Why Graphic Designers Struggle with Client Communication and How Avoiding Calls Is Costing You

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Angry Designer

Episode: Why Graphic Designers Struggle with Client Communication and How Avoiding Calls Is Costing You
Date: April 14, 2026
Hosts: Massimo & Sean

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Overview

This episode dives into a common but quietly destructive habit among graphic designers: avoiding direct client communication, especially phone and live voice calls. Hosts Massimo and Sean break down how this reluctance to pick up the phone erodes confidence, client trust, business growth, and ultimately a designer’s career. Packed with honest stories, firm opinions, and actionable advice, the episode urges creative professionals to get comfortable with real conversation as a competitive advantage in an increasingly digital world.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: The Pizza Rustica Story ([00:00]–[04:08])

• Massimo shares a personal anecdote about his daughter’s anxiety about calling a restaurant.
• "It was like I asked her to kill a baby puppy or something… Just call them! People want to talk to people." (Massimo, [02:47])
• This anecdote parallels the fear many young designers feel when prompted to call clients instead of relying on endless emails.

2. Avoidance of Real-Time Communication in Design Studios ([04:08]–[07:10])

• Designers spend hours untangling convoluted email threads rather than calling to clarify.
• Designers often prefer DM/Slack/Zoom (without video) or delay real conversation by scheduling meetings far in advance.
• "It's like they'd rather spend an hour trying to write a paragraph than pick up the phone." (Massimo, [04:44])

3. How Industry-wide Communication Has Changed ([07:10]–[10:25])

• Reflection on how, pre-digital, calls and faxes were mandatory.
• The proliferation of communication tools has made direct conversation rare, generating more miscommunication and anxiety.
• "Now the whole communication part is completely non-existent… they put all these stop gaps in place to make it harder to communicate." (Massimo, [08:19])

4. The False Comfort of Text-Based Communication ([10:25]–[13:36])

• Email/text lets designers carefully control their message, but at the expense of clarity and connection.
• Anxiety around missing details on calls is real, but emails don’t provide detail either—hence the 30-message threads.
• "In real person, you can't hide behind that… I think that freaks a lot of people out." (Massimo, [11:44])

5. Why Designers Haven’t Learned to Communicate ([13:36]–[15:50])

• Design education and onboarding focus on tools, tech, and process, not on how to be human or persuasive in clients’ eyes.
• "Designers have learned all their tools, but they haven't learned how to stay human." (Massimo, [13:37])
• Massimo describes needing to teach email etiquette during new-employee onboarding.

6. Debunking Client Communication Myths ([15:50]–[19:09])

Massimo and Sean call out common “designer myths” around communication:

• “Email is more professional” – Not true; emails just feel safer.
• “I need time to think before I respond” – Actually, phone calls produce clarity more quickly.
• “The work should speak for itself” – Designers lose the chance to explain their thinking if they don’t present their concepts live.
• “I don’t want to bother the client” – Clients are passionate about their projects; they want to talk to you.
• “Written communication is more efficient” – It’s often slower and creates miscommunication.

Notable quote:
"You don't know if somebody's joking, being sarcastic… almost everybody successful is a good communicator. It's a superpower.” (Massimo, [19:12])

7. How Human Connection Unlocks Opportunity ([19:09]–[26:35])

• The best relationships and biggest opportunities stem from live conversation and small talk—not from high-efficiency email exchanges.
• “In one phone call, you can go from just being another designer to: wow, this guy really knows what he’s talking about.” (Massimo, [23:21])
• Illustrates with real client stories, including a “rambling” client whose calls nonetheless led to $300,000–$500,000 in business.

8. The Power of Small Talk: The BlackBerry/RIM Story ([26:35]–[29:10])

• Massimo’s unscripted call to a client leads to venting about internal company frustrations, leading to a business-expanding product idea.
• “That came through conversation... We built millions of dollars because we created a platform for them. That wouldn’t have happened if I’d just emailed ‘Hey, where’s the file?’” (Massimo, [28:42])

9. Simple Rules for Effective Client Communication ([29:10]–[30:11])

Massimo’s practical tips:

• If the thread gets long: Call.
• If feedback is unclear: Call.
• If stakes are high, timeline is tight, or many people are involved: Call.
• If you want to grow your business/career: Call.

