Why Saul Bass Logos Last 35 Years and His 6 Logo Design Rules You’re Ignoring

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Angry Designer Episode Title: Why Saul Bass Logos Last 35 Years and His 6 Logo Design Rules You’re Ignoring
Release Date: January 21, 2025
Host/Author: A Graphic Design Podcast that cuts through industry bull to help frustrated Graphic Designers charge what they're worth and build creative careers

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Angry Designer, hosts Massimo and Sean delve into the enduring legacy of Saul Bass, a legendary graphic designer whose logos have stood the test of time for an average of 35 years. Massimo kicks off the discussion by highlighting the astonishing longevity of Bass's work compared to the average graphic designer's career lifespan.

Massimo [00:00]: "The average lifespan of his logos alone was 35 years, which is just mind-blowing."

Sean enthusiastically echoes this sentiment, setting the stage for an in-depth exploration of Bass's design philosophy.

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Saul Bass: A Design Pioneer

Massimo provides a comprehensive background on Saul Bass, emphasizing his roots in New York and his significant impact after relocating to Los Angeles in the mid-1950s. Initially renowned for his motion graphics and animated movie intros for classics like Psycho, Vertigo, and North by Northwest, Bass seamlessly transitioned into corporate branding, creating some of the most recognizable logos in the industry.

Massimo and Sean express their newfound appreciation for Bass's work, acknowledging that he deserves more recognition alongside other design titans like Paul Rand.

Sean [01:55]: "That is incredible."

Massimo [03:07]: "He is just as much a contender, you know, for the king of corporate identity."

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The Six Rules of Saul Bass Design Philosophy

The heart of the episode revolves around six key design rules derived from Saul Bass's methodology. Massimo meticulously outlines each rule, providing historical examples and practical applications for modern designers.

1. Start with a Strong Concept

Bass emphasized the importance of anchoring designs in a powerful, overarching idea rather than merely focusing on aesthetics.

Massimo [18:40]: "Start with a strong concept. Anchor the work that you create on a big idea."

Using AT&T's globe logo as an example, Bass created a symbol that represented global connectivity, aligning perfectly with the company's mission.

2. Make it Bold and Simple

Simplicity with purpose was a hallmark of Bass's designs. He advocated for stripping down to essentials while ensuring each element served a meaningful role.

Massimo [20:16]: "Make the image, make our ad, make our mark bold and simple."

The United Airlines tulip logo exemplifies this rule, capturing elegance and movement with minimal strokes.

3. Design Beyond the Brief

Bass didn't limit himself to the client's immediate requests. Instead, he sought to create cohesive visual languages that extended beyond individual assets, ensuring consistency across all brand touchpoints.

Massimo [23:14]: "Identify that story or that emotional hook and create a cohesive visual language around that material."

This approach prevents fragmentation and maintains a unified brand message across various platforms.

4. Think Beyond Just the Aesthetics

Bass viewed design as a strategic tool rather than just a means to make things look appealing. His logos communicated the brand's ethos and values, solving business communication problems.

Massimo [25:35]: "Great design doesn't just look good; it solves business communication problems."

By reframing client conversations to focus on achieving broader goals, Bass ensured his designs were both beautiful and functional.

5. Do Not Follow Trends, Follow Purpose

Instead of chasing fleeting design trends, Bass focused on the brand's core purpose and values, ensuring his work remained relevant and timeless.

Massimo [27:34]: "Find that meaningful connection, all of a sudden, the design endures time."

This principle is evident in logos like Kleenex and Girl Scouts, which have maintained their iconic status by staying true to their foundational meanings.

6. Be Memorable and Create a Connection

In a competitive landscape, Bass's ability to forge emotional connections through simple yet powerful designs made his logos unforgettable.

Massimo [30:41]: "Find the emotional connection again in that brand. See, it all goes back to finding purpose."

Logos such as United Way's hand holding a person under a rainbow and Girl Scouts' multi-generational imagery showcase this memorable connection.

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Applying Saul Bass's Principles Today

Massimo and Sean discuss the relevance of Bass's rules in the contemporary design landscape, especially with the rise of AI and the ever-increasing competition. They stress the importance of:

• Clarity and Simplicity: Cutting through the noise with straightforward, purposeful designs.
• Emotional Storytelling: Ensuring every design element resonates on a deeper level with the audience.
• Strategic Thinking: Moving beyond being mere "design order-takers" to becoming strategic partners in branding.

Massimo [35:49]: "We have to step back and see the bigger picture. We have to find that purpose, that connection that people are looking for."

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Conclusion

Massimo and Sean wrap up the episode by lauding Saul Bass's enduring influence and encouraging designers to study and apply his principles to achieve lasting success in their careers. They acknowledge Bass's somewhat underappreciated status and advocate for a renewed focus on his methodologies to navigate modern design challenges effectively.

Sean [39:06]: "This guy clearly went beyond the brief with this kind of stuff."

Massimo urges listeners to:

• Learn from History: Dive deep into the works of design legends like Bass.
• Apply Timeless Principles: Focus on concepts, simplicity, and emotional connections to create enduring designs.
• Stay Strategic: Embrace a holistic approach that aligns design efforts with broader business goals.

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Key Takeaways

1. Strong Concepts Lead to Longevity: Ground your designs in meaningful ideas that resonate with the brand's mission.
2. Simplicity with Purpose: Strip away unnecessary elements to create bold, impactful designs.
3. Holistic Design Approach: Go beyond client briefs to develop cohesive brand identities.
4. Strategic Over Aesthetic: Use design as a tool to solve business challenges and communicate core values.
5. Timeless Over Trendy: Focus on purpose-driven design to ensure longevity and relevance.
6. Emotional Connection: Create memorable designs that forge strong emotional bonds with the audience.

