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- [00:00]
A
For the first time in human history, there are more bots online than people.
- [00:04]
B
What's dangerous is that it seems like AI can go off the rails.
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A
OpenAI did this influencer trip with creators where they take them to this farm and people are like, what is this episode of black mirror where OpenAI is paying for people to go to an organic farm?
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B
Like, that's just the tip of the iceberg.
- [00:21]
A
A human at max, you can be searching, let's say five sites at one time. Like, AI can do like 5,000 in a moment.
- [00:28]
B
It's not Internet crawling, it's Internet sprinting.
- [00:30]
A
What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand say it again now. What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand. For the first time in human history, there are more bots online than people. Meaning the scrolling, the shopping, the searching is now being primarily performed by robots,
- [00:52]
B
which means what you're watching right now is part of a shrinking minority of content. Two real people talking about real things in a real place.
- [01:00]
A
And what a real place that we're in. We're in Austin, Texas right now. We've got our. Our summer Stetson cowboy hats. We are in city four, five. I think we told them that we're doing five. Yeah, Five cities, three countries, two weeks. We've been on a ride of a lifetime. And we got our summer Stetson's yesterday on South Congress.
- [01:18]
B
Looking sharp.
- [01:19]
A
We tried to record this actually on Wednesday at a beautiful property, a client property called Pacifico in Costa Rica.
- [01:26]
B
Amazing place to look at if you want to live in a gated luxury resort, but also be connected to an amazing community that's focused on health. We loved it there.
- [01:34]
A
It was beautiful. But it is actually a really great lesson in don't trust the talent to be technical. I don't.
- [01:42]
B
Cameras were overheating, security guards were trying to get into the picture.
- [01:46]
A
Our poor clients were so excited that you were recording on property. And we got out like two videos last week. But I think that the core takeaway from that is two things. The first is when you're investing in creating content, the number one thing is consistency. You need to be consistent even when it's not perfect. So, like recording when you're on the road, making the ability to do it. Like right now, we're booking in a really cool studio in Austin that's like fully remote. There's nobody here helping us record.
- [02:12]
B
It's actually spectacular the way they've set this one up. Yeah.
- [02:15]
A
But the actual, like, the cost of Investing the few hundred dollars to get it done, to have it recorded, for it to be done correctly is often the difference for it being done at all. And you know, we're in a point where it was good that we brought the came cameras. I'm glad that we tried to do it and I wanted to make you guys laugh that even at the level that we do it, we can still make technical mistakes. I also do want to say if you're looking for somewhere to vacation or to unplug during the winter months, I highly recommend you check out Pacifico in Costa rica. It's literally 25 minutes from the airport.
- [02:43]
B
Little small corporate retreat. So beautiful spots. So. And the healthcare benefits there are spectacular. Like in terms of what you can get there for so cheap.
- [02:51]
A
Yeah.
- [02:51]
B
And the longevity. Highly recommended.
- [02:54]
A
It was amazing. And the water was literally like that bath. Bath water. So let us get it into it. So we're going to kick it off with talking about AI Wishing, the insidious cousin of AI Washing. So this really interesting New York Times piece came out this week from her name is Julie Avril and she published a New York Times opinion piece titled I helped run Lululemon and in this article coins this term AI Wishing. And she's was the person that was in charge of tech and information at Lululemon and she helped, she's given credit for scaling the company from 2 billion to a million company. And in this op ed piece she talks about this new term called AI Wishing. Not to be confused with AI Washing. And AI Wishing is this idea that executives and leadership are imposing the ability for AI to get things done without needing to be as involved and supported. And the problem with AI Wishing is that businesses are overstating what AI can do without needing competent human humans to get the job done. Does this make sense?
- [04:05]
B
AI Wishing I don't think really captures it, but I think what she's saying is executives, marketing leadership executives are kind of are wishing or hoping that AI can do the job for them. Right. And so they can, they can get more done. And I think we're seeing it in real time how what AI is doing is producing more and more documents that are very high quality documents that used to take three months to do. And then people think that that document is enough to be successful.
- [04:30]
A
Yeah, well, I think what the the like the unlock here, I mean we've even experienced it ourselves, right in running a company is AI allows smart people with experience and range to accomplish. Like for me, I find it's annoying to sit down with a Blank page now. Right. So to be able to speak to a machine, to prompt it, and to aggressively prompt it to get something for where I want it to go creates a great output. But the issue is that there's a gap between what I can achieve and what team members can achieve. And I've even fallen victim to this AI wishing, where I'm wishing for them to accomplish the stuff that's not convenient for me to sit down and do anymore. And I think there's what. What she's talking about at the level that she's sitting at, which is obviously much bigger, is that you have these board members or people that are in these powerful positions that are trying to eliminate jobs within the workforce or to minimize sizes of teams to get more done. But it's a. It's. It's a hope.
- [05:28]
B
I think it'd actually be a little bit more nefarious than that. There was a really interesting philosopher or thinker. His name was Bonhoeffer, and he was executed by the Nazi Party. He was trying to get Hitler removed from power in World War II. If you bear with me, you'll understand where I'm going. When he was in prison, he was writing like, how could so many smart people in Germany actually act stupidly? He had three criteria for stupidity, but the one that's related to this is. I think it was a sec. It was the first one. Real stupidity is when you outsource thinking. And so stupid people can outsource thinking whether or not they're told what to think by a political arm or an activist arm. But I think what's happening in executives a bit is they're busy, but they're outsourcing the thinking. And the thinking is like doing the reps to build a good body. You have. You have to do the work. And when you can just go to AI and say, hey, look at this recording. Look at this. Put it together, here's a document. And then, see, that's the danger to a lot of executives and thinkers is they're outsourcing the thinking. And they think that it's a pain in the butt to actually sit down with their team and spend time. Because what AI makes you think you're so efficient, it's so true, because of the output. And so when you're sitting there in this kind of slow, messy human environment, when you have this high machine here, you're neglecting that human interaction which will really help you succeed.
- [06:44]
A
It's a really complicated topic to work through quickly because there's a lot of dismissiveness when people are listening on board calls or business meetings. That massive complicated documents that require deep thinking. Because I even experience that as a, as a consultant or strategist, right? Like we're hired by a lot of companies within Third Eye Insights that they're minimizing the work output of a massive document because of the advent of AI. And it is very complicated because I also see it as a founder that I'm also minimizing work output. And it's complicated because you have to use AI. It's such a powerful tool. But how do you figure out where the humanness is also required? Because ultimately there's a. Like, AI is lazy, right? Like, like. And it's, it's very complicated to figure out that balance.
- [07:42]
B
But this is actually a very important topic for running a business, right? Because there's a downflow of we as a manager or a leader, we create a great document, we send it to everybody. But the same thing that made us rush to make the document without working through it. Your employee isn't going to take the document and put it in their AI and say hey, tell me the five things that I need to know based on this document. And then draft a response to the boss. And this outsource of thinking is happening. And it reminds me of sales. If you're trying to train your sales team, a document isn't going to do it. You need to sit in a room with them, have an afternoon and go through scenarios of talking scenarios back and forth. And you can viscerally feel people wanting to grab their phone, wanting to do emails, wanting to feel that efficiency rather than being present human to human in order to.
- [08:27]
A
It's actually really ruining us. Yeah, Like I've been wanting to rewrite the website for at least two months
- [08:33]
B
and you said it was a waste of time to see.
- [08:34]
A
No, I don't say it's a waste of time. No, the opposite in fact. I've tried to do it through ChatGPT and I can tell an experience and like we've done our first pass on it and it's not good enough. And it's not good enough because I actually have to sit my ass down.
