← The Art of Sales with Art Sobczak
The Art of Sales with Art Sobczak
329 GUEST Joe Dalton- You Don't Have a Closing Problem, You Likely Have This Instead
00:38:26
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- [00:02]
A
You are listening to the Art of Sales. Everyone sells every day and this is your source for conversational real world sales and prospecting methods that you are comfortable using and that get results you'll help people buy instead of pushing them into being sold. Here's your host, Art Sobchak.
- [00:24]
B
Today's guest is someone who has spent decades studying and practicing the craft of selling. Joe Dalton is a sales trainer, a speaker, and author of the book Salescraft, your Ultimate guide to Mastering Deal Closing and Becoming a Master craftsperson in the art of sales. Nice of him to put our show name in there. Joe and I have actually had some great conversations before on his podcast. So I'm really looking forward today to continuing our discussions. And we're going to talk about Joe's philosophy on selling, which is very similar to mine, the framework that he teaches and some practical ideas that can help you have better sales conversations right away and close more business. Now, Joe, welcome to the show.
- [01:24]
C
Art, great to be here. Delighted to have a conversation. I think this is our third conversation actually going back, going back to 2017. 2017, believe it or not.
- [01:37]
B
Time flies. And we had just recorded for Joe's show. And Joe, tell our audience where you are recording from today.
- [01:47]
C
Yes, I'm recording from a little rock off the coast of Europe called Ireland, as probably a lot of people can gather from my voice. But yes, just based outside Dublin, the capital city in the Emerald Isle. And you know, happy St. Patrick's Day to all my US listeners out there as well.
- [02:08]
B
All right. And for those of you watching, my regular listeners, you can tell I'm not in my home office with all the books behind me, but that is the sea of Cortez behind me. So I'm at my, my southern office here in Mexico. But enough about me. Joe, back to you. Let's start at the beginning. Well, not at the very beginning, but sales wise, take us back to your very first sales job. What did you sell and what did that experience teach you about sales?
- [02:40]
C
Well, I'll, I'll drop in two. One, I was selling baked potatoes at 13 at a conference. It was, my sister had a company at the time and she was selling ready meals. This is going back so a long time and I was in charge of a stand selling baked potatoes and I was speaking to people and pitching them on the beautiful potato with, with the, the meat and sauce and people would hand me money and I went, wow, this is amazing. I'm just talking to people and they're giving me money. But my real sales job started I think was about 18, and I got a job in office supply store. And you know, at the, you know, a small store, people coming in, photocopying, buying office supplies. And I said to the owner at the time, I said, look, can I see if I can go out and get some sales? And they went, yeah, look. So I went to the shelf and I took off a, a briefcase, which I don't think we use anymore. It's still upstairs, believe it or not, in the attic. And I took the briefcase and I went and I got some. Do you remember those big brochures with all the office supplies in them with the chairs and the stationary? Remember they were called Wiggins Teep in Europe. And I got a couple of those brochures and I threw them into the, into the briefcase. And I went down to the local town and I cold called, knocked on doors and spoke to receptionists. And eventually after a couple of days doing that, I came back with a fistful of orders. And at that time, I enjoyed being outside. I loved meeting people, I loved talking to people. And there was a part of me which was kind of going, hang on, I'm getting paid commission for the efforts that I'm doing. So it was that moment that I realized I could write my own paycheck.
- [04:41]
B
You had extreme success in your, it seems like in your first two jobs here, you're probably thinking, wow, this is pretty easy.
- [04:49]
C
Yeah, yeah, it was. You know, the one thing is you're selling and you. Then it was my. I got a company car. So, you know, if you think about it, 1920, getting a company car back in the 80s, especially in Europe, was a big thing. I got a, a mobile phone, which no one had a mobile phone at the time because so you could only ring people that had landlines. And there was this pride and achievement as well. But also with pride and achievement, doubt can kick in, especially in the sales war that, you know, you're not making sales for a period of time a week, as you know, you can get into that momentum of selling and everything is great and, and you'd have that little bit of doubt. So I realized as well that it's not just about selling, it's about the mindset that we needed to have. And I, I can remember back then there was the late night TV and Tony Robbins was on, and I went and bought his CDs. It was a selection of his CDs, which was all about mindset and development. So even at that age, in the 80s, late 80s, I kind of says, okay, we're doing one thing, but it's focusing on, you know, what's in here. Yeah.