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Notable Quotes

• Massimo [00:00]: "The average lifespan of his logos alone was 35 years, which is just mind-blowing."
• Sean [01:55]: "That is incredible."
• Massimo [18:40]: "Start with a strong concept. Anchor the work that you create on a big idea."
• Massimo [25:35]: "Great design doesn't just look good; it solves business communication problems."
• Massimo [27:34]: "Find that meaningful connection, all of a sudden, the design endures time."

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Final Thoughts

This episode serves as a profound reminder of the timeless principles that underpin successful design. By embracing Saul Bass's six rules, modern graphic designers can create work that not only stands out in a crowded market but also endures for decades to come. Whether you're struggling with client expectations, chasing trends, or seeking to elevate your design approach, Bass's legacy offers invaluable guidance for building a rewarding and impactful creative career.

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Stay Connected:
Don't forget to sign up for the podcast's newsletter, Anger Management for Designers, to continue the conversation and gain further insights into building a creative career worth your worth. Visit their website, YouTube, or Instagram profiles to stay updated.

Hosts:
Massimo and Sean

Conclusion Music:
The episode concludes with an inspirational music outro, signaling the end of a thought-provoking discussion.

Transcript

[Massimo]

Most people. And when I mean most, I'm probably estimating 80 to 90% of graphic designers out there don't even have a career of 35 years. The average lifespan of this guy's logos alone were 35 years, which is just mind blowing. You're listening to the Angry Designer podcast, where we help frustrated graphic designers crush the industry. Bull. And what it takes to charge what you're worth and build badass, rewarding careers. Imagine if your average logo had a lifespan of 35 years. 35 years. That's not just good logo. That's a logo with staying power. And no one has mastered this like Saul Bass. Saul Bass wasn't just a graphic designer. He was a legend. And in this episode, we're breaking down the six rules of Saul Bass design philosophy. You're going to learn why simplicity, boldness. Boldness and meaning made his logos last decades longer than everybody else. How to create designs that go beyond aesthetics to actually solve business and branding problems. And the six rules that you need to apply Saul Bass's design magic to your everyday challenges. Don't forget to sign up for our newsletter, Anger Management for Designers, where we keep the conversation going and help you get what you deserve. Now, you can find that on. On our website, on our profile, in the YouTube, or on Instagra. So go sign up. All right, let's go. Imagine, okay, if your logos, the logos you created, had an average lifespan of 35 years.

[Sean]

35 years.

[Massimo]

Okay. That would fucking blow your mind.

[Sean]

That is incredible.

[Massimo]

And I heard that today. And I quickly went down a rabbit hole. Well, this is actually yesterday. I went down this rabbit hole, and it turns out Saul Bass. Okay. And again, I knew who Saul Bass was. Of course. We studied him back in school, and you keep hearing him come up, and he's super popular. But I mean, again, my, My. My favorites were always Paul Rand, you know, mass moving, you know, these are the ones I knew.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

And I never actually studied enough about Saul Bass and this fucking guy. The average lifespan of his logos, 35 years. In. In. In the wild, actually being out there, it's absolutely crazy.

[Sean]

And you know, the funny thing is, you're absolutely right. You get the two titans, the heavyweights.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Sean]

But saw Bass, I thought he was.

[Massimo]

A movie guy, so. Again. And I thought so, too.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Okay. I thought he was originally just a movie. Movie guy, whatever. Until I started seeing what Logo Logo did. I know, dude, we're going to talk about that. But this guy is a heavyweight, and I think he is just as much a contender, you Know, for the king of corporate id. If not. If not, probably could even be leading. Okay. As the corporate identity guy.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Massimo]

Okay. Which again shocks me to say, because I've always been a fan of Rand. Right. But. Okay, so let's, let's. Let's start off here. Okay, so let's start from the beginning. He's a New Yorker.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

New York. Well, at least that's where he was born. Okay. He was born and raised in New York. Okay. And he went to school there. Okay. So he did go to school in New York, but then he moved to la and that's where he spent most of his professional.

[Sean]

In la.

[Massimo]

In la. Okay, so this is where the movie ties came in. Okay. So now when he went to la, right, he founded Saul Bass and Associates. And this was like mid-50s. Okay. So we're talking about a legendary designer here from. From last century even. Okay. And, you know, so he. He founded. And basically he did a lot of print ads and posters. Right, because that was popular back then. That's what everybody was doing. Right. But I mean, his clients were actually pretty good. And then he got. I think one of his clients were Warner Brothers. Okay, well, definitely. That was a client.

[Sean]

That was a client for sure.

[Massimo]

I don't know if it was the client that. That got him the opportunity to do an intro for Alfred Hitchco, the Man with the Golden Arm. Okay. And so what he did is, you know, he got the opportunity to do something different. Up until that point, all movie intros were basically like just, you know, cue cards of names flashed on this.

[Sean]

On the actual curtain.

[Massimo]

Yes, yes. Yeah. Right. Like, hey, starring Sean and Moss and. And whoever. Right. And directed by. And it was just boring as shit.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Right. And so, you know, he took a whole design mentality, right? So he would have been like, you know, probably the motion graphics guy, if you really want to think about it. Right. If you really. Cuz because what he did is he took his graphic design and he combined it with animation and did this whole storytelling thing through the opening sequences, and they were mindblowing. Like, even if you see him today, right, like, look up, you know, some of his early stuff, like what he did with Alfred Hitchcock and then later on what he did with Scorsese. Right. Like, it was just. It was. It still stands today as a beautiful piece of. Of graphic design. Just everything about a. But it was animated.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Massimo]

Okay. So this, like, totally propelled him into this whole new world, Right, because he was able to do this. This storytelling, you know, that. That wasn't up until that point was just missed opportunities. And you know, what a way to intro a movie, right? Because it really tied people in before the freaking movie even started. And watching these, it was really cool because even if you took off the music, it still you engage.

[Sean]

Awesome. Yeah, exactly.

[Massimo]

Right. Like the one for Psycho.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Oh, it's pretty fun, actually. All of them were really, really, really, really good. Right. So then he did, you know, obviously, the man with the Golden Arm. He did Vertigo, north by Northwest.