10. What’s at Stake: The Real Cost of Avoidance ([30:11]–[33:00])

• In a world of AI-generated, template-heavy communication, direct conversation is how you stand out and build trust.
• "People are going to be yearning for a human connection. People just have to pick up that phone and call." (Massimo, [30:12])

11. Good Communication Wins the Creative Game ([31:52]–[32:26])

• The key differentiator in a rapidly automating/AI-centric industry won’t be design skill—it will be the ability to influence, lead, and connect as a human.
• "We’re not going to win out-designing the future… the people who are going to win are the ones who can communicate and influence decisions.” (Massimo, [32:01])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the root cause of designer/friction:
  "Designers are constantly talking about not being taken seriously, not being a leader, not being viewed as an expert, yet they don't want to open up their mouths." (Massimo, [31:42])
• On breaking through with clients:
  “In one phone call, you can go from just being another designer to: wow, this guy really knows what he’s talking about.” (Massimo, [23:21])
• On lost opportunities:
  “By not picking up the phone… you’re missing massive opportunities. They don’t come from email… They come from fucking small talk.” (Massimo, [26:35])
• On human connection vs. AI:
  "We're not going to out-design the future. The people who are going to win are the ones who can communicate…That doesn't happen by responding to emails." (Massimo, [32:01])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:00–04:08: The Pizza Rustica “fear of calling” analogy
• 07:10–10:25: How email, messaging, and tools changed designer-client rapport
• 15:50–19:09: The “myths” holding designers back from communication
• 23:19–26:35: The ROI of picking up the phone (client loyalty, revenue)
• 26:35–29:10: The BlackBerry (RIM) story—how a single call unlocked a million-dollar pivot
• 29:10–30:11: Quick, practical “rules” for when to call clients
• 30:11–33:00: How direct communication is the superpower of the next decade

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Tone & Language

The conversation is direct, candid, occasionally irreverent, yet supportive and encouraging—typical of The Angry Designer. Massimo especially uses vivid stories, humor, and the occasional f-bomb to cut through excuses and drive home the value of human connection.

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Takeaway

If there’s one call to action: STOP hiding behind emails and texts. Whether you’re a freelancer, in-house designer, or agency pro, growth comes from real client conversations—not from a perfectly crafted email. Pick up the phone, clarify, connect, and you’ll stand out in a crowd of digital noise.

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Closing Advice

“Stay creative. Stay angry. Pick up the phone and call someone you love.”
— Massimo, [33:22]

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For further discussion or to share your own stories, reach out to The Angry Designer via their newsletter or social channels.

Transcript

[A]

Did you ever notice how designers will literally do anything to avoid a simple conversation? Like, you'll sit there and try to diagnose a 27 email thread, trying to decode what the heck that they actually want. Rewriting the same sentence for like the fifth, sixth time, stressing over tone, word choice, literally second guessing everything, hoping that this time will be the one time that they actually understand what you're giving them. And somehow it's. It just keeps getting worse. You do good work, but your client might start losing confidence in your abilities. And the sad part is you don't even realize this is happening. In this episode of the Angry Designer podcast, powered by wix Studio, we are calling out the one thing that designers keep avoiding that's quietly killing their growth, their confidence, and, yeah, their career. Because if. If you don't actually try to fix this one thing, it's not your work that's going to be holding you back. Let's go. So, went to Toronto last week.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. For March break. Took the kids, you know, we rented an Airbnb. We stayed down there for a few nights. Right? Just for change, something different, right? We went to the aquarium. We, you know, we went to ComicCon. Right? All these really cool venues, right? And it was all walking distance. Because the thing that sucks about going to Toronto is the traffic.

[B]

Yes. If you're driving through that rhubarb.

[A]

Not very fun, right?

[B]

No, not good.

[A]

So, okay, in our walking, we pass by this Italian restaurant called Pizza Rustica. Okay. And it was like an old school Italian, like, I'm talking checkered board tablecloths, right? Old school chairs, big old bar, right? Like, you walk by it and it's like you could smell the tomato sauce just wafting from here, right? So this was. So we walked by it the one night, right? I was like, wow, that's a really cool place. So the next morning, talking to, you know, my daughter, we're like, well, what should we do for dinner tonight? Right? For. For the whole family? And she's like, hey, why don't we, you know, check out that Italian restaurant?

[B]

You're not, like, you're not big on Italian restaurants though, right?

[A]

But you had to see this place. Yeah.

[B]

So.

