← The Angry Designer Graphic Design, Freelancing, Branding & Creative Business Podcast
The Angry Designer Graphic Design, Freelancing, Branding & Creative Business Podcast
Why MOST Graphic Designers Feel Burnt Out or Stuck and How-to Break Free with Matt Essam
01:11:52
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- [00:00]
Matt Smith
Over the last 10 years, I've coached literally hundreds, maybe thousands of creative business owners. And there are essentially three things that they all struggle with in some way which really hinders the business growth. The first one is their ability to differentiate themselves in a crowded market. The second thing is.
- [00:24]
Massimo
You'Re listening to the Angry Designer podcast, where we help frustrated graphic designers crush all the industry BS and learn what it takes to charge what you're worth and build badass, rewarding careers. What's up, Angry Designers? Let's be real about something. You know, the whole freelancing, the whole agency game, it's great. You know, we love it, but it's not necessarily or always what we're sold it to be by all those awesome people online. Right. You know, we're often promised all this creative freedom and all this money and, you know, picking our clients and having a great time, but often for the first few years anyway, it's a lot of work, a lot of hustle, a lot of grind, and that's just to make the ends meet. But let me throw something else out there for you. What if there's a way to flip this script? All right? And instead of doing all this hustling and grinding like we're used to, we actually kind of, you know, change the blueprint to success and kind of turn things upside down. Well, our next guest did just that. Not only did he do the freelancing gig, and then he ended up killing it that way, but then he also started, you know, getting more popular about, and everybody started taking notice, and now he's rolling with the crew over at the future, and he's. The guy's got a book out there, which is actually really good. And, I mean, he's coaching creatives and agencies like us to actually flip this script and kind of choose their own future and be able to direct their own path and kill it in the creative space. So I'd like to present our awesome guest, Mr. Matt Sm.
- [01:58]
Matt Smith
Guys, thank you.
- [01:59]
Massimo
I think we need, like, an applause. An applause, you know, track or something at this point.
- [02:04]
Matt Smith
You know, I think that's when the podcast goes downhill, though, when you start adding in, like, and stuff.
- [02:10]
Sean
Duly noted.
- [02:11]
Matt Smith
Thank you.
- [02:12]
Sean
Yes, that. That is a good point. Yes.
- [02:14]
Massimo
Jeez. So. So thank you for doing this. You know, oddly, like we were mentioning before, we. We connected, although I did. I have seen you online. We actually connected due to our producer, which is actually kind of cool, which I thought was kind of a neat way. Networking happens and everything, but, yeah, you've had. You've had a hell of a journey, haven't you?
- [02:31]
Matt Smith
You could say that. Yeah.
- [02:34]
Massimo
And. And the cool part is, I mean, you know, you're coming at us again. Let's. Let's talk about your travel situation. Right now, you are in the cool.
- [02:41]
Matt Smith
The cool world of Dubai, where all of the Instagram influences live.
- [02:46]
Massimo
Yeah. It's become kind of a big creator space, hasn't it? Has become a big. So have you if you bumped into anybody popular.
- [02:52]
Matt Smith
I actually, when I came out here last month to kind of test whether I wanted to move out here, I bumped into a woman called Marissa Pierre in a cafe who I've admired for a while. Creatives probably won't know her, but from the coaching and kind of psychology world, she invented something called rapid transformational therapy, which is really cool. She's. She's quite like. She's. She's in a maybe late 50s, early 60s, so she's very, like, well known in that space. And I just saw her in a cafe, and I was like, you, Marissa Pier? And being Dubai, she was super friendly. She invited me out for coffee. She said, oh, you should come round. Like, if you're just moving out here, you should definitely move to Dubai. And so, like, now we're best friends.
- [03:31]
Massimo
Wow. So did she rapidly give you therapy to kind of straighten yourself out? Like, after that coffee talk, you were changing.
- [03:37]
Matt Smith
What happened? I just said, I. I recognize you. And the next thing, I was just like, you know, laying in the middle of a field with stuff all around me. I don't know what was going on. But, no, she was actually. She was actually on Stephen Bartlett's Diary of CEO not that long ago. And she hypnotized him to get rid of his sugar cravings, or sugar addiction, as he called it at the time. So if anyone wants to check her out, it's pretty interesting stuff from a psychological point of view.
- [04:03]
Massimo
That'd be very cool, right? Well, you know what? Before we get too off track here, I want to give everybody a little bit of your history. Of course. Let's start from the beginning, buddy. Let's kind of giggle groundwork and just kind of work your way up, because there's so many things that we can talk about in this conversation. Conversation. And I plan to.
- [04:19]
Matt Smith
Let's rewind back to about 2015, and I'm sat on a ski slope in Canada, and I'm overlooking the Canadian mountains, this incredible view. It's a Tuesday afternoon, and I. I take a photo on my phone to post it to Instagram, which at the time was filled with your typical, you know, don't you wish you were me? Mondays are fine, you just hate your job kind of posts. And I paused for a second because I had this feeling where I was like, there's a misalignment here. There's something going on where I'm portraying something to the outside world. Like, I've got this amazing life. I'm traveling the world. I've got this little kind of boutique web agency I'm running. I'm working maybe like, three or four hours a day. But I feel really empty and really unfulfilled. And later on that afternoon, I got a message from my mom. And it just said, please call me as soon as you can. Which is never a great message to get from your mom when you're like, the other side of the world. And so a family friend had passed away really suddenly and unexpectedly, and he was only in his 40s. And so I kind of. I come back to the UK and I have one of those moments, and I remember seeing something similar in, like, a Steve Jobs commencement speech. You sort of look at yourself in the mirror and you're like, if I knew I was going to die in my 40s, would I be doing what I was doing today? Or even if I knew I had a year to live or a few years to live, would I be doing what I was doing right now? And the answer was a resounding no. And that was quite a surprise for me in a weird way, because I'm like, I've created this life. I've built this for myself, and I'm still not happy. So what's going on? And I realized that the work I was doing and the life that I had built, although it looked great from the outside, it wasn't really giving me the kind of fulfillment that I wanted, and I wasn't really having the impact that I wanted with the work that I was doing. And so I just went on a bit of a mission, a bit of an existential crisis. And I started watching different TED talks and YouTube videos and reading books. And I came across this idea of ikigai, which is like this Japanese word which basically means, like, your reason for being. Right? Why are you here? And it kind of has these circles and diagrams. I think it's quite a popular diagram now. But I realized that I was really kind of missing this feeling that what I did in my business actually mattered to anyone. It's like, if I stopped building these websites, someone else is just going to build the website, right? I thought you Know what actual impact is this website having for this person? Is it really like changing their business or did they just get. Did they just spend a bunch of money and just get a nicer looking website? And started kind of asking these questions. And very quickly I realized, having a little bit of coaching myself, that I was kind of in the wrong lane. And there was a specific moment that made me realize that because I had always been interested in personal development and always been interested in, like, psychology, I'd had my own challenges with stress and mental health. And when my coach at the time asked me that question, like, what would you do if you knew you couldn't fail? I was like, I think I'd be talking about mental health. I think I'd be like, coaching people. And so I trained to be a life coach. I took some courses and did some various qualifications. And one of the first people that I coached was this musician, Katie, and she was like a writer by day and she was a musician by night. And she had really had this massive block around her music. She really wanted to start writing music again. She wanted to start getting out there and gigging, but she just, every time she picked up a guitar, she had this kind of creative block. So I said, let me do a few sessions with you and I'll see if you can help. Within three sessions, she had written a full album and two of those songs had been chosen for Record of the week on BBC 6 Music In. In the UK. And I just remember having this moment of like, oh, my God, I just had more impact in three hours with this person than I've probably had in the last three years in my business. And so it just was like this wakeup call, right, of like, I think. I think I'm in the wrong lane. I think I'm not doing the thing that I'm really put on Planet Earth to do. And something needs to change, yeah, is.
