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- [00:00]
Steph
It's one of those places that you have to experience in your life. Like, if you're looking for somewhere to book a vacation, I would recommend going to Colombia because it was fantastic. Like, the fashion was unbelievable, the food was delicious, the people so cool, the music, a vibe.
- [00:15]
Philip
I feel like they really have captured or harnessed the power of the female.
- [00:20]
Steph
There is not a single beauty brand doing this in Latin America. So she has the entire market capture of treating these Colombian and Latin American women to be as beautiful as they are. Skims has a vision for becoming an aloe, like a Lululemon, like a Nike like business, because beauty makes you so much money. Like, I think this whole idea that people think that this is, like, classist and tone deaf because the elf goes on strike. I'm like, what other things can they do with elf?
- [00:52]
Philip
They're like Mariah Carey. Sephora ad is politically tone deaf because it says the elf school is on strike. There's not one customer who thought that, but that is the media making a signal, a noise that then other businesses will respond to. And it's actually very dangerous to founders to be responding to noise. The signal is that people want to be entertained by commercials about Christmas.
- [01:14]
Steph
American Eagle taps Martha Stewart for their Christmas campaign. By having another huge blonde, like, white celebrity, it completely brought back all of the headlines of cities.
- [01:24]
Philip
No, they're doubling down. We are not scared to speak to our audience. What direction am I as a creative director gonna give 200 influencers, other than pay them to say, I'm buying my stuff at Best Buy? I'm just. There has to be deeper strategy. I think when you get into it, like, it makes sense what they're doing at some level, but I don't know what the creative is gonna be behind that campaign.
- [01:44]
Steph
What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand say it again now. What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand. Welcome back to another episode of Art of the Brand. We just got back two days ago from Colombia.
- [02:01]
Philip
Yeah, that's the extent of the Spanish you're gonna hear today. I'm a little rusty, but I need to work on that.
- [02:05]
Steph
Honestly, I literally. The poor Colombians, it was literally for most of the trip.
- [02:12]
Philip
Went from four. Four different languages in a month. I think the trying to keep them.
- [02:17]
Steph
Together, literally, was the fact that I had to, like, speak them. I was literally speaking them in French before Spanish because my brain was overloaded with language.
- [02:24]
Philip
And who would have known in Colombia, in the four seasons in Speakeasy Camille Moore is sitting right beside Dua Lipa. Maybe we'll talk about that later.
- [02:32]
Steph
It was pretty crazy because of literally the business of fashion article which you haven't read. Highly recommend. I was a source in that for they. They finally broke down that the Dua Lipa collaboration has, like, similar ingredients. No, no, no. Similar ingredients. Trace ingredients to the Augustinus Bader formulation. So the way they marketed it was that it was like the same TFC8 which makes Augustinus Bader, the famous skin cream. Because this guy who was a doctor with burn victims created this and healed skin. And it's why they can charge $285 a bottle. But the reason why my post did so well was because they can't explain the anchoring. Like, if her price is 40 to 80 dollars and their hero product is 285, why would anyone buy the 285? And in the business fashion article, they basically broke down that it wasn't the same ingredient.
- [03:25]
Philip
So on Monday, you're in a business of fashion article, essentially criticizing Dua Lipa.
- [03:30]
Steph
Pretty much.
- [03:31]
Philip
And then Friday, Well, Thursday, Thursday, we're.
- [03:34]
Steph
In a tiny AS bar in Colombia next to her, and she's playing the next day. It was. It was honestly, though, highly, highly, highly recommend Colombia. Really cool spot. Super cool fashion, food and style. I loved it there.
- [03:50]
Philip
From my perspective. You know, I was first exposed to Colombia when I did my master's in culture because we did some work with consulting work for companies that wanted to go in there. And we had to study the FARC and the whole war. And so I was very familiar with the war, civil war, when I was in the military. And then when I became a lawyer, I did some refugee applications early on in my career, helping wonderful Colombian families come to Canada. It was wonderful to go to Colombia for the first time and see the people and the culture and how beautiful it is.
- [04:17]
Steph
Yeah. And it's so culturally different that Japan, Korea. It's funny to go from a culture that's so focused on, like, bowing and, like, decorum and like traditional cues to kissing festivals. Just even a touching festival. Like, everyone just grabs your arm, they hug you. They're like, it's like, you don't shake.
- [04:34]
Philip
Hands goodbye in Colombia. Like, everybody just kisses on the cheek.
- [04:37]
Steph
You hug you. Like, even the dancing. Like, we went. We're going to talk about that next. Literally the coolest restaurant in the world. And when the music went on, like, you can't sit in your seats. Like, you just. You have to go dance.
- [04:51]
Philip
Like, it was that's going to be a great segment. That's going to be a great segment.
- [04:56]
Steph
What is that song called? So people can search it up on Spotify? We like.
- [04:59]
Philip
We'll put it up.
- [04:59]
Steph
We literally. Or on the dance floor. And I was telling Phil, I'm like, shazam. Shazam. Shazam.
- [05:04]
Philip
Ricky. E apprenditia.
- [05:07]
Steph
Can you spell it for us?
- [05:08]
Philip
R, I, C, A, then Y, and then apredatita. Apre, T, A, D, I, T, A.
- [05:16]
Steph
We'll put it on apres de dita.
- [05:18]
Philip
Yeah. It was amazing.
- [05:19]
Steph
It was literally amazing. We're gonna talk about why we were in Colombia, but let's talk about the bar first, because that was the first spot when we get off the plane where our amazing clients took us to. And it was called Andres Car.
- [05:34]
And it's kind of known as, like, Andres. Do you want to kick it off, like, what the vibe was like? I've got the full story here to do a little case study on it.
- [05:40]
Philip
Like, I've been around the world in bars, in the military, and professionally, and this had one of the coolest vibes of any establishment I've ever been into. And I loved it because it came from an organic place. It wasn't a corporate construction.
- [05:54]
Steph
Yes.
- [05:54]
Philip
And it's organic authenticity you felt the second you were in there. It was a wonderful experience, and you have to go there. If you go to Bogota, if you know anybody in Bogota, I guarantee they're going to bring you there because they're so proud of it.
- [06:06]
Steph
Well, that's actually what it's. It's become. The cultural impact of it is it's become a rite of passage. Like, it's like a place you take visitors when you come to Colombia because they're so proud of it. Like, it's like a cultural icon. It's a symbol of Colombia's playful, theatrical spirit.
- [06:21]
Philip
Yeah. What I loved from the story and when our guests were telling us is it actually started as a roadside restaurant.
- [06:27]
Steph
Yeah.
- [06:28]
Philip
An hour from Bogota. It reminded me of some of the best Texas barbecues that are like, an hour outside of the big towns, and they just become gathering spots for people driving by and then the owner, founder. It has that special secret sauce that they know how to build it into something special, and they kind of channel their customer, and then they channel their own creativity, and they just start building, like, stainless steel sculptures and heart. It was so interesting.
