too long a story to tell here. But then I found, you know, graphic design. I'd always loved design. I've always been the designer. I was born to do this job, but, so I decided to apply to art school and I got accepted at most of the schools on the east coast, but I had to go to New York because New York was, you know, where it was and it was where my family was from. So I went to the School of Visual Arts, moved to New York City when I was 19. But after two years I was like, I had to have a full time job so I could, you know, support myself at school. So school was a bummer. There was no one there to light a fire under my ass. So I had an instructor take me aside and say that, you know, graphic design was very competitive and there were a lot of people looking for the same jobs. And he suggested I become like a, you know, a CPA or a golf pro or something. I don't know. So I literally left, left school that day, you know, dropped out that day, and I started working three months later. And I haven't stopped. And it took a number of years before I realized that I'm a pretty good designer, but I'm a much better teacher. So I went back to sva, you know, a bunch of years later in my late 20s, and started teaching there because I wanted to be that teacher. I wanted to be that teacher that would light fire fires under your ass. And I still am that teacher.
- [17:29]
Massimo
Yeah, How Ironic, right? Yes, yes, James, I, I, in, I went to school for graphic design, and at the end of my first year, because I would always push and question and talk back and, and because they were marking on subjective and I had my Prof. Tell me I would never make it in this industry with my attitude. They were just trying to create sheep. They didn't want people to think for themselves. And just like you. Never mind. I quit that day, okay. And that lit such a fire under my ass. And then sure enough, 10 years later, I did go back and teach for a full. Just, just to be like, huh, I told you I could. I'm the one who could.
- [18:07]
James Victori
Perfect.
- [18:08]
Massimo
You are a very big advocate for, for a personal brand authenticity. You know, like, you know, getting, getting, getting designers to kind of create more with, you know, what is a liberated artistic expression. How would you recommend this? Because again, you know, like, I would love to personally, but I'm so stuck in the commercial game. It's hard for me to try to step aside from that and try something new. Like, I wouldn't even know where to start.
- [18:32]
James Victori
You don't have to try something you don't have from that. You can, you can, you can, you know, transition. And, and, but the things you have to understand is there's going to be a level of trust. Oh, actually, multiple levels of trust. First of all, you're going to have to, like, trust yourself like that. You're, you know, the whole, the whole way you posed that question was like, but I, I don't know if it would work. I don't know if, like that. Just, just believe in yourself. Just believe in yourself, you know?
- [19:00]
Massimo
Yeah.
- [19:00]
James Victori
So you're gonna have to trust yourself, which is hard. And, and, and, and, and that means trust your creat of that. You're going to have to trust the work, you know, trust that the work is going to be there. And then on top of that, you're gonna have to trust your audience and that they will follow you and that, you know, and that's, that's a hard part for people. It's like, but what about my clients? What about. I'm like, okay, listen, you know, talk to them, be honest. Tell them what's, tell them what to think. Tell them what to think. Most designers, here's the thing, most designers are like, you probably have had this conversation before. My mother doesn't know what I do for a living. You know, that kind of thing. You know, my clients don't know what I, who I am, don't know what I do. They don't understand me, blah, blah, blah. That's because you haven't told them. That's because you haven't set the boundary. Because you fucking haven't. Tell them what to think. Tell them who you are. Tell them how to treat you. Tell them where the respect is. Educate them. As far as, you know, what you do. You know, I've got so many people who, who have this, like this block, these pre recorded voices that, you know, that basically came from their parents because they know that their parents technically really don't support them. And you know, might be parents, it might be their partner, you know, their wife. Like, hey, I want to make this transition in my, in my work, but excuse me, my wife, you know, she needs the dough, she wants the, you know, she wants the income. And I have to talk to these people and say, okay, here, here's, here's how you do this. Talk to them honestly. Sit them down, look them in the eye and say, hey, this is important to me and it would mean the world to me and it would go much easier if I knew I had your support and your backing and you trusted me. Right. You know, a lot of times we just cut ourselves off without even understanding why we're cutting ourselves off. And the trust thing is huge. It's a big part of it. And I understand the, There is a, there is part of the fear. A big part of the fear is the money. But my business will take a shot. But, but if I change jobs, you know, or if I go from my job into my, you know, into my passion, which you don't just quit your job and do your passion. That's just dumbass shit right there. But, you know, what you do is you turn the volume down on the job. So you can turn the volume up on yourself and focus on your creativity. And you need to understand that if you do a good job and there is, there is, there is a, there is a path, there are steps to take. If you do a good job and follow the path, then your creativity is there to support you. Right. You will end up making more bread following and be happier. There's, there's, there's so many more ROIs on the other side than just. Yeah, than just, you know, learning to like the taste of shit. You know, I've had so many conversations with creatives who basically, basically, they, they're basically saying, I got really good at something I hate doing. Yeah.
