Why Most Graphic Designers Hit a Salary Ceiling and Don’t Even Realize It

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Angry Designer – Why Most Graphic Designers Hit a Salary Ceiling and Don’t Even Realize It

Date: March 17, 2026
Hosts: Massimo & Sean (SJ Green)

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Overview

This episode of The Angry Designer unapologetically tackles the uncomfortable truth about the “salary ceiling” most graphic designers face—why so many never surpass $80,000 a year in earnings. Drawing from personal agency leadership experience and candid industry observations, the hosts break down the real causes behind career stagnation in design—not just individual skill, but a widespread undervaluing of strategic business thinking. The conversation ranges from industry conditioning and social media influences to leveraging strategy over pure execution, all while keeping the banter real and relatable.

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Key Topics & Insights

1. The "Invisible" Designer Salary Ceiling

(00:00 – 04:34)

• Massimo opens by confronting the reality: “Most graphic designers will never earn more than 80 grand a year.” It’s not due to laziness or even lack of talent; the industry simply flatlines pay once you reach “senior designer.”
  • Quote: “...the industry quietly hands them this badge of senior designer, like it's final level in a video game or something.” ([00:35], Massimo)
• This “speed limiter” is rarely discussed but widely experienced.

2. Differences in Designer Mindsets

(01:22 – 03:38)

• Contrasts two types of designers:
  • Craftspeople: Focused on the work itself, often resistant to change (like AI).
  • Strategists: Involved in broader business thinking, planning and systems.
• Direct experience highlighted the income gap: those who lean into strategy and business outpace craftspeople financially.

3. How Industry & Education Condition Underpayment

(04:34 – 06:46)

• Designers are traditionally taught only the craft—not business, pricing, or value.
  • Quote: “Schools teach aesthetics, okay. They don't teach the economics of the whole space. Which is kind of unfortunate.” ([05:21], Massimo)
• Social media further reinforces quick creative gratification (“logo porn”), rarely spotlighting strategy or case studies.
• “Craft does not equal income”—strong portfolios and skill alone aren’t enough for higher pay.

4. The Myth of Craft = More Money

(06:46 – 11:03)

• The hosts debunk the myth that improving design skill indefinitely will yield more money:
  • Quote: “If that was the case...all these billion dollar tech companies wouldn't have such shitty logos...It’s like designers were trained to become masters at the part of the job that pays the least.” ([06:57], Massimo)
• Real value lies in the problems designers solve and the strategies they bring, not just beautiful execution.
• Many designers fear strategy and responsibility, opting instead for stability at the expense of growth.

5. The Economics of Design Work & Agency Perspective

(17:07 – 20:31)

• As an agency owner, Massimo explains that salary is directly tied to economic output—a senior designer is paid up to what their maximum daily production allows.
• Once execution is maxed out, so is salary; further growth requires new skills or contributions—primarily, strategy that directly impacts client revenue.
  • Quote: “You're working on our top clients, graphic design needs, but what else you got? Type thing, right? So if you're maxed out on execution, I'm maxed out on salary for your execution.” ([18:21], Massimo)
• Example: Instead of more design work, bringing strategic solutions can increase client retainers and personal earnings.

6. Breaking Through the Ceiling: The Power of Strategy

(20:32 – 24:32)

• Designers break the ceiling by shifting from “doer” to “thinker”: becoming art directors, creative leads, brand strategists, consultants, or fractional creative directors.
• The difference is not in hours worked, but what problems you solve and how you communicate that value.
• “Hands-on” design income plateaus; “brains-on” strategic work scales up.
  • Quote: “...we didn't just sit back and be like, well, we can design more...I approached them with an idea...that was worth another quarter million dollars.” ([21:12], Massimo)
• Value is in outcomes, not deliverables.

7. Owning the Process & Communicating Value

(32:03 – 35:24)

• Clients value designers who:
  • Frame problems: Don’t just fulfill requests, but dig into why those requests exist.
  • Explain decisions: Articulate the reasoning behind design choices, referencing market, audience, and data, not just taste.
    • Quote: “There is a whole new level of respect when you can tell customers...the reason why you chose this color, this image, this format, this font. And...never about your personal feelings.” ([32:39], Massimo)
  • Make the first move: Lead the process, don’t wait for “perfect” briefs.

8. Notable Examples & Myths

(36:10 – 39:11)

• Debunks the lore of “million dollar logos”: Cases like Paula Scher’s Citibank involved not a sketch "on a napkin," but deep insight and brand architecture.
• Companies pay for lasting business outcomes, not for time spent or output volume.