- [06:54]
Steph
You actually nailed the story. So it began in 1982 as a tiny roadside grill in Chia. It was literally a shack on the side of the highway. But the founder, Andreas Jarmillo, he was an artist. And he was also apparently like a crazy man in, like, the best way. Like, just super eccentric, over the top. And he wasn't trying to build a restaurant, but a place to feel alive. Like, he wanted to create an experience.
- [07:18]
Philip
It gives me tingles because when you say that the more business I work with, that's always the secret. It's that founder who's doing something to make something different. So when you say he didn't do it just to build a restaurant, Right. He did it to make people feel alive. That's what you have to tap into.
- [07:35]
Steph
And this is literally an exact parallel to Gentle Monster, because that's exactly what we said when we walked into the spot. So listen to this. He cooked the meat in the back, and his wife ran the front, and locals would pull over for steak and beer. That's it. But what changed was his Andreas brain. And he started treating the restaurant like an art installation, not a dining room. So he started pulling scrap metal sculptures, handwritten signs, angels, devils, lights, mirrors, masks. And every year he added more.
- [08:02]
Philip
Every table had a cool name with.
- [08:03]
Steph
A heart hanging above it and from, like, the Hundred Years of Solitude, like, iconic Spanish names. And it became this surreal world that you could wander through. And it stopped becoming this place to eat and became this cultural phenomenon. So the idea is that Andres Carne D'Reiz evolved into a Colombian fever dream. So you have dancers on the tables, performers weaving through the clouds, crowds, parades. Inside the restaurant, you've got angels giving out blessings. And the idea actually, is that people go for, like, a long period of time, so you don't just go for dinner. Like, you go to, like, experience the space. And we didn't see this, which I'm so pissed about. Every floor is themed, so it's heaven, earth, purgatory and hell is the idea. And it's. So the whole point is that at the bar.
- [08:51]
Philip
No, because it's a very alive.
- [08:52]
Steph
It's one of those places that you have to experience in your life. Like, if you're looking for somewhere to book a vacation, I would recommend going to Colombia because it was fantastic. Like, the fashion was unbelievable, the food was delicious, the people so cool, the music, a vibe. But in this space specifically, like, it's worth going for this place. Like, even the drinks, like, they had this incredible, like, Mandarin cocktail. And it came in this huge glass, and it was like terracotta clay. And the fish food was incredible. And they had a.
- [09:22]
Philip
The performers that came down, like, they were doing Indiana Jones, but it just. The way that the. The way they acted, they were. They were unapologetically themselves.
- [09:32]
Steph
It was just a vibe.
- [09:33]
Philip
Like the. The serving staff, like, it was a. It was a freaking vibe.
- [09:36]
Steph
And they even had this gift shop off to the side. But it wasn't like a gift shop of, like, from China, you know, like, it was like handcrafted, super cool, eclectic, like, weird stuff. Like, it didn't even look like a gift shop. It looked like some woman set up this artistic craft stand at the side of the store.
- [09:56]
Philip
Like what those summer festivals used to sell, you know, like when you go to the store.
- [10:00]
Steph
Yes. The shit you're supposed to find at the craft places that you can't find.
- [10:04]
Philip
Anymore at a festival. But I loved if the owner wants to send me one of those blood red leather aprons for the barbecue. That was one of the cooler aprons, the server side I've ever seen.
- [10:13]
Steph
I just. Honestly, overall, I loved this place. And it's. The reason why I wanted to talk about it is I want today's episode theme to be about world building. And because that was a huge thing of our takeaway from working with Bella Beauty in Colombia. And when you're wanting to build a brand that stands out, you have to understand that you're in the business of world building.
- [10:33]
Philip
What I loved about Colombia, it was cooler than. Than Brazil by far and other places we've been to. No offense to Brazilians out there. I feel like they really have captured or harnessed the power of the female without it being politically correct. You know, it's just that. It's just that when that culture captures the feminine power without trying to make it male.
- [10:56]
Steph
Yeah.
- [10:56]
Philip
Is a vibe. It's not a construction, like a deliberate construction to try to be something. You just get this sense of joy. And I love seeing powerful feminine energy, unapologetic for what they are. They love beauty, but they love to live. They don't take shit from people.
- [11:12]
Steph
They're so powerful, but they just are. Like, it just. It's so. They not. They. They're not trying to be something for a reason other than truly being themselves. And I think even for those who don't know, we. We were in Colombia for this super cool beauty brand called Bella Beauty. B E L A H. And it's owned by this couple, Isabella and Isabella Chams and Ricky Jar. And even their dynamic speaks to kind of this. This idea of Colombia where she's so powerful, she's so independent, she's so focused on beauty and she does her role in her job so well, but they also work so well together in their yin and their yang. She so respects what she does, what she brings to the table. Like, I really. And obviously the pop up was majority women. Like, there was thousands of people that went through every day and they're just so confident. Like, their approach to style is so unique. It's not copy pasted. It just, it's. It really is worth seeing. I really loved it there.
- [12:12]
Philip
And just what our client is doing for Columbia and the beauty industry, I think is going to change the landscape of the beauty world.
- [12:18]
Steph
Well, we recorded a podcast, Isabella and I, which is awesome because she also just sounds just like Sophia Vergara. She's from the same place in Colombia as Shakira and Sofia Vergara. So it's that, like, they're so confident and amazing. And it was her first English podcast. So I don't want to give too much away because I do want you guys to listen to that.
- [12:37]
Philip
But it was spectacular visually because you guys are like sisters from another mother. You know, like, you guys are connected. Same age, same amazing style was an amazing energy. But your discussion on beauty and what a brand is, I think is one of the best episodes I've seen you do.
- [12:52]
Steph
So look out for that. I. We only recorded this on like Thursday, so I'll get it. I'll get a date. But what I do want to touch on quickly is why it's so interesting to listen to that podcast is because Isabella is one of the most famous women in Colombia because she had this role called the Carn Queen. And it's. It's bigger than Miss Universe, but it's not a pageant. So you're.
- [13:16]
Philip
Colombia has the second biggest carnival in the world. Second only to Rio.
- [13:19]
Steph
Yes.
- [13:19]
Philip
And it's a very national point of pride to have a carnival queen who goes out around the world and represents Colombia.
- [13:25]
Steph
Yeah. And she, she basically is like their cultural icon.
- [13:28]
Philip
It's not just for beauty. It's more of a cultural icon of.
- [13:30]
Steph
What represents all of the things. Like, it's the talent, it's how she holds herself. It's all of the things. And that was a huge point of fame for her, but she didn't want to be known for that for the rest of her life. So her and her husband, they worked very hard. They spent a very long time perfecting this beauty brand to launch it in Colombia. And what's so cool about it is it's like a merit, an hourglass, a road or a summer Fridays. Except for there is not a single beauty brand doing this in Latin America. So she has the entire market capture of treating these Colombian and Latin American women to be as beautiful as they are.