- [22:08]
Massimo
Wow, that is handcuffs. Right?
- [22:11]
James Victori
Right. I got really good at this job that I hate. I've got, I've Got people who I work with, you know, as in, in a coaching situation. Creative directors for Disney or creative directors for, for Hearst magazines in New York. Hate their job. Which is, which is ludicrous. You shouldn't be in that position. You know, they took a, they, they, they were born wildly creative. They held on to that, that flame throughout childhood, which is hard to do. Went to a creative college, got a creative degree, then got a creative job, only to realize a couple years ago, a couple years later, that it's actually just a job. Yes, you can make money, you know, at any job. You can be unhappy at any job. Why be unhappy at a quote unquote creative job?
- [22:56]
Massimo
Yeah, yeah, no kidding. So then this totally aligns with authenticity then within, within yourself. And this will show in the work you do, the way you extend yourself, the way you meet people. No.
- [23:09]
James Victori
Yeah. I think it's called self respect. Yeah. Yeah.
- [23:15]
Massimo
Geez. So then how, how is this going to be achievable then in that sense for some of these people? Because I mean, again, it's, it's, you're right, they're golden handcuffs. They've got this sheep mentality. You were there, you were, you were doing book covers and you were damn good at it. Like what is this first step for them? How is this achievable? Is not even achievable.
- [23:33]
James Victori
It is, it is, it is. It totally is achievable. But it demands trust. Again, it demands the trust. It, it's going to, you have to understand that it's not going to happen in a day. Right. It takes time and patience. There is a path that you know that you need to understand. It does involve, like I said, turning the volume down on work. Like figuring out like how not to give all of your best energies. Like you don't want. The way you, the way you, way you cultivate a passion project is not. At 10:00 at night, after you've fed the kids, walk the dog, put the kids to bed. Now you're exhausted and now you're gonna go pretty creative, right? That's. You gotta find the time of day where you're, where your energy is best and strongest. Mine's 4:30 in the morning. That's why, because by 6:30 in the morning, I'm. Dad. Yeah. I get at least an hour to hour and a half to just like be by myself. No emails to respond to. I can just be out with a beautiful little coffee and sit out under the stars and just with my laptop and just write and just think.
- [24:36]
Massimo
Yes.
- [24:37]
James Victori
So you know, there are, There, There are, There are ways to do this. Yeah. And it depends on, it depends on the person and their, Their circumstances. And some people, Some people, they haven't talked to their, their, Their partners about it or haven't talked to their bosses about it. You know, so they just assume that it's not going to go well.
- [24:57]
Massimo
What about. How are people gonna overcome, or how do I put this without sounding like a dick? So there's this thing called this. What is it? Krueger effect, a Dunning Kruger effect, where people actually think they're much better than they actually are. Where's the sign that. Because heaven forbid one of those people go out on their own and start being authentic. And they're already shitty as a designer, but, you know, maybe they're making a couple ends meet here and they're doing small jobs and they think they have, like, where's that balance? How are they going to know?