- [06:11]
B
To be a little bit older than you, because I remember when Tony Robbins had cassette tapes when he first came up. So I love that you call sales, when done professionally, a craft. Tell us when you realized that sales was a craft. Instead of just talking to people, which obviously you were pretty good,
- [06:38]
C
I left Ireland and I went to Germany and, you know, I. I went over suitcases, 200 pound of my pocket, and went over to work for a guy as an agent who was selling into the US Military over there. And I went over and I got the interview and I was sort of came in like a junior. And from there I was then shown this is what you're doing. But to be a professional salesperson, there is a system and there's a process and there's. There's different elements of it. And I can remember just being blown away with being taught what it actually is to be a sales professional, not someone who is winging it or selling it on intuition or talking or, you know, all those elements that we do when we're not trained, that we think we are. And when I was shown it and it was like, wow, this is. And I fell in love with it. I fell in love with communication. So that was in my early 20s. But what happened? My income went from here to right up. It exploded because I was no longer selling. I was. It was a professional salesperson.
- [08:07]
B
Now you're looking at as a career as opposed to, well, this is a job that's going to help me make some money until I maybe go find something else. So in your book Sales Craft, you outline a framework that guides the sales process called craft, coincidentally. Give us a quick overview of that framework and why you believe salespeople need to follow a clear process. Like you realize so early in your career.
- [08:41]
C
Yeah, the reason why I mapped it out like it's, you know, it's. It's called so many things over the years, but mapped it out as craft. And the first thing is, you know, it's creating that connection with the person, and that's about building rapport. And I think everyone needs to have that. But in that space that a lot of people think, oh, you just build rapport to get on and build trust. But it goes beyond that. Like building rapport means when you get to the very end of a sale, if you. If there is another person out there that is selling the exact same thing as you, the same everything, price, whatever it may be, who does the buyer choose, they build, they choose the person that they have the most rapport with. You know, so rapport is about connecting with people. It's about building that relationship. And then, you know, there's bridges from each part of a sale as well. And then it's going into research. And research, as we know, is fact finding. It's, you know, blueprinting. It's understanding the person's needs, wants, desires, you know, interest, curiosity. And then it's going in from there. You're looking about adapting that presentation. And adapting that presentation is. Is really sort of showing the person that you understand what their issues, concerns are and offering insights and how you can help them. And then jumping into that is it's actually getting the person to, you know, understanding and doing it that they actually buy from you and closing the sale. And then it's about tidying up as well. But the reason why I have the steps, it's for the sales professional to know exactly where they are at all times. So if they get lost or sidetracked, they actually can go back to that stage of where they are. And if they stay in those stages and go through it, they have a bridge then to jump into the next. And over the 30 years I've looked at it and, and I've sort of identified 16, 17 elements in the perfect sale. And, you know, if someone slows down and takes time, you know, you're a better chance of closing. Instead of just trying to get a deal across the line, show them what you have. So they fall in love with it and they buy it. It doesn't. Doesn't work like that.
- [11:06]
B
So have you ever had a client or a potential client? And they're talking about, boy, we need your help, Joe. We need some training. And you ask them, well, what do you feel you need help on? And they say, we really need help on closing the sale. What's your reaction to that?
- [11:24]
C
Well, I'm a big believer on. I hear it loads of times. I've stood up in events and, you know, people go, oh, I need to close the deal. And I always say to them, it starts at the very beginning. It starts in the discovery. You know, the more questions that you ask in discovery and those different categories of questions can eliminate the objections or the concerns that you have at the very end. So, you know, people should spend more time in the discovery part. And there's certain questions that you should have in that, in. In that discovery that eliminates all the worry and all the tension at the end. And then people will learn you don't sell to them, but they actually will buy from you as well.