- [14:12]
Philip
And this is how I would differentiate it. Because a lot of these celebrity brands that get into beauty, it's like I have celebrity, I'll hire people to make something and we'll make money, exit dump it, you know what I mean? And they just kind of pump and dump and take off. What Ricky and Izza did, which is brilliant. Cause they're really cool humans is they had celebrity, they made a decision, then they spent two years perfecting a product.
- [14:34]
Steph
Yeah.
- [14:35]
Philip
Like they did not rush to a product just to take advantage of it. Because it was close to Carnival.
- [14:39]
Steph
Yeah.
- [14:39]
Philip
They actually went and did the work. And because Ricky is a really well respected chef, he's and business owner in Colombia, he's obsessed with formulation and recipes. And their product is top.
- [14:51]
Steph
It's literally top. You can get it in the US So I'm gonna tell you, I'm wearing it right now on my eyes. If you see the clip and it's like a really pretty sheen. It's her new eyeshadow. But this is like the labs that they're making it in is in Europe. So it's the same quality as, as Mary Unique Road. Yes.
- [15:05]
Philip
Because what some of the other celebrity brands do is they can just go and kind of get an off the shelf white label. Something that's done before. They're doing it from scratch, it's cheap. These guys, this guy pays incredible attention to detail and it's seen in the product.
- [15:18]
Steph
And the reason why I'm foreshadowing this for the episode is take the opportunity to go on their page, like look at how they launch products, look at how they engage with their community and it's in it. What's so fascinating is when you build a world, the people will come. And I talk so much about time, right? Like how important time is for building a brand. What's fascinating is they are doing record breaking numbers. They like, they had an extra PR box that they'd given the influencers and they were going to give it away to their community and they made a contest out of it and they had 600,000 comments to get a single PR box. And that's also because of the, you know, the economic condition of the country that they have. They're launching this as premium luxury in a market where it's not affordable, but it's something that they can achieve to buy because $30 lip liner, although it's very expensive to the average Colombian, is not a Chanel bag. Like, it's something that they can work a year towards to get. So they really prize this product. But the reason why it's just worth analyzing when you listen to the episode is look at the world they've built because of the money they've spent, the obsession they've had on launching, marketing, branding, packaging, formulation. It's a master class in when you do things right, the people will come.
- [16:40]
Philip
You know. You know what movie you're quoting from?
- [16:43]
Steph
Yes. Is it Field of Dreams?
- [16:45]
Philip
Field of Dreams. Nailed it. Kevin Costner.
- [16:47]
Steph
Wow.
- [16:49]
Philip
But it's true. Like, taking the time to build it, and then they had, like, multiple decision points, which I know you talked about on the podcast, where there was criticism and attacks, but they weren't. They weren't scared of doing something that was original, that was aspirational. And everybody was like, oh, if you make something this expensive in Colombia, they'll all hate you. And actually, they loved her. And they save all day for. They save all year for it. Like, they showed courage. They had the. They built the product. They had the courage to price it fairly, and then they built a community, and it's killing it.
- [17:20]
Steph
The only thing that I want to add to what you just said is that they're actually. There's another angle to analyze, though, on top of it, because when they first came to us, they actually wanted us. They wanted me to say that they should change the names of their lip liners, which, if you listen to the episode, you'll hear why it was so controversial. And I told them that's the worst thing that they could do. And what's interesting and when you listen to it and the outcome is that a big reason for their success and how obsessive their community has become is because they're in defense of Isabella. Like, they love her because of the price point. There's haters. There's people who, like. There's just so much attention on this brand, but by her, because she is so loved and so defended, their controversy has actually made their community stronger.
- [18:12]
Philip
Your haters embolden the people who love you.
- [18:15]
Steph
Yes.
- [18:15]
Philip
If you're scared of haters, you're not gonna have fanatical fans. And so I just wanted to talk about it because I wasn't on the podcast. But, you know, obviously, like most makeup brands, they say they're, you know, they're against animal cruelty.
- [18:28]
Steph
Yeah, cruelty for you.
- [18:29]
Philip
But they. They make amazing names, luscious names that really connect with the color of the product. You know, the baklava that you were wearing, people would. Would have shot their family member to get this baklava lips.
- [18:40]
Steph
Literally. That was so true. We, as a quick aside, we. I was doing like interviews in English in the lines.
- [18:46]
Philip
And when I was thousands people asking them if they. They'd. They'd get interviewed on the brand.
- [18:51]
Steph
I called it Bella TV in English. And everyone's like, we don't know. And then I'm like, I've got mini lip glosses. Who wants a mini lip gloss? The whole line could then speak English. Like, I'll interview. I'll answer your question. But the amount of like obsession over lip gloss is just also.
- [19:08]
Philip
What I loved about hilarious is to the person, each young lady and some older ladies, even guys said it made them proud to be Colombian, that her brain made them proud to be Colombian. It made them feel magical.
- [19:21]
Steph
Yep.
- [19:22]
Philip
And that kind of aspirational stuff is what you got to double down into whatever your business is as a car dealership. You know, you're making something. You have to make people feel something as part of it. And the controversy. So they. They thought a great name for the lip gloss was foie gras. Right. Which lip liner. Lip liner. Right. Which is a. The color actually matches. But I don't think they actually. It's odd because Ricky was a chef, but they didn't know that foie gras is actually.
- [19:45]
Steph
No, no, they knew.
- [19:46]
Philip
Done through some animal cruelty to get foie gras.
- [19:49]
Steph
They knew that it was that, but it was. The problem was that they weren't expecting it to be controversial and that the average person in Colombia didn't know. The whole point was that when Colombians started googling foie gras because they like that was their miss Is that they forgot that the average person wouldn't know what these names were.
- [20:06]
Philip
No. Well, they just didn't consider the backlash that they were animal cruelty free. And then they named it foie gras, which involves cruelty to get it. And so there was a big backlash. But in the end, you know, they took. They admitted that it might have been a mistake. I would have just called it foie gras without the cruelty. Like, I would have stayed on it. But they changed it. Admitted a mistake and kept growing. But it was an interesting business learning lesson.
- [20:32]
Steph
But I think that's something that we should talk about quickly because it was. It's difficult for her to discuss that on the episode. So we don't talk about that angle. But I, but. And that's what I said. You shouldn't have changed the name back. Change the name back.
- [20:42]
Philip
You could tell that she was really authentic about potentially making a mistake. You know what I mean? Because she was, she does believe in non cruelty to animals and she thought the name. She's just, she's a good human being.