- [08:46]
Massimo
Having these conversations, having these coaching sessions with creatives. Do you feel that that's any different than then coaching, say, somebody who has a flower shop or somebody who is a consultant or anything like that?
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Matt Smith
Yeah, well, creatives are my people, right. So, like a lot of creatives, I was never very good at school. Like, you guys know, like, James Martin, he's a great example. Chatting to James a couple of weeks ago and he's like, dyslexic. And school was a real challenge. And, you know, for me, school was a challenge. The only subject that I was really good at was media studies and I got to play around with the camera And I got to edit things. And so I feel like I come from a creative background. And when I started to get into life and business coaching, one of the things that we were encouraged to do was to pick a niche. And it was like, who are you already surrounded with? What industry do you already have experience in? And I was like, I could literally pick up the phone to 20 freelancers or like creative agency owners right now, so why don't I see if any of them are stuck with anything? And that was kind of the journey into niching down into kind of working with creatives.
- [09:57]
Massimo
Yeah. Interesting, interesting. So I guess that was the fulfillment at that point that you were looking for or you realized because you connected, you can now.
- [10:06]
Matt Smith
Yeah, it's like I think I had seen from my own perspective of just reading books and like going to seminars and having some coaching myself, how much impact it could have. And I was pretty obsessed with people like Tony Robbins and you know, like rich lip vins of the world. I was like, that's, you know, it's really changing people's lives. It's really actually like having an impact. And then when I looked at the creative world that I was in, I was always surrounded by people who were way better than me at creatives. Like, I was always very average at everything. Like, I'm quite an average photographer. I'm a very average designer. Like, I was never really that good at web development. I just did it because at the time it could make money. But then as soon as I got in a room with someone and started coaching them, all of a sudden I just, just felt like there was this thing that I was doing that felt really easy. But it was clearly having a impact on people's lives. And it was really the first time I felt like that was really the first time I felt, this is easy, this is fun, and it's actually creating an impact for people.
- [11:12]
Massimo
Right. What is the difference between a coach and a mentor?
- [11:16]
Matt Smith
So if you imagine a scale, on the right hand side is a teacher, and on the left hand side, the bottom of the scale is a counselor. And so it's kind of where like advice and coaching sits on the, on the top end, the right hand side, everything is very directive. Like, here's a subject that I'm an expert in. I'm going to teach you about it. If you go kind of like a step down from that, then you've got mentorship, which is basically like a mixture of I've done a thing. So, like, if I was going to mentor agency owners, I Might say, I built this agency, I sold it for X amount of money. I'm going to teach you how to do the same. And there's an element of like coaching in that like a good mentor will be a little bit directive, but they will also ask the right questions. And you keep going down that scale. And it goes then like coaching, where the premise of coaching really is that the person you're coaching has all of the answers. They just need somebody to help them unlock the answers and they need somebody to help them to get insight or make better decisions. And you keep going down and then it's like counseling, which is basically going into a room and talking to somebody about how you feel sort of day to day.
- [12:27]
Massimo
Interesting, Right, right, right. So I've always had this love hate relationship with coaches, you know, especially business coaches. You know, I tend to love to hate them because oftentimes it's, they, they had a blanket solution that they would just apply to everybody equally. And I think that was my early frustrations as, as an agency owner early on I, while creative came naturally, the business side didn't. And so all the business coaches I kept on, you know, reaching out to for help and, and starting down the road applied the same, the high level, flat technique over and it just, it drove me nuts and I kind of started getting down to this, this, this scenario that obviously these guys don't know what they're talking about. If you can't do it, you become a business coach. And that's, that's mean, of course, but I'm sure a lot of people meet these, you know, coaches in their networking sessions and such. What are things that people should look for, Designers in particular, you know, to, to look for in a coach that, that can kind of gauge, you know, if this is a good fit or if this person's just full of shit.
- [13:34]
Matt Smith
There's two ways I've always approached it. So just to give some context, I've invested more than £100,000 in coaching, mentorship courses, all of that kind of stuff, right. So I've had some scary moments where I've been like, oh shit, that's, I've committed more money than I even have to this person, but I need to make it work. And so there's kind of two ways that I always look at it now when I'm choosing who to work with, I'm either looking for somebody who's like, been there and done that at a very high level that's like, not so far in front of me that can't relate to what I'm doing anymore. But that isn't like exactly on my level. So that's more in the kind of like mentorship realm. And I'm looking for like real world evidence, right. So for example, Daniel Priestley has been a mentor to me. Daniel started his first company probably when he was about 17 or 18, like running nightclubs. He had one of the fastest growing startups in Australia. He brought a business to the uk, scaled it to multiple seven figures and like you can go and research all this stuff. Like it's quite easy to find this information. So I'm looking for somebody who's like just amazing at doing the things that I want to learn how to do more of. On the other hand, when I'm looking more for coaching, where it's like I'm not looking for somebody to tell me how to run my business, like I kind of know what to do, but I'm really struggling around making the right decisions or making the right hires or shifting through some kind of block that I don't quite know how to articulate. Then I'm looking for experience, but not experience in the sense of like how long have they been a coach and who have they coached, but the experience of being coached by that person. So I want to like get a sense of, can they give me those insights? Can they make me think in a way that I haven't thought before? Can they give me that kind of like epiphany moment? Can they, can they help me create breakthroughs in my life? And I think most good coaches, unless you're kind of getting to like Tony Robbins level, most people will give you a little bit of their time for free or you can kind of get a sense of their coaching style from their content or probably listening to like a coaching session as like a fly.
- [15:49]
Massimo
On the wall, right? Do you think that, you know, for personality fit a mentor versus a coach, one might be better than the other for people like, will they ultimately get to the same result or still very different for, you know, your needs.
- [16:07]
Matt Smith
I think personality is really important, right? Because I've heard people be given the exact strategy they need to grow their business, but because it comes from somebody that they don't really like or they don't really like their style, it just doesn't work for them. And then I come in and I tell them the exact thing. And sometimes they say, I've heard that before. I'm like, okay, cool. Well what's like prevented you from doing it or implementing it and then you kind of Dig into some of the beliefs or how they feel about it, and then you can create that breakthrough. You can help them to implement something which isn't really that complicated, but they just had these other blockers around it. And I think certain people can do that really well and other people can't do that well. And I think it really depends on how you click with that person that you're actually coaching.
- [16:53]
Massimo
Yeah, that's really important. So you've, you've had your own epiphany now, so we're going to back it up again. You know, you realize the impact that you made in this one creative's life. At what point did you decide, hey, I'm now going to do this at scale, I'm going to reach out and because you kind of had a little bit of a hockey stick growth, considering this is all happening within nine years. And we did have some Covid years in between too.
- [17:19]
Matt Smith
Covid was a blessing for my business. It was. I had zero online presence before COVID Yeah, right. Like, I literally, I had a website maybe, but just to give you an idea, before COVID I was running workshops as like my main lead generation tool. And so I used to go into like co working spaces and other places that contained a lot of creative freelancers and small business owners. And I run these free workshops. And at the end of the workshop, I would say, hey, guys, we run this course, we run this program. I did two courses a year. They were six months back to back. And I would just run workshops up and down the country from London to Sheffield, Leeds, Manchester, like, and it was hectic. Like at one point, I remember in a month, I think I went to London like three times in a week. Then I was running this workshop in Leeds. Then I was like giving a talk somewhere and I was just running around like a headless chicken. And the business was doing okay, but for the amount of work that I was putting in, I was not getting the return. And then Covid happened. Everyone was like, oh my God, what are we going to do? All of a sudden people were open to jumping on webinars, which before it seemed like there was a lot of resistance to put on one or two webinars. That was like, what to do in Covid, if you're a freelancer or a small business owner had literally like hundreds of people jumping on those webinars. Like, people couldn't get into the zoom rooms. And before I knew it, I literally had more clients than I can handle. And also, like you mentioned about the future, Chris's hand in. That came at a very timely point. So we got some momentum from COVID And then I sent a book to his producer, Mark Contouris, at the time. And Mark just randomly sent me a message on Instagram one day and said, I just sent your book to Chris. He loves it. He wants to invite you on the podcast. And that was like, yeah, that was just, like, off the back of that snowballing. So we were already getting quite a lot of traction from that.
