Portland Book Festival has been a proud partner of the National Book Foundation Presents program for many years now, and at the 2025 festival we featured a program called “The Cost of Hope,” moderated by National Book Foundation executive director Ruth Dickey, and featuring 2024 National Book Award in Nonfiction winner Jason De Leon, author of Soldiers and Kings: Survival and Hope in the World of Human Smuggling, and 2025 National Book Award finalist in Fiction Megha Majumdar, author of A Guardian and a Thief.

The intersections between Jason’s book, in which he embeds with a group of smugglers moving migrants across Mexico over the course of seven years, and Megha’s novel, about two families in a climate-ravaged near-future Kolkata, are abundant. In fact, the two authors share a background in anthropology, and talk about how that education has shaped the way they interpret the world.

Their wide-ranging conversation starts with a discussion of how hope can be “snarling and aggressive,” and idea of hope as a refusal to back down. They also talk about the ways both of their stories connect climate change and migration, and how inescapable that connection is. In different ways; for Jason, through reporting, and for Megha, through fiction, both books are able to interrogate huge systems through the individual lives, making these incomprehensible forces in the world legible by finding the storytelling.

This is a conversation between two artists thinking deeply about some of the most pressing issues of the day, and approaching them from places of care and, indeed, ultimately, from places of hope.

Jason De León is professor of Anthropology and Chicana/o Studies and Director of the Cotsen Institute of Archaeology at the University of California, Los Angeles. He is also Executive Director of the Undocumented Migration Project, a 501(c)(3) research, arts, and education collective that seeks to raise awareness about migration issues globally while also assisting families of missing migrants reunite with their loved ones. He is a 2017 MacArthur Fellow and author of the award–winning books The Land of Open Graves: Living and Dying on the Migrant Trail and Soldiers and Kings: Survival and Hope in the World of Human Smuggling, Winner of the 2024 National Book Award for Nonfiction.

Megha Majumdar is the author of the New York Times bestselling novel A Burning, which was Longlisted for the National Book Award, nominated for the National Book Critics Circle’s John Leonard Prize, and a finalist for the American Library Association’s Andrew Carnegie Medal for Excellence. It was named one of the best books of the year by media including The Washington Post, the New York Times, NPR, The Atlantic, Vogue, and TIME Magazine. A 2022 Whiting Award winner, she was born and raised in Kolkata, India, and holds degrees in Anthropology from Harvard and Johns Hopkins. She is the former Editor-in-Chief of Catapult Books, and lives in New York. A Guardian and A Thief is her second novel.

Ruth Dickey has spent 30 years working at the intersection of community building, writing, and art, and is the Executive Director of the National Book Foundation. The recipient of a Mayor’s Arts Award from Washington DC, and a grant from the DC Commission and Arts and Humanities, Ruth is the author of Our Hollowness Sings (Unicorn Press, 2024), and Mud Blooms (Harbor Mountain Press, 2019), and an ardent fan of dogs and coffee.

CW: The podcast version of this episode is uncensored and contains strong language. Listener discretion is advised!