- [20:54]
Steph
What's interesting in the analyzation of it is that they're trying to make a product luxurious. And because they're making a product luxurious, when she's got mass awareness, it causes controversy in a country that can't afford it because she looks very like well put together and she wears really expensive brands. So they went with ultra luxury names in products. And it's kind of interesting because once you kind of, once you're at a tipping point, people are constantly looking to criticize you. It's what we talked about last week with the Fenty beauty criticism. People are constantly looking to rip you apart. But that controversy is what fuels growth. You have to lean into it.
- [21:28]
Philip
We live in a world that's kind of. It's got two conflicting narratives that one, everything has to be equal. But in beauty especially, people want aspirational things. Like, we were just watching Mad Men this and we saw like in their episode when Marilyn died, how all of the people who worked were devastated. Like they loved, they loved obsessing over something that was aspirational beyond their means. Right.
- [21:51]
Steph
Well, that's why Rhode has done so well. People don't want to talk about it. Like, Rhode has done so well because Hailey Bieber is like the ultimate cool girl. Like, she doesn't seem like super nice and she doesn't seem like she's this aspirational, luxurious, like the ultimate popular girl. And that's why Road does so well, is that when you buy Road, you feel like you're becoming more popular. And it's, it's how humans work. We love status.
- [22:17]
Philip
When you put on makeup, you want to feel like you are that beauty icon that you love. And, and Bella Beauty does it. That product is amazing.
- [22:23]
Steph
But totally. Even when we were interviewing people in the line, like, the answers that we were getting were like empowerment and like, and what it comes down to is again, it's the hero brand. She makes women feel more beautiful. She makes women feel like they should gift themselves. She makes women feel like for $30 for a lip line, you too can be like Isabella Chance. And that's what people want. Like they want to buy into a world, a universe. They called the brand Magic. And I think ultimately It's a masterclass in spend the money. Like, spend it, spend it wisely, spend, spend it large, put the time in. But it comes up. So many people are so obsessed with the conversation of roi. Like, that's what this is. The core lesson from Bella Beauty is spend money and spend money to create a world that people can buy into, because that's the difference.
- [23:14]
Philip
You know, the other thing too that I've seen time and time again over the last couple decades, to be honest, is people cut corners on the expertise that makes the most impact and they actually use the best video. People, you know, like I've just seen so many times in businesses, they want to save money on marketing or they want to save money here. But if you're starting your business and you spend more than your competitors on the right spots with top performers, it will scale you 10x your your competitors, right? But if you try to do everything on the cheap and like, it just, it stops that scaling. They use the best creative people that we've seen.
- [23:47]
Steph
Like, more than that. They've spent the most amount of money on, on the product is perfect, the packaging is perfect, all of those pieces. But that is like baseline. Like, you have to spend to have a good product. If you don't have a good product, the conversation between me and you is over. But the larger thing to take from this is you have to spend on the wow factor, on the experience factor, on the creating the world factor. That's why we just did a whole segment on Andre's dc. Like, when you walked into there, you were completely taken aback. When we talk about Gentle Monster, like, we live in a world where it has to be worthy of someone pulling out their phone and sharing it to the world. Like, you have to surprise and delight them.
- [24:24]
Philip
Like, what I wanted to ask you is. It's hard to reconcile because she has some celebrity, but it's not, they're not spending their money on celebrity, celebrity alone. Like, they're spending it on the experience. You know what I mean? Like, they spent so much money building that pop up, but they didn't spend a hundred grand to have some other influencer validate them or to have somebody come in. Like, you need to spend it on the experience.
- [24:45]
Steph
Totally the only thing to really to learn about Bella Beauty because there's so many factors that business owners can pick apart. They can pick a part that she was famous before. They can pick a part that they had the means to be able to invest in getting the best labs and creating the best product. But the actual takeaway is the amount of people that stood in line that wanted to be a part of the world because of how they made the customer feel like they invested in the customer's experience. If you're looking for rapid growth, you can't cut corners in those areas. Like, you can't be asking, what is the roi? You have to understand that you're in war and like, whoever can spend the most in the smartest way possible wins. And it's not about, like, Bella Beauty does not have more money than Road or Summer Fridays or any of these companies, but they can spend money in the right ways so that they look like they can compete for our listeners.
- [25:35]
Philip
Like, if you want to get into the beauty brand, you can't do that on a shoestring diet. Like, you're just not going to find a formulation that is that much different. So you have to look at your situation in the context of your market. If you want to build in the beauty brand, what Bella Beauty is doing is brilliant. Right? But in your industry, you have to do something that's kind of similar, but within the context of your, like, overspend in some areas over deliver on experience. Like, you have to take this lesson learned and then apply it to your market.
- [26:02]
Steph
Well, I even just got, I ordered some Christmas presents and I got an email from the CEO. It's like an auto email. And it's like, hey, it's Steph, the CEO and founder of Kadence. And she goes on in the email to say like, she created the product herself, like, thank you for purchasing it. You can't get it anywhere else, like by like investing in the company or keeping it moving forward. She goes on to tell me in like a sentence or two, like, what's coming down the pipe to stay excited and connected with the brand. And if we. And then she tells me who is the packaging manager that's going to be packaging my order, that she'll be in touch with the next steps for getting my, my delivery date. And if you have any questions or problems to reach out on Instagram and then they give me a generated code that if I need to like, message them on Instagram related to my order, like, how to do so, like it. What does that cost for a brand to do that? And I ordered a bunch of stuff during Black Friday for Christmas and that was the only email that I got like that from a brand. And how different I feel towards that brand because the cadence isn't cheap for what it is. It's like a super cool. If you haven't Heard about it. It's like magnetic travel accessories. And what's cool about it is it's a unique product that you can't get anywhere else. And what's funny is I even tried to find a cheaper competitor because of the price point. But with that email, I now feel loyal and I want to talk about it.
- [27:22]
Philip
People are looking for personal connections too, so just going that extra mile in some of these areas can make a big difference in customer loyalty.
- [27:29]
Steph
You have to be focused on building a world. Like, that's how to win in the current landscape. It's about world building.
- [27:35]
Philip
So true.
- [27:36]
Steph
So true. So let's move on to AI shopping. So super crazy. So Chat GPT checkout is like the. The next big headline. Glossier and skims are already ahead of this. They're shoppable now through an AI agent. And it's basically ChatGPT has launched an instant checkout. It's a feature that allows users to purchase products directly through the AI agent. So it's powered by the platform stripe and it basically allows people to just view the product in the chat log and then they can purchase it right through ChatGPT. And I think this actually signals a huge change for where shopping is going.
- [28:11]
Philip
So you don't have to go to the website?
- [28:12]
Steph
No.
- [28:13]
Philip
You can't really do that on Google, can you?
- [28:15]
Steph
Well, that's kind of the issue is that the way people are shopping is completely changing. Right. Before, you would do a Google search and you would hope that if it was a direct query versus a keyword, you know, like puffer jacket or jeans versus, you know, ugg boots, you would hope that you'd get matched with the right product. But now the AI agent is going to be selecting based on your parameters, the best options, and you buy right through chat.