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Massimo
Wow, that's incredible. And then. And then now, then you ended up becoming part of his. Was it the professional group, the mentorship group and such?
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Matt Smith
Yeah, yeah. So, like, it's probably been about four years now. I think three and a half. Four years. And me and Chris just. Just connected, like, yeah, I don't know why. I think we've got a similar mission. And I just said to him, look, I. I just love coaching, and I really want to get more experience coaching big groups. And you've got this pro group. What about if I just came in and coached and took some program sessions? He was like, sure, I'll give you a trial and see how it goes. And I'd kind of been used to running these big webinars anyway, and I was like, I want to do more scalable things. And so I just went in there and said, look, let me just run a few sessions, see if people vibe with it. And it just so happened that people did. And Chris was like, yeah, it's awesome. Like, if people keep getting value and keep showing up, you can keep coming in and coaching them. And then we started taking clips from some of those sessions and putting them on the YouTube channel. And then that kind of started blowing up a bit, and I guess that kind of flywheel thing happens together. And then I just said, hey, can we create an agreement around this? Like, how about I come in once a month to coach the pro group, and in return, you'll put one of my videos onto the future platform? And he was like, yeah, I'm cool with that. Like, if the content's good, we'll put it out. And so that's kind of like how that. How that came about.
- [20:37]
Massimo
So would you say that was the biggest lesson? Sounds like that was actually a really good strategic move on your part, of course, for exposure. Would that be in part, one of the big takeaways from working with that group?
- [20:49]
Matt Smith
Yeah, I think so. I'm actually about to run an event for my clients in two weeks called the Partnership Playbook, and I learned this from Daniel Priestley. Daniel Priestley is like the master of partnerships. And he taught me that somebody somewhere woke up today with exactly what you need. If you need a bigger audience, someone's got that. If you need more money, someone's got that. If you need more confidence, someone's got that. Right. The skill as an entrepreneur is figuring out how to make what you've got valuable to them. And so that's really what a partnership is about. And so I think partnerships are one of the most underrated ways to grow any kind of business, but specifically a creative business, because I think creatives underestimate all of the soft skills that they have and all of the work that goes on behind the scenes when they're building someone's brand or doing a video or whatever, and how valuable they can be to people outside of the creative space that serve a similar audience to them. So the partnership model is one of the most powerful ways to grow your business. And I've used that model right from the start, right from day one. Like I said to you before, I was going into co working spaces, so I would go to WeWorks, I'd go into all the local co working spaces and say, hey, I know you've got a community of creatives here and you want to keep them in your co working space. And so one of the things I know you do is you try and put on these events and do all this different stuff to make this a great place to come. What about if I came in and I ran a workshop for free and I talked about like the three ways that I know consistently work to generate high value clients, like, would that be valuable to your members? And yeah, most people were like, absolutely. So I just went and found people that already had the attention, the attention and the relationship with my ideal clients. And I just went and delivered value to them and that allowed me to be introduced to their audience.
- [22:46]
Massimo
So let's, let's put this in perspective for freelancers and for agencies. What are ways then of freelancers or small agencies, examples of how they can embrace this partnership model. I love this concept, but I even struggle other than networking events, which sometimes I cringe at. What are some good tactical ways that they can take advantage of this idea? It's brilliant.
- [23:11]
Matt Smith
So the first thing you understand is there's, there's three core types of partnership and you'll see like big brands doing this all the time, right? So you've got a distribution partnership, which is really where you just take somebody's product and distribute it. So you might want to try and get your product into, say, a Walmart, for example, in the States, right? Because, you know, if you get into Walmart, like, they're going to distribute your product and, like, that's going to give you the reach. So that's like type one. Type two is what's called, like, a brand partnership, where you're really just kind of associated to a particular brand. So you might take somebody like Michael Jordan as an example, and you think he's associated to Nike, right? Or at least he used to be. I'm sure there are much more modern examples, but you might say, like, George Clooney and like Nespresso. Like Nespresso have leveraged George. George Clooney's brand. Right? So it's like a brand partnership. And then you've got what I call, like a delivery partnership, which is, um, kind of where you're baked into that person's process. So, for example, Bose might be baked into a Porsche's product. Like, all Porsches now come with, like, Bose speakers in the car kind of thing, right? So it's baked into the delivery. So let's kind of break those three things down as different options for creatives. So a really common one that some of my clients use a lot is a delivery partnership where you approach, say, like a development. A web development agency, and you say, hey, guys, I noticed that you do a lot of web development, but you don't do as much design, right? You're building all these great websites for people, but you don't have a dedicated design team in house. What about if we partner with you on the delivery to do the design and we can offer, like, an overall solution that is way more comprehensive that we could charge more money for. So that would be an example of like, a delivery partnership, right? A brand partnership. You might say, well, I want to be associated with AJ and Smart because, like, AJ and Smart are like the design Sprint guys, and that's what they're known for. And if I can get some kind of association with them, then it's really going to help my reputation. So you might approach AJ and Smart and say, hey, guys, I know you run these amazing workshops. We're an animation studio. How about we animate some of your assets and you call us, like your official animation partner. We do the work for free. But you put something on your website or you put something on your material that says that, like, these were created by you, and when you put them on your social feeds or whatever, you tag us in it and you say, like, this is our animation partner. Or whatever. So you're just associating your brand with them and then the final one is like a distribution. So like if you want to get in front of more of your ideal clients, let's say you work with SaaS businesses, right? You might go to one of these like tech incubators and you might say, hey guys, I know you have a bunch of SaaS businesses and I know they're all launching new products and whatever and most of them have no idea about branding. So I'd love to come in to your incubator and run a brand Sprint workshop for free and like show people how to make their branding be great for attracting the right investors.
- [26:16]
Massimo
For example 1 and 3. I think that we tried over the years and they work very well. I guess I just never really thought about putting them into, into perspective like this. So good on you for that. Are there other commonalities or common struggles that you see that you've been now that you've been working with so many creatives on an ongoing basis?
- [26:35]
Matt Smith
And now a word from our sponsor.
- [26:39]
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- [28:16]
Matt Smith
Over the last 10 years, I've coached literally hundreds, maybe thousands of creative business owners. And there are essentially three things that they all struggle with in some way which really hinders the business growth. The first one is their ability to differentiate themselves in a crowded market. Right. So it's like, how do I stand out from another animation studio or another design studio or branding agency, how do I look different from my competition? So I'm not always being compared on price or quality. So that's the first thing. The second thing is they really struggle to articulate the value of what they really do beyond the deliverables. So beyond we make nice looking logos, we make amazing videos, how do I really articulate all the work that goes in behind the scenes and all the things that I actually do for my client? And then the third thing is they really struggle to deliver their services in a scalable way, in a way that doesn't keep them sucked into the day to day of their business. And so there's kind of two or three things in each one of those areas that are kind of common mistakes and things that help with those three bottlenecks, essentially.
- [29:27]
Massimo
Right. Brilliant. Brilliant. And yes to all three of that I can see and agree and have experienced that myself doing this. I mean, there's a lot of aha moments. So even in this conversation I've been like, ah, good point, good point. How does this affect you personally? Like how has this process of you coaching creatives and helping, helping someone achieve more in three hours than they have in a year, you know, of their experience?