9. Why AI Threatens Only Pure Craftspeople

(25:25 – 30:07) & (38:02 – 39:44)

• AI is only a threat to those who base value solely in execution; designers who evolve into strategic partners remain indispensable and in demand.
  • Quote: “To me, it's like AI fucks people over who only focus on the craft. That's why they hate it, that's why they don't like it, and that's why they're scared, because they identify with that. Right. I never have.” ([27:04], Massimo)
• Design’s future is bright for those who embrace change and focus on problems, not just polished pixels.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Segments

• “Most graphic designers will never earn more than 80 grand a year. There, I said it.” ([00:00], Massimo)
• On Craft vs. Strategy: “The craft doesn't necessarily equal the income...It’s like designers were trained to become masters at the part of the job that pays the least.” ([06:57], Massimo)
• On Ownership: “So you're a designer who actually makes money?” ([15:46], Vendor at Creative South event)
• On Making the First Move: “Clients hate doing creative briefs...the reason why they don't like it is because...you should know the problem.” ([34:13], Massimo)
• On AI and Strategy: “AI fucks people over who only focus on the craft. That's why they hate it, that's why they don't like it, and that's why they're scared, because they identify with that. Right. I never have.” ([27:04], Massimo)
• On Value: “Companies value outcomes, not the executable.” ([37:43], Massimo)

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Practical Takeaways

• Education is incomplete: If you want to break through salary ceilings, you must self-teach business, pricing, and client strategy. Schools won’t prep you for this.
• Strategy beats execution: Develop big-picture, revenue-generating skills—a designer who “just delivers” the brief stagnates; one who reframes the problem and leads the client commands much greater fees.
• Communicate process: Always explain your thinking, not just your output.
• Lead, don’t wait: Establish yourself as a strategic guide, not just an order-taker.
• Don’t let “cool” control you: “Cool shit” is great, but working on big business problems (even in B2B/corporate spaces) can be just as (if not more) rewarding and lucrative.
• AI is an opportunity: Use it as a tool to empower your process, not as competition for your execution.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00 – The salary ceiling—why it happens and why no one talks about it.
• 03:18 – Meeting the business-minded designer; the mindset gap.
• 04:34 – Design education’s failure around business + early money perceptions.
• 06:57 – Craft vs. income—designer myth busting.
• 17:07 – Agency economics & why execution maxes out your pay.
• 20:32 – Strategy as the path to growth and higher salaries.
• 27:04 – Why AI is only a threat to craftspeople; embracing the strategic role.
• 32:03 – Explaining decisions and taking charge in the design process.
• 36:21 – Paula Scher’s “million dollar logo:” the real story behind the legend.
• 39:44 – Final take: design careers have more potential than ever if you build the right skills.

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Conclusion

This episode delivers a reality check (with a shot of optimism) for designers at any career stage. The door to higher earnings and lifelong creative fulfillment isn’t locked, but it’s not on the well-worn path of endlessly improving your hands-on design. To break the ceiling, step up as a problem-solver, strategic thinker, and business partner. That’s where the magic—and the money—lie.

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Transcript

[A]

Most graphic designers will never earn more than 80 grand a year. There, I said it. And it's not because they're bad or lazy or even because they lack talent, because their work gets better and their portfolios get stronger and their responsibilities often grow, but the salary kind of flatlines. And then the industry quietly hands them this badge of senior designer, like it's final level in a video game or something. In this episode of the Angry Designer podcast, powered by WIX Studio, we're talking about the designer income ceiling that almost nobody in the industry actually admits exists. Because I've lived on both sides of this, the designer side and the agency owner side. And once you see what's actually causing it, you'll realize it has nothing to do with talent and everything to do with the job designers are paid to do. So if you're a graphic designer who's ever wondered why your career suddenly feels like it's hit a speed limiter, this episode might explain exactly that. Let's go. Well, my friend, let's just start off. It's been a long week.

[B]

It has, it really feels like has.

[A]

I, I, I.

[B]

We need this.

[A]

We've earned, earned this.

[B]

Yes, we have.

[A]

And this is our, our handmade. Oh, scotch, right?

[B]

Yes, that's right.

[A]

For those of you. For those of you listen to this FinTech episode after we recorded.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Last week's episode.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Authenticity. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I went onto a group call.

[B]

Oh, yeah, right.

[A]

A whole bunch of designers. Which, which we do. I belong to groups. You know, James Bernard's got a, got groups. And, and you know, you get just to kind of keep in touch with everybody, see what's up. Yeah, and these people were like awesome crafts people. Right? These were, these were the designers. These were all like, really talented people. And I'm pretty sure most of them were like freelancers. I don't think anybody was working for a company.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And it was a really interesting conversation. But, you know, at, at some point AI came out and they were just not having any of it. These, these were a bunch of designers that were hating on A.I. oh, really bad. And I mean, it was kind of stuff that we talk about, you know, about. It shouldn't do this. It was taking over what they do, taking over their craft, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, and, and I did pipe in a little bit and I'm like, well, you know, guys, maybe instead use it for your process. You know, use it for other parts of your business, because it's fantastic for that. Maybe try doing it. You Know, and because it's not going anywhere and, and it's like crickets. It was really uncomfortable because it, it kind of seemed like it fell in deaf ears and, and not in a bad way. Right. But maybe just because they were, like, shocked that somebody there at the group

[B]

was actually, was actually a pro, Pro AI person. Right.

[A]

So needless to say, as, as uncomfortable as it was, you know, we all, we, we all kept chatting.

[B]

Yeah, good.

[A]

And, you know, and nobody, I guess, hated on me.

[B]

I was just gonna say they didn't.