- [28:40]
Philip
That actually goes back to one of my old businesses in a way. But I would like to empower the AI agent to negotiate on my behalf with everybody who's selling that product in the world. Right. Like, so if I want to buy that product, I'd like the AI agent to reach out to all of them and says, my client is prepared to buy it. What's the best deal you give with me? And if they had an AI broker on the other side of the seller, you could get real market pricing live because your agent is having all the buyers, all the sellers compete for your money.
- [29:08]
Steph
Yeah, that's super interesting. I mean, you've had that idea way before this announcement came out.
- [29:12]
Philip
AI agents are going to be a much bigger thing in the World of commerce. And so it'll be interesting to study how brands play a role in that as AI agents get more and more complex.
- [29:21]
Steph
Well, what's interesting about it is that the AI agents are going to be synonymous with how we live. Like when I think about the limitations for ChatGPT and how I would like it to be more integrated into my daily life, I'd love to get to the point where the AI agent can scroll revolve for me, you know, because like even the, when you look at a lot of these e commerce based websites, they have AI algorithms that suggest the recommended product based on what you click. But that algorithm still isn't as good as it could be. Right. Like if an AI agent could tap into all of my purchase history and everything that I like to look at and the influencers that I like and what they're linking and like to know it and I even get them like a recommended budget. Like think about how much more powerful shopping can be if it's dialed into the consumer.
- [30:07]
Philip
We would wake up in the morning and your AI agent has suggested to you what the best deals are in the world, the brands that you love.
- [30:13]
Steph
But I don't even think it's about like the deal finding is an interesting aside. Like I have been using ChatGPT during Christmas to find like the best price for an expensive product. But where I think the real power is in these e commerce based businesses is product suggestion. Like think about how many brands that I usually like and would buy from but didn't have the time to see during that three month window that I could have purchased something from them but just because I was busy, I was traveling or I was distracted, I didn't see several of their pieces. Like how interesting could that be if an AI agent could just serve up, you know, a selected pool from the 19 brands I selected of products that I would probably like.
- [30:55]
Philip
Well, that's what I was alluding to. Even if you go on ChatGPT now and it knows you say based on what you know about me from my chat history, suggest five brands that you think I most aligned with. Yeah, AI is going out and going through brands and then feeding it back to you. So then we have to be aware of as we're making a brand that at some point AI is going to be looking at your brand and suggesting it to a human.
- [31:19]
Steph
Yeah, I mean, and I think that's the core question if you listen to this segment is like, where does this go?
- [31:23]
Philip
So that's why you have to talk more about shared Values about experiences, more about your story. Because I can consume information a million times faster than a human. So it's going to be able to get depth in terms of what your brand represents and be able to pair it with humans who share aligned values.
- [31:39]
Steph
Yeah. The downside right now from the ranking for ChatGPT, because we get asked this all the time, is that the ranking is still super tied to pr, so to like reputable sources that are linked to. So that because it's indexing the Internet, so the way that it best ranks and connects with you is based off of other reputable publications. Social media is starting to become indexed, but the problem is that it has to be ranked because it's becoming the arbiter of relevance. That's why it's beating Google. It's like when you go to Google to ask the top 10 best restaurants, your hope as a consumer is that those are reputably the best 10 restaurants. So ChatGPT is becoming that. And that's the downside is if your brand can afford PR native placements, which are paid placements, but they look organic to what Philip is saying. You have to focus on the elements of what ChatGPT would search for. So things like shared values, customer Personas.
- [32:36]
Philip
Even great video testimonials that are deep and real. Like it's going to be very powerful in matching people when you ask it to. So invest in, in your authentic story. If you manufacture a generic vanilla story that looks like everybody else, you're not going to be able to stand out.
- [32:52]
Steph
If you're also going to have a manufactured vanilla story, you're not going to get picked up in press. I think that's another big thing that people miss is that press is supposed to be a news story. Like it has to be interesting to the reader. It goes back to the story brand. These news sources have to be guides.
- [33:08]
Philip
You guys should put in the comments, use your AI of choice and say, based on what you know about me, what's the brand you think that most aligns with me? And I'd be interested in seeing if it's accurate and what it suggests to you.
- [33:18]
Steph
Okay, so what I just asked is based on everything you know about me, what do you think brands best align with me? My personal brand and my taste. So the brands that it gave me were quiet power, luxury brands that signal taste through craft, restraint and timelessness. The Row Le Mer, not the, the skin cream, but L E M A I R E Totem, Jill Sander and Phoebe Filo, the old Celine energy. And then Modern luxury lifestyle and hospitality. Amman, Six Senses, Four Seasons, Hope Del and then the Rosewood Hotels and then high end beauty and wellness innovators atomy, Augustinus pater, Dr. Barbara Sturm, SkinCeuticals and then the Wildflower cases and then cultural thought leader brands Apple, Aesop, Monocle, Glossier, Glossier Early Era and Maison Margiela Quiet Quiet tailoring line and then Digital Age Luxury Road Skims, Gani, Kait, Alara and Flamingo Estate. Those are the brands it gave me.
- [34:14]
Philip
Interesting.
- [34:15]
Steph
I think to wrap up the segment it's easy to see that Skims is and Skims and Target and Glossier. They're powered into the AI engine of like you can now buy through ChatGPT. I would be less impressed by them being dialed in for people to purchase through the chat and it being more focused on the discoverability. I think the real power and where this is going is the discoverability because it's, it's not that much easier to go on ChatGPT and ask for it to like. You have to give it the specific silhouette and style and then you're checking out. It's more of a novelty to do it through chargeboot than to just go to the skim site, find the shirt. Because like Skims has like the one step checkout. You could do the shop My like the shop my and you can click it and you can do like the Apple Pay and it like goes directly to your home. Like most of these e commerce brands are optimized to be one to three steps for checkout. So that's kind of a novelty play. It's more focusing like get ahead of how you can improve your discoverability. Because I was just shopping on Balsam Hill, a Christmas company site and in one of the products that I purchased it had decorations on the tree and I wanted the decorations that were placed in the image. And when I scrolled down past of all like the shopping info it had the like your recommended purchases and it was, it wasn't the things that were listed in the photo. And I'm like what a miss. You know to oversee the pairing of what a customer.
- [35:41]
Philip
It's kind of like what's the model wearing? Yeah, it should be like what is on the tree?
- [35:45]
Steph
And I hate when they don't do that. Like why is it same thing. I did that on Essence which went bankrupt. They in probably because their site could be better. And when I went on their, their website I scrolled down, I wanted to get the jeans and it was so hard to find the jeans And I'm like, that's such a mess.
- [35:59]
Philip
Because like, no, that's why the agent is. Is it? It makes the shopping experience better because you can have the AI agent know your address, hopefully protect your credit card details and then it can go through the work on the site to buy it rather than you having to do it.