[Sean]

Oh, yes. Goes up into the building.

[Massimo]

Right. And. And yeah, and that was actually looks so much more modern.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Than it actually was.

[Sean]

Than it was.

[Massimo]

And then again, the classic Psycho, right?

[Sean]

Oh, yes.

[Massimo]

So the original Psycho. And that one is still creepy as, like, when you're watching that opening sequence, it. It just. Even though it was all just lines and words, that coupled with the music just creeped really out.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah.

[Massimo]

So you were already creeped out before even watching the damn movie, right? Before even getting into it. So. So this. This propelled him into this whole new world and he started getting a real huge, big name for himself. Yeah, okay. But you know what? And I mean, so that was like, you know, like 50s. All the 50s, right. Come 1960s, 65, 70. 75, 80, the dude then all of a sudden took his storytelling, know, online and he applied that to branding. So this was how, you know, all his mentality, the way he spoke about, you know, these animated intros, the early motion graphics and that term was even around back.

[Sean]

No, certainly not.

[Massimo]

He took that, that ideology, the mentality, and put it, you know, towards brands. Right. This whole storytelling concept. Right. And it really. Learning about this really kind of made me appreciate because I was always like, you know, your logo shouldn't tell, you know, every story.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Massimo]

But yeah, he. He had a really, really big point. He. His mission was always to give the logo purpose, to give it more of a story. And then thinking back to a lot of the people we talked about, the way Alan Peters does his logos and James Burner, even cj, you know, colleagues like his, you know, the. The film.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah.

[Massimo]

The film he's filming with the donkey beach.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah.

[Massimo]

What a great story. Right? So between Pickled Pig. Right.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah.

[Massimo]

So between 1960 and 1980, Saul Bass all this story, you know, the storytelling idea, and put it towards branding. Right? And this is where he started creating these really bold, simple, you know, corporate identities, these brands. Right. The brand identities. And it's just. It just he was able to create these emotional connections between the marks.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

And the company yes. And I was just like, okay, come on, you know, what is he talking about? But then I saw what they were, right? And we're talking. Okay, yeah, that. And did I give you this? I didn't give you this.

[Sean]

No, I didn't.

[Massimo]

Look at that.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

These. Look, look at some of these names. Okay, so we're talking about, like, Dixie Cups.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Massimo]

Continental Airlines. Okay. AT T, the Quaker Oats guy, the Girl Scouts logos. Right? Warner Communications, United Airlines, United Way. Minolta.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Att. Right. Kleenex.

[Sean]

Kleenex.

[Massimo]

Kleenex.

[Sean]

That's brilliant.

[Massimo]

Do you see what I mean? And the thing is, it's like, you know, the average lifespan of all of his logos combined was three and a half decades. Okay? Most people, and when I mean most, I'm probably estimating 80 to 90% of graphic designers out there don't even have a career of 35 years. The average lifespan of this guy's logos alone were 35 years, which is just mind blowing. Right.

[Sean]

But you could see why.

[Massimo]

Well, I mean, absolutely. You can see why. Right.

[Sean]

Reaction of that United Airlines. I mean, that is just.

[Massimo]

Right. The tulip. Everybody knows this logo, right? And that's what it was. Right. Or the funny thing is NCR used to be a big company here in Waterloo, remember?

[Sean]

Oh, yeah.

[Massimo]

And that logo hasn't changed.

[Sean]

It's the same one.

[Massimo]

It's the same logo. Which is crazy. I grew up seeing that logo, and I never understood what they did, but I always remembered that logo. And I mean, is beautiful.

[Sean]

Yeah. And 1818 T still uses that, too, right?

[Massimo]

Absolutely. Well, I mean, again, it's, you can see it evolved a little bit.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Massimo]

But here's the funny thing. Okay? So you want to talk about, you know, duration. Right. He did the AT T Corporation 1969. Okay. And then, look, he updated it like three decades later. Like, there's, you know, what you're doing if you're the guy they keep calling on over and over and over. Right? So it's like, you know, it made me kind of dig a little deeper and I watched videos and they started coming up with lists and stuff. Right. But why his logos endured as long as they did. Okay, so, you know, why sell by? So, you know, you know, number one, there was simplicity, these logos, but there was meaning behind the simplicity. Yes, Right. He would strip them down to just the essentials. Okay. Which we always talk about. But, you know, he was very, very, you know, careful about making the essential items purposeful, which I thought. Right. He definitely didn't touch trends. Right. And, you know, he focused on just the universal appeal of each one of these icons. Right. You know, the communication. Clear. Always very, very clear. Every logo had a story that was tied to the brain's mission in one way or another. Right. And it was easy to interpret. Right. And make it memorable.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Massimo]

Okay, so again, he. Very, very clear. Right. For the time, these were incredibly scalable.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Massimo]

Okay. So this was, you know, he was already doing, you know, like, they were able to be on print.

[Sean]

This is a flavicon. Right, Right, right. Like, yeah. Or it's true.

[Massimo]

Right. But I mean, again, this was. Even prior to all this. Right. This stuff worked on small pens, it worked on glasses, it worked on billboards. It was print and. And whatever kind of digital that they had back then. Right. But they were. They were designed to adapt even before adaptation was even a thing. You know, creating responsive logos.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Okay. So again, it's crazy, but it's true. Right. You're talking about a Favicon for a 1963 logo, Sean.

[Sean]

I know, I know. Right. But this is the thing. You're right. He's way ahead of the game.

[Massimo]

Way ahead of the game.

[Sean]

He created motion graphics, and now he's doing stuff for the web.

[Massimo]

Right. He.

[Sean]

He.

[Massimo]

He would create this emotional connection.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Massimo]

Between these logos and the people. Right. You know, you'd look at these, and then if you knew the brands, you'd automatically, you know, start creating this feeling, this emotional connection to the brand. I mean, look at the Girl Scout logo.