[A]

I think it's pretty obvious what my stance is on this. But so then the following week, at the beginning of this week, I had another, you know, meeting, but not with a different group of people, with a single creative designer and somebody who I've known, we know and is, you know, somebody who's also very successful and really good at what he does. And it was a completely different conversation. Okay. And it was, it was really kind of interesting because it was like he was, you know, although he was also an incredible designer, he was also a business person.

[B]

There we go.

[A]

You know, and there was, there was a lot more strategy, you know, and he was making bigger plans. It wasn't just working on the craft, but it was bigger systems, bigger programs, and it was a really interesting. The, the, the dichotomy was incredible between

[B]

the two, the two different versions.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Does he have his own shop, this guy?

[A]

Does he does.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yes, yes. And he's, you know, works with Adobe and, and, and you know, he does a lot. Not that that is any credibility for me. It is, yeah, yeah. They recognize the talent and the skill and needless to say, it was, it was an interesting, you know, conversation just to see that, like, I was, I was really kind of taken back by, by the difference between the two. Right, right. And it really kind of made me think that, you know, after that conversation with him, I, I, and this is going to sound really cruel, but I don't think a lot of designers are ever going to make it past like 80k a year. Okay. And, you know, and I don't mean to sound like an. About this, okay. And there's a lot of factors involved here and it has nothing to do with AI. It really doesn't. But, you know, I think that it's just like, you know, maybe designers have always been trained to be underpaid. Okay. And this, this sounds kind of ridiculous, of course, but.

[B]

By the industry?

[A]

Yeah, a little bit by the industry. Well, I mean, again, big time by. This is like, I mean, again, do you ever remember you went to school? Yeah, Went to school. Did anybody ever teach you about pricing? Did anybody ever teach you about business or, or, or how to value your project? You know, how to value your work? All they ever taught us was how to design.

[B]

Yeah, okay, which is the thing that came up. Money was my high school art teacher. He was like, I know guys working in the graphic artists industry. It's graphic artists is how old this was back in the old days that are making $80,000 a year.

[A]

Isn't that fun? Yeah.

[B]

And it was like that was the only thing.

[A]

So he gave you money?

[B]

He told me, he told me this is what some guys can make, but it's a college level. Nothing.

[A]

Nothing. How to value yourself. Exactly. Right? Schools teach aesthetics, okay. They don't teach the economics.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Of the whole space. Okay. Which is kind of unfortunate. And then if you go even deeper, okay, so let's say screw school, okay? But I mean, they teach you how to do the craft, not the business side. Yeah. Then you go, nowadays, social media, okay, we have some friends who are, you know, fantastic, super crazy, you know, logo designers and, you know, they can poop on social media. You know, a logo out, it doesn't even have to be good. And they'll get a ton of raves and reviews and, and everybody's scrolling quick through Instagram and this and that and, and you know, and everybody's praising, you know, the logo designs and the quick, you know, logo porn, you know, and. But nobody cares when somebody wants to talk about a strategy session. They want to break down a case study. Right? So this is what I mean. Boards, like, you know, designers have been learning and appreciating and praising the craft portion of this, okay. And, and they're kind of like, you know, growing that, but they're not really realizing that the craft doesn't necessarily equal the income. Okay? And this is one of, and you know, this is kind of convoluted way of going about this, but, you know, it's kind of like this whole lie creates this ceiling that I think everybody just doesn't even realize exists for designers. Right, right.

[B]

The starving designer.

[A]

Well, that's a similar. Right, because again, it's like, you know, you're led to think that the better designer you are, the more money you're gonna make.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

That actually isn't the case because there actually is a seal. I mean, if that was the case, okay, all these billion dollar tech companies wouldn't have such shitty logos. Okay? Think about it. I was looking today and it was just like, there's another font, there's another font logo, there's another. And it was all the same San Sarah, big bulbs, like 12 tech companies. And it was scrolling and it' give

[B]

nothing, nothing interesting down to it at all, oddly enough.

[A]

Right. But it's true. It's ridiculous because it's like almost like designers were trained to become masters at the part of the job that pays the least. In the long term. In the long term.

[B]

That's the sexy part, though, right?

[A]

Well, it is sexy in that sense. Right? It is, it's sexy. And as designers, we love that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But is it sexy to. To realize that there's a cap to what it is that you do?

[B]

I don't. Again, like, it's, you know, you talk about the logo, porn and stuff like that. You're right. It's like, that's great. That's all awesome. And that's just like a little sliver of what it is that we do. But there is so much more behind it, strategy and all kinds of stuff like that. Like, you're right, you're right. Like, it's. That's, to me, is not sexy as a design.

[A]

So. I love Alan Peters, of course, you know, and, and everything he does, I think is one the of the greatest designs we have right now, you know, in, in, in this generation. But I appreciate what he does because he talks through his process right now, whether, you know, the videos. And I've never actually had this conversation with him, but I'm. I'm curious and I will if. If. If the, the videos that he talks about his process and how he got there and his thinking do any different than when he's showing some of his sexy stuff and just like, hey, I did this. You know, I'm curious to see what the feedback.

[B]

It's interesting that you say that because I just watched a reel with J.

[A]

Our.