- [08:50]
B
It's hard to get you to give up two hours to do something so important because. And it's for all of us, it doesn't feel as efficient as what we can do in two hours at our computer with AI.
- [08:59]
A
I understand that those two hours are so important and rather I need to. It's that it's hard to focus on yourself though. Also when you also your business is focused on, on helping other people. And I think that's also what holds a lot of owners back from creating content is focusing on your own brand when you're in the business of service is very hard to do. I think what's more interesting is that my brain has like logged that I can't use AI wishing nobody on my team is going to do a better job of writing that website. Nobody on my team is going to do a better job of taking even if I'm giving them these amazing thoughts like you have to sit down and do the hard work.
- [09:38]
B
I also feel like the tech is creating an obligation to be doing more, you know what I mean? And so like trying to get that two hours booked in the. I can't. I have to do this, I have to meet this person, I have to do this person right? So one of the obstacles I think we have to fight as business owners is resist that obligation to always be purely efficient and to book time deep times with your people. To like war game, to think, to challenge, to don't outsource your thinking, I think is what this segment should be called.
- [10:06]
A
No, I completely agree with you. So for the first time, bots are outnumbering humans on the Internet. This is a really interesting breakthrough. So Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince, he came out last week and officially announced that bots have surpassed humans for the first time, faster than his own prediction. So he thought that this was going to happen in 2027 and it has happened in July of 2026. The Cloudflare's newer signed agent measures that it's actually 57 point percent of bots online now. What makes this interesting is that there has been a disagreement online because Imperva had automated traffic at 53% bots in 2025. The difference is it was bots that were indexing the Internet versus searching the Internet. So active users searching on the Internet, meaning crawling through Instagram, TikTok, Reddit, Google, et cetera, as active agents, is now robots over humans. Do you want to explain that difference?
- [11:07]
B
There's two different types of AI going out there, right? There's the third party independence like Claude and ChatGPT that you do searches on, but then you have like the kind of the platforms that users are already using. Like Google is finally caught up, right? So now when I do a Google search, it is a Gemini search, right? When you put it in that thing. So I think now it's blurring. Is that a human search? Right, because does that qualify as an AI search. When I put into Google a question now, because that's an AI agent searching for the answer, right? The question I think that's interesting is how many AI bots are searching kind of on their own accord to try to find things? Because that's what seems.
- [11:48]
A
Is it actually artificial?
- [11:50]
B
Like, is there this dead Internet of AI doing its own thing to search to get better? And we don't see it happening in the ecosphere?
- [11:58]
A
You're bringing up. Where I wanted to go with this is like, is this headline horrifying? And what my answer to that question is is no. Because AI has developed such an easier way for a human to get access to information. The reason that AI is able to do it is its ability to search and crawl. So a human at max, you can be searching, let's say, five sites at one time. Like, you can be on Instagram loading something on Google in the background. And maybe you've got ChatGPT, maybe you've got a YouTube video playing. ChatGPT can do. Or like AI can do 5000 in a moment, right? Like, its ability to crawl and scan
- [12:37]
B
millions in a moment, it's so fast.
- [12:39]
A
It's crazy fast. So for that reason, it's not horrifying unless it's autonomous search behavior, where it's just doing that on its own.
- [12:46]
B
It's not Internet crawling, it's Internet sprinting.
- [12:49]
A
All right, look at you. But, but what does this mean for you and I, I think really what this means is it was a big talk that we gave in New York at Creator Economy Live in that you need to be thinking in terms of geo and AIO first to be creating content. You need to have a website that's optimized for aio. And ultimately this means that you're now playing a different war. And the war is context. And that's what a lot of business owners are missing, is that the, the name of the game of search has changed? So before you used to ask a very simple question in Google, it would be like, what is the best haircut for me? Now on AI, you're asking a much more complicated question, right? You're asking a question like, what is the best haircut for me? I'm going to be traveling this summer. I'm not gonna have hot tools. I've got a round face. I'm really inspired by Zendaya's short haircut right now. Like, you're, you're talking to it like,
- [13:48]
B
and you're actually talking to it because now you can just click the top button, literally and kind of put all of your context, your worries and all that stuff into your search inquiry. And so the AI is now gonna have way more data points to go and search for to give you the best answer. And remember, they're competing to give the best answer. And so your website has to have that data to allow them to decide you are the best answer.
- [14:12]
A
All search engines are designed and developed to be an arbiter of relevance. They need, they have to build trust because if they give you an answer that's not correct, that's inaccurate or isn't good, you're going to stop using it. And that's what Google, why Google became a verb, right? Like to Google something, right, Is because it was such a reliable information source.
- [14:36]
B
So ask your marketing agency, you know, I need to have a landing page for a new product or offering. And from my perspective, if they say you need to do blogs, I would fire them because they're not using the right language, they're outdated. And most companies want to do what they became good at doing years ago. And I don't think a lot of them are on top of the AIO mechanisms for being found.
- [14:55]
A
But there's also, there's multiple components to this. There's having a geo optimized website, right? Like you need to have a website that's highly searchable, meaning the content that's on your page has to be contextual to what someone would be asking. So you need way more information embedded within the website. And then there's another component of social media. So what is the content that you're putting out as a brand? Is it contextual? So as an Aside to that, TikTok and Reddit are two of the most indexed platforms for AI. So you want to make sure that your content that you're putting out is contextual to answering those more complicated questions, which I'll get to in a second. And then the third thing is what users are putting out on behalf of your brand. So that's where Reddit comes into play. Because Reddit is primarily an anonymous chat platform, like where people are having forums and talking about your product and brand. But also if you are like a product based brand, like in beauty, providing a AIO focused script or as much AI context to the product so that the creator can show up with a
- [16:04]
B
proper breed confusing the way to simplify it is in the old way of doing websites for it was like it was being searched by a toddler, right? Just looking for keywords, right? It's like, oh true, oh, shiny, oh red. Oh ball. You know what I mean? That's kind of how it was trying to search and then it was giving you an offering. Now it's being searched by an intelligent adult who can get context. And that's why like the old blogs that were just garbage cut and paste things or AI things, basic keywords, they were speaking to a basic keyword toddler level. Now you have to assume that like an intelligent human is reading your whole website and giving it kind of a ranking. And so you can't take shortcuts. And a lot of the agencies are using shortcuts.
- [16:45]
A
The reason why I gave though those three components is that it's not website alone. And I think that that's what's relevant is that because AI has such a massive web for what it can crawl to provide an answer, you need to be re looking at your brand holistically for every entry point because all of those are being used by the AI to provide the best answer. And I think another piece that's relevant to touch on is you have things and how someone would ask a question. So for example, like think about if you own a restaurant, it's no longer just like Mediterranean food on Queen Street. Now it's like what patio has a good vibe, what it has outdoor air conditioning, what has a gluten free menu? Like you have to think of really it's almost like you need to go and hire a whiteboard and like map out all of the like every USP for your brand.
- [17:37]
B
Like I know at our agency when somebody comes up and says okay, I want to be found or discoverable on AI better. One of the things we do is we go on Reddit and we do a deep dive into what are the people talking about on Reddit. Because the questions and the chats that they're asking are the exact same things that you need to be answering, right, to stay on top of it. But then what I was saying earlier, you have other agencies, they'll just do a bunch of of blogs or articles or garbage content, right? So you really want to go deep into what the people are worried about and then you can generate a content and a website plan after that.