- [12:13]
B
I knew the answer to that question, by the way. Kind of, kind of set you up there because we have the same mindset. And when anybody asks or tells me that, I'll say to myself, oh boy, we have a problem here. They don't have a closing problem, they've got an opening problem. And, and the close is really like in American football, running the ball in from the 1 inch line. Because that's a no brainer, right? If you did all, if you did your job earlier in the call, like you mentioned in the discovery, then it's pretty easy to just run that last play. So in your book, you just, you compare discovery to what a doctor does diagnosing a patient. So explain that idea and do it in the context of you, you talk about the four types of questions that help move the, the sales conversation forward.
- [13:06]
C
Yeah, it's, you know, it's like triage. It's as I say, it's like you go into a doctor and they don't just give you medicine or I actually even bring it to, I bring it to the next level. It's like baking a cake and a baker, if they don't put in the right ingredients, they don't put in the right amount ingredients and when they bake the cake, it's horrible. So the discovery part and there's the elements, you know, we all know about needs and we all know about wants, but you need to sort of be asking questions as well about capital, you know, money questions which a lot of people are frightened to ask, you know, so you also need to be asking questions about time as well and asking questions about authority. So the five questions that you could, you know, when we get someone to sit down and map out as many questions as they can of each one of those categories. So it's, you know, needs, wants, time, it's capital. And what they're doing as well is you're actually drawing out more information from the buyer or the prospect. But what the salesperson should be doing in there as well, it's not just asking questions, it's offering insights. And what I've learned over the years, and you're probably like myself, Art. We, we keep learning. I never stop learning. I keep learning. And I, I said to a client last week, I said, look, when you're in the discovery and asking these questions, I don't want you to be a sales professional. I don't want you to be, you know, trying to sell something. I want to put you to pretend that you are a podcaster. And I want you to pretend that the person in front of you, you're interviewing them and why, asking questions and having a conversation with them. Like, you listen to podcasts and interviews, you'll actually get more essence and more information from your buyer than if you're just in the presence of. I'm in here to have a transaction or whatever as well. So that's what I'm now enforcing with my clients, is that discovery part. Pretend you're an interviewer and you're interviewing someone on the radio or podcast and see how it goes from there.
- [15:28]
B
Well, actually, I think it gets back to what you mentioned earlier about the importance of mindset, and we're certainly both big on that. And the problem, I think, with a lot of salespeople is that they have their lists of questions or they know the questions that they should be asking. And it's more like going through a checklist or interrogation as opposed to the interview you're talking about. And I think one of the most important characteristics for salespeople to have. You can tell me your take on this is curiosity. Because if you're curious naturally about things, you're asking questions from a position of why do they say this? As opposed to, I just have to get this information.
- [16:13]
C
I love curiosity. I just, you know. You know, when I asked you to be on my show many years ago, I was curious to. To get into the great mind. And I. Curiosity. I think it's a bit of a gift. And I know that some people out there find it hard to be curious or to invoke curiosity. And it's a skill set that I think you need to work on, like empathy. And it needs practice. But to be really curious, you genuinely have to be interested in the other person. And I think that's the key, that it's. Listen to that other person, know who they are, know what their life is about, understand them. Because when you come really curious, every conversation is wonderful.
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B
Yeah, it really is part of our identity. Because if someone's identity is just all me focused, you're not going to be curious because you're mostly going to be focused on what I want to say and what I want as opposed to what about them. And I think I might have mentioned this on your show, but I came up with an acronym a couple years ago, and it's simply three letters, W, I, T. What interests them. And remind yourself of that anytime you start thinking about I want to talk about myself. And it's Especially. And actually, I'm kind of doing that right now. So anyway, back to you.
- [17:45]
C
You know, I. I would. I would have to say, to add to it, if anyone is getting into sales or, you know, one of the things I've learned, retail, you know, get into retail, because retail helps you have conversations with people, you know, it. It helps you to understand the different dynamics of all the other people. Like, I. I didn't say it there earlier, but I was a bus conductor, summer job. And if anyone can know what a bus conductor is, it was a person on a bus collecting fares. Upstairs, downstairs on the bus. They've probably seen, you know, like in England, the big red buses, and over in Ireland, it was green. But meeting so many different people from different walks of life when I was collecting fares and buses as a summer job and really sort of helped me to be a really good communicator with people. So I've always say, some people say to me, young people say, oh, look, I want to get into sales. You know, I want to drive fast car, or they do all this. I said, well, look, you start off maybe just get a job in retail in a coffee shop or work in your local grocery store, even though you feel, you know, it's not sales, but it is. It's the beginning of your craft.
