Fitting In Is the Enemy of Excellence (with Anne Morriss & Frances Frei)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Anxious Achiever

Episode: "Fitting In Is the Enemy of Excellence"

Guests: Anne Morriss & Frances Frei

Host: Morra Aarons-Mele
Date: January 20, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Anxious Achiever features a conversation between host Morra Aarons-Mele and renowned leadership experts (and partners in life and work) Anne Morriss and Frances Frei. The discussion explores neurodivergence, anxiety, and excellence in leadership—particularly, how embracing individual differences and open conflict drives real progress in organizations. The guests answer thorny listener questions around micromanagement, boundaries, DEI, imposter syndrome, and the narratives we create at work. The tone is insightful, supportive, and candid, focusing on practical approaches to thriving as a “different” leader.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Navigating Personal Differences in Partnerships

Timestamps: 03:19 – 12:56

• Differences in Wiring: Anne and Frances discuss how their contrasting ways of reacting to stimulus create balance in life and work.
  • Anne: “Frances underreacts to stimulus and I overreact.”
• Empathy in Partnerships: Their relationship is a “deep and daily exercise in empathy,” and they must respect each other’s different approaches.
• Learning from Each Other:
  • Frances: "Ann has taught me to use my words" (06:31).
  • Anne: "Passive aggression doesn’t work with a neurodivergent partner... I have to be quite clear." (06:56)
• Business Application: Frances admires Anne’s nurturing leadership style, noting that Anne sets conditions for teams to thrive, while Frances herself tends to be more transactional.
  • “A lot of what I’ve learned about leadership is watching Ann, honestly.” (08:22)

Notable Quote:
"We are each dramatically better as individuals when we are standing next to each other... It's almost unfair that we get two scoops of superpowers."
— Frances Frei (12:10)

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2. The Value of Neurodiversity and Authentic Leadership

Timestamps: 12:56 – 23:30

• Fitting In vs. Excellence: Frances cautions against conforming at work:
  • Quote: “Fitting in is one of the more dangerous things to do. If your quest is excellence, fitting in leads to mediocrity.” (13:28)
• Conflict as Progress: Both believe that productive conflict (not avoidance) is necessary for high performance and innovation.
  • “High performing teams have more conflict than low performing teams.” (15:33)
• Navigating Upbringing & Workplace Expectations:
  • Anne and Frances reflect on how family backgrounds shape their comfort with workplace conflict.
• Neurodivergence as a Leadership Asset: Frances explains how being neurodivergent at Harvard led her to question assumptions and push for meaningful, rapid change.
  • “If you’re going to take a long time to change something, you’re accepting that it’s not going to be as good.” (18:00)
  • “My neurodiversity is a superpower... I can hone in on something and I’m really not distracted by other things.” (21:35)

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3. Listener/Reader Q&A: Navigating Anxiety & Leadership Challenges

Timestamps: 23:44 – 59:39

a. When Your Boss is Anxious or a Micromanager

Timestamps: 28:18 – 33:56

• Earning Trust: Frances frames lack of trust as a “me problem, not a you problem”—focus on authenticity, logic, empathy (the “trust triangle”).
  • “If you don’t trust me, I didn’t earn your trust.” (28:18)
• Dealing with Empathy Wobbles: If you’re too “self-distracted,” it’s hard for others to trust you.
• Listening Instead of Advocating: Anne shares advice from couples therapist Orna Goralnik: true breakthroughs happen when you stop advocating and really listen.
  • “What would it look like for her to take responsibility for the emotional frequency in the room?” (33:41)

b. Boundaries with Clients and Team

Timestamps: 35:12 – 44:15

• Boundaries are Yours to Set: Anne: “Their boundaries aren’t relevant... it’s your boundaries.”
• All Mammals Adapt: Frances: “If you compromise your boundaries occasionally, it is received as compromising them always.”
  • Example: Not working Sundays—consistency is crucial for boundaries to be respected.
• Role of Narrative: Frame your boundaries with a compelling story and operational transparency so people understand and adapt.

Notable Quote:
“Always on does not produce excellence. But nobody’s going to give you permission to not always be on – you have to do it.”
— Frances Frei (37:37)

c. Navigating DEI/ERG Identity and Career Ambitions

Timestamps: 48:10 – 54:15

• Tour of Service: Frances: You don’t have to keep leading an ERG to demonstrate value—"mine it for everything" and then let others step in.
• Wide Inclusion: Make sure inclusion does not feel like exclusion; strive for environments where when things get better for some, it gets better for all.
• DEI as Leadership: “DEI done correctly is leadership, for sure.” — Anne Morriss (52:56)
• Political Calculus: Anne acknowledges the real concerns about being labeled as a “DEI person” and the need for careful, context-aware career decisions.

d. Imposter Syndrome & Accidental Leadership

Timestamps: 54:44 – 59:39

• Perfectionism & Narrative: Anne: “It does feel like this person is stuck in a couple different stories, including ‘my job is to get every single thing right.’”
• Outsource Your Excellence Assessment: Frances recommends relying on external feedback and “objective assessment” rather than your own inner critic.
• Energy and Recovery: "We all have to take responsibility for our own recovery and energy by any means necessary." (58:48)
  • Frances: “Non-negotiables: evenings, weekends, nutrition, exercise.”

Notable Quote:
“Her subjective assessment is probably far below the objective assessment. So I would do what I could to get in touch with the objective assessment.”
— Frances Frei (57:48)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Fitting In:
  “Fitting in is one of the more dangerous things to do. If your quest is excellence, I’m pretty sure fitting in leads to mediocrity.”
  — Frances Frei (13:28)

• On Conflict at Work:
  “If we ever put like a frowny face or a smiley face next to the word conflict, it’s always a smiley face. Like, we genuinely believe it’s progress. We need more of it.”
  — Frances Frei (15:33)

• On Boundaries:
  “If you compromise your boundaries occasionally, it is received as compromising them always.”
  — Frances Frei (37:21)

• On Trust:
  “If you don’t trust me, that’s a me problem, not a you problem. You can earn trust with just about anyone when you code it as a me problem.”
  — Frances Frei (29:24)

• On Neurodiversity:
  “My neurodiversity is a superpower... I really can hone in on something and I’m really not distracted by other things.”
  — Frances Frei (21:35)

• On Leadership & Energy:
  “We all have to take responsibility for our own recovery and energy by any means necessary... It’s not a nice to have. It’s a need to have.”
  — Anne Morriss (58:48)