- [25:28]
James Victori
Yeah, you know, there's no. You, you can't judge. You can't compare. You can't judge. It's not, it's just not. It's not cool if you. I often tell people because they're like, you know, they, they, they might think, not think they're very good. And I'm like, oh, it's okay. It's okay. But you got to put in the practice, because if you practice anything, you become good at it. It doesn't freaking matter. I've watched people's careers and have been contact with people through, through Instagram. I've watched them over the years, and I'm like, they make me jealous now. I saw them, you know, starting to draw, you know, shitty flowers, and all of a sudden I'm like, oh, my God, that's amazing. It's going to take some time and bully for you for thinking that you're better than you are. That's going to help you. And listen, there is an audience for everybody. There is an audience for everybody. When I tell people who are just starting and they're like, they've got a little passion project, I just want to paint flowers. And I'm like, okay, listen, you have an audience. You need to understand that. That they don't know it yet. And you don't know it yet, but they will reveal themselves. If you keep going with consistency, it will happen. There's an audience for everybody. Don't ever tell me, well, this person sucks. They don't suck. They suck to you. Yeah, that's not important. I'm. You know, people are always writing to Me and saying, hey, James, take a look at my portfolio and blah, blah. I'm like, here's my pat answer. I don't care. I'm not going to look at your worth because I'm a terrible judge.
- [27:02]
Massimo
Yes.
- [27:02]
James Victori
I'm a terrible judge of my own sense of humor. I'm a terrible judge of my own sensuality or sexuality. I'm a terrible judge of my own work. I'm going to be a terrible judge for you. We all are terrible judges of ourselves. So don't judge your work. Just keep making, Just keep making.
- [27:19]
Massimo
Brilliant. Brilliant, right? Oh, geez. No, absolutely brilliant. I wish, I wish I could have talked out to all the props that I had in college.
- [27:27]
James Victori
Oh, I wish someone would have talk to me, you know, like this when I was freaking 20. Yeah, right?
- [27:33]
Massimo
Yeah, I know, I know.
- [27:35]
James Victori
So you're, listen.
- [27:40]
Massimo
20, 40, or even you now. So, so your work is, is very, it's free, it's very bold. It's, it's, it's raw, you know, it's, it's true. Okay. Do you feel with all the shit that's out there right now, all the technology and AI, that, that modern design is losing its soul? Because people are jumping on apps and they're jumping on programs to do all the work for them. And I'm not even talking about AI.
- [28:08]
James Victori
There, yeah, there is a, there is a fear of that, you know, I mean, because of all the programs and like, like, you know, here I'm gonna, I'm gonna shoot myself in the foot here. You know, Adobe Max just had their big conference, right? That is, that is, that was a, a hive full of worker bees who I know are probably creatively frustrated, but they're, they're, they're, they're learning the tools because they think there's an answer in the tools because they want their logos to look like logos. Right? But, but I mean, if I was on stage there and I asked the artists to raise their hands, I'd probably get out of a group of 10,000 people, I'd probably get, you know, 20 people sheepishly raising their hand going, I think I'm an artist. Right? You know, and that's the, that's the core of where we come from. So. Yeah, no, I think, I think giving our creative freedoms away to the tools is, is a problem, or not trusting our, our creative selves or what the tools do for us is a level of perfection. Perfection slash boredom. Like, I, you know, I see these guys who are, who are super, super famous online for, you know, for Logos, and they show you logo instructionals. And I'm like, God, you guys are teaching anal retentive skills. Like who. You know, their logos are all so perfect, and they talk about the balance and the lines, and I'm like, no, I want none of that in my work. I want humanity in my work. I want other people to go. A person had a good time making that. That. That resonates with me.
- [29:51]
Massimo
Yeah. So how do they. How do. How do designers then reconnect instead of. Sorry. Instead of designing for likes, designing for themselves or for legacy? How do we break free from this kind of mold? Because you're absolutely right.
- [30:06]
James Victori
You know, I don't want to be right. I'm just right for me. But I think. I think. I think it has to. You know, it has to come from inside. It has to have. It has to have that.
- [30:15]
Massimo
That. That.