[B]

Our buddy down there. He was talking about how he landed a client by talking about his process.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So it's like this is the thing, and that's what will separate him from any kind of AI slop.

[A]

That's exactly right. And again, it is so. And through all this, it's like we've developed all these, you know, villain mindset, you know, messes, traps that I think that we've done ourselves. You know, things like thinking that the better that we're, the better that we do at craft. Right. Means that you're going to make more money. Right, Right. Because at the same time, it's like you made A comment. And I hope Alan doesn't mind me saying this, but you made a comment about. In one of our podcasts about, you know, Alan Peters. Oh, he must be making bang. And Alan actually laughed. He's laugh out loud. Then he put in quotes, that guy must be making bank. Okay, granted, you know, what might be very different to some or another, you know, but the funny thing is you hear all these other stories about, you know, designers, you know, getting a million dollars for a logo, but there's pro. Probably a lot of flourish there. And we'll, we'll talk about one of those examples a little later.

[B]

I know the one you're talking about,

[A]

but, you know, it's like, you know, the one mindset is, if I learn how to design better, I'll make more money. And that's not true. Yeah, absolutely. But it is a mindset trap that we believe.

[B]

Yeah, okay, you'll make more money. But up to a certain point.

[A]

Up to a certain point, absolutely. Right. It's not, it's not infinite. It doesn't keep going. Right. And whether, you know, you are, you know, you know, at this, at doing this for 10 years, you know, in this area, doing it for 20 years in the area, I don't think you're going to see a double, double the years experience, but not double the pay. Not even close to that. Right, right. You know, there's also this, this, this mindset that it's like, well, you know what? I don't want this responsibility. Okay. That goes along with that. Right. Because then all of a sudden, I, I realize I have to add strategy to this, and that's not cool. That's scary.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I don't want that on my plate.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

So then what happens that goes back to being like, taking a step back, saying, well, I'm not a leader, so I, I will take this.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Happily. Right, okay. And again, that's, that's kind of goes against. It's, it's, it's like a villain mindset thing that we're telling us. We're almost tricking ourselves into believing. Yeah, right. And. And I think it really holds people back on what their potential is, having

[B]

experienced that side of things. Because when I had a. Took a brief leave from our employee.

[A]

Certainly. Good.

[B]

Yes. Running a shop is a very different animal from. From what?

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And that gives me great appreciation for what it is that you do, because, like, I was lost. Yeah. I had no idea what I was juggling. And there is a lot of, there's a lot of stuff that you're dealing with. Yeah. So it, it was a failed experiment

[A]

for me, you know, and, and maybe I, it's my ADD mindset that I need this constant dopamine kick of 20, 30 different things at a time.

[B]

Yes. Maybe there's a certain thing, fearlessness that I think that comes with it.

[A]

Fair enough.

[B]

And I think that's. And I didn't have that. I was constantly afraid. Whereas I think you can, you can roll with punches and stuff like that when it. Yeah, yeah. It's just like it happens.

[A]

Happens. Yeah. Right.

[B]

And if you didn't have that, that attitude, oh boy, it's gonna, it's gonna hurt.

[A]

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[B]

I do that.

[A]

Where some people just have this mindset that I just want to create cool shit. Yeah, right. And, you know, that's great in one hand, but it also works against you if you think that cool shit is not the corporate.

[B]

That's exactly right. And this is the kind of thing that I like about it. It's. You frame it. It's how. It's how you frame it. It's cool in a different box.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

Do you know what I mean? Like, yes. It's not a beer label.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But also it's, you know, it's a strategy.

[A]

Big strategy. Yes. Bigger problems to solve bigger problems. Our problems move the needle not in tens of thousands, but hundreds of thousands.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Millions.

[B]

Right.

[A]

To me, that's kind of.

[B]

But that is kind of cool. So that to me is like, if you look at it from a different perspective, it is sexy and it is cool.

[A]

So it's funny, the first year we went to creative site. Yes. Right. When. Remember that night we went to that diner where it's like, we found the fried cockroach in the. In the fried.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Yes, yes.

[A]

Needless to say, I was sitting with one of the vendors from Creative south, and this guy, he was. His was so cool. Okay. It was his look, his brand. You know, they were doing skateboards and T shirts, and in my opinion, very cool.

[B]

Good stuff, great stuff.

[A]

And. And he was a cool guy. And so we were just talking while everybody was talking at this table. And then after, I'm like, you know, praising him. I'm like, dude, your shit's so awesome. I wish, you know, my son's more cool, blah, blah. But like, wow. And I'm asking a million questions afterwards, he's like, he goes, okay, well, what's your deal?

[B]

Yeah, what do you do?

[A]

Right? He's like, you're a graphic designer. I said, yeah, yeah, I'm a graphic designer. I said, you know, I own a creative studio and we focus on B2B technology companies. And he just stops, pauses, and he's like, so you're a designer who actually makes money? And it was just. It's like he was almost acknowledging here. I've been.

[B]

I eat.