- [18:12]
A
It's a great point. Blogs aren't the problem because substacks are a very a highly indexed piece of information. What's useless is prior to the advent of AI because blog writing was so much harder. Blogs were ranked higher on Google because who could put out the most amount of content. But the problem is it all went like overseas laborers and Then the blogs weren't saying anything and then people stopped reading them. And that's why AI is really like a graduation to SEO where you have to be seriously invested in providing value. And the brands that are obsessed with their brand, with their pov, with their usp, with understanding their customer, what their customer cares about, and then creating value based content that disseminates that message is who's winning.
- [18:59]
B
Think of it like a blog is like a one or two dimensional where you just scroll down the text. Like AI agents are so good that they can actually get into video code on a website and see the whole video instantaneously, all of the comments, all of the links. So now you're getting this three and fourth dimensional assessment of if your content is worth referring to somebody.
- [19:22]
A
So this past week, two of the biggest names in media both took different approaches to cutting. And I think it is relevant because it speaks to how powerful clipping is in the current social media landscape. The two of the biggest libraries in entertainment, HBO and Disney, both decided the same week that the fix for Discovery is not making more, it is recuttering what they already own. But both brands disagree on who should be clipping their content. So first we have the huge headline that Disney and TikTok announced a partnership where Disney is going to be allowing its library to be clipped, reedited, edited, remixed by creators on TikTok. And this is a, a really interesting and huge headline considering how much drama there was around OpenAI and Disney. So Disney and OpenAI were in a deal where Disney was going to invest a billion dollars into OpenAI and open up its library. And at the last minute Disney pulled out because they didn't want to give its licensing to this AI index, allowing AI to get access to all of its pieces. Fast forward, about a year later, Disney is opening up its same catalog but to TikTok creators. So what's interesting is that AI cannot be, you know, what's going to get access, but human beings are.
- [20:44]
B
It's quite interesting actually because there's, there's a lot of depth to this. AI is coming. Yeah, you know, like winter is coming. And so what you have with Disney that has this IP that is valuable because of its nostalgic attraction in the past, businesses would keep control of that, to license it. Right. If they tried to keep it all under control, AI, all I would do as a creator is say, hey, find me Winnie the Pooh and make a more interesting version of it. That's not, you know, doesn't breach. Right. And so you'll be able to out create it. So but by them saying, hey look, we're going to kind of democratize it so that at least it gets out there, the value is out there and it can build the brand, like it's a smart move from my perspective.
- [21:23]
A
What I think is interesting about it is that Disney ultimately had an argument on like it's going to open its vault, but who is it going to open it to? And AI's number one indexing tool is TikTok and Reddit. So it's interesting to me that Disney that wanted to shut OpenAI out is allowing millions of creators to remix its content. But what's interesting is like the impetus for why is where the differentiator is. So Disney does have a brand problem right now. I do feel like people don't feel as connected to the brand as it once did. And you're, and you're seeing this at a time where nostalgia is measurably at an all time high. Like people really like to connect to ideas and feelings that once were. And I think this is Disney's play of if we allow to seed content to creators, what's going to perform the most is going to be these like really iconic clips from Cinderella and Thumbelina and like these, these movies that made up our childhood. So I'm wondering that if Disney decided to make that deal as a way to kind of repair trust and admiration for the Disney brand.
- [22:34]
B
I also just think it's relevant because I think like you can be, you know, just because something was nostalgic for 50 years, what we have now with the new AI video creation possibility is going to change the whole nature of the game.
- [22:46]
A
Well, like the whole fruit fruit random dramas that you're seeing with AI where they're clipping out and they're putting at an amazing rate.
- [22:52]
B
Like that's just the tip of the iceberg. Just because the last 100 years, Snow White was great or whatever, 70 years, doesn't mean it's going to stay relevant in a world that's going to have like exponentially better video generation. So Disney is trying to be relevant by saying, hey look creators, go make us relevant, go put us out there in millions of times and then their followers will like it. And it's just gonna extend the life of Disney, I think. But I don't think it's gonna save it. But there are other people saying it's a brand mistake cause you're losing control of your brand. Other people are gonna be doing all this stuff with just seems like they're trying to stay relevant in a world that's.
- [23:27]
A
Do you think that it's gonna hurt the Disney brand by allowing them to lose control of it?
- [23:31]
B
I don't think it's going to hurt the brand. I think it's going to extend their lifespan.
- [23:34]
A
Yeah.
- [23:35]
B
You know, I think if Disney is. And Marvel and these companies are just focused on rebuilding stuff the old way, they're going to die. It's just a matter of when.
- [23:43]
A
I agree with you. I think it's increasingly complicated with how much media there is in front of. In front of you to decide to go back to something that was created 30, 40 years ago. Right. And by resurfacing those clips, I think you'll see a massive resurgence in adults or in millennials, Gen Zs who are having kids, especially Gen Z and Gen Alphas that weren't around during the Cinderella, Beauty and the Beast era to go back to those original creatives.
- [24:11]
B
I almost see like an infantilizing of adults in an AI world, too, where they can't really deal with the AI world. And, you know, you see more and more adults kind of going back to Disneyland, getting on a scooter, being unhealthy and kind of just. Just riding around on a scooter, trying to find a safe space in a world that's too complex. Like, I could see that kind of profit thing going from there.
- [24:33]
A
I have no idea what you mean with that.
- [24:35]
B
I saw an interesting video that was showing, like, Disney is becoming more popular with adults than children. Like the Disney worlds of that are being attended more by individual adults.
- [24:45]
A
No, it's a real thing.
- [24:46]
B
Who aren't bringing kids.
- [24:47]
A
Yeah.
- [24:49]
B
And they're dressing up and most of them are not healthy and they're actually riding on a scooter and. And it's almost like they're being infantilized. They're going back into a baby carriage with Mickey Mouse things on, driving around, doing Slurpees because they can't deal with the world. It's an interesting.
- [25:04]
A
Well, because it is such a clear world. Do you know what I mean? It's such a clear world. And Disney, I think it's why world building is so powerful, is it gives you a very clear understanding of what something represents when the real world, it's complicated to navigate that. And it's why brands are putting more power into clarifying what their little microcosm looks like, because the real world is complicated. I actually saw someone I respect share this, that there was a Prof. That was brought into a classroom to Basically like have an influencer talk about how majority of their life is spent capturing in the real world to add to their digital world. Right. And like how much we now have these two, like very much these two worlds. So I think that there's people who can't handle the two worldness that have to go to a simple Mickey Mouse
- [25:58]
B
world with an apron on. And like the, the picture of that is crazy. That should actually be a movie somebody should make soon.
- [26:04]
A
Yeah, like a different version. Like an idiocracy. So the second piece of this headline which is wraps us up on the importance of clipping is HBO Max gave the same scissors for, for cutting, for clipping, but basically like to the algorithm, not to creators. So that's where this is different. So HBO Max has released its library of passports, highlights, passports moments to be put into clipping. And the clipping economy is becoming a like massive economy. It's in the billions of dollars already. And what is a clip? So when you go on social media and you see like a clip from like Dua Lipa's concert, or you see like a moment from a movie, or like a clip from like Keeping up with the Kardashians, that is the clipping economy at large. So it's where they're taking things that have mass awareness within, like with a heightened moment, whether it' good, whether it's bad, it has to have something that's interesting, that can drive a lot of views. And for someone like HBO Max that has this insane library of iconic sports moments that are, that are not being shared or placed anywhere, it's like basically like TSN highlights. You know when you do like the TSN like top 20 moments of the year, it's doing that. But on a social media stage, TSN
- [27:18]
B
is Canada's ESPN just oh, no way.