- [30:16]
James Victori
That inner calling. Right. It has to come like, you. You know, okay, it's like this. It's like this. What made you weird as a kid? Did making anal retentive logos, you know, is that what you aspired to when you were a kid? Cool. Do that. But if you aspire to, like, in, you know, to making. To making, you know, a melted pile of crayons, that's awesome. If you aspire to painting or aspire to singing or even singing. Ugly. Awesome.
- [30:45]
Massimo
Yeah, that's great, actually.
- [30:46]
James Victori
I love that.
- [30:48]
Massimo
So, okay, talking about kids now going into adults, you. You have literally your decades into this, and. And we talked about this. We joked about this before. It's like every decade, you're reinventing yourself over and over and over.
- [31:01]
James Victori
Yeah, I got it off.
- [31:04]
Massimo
The thing is, you're teaching people that essentially. Were you, when you started in this, that were being difficult.
- [31:12]
James Victori
Is.
- [31:13]
Massimo
Is there a sense of ageism or intimidation or. Or, like, is there an underlying ageism issue? Right. And I mean, going from designer to educator, you know, that seems like a normal transition that people do to be taken seriously. They're getting older now I'm an educator. But then you went to an author, which, again, elevates it to a whole new level. And then, you know, you keep going. But now you're. You're kind of mentoring. It seems like you're doing things, you know, Is ageism a thing? Have you felt it? Do you feel.
- [31:39]
James Victori
No, totally. Totally. You know, and I was thinking about this when I was, like, in my 30s.
- [31:43]
Massimo
Yeah.
- [31:43]
James Victori
I was thinking. I was thinking, okay, what's gonna happen is at some point, people are gonna see me as, you know, 40.
- [31:53]
Massimo
Yeah.
- [31:54]
James Victori
And they're like, here, you know, here's the lives of the artist. You know, the first life. Your first life is when you're, you know, you're just out of school and you're doing something. You think you're good and you want to make it, and you're. That's like, that's like, who is Massimo? That's the first life. The second one is when you're doing something good, you know, and people say, get me Massimo. Right? That's, that's, that's, that's their second life. Your third life is get me someone like Massimo. Right? That's when they want, that's when they want the cheaper version of you. And, and the fourth version is who is Massimo? Yeah, yeah, yeah, Right. So you want to stay away from that fourth one. Definitely. You want to stay away from the third one, too. But, but I realized even when I was in my 30s, I was like, you know what? At some point, you phase out, and people just want the younger version. People want the cheaper version. And I, and I, and I saw it happening. You know, people were like, oh, I, I, I can hire people who can do what you could do. And I'm like, okay, go. Go for it. And then when I got a little older, I realized the one thing that people would want once you start getting, you know, a little gray in the temple, is wisdom. That's what people would want. They might not want, you know, commercial design from you, but they would want wisdom. So how do I transition? How do I transition there? And then Covid came along and took away my travel ability, because that's what I was doing for a living, was I was traveling around the world giving, you know, corporate workshops and conference workshops. I was inviting people to come to my place to learn with me and do workshops. And Covid took that completely away. So I had to kind of really, kind of step back again and go, okay, what do I do? What do I like to do? And how do I get paid for it?
- [33:44]
Massimo
Yeah.
- [33:45]
James Victori
And that's where, you know, just teaching and teaching online and just being a resource for people and writing. So, like, I'm actually spending a lot more time writing these days than, Than designing.
- [33:57]
Massimo
Yeah. Are you, are you feeling the effects of just getting tired of keeping up with his social game and, and doing interviews and podcasts and just kind of being pulled in 20 directions?
- [34:08]
James Victori
No, no. It's all play to me as long as I can. You know, I mean, obviously, I think, I think I've been fairly, fairly, you know, honest in myself with you guys, right? If, you know, as long as it's play, if I have to feel like I'm performing, if I have to feel like I have to be somebody else, you know, it's like I've said it a million times in a million different ways, you know, over the years and somet that sometimes it might strike people as wrong. But, you know, I just want to get paid to be James Victoria. That makes my life very easy. Really, like, oh, I just have to be. I just have to be James Victoria. Awesome. It's kind of the opposite of being an actor where you have to be paid to be someone else. Right. You know, I'm just like, I got to pay. I got to be. If you like it, pay me. If you don't like it, don't pay me. I don't care. I keep my overhead low, you know, know, you know, I've got a nice little life. I, you know.