- [29:52]
Matt Smith
Yeah, I mean, I think, I don't remember where I learned this, but I have the belief that you can't take people deeper than you've been yourself. And so one of the reasons I've invested hundreds of thousands of pounds into coaching is because I want to be able to take people where they need to go to create that breakthrough. So the first part is just actually being coached. There's like coaching other people, which has been really good for my personal development around listening. Because before you become a coach, you think you listen to people. When you become a coach, you realize you don't listen to anybody. And most of the time you're just like thinking about the next thing to say or the next question to ask, actually listening and actually just hearing exactly what people are saying and learning to listen between the things that people have said has had a profound impact on my personal life and my ability to build relationships. So that's definitely a huge thing. But actually the process of learning how to coach is really about going on a journey for yourself. I don't think there are many coaches that I know that haven't been on some kind of personal, transformational journey that has profoundly impacted their life. And the tools that I gain through being coached and going on that journey, I then pass on to my clients. And it's kind of those lessons that I feel are the most valuable. So it's kind of the other way around. It's like, I do learn a lot of stuff by coaching people, but really the most valuable lessons that I've learned have been from being coached.
- [31:31]
Massimo
Do you. So interesting. So do you find that you are learning continuously moving forward, then through the people that are coaching you or through breakthroughs that you're having with creatives from.
- [31:46]
Matt Smith
The people that are coaching me? Like, once you've coached enough people and the same kind of people, you see the same patterns over and over again. Like, I now get to the point where I don't really have many sales calls because I can just type something. Like, I can. I've got very good at marketing because I just take what I'm learning in coaching sessions and regurgitate that into marketing material and, like, messaging. So I can kind of get to the point where I can say things in my content that get people coming to me being like, oh, my God, like, I need to talk to you. That was amazing. I felt like you were in my head. It's like, yeah, because I've had a hundred of those conversations, and everyone's struggling with the same thing.
- [32:23]
Massimo
Yes. So you're constantly evolving then through what you're ingesting, not through what you're experiencing, which are inputting, not outputting.
- [32:31]
Matt Smith
Yeah. And I also think that there becomes a point. I'm not sure if you guys have experienced this, because obviously you read a lot, you watch a lot, you talk to a lot of people. But there comes to a point where it's not actually about more information or learning more things. It's really about the kind of person that you are becoming and who you need to become to reach that next level. Whether it's in money or relationships or health and fitness or whatever. It's like, we know what we need to do. Right. If you want to get in shape, you need to eat healthy food and go to the gym. It's not rocket science. Like, if you want to grow a business, you need to go out there and need to find clients that pay you for what you do, and you need to charge good amounts of money, and you need to find other people to help you do it. Like, it's not really rocket science. It's all of the stuff that comes up in between that, it's all the stuff that comes up in between your ears that actually prevents you from getting the results that you want.
- [33:25]
Massimo
Yeah, good point. Very good point. Now, in situations, of course, maybe this is a good segue to your book. I mean, I'm sure, although everybody would love to have your time and pay for your time and be in a room with you sometimes. It might not be possible or they might still be early on in their career. However, everybody can afford this kick ass book. Okay. Create and prosper again. There were so many parts when reading this, I was just like, I agree. I was talking to the book, I was just like, so it's fun. I think this is good on you for sending this to me early on because again, I've seen you online, but I listen to a lot of people. This put it real. Okay? This changed it, this, this elevator to a whole new level. What was the spark that allowed you to, that made you want to first, you know, create this book again?
- [34:16]
Matt Smith
I'll go credit Daniel Priestley for this. He's got a famous quote which is the book that changes your life isn't the one that you read, it's the one that you wr. Right?
- [34:27]
Sean
Yeah. There you go.
- [34:29]
Massimo
Yeah. Okay, so that's good. So at that point you just, you're like, you know what? I am going, this was a personal mission. Is that what this was?
- [34:37]
Matt Smith
Yeah, I just, I just got to the point where I was like, I know I need to write a book, so what am I going to write a book about? Well, I might as well write a book about the stuff that I'm doing one to one with my clients. Because a, like you said, for the people that can't afford coaching or for whatever reason can't get in a room together with me, it's like, how do I impact more people? And most of the time, like I've got a link, I think on my LinkedIn profile and I'm happy to share it here with you guys. The PDF version of this book, which is on Kindle, for sale on Amazon. But like there's just a link there which I'll just give away for free because I want people to be able to access this information at scale. And even if I went Tony Robbins and got 10,000 people in a room, you still can't create the kind of scale in person that you can with assets like a book.
- [35:27]
Massimo
Absolutely. No, you're absolutely right. Okay, so for obviously for those who haven't read it, what is that one takeaway or the one big message that you hope people would take from reading this book and from reading it several times over, which I really like that part.
- [35:44]
Matt Smith
I think the big message is if you really want to do work that has an impact, if you really want to do work that lights you up, that pays the bills, that gives you freedom to actually create in a way that you want to create and gives you the fulfillment where you wake up feeling like every day you're doing something that is meaningful. If you want to do that, then you need to understand that you have to master the business of creativity. Like, the game changes when you go from mastering the art of creativity, which is being good at your skill set, to mastering the business of creativity. That's the thing that opens those doors. That's the thing that really is going to allow you to kind of have the impact that you want to have, charge the money that you want to charge, and actually build a business that you can be proud of that leaves a legacy and a bit of a dent in the world.
- [36:39]
Massimo
Yeah. So you are a very, you know, reserved, well put together person. Right. I mean, I think the comment from Chris Doe is that you are the, the Christo on that side of the world, which is kind of, kind of funny. And I get where he comes from.
- [36:53]
Matt Smith
He says, yeah, Jesus, can you have a better compliment than that? I think he said, like, you're the UK version of Chris does. Like, I think, like, all I need to do is just put that on my LinkedIn banner and like, I'm good for the next 10 years.
- [37:08]
Sean
Yes.
- [37:09]
Massimo
So, so, so I, I, I like what you're saying, but reading your book, it takes a very no BS approach. Like, you're, you're not, you're not shying away from things. You're kind of saying things in, in maybe like a harsh way. Like, you know, I love the illusion of security. I mean, brilliant, right? That was such a great term. And I was like, well, what does that mean? Right. And you're reading into it. You know, finding your dream client isn't easy. Yeah. You know, reality, the values versus reality. So, you know, was this intentional, like, or was this just like how you were feeling? The angle you approached? Like, is this a hard truth that creatives need to, need to just, you need to be blunt to reach creatives.
- [37:49]
Matt Smith
Yeah. I think if you ask anybody that I've coached, I am quite a direct coach. And one of the things that I got taught early on by someone who was coaching me how to coach is you're not there to be friends with your Clients, right? You're there to coach them, and sometimes they need to hear some stuff, some hard truths that nobody else has had the courage to tell them because they've been so good at their craft that everybody, you know, worships the ground that they walk on. So I give you an example of, like, some of the people I coach. So a few months ago, one of my clients was a guy who was the VP of Product for Disney for 20 years. Really high up at Disney, right? And he left that job and started his own branding studio. So this is a guy that, you know, is used to having a lot of respect from his peers. And so I've got to be direct and I've got to cut through the bullshit and I've got to call him out on stuff because he's not used to people doing that, right? He's used to people seeing his work, seeing, like, the level he's at and everyone being like, oh, my God, you're amazing. So he never really gets challenged on the things that he needs to be challenged on. Another example quickly is, like, Eric, who is ex Spotify and recently rebranded Elvis Presley and Whitney Houston for Sony Music. And he's on his Instagram the other day. He's up, like, giving these massive talks about the brand and how it fit together and how he approached the brief. And he will have literally hundreds of people being like, you're amazing, man. Like, this work you're doing is incredible. So I've got to come to him and I've just got to be, like, level, you know, Like, I'd be straight talking and be like, okay, cool. Well, what about this? Or what about that? And I really believe that the faster you can be in alignment with reality, the faster your business will grow.
- [39:35]
Massimo
Is this something that creatives struggle with? Hearing hard truths versus dancing around it and trying to be, you know, a little bit more apologetic about it?