[Sean]

Yes. That's so nice. It's forward.

[Massimo]

There's motion to it, and it's like, you know, girl. You know, helping girl.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Massimo]

Help me. Like, I mean, you can see generations of people within that logo. Right.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Massimo]

And again, you don't realize that, you know, we take it for granted, the beauty and simplicity in that Girl Scouts logo. Yeah. So again, you know, he would use. In situations like this, he would create this symbolism that would allow you to, like, you know, it stayed relevant throughout the whole lifespan of these logos. And again, that Girl Scouts logo is still virtually identical today.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Change the position of how it lays up with the fonts.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

But the mark is still. Same with the Quaker Oats guy.

[Sean]

Quaker Oats guy. That's, like, ridiculous. Exactly.

[Massimo]

So he would. He would. He would, you know, really try to focus in on this emotional connection.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Okay. With these logos, you know, again, collaborative approach in the sense of, you know, he wouldn't just stop at the brief. He wanted to find out more about the company. He would go deep into their Roots. He would go deep into the, you know, the brand, their business, their mission, their. Like, he would, he would work with the company to get this really deep understanding on the company's vision, their goals. Right. And their outcomes, which is why every single one of these connect like they do. So it was a very collaborative approach, you know, for the time, because he wanted to make sure that everything he created was strategically aligned with the company. Not just cool looking or pretty. Right. Which, you know, again, how many people these days can actually say this is the thing?

[Sean]

Yeah, Like I was doing, I was kind of digging down in the Alcoa logo. The original one had two triangles upside down, one one up and one red, one up and one blue, one down. And if you look at that, he's got that in there.

[Massimo]

He does, right there.

[Sean]

And then he makes it into an.

[Massimo]

A fucking letter A.

[Sean]

It's just like. So you're, you're paying homage to the original.

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Sean]

And keeping that kind of that inside in people's heads.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Sean]

And then creating that, it's like, it's.

[Massimo]

Like he, he was, he was embracing that logo evolution.

[Sean]

Exactly.

[Massimo]

All of these. Right. No reason to start from scratch. He just took it from there.

[Sean]

This guy is a. He was from the future, baby.

[Massimo]

He was from the future. Seriously. Right.

[Sean]

Really? Was he.

[Massimo]

When he built these, he was always building them for longevity. Right. He again, avoided very forward thinking, thinking in all of his concepts, avoided, you know, design trends, dated styles. Right. And he made sure everything, you know, was geometrically balanced in all these logos. Right. Like if you look at them, nothing feels off centered on any of these. Like, they're just beautiful. And you know what, when there was the opportunity, he would, he would kind of strategically align them, make sure there was like a relevance to them. If there's a cultural relevance to these. Right. So again. And it goes back to aligning with the company's growth, their evolution. Right. So again, this is the kind of shit that allows these logos which we're looking at, which date back as, as old as 1959 to as well, sadly as as much 1996. Yeah, they stopped then because that's when the sort of guy passed away. Right. But again, it's just, it's. It's just three, four decades of work. And to think that a lot of these logos are still in existence.

[Sean]

They're still going. Kleenex is still exist, United Way, Dixie. I think even Avery too.

[Massimo]

Yeah. I mean, again, that's the Avery mark that I've always remembered exactly.

[Sean]

What is it like three Paperclips.

[Massimo]

The three paper clips. Right again.

[Sean]

Brilliant.

[Massimo]

Brilliant. Okay, into the letter A.

[Sean]

Into the A.

[Massimo]

Come on. This, you know, I, I. So again, I was blown away because I've recognized so many of these logos. And I was blown away that I never gave this guy the attention that I was just like mind blown.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

So again, you know, I'm sorry. You know, Paul, Massimo, you guys got some competition because Salt ass. Wow.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah, you're right. It's true. Like I have not given this guy enough attention, credit or, or even research like.

[Massimo]

Exactly.

[Sean]

I should be looking at this stuff.

[Massimo]

When there was, there was so much brilliance in what he did. And you know, and again. And it was very different. Wow, that's a great shirt. Sorry guys. Sean has got a hell of a T shirt on and I just made it. There was, there was so much brilliance in the way he thought how we approach this, you know. And again. And a lot of it contradicts what we're saying today. Because, you know, one of the things I always talk about is, is, you know, try not to make a logo tell, you know, your whole story.

[Sean]

Right.

[Massimo]

But in his approach, make sure it tells the most important story.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Massimo]

Right. Which again was just like, wow. And that's what makes difference between a logo that, you know, lasts for 10 years. We talk about 10, 15, you know, 20. I think it's be a home.

[Sean]

20 would be great.

[Massimo]

This guy's creating that's lasted on average for 35 years. So it mind blowing. So. Wow. So, so, so what I thought I would do and what I would try to do is, is I would from being the videos from, you know, like researching, you know, and I've been all about Saul Bass in the past two days right now, okay, Is. I, I kind of had come together with six rules, okay. To apply his methodology to our modern day issues. Because, you know, unfortunately, you know, he did pass away in 96Y. Right. That's almost like, well, shit like 20 years. No, 30 years ago almost. Right? Almost 30 years ago.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Why was that so hard to compute? Anytime you're jumping a century, it really messes you up.

[Sean]

Yeah, it does.

[Massimo]

But seriously, you know, guy died almost 30 years ago and you know, he never would have seen the shit that we have to see. He never had to deal with social, never had to deal with web, never had to deal with, you know, the different mediums or the pace that shit's happening. But I think all of these rules apply. Perfect.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Massimo]

To what we have to go through today. So that was the idea. So, again, they weren't written by him, but, you know, but. But they are how he approached logo design. Okay. Not. Not his. Not his motion design, his logo. Okay. He believed in clarity, bold simplicity, emotional connection. And, you know, these are values that I'm gonna try to see if we can make connect to today's, you know, examples that we can all kind of look. Right? So let's give this a shot. Let's give this a shot. Right? So, you know, like, rule number one.