- [34:59]
Massimo
Do you still have your studio?
- [35:00]
James Victori
I have a studio, yeah. I've got, technically, I've got two here. I've got, you know, a little wood shop and then I've got the kitchen table and then I've got a big studio upstairs that I never touch.
- [35:12]
Massimo
No, no, I mean, I mean, I mean. So this is for you. This is for James Vittori stuff. Do you still have, are you still operating your own studio where you're doing commercial work out of like with, yeah. Like a small team and everything. And that's where you are, right? Because you're in, in Texas now.
- [35:24]
James Victori
Yeah, in Texas, outside of Austin. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [35:27]
Massimo
And, and so that's.
- [35:28]
James Victori
No, well, this is, this is my, this is my little recording studio. So I've got like a, you know, I've got a little, a little, I don't know, multi disciplinary, you know, thing going on.
- [35:39]
Massimo
So what's, what, what's the main thing that's frustrating you now more than ever about design? Modern day design?
- [35:45]
James Victori
You mean my own work or other people's work in the world?
- [35:48]
Massimo
I think the industry in general, like, is there something that you're seeing and you're just like, ah.
- [35:53]
James Victori
Oh. I mean, I think the fear of AI is a big, you know, that's, that's kind of, I mean, I, I, I, I, I haven't figured out. I haven't once found myself going, oh, AI, that's pretty groovy. I haven't found that yet. I see the images and I'm like, that looks like the new, the new, the new life of stock photography. Very cool. Or when I Read stuff that you can tell, it's, you know, chat GPT ish. You know, or when I hear people using chat GPT to, you know, I wrote a children's book with Chad and I'm like, off. You did not. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [36:29]
Massimo
You didn't do. Yeah.
- [36:33]
James Victori
You know, that's the thing. One of the things I hate about when. And you know, I don't know how my Instagram has gotten filled up with this, but, you know, the amount of millionaires out there, the 24 year old millionaires, I'm like, you know, gag me with a spoon, as they used to say. Yeah, if that's even. Stop selling that dream to people. Stop selling that dream. Exactly. Yeah.
- [36:53]
Massimo
So if there's one thing that you would recommend designers need to work on in 2025, then what do you feel.
- [36:58]
James Victori
That is believing in themselves. Right. It's hard to believe. You know, I've got, I've got adults who, you know, in my coaching program, and I really have to, I really have to train them to believe that they're actually good, to believe that they're creative. You know, it's hard. It's hard. What we do for a living is very difficult because it demands our own things of our own personality, and then we can't take it personally or else we'll get killed. Right. So, you know, if you can. If. And I think the hardest part of teaching creativity to adults is, is, is getting them to allow their creativity. Most of us keep it, Keep it kind of, you know, they, they're afraid to, to share it. They're afraid to, to, to express that because it's a challenge to who they are, you know, because it'll get, it'll get critiqued or someone will. Someone might not like it. And I have to tell people, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Somebody will not like it. Of course. That's how it works. Yeah, you can't worry about that. Yeah, somebody's not gonna. Nobody, you know, not everybody likes what James Victoria says or does. That's fine. I'm not for everybody. You know, as I say, I'm not for everybody. Just the sexy people. People.
- [38:13]
Massimo
We all want to be the sexy. I agree.
- [38:15]
James Victori
We, you know, we don't all want to be. Some people like, like to be kind of like closed and, you know, private. That's okay.
- [38:23]
Massimo
But you're right, though, dude. There's, you know, you don't have to be perfect for everybody. You just. There's going to be a group of people that'll want your Vibe. They'll. They'll like your style. They'll like you for who you are. And those are the ones that you just got to tap into.