- [39:43]
Matt Smith
No one wants to hear the hard truths, right? But I think most people respect it. In the end. The only time my coaching has ever backfired or the only time I've ever felt unhappy with my coaching is when I've danced around the truth. And, like, I get to the end of a session with someone, I'm like, that didn't quite feel right. Why not? Because I didn't really say the thing that I was thinking, or I didn't really ask the question I was asking, or this person somehow had a way with words that where they made me start questioning my own, like, angle or approach or whatever, or I didn't change My approach enough to get to the root of the problem. It's always, always, always better to be too direct with someone and them get a little bit upset than it is to not be direct in a coaching relationship. Because I believe that as a coach, you are there to challenge somebody, to challenge their way of thinking, because if their current way of thinking was correct, they'd be getting the results that they want. They come to me because they're not getting the results they want or they want to get to the next level. So by default, they have to change their way of thinking.
- [40:51]
Massimo
Right. Is there value for creatives to embrace this, Embrace this way of thinking, talking, acting with their clients?
- [41:01]
Matt Smith
100%. So there's a method of sales called the challenger method, and which is really about this idea of, like, challenging clients. But, yeah, honestly, when you start getting up to big bucks, in my experience, the reason that most creatives get paid disproportionately to the skill set they have is because they are willing to challenge their clients in a way that nobody else is challenging them.
- [41:30]
Massimo
Interesting. Where is the line? And, you know, how close can creatives get to it without crossing it?
- [41:37]
Matt Smith
There is no line. There is only intention. And this is what most people get wrong. Right. So most people come at the conversation with the wrong intention. So their intention is to be right, or their intention is to prove a point, or their intention is to fill in the blank. Right. So that's how these conflicts are created. If your intention is simply to help that person to solve the problem you're there to solve and to get the end result that they want, then you genuinely can't go wrong. And I've got this saying that, like, if you. If you come from the right place, I genuinely believe that you can't say the wrong thing to the right person.
- [42:17]
Massimo
Yeah, that makes sense. That's really true. So how does this play in A big part of your book talks about personal values. So how does this, being intentional, being bold, unapologetic, work with people's personal values?
- [42:32]
Matt Smith
There's something to be said for people that don't identify as somebody who is, like, challenging or controversial. Right. And I think a lot of creatives struggle with this because they kind of identify as maybe, like, introverts or people pleasers. And so when they hear like, oh, challenge the client and do this and do that, they're like, that's not really me, but I think you've got to find your own way of doing it. So, like, if your personal values are kind and caring and empathetic, and all of these things. Like, you can still challenge people, but you're going to challenge them in a kind and caring and empathetic way. So, for example, rather than saying, like, oh, like, I don't agree with this brief at all, if we did X, Y and Z, then I think this would be way better. You might say something like, I'm just curious. Can you just share some of your thoughts with me around how you've got to this brief? And like, you know, how did you. How did you come up with it? What was the process behind it? Right. And you're being very kind of curious. You're being very empathetic. You're being very, like, caring and kind. You're coming at it from that. That perspective, but you're still challenging people.
- [43:37]
Massimo
Right? Right. So do you feel then that people's values can be flexible? Like, do you feel that they can kind of waver a little bit? Or is this, you know, are these values meant to be concrete? You know, and there's a line and just don't ever cross that line?
- [43:54]
Matt Smith
Well, I think it's important that we define values. And this is kind of a definition from psychology, but also from, like, my own personal experience. So when we say, like, what does somebody value? They might say, well, I value money or time or honesty or family or whatever. And if you keep digging down into those things and ask, why. Why is that important to you? What is it about family that's important to you? And then they start saying things like, well, you know, I just. I want to feel connected, or like, money gives me security or whatever. Like, when you get down to it, values are really about emotions. So I don't think people's values are flexible. I think people's values are pretty set until there is, like, a major life experience. And that's kind of what happened to me when I was on that ski slope and I was kind of questioning, why am I unhappy? And then a family friend passed away suddenly and unexpectedly. Then all of a sudden I was like, oh, are these my values? Are my values like freedom and financial fun and adventure and all of this stuff? Travel. Right. Are they my values? Or are my values like impact and growth? And so then I started kind of questioning things. So I think that's really the only time when people's values change.
- [45:11]
Massimo
Cool. Okay, let me throw a twist here. What is the opposite of values? And if people were to embrace the opposite, what does that outcome look like?
- [45:21]
Matt Smith
So the opposite of values is something I call vehicles. So the vehicle is the thing that you think is going to get you the value. So money is a really good example of a vehicle, right? People say, I want more money. And what they don't really, what they want is they want to feel a sense of security or they want to feel a sense of freedom or whatever it is. So the opposite of a value is just a vehicle.
- [45:44]
Massimo
And focusing on just that. What does that outcome look like?
- [45:47]
Matt Smith
I think it looks like a never ending wheel of torture. Like it literally is, right? It's like, I want, I want more money. Okay, great. And then someone goes and like earns an extra £100,000 and I'll be happy when, when I'm earning like £100,000 a year, I'll be super happy. They get to that point and they're like, oh, like 100,000 is great, but wouldn't 200,000 be nice? Or like relationships is a classic one. Like, oh, when I just find the right person and then like they get that person and they're like, oh, I'm still not really happy. Like, what about this person over here? And it's just like never ending. You're not looking for the right person. You're not looking for more money, you're not looking for better clients. You're looking for a feeling of, for a relationship. It might be significance, it might be security for money. Often it's security. Like creatives say to me, like, if I just know that the bills are paid at the end of every month, or if I just know I've got that financial buffer, things are good, right? But it's not really about that. It's about the feeling of security. And I can tell you, I've coached enough people that have got serious amounts of money in the bank and they still worry every single week, every single month about money.
- [46:55]
Massimo
Crazy. So is that because they're just, they're just not getting that fulfillment? Like their priorities are just in the wrong place.
- [47:03]
Matt Smith
It's because they haven't differentiated between the idea of the value and the vehicle, right? So they think they need a certain amount of money, but then when they get that money, they don't have the feeling. And then they, then they have that old shit moment that I think we've all had at some point where we get the thing that we want and we're happy for like three, six, maybe 12 months if we're really lucky. And then we just get used to having that thing and then the feeling just comes back and we're like, oh, maybe I need to buy a new car again. Maybe I need to get a bigger house, maybe I need to get a wife with bigger boobs. Like, you know, what's the, what's the thing, right? And it's like, it's not that, it's not the vehicle, it's like you have to understand what is the emotion that you're trying to achieve and how do you get that today? Like, if you want more security, like how do you create more security in your life? What do you maybe even just need to appreciate about the security you already have in your life? Like, do you need to sit down and focus every day on the fact that you know that the bills are paid for the next six months? Or do you need to just sit down and focus on the fact that you live in a country where like, realistically you're not going to be homeless, like the government are going to support you, or you've got friends and you've got family that will let you crash on your couch. Like, whatever it is, do you need to just sit and actually focus on all of the security that you've already got in your life and operate from that place of a filled up cup? Like this idea of abundance versus scarce scarcity. What that really means is that you're already filled up with that emotion. You already feel secure. So when you're going out into the world and making decisions, you're coming from a place of secure security, not a place of fear.
- [48:32]
Massimo
That's brilliant. Unfortunately, you got to this aha moment. I mean, it wasn't quite as finessed, but you got to it through a traumatic event. You found out, you know, on a ski slope, just, just at the right time, something unfortunate happened. How? What are steps that people can take to start trying to find out, to find their own value? Because I do agree with you, I think people are stuck focusing on the vehicles, not on the value, the impact.
- [49:01]
Matt Smith
Yeah. The one question that helps most people is if you knew you had a year to live and money was no object, no one was judging you, what would you do? And just like brainstorming on that, like, oh, I'd, I'd spend time in my family, I travel the world, I would, you know, donate to all these causes or whatever. Okay, cool. Why would you do that? Why is that important to you? What is it really giving you? And you just keep digging down why, why, why, why, why? And eventually you will get to an emotion, you'll get to a feeling. What is the feeling that you're trying to achieve by doing this thing? And that is, that is the Value. That's the thing that you want more of in your life, Right.