[Sean]

Yep.

[Massimo]

Okay. Start with a strong concept. Okay. And again, the everyday challenge we get is clients often focus on the look of something and not on the idea of it. Right? They always want something cool, something hip, but they don't know what cool and hip means when it comes to their brand. Right? So how do we take this and apply his. You know, start with a strong concept rule. Anchor the work that you create on a big idea. Okay. Like, for example, his AT&T logo, it wasn't just a globe. Okay. It symbolized global connectivity.

[Sean]

Right.

[Massimo]

Okay. And then it was perfectly aligned with their brand. So how the hell could they say no to that? Okay. Because it wasn't just a globe with line.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Okay. It was so much bigger than that. Okay? So, you know, when. When you're in a situation like this, so don't start with the visuals.

[Sean]

Right?

[Massimo]

Okay. And that's what I implore you. Right? Don't start with the visuals. Start with the meaning that you actually want to, you know, to go for. Right? Dig deep. Ask the clients, you know, why does this matter to your audience? What do you matter to your audience? Why do they give a. About your brand? Right. Once you uncover that core idea, then you start building everything else around it. So we're not just talking about history. We're talking about the why. Okay. The core purpose. Right? So then this way, don't pitch your design.

[Sean]

Right.

[Massimo]

Okay. Pitch your concept. Pitch the purpose of what you're shooting for. So now we're so much bigger.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Than just the look and the design.

[Sean]

Right.

[Massimo]

Massive.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Massimo]

That's huge. I think that's a huge thing.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Okay. And again, now going back to all of his logos. Like, look at that United Way logo.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Massimo]

The purpose. Look at the Girl Scouts.

[Sean]

The Girl Scouts purpose. Exactly.

[Massimo]

Behind this. Right, Exactly. So that's rule number one.

[Sean]

Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful.

[Massimo]

Rule number two, make it bold. Make it simple. Okay? So the everyday challenge, of course, that, you know, graphic designers get is that, you know, a customer makes their design so cluttered because they want everything in There. Okay. They want way too much information in one place. Okay, so how do we apply this? Right? Make the image, make our ad, make our mark bold and simple. So going back to, you know, his United Airlines tulip logo, okay. It captured all the elegance that United Airlines was trying to portray. Right? And it did movement in just a couple strokes.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Massimo]

Okay. So elegance and movement, all because of that just that slight, you know, just.

[Sean]

That skew to it.

[Massimo]

Right? So again, that's the kind of clarity you want to emulate, and you want to hit them over the head with it. So the action, of course, is if a customer wants you to add this and add that and add a story about a duck and the history of this and that. Right. It's okay to push back a little bit. Okay, here comes that duck example again.

[Sean]

I love it. The duck.

[Massimo]

So push back gently, because that's our job. They don't generally hire us to be yes people. They want us to think. Think outside the box and challenge when we can. So push back a little bit. Right. And explain that it's the simplicity that actually creates the impact that everybody has. Okay, so you ask, what's the one thing we want people to take away from this? The one thing. So this goes back to rule number one. The purpose.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Massimo]

Okay.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

So again, grab that purpose. Make it bold, make it simple, and explain to them that it's that one takeaway. We need to focus.

[Sean]

Right.

[Massimo]

Not 20. Okay? So that's what we do. So that's number two. Make it bold and simple.

[Sean]

Nice.

[Massimo]

Rule number three, design. Rule number three, design beyond the brief. Okay, so again, the everyday challenge that graphic designers have to face is modern brands require designs that work across multiple touch points. We know this. Right? This is the whole rule that we have, right? Social media, ads, ads, websites, packaging, motion graphics. Right. But the message often becomes fragmented. It becomes inconsistent across all these messages, often because the. The corporation has different people working on different parts, and they don't often connect. Right. They're not talking to each other like they should.

[Sean]

Not everybody's on the same page.

[Massimo]

Exactly. Right. So how do you apply this design beyond the brief? Okay. Identify that story or that emotional hook that he was always really good at doing. Right. And find out what that emotional hook is behind the product, behind the brand, and, you know, why people care. Okay. Then you create a cohesive visual language around that material.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Okay. So this is kind of in context of creating that brand identity outside of just the logo itself. Okay. So if you use consistent typography, color schemes, the design elements across all the apps assets and pitch that to them as a full, big, cohesive package. Right. So don't just complete the requested assets that they want. Right. I just want a logo. Just create me the logo. Right. Go in and build something bigger. Suggest, you know, all the additional pieces, you know, social media templates, even if they want to do it themselves, a look and a feel, landing page design, if that's what they want. Right. Grow this outside of the one ask. Right. Because again, you know, this is, this is basically your opportunity to sell the bigger picture.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Massimo]

The bigger story, the brand, not just that one little piece that you've been asked to do.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

And a lot of times customers don't realize that they think a new logo is the answer. And the reality is you need much more than that.

[Sean]

Yes. Yes, this is true. Yeah. It's not necessarily the be all and end all to your problems.

[Massimo]

Absolutely. Right. I mean, again, what good is a new logo going to be if every, every place it shows up looks different?

[Sean]

Exactly. Yes. Or you, your story's all up and nobody's, nobody's, you know, working together.

[Massimo]

Nobody's working together.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Oh, such a huge problem. Big money maker for this company, let me tell you.

[Sean]

Big time.

[Massimo]

All right. Rule number four. Okay. Think beyond just the aesthetics. Okay. So our everyday challenge that we get is, you know, we're often seen as just order takers. Okay. Depending on, On, on, on who's asking us. Literally, they're just, they just think that we make things look pretty. Okay. And they sideline, you know, they sideline the strategic input that we have because oftentimes they dumb down what we do to just people who make things look good. Hate that. Right. So, you know, it's, you know, what if they ask you that, you know, to redesign a brochure because their business is failing? You know, it's not that brochure.