[A]

To me, I was worshiping what he was doing.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

And, you know, unfortunately, you know, you know, B2B technology doesn't always suit flames and skulls and. But, you know, at the same time. And he had an equal respect. It was almost funny. He was like, so you. You actually know how to make money.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

You're a Designer who makes money.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And it was kind of like, well, you know, did I just lose the cool identity? I don't think so.

[B]

No, I don't think so. I.

[A]

Making money is kind of cool, personally, but I'm a capitalist pig.

[B]

So if you can make money in graphic design or in, in this field, I. I don't think there's any shame in that. Like, you're not a sellout or anything like that.

[A]

But there is sometimes an impression of that, you know, because people. Well, I mean, because people think that, you know, agencies, you know, they, they pay people on this. They. They create cool environments to keep people there cheap. Right? Yeah. That they always, like, people think that it's like, you know, okay, you know, granted, you know, startups do sometimes, you know, p. People on the cheap side.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Maybe not always because they don't value them, but, you know, maybe because they can't actually afford to or, or maybe there is a little bit of abuse that happens there. I don't know.

[B]

Right, Totally.

[A]

You know, but then this whole, you know, juniors achieve, seniors are expensive. We just had this conversation like a couple weeks ago, right? This is the impression that always happens, but, you know, as an agency owner, okay, there's some economical shit that people need to realize when it comes to what a designer gets paid, okay? Because it's not just because, you know, screw it, you're not going to make this much because I'm an asshole and I'm not going to get you this much, right. Your salary is tied directly to what you're able to produce.

[B]

There we go.

[A]

As a designer, as a graphic designer who works somewhere, you know, nine to five or eight till six, whatever it is, right. You're going to be producing so much work every day, okay. Whether you are, you know, you've been doing this for 5 years, 10 years, 20 years at your max, you're still going to be only able to produce this much as a designer, okay? And unfortunately, when you hit that cap as a senior designer, it's like, how else can I get you money? You're now, you are producing, you know,

[B]

incredible work and you're maxed out.

[A]

You're working on our top clients, graphic design needs, but what else you got? Type thing, right? So it's like if you're maxed out on execution, I'm maxed out on salary for your execution, right? So it's like, you know, if you want more money. Yeah. You know, I've had people be like, okay, well, how do I make more money?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, what Do I need to do to the sad reality?

[A]

The sad reality is like, because you're tied to your execution, your output. Okay. What else can you do that could bring in more money? Right. Because again, you know, we often equate it to, you know, how much money you can earn back for the company that would pay for the bigger picture and pay for this and pay for that and salaries and. And salaries that don't make money. There's a lot of things that are involved here. Okay. But the unfortunate part is craft does have a ceiling. And it doesn't matter if you're at an agency, if you're within a company. Right. You're what you're producing because it's a craft, it's an executable is only going to be. It's not. It's not limitless.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What can be limitless is the strategy part of this. Because that's how you start ideating, coming up with ways on how to help the customer make more money.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

So then you're helping the business come up with different ways to bill more, which now means your value goes up because your value isn't. Now isn't maxed out at, I don't know, we'll just, for shits and giggles, 500 things a year. Okay. You can design 500 jobs a year. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. You know, and if every one of those jobs have this much money, I can't get any more for them. That's all you're worth. But now it's like, you know what? I'm only going to do 400 jobs, but I've got this one idea. Yeah. And if we do this right, the customer will save millions. We'll make thousands. Hey, guess what? That deserves a raise.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

Okay. That now puts you at a different level, but that involves a different set of skills, and designers don't realize that all the time. So it's not like you hate the agency for maxing designers out at, you know, like a senior designer is maxed out at 80K. Yeah. And I think that is the legitimate number. I mean, I. Yeah, I went on the labor bureau. I've seen the states, I've seen the numbers. And that range of 60 to 80 as a designer.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Is a real thing.

[B]

Yep, Yep.

[A]

Dude. You know, we had a customer and it was like, for example, perfect example here. Right. We were capped out because we were just creating their execution, this stuff. Right. And that's all we were doing. We were doing the same hours. Right. It was like our. One of our first Production gigs. We were only making, you know, we'll say quarter million dollars for that. Okay. Okay. Really? That's what it was. All of a sudden. It was just like I saw other problems they were having internally. I knew what they wanted to achieve.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And then I approached them with an idea that we could execute. Okay. That, you know, would then help them execute on their objectives.

[B]

There we go.

[A]

That was worth another quarter million dollars to.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

Okay. So now our retainer went from 250 to half a million dollars. Okay. And it was because we thought, and then that that opened up a whole world of other new, other executables and creatives and this and that. Right. But the reality is, you know, we didn't just sit back and be like, well, we can design more.

[B]

Yeah, we'll just do whatever you ask and that's it. I could, I could, you know, put in some effort, but I don't really feel like it because $250,000 is all I'm worth.

[A]

Right, right. And that's it.

[B]

Right?

[A]

That's exactly it.

[B]

That's exactly it. And the customer, again, just like the agency owner, is going to pay you according to what skills you bring to the table.

[A]

Absolutely. Right. So it's. I think that's the thing that people need to realize. It has to go past just the hands on design part. Because no matter how good you are, unless you start building a niche brand and you're paying for the Aaron Draplin magic.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. You're also paying for cachet of Aaron Draplin. Okay. Yeah. But when you talk to people like Christo. Okay. You're not paying for Christo magic by his hands. You're paying for his knowledge brain. He's busy. You listen to the, that that guy talks about.