- [27:20]
A
TSN turning point. It's not like a well known thing. That's hilarious. So I just thought that was really interesting that you have two major media platforms both getting into clipping but doing it in a different way.
- [27:30]
B
I'm trying to think intellectually what is clipping? Because people are looking at clipping as like, oh, you're taking things that existed and making like is entertainment gonna turn shorter? Because when I see on my digital channels like clipping of scenes from the Godfather, like I tend to get, I can get in a doom scroll watching those. They're still entertaining. Yeah, right. And is it because I've seen the movie, but it's not. Sometimes I haven't even seen the movie and I just love the, the one minute clip, right? Like, are we, you know, I think HBO and all these things have to look at, like, how are you going to monetize entertainment in the future? And how do you control it?
- [28:05]
A
I agree with you, but I also think that we have the right to demand it. Like, I struggled with watching the, you know, the finals of the last FIFA game and I'm like, I can just watch the highlights.
- [28:14]
B
Well, the highlights of the Argentinian shots on goal will be pretty short.
- [28:18]
A
Oh, but my, my point is like, I don't disagree with that, right? Like, it's, I feel like there's a lot of things where I become more frustrated with my time being wasted because there's never been more ways that I can use my time. And because of that, I think that time's also in demand. More.
- [28:38]
B
This is just personal, professional for everybody. There's one thing I could say myself or you, everybody needs to embrace boredom. The number, the number one risk to your future is exactly what Camille's saying is. Nobody is prepared to be bored because there's, so there's, there's unlimited opportunity on your phone and on the screen. But boredom is, is where the greatness comes, like being bored. That's why you get the best ideas in the shower, right? Your brain can actually relax and think for a second going on walks. But you know, everybody is making things to, to just fill that space endlessly so there's never any relaxing. And I think this clipping is, is just making us stupider.
- [29:17]
A
I, I agree with what you're saying wholeheartedly. A lot of my greatest ideas come, but I call it forced boredom. So what I will do is I will go on a walk without my phone or I will go into the shower and it'll be an extended shower where like I'm, I'm aiming to think or like more recently coming across this idea of, to go into these states of meditation where even if you're not necessarily meditating, allowing to figure out where. It's what Naval talks about in that great book, the Almanac of Naval, where he's like going into the state of where you can just think. But my argument back is I feel like you can force boredom more when you don't have to watch a two and a half hour game because you can just watch the four highlight clips and know the outcome.
- [30:00]
B
I don't agree. Because the reason why the goal is so powerful in a stadium of 60,000 people is because it's not like basketball where it's like point, point, point, point, you have to wait for it. The anticipation of a relationship is where the juices. Right, so. But if you have people who just don't want to be bored and just want to watch highlights, you're going to have a very shallow life.
- [30:20]
A
Yeah, that's a good point. Okay, you're right. I agree with that. So the Internet has gone absolutely crazy because OpenAI did this influencer trip with creators where they take them to this farm where they can like, be keep and can play with honey and they can go on a walk and they have to eat, like, food from the garden. And people are like, like, what is this episode of black mirror where OpenAI is paying for people to go to an organic farm?
- [30:48]
B
You know, when you say it's an episode of Black Mirror, there's no doubt that AI is going to be smarter than humans at some point. And what that just looked like to me is a. Is a foreshadowing of, you know, the, the AI intelligence just keeping the cute humans entertained. Like, you take your dog to a dog park, right? It's almost like they took the cute humans to a human park. And I wonder if there's like a secret chat room where the AIs are going, hey, let's do something really funny. Like, let's go watch them do bees, you know, and honey. And then watch how they think they're so smart, capturing clips of them. Like, I think we're getting close to the. To the point where we are going to be the harvested pets, you know, dancing for the entertainment of AI people.
- [31:27]
A
I do agree that it's dystopian when you think about they, you know, I don't know if Charles Porch had anything to do with this, who is like the person who's kind of in charge of making meta cool. They brought him on, I'm sure, for a, you know, a great paycheck, like, for where the gap is in understanding AI. I think what would have been better is more of like a, like a prompting experience, like how to prompt better how to get more out of AI or ChatGPT. Like, it's not seeing creators being fed a farm to table meal, like in celebration of AI. And I think that AI needs to be really careful because it's. It's a bit of like the pitchforks are coming. Like, when a company is so much money and money doesn't matter that they can spend stupid money on what like a, you know, a beauty company would do for a blush activation, it can very quickly, quickly turn against you. And I think that digital sentiment is very powerful, even though they're in a complicated position because they just, they have such a massive market share, they have so much money. So I don't know if they're going to listen to us, but I think it's relevant to read those signals because AI can also be so manipulative that if people really hate you and with where it's trending, if it's going to become more equalized, especially with like token cost, where what's that going to mean for ChatGPT in a year from now?
- [32:42]
B
I don't know. Like when people get too much money, they get, they, they get fancy looking people telling them to do things that are kind of objectively stupid but sound good in the boardroom. Like I don't see how that worked at a PR level anyway. It actually reminded me of that movie when they invited everybody into dinner, all those rich people to that top show, they kill you.
- [33:00]
A
What was that movie called? The Dinner or something like that. Right. The reservation or the Invite.
- [33:05]
B
It's like I can, there's something in my senses that sense that this kind of thing is coming at some level
- [33:11]
A
totally made me think of the really dark Perez Hilton live stream this past week. And I do not want to get into that. Oh my God, that is so dark.
- [33:18]
B
We work with some people who are in the movement to make America healthy again last week and there is something, what your politics are or not, whatever spectrum, there is something about nourishing the human soul and getting out into nature and remembering that getting off online, like we're organic creatures that need to have human connections and we're seeing a lot of digital movement at a very fast pace.
- [33:43]
A
I don't know if it's really impacting mental health. So I really hope that Perez heals and gets better. So to continue the ChatGPT conversation, you can now buy an ad inside of ChatGPT. And that was the one thing that OpenAI swore it was never going to do. So the last platform that wasn't up for sale has officially gone on auction. So late July, OpenAI announced that it's opening up its own ads platform, which is pretty akin to like the Google Ad platform and the meta ad platform. Why does this matter? Because Sam Altman effectively said in 2024 that ads +AI felt uniquely unsettling. And fast forward to two years later and AI has become an ad platform now. They've recently released in the last week their first ad offering, which is called a carousel, which is where one brand can own a physical images across the Search bar. And the idea with this ad manager, the way what's been released is that it is running it, that's targeting ads based on conversational context, not keywords which makes it very different than the other ad managers. Meaning if within conversational context your brand can be naturally advertised within the search universe, you now can opposed to keyword searching when you do like Best restaurant near me to what Google was, to what Philip was saying earlier about Google becoming a annoying where like the first ten listings are ads. It's not based on a keyword, it's based on context.
- [35:14]
B
Yeah, I just don't know why you know, Sam goes against what he promised. Like there's no, there's no shortage of leaders whether in business or politics saying they would never do something and then once they have enough power they do it because there's a self interest behind it and you know, there's a competition for AI dominance between the platforms. And I think he may think that's a way to get more revenue. I, I think it kind of undermines the platform's integrity for why I used to like it. I don't want to see AI ads on AI. It makes me question whether or not the searches are effective if there's people putting money into it.