[Sean]

There's a problem.

[Massimo]

It's not. Right. And just like the website people are like, I need, I need a new website because, you know, our old one isn't working. And it's like, dude, it's not the website's not the problem. It's the fact that your whole company message is fragmented. Right. Again, see rule number three. Right? So, you know, in this case, you know, you know, the problem is in the brochure. Right? But it's, it's, it's the messaging behind it. It's the brand. It's every, it's all the other pieces in there. Right? So you. How to apply this kind of Idea, the think beyond aesthetics. Well, when Saul Bass showed, you know, that great design doesn't just. Just look good, it solves business communication problems. Right. His logos communicated more than just something that looked pretty. They communicated the brand's ethos. Okay?

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

It communicated their values. It wasn't just there to look good on the side of a plane or, or, you know, on a TV or at the front of a movie. Right?

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

So when you have the opportunity, okay, you need to reframe the conversation. And instead of asking the customer, what do you want designed? Okay. You should be asking the customer, what are we trying to achieve? Okay. So if the solution isn't, oh, I just need a design brochure, I need an asset or whatever. Right. Say it. Call a mode on it. Right? Yeah, it's. That's our job to do that. Okay. Offer alternatives, alternative ideas that fix the core issue. Whether it's. It's messaging, whether it's strategy, whether it's, you know, the storytelling. Right. Always tie your suggestions back to the brand's value, their purpose. So this full circle. Right. Everything that he has ever done has always been the storytelling component about this. And I've never really realized the importance of it until digging deep in this guy.

[Sean]

Until this.

[Massimo]

Right. So again, always tie back your suggestions to the. Back to the brand values. Okay? So this is how you make sure that you need to think beyond the aesthetics. Okay? So that's number four.

[Sean]

Nice.

[Massimo]

Rule number five, obviously, do not follow trends, follow purpose. Right? Okay. And that's the big part. That's the difference, right? So the everyday challenge that we get, it's tempting to just jump and follow or chase an Instagram worthy trend just to please the client, make them happy. Right. Make them stand out. Right. You know, they insist on, oh, I've seen this new glitch neon effect, and I want to use it in our campaign because it's cool. It's hip right now.

[Sean]

It's so hot right now.

[Massimo]

Problem is it doesn't suit their brand. No, right. It totally doesn't. And they don't realize that. They don't know. They don't care. They're thinking in the here now. You know what they're thinking? Yeah, I'm in this brand every day and it's boring.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

But you know what I mean, they're in it every day. Of course they're going to get fucking and bored of it.

[Sean]

Exactly.

[Massimo]

Okay. That's not the reality. You need to basically. Okay. How to apply this idea to them. Right. You need to follow the Purpose behind their brand. Okay, so Bass's timeless logos, the Girl Scouts, Kleenex, United Way. Right? They avoided trends altogether. Okay. They focused on the meaning that the meaningful design. You know, they focused on the. Sorry. They focused on the purpose through the meaning and made the design meaningful.

[Sean]

Yeah, blah.

[Massimo]

Buffalo Trace is really kicking me in a lot quicker. Right. Jeez. But I mean, the reality is by finding that meaningful connection, all of a sudden, the design endures time. It just lasts. It keeps going. Right. Because you're now following the purpose of the company, the purpose of the brand. Okay? So, you know, the action to take here is you want to anchor your design decisions in the brand's core values. If you have that opportunity, that. That opportunity. So. So when a client pushes for trendy aesthetics, right, this is your opportunity to ask them, does this trend reflect who you are as a company? Does it reflect your brand and where you're going? Okay. Because they need to realize that the brand is bigger than the trend that they want to jump on. Okay. Regardless.

[Sean]

And. And again, the thing with, you know, to a great argument to that is just in the name a trend. It's not going to last. Exactly. Why would anybody. Why would anyone want this?

[Massimo]

I know, I know. Exactly.

[Sean]

Do you want something that's. That. Do you want to call me two years from now when this trend is over and you want something else?

[Massimo]

Yeah, exactly. A new trend. Absolutely.

[Sean]

You want something that's going to last.

[Massimo]

For 35 years, five years. And by the way, I mean, I think two years is way too generous.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Massimo]

Last year, I think I saw three different trends on social media in 2024. And it's just, man, you know, tiring. It would be, you know, our posts look the same. None of them follow trends and love them or hate them. They. They have looked the same all 200 episodes. Okay. So, right. You know, it's. There's something bigger than jumping on a trend. This is true. And this is where you need to, you know, follow the purpose behind this.

[Sean]

No lapel mics for us.

[Massimo]

No lapel mics with a little fuzzy air thing there. Right. None of that. And rule number six, again, kind of goes into full circle. Be memorable and create a connection. So the. The everyday challenge graphic diners designers have is in all this competition, this giant pool of competition, creating designs that stand out is getting harder and harder to do. It is straight up. And the fact that, you know, AI is going to be creating these now at twice the speed and the whole is going to be so much damn noise out there. We need to stand out. So how to apply this idea to what we do? Right. We need to find the emotional connection again in that brand. See, it all goes back to finding purpose, telling the story and making that connection. Okay. His iconic Girl Scouts posters and the United Airlines logos, they were. Were memorable because of their simplicity and because of the emotional connection that they made with the brand and that brand made with the consumer.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Okay. More so than anything else, that Girl Scouts logo and that United Way one. I mean, the United Way, you know, the hand. Hand holding the little person and the rainbow. Right. And the Girl Scouts. Right. Like the, you know, the older Girl Scout helping the next generation, which then.

[Sean]

Goes to the next.

[Massimo]

Next generation. That connection is critical, dude. Right?

[Sean]

Is that. Which, is that what you were getting under that? Because I always thought it was like an inclusive. Inclusive kind of thing, like a, you know, all races, kind of like the.

[Massimo]

Oh, well, you know what I mean? I don't know if that's the way it would have been in 1978, but again, this is kind of the way Black, white. That's kind of funny. But you're right.