- [38:36]
James Victori
Correct? Even. Even, like we were talking earlier, you know, even if. Even if you have that. That Kruger Dunning syndrome or Dunning Kruger syndrome, you know, even then you'll find your audience. Don't worry about it. You know, the, the, the, the. Again, we can't judge and we can't compare. You know, one of the highest paid living artists is this guy, Mr. Doodle. You know, he just makes black and white doodles on everything, and guy's a freaking millionaire. Is it good work? I don't know. I don't know. Kind of looks like bad Keith Haring, but, you know, don't ask me. Right? So don't. We can't judge. Just keep going. Just keep going.
- [39:13]
Massimo
Yeah.
- [39:14]
James Victori
Sound like a. Like Dory, you know, just keep swimming.
- [39:19]
Massimo
All right, last question. Because I. I can keep talking to you all day about this.
- [39:23]
James Victori
Last question.
- [39:27]
Massimo
That's a trick question, you see, because then we're going to go into something special. So if you had to give yourself your younger self advice, what would it be?
- [39:38]
James Victori
If I had to give my younger self advice, I would say, take all the bread you're spending on drink. Put it aside. That would be one thing, right? I used to always think about that. Even when I was drinking a lot. I was like, man, all the money I spent on Budweiser, I think, relax. I think that's the biggest thing I think. I think if I had. If I could. If I could be a, you know, the Ghost of Christmas, you know, to come for my younger self, I would just, you know, put my hand on my shoulder and say, dude, it's all gonna happen. Just relax. Yeah, Because I think. I think we. I think we. We tend to, you know, stress and worry too much about. About this stuff and that, that, that. That'll kill your creativity right there. That'll, you know, that. That adds a level of fear to what. Whatever you're doing. Cool. Yeah. Wow.
- [40:30]
Massimo
All right. We're not finished yet. But I'm trying to be. I'm trying to be respectful to your time. But we do finish every one of these interviews with a rapid round of questions.
- [40:39]
James Victori
Oh, I hate this. My mind don't look like that.
- [40:42]
Massimo
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, good. Some of these I think we know, but after this talk. But. But some of these maybe not. We're going to keep it simple. We'll try to keep it under two minutes, which I doubt will Happen. But. Okay. Ready? All right.
- [40:56]
James Victori
Yep.
- [40:56]
Massimo
Mac or PC?
- [40:57]
James Victori
Mac.
- [40:58]
Massimo
Favorite type of music?
- [40:59]
James Victori
Oh, I'm listening to a lot of Eddie Vedder right now. So.
- [41:02]
Massimo
Crazy. If you had to design using only one color, what would it be?
- [41:07]
James Victori
Black.
- [41:08]
Massimo
Your favorite thing to collect.
- [41:10]
James Victori
I collect. I've. I've stopped collecting a lot of stuff. What do I collect? I love bladed instruments. So I like. I love buzzsaw blades and I love. Yeah. Have you ever seen the. The two man saws? Oh, yeah. Lumberjacks. I love. I love anything with. Anything with blades on them. Anything that cuts. It's been Kawasaki for a long time.
- [41:38]
Massimo
Very cool. Best place to find creative inspiration.
- [41:41]
James Victori
My house. Nice.
- [41:44]
Massimo
Paint pen or sumi brush?
- [41:46]
James Victori
Ooh, I gotta choose. I'm gonna go with. With. With paint. Paint pen. You know why I hate brushes? I love sumi brushes. I love sumi brushes. But you know why I hate them is because I'm left handed. And if you think about it, if you think about it, when you're writing, when you're writing and you got a brush full of ink, I have to push it. Push? Yeah. Instead of, instead of being right handed and pulling it the way it's supposed to work. So I hate because I can tell when somebody. Somebody's right handed and can use a brush. I have to push it and then I have to watch that my hand doesn't drag through the air. So.
- [42:27]
Massimo
So everything, all of your artwork has been done left handed?
- [42:30]
James Victori
Yeah. Yeah. Wow.
- [42:31]
Massimo
Crazy. All right, worst design trend right now.
- [42:34]
James Victori
Homogeneity. Homogeneous. Homogeneous.
- [42:40]
Massimo
That does feel like they're working now. Coffee or tea?
- [42:43]
James Victori
Coffee. Coffee. Coffee and coffee.