- [36:13]
Steph
Yeah, right.
- [36:14]
Philip
Because I hate kind of connecting, you know what I mean? Like doing all that nonsense.
- [36:17]
Steph
Yeah, no, I totally agree with that. And actually while we're on the topic of skims, I want to move over to a skims headline. So this isn't brand spanking news is probably about now two or three weeks ago, but Skims taps the founder of Amy Cole, Diara Nadaya, as the lead of its, of its beauty expansion, which is really interesting. So she's now the executive VP of Beauty and Fragrance, which shows that clearly they're going to be rolling out something big. But what's really interesting about this headline is that Daria Nade was the founder of Amy Coley, which was a black owned beauty brand. A beauty brand that was highly celebrated. So well done, perfectly executed. That was in Sephora and that failed. And it kind of became this headline of is Sephora all that it kind of cracks up to be? And how the business of Sephora has changed and it's not as in favor of the beauty founder or the beauty owner.
- [37:09]
Philip
Well, it wants control.
- [37:10]
Steph
Yes.
- [37:11]
Philip
Like in the end, when you look at Sephora, if you get past all of the hype and the stripes and you look at what organizations are, when you become that big, you become a soulless corporation that wants absolute control.
- [37:20]
Steph
Yeah.
- [37:21]
Philip
And so it'll buy people, it'll bring them in, but only to convert them to their own model like it becomes. So they don't want strong founders who are demanding their own space, their own voice, they want compliance.
- [37:31]
Steph
Well, that actually isn't quite the issue, which I don't disagree with what you're saying. The problem with her before brand is that Sephora actively sought out black owned beauty brands after or during the Black Lives Matter movement because they wanted to, they wanted to reflect back that they were celebrating black owned businesses. And it was a huge push that Sephora did. And Amy Cole was one of those brands. But then when the brand saw success, Sephora wanted to make it more successful. So they started pushing on this black owned beauty brand that was servicing black women to have like a 47 shade foundation line. I'm making up the how many foundations. But they wanted her to move into having like lighter Shades of foundation, which is the dumbest move because they have 65 other brands that are servicing the entire foundation range. Like, why does a brand that has like a niche expertise that's killing it have to service a much larger market base when it doesn't have that demand?
- [38:25]
Philip
Some people listen to the podcast, you know, the more they understand where I'm coming from, there'll be less hatred towards me. Criticizing political correctness. Because when a giant corporation comes to you because of Black Lives Matter, they don't actually care about Black Lives Matter. They're looking at a way to use you for their own ESG rating and for their own market share. And then they end up corrupting the founder as opposed to. It makes brilliant market sense to find a black founder who understands beauty. It's like Bella Beauty in Columbia. Like, let's find people who make their audiences feel beautiful and that build great tribes, bring them in and celebrate them. But they kind of brought her in and then tried to whitewash her brand. Yeah, right. But they brought her in for Black Lives Matter. But then whitewash, which means don't believe corporate hype. All the political correctness you see from corporations is just designed for make money. They don't care.
- [39:15]
Steph
Well, what's interesting, everything you're saying I also agree with. But what's interesting about it is that the angle that I and what I felt in reading was less about like whitewashing it and more that.
- [39:26]
This is what the zeitgeist wants. The Zeitgeist wants to support black owned beauty brands. So in theory, there's enough people in all of the different racial groups that would rather buy from a black owned beauty brand than from, you know, the countless other brands. The problem is the economics. Because like when you're doing $8 million in Sephora in wholesale, you're losing money, so it becomes difficult to get access. Like a lot of these brands, like, you guys don't see this, but like Summer Friday is insanely VC back. Like these have become like they're backed by banks because they need so much money for inventory, for samples, for these activations, for being in all of these stores all over the world. Sephora doesn't become the lender you have to get lending for these purchase orders. And the request that Sephora was giving this brand didn't make fiscal sense for what she was going to be able to expand into based on why she came in.
- [40:21]
Philip
Which is why I think we tell some founders, like, Sephora isn't the Mecca of the beauty world. It's having Control over your own brand. Yeah, it really is staying true to your community and the universe you built. Like, that's what makes life amazing.
- [40:32]
Steph
But the interesting angle of why I thought this was a fascinating headline is I've been studying Skims a lot and what I'm noticing is they've realized that being in loungewear alone, they can't become a megalith brand. Like, there's just a market cap for being in loungewear and sleepwear and shapewear. That's why they got into activewear. The miss was that they partnered with Nike, opposed to developing it themselves. Because Nike is past its tipping point. Like, people don't think Nike is cool and anymore.
- [41:03]
Philip
Like, it's also just past the tipping point. It's past its. Its climax. Like, it's on the way down major.
- [41:08]
Steph
And the numbers support it. Like, Nike isn't a cool brand anymore. The thing that's complicated is that there's elements of Nike that are like, especially in streetwear in Asia. Like, they do have an element of the brand that's cool. But these huge box Nike stores is just. It's the masses. Like, it's.
- [41:22]
Philip
And the sneaker market is tanking right now.
- [41:24]
Steph
Is.
- [41:25]
Philip
It's about 40% down. The sneaker market, which is. Which is a big. Will have a big impact on Nike.
- [41:30]
Steph
And Adidas, I believe it because they're the ones really driving that, like, aftermarket sneakerhead brand. Like, it's interesting. But the point that I thought of them tapping Amy Cole to develop this line is actually a really good move and super intelligent because they come in seeming like a saving grace. They're bringing someone that the community wants to see succeed. Like, people want to support Dyrea Nade. Like, she's done what she did was a fantastic job and we didn't want to see her company even fail. So. But it also shows you that skims has a vision for becoming an aloe, like a Lululemon, like a Nike like business. Because they're now also getting into beauty, into skincare, which. Think about Victoria's Secret at the checkout. I. Even when I was in Zara in Colombia, like, how big their fragrance at the checkout is. Like, this is how they get insane multiples when you get into the beauty vertical. Because beauty makes you. You so much money.
- [42:26]
Philip
Yeah. I think we talk about skims a lot, but there's a lot of interesting elements in there. Like, if the collab works, it'll be interesting to see how the egos work in that collaboration.
- [42:35]
Steph
No, it's Not a collab. She's been appointed as an employee. She's. She's in like, she is the executive VP of beauty and fragrance.
- [42:41]
Philip
At Skims, it is interesting because you're a founder who did it. Like, when you're a founder, you have control over your brand. It's interesting becoming employee in a giant corporation. It'll be interesting to see how that works out. I don't think skims is a good investment right now, no matter how they reach the.
- [42:55]
Steph
Tell me why. Why do you think so?
- [42:56]
Philip
I just think they're overleveraging themselves for sales. They're losing their brand core and what they stand for. And so it's, it's part of the cycle of go public, raise money, make as much as you can, and then the founders exit or the investors exit, and then the brand slowly dies.