[B]

It's. It's on another level.

[A]

Exactly. And business owners love that. They appreciate that. And that's why they're willing to pay Chris Doe what he's worth.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Not because he's a fancy designer. Because in, in all fairness, I've seen very few things on him about hands on design. No. I've seen so much about business execution, how to give more value as a designer, that this is how designers go past that 80k mark. This is how designers. Because. But it's not being a designer. No. Right. It's not being just a designer.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because I think, you know, we're always taught that. It's like. Actually we're always taught that it's like you start off as a junior designer and then you're an intermediate designer, then you go as a senior and then a better senior and an even better senior designer. Right. They never teach you this in school, Nobody ever talks about it. But the reality is that path is so different. Okay. If you want to grow. Yeah. Okay. Like if you're in an agency, you're, you know, you go from junior designer to senior designer, but then from senior designer to art director.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Once you get good at that, you could be then a creative lead. If you get even better, then you're like the creative director from there. Right? And that's in an agency, in a business, you'd go from designer to business or brand strategist probably. Right. I'm guessing maybe a marketing strategist. So you keep going up, but you're not being paid for your hands on craft, right? Okay. You're being paid now to just start using your mind and dig deeper and solve bigger problems. Right. And the same as a freelancer, the value freelancers have isn't in just, you know, here's a new logo I've designed for you, right? It's, here's a new strategic vision for. Vision for you, right? You all of a sudden become a strategic partner for the company, right? As a freelancer, okay. It's completely possible, right? You become a brand consultant, not just logo designer, you become some. I, I mean I've met some creative, some freelancers who become fractional creative directors. Fractional, right.

[B]

So like a part time creative director,

[A]

you know, what agency, believe it or not, they split themselves up into like threes or fours, right? Because some companies, some startups don't have budget for a full time creative director for a year, but they do have the need for someone to come in, in a high level. Wow. I know. And tell me that is so much more valuable than slinging all these freelance jobs all the time. And that's how they, you know, that's how they end up making more money ultimately if they want, if they want to make more money. Right. Again, it's not all about the money, right? It really isn't. Some people, you know, you don't have to break 80k. You can be very happy doing it. Right. And you know, so it's like some people want the craft, they love the crap. That's fine. I'm never against that. Right. Know your lane. Yeah, but that's not what this isn't about. This isn't about shaming people for not trying to make more, right. But it's bringing this to light for people based from a Business perspective.

[B]

Your perspective, exactly.

[A]

Yeah. The more I was thinking about those conversations, the more I'm thinking, this is why I've never been scared of AI taking over my role. Right. Because I think the truth is, although I love graphic design, I'm passionate about. That's what I. That's what I went to school for and dropped out for and redid it again in a different direction. And that's what I identify as.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's been years now that I realized that, you know, my value isn't tied to what I could do with my hand. No. It was tied to the strategy I put ahead of it. Right. I've been wireframing shit for years now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. Somebody needs an ad. We were doing the postcard, okay. Just recently with a customer, and, you know, before we even sent them any designs, I was like, look, approve this first, because I want to make sure we're on the same page. This is what I'm thinking. I sent them basically a very rough sketch. I want. This happened here. This is the kind of image I want here. This is the kind of cta, what do you think? I did this all before the creative. I could have just said creative blindly doing. By sending that first, it let them know the strategy, why I was doing it, why who the audience was, why I changed the messaging compared to what they asked for. In the brief, there was a whole thing here for just a direct mail piece. But the reality is I still work in wireframes before I work in creative. Yeah. Okay. And so, you know, to me, it's like AI fucks people over who only focus on the craft. That's why they hate it, that's why they don't like it, and that's why they're scared, because they identify with that. Right. I never have. Okay. Sorry. I, I, obviously, that's my end result.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But that's the end of my process. My whole upfront process is worth so much more than the actual deliverable. Yeah. And I realized that years ago. So I think that's why AI was just like, yeah, fine, it's easy. I'll. I embrace it.

[B]

Right. It's the, it's the execution, what you're using it for. You're using it for strategy purposes. Whereas some people, who's a purit, who are purists and, and strictly craft oriented, they are going to think, I'm not going to use AI because it's going to take my job from me. That's not what I want. Yeah.

[A]

And maybe that's what happened that day when I mentioned it, I would. Because they couldn't see what I was telling them. I'm like, guys, you know, you're sitting back and waiting for a brief, right? I don't even wait for the brief. I'm like telling the customer, no, no, this is what you need and this is why. And, and I mean, our customers appreciate that, right? And it's, it's so much more, you know, pre, hands on design that, you know, that whether AI takes that over, whether it empowers, you know, like the design team at the back or whatever. Yeah, great. But the value that we bring, you know, just like that example with a customer was in the bigger picture thinking, I think that is the difference and I think that's what holds designers back, okay. Because there's certain skills designers refuse to develop, which are the skills that are the money makers that people just need to realize, Right? Like, you know, framing problems, okay? I always say this and people like, oh, how do you frame a problem? You know, like a customer came up to me and asked for a label. How is there a problem? They asked me for a label, right? So I go back to the Graza olive oil brand. Oh, okay, so there's a brand, okay. Olive oil more or less is a commodity.