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Key Timestamps for Reference

• 03:19 – Different wiring in partnerships and business
• 05:56 – Internal vs. learned processing, learning styles
• 08:22 – Leadership lessons learned from each other
• 12:10 – "Two scoops of superpowers" in partnership
• 13:28 – Fitting in vs. excellence
• 15:33 – Conflict as a driver of team progress
• 18:00 – Change and neurodivergent leadership at Harvard
• 21:35 – The hyperfocus “superpower” of neurodivergence
• 28:18 – Q&A on boss trust/micromanagement
• 35:12 – Q&A on managing boundaries and overwhelming clients/teams
• 48:10 – Q&A on DEI/ERG roles and career strategy
• 54:44 – Q&A on accidental leadership and imposter syndrome

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Tone & Takeaways

This episode is practical, empathetic, and forthright. Frances and Anne exemplify the idea that embracing difference, setting firm boundaries, and healthy conflict are not weaknesses but sources of professional and personal strength. Their advice is always grounded in self-awareness, agency, and the willingness to be both vulnerable and strategic. They challenge cultural norms that reward “fitting in,” encouraging listeners to lean into their uniqueness, build supportive narratives, and prioritize their own well-being and recovery as leaders.

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For Further Listening:
Find The Anxious Achiever wherever you get your podcasts.
Link: The Anxious Achiever on pod.link

Transcript

[Frances Fry]

Foreign.

[Maura Aaron]

Don'T wait. Protect your privacy, build your brand and get your complete business identity in just 10 clicks and 10 minutes. Visit northwestregisteredagent.com achiever free. Just head to to and complete the short assessment to get matched with an in network psychiatrist in just a few minutes. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and at shopify.com anxiousachiever that's shopify.com anxiousachiever just head to brevo.com achiever to take your marketing further with Brevo and its AI assistant Aura, which will help you craft smarter campaigns and create great content. Today we have an incredible conversation with Frances Fry and Anne Morris. Frances Fry is a legendary Harvard Business School professor who's held many leadership positions across the business school and they're a couple and they host one of my favorite podcasts called Fixable. I bring them your questions about confidence and anxiety and neurodivergent leadership. It's such a great conversation. But first, did you know I have an app? I do. I have an app. It's an Anxious Achiever app. It is your in the pocket, super helpful, super convenient coach when you are dealing with being an anxious achiever and trying to get some more joy and more ease in your life while not losing your amazing overachieving edge. Go to studio.commora that's just like my first name M O r r a studio.commora and check out the app. It's so great you guys. There's videos, there's meditation, there's exercises you can drop into. There's daily really quick. I value your time. They're really quick two minute reflections and prompts. You can start tuning in to anxiety at work, noticing your triggers and ultimately right, having agency over whether you choose to run with your anxiety or tell it. Not right now. I'm good, thanks. Do check out my anxious achiever [e-mail] mora and now my conversation with Anne Morris and Frances Fry. Ann and Frances, I'm so happy to have you here and I had so much fun on your podcast so I thought that I would turn the tables a little bit today. I've gotten some thorny listener slash reader questions on my LinkedIn that I wanted to give to you both for your thoughts. So I hope that's okay.

[Anne Morris]

It's only fair. We did this to you Mar.

[Maura Aaron]

You did, you did. But before we do that, I just wanted to ask you a little bit about you are partners in life, you're partners in work, you're entrepreneurs, you have kids. I mean you're doing all the things.

[Anne Morris]

We went all in.

[Maura Aaron]

You went all in. And I. And this is also relevant to my own couple. So, Frances, you have mentioned that you identify as neurodivergent. And this is not a diagnosis, but I get the vibe that you might be a little bit of an anxious achiever. What? You did say that you are a one strike person.

[Anne Morris]

Oh, that's not anxiety. That's all judgment. Yes.

[Maura Aaron]

Oh, oh, wait. What's the difference?

[Anne Morris]

That's such a good question. We could talk about that for this entire podcast.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah. No.

[Anne Morris]

What's the difference between judgment and anxiety?

[Maura Aaron]

Well, when you say that you feel like you're judged and then you feel like a failure after one strike, that's not anxiety.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah. So this is a very specific use case. First of all, I don't think you're. You're entirely off on your diagnosis. I can tell you how I identify, which is I really respond to the kind of ifs multiple mind view of the world. And it is helpful in our relationship because I get to talk about a part of me. There's an anxious part of me that needs some attention at various points along the way. And Francis is very responsive. But we can go down that path if it's useful to your listeners. But I feel like you were getting at something else.

[Maura Aaron]

I was getting at the fact that you do business together, you do life together, you do parenting together. And I had two questions, and the first question was, what have you learned from each other? Because it does seem that you kind of have different operating models maybe in the world.

[Anne Morris]

For sure, that is an accurate diagnosis. Totally.

[Frances Fry]

Yes.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah.

[Maura Aaron]

What have you learned from each other?

[Anne Morris]

Well, let me just say that it is very practical in the sense that Frances underreacts to stimulus and I overreact to stimulus. And so it really balances out as a couple is that I feel like, you know, we. We get it right as part of why the partnership works. I feel like for both of us, maybe Frances, but I'm gonna have some fun and only try to speak for myself in this conversation. I do think that it is a deep and daily exercise in empathy, because for this partnership to work on multiple levels, we have to maintain an awareness that each other is wired differently.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah. I often think about things. You can either have instincts or learned behavior. My instincts don't apply to Ann because we're wired differently. So I have to use my learn. My understanding of learned behavior to. To interpret. To interpret things. And if I ever let that go, I'll be like, oh, don't you like it like this too? No.

[Maura Aaron]

What have you taught each other? Maybe when it comes to dealing with conflict or dealing with new situations. Oh.

[Frances Fry]

Ann has taught me to use my words.

[Maura Aaron]

Oh, interesting.

[Frances Fry]

So I will be very much an internal processor, and that doesn't help when there is a duo or more metabolizing an issue. So using my words aloud so that we can together come up with better solutions.

[Anne Morris]

I have also learned to use my words because passive aggression doesn't work with a neurodivergent partner. Right. I can't send clues that I'm unhappy because that's not a language that you speak. And so I have to be quite clear. You're explaining my whole life if I'm not okay. And it's my like, like, grown ass, adult responsibility to do that. And I've definitely learned that from the relationship.