- [43:13]
Steph
They're definitely trying to get their brand to critical mass as fast as possible. And I don't expect disagree with you that it's going to have, it's going to have a petering out. Like she's going to exit out of the company and it's going to have less of that coolness factor as soon as kind of Kim has left the building. And I think Emma Green is going to leave the building too. The thing that's interesting, though, about it is that, you know, we were having a conversation about this with our dear friend Hannah yesterday. And what's fascinating, though, is skims to me, of all of the mass markets, gets the consumer the best. And I think that that is worth celebrating. When I think about, like, Lululemon, when I think about even aloe, when I see their clothing and their styles, it's not like, universally like, aesthetic. Like, that's what makes skims great, is it's nudes and neutrals. Like, it's nudes and neutrals. It's basic wears, it's comfortable, it's good fabrics. Like, that's what people want. Like, when I go into Lululemon, I hate that they're doing, like, Christmas jewel tones. Like, I don't. Like, I, I can't. Whenever you go into lemon, I can't get, like a nude tank top. Like, that's all I want to wear. That's why the black leggings are number one product.
- [44:13]
Philip
I don't want bright colors.
- [44:14]
Steph
No. I don't want these, like random neons or these.
- [44:17]
Philip
Like, actually, when we walked by a Lululemon recently, I didn't even know we're talking about. I looked in, I go, does that look like a Lululemon store. Like I just, I just head glanced in and my first reaction, it didn't feel like a Lululemon store.
- [44:27]
Steph
It felt like, oh, we were here and we were here in Canada.
- [44:30]
Philip
We went.
- [44:30]
Steph
Yeah, no, I agree. No, but that's what I mean about like I, I think skims for us, between us was cooler when it started because it had this like, wow, this is new, this is exclusive, this is premium. They're obviously now like, they're opening up mall stores and like random places all over the US and all over the world. But when I still look at their products, it's still staples, which I. There is a space for that with the mass market. Like when I go to the mall, I hate that. Like I can't go and get like a nude workout set. Like that's never going to go to style for me. Like in six years I'm never going to not want to Nudes, grays, navies or blacks. Like, I don't want these like burgundies or like the color of the moment is periwinkle, you know, Like, I don't think that that's the thing. I think that works both skims.
- [45:13]
Philip
Cool. I wanted to move on because I like this topic you brought up. Sephora's Mariah Carey Christmas ad gets tone deaf. Verdict. I got some thoughts on that. I want to hear your thing.
- [45:21]
Steph
I think that this is like a fake campaign that people like, they paid people to like act like it was controversial in order to break through. Because I found the ad extremely boring and completely non offensive. Like I think this whole idea that people think that this is like classist and tone deaf because the elf goes on strike. I'm like, what other things can they do with elves? Like they get sick. The only thing is they go on strike because all that. The only thing that we know about elves is that they like have to work for Santa. So they're sensing slaves, kind of, they're sensitive slaves. They're the elves.
- [45:53]
Philip
I don't know if they get paid.
- [45:54]
Steph
Well, we don't really think about it because it's a Christmas story. But like the idea of like the elf going on strike, like that's even kind of a part of the Christmas movies. Like what Christmas isn't that with one of Tim Allen where like the elves go on strike and they have to like make it in time for Christmas and they have to bring them together. Like it's the only logical piece that makes sense in the story arc of Christmas that we all understand.
- [46:18]
This.
- [46:18]
Philip
This kind of issue is important to me because it's, it speaks directly to the signal and the noise in the world. We should all know the book. But what we're seeing more and more in today's media landscape are manufactured stories by people in the media who want to create the story, who aren't reporting on the story because it aligns with their political views. We see it in relation to politics. We're seeing it in the media. So they're like Mariah Carey. Sephora ad is politically tone deaf because it says the elf school is on strike. There's not one customer who thought that, but that is the media making a signal, a noise that then other businesses will respond to. And it's actually very dangerous to founders to be responding to noise. The signal is that people want to be entertained by commercials about Christmas, right? And if you entertain them and capture their attention, they'll buy. That's what you need to be thinking about in the advertising world, in the marketing world. Not about the noise generated by media. People who want to advance and interests by creating a story.
- [47:16]
Steph
You're. You're dead. Like, literally. Mic drop. Little, little golf clap over here on the right. No, you're so right. Because like when I like, what are the options for coming up with a creative story in the market for Christmas? Like, you're limited. Like, we can't talk about the elves benefit package. We can't talk about the elves, you know, getting Covid and being out for two weeks. Like, there's limited.
- [47:37]
Philip
Why can you call them elves but you can't call them dwarves?
- [47:39]
Steph
Because I think dwarfs is. It's a. They're dwarfed people. Whereas, like, elves is like, it's a part of the, It's a part of their character. Okay, well, I feel like I answered that question properly. But you know what the other one I want to talk about? The other holiday campaign was the Martha Stewart campaign. So American Eagle tapped Martha Stewart.
- [47:55]
Philip
Excuse me, can I have a moment? Those are not my notes.
- [47:58]
Steph
I got it pulled up here.
- [47:59]
Philip
No, I'm good.
- [47:59]
Steph
Let's go to Martha from Martha. So American Eagle taps Martha Stewart for their Christmas campaign. What I actually think is intelligent about this is not only is it like completely non offensive and visually beautiful, but like from a writing perspective, not particularly captivating. What was intelligent about it is by having another huge blonde, like white celebrity, it completely brought back all of the headlines of City.
- [48:27]
Philip
No, they're doubling down. We are not scared to speak to our audience. We are not scared of you. Fake media. Who wants to make stories. And as soon as you take it on, whether you agree with Trump or not, the same thing, you defeat them. But if you are a slave to the media coverage, if you're a slave to the trolls, it will stop your growth. This move to Martha is beautiful. After Sydney Sweeney, it's a giant F you.
- [48:48]
Steph
To the critic, it's an F you. But it's also though, a bit of an appeasement. Right. Because it allows them to say, oh look, you know, they're correcting themselves. They're not doing another super controversial campaign. But in doing that, everything is still about Sydney speed.
- [49:04]
Philip
Like it's, it's controversial.
- [49:05]
Steph
I feel like people forgot though. Like, I don't. I think with Martha Stewart, what she did so well with her PR is that she kind of, she has this whole thing with Snoop Dogg and then she's like, she's. I feel like she's just constantly in the news, in the media and because her PR is so good, which actually shows you that all PR is good pr. Like people aren't constantly talking about her being a convicted felon.
- [49:24]
Philip
No, but she's unapologetic. She was, she was a beast. She was tough to work with. She made an empire, she slept with whoever she wanted. Like she did her own thing. Like I like that they are not apologizing for putting powerful women in there that aren't what everybody else wants.