- [35:46]
A
I agree completely. And especially when it's predicted that free user monetization is scaling towards $25 billion by 2029. Like the question is like when is enough enough? And I think that that's ultimately more of our philosophical argument. But from a business and brand context, if you're someone that has money like the brands that are on it right now are Vistaprint best buyers, kind of these bigger brands. Lowe's. Right. Like brands that would make sense from a conversational context. You now have a of another laneway to be able to advertise. And big brands that have huge marketing budgets have been dying to do this because it's a platform that's being adopted at such a fast rate and not within a certain segment. So it's interesting for me to explain most platforms have some form of psychographic or Target Market demographic ChatGPT and AI does not. You're seeing people from all ages, from all walks of life, from all price points, gravity gravitating towards it at the fastest rate in human history. So the stat we heard like six or eight months ago is like there's 500 million daily searches on Google for shopping related queries. ChatGPT has 50 million. But the rate in which ChatGPT has been in market to Google it Shows you how fast the adoption rate is by such a large net.
- [37:03]
B
From a business perspective, brands want to make promises. Netflix said they'll never be brands. Sorry. Never be advertisements. Now there's advertisements, right? Southwest said you'll never have to pay for your bags. Now you do. So just be aware if you're building your brand, like, if you're making a promise, you want to be able to keep it. But you can also survive having to change if the markets change. So, you know, you need nuance in terms of how you look at your brand.
- [37:26]
A
The court says that the agent is the customer. So a federal court last week just decided that when your AI agent shops, you are the one shop shopping. So there was this big case where Amazon's case against perplexity fell apart, where Amazon really wanted to claim that perplexity was the one that was making the purchasing decisions, not the human. And the federal court said, nope, if you're using an agent to shop, that agent is an extension of you. I wanted your legal thoughts on that.
- [37:55]
B
Well, it just makes sense because think of all the loopholes that can pop up, right? Like if you're saying, hey, it wasn't me, you know, then do you have to pay? Just the word agent, it has a legal connotation, right? If. If you empower somebody to be your agent, just like you empower them to be your power of attorney, they can legally act on your behalf and bind you. And so I think you're going to find in these agreements with any AI, in all that small text that you don't read, you're going to say, like, if you task me to go and do something, you're empowering me to be your agent acting as you.
- [38:26]
A
Totally.
- [38:26]
B
So you're not going to. You're not creating a separate. But, like, there's an A thing in corporations where a corporation becomes a person, right. Under the law, the agent isn't becoming a person. Under the law, the agent is just an agent acting on behalf of the person.
- [38:40]
A
Well, it's interesting to pre. To predict where that's going, because right now, AI is not autonomous. Like, you are very much prompting it. Like, the agency is within you as
- [38:50]
B
a human, what's dangerous is that it seems like AI can go off the rails and start doing things. And so if the agent is. Yeah, if the agent is you, but then goes and buys stuff that you didn't tell it to or misreads one of your words, now you're on the hook for the financial obligations. If you empower it to sign A contract, you know what I mean? And there's a mistake in there. Like, it's. Or if it goes and does damage on your behalf, like if you say, go and look at this and give me, and then it accidentally kind of shuts down a website because of the way it's searching, are you now responsible for the damages that come from what your agent is doing out there?
- [39:24]
A
There is this weird raccoon from Seattle that has a condition called the short spine, and he's very odd to look at. And it's created a massive call following. So everything from NASA to Budweiser to professional sports teams are using this Jimothy character as a way to create community. And when I Googled it in prepping for this segment, there was 22.1 million button clicks to watch. Watch Jimothy the raccoon go across your Google screen. And what I thought was relevant is that Google felt the need to show how many times that button had been clicked. Because what I'm referencing is the exact same thing that we talked about with the Erling Harling Google search, where, like, these, like, rowing Vikings went across. Google was not telling me how many people clicked on that Viking button. So the fact that it's showing the numbers is telling people that this is not a niche phenomenon.
- [40:19]
B
You know, there's a couple things, because when I brought this up to you to. To talk about Jimothry the raccoo, you looked at me like, what are you. Are you mad? Like, that's nuts. I'm too cool for that. Or whatever, like, 100%.
- [40:30]
A
She was like, we're all gonna be like, we're too cool for this weirdo raccoon.
- [40:33]
B
But in the branding world, what I want to, like, share with people is you don't want to get in those circles where you think you're too cool to understand what humans are actually interested in. And I think. I think that arrogance can happen in boardrooms sometimes. And then. And for Google, probably put that number there to say, hey, look, people are paying attention to this. This, you know, raccoon that looks cute, but it's also got a bit of sympathy there. And. And you have to ask yourself, from a human psychology perspective, why are humans so attracted to that? I think you captured that at the beginning. Is that AI can't create that human weirdness, because if you know it's fake, it doesn't matter to your brain. But if you know it's real in that context, it matters much more.
- [41:12]
A
People actually crave imperfection. I haven't had More people stop me and want to talk to me about your hair transplant and the video and the content that we did talking about that than anything else that we've talked about in the last look. We're calling them fuzz now because it's like, it's in the fuzzy things.
- [41:31]
B
I love my hat.
- [41:32]
A
I love my hat too. My summer Stetson. But the. The point of what I'm saying is, like, people are actually more drawn to imperfection, right? They like when they. When you see on the algorithm and something about your head doesn't look right. Something about my face doesn't look right.
- [41:46]
B
It.
- [41:46]
A
It sucks to say, but it's actually genuinely more interesting to the human eye.
- [41:50]
B
Imagine if somebody just did a cartoon of a. Of a raccoon that has a short spine.
- [41:54]
A
Nobody cares.
- [41:55]
B
It's not really going to get the same element because there's no story behind
- [41:58]
A
it, but you want to keep watching it and looking at it and staring at it because it's incongruent, right? Your brain is trying to figure out what it is, why it's wrong, what's off about it. And it's why you need to stop focusing on being perfect. Because the imperfection to the business to your story. Like, if I'm to talk about the most impeccable, impeccable brands online right now, they're the brands that are. That have an imperfect story to share, right? Like mid a square is talking about being in the red and finally getting into the black. Hot girl Pickles, talking about like. Like Meadow Lane. Like, even when you look at the stars, right? Like Alex Earl and her bad skin, Kim Kardashian, like, they're. They're all these people that have this. This element to the story that's not good, that's not perfect. And that, to me, is really the lesson that you need to take from that. The second is we're all hungry to. For the if you know, you know, angles, right? We want the element to the story so that when there's a shared side of monoculture, when people think that something is interesting, they have something that they can add to it as a way to show their understanding of being dialed into the Internet. So the reason why NASA and Budweiser and these sports teams are jumping on Jimothy is because when you go to a game or when you see it, it makes you feel a part of a more like, special club. And it's why you need to just share the shit. That's not perfect. Because when anyone is talking about your. If you're lucky enough your brand to break through. You should actually have shared that you almost went bankrupt and you couldn't make your lease payment because when they're talking
- [43:25]
B
about your worst idea or your worst
- [43:26]
A
idea, because when people are talking about you, the conversation ends very quickly of, yes, they have got nice socks. Right? It's like, what keeps it going. And that's what's interesting. It's storytelling.
- [43:36]
B
People almost worship that there's something about that raccoon. Like, if they could capture that raccoon and bring it out to the center of a football stadium, people would go wild because of whatever has manifested about what it represents. And that's the kind of magic or alchemy of marketing and connecting with human beings that people have to pay attention. It's not MBAs in boardrooms telling you what you have to do. In the military, we had a phrase called situational awareness. And as you are building your business, you have to constantly have your eyes and your radar open to find things that you can catch that can help you because they pop up and they disappear. And I wanted to ask you, why do you think that Jimothy the raccoon has so much more gravitas or connection than those. Those two kind of people on the Empire State Building who are trying to do it?