[Maura Aaron]

That's interesting. So you both learned how to use your words. What has it taught you in your entrepreneurship and building a business?

[Frances Fry]

Oh, well. So Ann is an amazing boss. Now, it doesn't mean she always wants to be a boss, and that's why we often will have a CEO or. Or someone else do the job. But Anne is really good. Like, I. I think anyone who's ever worked for Ann will say that Anne is the best boss they've ever had. I am quite sure that no one who is. I can hardly finish the sentence. I don't have to like, you know what, we can leave this part unsaid, but I'm quite sure it's not. I'm not leaving the same thing in my wake. And my getting to watch, you know, pretty much in awe about how Ann tends to people and makes them thrilled at what they're doing. And they produce amazing things because she's setting the conditions for them to do it. And without even realizing it, I'm much more transactional. Even if I could be transactional with you for years, because the rest of the stuff doesn't occur to me unless somebody points it out and then I'll do it. So I have learned that the. A lot of what I've learned about leadership is watching Ann, honestly. Because I have watched what a leader can do with other people, and it is awe inspiring.

[Maura Aaron]

That's interesting. I mean, that's wonderful.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah.

[Anne Morris]

I almost have nothing to say. This is very kind words from my better half. I do think the deep awareness of our distinct wiring and also the payoffs of those differences. Has profoundly changed the way I build teams and move through. I mean, move through the world, period. I I remember a moment I would. I started a company in the biotech space, and we had a good run. There was a moment early on where I. I became very aware that my tolerance for chaos was higher than everybody else's tolerance for chaos. And I think that lesson is really important. If you're gonna go out with a group of people and do hard things, and then why bother putting a group together? You're not gonna do hard things. And I think that's something, Francis, that you and I get to work on every day. I think the way. The reason we decided to really lean into working with each other is that we very much got in touch with the payoff of doing that work, which is that each of us is dramatically better as individuals when we are standing next to each other. And that just got. I mean, it got too hard to not experience, I think. I don't know. That's a bunch of double negatives, but I think that's how we ended up here.

[Maura Aaron]

That's a big case for the work that you do, though, out in the world. Right. And the whole idea, I mean, you know, y' all are sort of original supporters of the theory behind neurodiversity, which is that it takes a lot of our differences to come together and do something great.

[Frances Fry]

And.

[Maura Aaron]

Yeah.

[Anne Morris]

And can I. Can I try just to get at this thought one more time, which is that we often talk this. We often. Not. Not literally we. But we often have this conversation that it is like this point of friction or thing we have to get over or. And I think the. The primary story. Yeah, there's like, a little bit of friction and we have to deal with it. But the primary story of our differences is that who we are individually is dramatically better in the presence of the other. Francis, does that feel accurate?

[Frances Fry]

I think it's exactly right.

[Anne Morris]

So it is like, yes, one plus one equals a bigger number than two. And we are compliments, but we are each individually. We get to operate at this level. That is impossible in the absence of the other.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah. It's almost like if you have anybody in your life who you just stand taller when they're next to you. Well, think about that. But on many dimensions, in addition to height, like, it's just when you have, like, that person, I think we are that for each other. So we have more courage when we're with each other. We have more resilience when we're with each other. And so it does make us perform better individually. And then I think to the beautiful thing, we have very different superpowers I think because we're wired differently, and how cool is it to bring different superpowers to a problem? It's almost unfair that we get two scoops of superpowers.

[Maura Aaron]

But then why is it something that we hide? Also, I help moderate a career group for bipolar professionals, and one of them said to me recently, they said, you know, I'm the person who. They want all my ideas. They just don't always want me, you know, And I think that. I don't know, I think that, like, we humans naturally sort of get that we're all different and that we come together with strengths, but in the workplace, it can feel, especially now, like we do all sort of have to try to fit in some kind of box.

[Frances Fry]

I think fitting in is one of the more dangerous things to do. If your quest is excellence, I'm pretty sure fitting in leads to mediocrity. Pretty sure that that's true. So I'm not saying I don't understand the gravitational pull towards it. And maybe this person is reading the signals correctly. And then I wish I could lend them a little bit of my superpower of not understanding the signals, so not bothering to read them in that way. But I'm. But fitting in. I have found almost no one for whom that has led to excellence.

[Maura Aaron]

So, yeah, Yeah.

[Anne Morris]

I also think there's a lot of opportunity to recode, even rename this idea of friction and conflict as necessarily a bad thing. So even the. Even the storytelling we do personally around conflict as a signal, oh, I should. I should stop doing this thing or I should do it another way. You know, we do a lot of coaching in our work, and, you know, where I would pick up the conversation which that, with that person is like, okay, like, let's unpack the signals. And how did you get to the story that they don't want me? Like, that's a very, like, powerful conclusion. And then, like, where is your agency in the story? Because maybe the ideas are coming in a form that's hard for your audience to consume. Like, what power do you have before you reach the conclusion? You know, I am not valued in this setting.

[Maura Aaron]

Right.

[Anne Morris]

And I do think there's. There's. There's room for us as individuals to push on this. I think there's room for. For teams and organizations, we spend a lot of time around this question of conflict. And there are a lot of organizational cultures that have really internalized the idea that conflict is bad. Meanwhile, it's this incredible unlock to performance if you engage with those kinds of differences. Skillfully.

[Frances Fry]

If we ever put like a frowny face or a smiley face next to the word conflict, it's always a smiley face. Like, we genuinely believe it's progress. We need more of it. And all of the research tells us that high performing teams have more conflict than low performing teams. So honestly, it's also just perhaps a matter of getting used to that. That's again, what I mean by like the mediocrity and the excellence. You can't get to excellence in a group without conflict, so.

[Maura Aaron]

But Ann, you even said in your TED Talk, which I thought was hilarious, that you come from a very WASPy family where you talked about pets in the weather and Tom Brokaw and like.

[Anne Morris]

Those were our top three favorite dinner table conversations.

[Maura Aaron]

Weird, but okay. And that conflict probably was something you kind of had to learn how to do well coming from that.

[Anne Morris]

Oh, for sure. That what. That was a growth edge for me.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah. And neither of us does conflict well with our families, just to be super clear. We get the benefit of it professionally, but you gotta have somebody who's in it with you to see the good side of it. And I grow. I'm part of a very large extended family that is very conflict diverse. I have no desire to educate them on the, like, I'll take mediocrity, no problem.

[Maura Aaron]

Bland food is okay.