[B]

The Italian guy would do that.

[A]

Of course. Olive oil, more or less a commodity type of product. And it's like either you have the real expensive olive oil or you have the real low shitty, cheap, shitty stuff that nobody likes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Needless to say, you know, so these Graza, the brand, okay, came out with basically a high end product, but for residential, for low end people, like people who just want to use it. Right. The way they market it was different. But the reality is that label design, okay, you know, when that actually went up to market, it wasn't just create me a label, it was sold of the problems that the industry is having. Okay. So they, they put on there, you know, how to use this version of the olive oil versus this one. This one is supposed to be for sizzle, right? If you're gonna cook sizzle and they put that on the label. Right. This one, if you just want to drizzle over top of your food or whatever.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

It says drizzle on that label, so exactly. Right. That sounds clever, right? That's a problem. How are they going to differentiate between the two? Right? On the label there is very different price point. This is, this is a premium. This is the top price for the residential shift.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

On the label they explained why it was the Most expensive. Okay. They explained why they were more than everything else on that. They weren't hiding anything. Yeah. They said we're more expensive. This is why, you know, even the squeezy bottle. Okay. They came up with a squeezy bottle concept. Okay. Exactly. Mind blowing. Okay. But these are the problems designers are paid to solve. So somebody would be like, hey, I got an olive oil brand I want to put. Yeah. You can just design the label.

[B]

You could just go and you could. You could do your research. And it's like this here, this looks like. Yeah. This is kind of in the wheelhouse of what an olive oil. Exactly. Would have.

[A]

Or you're like, hey, you know what? We should hit the market in a different way. We can. We can separate these labels. We can introduce a new style. We can give a squeezy bottle instead of just your traditional old school.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And all these ideas come from designers who want to solve these kinds of problems.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

So you can deliver a label. Yeah. Or you can almost then build out a whole system that solves all these problems that have been holding back all these other brands.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. And it helps that the quality of the product is pretty good. The quality of the problem. An Italian guy.

[B]

But this is the. That's the beauty of it is you've got the quality of the product, but you've got the everyman version of the squeezy bottle. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, that's.

[A]

You know what?

[B]

This is good shit. But it's practical. Exactly. It's practical, but it's the best product you're gonna get.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

In this price point.

[A]

So again, it's beautiful. So again, problem solving.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. So it. It.

[A]

Can somebody brings you a logo, you can problem solve that. Don't just deliver that logo. Figure out why they need that logo. What's wrong with their old logo? What's wrong with the industry? What's wrong with that? What. Why does the company even need a whole new logo? Right.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

There's all these key.

[B]

That's a problem. Right. Right there. Somebody approaches you to do a logo, they're having a problem of some sort of.

[A]

Shame on you if all you're doing. Exactly. It's just delivering.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So, I mean, they don't frame problems. Okay. Another thing we never see is they don't necessarily communicate the decisions that they're making. Okay. It's one thing to deliver something and give it. Give it to a customer. Be like, here, what do you think? It's another thing to Explain to them the decisions you made and why you made. There is a whole new level of respect when you can tell customers, you know, without a doubt the reason why you chose this color, this image, this format, this font. It's. And. And not just. And never about your personal feelings.

[B]

No.

[A]

But about. This hits your target market. This hits this, you know, data says this, you know, and again, going back to the problem solving. Right. You're explaining your decisions by explaining your decisions. All of a sudden it's like, you know, you've elevated your capabilities to another level.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. And almost. And customers are like, holy shit, they know what they're doing.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

They're not thinking that you're guessing anymore. Yeah. They're not comparing you to AI either.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. They are like, wow, this guy knows what he's doing. And I know that because he just didn't show me something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How many times. Okay. I have presented something that at first the customer was like, huh, Right. And it has happened. Absolutely. By the time I talk through.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Decisions, you know, it met the criteria that we all agreed on and why this will work by the end, they were in love.

[B]

Yeah. They're like, oh, I get it now.

[A]

Do you know what kind of that feels like? You have some sort of magic voodoo power to be able to make somebody switch on that kind of shit.

[B]

Yeah. And that magic, voodoo power is a good process.

[A]

Hell, yeah. Yes, it is. It's a process, and it's reminding them of this process. Right. You know, another thing that holds people back is that. Is that designers, often. They don't make the first move. Okay. If you don't make the first move, then clients are like, oh, okay, okay, I'll get it for you. Hold on. And. And, you know, I hate to say it, but the creative brief is. Is often that first move. Okay. Clients hate doing creative briefs, and they

[B]

don't like it, and that's why they

[A]

don't like it so shittily. And the. And. And the reality is, the reason why they don't like it is because it's just, like, you should know the problem.