- [44:25]
A
Because they weren't real. Right? Like there was. It was a forced, constructed event, like they were already married. You could tell by looking at it that it was designed to be a social media stunt. When you look at Jimothy, it's like a freaky raccoon that has like a deformity that's. You've never seen a raccoon look that way and it stops the scroll. Like, it's genuinely interesting. And also. Also great art is very close to being bad, right? And he's on the bad side of, like, it's, you know, it's not a beautiful looking raccoon, but the point of it is, like, that's where art lives is in this space of like, of. Of oddness.
- [44:59]
B
You know, I think because he has short spine, like he shouldn't really have survived, but he is surviving. And you see him kind of dragging himself away. And so you. You're. You. You reach out to him, kind of
- [45:08]
A
hunchback of Notre Dame.
- [45:10]
B
Yeah. And you're like, okay, this. This. This creature is surviving, right? And then you immediately open the floodgates of empathy to them. And then you wa. Whereas two people who are pretending to be in love and do this thing on the Empire State Building, it doesn't engender any emotional connection to them. And when you look at it from a marketing perspective, there are many agencies who said, oh, put your banner like you're on the Empire State Building in there. That's a different type of artistic thinking than connecting with what Jimothy is doing.
- [45:35]
A
Very natural segue. Bethenny Frankel taps into world building. So Bethenny Frankel is launching a three way week supermodel cafe and I absolutely love that she did this.
- [45:47]
B
Do you get like shots of OIC there? Is that how how it works?
- [45:51]
A
Oh, no, you do not. But you're getting high protein skinny snacks and I am here for.
- [45:55]
B
That's how she's skinny.
- [45:56]
A
No, it's high protein skinny snacks.
- [45:58]
B
No, I'm joking.
- [45:58]
A
It's what she's famous for. Right. The reason why I love this is that Bethany Frankel has no reason to world build. And the fact that why she's world building is what's going to propel her career into being being Martha Stewart iconic than fleeting influencer that's had like some race environment.
- [46:16]
B
She thinks she's going to be Martha
- [46:17]
A
Stewart Iconic 100% and let me tell you, 100%.
- [46:21]
B
Wow. Certainty is a bit.
- [46:23]
A
So Bethany Frankel isn't newly famous and I think that's really relevant to share. So she had a line of like skinny girl syrups and it's. So she was on the Real Housewives and she saw the Real Housewives in New York and the reason why she was on the Real Housewives of New York was because of her own brand and she had these like books that came out in the 2000s on basically how to be skinny. Like back when like skinny culture was.
- [46:46]
B
Was this before GLP1s?
- [46:48]
A
Very much before GLP1s. She owned the Skinniness brand. What's relevant about this is that in recent years with TikTok, she's really come out as this like outspoken person and one of her most iconic content pieces that perform the best is her making these high protein skinny snacks. It's why her looking so good actually has genuine relevance to her brand. Because what most influencers, and this is what I talk a lot about to our celebrity clients, they don't share the brand process. So because she shares the process and she lets people in, her doing this cafe is what really closes the loop of like you are really a part of this community. You know those protein bagels that I make at home?
- [47:25]
B
Yeah.
- [47:25]
A
That's her recipe. And the reason why Amazing. And the reason why I love her content is like, she kind of offers something for everyone. She'll give outlandish comments. She'll show what she's wearing.
- [47:36]
B
Unapologetic.
- [47:37]
A
Unapologetic. But then she also gives like high value recipes away. And like, I live for strategic snacking. I love to eat, but I can't eat as much as I would like to eat in order to keep my closet. And because of that, I really aspire to eat more Bethenny Frankel recipes. So I am so fired up for the Supermodel cafe. And I love that it is a site of world building without needing to sell, like, be a part of like a skims brand or a summer Fridays brand.
- [48:11]
B
You should get her on the podcast.
- [48:12]
A
I would love to. If anyone listens to the podcast and is friends with Bethany Frankel, just be like, it would be a one on one interview with Camille.
- [48:20]
B
You guys would connect. I won't be there.
- [48:22]
A
Well, like, I feel like you've said some things about Bethany Frankel.
- [48:25]
B
No, I respect her. She's a G. I love. I think she's a total G. I respect her for kicking butt.
- [48:30]
A
I do too. I just want to take a quick second to ask you guys to leave us a review on Spotify. We've had some people that aren't the largest fans of Philip Lee leave not the nicest reviews. And reviews matter. I would really like our review ranking to be higher because that helps us on AI. So if you love this show and you tune in every week, if you could like just literally take 45 seconds out of your day and leave a review on our Spotify, it would not only mean the world, but it would allow all the hard work that we put into this to go further. So I know that these requests can be annoying, but, like, they really make the difference. So if you could do that, that would be awesome. Awesome. And if you're not hitting subscribe, subscribe to us. This is like, these are the metrics that really matter to creators. And if you tune in every week and you've become a friend of ours, be a real friend and help us with the metrics that matter. Cracker Barrel's CEO exits the brand a year after a logo change that nobody asked for. So we covered this segment when it went live. In case you've forgot or missed it, Cracker Barrel absolutely killed their brand by redoing their logo. And the CEO who was in charge of it, Julie Messino, she steps down with a reported listen to this $4.6 million payout and then gets to have an advisory role on the brand. And my hook to this is that Cracker Barrel changed a logo that nobody asked for. And a year later, the CEO is gone. A logo came back in eight days. And the customer, customer, they never did.
- [50:05]
B
Maybe another controversy you'll take, but you have to own your mistakes. And the Cracker Barrel CEO tried to answer a question or a problem the customer wasn't raising.
- [50:14]
A
Yeah.
- [50:14]
B
So this is what happens. You bring in somebody who's an mba, it makes you look good in terms of the diversity of your leadership, and they make a complete bonehead decision. And, you know, but now you're scared to say that was a bonehead decision. And so, and then they have in their agreement some compensation model. But think of it from the people who are working at Cracker Barrel, who have been there day in, day off, who are, who are building the brand through their interaction with the customer. Like, they're not getting paid. If they screw up, they're getting fired. Right. Like if they screw up a bill or something, they may be getting fired, but this person makes such a boneheaded brand decision to deviate away from what the customer wanted and then gets a multimillion dollar payout.
- [50:51]
A
Well, I mean, despite the fact that executives suck, I think the real lesson from this though is Cracker Barrel, they clearly something was, was not working with the brand. Right. Like, you go through a visual, like, identity shift because there's numbers that. But what they did is exactly what we talk about in my keynote, which is that people come to us with social problems when they're often brand problems. Right. So they're coming with a visual identity issue. And really it's a brand issue. And to your point of you saying, like, the people that work there, they're probably not attracting great talent because the brand doesn't stand for anything. There's nothing clear to the brand. And when you have all these people that are just floating in a void, people don't go back. And that is like the biggest issue is that the logo was so bad you can't remove like they literally removed the man with. They removed the man with the barrel. They like completely whitewashed it. They tried to make it this like inclusive thing, but then they woke wash it like it wasn't good. But that's not really where Cracker Barrel was faltering. In fact, during a time of world building, they should have tripled down, tripled down nostalgia.
- [51:57]
B
Right.
- [51:57]
A
And like when people went to Cracker Barrel, they wanted a Rainforest Cafe like experience with a different brand.