[Frances Fry]

It's totally okay. Thanksgiving, Christmas, no problem.

[Maura Aaron]

I mean, I grew up in a household of slammed doors and occasionally throwing things at each other. So, you know, that's my approach.

[Anne Morris]

But we all, I mean, and then we all show up at work together for sure, with these profoundly different relationships, with these signals. And I think the organizations that really find their way forward decide, okay, we're going to do it this way here, and we're going to make that discussable.

[Maura Aaron]

Yeah, make it safe. Before we get into our questions, I have one more question, which is for you, Frances. You work at a storied institution, but not necessarily always the most change friendly institution, Harvard. And you've had, you've been a professor there for years, but you've also had serious leadership roles. How has being a neurodivergent leader shaped what you've been able to do at Harvard? And then also, what do you think it's done for all those students you've had?

[Frances Fry]

I'll give an answer. I have a question I haven't actually thought about very much. So I appreciate the question. I believe meaningful change happens quickly. So if you're going to take a long time to change something, you're accepting that it's not going to be as good. And I'm very ambitious. I love Harvard. I love the business school. And so I want what's really best for it, which means I want meaningful change to happen quickly. So I would say that my experience as a leader, well, I've never been trying to catch up with someone. I would push forward change and then try to pull people along, I think with a very noble purpose. I remember when I first got the job as being senior associate dean of Executive education and get down there, and I'm told by everyone that works there, we're, we're full. So if we're going to get revenue, we're not going to get revenue from what happens on campus. You'll have to go think of additional revenue off of campus. I'm like, okay, no problem. So I'm walking around campus and I hardly see anybody. And I'm like, I keep hearing we're full, but I'm not bumping into anybody. And then I would peek into the classrooms, and all of the classrooms were half full. And what happened is they were using full because it was the number of bedrooms on campus, and we have a. And so I just was able to help expand the thinking a little bit. So when people say something to me, I usually interrogate it a little bit more. I think that's a blessing that comes with this superpower. But it wasn't full to me when I saw it, because it was half empty. And then we got to do some really extraordinary things in order to achieve the growth that they wanted. So it's. I would say that the two things are, I really do believe that if you don't go fast, you do less. And I, on behalf of, like, this great institution, if we're going to do less, don't have someone like me do it. There are plenty of people who are willing to do that.

[Maura Aaron]

There are lots of people who would. Yes.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah. So I think it's that part, but then it's also questioning the fundamental assumptions. Oh, well, capacity is the bedrooms, is it? And what if we thought about it differently? So I think it's. Those are the kinds of things that I brought. The students don't see any of that. I think what students experience from me, what they tell me, is that in my classroom, they experience perhaps higher standards than they experience in any other classroom, but they also experience my, like, super deep devotion to them. And that is actually the magical way to bring things together. That it's. If you're going to be devoted, you get to have even Higher standards. And so I think that students, to the extent that it has worked for them, say that the environment is one that they learned a lot more and maybe liked the version of themselves that showed up when we were like just all about the learning that occurred in the classroom and didn't get distracted by any other things.

[Maura Aaron]

Do you think that that has anything to do with your neurodivergence or that's just a piece of you that is.

[Frances Fry]

Well, I think I can focus and not get. Other people might see shiny objects along the side of that ambition and get distracted by them. I don't. So when I'm in the class, I am distracted by nothing except for that. And so I'm not distracted by anything except for the comments that the students are making or what the students are doing. And so I do think that to the. I, I do think my neurodiversity is a superpower. So I don't. It's not a burden, it's a superpower. And one of the superpowers is I really can hone in on something and I'm really not distracted by other things. And that's like, you know, again, it's a little unfair, but it makes for a pretty magical place in the classroom that resonates.

[Anne Morris]

I will also offer, and I say this as someone who loves the Harvard Business School. I'm a graduate. It's been a fantastic employer of my wife. You're not a crazy outlier.

[Frances Fry]

Oh, no.

[Anne Morris]

Oh, I feel just like neurodivergence standpoint.

[Frances Fry]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm glad we didn't feel like you're.

[Anne Morris]

Walking around and then.

[Frances Fry]

Oh, no, I'm in the majority. I'm pretty sure.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah, okay.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah, yeah. No, it's a, you know, come on.

[Maura Aaron]

I, yes. Having been married to a faculty member, I, I agree. I think, I think though that obviously the science would back you up, that the power of focus and devotion is a strength that a lot of us experience when our brains are different. Like the machinations and the calculations of the outside world just kind of fade away.

[Frances Fry]

That's exactly right.

[Maura Aaron]

Yeah.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah. And what's our, what's our 17 year old son lock in?

[Frances Fry]

Yeah, that's his phrase.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah, you totally like, you walk in that classroom and you are locked in.

[Frances Fry]

I'm locked in.

[Maura Aaron]

What a gift. What a gift. I love it. I love it. Okay, well, let's get to our questions. Unfortunately, I'm not as high production value as you and I don't have recordings of them, but I will read them.

[Frances Fry]

Oh, the dramatic read.

[Anne Morris]

The dramatic readings.

[Maura Aaron]