[A]

So I was willing to give it a shot. So I'm like, okay, I'm like, you know what? Like, hook it up. You know, give him a shout and, and just make sure that, you know, all of us can go. Because there was like seven of us, right? Hour later, she comes back and she's like, dad, I. I can't figure out how to, you know, make a reservation, right? And I'm like, well, okay, fine. Like, you know, because again, she went to. They weren't on open table. They weren't. They didn't have anything on their website. And I'm like, like, well, just. Just call them, right? And it's like. It was like a record needle scratch. What?

[B]

You want me to do what?

[A]

She's like, I'm not gonna call him. And I'm like, what are you talking about? Call him, right? Like, that's. That's why there's a phone number on the website. Just. And it was like I asked her to kill a baby puppy or something. A puppy. Like, it was the most ridiculous. So I'm like, okay, fine. Yeah, yeah, I'll show you how it's done.

[B]

This is how you do it.

[A]

Pick up the phone, right? Call. Sure enough, doesn't the fucking owner pick up the phone, right, Right? He's like, oh, yeah, Pizza rooster. I'm like, hey, how you doing? You know. You know what? You know, we're looking to get a table tonight. And he's like, oh, you know, we got tr. Night tonight. Might get kind of tricky, you know, because a lot of people are going to show up. And. And he's like, you know, how many of you are. I'm like, oh, there's, you know, seven of us. And this, that, this, that. And. And then. And so we're talking, and then he's like, okay, well, he goes, I'll see what I could do. What's your name? I'm like. And I'm like, massimo. And he's like, oh. All of a sudden, the whole conversation changed. Okay? It was like. It was like an episode of the Sopranos. Okay? I.

[B]

We.

[A]

We had a Sopranos moment. You know, needless to say, had this awesome booth, and it had this awesome neon sign, and, like. And my daughter's like, I thought they said that we couldn't do it. I'm like, dude, you just have to call. Like, that's it. You people want to talk to people.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And. And it just. It kind of. I thought it was hilarious because I go through that here all the time with our designers. You know, they'll come to me with an email thread that's like 30 emails long when they're like, I. I don't. I just can't figure out what they're wanting here. Can you? And I was like, yeah, yeah. Let me go through 29 emails prior to this just to try to. I'm like, Just call them. And then it's just a look on their face like, what you want me to call? Like, it is mindblowing. Okay. It's like they would rather spend an hour trying to write a paragraph.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You know.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

Not to mention the sip. I don't have the patience for the sift.

[B]

Oh, my God, those are awful.

[A]

But you know what? It's just. Hey, do you know them? Have you done work for them? Oh, yeah, they're great. I deal with them all the time. Then call them, for God's sake. So I don't. I don't understand. It's like, you know, they would rather DM people. They would rather, you know, get on Zoom, and, you know, and even Zoom is reluctant, especially because they don't often show their face on people on Zoom. Right. You only to, like, try to coordinate, to schedule something. Days in adv, just so they don't have to actually. Like, why. Why is this such a difficult thing for people to do?

[B]

It's funny, right? Like, because back in the old days, this is all. You had to do this.

[A]

And that is what I think is crazy, because, okay, back. Back when I started this company, we had phone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we had fax.

[B]

Fax. Right, right.

[A]

And okay, granted, yes, we had Internet. That was back early Internet days where you'd unplug the fax machine, plug it into the modem, and you. You were a ro. Star if you got one email a day, like, it's ridiculous. Right. But, I mean, it was a very different time to do business. And I don't think people realize now, you know, the effect that the past 20 years has had on. On not just the business, but on communication and. And how people communicate. Because people forget that people want to communicate with people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And if you can communicate in a human form, heaven for fricking.

[B]

Like.

[A]

Like, do it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because people are craving that by. By people avoiding this human conversation. It affects your own confidence, which I saw in my daughter, which I see in some of our designers back here. Right. Like, it affects their. Their whole credibility in the customer's eyes, because it's just, like, you're a faceless person that I'm just getting emails from, especially in an organization like ours, where it's like, we'll have multiple people, you know, having touch points with a customer. Right. They'll deal with many people, but oftentimes it's only me who gets on the phone with them. Right. Or even if I have to force Max sometimes she's a lot more Comfortable with it now. But yeah, it's just so. It's just like the industry has changed so much. And it's not just the industry. It's affected how people communicate, it's affected how business is done. And I can't say it's necessarily for the better.

[B]

Is it? Do you think it's on the other end too? Like the junior people at our clients, are they unwilling to get on the phone too as well?

[A]

I think they are because I actually don't think that it's designer specific. I really don't. I think so. This is across the board because again, when we started there was two ways of communication. We were comfortable, that was it. Right.