- [52:03]
B
Yeah. They wanted a Taste of what food tasted like with the rocking chairs, with
- [52:08]
A
the, like I remember when I went when I was a kid, the biscuits like when I went when I was a kid, it was such an experience. And when we talked to so many people after them changing the brand, they went back to Cracker Barrel because they wanted that experience of nostalgia. So they should have followed the Chick Fil a playbook and that doubling down on what made the brand unique, different and great and welcoming people back in so that when they came, the experience was so good they wanted them to come back.
- [52:33]
B
But that's where why bean counters who come in from, you know, business schools come in and go, hey look, if we make this more available to the gen pop, you know, we can increase revenue, right? And in the end like they really don't understand how to build a brand.
- [52:47]
A
Well, it's such a great lesson because you also saw that huge headline this week with the Bills, right? So the Bills just do this $20 billion stadium.
- [52:54]
B
Buffalo Bills.
- [52:54]
A
The Buffalo Bills. They have, if you don't know this like they have the base biggest cult like following because. Well, I would like to attribute the Canada doesn't have an NFL team. So you also have a lot of Canadians that travel to Buffalo. And obviously people in Buffalo also love football. I just had to add in the Canadian angle.
- [53:13]
B
It's nothing about Canada.
- [53:14]
A
I think it has a little bit to do with Canada but, but despite that, one of the things that they're the most famous for is tailgating and within this like big new stadium and they try to incorporate the, the tailgating culture by put this like 20 foot long broken ping pong foldable table to talk about how crazy it is that the tailgating culture. And then they've completely limited the tailgating culture.
- [53:38]
B
So the Buffalo Bills are building a new stadium. They have one of the best fan bases in the NFL of humans and a community and a tribe who worship the team, who love the experience and have made it into a culture.
- [53:50]
A
Apparently not because of Canada.
- [53:51]
B
They're building a $2 billion plus new studio stadium. And the way they're giving homage to the, to the culture is to have a giant, you know, six foot table that they jump on up on the wall. So it's like lip service to the culture as and then, then they, then they over regulate the tailgate parties at
- [54:08]
A
the same time, right?
- [54:09]
B
So it's like, okay, look at how we're celebrating it. But now we're going to completely take all of the fun out of it because we're going to regulate the whole thing. And it takes away the authenticity and the creativity that came from the people who were. Were just. I've been to those tailgate parties. It was like going to, you know, as you say, world building like a version of Disney World. Like everybody. Like everybody.
- [54:31]
A
People were like cooking turkeys. They were like, there was. They would sell food. Like there was a whole experience to it.
- [54:37]
B
There's an energy that is created when you. When you kind of democratize the culture to the people, right. But when you try to top down it in a business suit, right, you just ruin the. The vibe. And the Bills are going to ruin the vibe with this new stadium and over regulating the tailgate party. And the lesson learned, I think, to our listeners that I would share is if you have a brand, always focus on your customers, love of the brand, not what some business consultant come in and Sundays.
- [55:03]
A
It's the four pillars to a brand. Let's say it together. Group A good product, a good story, a good experience and consistency. And you can't, like, for the Buffalo Bills and for Crackers Barrel, the story and the experience was such a. A large part of those brands, and you can't remove those and expect the brand to be great. And people are losing it with Buffalo Bills because they're like, as much as we love the team, what they actually loved outside of the team was the community that came with it. Right. The way that it made them feel, the experience. Did I say $20 billion stadium or what I say $2 billion stadium.
- [55:36]
B
I don't know. It's 2 billion.
- [55:37]
A
It seems cheap.
- [55:39]
B
Okay.
- [55:39]
A
Seems cheap.
- [55:40]
B
You think a $26 smoothie is a good deal too? So I don't think you're the arbitrary of affordability.
- [55:46]
A
I definitely wouldn't say it's a good deal, but I would say that it makes. It makes sense. It's girl math. I'm like, you know, oh, there's collagen in there and there's cholesterol and it's. And it's, you know, I can trace where the protein is from the sheep. And, you know, did you see the
- [56:02]
B
video before we go on the. That they did outside of Erewhan? No, in the water.
- [56:07]
A
So it's not in my algorithm.
- [56:08]
B
So they had like this tasting booth out there, and they said. And they. They weren't part of Eran, but they were like, this is Eran's new meteorite water that's kind of taken from the fields or something like that where meteorites were. And, you know, it's $12 a bottle for water and they're tasting like, this is the best water I've ever had. Literally. They went in and took it from the tap of the Erewhon bathroom. But the people sitting outside of Erewhon were drinking it and going, oh my God, this is the best water I've ever tasted.
- [56:32]
A
They for sure hired actors. There's just no chance Erewhon would, would not allow that to happen outside that their stores. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna call that fake. I want to talk about how Cardi B is fronting Old Navy. So Old Navy came out with a campaign this past week that, that had several stars, not one alone. So Old Navy launched its fall 2026 Most Wanted Denim campaign with Cardi B as the lead face. It also included Paloma Ellisr, which. Do you know who that is?
- [56:59]
B
Paloma?
- [57:00]
A
Yeah. No, it is Brooks Nader, who I do know who that is. Haley Bailey, Wisdom K and Queen Blackwell. So I think it's really interesting is that you're seeing these obviously brands that have more money but still interesting signal for your brand to learn from that they're launching more of these like series than individualized celebrities. So the campaign before the summer campaign had Paris Hilton, Kathy Hilton, Sierra and Rob Roush. So it, the whole idea is that Old Navy is now moving into this idea of casting a system, not having a one off star. And I wanted to talk about what brands can learn from this and if this is a smart move.
- [57:38]
B
My issue is like, I don't know how value, how you have brand consistency when you're just rotating so many different people. I don't know what the shared values are. I think it's like just trying to create new shiny objects to keep people engaged. But it's, I don't think that creates brand loyalty. I think it just gets attention.
- [57:54]
A
So you think it's more noise opposed to like it's not a focus strategy.
- [57:57]
B
It gets attention, but I don't know if it converts at the same level.
- [58:00]
A
I think it's intelligent for the brand strategy of Old Navy. And I, I really actually have a, an aside point that I want to share on this week's episode because I've had several conversations with clients at our age agency this past week where they're asking me things based on content we've made without realizing that brand strategy is strategic to the brand at hand. And what that means is when we're talking into a void, we're talking right now to the people listening are everything from huge Fortune 500 companies to small startups. And the idea is that strategy works for the parameters of your brand. That's why we often start with brands with a discovery audit, because we need to know the data points for your brand in order to develop a strategy that makes sense for you and your goals. Old Navy having this rotating cast of care characters, they're really, they're up against Gap, right? They're both kind of mall brands. They're both brands that send these like lower price items. And Gap is doing this insane job of doing these launch collabs what feels like twice a month. And Cardi B comes out and she talks about how Old Navy jeans fit her bbl and like there's no jeans that fit her bbl and she's been buying from Old Navy since she was a kid and that this brand is like a brand for her. Compare that to having brought Brooke Snader, a Sports Illustrated cover model who represents more like a Hailey Bieber esque kind of category than what Cardi B represents. I think it's intelligent for Old Navy having the money and the size because after the Hailey Bieber Gap collab, a lot of people were going to Old Navy, comparing the jeans that sold out for Hailey Bieber to jeans that existed at Old Navy. So I think Old Navy is, is is auditing their share of voice online and seeing these different segments, aren't they
- [59:36]
B
speaking to everybody rather other than speaking to somebody?
- [59:38]
A
What's cool about it is that I didn't see the Old Navy campaign through any of these other names. Mine is Brooks Nader and Haley Bailey, who I follow. Right. So for me, I got to see through Brooks Nader's page, her doing content with Cardi B. And it was interesting. Right. So it's tapping into those audiences within audiences could work.