We're gonna do the dramatic read. Like me, you may have spent a lot of your work life wondering why some tasks that are simple for other people take you forever. Why you procrastinate on certain things but not on others, or why you feel really anxious about certain parts of your job. Here's the thing. This is not a character flaw. It's wiring. Patrick Lencioni, author of the Five Dysfunctions of a Team, created the working genius assessment to help you identify the type of work that you're built for and the type of work that you're not. And the thing is, there's no shame in this, right? If you listen to this show, you understand that we are all wired differently. Things that are hard for me might be super easy for you, and vice versa. And that's why we're on teams. To be an amazing leader, you don't have to do it all. You have to know what you're amazing at. And that's where the working genius assessment comes in. It's great. It gives you the clarity to stop wasting time on the things that drain you and that you'll never be good at and double down on what you're awesome about leveraging your strengths. You can take the working genius assessment today. It's quick, it's simple, it's powerful. I've taken it, as have millions of other people, and get 20% off with code [e-mail] just go to workinggenius.com, enter the code achiever. You'll get 20% off and you'll be so glad that you did. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US did you know that? And the thing that I love about Shopify, as you know, I'm a pretty good shopper, is that it makes it easy and secure. You know, you're busy, you're shopping, you find something online, you click to put it in your cart, and then you have to enter all your credit card info, but you don't have your credit card. It's downstairs or in another room, and you're feeling lazy. You think, I'll do it later. You don't do it later. Now, if you're a vendor, you've just lost a customer. But not if you use Shopify. That little purple pay button makes all the difference because it's one click and you've purchased simple as a tap on your screen. And Shopify works with some of the biggest Household names to brands. Getting Started so if you want to sell online, Shopify is a great solution for you. Get started with your own design studio. There are hundreds of ready to use templates and Shopify can help you build a beautiful online store that looks like you. It's like having a marketing partner in your pocket. It can help you get the word out, create email and social media campaigns. It makes you more efficient whether you're uploading new products or trying to improve existing ones. Shopify is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines and even enhance your product photography. And Shopify helps you find your customers with easy to run email and social media. They have 247 award winning support and you can tackle all those important tasks in one place. From inventory to payments to analytics and more. You don't need multiple websites. You don't need to figure out who's hosting what. Everything is all in one place. Making your life easier as a vendor and making my life easier as a purchaser. So see fewer carts go abandoned and more sales go with Shopify and their Shop pay button. Sign up for your $1 a month trial today at shopify.com anxiousachiever just go to shopify.com anxiousachiever that's shopify.com anxious achiever I think my boss is really anxious. Mostly they're controlling and I feel like they don't trust me to make good decisions. I'm never sure which version of them I'm going to get each morning. It's affecting me and other people on the team, but I don't know what to do about it. What's your advice, Ann?

[Frances Fry]

May I go first and then please. And I'll just take one part of it. But whenever somebody, whenever I the clue I heard is they don't trust me. As if that is their problem. That's a me problem, not a you problem. If you don't trust me, that's that I didn't earn your trust. That's how I view the world. So I would go back and look at what's getting in the way of your earning their trust. Now here's like a really fun fact. There's only ever three things that are getting in the way. Trust consists of authenticity, logic and empathy. If somebody doesn't trust me, they're either doubting my authenticity or they're doubting my logic, the rigor of my reasoning or they're doubting my empathy. So I would think which one of those three emanating from me is getting in the way of their Trusting me. And that's at least how I would go after that one line of it. And whichever one it is, we call it a wobble. So if somebody doesn't trust me, it's going to be because my empathy got in the way. Like my. I. Like I have an empathy wobble.

[Anne Morris]

It's.

[Frances Fry]

It's rare.

[Maura Aaron]

What's an empathy wobble?

[Frances Fry]

So an empathy wobble is that. And I often refer to it, if I hit something with my tail without even realizing it, I. Either I talked over them or I. They have needs that I'm not even attuned to. I'm just thinking about me, me, me. It's really hard to trust someone who's me, me, me, as opposed to thinking, as opposed to being centric on you. So shorthand for empathy is myself distracted or other distracted when I'm self distracted. It's going to be hard for you to trust me because you're going to get, oh, it's the real you with rigorous logic, but it's all about you. Why would I trust you? So that's the line I would do, is that when I hear somebody doesn't trust me, it's a me problem, not a you problem. We have found you can earn trust with just about anyone when you code it as a me problem.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah. Where I go on this is. Might sound a little contradictory, but I think there's an opportunity to make this less personal, which in that this may be how this woman is wired and her variability. There's this part of that that probably has nothing to do with. With the caller, but there's no growth opportunity in that interpretation. So find out what is within her control, make it discussable. You know, they're obviously not thriving as a partnership, and so getting into, you know, creating a space where you can have a conversation and ask for, you know, feedback that's going to be useful to you about how you can help this team of the two of you, but also the broader team be more likely to succeed. I think there's an invitation here in the frustration.

[Maura Aaron]

That's interesting. So what do you think? Micromanagement. I get a version of this question all the time. My boss is always in my business. They micromanage me. They don't seem to trust me, and it's driving me crazy.

[Anne Morris]

We interviewed. Do you watch Couples Therapy?

[Maura Aaron]

I don't. It's a little close to home.

[Anne Morris]

It's a little close to home. I know. I hear that from many people in your line of work. Maura, the show is fabulous. If I can make the case. And part of what makes the show great is that the therapist, Dr. Orna Goralnik, is spectacular at her job and as the audience. So that her part of what her, the couples get, and these are real live couples therapy sessions, is that they are in the presence of deep empathy. So you get, you can see them just get the nervous system hit of being deeply listened to, which is not an experience as human beings that we, we have very often going through the world. What makes the show work is that as the audience, you also get the nervous system hit of just being in the presence of deep empathy. So it's a very cool viewing experience. We just interviewed her on our show Fixable and we asked a version of this question, you know, a little bit more generic, just, but just I'm frustrated at work with my boss, it's not going well, what should I do? And her answer was listen. And we really, we pushed on a little bit, but we're like, wait, but I'm in advocacy mode. It's not working. I, I'm not getting my needs met, you know, and she was like, oh no, no, no, no. Like your job is to go in there and really listen. And from the tone of this particular email, my suspicion is that like the, where's the breakthrough in the story? I think it is the writer, the caller here really listening, getting into conversation with their boss and really listening and building a solution and a path forward from there.

[Maura Aaron]

I love that. And also maybe just co regulating a little bit with energy, empathetic, present listening energy that maybe would bring this woman's levels down a little bit.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah. What would it look like for her to take responsibility for the emotional frequency in the room?

[Maura Aaron]

Oh, I love that.

[Anne Morris]

So the boss is bringing some controlling energy. And what is this caller responding with that is totally within her control. So that's a beautiful sandbox to get into and start running some experiments.

[Frances Fry]

You know, I have a good friend who is a physician and was complaining that she was always micromanaged by her department chair. And when we got to the bottom of it, what we found, and I have no idea if this will be helpful, but is that my friend, the physician, when she was given a task, she liked to go do it completely and then bring it back with a bow on it. And the department chair by giving her the task didn't mean she wanted it to be done in isolation. She still wanted to co produce it, but she wanted her to be the quarterback. Once we untangled that, then it didn't feel like micromanaging. Anymore. It felt like co production.

[Maura Aaron]

I love that. So just understanding the styles and the expectations.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah.

[Maura Aaron]

Yeah. Very good. Okay, here's another one that I get all the time. I work in client services. My largest client has absolutely no boundaries. They call me day and night. I can tell them that I'm unavailable, but they don't care. They pay me really well, but I can feel myself getting burnt out. And at the same time, someone crucial on my team is very demanding and also drains my energy. I don't know what to do because everywhere I look, people are draining my batteries. And it feels like nothing I tell them will change their behavior.