- [42:48]
Massimo
Puppies or kittens?
- [42:50]
James Victori
Puppies.
- [42:51]
Massimo
New York strip or Texas brisket?
- [42:54]
James Victori
New York strip butter braised. Who.
- [42:59]
Massimo
Who'd win in a fight? A cowboy or a ninja?
- [43:02]
James Victori
Oh, probably a ninja. Sadly.
- [43:07]
Massimo
Favorite artist, Pastor president.
- [43:12]
James Victori
Saying Picasso seems trite, but I gotta go with him. And Banksy.
- [43:18]
Massimo
Banksy. Banksy. Cool Picasso. Now I know where the dirty mind comes from. So good on you. Which is closer to your heart? Rgb, CMYK or ryb?
- [43:29]
James Victori
I don't know what ryb. I don't know what RYB is. And I don't really. I don't really pay attention to those things. Sorry, I'm like so out of it with computers.
- [43:41]
Massimo
Ryb is playing his paint. Your paintbrushes is using real links.
- [43:45]
James Victori
No, but those are computer versions of them. Those are electronic.
- [43:48]
Massimo
No, I'm saying real life. I'm guessing it's going to be the real life paint. No. Oh.
- [43:52]
James Victori
Oh, that would be cmyk. Yeah.
- [43:55]
Massimo
Serif or non serif? Sam, what scares you more, failure or success?
- [44:00]
James Victori
I actually think success. I actually think success. I. Because I'm, I'm doing things. You know, you talk about like me going into different, you know, versions of me. That's the new one is really, really facing that fear of success and just going, you know what, I'm gonna drag you there. I'm asking the world for a lot right now.
- [44:27]
Massimo
Yeah.
- [44:28]
James Victori
Nice.
- [44:28]
Massimo
Street art or gallery Art?
- [44:29]
James Victori
Art. Street galleries.
- [44:33]
Massimo
Road tring. Mechanical pencil or Faber Castell wooden pencil?
- [44:37]
James Victori
Wooden.
- [44:38]
Massimo
Nice. True or false? AI is a new form of art.
- [44:42]
James Victori
False.
- [44:43]
Massimo
What's your guilty pleasure?
- [44:47]
James Victori
I was gonna say the gut. My gut said muffins, Cupcakes.
- [44:58]
Massimo
One thing every artist should try at least once.
- [45:01]
James Victori
Failure. Like just, just make work and that's that, you know, like just make something and stick it out in the world. Like, don't judge, don't look, just do it. Yeah. Risk, failure.
- [45:14]
Massimo
Cool. Best advice you've ever received?
- [45:17]
James Victori
I don't think I've ever received it in the form of advice, but I've received it in the, in what I get from my mentors. Like, you know, like, like I was lucky enough to hang out with, with heroes of mine like Ivan Chermayev and you know, Paul Rand and some other guys and there was always a level of play that I think I got from them.
- [45:40]
Massimo
That's cool. That's really cool. And last but not least, one thing that always makes you angry.
- [45:50]
James Victori
One thing that always makes me angry is gee whiz, I don't know the way some people drive. Turn signal and use. It's a turn signal.
- [46:08]
Massimo
New York doesn't have roundabouts, does it? Because let me tell you that. That'll work it for you. That'll work it for you.
- [46:15]
James Victori
I love driving in New York.
- [46:18]
Massimo
Not too bad, not too bad. You know, you finished the two minute lightning round in six minutes, so good job. That's really good.
- [46:23]
James Victori
It's better than a lot of people.
- [46:25]
Massimo
We've had some people up close to 10 minutes. That's why I had to give you some extra time.
- [46:29]
James Victori
A lot of disclaimers or they want things.
- [46:31]
Massimo
Oh yeah, everywhere. Yeah. So, so let's, let's finish this off with what are you working on right now? I know you've got some mentorship.
- [46:41]
James Victori
I know you've got some course I've got. Yeah, I'm doing them. I'm working with coaching people in a couple different forms. I'm about to release a, a course that's going to Start in January. It's called design thinking and Unthinking. I am going to release the podcast and working on the new book.