[B]

You had to call.

[A]

The whole industry has. I don't, and I don't even know why this happened, but it's like the industry has changed. You know, how communication, you know, is, was even performed. And now this new generation or even the, the next two generations after, when we were young, have basically been in this whole text first. Right, Right. All the communication tools have changed. It went from phone and, and you know, email once a day.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And an awesome fax machine. Why do those things never print better? It's a whole other story. But it went from that to then they created email which turned out to be a freaking nightmare. You know, text options, messaging options, Slack, you know, comments within like Figma, you know, project management, apps and stuff.

[B]

Yeah, there's no shortage of way of a way to get a message to some nowadays.

[A]

Well, and that's it, right? That's like. But the whole communication part, right? Completely non existent. Right. Like it's like they almost don't want you to have human contact with real people. And they, they put all these stop gaps in place to, to make it, make it that much harder to commute. And what that's done is it's just terrified people. And now a word from our sponsor. Designers. Let's be honest, Web design should be a graphic designer's job. It's bold, it's creative, it's experimental, and at its core it is design. Layout just brought to life online. But somewhere along the way, graphic designers lost it. Developers took over, tools got complicated and creativity took a backseat to code. Thing is, clients still expect us to bring their brand to life everywhere. And if we're not offering web design today, you're leaving money and potential opportunities on the table. That's where WIX Studio comes in. It's the web platform built for designers with a drag and drop interface that feels like a designer's tool plus no code, animations and AI powered tools, you can create fully custom websites that match your vision. Every pixel, every layout, every detail. So whether it's a simple branded brochure site or an online portfolio, or even a full blown ecommerce experience, wix Studio makes it all possible for graphic designers with tools that think like a designer, not like a developer. The web doesn't need more templates. It needs you and your creativity unleashed. And WIX Studio is going to give you that opportunity. So stop giving creativity away and take back the web for designers. Visit wixstudio.com and designed the web the way it was meant to be. When it's time to actually, you know, get that call in place, make a call, you know, clarify a problem, you know, lead. Lead a discussion instead of making, you know, that call. Or they just, they don't even want to talk, they just, they want to avoid the talk.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And I think that's the problem that people aren't realizing, you know, because as everything is getting so much more digital, right? And everything is just becoming, you know, inauthentic, vague. You don't even know what's real. We're gonna, you. The emails I get right now are fake.

[B]

Oh really?

[A]

Okay. More than half I have had, you know, solicitation emails, right, that are completely fake. They're total AI and I know that and I'm fine. And I'll, I'll mess with them, right? Or somebody will come in and you know, I want to set up a meeting. I'm like, you know, great, let's, let's do it, right? Within like 10 seconds I get a response and I'm like, I reply right away. I'm like, there's no way in hell you replied that fast. Haha, Nice. You know, while I love AI, you know, you're wrong. I'm just really efficient and I'm like, In the past 60 seconds we have had three email exchanges. Nobody is that efficient. Nobody. Like it is so. Right. So again, it's not, it's not even about the phone per se. I'm not saying that, you know, like the, you know, you have to get on your phone, you should. That's not what I'm saying. But it's like they've built this whole comfort thing, right? A text, an email, you know, comments. You have the chance to be very particular with the words you use in

[B]

an email or a text where on

[A]

the phone, you can't do that. You can edit your texts, your emails, you can spend an hour Writing the perfect email. God knows, fucking everybody does. Okay? And the thing is, in real person, in real life, you can't do that. You can't hide behind that. I think that freaks out a lot of people.

[B]

That is kind of a freaky experience because. And for my, from my personal experience, I don't mind, because I'm part of that old generation. I'm not a huge fan of the phone or not a talker.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But I still would be able to do it. But my biggest fear was not grabbing everything that the client was saying. You know what I mean?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Because that's the hardest part. When it's not written down. You can't go back to what that conversation was. You can now with, with like all our AI tools.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But back in the knows, in the old days, or, you know, when I was doing this. Yeah, you, you were. I was worried about missing details. Like, paranoid about, oh, I'm going to drop the ball on this or, or whatever. So in an email scenario, that's kind of good, where they could lay out what you're doing again, but that doesn't happen because people don't give you the details in the email either.