[Anne Morris]

Well, their boundaries aren't relevant to the story. It's your boundaries. And I think figuring out what her rules of engagement for work are and then figuring out what her willingness to kind of defend those boundaries, I think that's the work here. The premise that she can meaningfully change the behavior of the other people in the story and affect change in that way, I think that is an unrealistic expectation. I think she can meaningfully change her own behavior in her response to what they're offering, and then they can co produce a better way to collaborate.

[Frances Fry]

You know, a phrase that Ann often, I hear Ann saying is all mammals adapt. And so by not having boundaries. And it sounds like this woman doesn't have boundaries, that everyone has adapted to not having boundaries, and that if she decided to have boundaries, they would. I mean, it would take a slight adjustment period, but they would adjust to it. So here are two things I know. One, if you compromise your boundaries, occasionally, it is received as compromising them. Always. It is so much easier to. So I don't work on Sundays, for example, if you occasionally do work on Sundays, people don't believe you when you say, I don't work on Sundays. So it's the same as not having a boundary. So. And this is from Clay Christensen, who is a wonderful professor at Harvard Business School, and he wrote a very famous book called how will you measure your life? But he. He really convinced me that it is so much easier to not compromise. And the signal that is received from that people will circle around. Whereas if you do compromise and they just think, well, now we're negotiating. So that's. I think the first part is to have boundaries that you will commit to. So you have to have a reason and a story behind them. Now, for him, he's Mormon. He doesn't work on Sunday. That was the.

[Maura Aaron]

He's Clay Christensen.

[Frances Fry]

He's Clay Christensen. Right. So you can do it but so then I would have operational transparency around it. So if someone said, well, you've just. This was excellent. Oh, you know why? Because I go to bed at 10 o', clock, I turn everything off at 10 o'. Clock.

[Anne Morris]

That's.

[Frances Fry]

If I didn't do that, I wouldn't be able to produce this. Like, I would add some operational transparency to it so I wouldn't have outlandish boundaries. And you want to give people like a, a narrative to understand it. But so I would combine not sending mixed messages and getting really in, in touch with it. And if you're always on, you again will go to mediocrity. Like always on does not produce excellence. But nobody's going to give you permission to not always be on you. You have to do it. But then be super clear about it and everyone will adapt or not. Like, let's say you do have a client that only wants to work with people that are on 24 7. Well, then you have a choice to make if you want to be that person. But I would exhaust myself before concluding that that's really what they want. Or have you trained them that it's. You're going to be available 24 7? Right.

[Anne Morris]

And let me just say one other thing on this one, I think context matters. So if this caller is in the crisis management business, then it is a reasonable expectation from her clients or his clients that they will be available. And so if they are in a business where they have to be available at all hours in order to successfully deliver the service they're providing, then to Francis, to your point, then they have to take responsibility for recovering in other ways.

[Maura Aaron]

In ways they can.

[Anne Morris]

In ways that they can or, you know, they have to, you know, sprint, get through the crisis, then take some really meaningful downtime, then come back, whatever it is. But I think it really depends on the nature of the business.

[Frances Fry]

It's a really fair point.

[Maura Aaron]

I hear this a lot versions of it when working with lawyers in big law. Right. I bill in six minute increments. How do you. If I say to them, try to have boundaries, they look at me like I just came out of, you know, the clamshell. And so I guess what you're saying is you have to be a little greedy. Like you have to be a little bit.

[Frances Fry]

No one is, yeah, no one is going to take care of you. But you, like, no one knows that they're compromising your excellence. So I study service organizations and I would often say customers will unwittingly put you out of business because the Customers don't know the operational implications of their request. And by saying yes to everything a customer asks, you've just become an unprofitable and then a non existent business.

[Maura Aaron]

Right.

[Frances Fry]

So it's up to you to communicate. Now if you're an outlier and you know, if I'm in a law firm and everyone else is billing 100 hours and I'm billing 50 hours, I'm probably not in the right law firm. But no one is thinking about me. No one knows the inner schematics of me. The only chance of me being optimized is by me at the control panel.

[Maura Aaron]

Yeah, I know you both study narrative. What role does having a narrative, you said to deliver excellence. I go to bed at 10. Right. What role does creating sort of the narrative around this.

[Anne Morris]

It's everything.

[Frances Fry]

Like you, we, we have to tell a story that people are like, oh, of course.

[Maura Aaron]

Okay.

[Frances Fry]

So I, because of my, the, my neuro superpower, I don't have meals with other people. So you will just not find. Meet someone who. I have meals. Well, I had to come up with a way to say that to people so that it didn't feel insulting, but they do it. That's just like a, just a lovely quirk about me.

[Maura Aaron]

What do you say?

[Frances Fry]

Depending on who they are, because it depends on the hierarchy. If they're like a really powerful person. I say I only have purposeful interactions with people. Meals are too much for me. I can't do it. And then if it's somebody else, I'm like, oh my gosh, what I hear is so wonderful. Let's have a brainstorm in my office for 15 minutes. As an alternative. So I'll do it in those ways and then if it's the casual one, be like, oh, thank you. I don't have meals with, I don't have meals with anybody with my family. Yeah, but if I.

[Anne Morris]

And sometimes you'll be playful, for instance, you'll say, oh, this introvert doesn't do.

[Frances Fry]

I will say this.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah, this, you know, like it just make it.

[Frances Fry]

But if you heard that I was having dinner with other people, you wouldn't believe it.

[Maura Aaron]

I'd feel terrible.

[Frances Fry]

Right, but you'll never hear that, right? You will never hear that because it's a real boundary.

[Maura Aaron]

It's like this is her thing.

[Frances Fry]

I don't have meals with other people. It's hard enough for me to have meals with my family and I don't do that. Honestly. I don't have all of the meals with my family. I have as Many as I can. I think the narrative is really important and I think we get better at the narrative the more we practice it. I wouldn't give anyone my first draft. I would try it. If it didn't work, I would come up and then you'll find the phrases that work. Yeah.

[Anne Morris]

And you have to learn how to sail the vessel. You know, we don't. We don't know. I mean, that's part of the glorious experience of life and the kind of. It can change as we get older and we move through different phases of life. So, yeah, I think the narrative we tell ourselves is really profound. And then, of course, what we articulate to the world can have an enormous.