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B
That's fascinating. Do buses still have bus conductors?
- [19:13]
C
No. I was one of the last, believe it or not.
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B
I bet you have some interesting stories from that. What, what's one of your more interesting stories? Sales or otherwise? From being a bus conductor?
- [19:26]
C
Yeah, there many, many stories being a bus conductor. You know, it. It was. You're meeting all different people at walks and off life, some troubles, you know, I can remember collecting fair once and two guys came down with a screwdriver to try and rob me. And I kind of went, oh, okay. And someone down came down after them and said, what are you doing? And he said, he says they were upstairs talking for. For a long time in the bus. He must have money now. We must have money now. So they were coming down to. To rob me one instance. Or you'd be driving in a rough part of. You know, there was parts of Dublin that the bus would go and you'd have to have a police escort at night because of the area. And you could be going down and it could be people on horseback racing, race and the bus or. Yeah, it was different places on it, but yeah, an education of all walks of life. All walks of life.
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B
The goofy person in me wants to say, you have a different kind of criminal over there, they're carrying screwdrivers instead of guns.
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C
But yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.
- [20:36]
B
So another concept that I like from your book, and I feel the same way, is the idea of letting people buy rather than trying to push somebody into buying. So explain what you mean by that.
- [20:55]
C
We are all really good at buying things. And if any of your listeners listen, you know, have bought a house or have bought a car and there was a salesperson involved, they probably will say, well, I wasn't sold to, you know, I bought this house or the car. There was a salesperson there who helped me along the way. And I always say that we're really good at buying things. But if you take it from the salesperson, the professional salesperson, they were thinking, okay, I'm going to show them a test drive or I'm going to show them this room. I'm going to say the schools around the corner, and I'm going to ask questions. And what they're doing is they're creating desire to ask. Just curiosity. It's the interest, you know, it's grabbing the attention. And it's you as a buyer, because of the interaction that you've had with that sales professional, allowed you to make the right decision for you that it was the right thing to purchase. So that's what I'm saying. When you don't try and sell something to someone, you actually walk them along a path for them to realize that it's the right decision and one of the greatest gifts. And I love this art. I know. It's the thing about sales that gets me. Knowing that the person has purchased before they've even realized they purchased themselves, Their subconscious mind has already kicked in. And it's delivery of what they're doing or saying or directions that actually is a trigger for you to know that they've already purchased. And when they've already purchased, that's when you ask for the order.
- [22:39]
B
What are some signs that they have told you that they've already gone there in their mind, but they just haven't verbalized it yet.
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C
Ownership. They've already, you know, the conversation that they're having is they've already in their mind, have placed ownership of owning it. Also, you may look at their eyes if you know that, you know, it's the sparkling eyes, it's the face lighting up, it's the, the, the rays of enthusiasm that they have that all align up, that there's these little elements to actually show, oh, okay, this person is. They're excited there. If it's a couple. They're giddy with each other. There's all these different elements on it that actually is showing them that. That they've actually purchased.
- [23:33]
B
They've already gone there in their mind's eye. And like in our business, if somebody already says, yeah, I would probably train my team in this location, and then we would provide it to these people over here. They've given you that signal that, yeah, they're. They're ready to do it. So it's important at that point to keep selling. Right, Joe?
- [23:57]
C
No, Stop selling. You know, I've often said to someone, you know, and I think we spoke about this, I. I know someone who was looking to buy insurance, and the salesperson sold it to them. And the guy said to me, he wouldn't shut up. All I wanted to do was buy the insurance. And he kept on talking. And I says, what he done was he actually talked so much, he bought it back off you. Because the person loses interest, they get flattened, and they go, I just want to get out of here. Yeah. So know when to.
- [24:32]
B
Yeah. So that point we run the last play, right? Ask. Ask for. For the order instead of buying it back. And. And what often happens, and we've both seen this, is that if you keep talking, you can create objections. And we have a very similar philosophy on objections. And you suggest turning them into questions. So talk about that and how that approach is effective.