[B]

Yes, exactly. Why do I explain to you should

[A]

know why I'm coming to you for this? Why do you want me to put it in writing?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. How many times here? And I'm like, no, no, we haven't gotten, you know, the creative yet from there. The creative brief. We don't know what they like. No, I know what they want. Yeah. This is what they want.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Let's go.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

We're getting Them ideas before they even gave us a creative brief. Right. And how many times does that get us? The credibility that all in a sudden we're now in charge, we're leading this. And we're leading it because. Okay, obviously this isn't going to happen with the first time client we've never dealt with.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. That is. Yeah.

[A]

But when we're dealing with customers on a regular basis, you know, they just have to like, just, Just breathe what it is they're looking for. We know it, we see it, we deliver it, and we have reasons why. If I tell you what I want.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What am I hiring? I'll tell. I will tell AI what I want

[B]

and see what it does and see how that works.

[A]

Okay. So again, that's not the point here, okay? And by us taking that leadership role, we're stepping in, we're doing this, we're taking charge, and there's a premium price for that.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Nothing wrong with that.

[B]

That's great. That's fine.

[A]

Yeah. And you know what? And I think the biggest thing that designers keep missing, we keep going back about this understanding the value thing. Okay. Value. You need to understand the value of what it is that you do. Okay. And people always think, well, you know, my logo is, you know, how much are they going to pay for, like, 2500 bucks?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Five grand, you know, 50 bucks.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I don't think that that's a real depiction of like, you know, if designers tie their value to the deliverable, their craft. Okay, you're right. It's only going to be tied to how many hours you've put ahead to it. Right. I. I put at this minute, I'll pat it, you know, and so it took me 20 hours. I'm going to be generous. Yeah, give me three grand, four grand, you know, whatever. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's not the value that designers deliver. And you know, again, if you do everything else that we talked about. Okay. The value is that much more. It's like, like, you know, people talk about the Paula Schur story.

[B]

I was just thinking that. Yes, right.

[A]

The whole City Bank. Right. Idea.

[B]

And what, did she come up with it on the way out the door?

[A]

No, I think it was like even on a napkin or.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The story. And this could be urban legend.

[B]

It could be.

[A]

I mean, some of it. I think she should.

[B]

Come on.

[A]

I know, right? We'll get it. Yeah. But you know, the thing is, it's like, you know, the story goes that she basically did it in a napkin and Says, here's your idea, you know, Give me a million dollars.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I'm gonna be a great graphic designer. So I'm going to get so good at what I do that it's like somebody's going to give me a million dollars for a logo. That's not how it works. Okay. So first off, the history prior to her. Okay. Is she's been doing this forever. She's really good at putting ideas together.

[B]

Very good.

[A]

Whether she got to that idea within five minutes versus, you know, five months. Yeah. It doesn't really matter, really. Okay. She went in already knowing what the problem was. The problem was that the two banks were merging and there had to be a solution to put. You, like, to put those two together. Right. She didn't just create the logo. Okay. She created the entire brand identity, how this was going to work. Right. She connected the two. She created brand positioning around it. Right. She then delivered on all the executables around it, how the, the place it wasn't just tied to the napkin.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. And again, this. But nobody ever, you know, graphic design lore doesn't ever talk about that, does it? Right. And so that was the whole thing. It was just like companies value outcomes, not the executable.

[B]

It doesn't matter how you get there.

[A]

No.

[B]

What you come up with.

[A]

So again, if, if, if AI actually scares people, if it really does, you know, I think that you're looking at this in the wrong way. I'm not talking about ethics, I'm not talking about right or wrong, how they got there. That has nothing to do with, with this. But if you are scared, if you're genuinely scared, okay, about the impact AI is going to have in your business, you're looking at this through the wrong lens, man, like you really are. Because again, you know, the fact that designers aren't going to break that 80, 80 grand mark has nothing to do with thinking about, you know, what you're delivering, what you're capable of doing, you know, because again, you can only do so much hands on. Right? But as soon as you start thinking, you know, different and start adding more value to the customer, you know, to their business, to even how you process the. This is how you can level up. And you, you want to make 100, you want to make 150, you want to make 250. Not selfish. Yeah. Okay. I'm a fan of all this kind of stuff. Okay. But the reality is there's more to it than just what you can deliver from you know, your hands. Right? I hope you guys got something out of this. And without hitting me in thinking I'm like, capitalist pig.

[B]

He's not. Trust me.

[A]

I do like my toys. But the reality is I want everybody to achieve whatever they want out of life, whether it's. It's personal fulfillment, professional fulfillment, you know, financial, both, whatever. And it is possible in this space. So many people are saying that, you know, graphic designers are dying. Designers are dying. The space is dying. I say, hell no. I say, you know what? We. We are the difference. And you know what? But listen to what we say. This is how we did it. And you guys can do this works. That's right.

[B]

Your plan worked.

[A]

Plan worked. All right, everybody, drop us a line on Instagram, on YouTube, you know, or on our website. Yes, other than that, my name is Massimo.

[B]

Check out our newsletter, too.

[A]

Oh, yeah, our newsletter, Anger does Anger management for design.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, a lot more of this just newsletter form, you know, every week, lower key type thing.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Okay.

[A]

Now, my name is Massimo. My name is Sean the creative.

[B]

SJ Green,

[A]

Ra.