[Maura Aaron]

Impact and the narrative of the system we work in. Right. I work at a law firm. I never say no to my client. This is just what we do.

[Anne Morris]

But if that's the. Again, if that is the culture of the firm, so what are you going to do that is within your control and freedom of movement to make sure that you, like, are. Are getting the restoration you need. And there you may have more freedom of movement than you think, which I think, Francis, is your experience of the world. Like, people are trainable if the return that they're getting is worth it. Is worth it.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah.

[Anne Morris]

So this is not in a vacuum. Also, young people entering the workforce.

[Frances Fry]

You.

[Anne Morris]

Got to give them something in return.

[Frances Fry]

But your value proposition has to be super good for them. That's why I always like to get the weigh in when they compliment something. I give them the operational transparency of why it exists and then they become understanding.

[Maura Aaron]

Absolutely love that. The operational transparency. Okay. Oh, so. Oh, this is. This is actually a good one. Until recently, I helped run the neuro inclusive ERG at my company, but I recently stepped back from that role, sensing the winds have changed when it comes to talking openly about inclusion in the business. And I work at a very accepting and pretty healthy environment. But I want to go up for a promotion and I'm anxious about being known for DEI because DEI feels like kind of a dirty word. But I am neurodivergent. It's a piece of my identity. I feel guilty hiding right now, but I'm trying to do what's smart for me in my career. I got this question last week and it sort of cut me. What's your advice? If you've listened to this show and heard from many of the leaders and experts that we've had on, you know, the really important role that psychiatry and medication can play when you're managing a mental health condition or a diagnosis. And it's hard to find a psychiatrist these days, right? It can be really challenging when you need medication support. Talkiatry was built just for that. It's virtual psychiatry that actually fits your life and your insurance. Therapy is really wonderful. I am pro therapy, but sometimes you need psychiatric care with licensed clinicians, right? This means that they can diagnose and prescribe medication if it's right for you. Tochiatry is 100% online psychiatry practice and it provides comprehensive evaluations, diagnoses and ongoing medication management for conditions like adhd, anxiety, depression prevention, bipolar disorder, ocd, PTSD and more. Unlike therapy only apps, Tochiatry is psychiatry and that means you're seeing a medical provider who can diagnose mental health conditions and prescribe medication if it's appropriate. So if tochiatry sounds like a great solution after all, you can do it from your home and all of their 600 plus clinicians are in network with major insurers so you can use your existing insurance. Just head to to and complete the assessment to get matched with an in network psychiatrist in just a few minutes. Head to tochiatry.com achiever and complete the short assessment to get matched with an in network psychiatrist in just minutes. That's tochiatry.comAchiever to get matched in minutes Are you ready to take your business's marketing to the next level? Meet Brevo, the all in one marketing and CRM platform built to help you connect with customers, boost engagement and grow your business smarter. With Brevo you can manage all your customer interactions in one place, nurture leads with their built in CRM, reach your audience through email and SMS and keep them coming back with powerful automations. But here's where it gets really cool. Aura is Brevo's AI assistant and Aura helps you craft smarter campaigns by suggesting personalized content, optimizing send times, and even analyzing performance data to help you improve your strategy in real time. It's like having a marketing expert on your team 24, 7. And of course Brevo offers advanced analytics, seamless integrations and AI driven personalization which is everything you need to create multichannel campaigns that hit the mark every time. Get started for free today or use code ACHIEVER50 to save 50% on starter and standard plans for the first three months of an annual subscription. Just head to brevo.com achiever and take your marketing further with Brevo and Aura.

[Frances Fry]

The diagnostic questions I would ask are you've already done it. Have you done it enough to Tell the narrative of promotion. Like we don't have to keep doing something. And I find we hold on to our tours of service a little bit too long without letting other people have a chance. So I remember back in the day and the woman who would run the women's erg would be in her fifth year and exhausted.

[Maura Aaron]

Right. And, and the. She's the woman.

[Frances Fry]

Right.

[Maura Aaron]

It's like.

[Frances Fry]

And she's. Yeah. And so I would always encourage. You can't do. Put a one year moratorium. Like you get one year and then you also want to cause you. It's an, it's an opportunity for other people and it's a way to build the organization. So one thing is I would. My first question is, have you already done your tour of service and now you get to metabolize what happened and use it in your narrative about what you learned as opposed to because I ran it, I should continue running it. So that's my first thing is if you've already done it, then I wouldn't be sad about it. I would mine it for everything. Now I also have a lot of compassion for the next person who comes in to do it is doing it in a way that they'll have to think about how to do it their way. You know, will they use the phrase dei? Probably not. They might. And because that's like what's really important to them. But if that's not what's really important to them, they might emphasize one of the words. So I have always emphasized inclusion and then I've always used a very wide range of inclusion so that everyone I'm talking to feels like they too would be included. Is one of the things we know about inclusion is that we don't want my inclusion to feel like your exclusion.

[Maura Aaron]

Exactly. That didn't work so well.

[Frances Fry]

Didn't work so well. So. So we want to make sure that when we're talking about inclusion, it's not coded as exclusion. And so I would. Those are, those are initial thoughts I have for it.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah, I, I agree with that. I mean the data is super clear that when you get all the way to inclusion, to a true sense of inclusion, it's a huge win for workplaces on performance, on engagement, on meritocracy. So we are not sentimental about language. And certainly there are parts of this moment that you can attribute to kind of bad faith. But there's not an opportunity in the bad faith elements of this political moment. If we take this moment around, this work as an invitation to make it more inclusive and to make sure that when we are creating a workplace that is better for some people, it's better for everyone else too, as opposed to better for some and less better for others. If we pick up that invitation to do this work more effectively, I think this can be a really profound pivot point on the march to workplaces that are true meritocracies, where everyone, not in spite of, but because of their unique perspectives and superpowers and experiences, are able to thrive.

[Frances Fry]

Well, I'll give you an example.

[Maura Aaron]

Oh, yeah, please. No, you, though, please.

[Frances Fry]

I was gonna say, I'll give you an example. So the Women's Student association has been at the Harvard Business School for a very long time. Back in the day, it was. It's. There weren't very many women. The women that were there weren't thriving. It was. Its need was like, for us to just get enough of us there. Now there's like equal numbers, so its role is different. But I can remember when it was like to just get enough of us and we weren't thriving. And they would. They figured out. And the Veterans association did the same thing at about the same time. Vets figured out how to run review sessions for vets to help them learn. Because you could code. Oh, well, if as a vet, I learned about engineering this way, how do I port it over to finance? And they had people. And then for Women's Student association, they figured out how to run review sessions that were. Well, here's what's really important. The Women's Student association never closed their review sessions. They were always open to all.