- [24:59]
C
Yeah. The one thing about objections is I find the word very confrontational. And I think it's a word that we should remove from the sales process. And I believe it should be just replaced with concerns. Because if a salesperson sees it as an objection, it's a fight. You know, it's arms up. Here we go. But the professional sees it as a concern. And what are concerns? Concerns are questions that the person needs to be reassured about. So it's those objections should be concerns, and those concerns should be answered as questions. Because we can't answer something we don't know. We can only answer something if it's a question. And also going back to objections, people will offer smoke screens, and that's sometimes to buy time or unsure. And you should never answer a smoke screen, but you should just bypass it in a way to find out what the true concern is. And once you have that, you can
- [26:12]
B
answer it, agree totally. There are so many myths of sales and so many goofy techniques and suggestions that have been thrown around for years, such as you need to rebut objections or overcome objections. And if you do that, you're essentially Telling somebody they're wrong. And if you tell somebody they're wrong, they always agree, right?
- [26:36]
C
Yes. There's two laws that I go by. One is the. The law of challenging another person's beliefs. Never do it because that's confrontational. And the second law is the law of reciprocity. And that law is, you know, if you compliment someone for the first for what they say, they automatically and subconsciously bound to give you credit for the next thing that you say. And those two laws are very important because, you know, sales. I can remember being very younger, and I remember in. When we used to wear suits and, you know, it was like putting on the suit and the belt and the toy and looking back on it, I kind of went. It was like. It was. It was an arm or I was going into battle where I realized it's not. You're just going in to be a doctor to actually support and help somebody. So. Yeah, I would agree with you on that.
- [27:31]
B
Yeah. And going back to what we had said earlier, curiosity again, because if we hear that objection, instead of the first response being, oh, I've got to overcome it, how about letting curiosity kick in and start thinking, why did they just say what they did? Because what we heard wasn't the real reason. So going back to what you said, we. We need to question it. And when we come from a place of curiosity, as opposed to me focused, I need to overcome it, then we're. We're in a conversation as opposed to a confrontation. I should write that one down. Conversation.
- [28:14]
C
I look at it like this. I look at it like this. It's an onion. Every hand is. It's an onion. And an onion has many layers till you get to the core. So when someone comes up with a concern, you should just, you know, peel back the layers till you get to the core. And, you know, a simple way can be to someone saying, look, obviously you have a reason for saying A, B, or C. Do you mind if I ask what it is? And they may say what it is, and then you'll just delve in a little bit more to that and delve more into it in a communication, not just question answer, question answer. Because when you use the correct language, the person sees that you respect them and they see that it's conversational. And the more because of the rapport and the curiosity, they're at that stage that they'll open up to say why.
- [29:13]
B
It kind of goes back to what you talked about in your very first point. And that is when you have that rapport, people will be more comfortable answering those questions and being open in the conversation as opposed to this is just a sales interrogation or they're trying to get what they want.
- [29:29]
C
Selling trust.
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B
All your years in sales and training salespeople, going to put you on the spot here. What's one skill you think salespeople should focus on improving the most?
- [29:46]
C
Asking better questions in the beginning, I think, you know, we. Sales is so many different things to so many different people. And you know, there's a lot of people out there that have different methodologies and, you know, different frameworks and someone listening to this. There are different sales, you know, there's transactional sales, there's complex sales, there's high ticket price sales, and they all are different when you are working within each industry. And one of the things which I, you know, you're known because of your book, it's really homing in on those phone calls and, and you know, it's using the phone and that part of it that's, you know, and it's what a great book you have as well. And for me, it's really homing in on that discovery because that's where sales are lost and sales are won in that discovery, you know, and if you get that right, you give a great presentation. And when you get the great presentation correct, you know, you, you find a common ground for them to buy. But learn to have great discovery calls, learn to offer insights, share knowledge, and give wisdom. And you no longer, you jump from winging sales to becoming a professional salesperson to the next level, which is becoming a trusted advisor. And then a trusted advisor becomes a partner with your buyer, your prospect, your client for the rest of your life. So you're no longer seen as that salesperson, you're seeing as a partner for their organization as long as you're in business.