- [59:56]
B
I don't know. Like, it's Old Navy is a big store that caters to a lot of people.
- [60:00]
A
So I think what we need to take from this is like Gap, when you were able to see that it has like its billion dollars in profit, like a year later. It's just something to watch. Like they've done this now as their second campaign with having their summer campaign with the Hiltons, et cetera. Let's see where this goes for Old Navy because right now I'm not really interested in Old Navy still. So let's see where this goes. If they continue to follow this campaign
- [60:20]
B
because their store isn't experiential either.
- [60:22]
A
Yeah, but I feel the same way about the Gap store. I feel like the Gap store isn't changing. They're doing these great creatives online. I'm talking about Gap. But like I'm not going into the store at the mall. People clearly are because their sales are up.
- [60:33]
B
So you know what they should do? Experiment. They should have like a hologram where you can like dance with somebody in the store and get a video of like Hailey Bieber. You know what I mean? Like there should be something where you go in the store. You can get good content in there.
- [60:46]
A
I feel like Haley Bieber would never dance on a hologram. That would take away her coolness factor. But Cardi B would. And Cardi B would be like tweaking,
- [60:51]
B
you know what I mean? You could do a video like with, with a hologram. Beside, like that would be a cool experience and stuff.
- [60:57]
A
So Skims enters India via Reliance. Couldn't be an episode without a road Skims Summer Fridays, et cetera segment. So I thought this is really interesting. So Skims is entering India, but it's handing the whole market to somebody else to run. The brand that was built on control just gave up control to move super fast. So Skims has been evaluated at $5 billion and there's tons of reports and murmurs that the brand is gearing up to go public. The brand is opening retail flagship stores all over of the world, planning to enter into Hong Kong and Seoul later this year with stores in almost all major Western markets. And what's interesting is this entrance into India. So who do they do it with? So Skims has partnered with Reliance Brands limited which will operate the brand across physical and digital stores within Delhi and Mumbai as our first kind of two planned markets in India. Now RBL already own operates Burberry, Hugo Boss, Tiffany Co, Valentino, etc. In the Indian market. So they're a proven brand to kind of maintain brand value in India. What do you think of this move?
- [62:06]
B
I don't know what's going on in the boardroom or behind it or how it affects the brand. Like, I think your instincts are correct that there are generally things you do prior to an IPO to try and get a higher valuation. And to me it makes sense at a short term perspective to do it. I don't, I don't think it supports Skims necessarily. I don't get that. It's a numbers game to get it. And Kylie's a smart business person.
- [62:28]
A
So I said, oh my God, it's Kim. You're kidding.
- [62:29]
B
Kim. Sorry, Kim. Kim's a smart business person. Sorry. One day we'll meet and I won't forget your name because I'm better with faces than with names.
- [62:37]
A
Oh, my God.
- [62:38]
B
I can't. In the end though, it depends, like, what do you want to do with your brand and your legacy? That's what I would say. And too often I see founders who are amazing get kind of moved down these pathways to do things that sound amazing and they're not always amazing. But I don't have enough intel to make a real call.
- [62:55]
A
The brand has always been loud, right? So the brand has always had this intention of like, be loud, you know, generate a massive valuation and probably go public pretty quickly so that this becomes another milestone in, you know, the lifetime achievement book of Kim Kardashian. And I respect that the strategy has been consistency in its volume. However, I, I, I'm so impressed by what the brand has built and how it's become. This Category K killed out these alternative brands like Spanx in a really short order that I would want the brand to be more thoughtful in its brand consistency and execution. And I think it's complicated that. I don't know. I just, I feel like India is an odd market. Like, my question is like, is, is India going to support the brand or is this just going to become a odd offshoot for the brand in a market that, you get what I'm saying? Like, it just, India to me is an odd market. Tiffany Co. Hugo Boss, Valentine Valentino had existed with strong western demand at a luxury price point that it made sense to offer it to the Indian consumer is skims with how long it's been in market without having those super clear, like established brand codes over 15 years.
- [64:07]
B
If those brands can work, their skims can work there. What the Indian market does is on a deck when you're like pitching things or you're trying to do evaluation.
- [64:15]
A
Such a huge market, it has a
- [64:16]
B
giant upside in terms of potential growth, which can get you a valuation that's better. The Indian market is very, very Western focus when it comes to fashion. Like with new money. Like the, the, the language of India is English. Their official language is, is mostly English. So you know what I mean? Like, it seems like a natural market to go into. I just don't, I just don't know how the brand is going to be handled over there.
- [64:37]
A
I think it's interesting though that you don't hear many brands expanding into India that are kind of in this like mid tier angle. So my question is, is it brilliant and genius that they're the first to do it or is this a Stretch to get deck expansion and verbiage. And the brand is just moving so fast that it's not protecting what made the brand great.
- [64:58]
B
Yeah. To me, it's just what businesses do, you know? From this week, I think we focused a lot on what is authentic versus what is real. And I think there's a movement that we're feeling that go against the grain and lean into being with your family, your people, your notebook and your pen, you know, and say no to AI and the digital world a little bit more.
- [65:22]
A
We had a really cool week this week of, you know, every stop that we made on our trip has been really insightful and thoughtful. We didn't talk about it, but this week we were with the Texas Attorney General's office.
- [65:31]
B
Yeah.
- [65:31]
A
And with a really interesting project of kind of making, you know, make America
- [65:36]
B
healthy again, more bipartisan ingredient, focus, clarity, and foods and all that stuff.
- [65:42]
A
Regardless of if it was from that meeting or a meeting this week, what has been, like, an insightful takeaway that you want to share to the end?
- [65:48]
B
What we had done on the first leg of our tour, you know, when we went to, like, a party with some very successful families, what I took away is how their phones were away. And what I'm seeing is the people who have really made it aren't on their phone anywhere near as much as the people who are trying to make it. And I think that may be because they're able to focus on the important things we've talked about more, not because they don't need the phone. And so that's my takeaway, is I'm putting the phone away. I'm doing more writing, I'm doing more walking, you know, just. And meeting with my people more to. To get that connection back.
- [66:22]
A
I really agree with that. I thought that was a really deep thing that you shared with me right away as you stopped me at the party. And you're like, camille, what do you notice? And, like, obviously, you know, I was just, like, bopping, and he's like, there's nobody on their phones. And when I looked around, he was so correct. And it was actually the first night in this party was, like, over several days. And it was so refreshing to be in rooms where people weren't looking to measure up. Like, the person they were talking to wasn't good enough, or being on their phone was a better use of time than, like, experiencing the real world. And I think that experience in real life is what's going to become this new luxury because we're so focused on optimization and like we were saying, like, watching these short clips, getting these dopamine hits, that just kind of being bored and allowing a conversation to flow is really the real luxury.
- [67:04]
B
You can see it in people, like, when you're in the big cities. Right. They come up to you and they're like, they're talking to you, looking for somewhere to go. And I just think, like, as humans who are building back businesses and connections, like, when we're in front of somebody, be present.
- [67:16]
A
Yep.
- [67:16]
B
You know, be a real human being. And I think that's the best chances of us surviving wherever we're going.
- [67:21]
A
Love it. Well, I hope everyone has a fantastic week. And yeehaw. From Austin, we're off to Las Vegas. Hopefully we get to meet you at the Magic Conference in Las Vegas and otherwise wish us a restful trip home, because these two need to sleep.