[A]

Absolutely. Right. Yeah. Hence why you get like a 30 email thread.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Ridiculous. And it's to the point where it's like they won't even start thread, you know, because then, you know, you. You're worried about, you know, covering your ass and this and that. But it's like, you know, there's so. It seems like, you know, this whole generation, designers and all these new, new people, I mean, they've spent so much time, you know, it's like the technology has changed really fast.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And. And the communication method has changed really fast. But what hasn't changed then? They haven't. Or. Sorry. What they. It hasn't done is it hasn't educated people on how to still be human.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. Which is insane. Right. I know that sounds weird, but it's like they learned how to do everything, right? Learned how to do typography and design. Designers have, you know, learned all their tools, but they haven't learned how to stay human. Which is kind of ironic. Right? Because as designers, we are supposed to connect with the end user. We're supposed to have this extra level, this heightened sense of empathy. Okay. Which is all about communication. But we've completely abandoned how to communicate, which is kind of ironic, isn't it? Right. So it's like nobody's trained them how to actually explain things and how to persuade customers and persuade. And again, that affects persuading ads. Right. You know, how to actually lead conversation. Nobody's taught them this.

[B]

Right. And who's. Who's to blame for that?

[A]

The industry?

[B]

Is it the industry? Is it people? Is it school?

[A]

No. Well, I mean, it's interesting, right? Like, I don't. I know who. Who do we point the finger?

[B]

I know blame on this kind of an interesting thing because. Or is it one of those learned experience things where you have to kind of dive in, which I wonder if

[A]

that's it, because another, Another crazy part is this happens all the time, you know, when I hire younger people. Yes. No disrespect to anybody who's younger, but when I do hire younger people, you know, and for the record, there are still people, younger people here, okay. That have been with us for years, that I still don't want. Want to communicate with the customer because they still don't know how to. Which is crazy. You know, their email, their business language, just, you know, their whole etiquette, okay. Is so it's like it's foreign to them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. And this is what I think has happened is, is just that everything has progressed, but the whole human part of this has just been kind of left off. Right. Nobody's been keeping that up. And how to integrate and teach that in schools and in, you know, like, studies. This is all on the job. Like part of our whole onboarding process when we bring someone on is how to actually write emails, which is insane, dude. It's mind blowing because this is. It must be learned. But it was something that was dropped, you know, was dropped when all this technology shit came up.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So much of our business is about, you know, the art of persuasion, that if you can't even communicate with people, you know, verbally, how are you supposed to do anything that's going to move people? It seems like they're so reluctant to actually communicate with people in real life about the communications. No, but they make up. Yeah, they make all these fake things I wrote. Okay, I got myths here. Like five stupid myths. Right. You always hear, well, email is more professional. Is it?

[B]

I don't think so.

[A]

Right. Like you're hiding behind. Right. It's not more professional. It's just safer. And I'm not saying that, you know, every time you pick up the phone and call a customer for every little, you know, tiny email communication.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But you can't tell me that email is more professional than picking up the phone or actually setting up a time to talk to somebody, because it's not, number two. Another myth. Right. I need time to think. Right. Which, again, that's why you're not going to pick up the phone. You're going to actually email. I'm not saying, you know, you know, you. You have to jump in and just kind of say what's on your mind, because God knows I could have got in trouble a lot of times if I pick up the phone when I'm feeling something. Right. But the reality is you don't necessarily need, you know, more time to think something through. You just. You need more clarity. So you can either get that through an email, which then comes back more confusing, which then sends a third email, which sends back more confusing, or you

[B]

can be like, hey, let's get on

[A]

a call, five minutes. Yeah, let me know. I just got some questions on this job.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Boom. Yeah, right. You don't need time to think. Yeah, right. It's that clarity bullshit. So, again, bullshit. Right. You know, the work should speak for itself. Okay. We always, you know, like, I don't need to, you know, actually present this to them. I'll just. Just email it over.

[B]

It's perfect as it is.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They'll get it.

[A]

Of course. Right. Of course. By doing this, designers won't have a chance to explain their thinking behind the job. Okay. And why. Why they got to that. It doesn't matter how big or small it is if you're just blindly emailing it and being like, what do you think? You know, like. No, you know, another one is. Is I don't want to bother them. Right.

[B]

Which is why I don't want to get on the horn and let the client talk about the thing that they're very passionate about.

[A]

Right, right, right. That is due Friday.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

They're frustrated because they're wondering why the hell I don't understand it. But, you know, I don't want to bother them.

[B]

I don't want to bother them asking

[A]

for asking questions to clarify this job.

[B]

Yeah. Talk about your thing.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yes. They love that kind of stuff. Oh, I would think any. Any client experience I've had on the call, if you're talking about what the project is, they're geeked about it because.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

It's kind of their baby. And they want you. They want you to understand it completely.