- [49:42]
Massimo
And how do we achieve that within our business?
- [49:45]
Matt Smith
So there's lots of ways. And that's the beauty of it, right? Is that once you identify the value. So let's just take freedom as an example, right? I want. I want more freedom in my business. I feel like I'm chained to my business, and my business is not serving me right now. Okay, well, like, what does freedom look like to you? What are all of the ways that you feel freedom? And I got this idea from Tony Robbins. He says most people have a dirt road to happiness and a highway to depression. Wow. They've carved out rules for themselves. And by the way, myself included, right? This is stuff that I still have to work on on a daily basis. We've carved out rules for ourselves that make it so easy for us to feel bad. Like, we don't win the client, we don't win the proposal. A staff member's sick or whatever. It's like any of these things could happen, and immediately we feel shit about our day. Well, what do we need to feel happy? Well, first of all, we need this. Then we need this. Then we need this, then we need this. And my coffee needs to be the right temperature, and it needs to be that and blah, blah, blah. And if all these things don't happen in order, then I've had a shit day. Right. But we're the ones deciding that, like, we're picking this criteria. So if we have a value of freedom, I want to feel freedom. Okay. Don't you run your own business? Yeah. Okay. Don't you get to pick and choose the clients that you want? Yeah. Okay. Don't you get to choose where you work? Don't we live in a world where you can literally work from anywhere where you could have a fully remote team if you wanted to? Yeah, I guess so.
- [51:06]
Sean
Right.
- [51:06]
Matt Smith
And it's just like reminding people of the freedom that they already have and then asking them, okay, how could you get more of that today? Like, what are all of the ways that you could think of that would give you more freedom in your life? And people say to me things like, well, if I could just take an afternoon off every week to spend with my kids, that would just be. That would be life changing for me. Great. You get to decide that you run your own business. So starting from next week, that's what you're doing. Draw a line. Oh, but what happens if my client does this? And what happens? Well, those things aren't happening. Right now, they're all in your head. So do the thing first, then see what happens, then we'll deal with those problems.
- [51:41]
Massimo
Yeah, love that, love that. Ah, damn. So then. So what's holding people back? Fear.
- [51:50]
Sean
Yeah.
- [51:50]
Matt Smith
Like I said before, when I said about the strategy is quite simple. It's all the stuff between. Between the years. Like, I'll give you a really tangible example. Some people I coach, they say to me, how do I get new clients? I say, right, here are three ways which out of these three feel most relevant to you and most easy for you to implement. And they were like, number two, okay, great, here are the steps. And I'll talk to them two weeks later. And they've done all the steps and they've signed two new clients. I'm like, wow, you're awesome. To coach. Then other people, I'll do the exact same process and I'll. And they'll say, no. Like, number two, I'll say, here are all the steps. And then I'll just get endless messages. But when I do this, what happens if a client says this? And I'm like, has a client said that? And they're like, no, but what about if they do? Okay, should we cross that bridge when we come to it? Maybe.
- [52:34]
Massimo
Yeah, right, right.
- [52:36]
Matt Smith
We want, as humans, like, our brains are not made to make us happy. Like, that's not why they were designed. God didn't go, I'm gonna put this brain in this human and I just wanna make him the happiest human alive. Our brains have evolved to keep us safe. Like, their primary job is to keep us alive. And so it's just constantly looking for danger. And so some people's brains, in fact most people's brains are, like, overly attuned to that danger. The problem is we don't live, like, in the Serengeti, and we're not about to get eaten by a lion right now, but our brains are acting as if we are. So it's on high alert. So I'm like, hey, go. Like, approach this client. But my brain goes, what about if they say no? Or worse, what about if they think I'm being really salesy and spammy? And then they go to their network and they say, don't ever work with Matt again. He's the most spammy person ever in the world. He sent me this DM on LinkedIn in, look at it. It's disgusting. Don't ever work with him. And then our brain goes, oh, my God, our whole business is going to collapse. And, you know, it's just constantly, like, future projecting about all of the things that can go wrong.
- [53:38]
Massimo
She's stuck in a what if cycle. And just constantly, what if, what if, what if? I hate that. My God, there's so much about that. What do you think the future struggles are going to be then? With that being said, assuming that people. I mean, we've got enough what ifs to deal with. What is the future for freelancers and agencies look like for creatives?
- [53:56]
Matt Smith
Can I be really philosophical for a second? Yeah, please. There is no future. There is only now. And I think we forget that too much. As creatives, we have very creative brains. And that's part of the problem. Myself, I include, like, I was thinking the other day, I've not tried, like, retinol or whatever it's called that you take for adhd, but I don't know what my life would be like if I did. Because this thing, when it's left unchecked, goes on some crazy adventures, man. Seriously, it is like it's in movie scripts. It's. It's like sometimes I just kind of, like, come out of a daydream and my palms are sweating. I'm like, where have I just been for the last 10 minutes? Amazing. And like, that's the problem is, like, we're so. We're so busy living in the future that we just forget the present. And right now, those problems don't exist. Like, right now, the 99% of the problems that you feel like you have do not exist right in this moment. And so, like, I'm not trying to avoid the question, but I just think if we start talking about, like, the future and AI and where are things going, like, we're just creating more problems for people that don't exist. Like, let's just deal with how things are now. And when AI takes everyone's jobs and we're all sitting on a beach, like, wondering what to do with ourselves. Let's cross that bridge when we get to it.
- [55:08]
Massimo
Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. Okay, so then what can creatives do now to be more in the presence, to prepare their businesses more so they can get the life that they want?
- [55:21]
Matt Smith
Focus on serving. I'll quote Tony Robbins again. One of the things that he talks about is this idea that all emotional suffering is really just an obsession with ourselves. Like, if you think about when you're pissed off, when you're sad, when you're lonely, whatever it is, if you really listen to that narrative in your head and you really listen to the beliefs and the thoughts are Going on, It's all about me. It's me, me, me. Like, I'm feeling so lonely, no one likes me. I should be hanging out with my friends right now. Or, oh, my God, what's going to happen if I do this and if that doesn't happen for me? And blah, blah, blah. Like, that's all the stuff that creates mental anguish. If we can learn to focus on other people, like, really focus externally on who do I really want to serve? Like, who are the people that I would actually get excited about hanging out with on a daily basis? Who are the people that have problems that I would really get excited about solving, and how can I solve those in a way that really has a meaningful impact for someone? Like, it's actually going to have a tangible impact on the quality of somebody's life or the quality of their experience in some way, even if it's just small. I really think that if creatives do more of that, they use all of the skills they have, all of their neuroticism and all of their imagination to really focus on someone outside of themselves. The world would be a much better place to live in.
- [56:47]
Massimo
Awesome, dude. Awesome.
- [56:49]
Matt Smith
So.
- [56:50]
Massimo
So. So this talks about the business side. Are you going to create a book about this whole other side of the world? I mean, again, I've business. I took a lot of this, but I've learned so much personally from this conversation.
- [57:02]
Matt Smith
Thanks, man. I appreciate that. So my next book is going to be called Creative Courage. It's the same title as my podcast. And I started to explore this topic first through Brenny Brown. I'm not sure if you're familiar with any of her work, but she. She talks a lot about courage and vulnerability. But one of the things, when I was interviewing my clients after we'd worked together for 6, 12, 18 months, I said, like, what have been the biggest takeaways of us working together? And they'd say a few things around, you know, oh, we've doubled our revenue, or I now now charge X and I used to charge why and blah, blah, blah. But the thing that always came from basically everybody I spoke to was I now have the confidence to insert the blank, right? I now have the confidence to challenge clients on the brief, and I have the confidence to charge what I really want to worth whatever, right? So there's this massive theme around confidence. And I was like, okay, if confidence is the outcome, what is the vehicle? What is the vehicle to confidence? And the vehicle to confidence is courage. You have to have the courage, first of all, to Say no to the bad fit clients. You have to have the courage to ask for what you actually want to be charging. You have to have the courage to step outside of your comfort zone and do things that you haven't done before. So courage is like the vehicle. So from a more sort of philosophical mindset perspective, the next book is all going to be around that. Like, how do we find the courage in these different circumstances to really do the things that are going to level up our life and our business?