[Maura Aaron]

Oh, interesting.

[Frances Fry]

That's, I think, a really important point. If inclusion feels like exclusion, it's going to be hard. But if inclusion feels like when we make the world better for some, we make it better for everyone, people are going to be really delighted.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah. And DEI done correctly is leadership, for sure.

[Maura Aaron]

But I think what I also heard in this person was a little bit of, I don't want to be the poster child for this in an environment where it may see as me being less than when I want to be considered more than. And that's a very tough thing.

[Anne Morris]

I think it's a very practical political calculus that isn't crazy. In this moment, as we've gotten, we had these conversations with other experts. I think we haven't necessarily achieved this beautiful moment where people aren't bringing baggage and attribution to all of these words. And it's reasonable to factor that into our decisions to stand up at the front of the room and be the poster Child not be the poster child. Claim labels. Not claim labels. I think that is an honest and fair assessment, and you don't want to.

[Frances Fry]

Be the only one. So that's where I think it's not just tours of service, but then, you know, this group doing things with that group, like, just making it feel like it's a positive movement as opposed to a, like, secretive special interests.

[Maura Aaron]

Yes. Right. Who want things and cause trouble. Oh, okay. I'm looking at our time. I'm going to do one more. Oh, gosh. I have one about a young person just leaving university, and I have one about a leader who was thrust into leadership and feels like she's not a real leader. Which one do we want to do? I think, number two, the young person. Okay.

[Anne Morris]

No, the thrust into leadership.

[Maura Aaron]

Oh, the thrust. Oh, sorry. Sorry. Okay. After almost five years in leadership, I'm still in a constant state of, what if I mess this up? Too many people are depending on me, and it's emotionally exhausting me. This makes me feel like I should leave my leadership role because it feels like I got here by mistake, but I'm not sure that's what I want to do. And then just a little bit of background is that this person was accidentally, she says, put in charge of a nonprofit because she was actually their comms person, but it was about to go belly up, and she was the only person on staff who wasn't actually treating patients. So they had her take over operations to save money. And she managed to write it, she managed to get it on track. She turned this into a successful enterprise, but she still feels like she's not a real. Whatever that means, CEO.

[Frances Fry]

And does this make you think of imposter syndrome?

[Anne Morris]

Yeah. I mean, where my head went was, you know, the conversation we've been having all year around perfectionism. And, Maura, to your point about storytelling, it does feel like this person is stuck in a couple different stories, including my job is to get every single thing right all day, every day. And I think finding the exit from that story, I think is going to be an important part of looking clearly at. Is this work energizing to her? Is it work she wants to be doing? You know, I. I think it would if we were working with her. It'd be fun to prep press on the story that she accidentally ended up in this leadership role and then kind of stumbled into this extraordinary turnaround, but didn't get the job because she was the most qualified and certainly didn't, like, have a plan that then worked, you know, So I Think. I think it's, you know, I think there's some threads here to pull on and getting her to see reality a little bit more clearly. And reality is pretty cool. I mean, sounds like she's good at this job and can she find a way to do. It's almost like we become better drivers when we don't grip the steering wheel so tightly. And so can we get her to loosen her grip a little and trust her instincts and kind of feel into the curves of the road here? She's already pretty good at the job. I think what's cool is she might be great. Like, great might not be that far away on the horizon. And so I think the work is finding some freedom along the way and narrative might be part of it.

[Frances Fry]

I love that.

[Maura Aaron]

Yeah. To me, it's almost like the Groucho Marx story. Like, she doesn't want to belong to the club where they would invite her to be in the club because she doesn't feel.

[Frances Fry]

Feel.

[Maura Aaron]

For some reason, she got the imprimatur of like, you're the CEO.

[Anne Morris]

I love that phrase. I was accidentally put in charge.

[Frances Fry]

No, she's an accidental leader. No. So that's like such a fun way to do it. And then I would also just say from the work that. Do a lot of work with people who have a version of imposter syndrome, which in my mind is just that my understanding of my excellence is different than the actual understanding of my excellence. That is I'm not a good arbiter. And so the one thing I'd like her to come to terms with is you're not a good judge. So I would outsource a good job I'm doing to others and collect that data and do it and believe it. And then there are some things you can do to train yourself to get better at the assessment. But her subjective assessment is probably far below the objective assessment. So I would do what I could to get in touch with the objective assessment.

[Maura Aaron]

And what about the emotional exhaustion piece?

[Anne Morris]

Yeah, I mean, it goes back to the conversation we just had is. It's. It's a very personal thing, but it is a universal mandate that we all have to take responsibility for our own recovery and energy by any means necessary. So doing this job going forward, it's going to.

[Frances Fry]

If she.

[Anne Morris]

If it's going to be sustainable, then she's going to have to find a way to protect her life force. And it's not a nice to have.

[Frances Fry]

It's.

[Anne Morris]

It's a need to have. It's a total requisite to keep doing the job. So I would really push her to take that deadly seriously.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah. So there's non negotiables, evenings, weekends, nutrition, exercise. You can negotiate everything else, but the second you start compromising those things, you've just accepted that you're on a short term, not a long term arrangement.

[Maura Aaron]

Also, I'm sure you find when people lose the imposter syndrome and the inner critic, they have more energy. It's a weird thing that happens.

[Frances Fry]

Totally, totally.

[Anne Morris]

Great point. A great point. It is like the way she's doing this job again where she has to get everything right all of the time is for sure a primary source of that exhaustion.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah.

[Maura Aaron]

I want to thank you so much.

[Frances Fry]

Oh my gosh. Can we come back next week? This was so fun.

[Maura Aaron]

I just admire you both. I love your show, everything you put out in the world. So thank you.

[Anne Morris]

Total privilege to be here.

[Frances Fry]

Oh my gosh. We are, we couldn't be bigger fans. So thank you for sharing this with us.

[Maura Aaron]

That's it for this week's show. If you like the show, follow us and tell your friends. And please leave us a review. It really helps the anxious achiever get found by people just waiting for our content. I'm your host Maura Aaron's mealy. Lots more to come in the next episode.

[Frances Fry]

Sa.