[A]

And they could, you know, they job on the line with this. They have, like, all kinds of things that are tied to this.

[B]

Exactly. And.

[A]

And the most ridiculous myth is that people think it's more efficient. Okay. Which is total.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. Because. Yes. While, you know, it might be more efficient for me to just send a quick text message to somebody.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All that means is I'm leaving out the human part, and I'm just kind of becoming like a robotic root form, you know, like, it's not efficient at all. And then, not to mention that that thread sometimes goes 2, 3, 5, 10, just to try to clarify a problem, because people. I don't think people realize a sentiment is completely lost.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

In digital form.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You don't know if somebody's joking, if they're being sarcastic. You know what they mean. Are they, you know, angry about this? Are they happy about this? Like. Like, we have some clients that you read their emails and they sound like they're yelling at you, but it's because they don't realize that cap locks is a faux pas. You know, almost everybody that I have met. Okay. That has been successful. Okay. Has been a good communicator, good talker. Okay. It's a superpower. Okay. And you need it to be successful. Whether that's a successful, you know, junior, a successful senior, you know, in. If. If you can't talk, if you can't communicate, you could be the best designer in the world. But you're going to be so strapped for any sort of progression in your life, like, anything at all. Because if you can't talk, you know, you can't. You don't show that you're confident. You know, you don't. You can't show that you have experience. You can't lead. In this case, every business owner I know, they're freaking great talkers. They, in fact, might even be shitty at the job, but they're so freaking good.

[B]

Good at the communication aspect of it.

[A]

You know, I think we've all, like, seen, you know, designers out there that, you know, aren't as good as they should be, but they can talk a good talk. They can explain. They're confident, they lead. Everybody's listening to them because they can communicate.

[B]

And also, too, like, I. I find that in the new era of. Of the. Our biggest client, there's a lot of people that I haven't met and I don't know them.

[A]

And.

[B]

And in the old days, you know, you know, you could put a face to the name. You talk to them on. On several occasions. You'd. You build that rapport with them, and it makes. It makes things 100 go a lot smoother.

[A]

100, absolutely. And it can be done through zoom. Right. Obviously, zoom is, like the newer way and that's cool.

[B]

It's. It's good.

[A]

But the point is it's still, you know, live communication. Right, Right. So that's why I'm not, I'm so not anti zoom. I'm very forward. I think it's kind of nice. I can't stand when people do zoom.

[B]

Have their camera and they don't have their camera on.

[A]

That's kind of suspicious. Why, you know, are you selling your pajamas look like. Right, that's why they have those automatic backgrounds.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[A]

But it's true though. Like it, it does change the more communication you actually have with people. It absolutely changes the relationship you have with them. Right. And that's the thing. People don't real. They don't realize what they're losing. What it costs you, you know, by, by not picking up that phone. By, by being as min.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And just, you know, despite the fact that you wouldn't have gotten a table at Pizza Rooster. But I mean, you know, the.

[B]

You got that pizza because. Or that place because your name.

[A]

For the record, it was the best pasta I have ever. And I am anti ordering pasta at Italian restaurants. I am. But this, it was incredible. And the pizza was incredible. And dude, I had deep fried cheesecake. Who even has. This isn't even a thing. But it's a thing at Pizza Rustica. Highly recommend this place. But I mean, you know, again, if, if you wouldn't have got that and picked up that phone, right. Called got that table, right.

[B]

You'd be.

[A]

I would have lost out. You know, if you don't pick up the phone and call customers. Right. Everything is slower. Every single thing. If you're scared, every job is a little slower. If you don't have. If it's not a simple ask, it's slower by avoiding them. And you know, five emails, you know, could be solved in like a two minute phone conversation. Right. So again, that takes forever. Right, Right. Not to mention miscommunication. Okay. And that's across the board.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Without that human connection, okay. You're never going to create a connection with, you know, that person. And I can't tell you how important that is. You know, when dealing with customers. Whether, whether it's. It's just, you know, a customer, whether it's. You're a business owner, whether you're in an agency and you got to pick up like it creates a whole different level of respect. Yeah. Okay. And that's honestly the. I don't think it's possible to, to, to get to that level of respect through Emails. And if it is, it must take forever.

[B]

It would take, yes.