[Sean]

This is kind of the beauty of it.

[Massimo]

Right, Fair enough.

[Sean]

You can. You. It tells such a great story. There's so much, Much in there.

[Massimo]

So, you know, so again, it creates that connection with the person, the viewer. So that's. That's how you took it. Which is amazing.

[Sean]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Massimo]

I don't know whether that's right. No, no. And. And the reason, the way I. The reason I took it as three generations.

[Sean]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Massimo]

I had, you know, three of my daughters whirling and brownies and, and. And there was three generations that. The one, One of their, One of their, Their leaders. Yeah, it was the grandmother.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

And her daughter also worked there with them. She was a leader.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

And. And her granddaughter was in the same class as my kid.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Massimo]

So I was there and I saw three.

[Sean]

Three generations.

[Massimo]

Generations.

[Sean]

And that's exactly what that is. And that's the beauty of that.

[Massimo]

Exactly. Right.

[Sean]

I never, I never picked that out of that, but yeah.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Sean]

I mean, this is kind of crazy though.

[Massimo]

Right?

[Sean]

And again, too, to point out how good this guy is. He's got three different airlines here with three very distinctive looks.

[Massimo]

Yes. Not a. And none of them are so. Wings.

[Sean]

None of them have wings. They're. They're very action oriented. Right. But it's exactly like you said. It's like he went in there to each of these three places, saw the culture or figured out what it is.

[Massimo]

What made them what made this.

[Sean]

This airline different from this airline?

[Massimo]

Right, Absolutely.

[Sean]

And this is why you have three distinctly different logos.

[Massimo]

Right? So. And again, imagine again, none of these airlines were like, oh, wait, you did our competition. I don't want to work with you. And this is back in the heyday of people doing that.

[Sean]

It was huge.

[Massimo]

They were huge, and they were competitive.

[Sean]

And cut. Yes.

[Massimo]

And you'd think that back then, they're like, oh, it. You worked with the competition.

[Sean]

I don't want somebody else.

[Massimo]

I want to beat them. No, no, no. He was able to position every one of these. That's incredible. Yeah, it is incredible. Right?

[Sean]

Amazing.

[Massimo]

Like, so he was. He was able to identify and create that connection with each. Thank you, sir. With each one of them. So. So, you know, when it comes to. To having to do this for your brand, right. For your customer, you want to create that connection. Just, again, going back to identifying that one emotional element that connects the audience to your brand. Okay. And when you find that connection, you make it the hero of your design. Okay. You strip away. You strip away everything else. Everything else that's unnecessary until that connection is front and center.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Massimo]

Okay. And then that's, you know, test it while you're at it. Okay. Test it out. Just by saying, will this design stick in someone's mind at a simple glance? Okay. Boom. Will it be memorable? Will they understand? Will. Will. Will it make that connection?

[Sean]

Yes.

[Massimo]

So. So six things. Start with a strong concept. Make it bold. Make it simple. Design beyond the brief. Think beyond aesthetics. Don't follow trends. Follow purpose, and be memorable and create a connection. So this. The reason why this is absolutely brilliant now. Okay. Is because graphic designers are trying to find ways to stay ahead of technology, stay ahead of the competition, stay ahead of AI for that matter. Okay. And, you know. Yeah, we keep saying, you know, you got to be bigger, you got to be broader, you got to think, you know, higher level. Well, this is a perfect example to think. You have to forget that. That, you know, don't even think about the fact that you're being hired to make something look good. Okay. That's the. That's the end result.

[Sean]

That's a nice to have.

[Massimo]

Exactly. That's. That's the final step of what we do. But the reality is, you know, we have to step back and see the bigger picture. We have to find, you know, that. That purpose, that connection that, you know, people are looking for, and we have to, you know, dig deep in the company and make them realize the importance of it. And then. Then we translate that to the actual logo, the mark, everything else afterwards. So we're not just there to make things look good. We need to find that business connection. So. So I think that's why, you know, his work here has lasted as long as it has, because it does. It follows all these rules.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

And I hate to say it, but better than almost anybody else out there. I, I mean, again, it's just, I was blown away.

[Sean]

This is, going through this, this is absolutely crazy. I, I, Some of these things, some of these logos I've never seen before.

[Massimo]

Well, not in this context. Right.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Well, fair, fair.

[Sean]

You know what I mean? I mean, Quaker.

[Massimo]

Yep.

[Sean]

I've seen that dozens and dozens of times, but never put this together. That this was a Saul Bass. Exactly.

[Massimo]

You know, that's them. Because again, that Quaker Oats felt like it's been around forever, hasn't changed. And it has been around forever. It has, it hasn't changed and it has changed. It's been around 50 fucking years.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Massimo]

And it's still that guy.

[Sean]

And look at how good it is. It's so good, right? Yes, it really is. At&t. Like the, when they, when they broke apart. Bell.

[Massimo]

Yep, exactly.

[Sean]

He put the bell in there.

[Massimo]

He still did. Right? Mind blowing.

[Sean]

That's awesome.

[Massimo]

Right?

[Sean]

This is crazy. This is absolutely crazy stuff. But, yeah, I mean, wow, this is this guy. And you know, another thing, I was reading up on him too. He kind of backed into font design. He was a huge font designer.

[Massimo]

Really?

[Sean]

Yes.

[Massimo]

So.

[Sean]

Because he went into Alcoa and he.

[Massimo]

Created a whole font for that, for the brand itself. Well, I know he did a lot of really crazy font stuff in his poster work, in his post work.

[Sean]

And I think that's kind of where it was like, people were like, I love that font. And he was like, okay, I guess I should expand on that and create a font out of whatever this movie.

[Massimo]

Right, right, right. So that would explain a lot.

[Sean]

How awesome is that?