- [47:04]
Massimo
So how are they going to find you? How can our angry designers find you?
- [47:08]
James Victori
Usually the. Usually where I'm. Where I play and where I practice and where I announce things is on Instagram, and that's just at James Victoria. My website is. Is called your work is a gift.
- [47:22]
Massimo
Love that question. Do you still have. Okay, I've been on there. I've been in the shop. I want copies of some of your older stuff. Do you have that stuff kicking around somewhere in your studio?
- [47:33]
James Victori
I have originals of some of them. The archives have gotten a bit thin, but I need to. I. I need to re. I need to reinvestigate, as they call it. I don't know. I need to look and put some of the old stuff up, you know, print vert, you know, what is it called? You know, reproductions of some of the stuff. I need to do that. I should. I would like to do that, especially this series that I did for the Department of Justice a couple years ago, because those are. They're brilliant. I need that kitty in my life. They're really. They're really lovely in real life, too. So, yeah, I gotta figure out how to make that.
- [48:17]
Massimo
That.
- [48:18]
James Victori
Make that happen. I just don't have the help for that right now. I'm. I'm.
- [48:21]
Massimo
I'm.
- [48:21]
James Victori
I'm down to, you know, to one person besides me, and I need. I need someone to really focus. If I'm gonna do the shop correctly, I need somebody to really focus on it.
- [48:31]
Massimo
Yeah, well, I mean. I mean, from a personal level, I'll hit you up afterwards, but whatever you got kicking around, if I. I will gladly buy and put in my office. I. I need some James V for daily inspiration.
- [48:43]
James Victori
Cool. Listen, man, hit me up and tell me your budget, and then I'll. I'll fulfill.
- [48:48]
Massimo
All right. Honestly, this. This is a long time coming, so I'm really glad. I mean, I used to be scared as hell from you. I. I mean, I wanted to return to 10 years.
- [48:56]
James Victori
It's weird. I don't. I don't get that. I mean, again, it's the. It's the passion slash angry thing. I don't know.
- [49:03]
Massimo
Italian blood.
- [49:04]
James Victori
Yeah, I'm. I'm, you know, I'm a fun guy. Come on.
- [49:09]
Massimo
You know what? Hey, this is where the angry comes from. People are like, why are you always so angry when you talk? And I'm like, I' angry. I'm Italian.
- [49:17]
James Victori
This is how we talk. Yeah. Yeah.
- [49:20]
Massimo
Thank you, James, for doing this with us, man. And, you know, I encourage everybody, every one of our angry designers to, you know, check James out, check out his history, check out some of his old talks. There is so much brilliance in. In just how to improve your life, how to improve your career, and. And even just. Just the inspiration. And this. This is, man, hands down, no kissing ass. But this has been the most inspirational interview that I've had so far.
- [49:44]
James Victori
You guys are. You guys are too kind. I appre.
- [49:47]
Massimo
Hey, we're Canadian. That's what we're doing, so. All right, everybody. My name is Massimo.
- [49:53]
James Victori
My name is Sean.
- [49:53]
Massimo
And you are?
- [49:54]
James Victori
I am James. Victor. Yeah.
- [49:57]
Massimo
Stay creative and stay angry.
- [50:02]
James Victori
I feel like I'm losing my mind? Everybody in the world d please lord.
- [50:10]
C
Give me a sign a sign I want to be the greatest everybody on the face I look around I feel like everybody is the fakers? I make this every day and I'm impatient hoping one day I blow up from the basement statement the top is so vacant I don't hear that I think is amazing? Waiting for my day when I'm playing sold out shows for a thousand faces hey, give me that crown? Get in my way and you'll be put down it ain't your place I'll dis my town if I want that then I'll get it right now I'm losing it the noose it fits some loose a stupid myth you try choose to live or choose to dip you choose to fight or lose your grip and lose a gift Oh, I feel like I'm losing my mind?
- [50:47]
James Victori
Everybody in the world d please lord, give me a sign a sign.