[A]

But in one phone call, you can go from just being another designer to like, wow, this guy really knows what the fuck he's talking about. Right? Because again, all of a sudden it's like, you know, you need that, that vibe. Because then you could ask questions and you, they'll be like, wow, he really knows what he's talking about. He's got confidence. You know, you can lead the conversations. Right. No, I, I think nobody trusts a, a full time designer who's hiding through an email.

[B]

I don't. I agree with you on, on that 100%. Because if you're, if you're a, if you're a freelancer, then you can't be working. Like, I don't understand that you. There's got to be content.

[A]

Well, yeah, you can. Through Fiverr.

[B]

Come on.

[A]

Well, cuz Fiverr, they never pick up the phone. It's the, almost the whole transaction. And that's the vibe you get. Right. The whole transaction starts, finishes digitally and there's nothing else. So again. And that's why, I mean, no, I, I couldn't do that. I couldn't do that. And I mean, customers don't want that right now. At the same time, if you have too much of a good connection with

[B]

a customer, it gets a little weird. Yes, yes.

[A]

Remember we had, we, we had a customer. And I know you're gonna know who this is.

[B]

I do.

[A]

He loved, he loved.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

Just picking up the phone because he had a thought.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Random call. And, and you know, it was ridiculous. And the thing that would drive me nuts is he would freaking eat while talking. It's like, it seems like it was having lunchtime. And that's when he felt he had to call us. And he would be like, hey, Moss. So I had a thought.

[B]

It was just like, dude.

[A]

And it's, that's my, that's my kryptonite, man. It kills me.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. And, and he would just, just ramble. He would just want to talk out loud. His ideas.

[B]

His ideas, his shower thought was communicated to somebody else.

[A]

And the funny thing is though, as much as weird as that was, okay, there was probably 2, $300,000 worth of transactions that happened through these random talks.

[B]

No way.

[A]

Absolutely. Because we'd be like, what do you think? What should we do? And so then, so then again, we'd, we'd be like, okay, how about we do this? How about we.

[B]

That.

[A]

I like that. We should try that. How much is it going to cost what's involved. And you know, that, that was a freaking 12 year customer, okay? In the end, you know, we went different ways because his business and our business just they, we grew too far apart. You know, we. We jumped into tech and they were very industrial. But the reality is like, like hundreds of thousands adults over the 12 years. It was like a half a million dollar customer. But just those silly conversations that he would call and have would always generate business. If you could just get through that conversation, right?

[B]

But think if you, you were to do that over email.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

It wouldn't not work. It wouldn't work well.

[A]

And this is the biggest part that people don't understand, okay. By not picking up the phone, okay. If I wouldn't have taken those calls, right, and getting to that, that, that relationship with them, right. I would have missed all those opportunities. And not just, you know, the obvious ones, okay. But like bigger opportunities. They don't, they definitely don't come from email.

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay. And they don't come from replying to emails and, you know, replying to these conversations. They come from real legitimate. They come from fucking small talk. Okay? So I. Another great story. So RIM was a big customer. BlackBerry was a big customer for us, right? And I had a customer. We were pretty cool. He's a pretty cool guy, right? You know, he ended up going like crazy. And then he went up to San Francisco and now he's doing. He's killing it out there. But the cool thing is it was just like a Monday morning, right? And he needed to get me something on Friday, right? And I was comfortable with him, right? And I didn't get it Friday. It was Monday. And it was like, I need this to get this. Pick up the phone. I called him, right? I'm like, sam, what's going on, man? Like, oh, you know, his weekend good. I'm just recovering. Like, dude, I needed this because we gotta start. Oh, we just started talking. It's like, all right, all right, just. Just hang out here for a second. Let me look for it. Right? And so we're chatting on the phone. Yeah, okay. He's looking for it and he's complaining, right? While he's looking for it. And it's just small talk, okay?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But through this small talk, he's like, damn, dude. He's like, it should be right here, but our shitty internal system makes it impossible to find the team I need to find. And I was like, what do you mean, man? And he's. Then he starts explaining to me their shitty internal system and how the whole company is so big that they work in teams and it's almost like a network within the company of teams. And he was explaining why it was a broken system and why it slowed everybody down. And through this conversation I'm like, I have a fucking idea. I know how to fix this. Exactly. This was a massive problem internally, okay. And in two years we went from literally a one vendor Customer, we had 12 different teams that we worked with, okay. We built millions of dollars because we created a platform for them that was a layer in between this shitty ass layer that he was complaining that made all their departments easy to find. That wouldn't have happened if I was like, hey, Sam. Yeah, I'm just looking for that, you know, that file. Are you going to get it to me?