[Massimo]

It's like, it's like, you know what? He took his methodology that he learned from being, you know, early stage motion graphics guy.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

And then he applied that in every other aspect. Storytelling, sharing the visuals, staring, sharing, sharing the fonts. It's just there was so much brilliance behind what he did. Yeah. I don't, I, and again, I could be completely wrong in saying this, but I don't think he gets the credit that he does because he's not the number one name that comes to mind. But after reading and researching, he is, hands down, one of the big guys, One of the Legendary. Great graphic designers.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

North American graphic designers for sure that ever existed, so.

[Sean]

Sure. Yeah.

[Massimo]

You know what I think? I think we'll be talking a lot more about Saw Bass in the future. I'll be looking.

[Sean]

I know I'm going to do some. Some more. More of a deep dive on this.

[Massimo]

And again, you know, maybe the motion graphics people are really, you know, like, maybe they're all in on someone like this. You know, I'm kind of, you know, shocked that I just. It took me this long to figure it out.

[Sean]

Figure this out. I know. It's absolutely crazy.

[Massimo]

You know what? So when you guys are ever stuck. Stuck in some sort of design rut. Right. Ask yourself, what would Sal Bass do? Right. You know, honestly, chances are he'd simplify.

[Sean]

Yep.

[Massimo]

You know, he would, you know, clarify, and he would ask, what is the connection? Right. And. And those are the things that maybe you need to revisit when you're, you know, looking at your projects. Right. Can this make that connection? You know, can we simplify this? And. And can we, you know, know, make it, you know, as clear as day what it is? So you're right.

[Sean]

This guy clearly went beyond the brief with this kind of stuff.

[Massimo]

Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Sean]

He's digging far deeper than.

[Massimo]

So deep.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

That's why these logos have as long as they have.

[Sean]

Yeah. Continental. Like, if you look at that.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Sean]

How does that just even.

[Massimo]

United Airlines, dude. Like, is it crazy or Avery again, Avery. Just the beauty.

[Sean]

Wow.

[Massimo]

Dissect how simple that is.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

And it's just the brilliance behind it.

[Sean]

I wonder how he worked. Like, just, like, drawings, like, sketching. So did he present one logo?

[Massimo]

I don't know about that. I don't know about the logo, but the one. The one interview I watched him say, he's like, what is the advice that he would give to young designers? And you know what he said?

[Sean]

What'd he say?

[Massimo]

He says, learn how to draw. Oh. That was his advice. And he said, you know, as a young designer, learn how to draw. He said, because this industry, you can go very, very far without learning how to draw. But by the time you realize why it's important to know how to draw, it's too late, because he's like, you're already in it. You got customers, you're working. It is hilarious. So he was like, focus on the drawing. Like, learn how to do it. I thought that was hilarious.

[Sean]

I hate him already.

[Massimo]

Well, geez, you know what? I hope you guys got something out of this one, because, honestly, I think I. This is Someone new that I just want to keep learning more about for me. And I feel really bad for saying this because I know. Huge believer in, you know, going back to history and learning about the grades to figure out my future.

[Sean]

Yeah. Someone new who died in 1996.

[Massimo]

Yeah. Right. It's just terrible level.

[Sean]

This is a shameful episode for me.

[Massimo]

I know, right? In some ways it is. It is.

[Sean]

Sorry.

[Massimo]

I think I'm gonna make a little bit more effort this year to actually dig deeper on some of these older. The other ones.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Well, and again. Because again, I've touched many of them even around the world and such. But it's like, you know, we need to pay a little bit more homage to some of these guys. Totally. And this guy is so legendary that I think. I don't think he's gotten the credit. He's. And maybe he has, but, you know, people keep going on about corporate ID legends.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

I don't hear Sal bats.

[Sean]

I don't hear that either. He's.

[Massimo]

But look at this.

[Sean]

I think he kind of maybe fucked himself by being such a. Being the very first motion designer because.

[Massimo]

People really knew him for his motion work. Look at this.

[Sean]

But this is the kind of stuff where you're like. And what's the timeline with this? You said it was like the 60s, dude. He was doing this.

[Massimo]

He started from the 60s and did it basically. Look at. And T. 96.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

NCR 1996.

[Sean]

So. Yeah, so he was doing the shit up right up till he.

[Massimo]

He was dying right up until he died. Right. 75. He died. And you know, and again, it's just. It's just proof that this is something that you can do your whole life and still look and still be just as good, you know? And when you're, you know, doing this in. In your golden years as you are in your young days. So.

[Sean]

Wow.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Sean]

That's inspiration. Yeah, right there.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Right, dude.

[Massimo]

Like, some of these look like some of these. 1959. The Lowry Foods one. Right. Fuller Pains, 1962. Right. But you're Alcoa. Brilliant. 1963. Yeah. Yeah.

[Sean]

Cool.

[Massimo]

Awesome. All right, everybody go find out about Saul Bass. You know, learn more. You know, apply his methodology. Apply the. That connection piece, you know, of. Of how he really obsessed over that connection. The importance of the storytelling for the brand, you know, apply that to your work. Apply that to the way you're approaching your next project. And honestly, strive for that 35 year logo, cuz.

[Sean]

Strive for 35.

[Massimo]

Mind blowing.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Massimo]

Mind blowing.

[Sean]

Yes. Oh my God. Totally.

[Massimo]

All right?

[Sean]

Yes.

[Massimo]

My name is Massimo My name is Sean. Stay creative and stay angry.

[Unknown]

To be the greatest everybody on the fake I look around and feel like everybody is the fake is I make this every day and I'm impatient hoping one day I blow up from the basement statement the top is so vacant I don't hear that I think is amazing waiting for my day when I'm playing sold out shows a thousand faces hey give me that crown get in my way and to be put down it ain't your place all this my town if I want that then I'll get it right now I'm losing it the noose if it's some loose a stupid myth you choose to live or choose to die you choose to fight or lose your grip and lose a gift oh.

[Massimo]

I feel like I'm losing my mind everybody in the world d please lord give me a sign a sign.