- [58:31]
Massimo
Very cool. Oh, I can't wait to read that one.
- [58:33]
Sean
Yeah, that's awesome.
- [58:33]
Massimo
But in the meantime, I might read this one one or two more times and listen to this, listen to this in your conversation a few more times too. This is brilliant, man. I, I could take up too much of your time I, for sure today, but you know, I'm trying to be sensitive to, to you and, and I mean technically it's almost drinking hour in Dubai, right? Because it's like, it's like 5, 5:30, I guess over there right now.
- [58:54]
Matt Smith
20, 20 past 5. Yeah. The guy with the beers is just weighing outside the door.
- [59:00]
Massimo
Well, let us, you know, we finish off every episode, of course, with a rapid fire round of questions. And you know, some of them are simple, some of them are not, and they're just fun. Hopefully we can make this work and we see how long it takes. Now we used to give people a timeline and I think everybody blew that timeline except maybe one person.
- [59:18]
Sean
Yeah.
- [59:19]
Massimo
So let's see where you fit in the mix because again, we've had a lot of your friends, J. Martin, for the longest time, had the longest answer session. Chris was pretty good.
- [59:29]
Sean
Chris was very tight and concise as you could imagine.
- [59:31]
Massimo
Yeah. Right.
- [59:32]
Matt Smith
So, and, and again, so are we trying to. The, the aim of the game is to try and answer the questions in the most concise way possible, right?
- [59:40]
Massimo
I think so. I mean, you don't want to leave anything out, I guess.
- [59:42]
Sean
Yeah, yeah. As quickly as possible maybe, but there you go.
- [59:50]
Massimo
All right. Okay, ready?
- [59:52]
Matt Smith
I also had a career as an mc, so I can, I can spit some beats as well.
- [59:56]
Sean
Oh, there we go. I love it.
- [59:58]
Matt Smith
I'm only joking. I didn't really. I like to think, I like to think I could mc, but I don't think I could.
- [60:02]
Sean
You did own a record label though, did you not?
- [60:05]
Matt Smith
I did own a record label, yeah. That was fun for a while. Made no money. That was a really great, that was a really great example of like seeing the other side of the coin. Of like if you Just do something you love and you don't think about the business side of things. What does it look like? It looks like not having a lot of money, but it's fun.
- [60:21]
Sean
But it's very fulfilling, though. Kind of. Yeah.
- [60:24]
Matt Smith
Yeah, it's great. It was fun. We had some amazing artists that we helped break, but it didn't make us any money.
- [60:30]
Massimo
It's amazing. All right. Okay, ready?
- [60:32]
Sean
Are you ready, Matt?
- [60:33]
Matt Smith
Yeah, I'm ready. I'm ready.
- [60:34]
Sean
Ready, Ready. Okay, here we go.
- [60:36]
Massimo
Mac or PC?
- [60:37]
Matt Smith
Mac.
- [60:38]
Massimo
Paper or tablet?
- [60:39]
Matt Smith
Tablet.
- [60:39]
Massimo
Favorite type of music?
- [60:41]
Matt Smith
Deep house.
- [60:42]
Massimo
Ooh.
- [60:43]
Matt Smith
Favorite DJ at the moment? A guy called Ben Boma.
- [60:46]
Massimo
No, I'll check out. Favorite color?
- [60:48]
Matt Smith
Red.
- [60:49]
Massimo
Client call or email Client call. Favorite childhood toy.
- [60:55]
Matt Smith
It's gonna make me sound not cool, but definitely like a little blue teddy bear that I used to take around.
- [61:01]
Massimo
And he still has.
- [61:02]
Matt Smith
Yeah.
- [61:03]
Massimo
A morning person or night owl?
- [61:05]
Matt Smith
Definitely night owl.
- [61:06]
Massimo
Mouse or stylus?
- [61:09]
Matt Smith
I like to think I can draw, but I definitely can't. So I'm going to say mouse.
- [61:14]
Massimo
Most shocking thing about Dubai that you've learned. Oh.
- [61:21]
Matt Smith
I'm going to be a little bit careful.
- [61:25]
Massimo
They will kick you out.
- [61:26]
Matt Smith
Yeah, Yeah. I was going to say I'm still waiting for my visa, so that it's not all full of Instagram influences. And there are actually some cool people here. Oh, that's cool.
- [61:36]
Massimo
Okay, which is more important, a website or social media presence?
- [61:41]
Matt Smith
Social media. Hands down.
- [61:43]
Massimo
Which is more effective, a full campaign launch or a phased approach?
- [61:48]
Matt Smith
No idea. I don't even know if I know the difference.
- [61:50]
Massimo
Oh, okay. Quiet workspace or loud music blasting?
- [61:55]
Matt Smith
Definitely quiet workspace. I'm, like, a little bit on the spectrum when it comes to noise. Hence these. These big cans, the big hands on his head.
- [62:02]
Massimo
Coffee or tea?
- [62:03]
Matt Smith
Coffee.
- [62:04]
Massimo
Puppies or kittens?
- [62:05]
Matt Smith
Definitely puppies.
- [62:06]
Massimo
What's your favorite type of dog?
- [62:08]
Matt Smith
Vizsla?
- [62:09]
Massimo
Oh, no. All right, I think I know the answer to this, but which is more important, values or hustle?
- [62:16]
Matt Smith
You can keep your values whilst hustling.
- [62:20]
Massimo
Oh, trick question there. Favorite artist.
- [62:23]
Matt Smith
I'm gonna big up my friend Gabriella Baltazar. She's an awesome artist, and I have a lot of her artwork.
- [62:31]
Massimo
Oh, okay. We'll have to check that out. Instagram or LinkedIn?
- [62:34]
Matt Smith
Definitely LinkedIn. I'm. I'm starting to fall out of love with Instagram big time. LinkedIn is my. My place for sure.
- [62:40]
Massimo
Yeah. And that could be another episode in the future because I know you've done a lot of work on LinkedIn. What's your guilty pleasure?
- [62:46]
Matt Smith
I think chocolate. Like, I don't actually have a sweet tooth, but sometimes I just get, like, this random craving. Well, I'll just like, eat a whole box of celebrations. I don't know what comes over me. It's like time of the month or something. I don't know. But it's just polish that off. Like they're going out of fashion.
- [63:03]
Massimo
Yeah, it's when your diabetes kick is like, okay, I need a little bit more. What's your superpower of choice?
- [63:09]
Matt Smith
Oh, I was talking to Chris about this other day. The other day. So it's an interesting one. So I think it's sensitivity. So he was like, what's something that you. Because, you know, Chris does this whole thing, right? The. The superpower. Like, so he talks about, like, the. Is it the loud introvert? Recovering graphic designer. So we were kind of jamming out. He was out in Dubai a couple of weeks ago, and we were just hanging out, and he said, like, what's the thing that you are a little bit of ashamed of or that, like, maybe you were a bit kind of bullied about when you were growing up? And I was like, I think it's probably a sensitivity. Like, I've always been a very sensitive person. So when I was at school, I was bullied a little bit, but I didn't make things better for myself because I used to cry a lot. So when I was a child, I used to cry, like, all the time, right? And I remember my dad saying, like, you're a teenager now. Like, you should. You should. You should stop crying, basically. Like, it's okay to cry when you're a small child, but, like, man up, basically. And I've always been told that I'm quite sensitive, but I think sensitivity is one of the things that allows me to be so, like, attuned as a coach. Like, I'm very, very good at picking up on people's subtle cues. So sometimes I'll do. Or most of the time now, actually, I'll do, like, audio only coaching sessions. And it will just be the way that somebody says something. And I'll just go, okay, tell me more about that. And I. I can just like, I'm like, almost like a dog. I can just kind of sense, like, you know, lassie, someone's fallen down the well. And I'm like, oh, where is it? Over here? Like, I'm just. I'm just going. Because I'm so sensitive to the little cues in people's voice and their body language and just, like, the way that they're saying things. So I kind of feel like that, that sensitivity, although I was teased for it when I was, when I was a child and I've been told by lots of people even as an adult, like, you're very sensitive, whether it's to sound or just emotions in general. Like, I think that's actually kind of my superpower as well.