[B]

Send it to me?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I'll get it to you. You.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And he's in his mind, he's like, oh, I'll send it through this nightmare of shit, but he's not going to email that to me. That came through a conversation. And this is what people don't understand. If you're not willing to have these conversations to be candid, to get, to get to a different relationship with them, Right. You are missing massive opportunities because you can't diagnose other problems within the company. You know, if you're not having these kind of conversations.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So you know what, I got some basic rules here.

[B]

Oh, you know, nice.

[A]

You know, rules that I think people should follow. Yeah. Okay, let's. And, and, and they're not very complicated. Okay. Because this isn't a very complicated thing.

[B]

It's really not. It's a simple, simple process. Yes.

[A]

If the thread gets long.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Call.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Plain and simple. Right. If the feedback is unclear. Okay. Call. It's that easy. Right. If the stakes are high, if the timeline is tight. Okay. If there's many people involved, call.

[B]

Like Sam.

[A]

Exactly. Right. And in all fairness, if you genuinely want to grow, whether that's in your position in your career, you want to grow your business, your client base, you got to call. Yeah, okay, I'm sorry. And I know that people are apprehensive about picking up the phone and I know it seems like a scary thing. Okay. But they just have to start like now. Yeah. Because everything is getting fake. Emails are getting fake.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Emails are now being gener AI written. I have caught customers, okay, sending me AI generated emails. They're not even writing them themselves anymore. Okay. Because there was their email and at the bottom of it was a prompt. You Know if you want to sound more like this, maybe consider changing. They didn't even cut, like, edit it out. They did it. They just copied it, pasted it, sent it. So this is the world that we're living in. Okay? And what's going to happen, okay, is we are just going to blend in with the rest of the noise. And honestly, the way to get ahead of this, people are going to be yearning for a human connection. So people just have to pick up that phone and call, set up a meeting, call. Be like, hey, could I get five minutes? I just want to clarify something with you. And when you have them there, be like, hey, how's your day going? Yeah, how's the week going? Oh, I can't believe this.

[B]

Right?

[A]

It's. It's hard for some people, but the only way you're gonna get around it

[B]

is by calling is by actually doing this. And you know, the funny thing is, is maybe there's a stigma to, to clients and, and things like that, but they're just regular people. Like us.

[A]

Just like us.

[B]

I know. Like, and some of them are. As much as I complain about some of them, they are lovely people.

[A]

Of course they are. You know?

[B]

You know, like, you talk to them and you have a good time. Time, and they're just decent and they.

[A]

And I can guarantee you, right, like, every single person will get nicer the more.

[B]

The more you talk to them. Exactly.

[A]

And people don't realize that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, designers are constantly talking about not being taken seriously, not being a leader, not being viewed as an expert, yet they don't want to open up their mouths.

[B]

This is the one. This is the one way, like you, like you said to, to. To combat the AI and all the, all the robots.

[A]

You're right. Right?

[B]

Be more human.

[A]

That's absolutely right. Right. We're not going to win. No. We're not going to out design the future. Right. We're not going to be better designers than, than everybody. That's not how we're going to win at this game, okay? We're not. Honestly, who the people are going to win are the ones who are going to be able to communicate, okay. Who are going to be able to influence decisions, who are going to be able to lead. Okay? And that doesn't happen by responding to emails. It only happens through conversation.

[B]

Yeah. And it's the Land and Expand model, like, like you said with Rim, like, Gez, if you weren't on the phone with them, you would never have known.

[A]

And that's it. I could have sent that email, but I was like, no, I. Again, you know, there was a high something at stake. I had a high timeline. I'm like, I'm going to pick up the phone.

[B]

I got to get this.

[A]

Wait with him until he gets it. And what did I found that was the reason why that story comes to mind is because that was literally the monumental pivot for this company, and it just changed our whole direction.

[B]

One phone call.

[A]

One phone call. One.

[B]

One phone call.

[A]

And that's what you guys got to remember. All it takes is that one. And then that'll set you on such a different path. You know, drop us a line, let us know what you think. Hit us up. You know, I want to hear everybody's crazy stories about this. You know, don't forget to sign up for a newsletter. Anger management for designer. It's in our social. It's on our Instagram, it's on our website. It's. It's everywhere. It's. Do that.

[B]

It's great.

[A]

Great. All right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

My name is Massimo.

[B]

My name is Sean.

[A]

Stay creative. Stay angry. Pick up the phone and call someone you love. Peace,

[B]

Sa.