- [31:43]
B
That answer. And I'm not big on what's the one thing. And I get that question on podcasts too, and I answer it very similarly and probably not as eloquently as you did. But my simple answer is get information before you give it because that solves a lot of problems in sales and life, by the way, because sales is life. And think about if most people in the world just asked more questions before they just started talking, it would probably solve a lot of problems and help a lot of relationships.
- [32:16]
C
Yeah, yeah, I think there are a few. But if you think about it like the, the subconscious mind is picking up 2,000 data points before you even meet that person, you know, and, and you know, we often Use the analogy. It's like dating. You know, I didn't meet my wonderful, beautiful wife. I didn't walk up to her in a bar and say, I want to marry you. She would have run away. And sometimes I think she thinks she should have run away. But it's really a case of nurturing, building that relationship up. It's a beautiful career. I think more companies should spend more time in the sales department because if you look at manufacturing, the floor has SOPs, they're running perfectly. The accounts department is running through systems and processes. But in some organizations, the sales department is still unsure. You know, they don't know. They don't have a system or a process or framework in it. And everyone is selling their different ways. And I think organizations that want to be highly successful should focus on, okay, what is the standard that we should have in this sales part? Because when we have it, we can measure it.
- [33:39]
B
Yeah, that's right. When. And I wrote about this a couple weeks ago, when organizations have a Bob over in the corner, and I'm sure you've seen this, you go into an organization and they want you to do some training and they'll pull you aside and say, Bob has been here 25 years and we just kind of leave him alone because he does his own thing and he really doesn't follow our process. But he just gets by. And getting by means he's probably just barely hitting his numbers. But in fact, what he's doing is he's hurting the whole organization because he's not following the process that they have in place. And again, it kind of circles back to what you said right at the beginning. It's the difference between being a professional and looking at this as a craft as opposed to just something that you do or just something that you fell into and just kind of wing it.
- [34:30]
C
And I give you a story. I was with an organization and they had 400 locations around the world with 2,000 sales agents. And every sales agent was taught to sell the same. And the company was a multi million dollar organization. And what the beauty of it, because everybody was selling the same, the sales managers could manage it. They could find out where the weakest link was in the sales presentation, in the sales process and fix it. But because everybody was trained through the whole world of the organizations to sell the exact same way, the company had a system they could measure. Instead of having Bob over to the left and Johnny to the right and no one knowing what was going on. That's the secret of having a great system within an Organization.
- [35:40]
B
Exactly. And Joe, you have so much that you can share, and we should do this again in the meantime, let people know where they can get more of you. You have a podcast, you've got a book, you've got all kinds of material. So how can they get more of that?
- [36:01]
C
Well, they can cat the book@salescraftbook.com they can go to my website, Joe Dalton, ie. Or they can find me on LinkedIn. Joe Dalton on LinkedIn. That's where I hang out all the time, happy to write posts, make comments. And the podcast is the. It's changed over the years, so it's the sales craft podcast as well.
- [36:28]
B
Do go back and listen to his episodes. Not just mine that I'm on, but all of them, because he really goes deep with a lot of guests. And you can tell by just listening to Joe, a very authentic, likable, again, genuine guy that shares some incredible information. Now, one more thing, Joe. We have a regular feature on the show. All of my listeners know what time it is. The art of the sales. That's right. It's time for the quote of the day. Joe, would you please share a meaningful quote that is particularly impactful or has been on you and tell us why?
- [37:22]
C
Well, I know I said one call, but I was. Because of the conversation today. I've had so many quotes. So I'd like to share this quote with. Which was given to me when I was 18, and I've carried it all my life. And it's to do with what you said about curiosity. And I believe it on this, that if you like people, they like you. And if they like you, they will buy off you. And that was the first piece of sales advice I was given at 18, and I have carried with that with me through my whole sales process.
- [37:57]
B
You certainly embody it. You live it, and it has served you pretty well. So, Joe, thank you again so much for sharing your wisdom with us here today. You know where you can reach him. We'll also put that in the show notes. Everybody else, thank you so much for investing your valuable sales time with us today. Until next time, go out and make it your best sales day ever. I'm Art Sobchak.