- [65:01]
Massimo
Yeah, that's actually really cool. And I think enough people don't take that into consideration. You know, the sensitivity, the empathy, you know that the empathic ability we have to connect with other people. So good on you for that.
- [65:13]
Sean
Yeah.
- [65:14]
Massimo
Value based work or high paying gigs.
- [65:17]
Matt Smith
If you price your gigs on value, they will be high paying.
- [65:22]
Massimo
Ah. Best video game console ever.
- [65:26]
Matt Smith
SEGA Mega Drive, hands down.
- [65:27]
Massimo
Whoa, going old there. What's the most practical thing about you?
- [65:32]
Matt Smith
The most practical thing about me? Oh, God. Not a practical person, to be honest. What's the most practical thing about me? I suppose I'm quite practical when it comes to like gear. So I'm the kind of person that just like, I'll travel with like a podcast mic and a microphone and everything and I'll, I'll have to have like a very specific setup. So I did a little behind the scenes video the other day on LinkedIn and like I've got my camera set up on a tripod with like an extension cable hanging off the ceiling, the lights rigged on like a kitchen table. So I'm like, I have to be very specific with my gear and like how it's all set up and yeah, like, I have to have it looking exactly how I want it basically.
- [66:16]
Massimo
All right, all right. Well then, in contract contrast, what's the most impractical thing about you?
- [66:21]
Matt Smith
I'm six foot three. It's quite impractical. Sometimes makes it hard to get in certain doorways. I bumped my head a lot. Can't fly economy classes anymore. That's, that's, that's a. Yeah, it's a real problem. So yeah, that's, that's probably the most impractical thing about me. The length of my limbs.
- [66:41]
Massimo
And he drives a Mini, so. I'm just kidding. Just kidding.
- [66:46]
Matt Smith
A smart car. Smart car.
- [66:48]
Massimo
And last but not least, what's one thing that always makes you angry?
- [66:53]
Matt Smith
Oh, do you know what it is? It's getting ripped off from like a monetary perspective in some way. So I had one recently where I stayed in an Airbnb and the, the air conditioning just like didn't work properly and they sent guys to come and fix it and I was like, guys, it's not working. It's like 27 degrees in here. I need to move apartment. And they were like trying to, you know, say that it was working. And then so I left in the end. And then Airbnb were like, oh, there's not enough evidence to suggest that this thing wasn't working properly. And they wanted to, like, not give me a refund. And I was fuming. I was like, how dare you, like, take this money? But, like, yeah, if someone's trying to rip me off financially, it like fills me with rage. Damn.
- [67:36]
Massimo
Okay, I'm right there with you on that one.
- [67:38]
Sean
Nice.
- [67:39]
Massimo
All right, my friend. Well, you know, you break, There was a 30 second break, but I think you, you, you've topped Chris, that's for sure. So you've, you know, but not the highest yet. You're, you're in the eight minute realm. So good on you, my friend.
- [67:52]
Matt Smith
Okay, I'll send him a message and tell him that I'm, I'm better, better at him than something.
- [67:57]
Massimo
Yeah, this is a freaking awesome conversation. I, I, I generally, I love conversations with people, but I have learned so much about this one that I kind of feel like you need to send me a bill because I think you, you've kind of like, you know, encroached on areas that I didn't think I was going to cover. So thank you for this. There's a lot of valuable stuff I gleaned from this.
- [68:18]
Sean
Yeah.
- [68:18]
Massimo
You know, let alone, you know, anybody else who's listening. So how can people find you?
- [68:23]
Matt Smith
Well, one thing I'd love to gift you and your listeners is a free copy of my book. So I will give you the link to that and we'll, we'll put it in the show notes below. But I hang out on LinkedIn. That's my, that's my platform, as my go to platform. I'm on there every day. I respond to most messages and yeah, I'd love to connect with anyone that enjoyed this episode and that got some value.
- [68:43]
Massimo
Oh, absolutely. I don't know how anybody could not get any value from this. So thank you so much. I'm glad we connected, you know, and I'm glad we made this happen. And, you know, by all means, you know, you ever need anything, you can reach out to us, you can reach out to our listeners, you know, and this is going to be fun. And I can't wait to see your next book. So we'll be in touch from this point forward, that's for sure.
- [69:01]
Matt Smith
Yeah, I'll make sure to send it to you. I might even get your thoughts on it before it. Before it goes out. I'm always looking for test readers, so if you guys would be up for that, then I'll send you.
- [69:11]
Massimo
Heck, yeah.
- [69:11]
Matt Smith
And I'd love to do this in person sometime. I know you guys get out and about, and I know you did some live sessions at Creative south and things like that, so. Yeah, if we're ever in the same part of the world, we should link up. Absolutely. And, yeah. Hang out.
- [69:26]
Massimo
Oh, absolutely. I think. I think it'd be, like, a lot of fun, actually. Maybe too much fun, but that's okay. But that is not an excuse for me to come to Dubai, because I think I would hate it there. I think. I think it'd be too hot and too sandy and I'd be pulling out, you know, dust from, you know, crevices for weeks to come. Yeah.
- [69:43]
Sean
Too much beard.
- [69:44]
Massimo
Too much beard. I hope you guys got something or a lot out of this episode. You know, we will be sharing his book in the show notes below. And, you know, feel free to connect with him on LinkedIn. Feel free to hit him up on his. But your podcast is. Sorry, we just. We kind of just didn't even go into detail about that.
- [70:00]
Matt Smith
That's cool. It's all good. Yeah. It's called Creative Courage, so the title of my next book, so if you search my name, Matt Smith and Creative Courage, you should find the podcast.
- [70:10]
Sean
Nice.
- [70:10]
Massimo
All right, well, thank you again for everything here.
- [70:12]
Matt Smith
Thank you.
- [70:13]
Massimo
You all know where to find us. You know, hit us up on our website, hit us up on our podcast, and please, you know, check out Matt and everything is done, because I guarantee he will make a difference, even with what he's got right now out there, let alone even taking it further with some private sessions. You will gain so much from this book, Create and Prosper, which is now a copy available to everybody else out there. And. And I hope you all got something from this.
- [70:35]
Sean
Yes.
- [70:36]
Massimo
All right.
- [70:36]
Sean
Yeah.
- [70:37]
Massimo
All right, everybody. With that being said, my name is Massimo.
- [70:40]
Sean
My name is Sean.
- [70:41]
Massimo
And you are my Essen.
- [70:43]
Matt Smith
Yes.
- [70:44]
Massimo
Stay creative and stay angry. Peace.
- [70:51]
Unknown
I feel like I'm losing my mind.
- [70:54]
Matt Smith
Everybody in the world die Please, Lord, give me a shot a shot I.
- [71:03]
Unknown
Want to be the greatest Everybody on their face I look around I feel like everybody is the fakest I make this every day and I'm impatient Hoping one day I blow up from the basement Statement the top is so vacant I don't even shit that I think is amazing Waiting for my day when I'm playing sold out shows for a thousand faces. Hey, give me that crown. Get in my way and you'll be put down. It ain't your place. All this my town. If I want that, then I'll get it.
- [71:23]
Massimo
Right now.
- [71:24]
Unknown
I'm losing it. The noose. If it's the Lucy shit. A stupid myth. You choose to live or choose to dip. You choose to fight or lose your grip and lose a gift. I feel like I'm losing my mind.
- [71:36]
Matt Smith
Everybody in the world, please, Lord, give me a sign. A sign.