- [49:39]
Steph
No. And I mean, I completely agree with you. The other thing that's really fascinating though is I was reading an article on business of fashion and they talked about like they had this chart from one of their pieces they sell. And the chart is like American Eagle's virality came at a concept cost. And they talk about like the brand business of fashion. They talk about the insides brands pulse on connection and like the overall sentiment at the, on the Internet. And they basically are saying it like when it was at its height, people were like talking a lot about it. But then after that it's like completely dropped off. And they're basically using this as a way of saying of like the, the, the message in the media online is, is super negative. And because they can only measure the negative media, therefore the brand took a hit.
- [50:22]
Philip
But that's a manufactured story to, to meet a political aim that's not designed to inform the consumer. So shame on the business of fashion for that. Because what you can do is selectively pick some indicators and write a story. Right. But you got a giant bump in attention. Your sales went through the roof. Notice they're not putting sales There. Yeah, right. They're not putting sales there because they're trying to make a point that they were wrong to put Sydney Sweeney there. And so they're selecting data that's supports it. That's not good journalism.
- [50:49]
Steph
The other angle though, to this too is people who are in celebration of you often during controversial moments don't feel the need to create content. And that's like a massive aspect that isn't, that isn't measured. Because online it allowed people to virtue signal to create content and shaming and having all of these like air quote marketing experts talk about how wrong it is to like have a voice and have an opinion. But that's an echo chamber of one side of the conversation where the consumer, the person who actually like just honestly like the consumer you have to talk to at like a grade three or grade five level. Like, you just need to have these flash moments that allow people to feel aligned and come back in and show support with their wallets. Which is to your point, why they should have looked at sales over inside data.
- [51:37]
Philip
It's actually disingenuous. They're not looking at sales, but they're trying to show people that they were wrong for doing it. And your analysis right there is 10 times more informative than what that article provided.
- [51:48]
Steph
100%. And the last thing I want to touch on on this week's episode is so the Best Buy doubles down on having 200 plus creators and influencers in a holiday push. So Best Buy is partners partnering with more than 200 influencers and YouTube clips creators for its 2025 holiday campaign into including integrations into connected TV ads alongside its influencer ecosystem. And basically the reason why this matters is I think that this is the way to approach campaigns in the current landscape. Because I hear often my board meetings with brand owners, they want a big name, but they also want to measure roi. And the big names can charge or are charging like six figures for an in feed post, like multiple six figures for an in feed post. And when you think about it, like think about the randomness of you being focused, of you seeing it, of you being in the right mindset to buy versus seeing 200 creators and the likely of like 10 hitting your feed or 5 hitting your feed. Getting to that marketing rule of 7.
- [52:53]
Philip
Yeah, like it becomes a very math game unfortunately. You know, like the rule of seven is like you need to see an advertisement on a billboard or a newspaper or a TV seven times before it sticks on social media. I don't think you need the rule of seven. If you have a crazy engaging piece of content because a billboard or an old newspaper ad was two dimensional, it was flat, you read it, you switch by it. But if you engage with like what I was telling you about that new Chevrolet Christmas commercial that lasts two and a half minutes, it's a mini movie, you get chills at the end, right? I don't need seven times like that just affected me because it told me a story. And that's what people are dealing with, with the influencers. See, with Best Buy, what I'm concerned about is I don't know what their brand is other than they have sales, right? Like when I look at Best Buy, I look at them to go in and get a lot electronics that I think are at a good price. So I don't know what influencers are going to do that's that engaging. Because the store is very cluttered sometimes it's overwhelming. I don't know what type of content they're going to make that's going to make it memorable to me. Like their sales make Best Buy memorable to me. So I don't know how they're going to use 200 influencers to create content that's engaging across a wide spectrum of audiences.
- [54:03]
Steph
Because it's purely based on awareness, right? Like a lot of people for Christmas get Apple watches, AirPods, iPhones. Like a lot of people get Xboxes, PS5s. A lot of people get technology for Christmas. So it's not about like Best Buy doesn't sell an isolated product. They're competing between Walmart and Target and all the other different London drugs.
- [54:22]
Philip
So what's the Best Buy story?
- [54:23]
Steph
But it's not about the Best Buy story. Best Buy is a mass generic retailer. What it comes down to is they want to make sure it's price shopping. Yeah, it's price shopping, but it's also making sure that Apple is standardized price across all the different options. They want you to consider going to Best Buy to buy the product at the same price. At the same price.
- [54:42]
Philip
Why would I do that?
- [54:43]
Steph
What do you mean why would you do that?
- [54:44]
Philip
Why would I go to Best Buy instead of Apple other than there's not an Apple close to me? Because the Apple Store is a better experience. So why would I go to a Best Buy to buy Apple?
- [54:52]
Steph
Well, one, maybe it's sold out. Two, it's also on the accessory front, right? Like you can get accessories that are on sale, you can explore and purchase from more products. But I think that the core aspect from this is when I analyze the campaigns that are, that are doing the best it is in volume. Like whether it's structured for you having like a few big people and a lot of medium or a lot of small tier people. Like, you need to diversify your message in my opinion, like that's the core thing that I think you need to do when you're in, when you're trying to.
- [55:20]
Philip
What do you mean by diversify your message? Like, this is Best Buy to me. When Best Buy opened up years ago, it was a place I went to learn about technology. The people there helped me understand the technology so I could make the best information decision. Now when I go into Best Buy, half the people don't speak English. They don't know where anything is. I'm not really learning from them. I can learn much quicker on YouTube. So the question now is, for me, if I'm advising Best Buy, what about you is different? You have more products now. They have baking ware and spinners and microwaves. Right. Like, so all it is is like a mass market retailer of things. So what are you going to, what direction am I as a creative director going to give 200 influencers, other than pay them to say I'm buying my stuff at Best Buy? I'm just. There has to be deeper strategy. I think when you get into it, like it makes sense what they're doing at some level, but I don't know what the creative is going to be behind that campaign.
- [56:12]
Steph
I think you're over complicating it when you look at a mass retailer like Best Buy that generates hundreds of millions of dollars. Christmas and Black Friday are huge events for them for where they generate substantial portion of their revenue.
- [56:27]
Philip
But what are.
- [56:27]
Steph
With that being said, they often diversified it into TV commercials, which no longer is the best place for them to spend. So when people are buying product from Best Buy, like they have a massive footprint, a global footprint. And not for nothing, one of your Christmas gifts I got at Best Buy and the reason why I got it at Best Buy is because when I was comparing all of the different options of where I could buy it, I actually trusted Best Buy the most because they have the best return policy.
- [56:56]
Philip
Okay, but what does that have to do with an influencer then? You already trusted them, right? So why did you trust them? That's what I would be doubling down on in their story and their brand. If I just spend $200 million or $20 million on 200 influencers, but I don't have good creative behind it, I'm following a trend like that's What I'm trying to. I like Best Buy. I want it to do better. I love their story about the button. But I don't know what brings me into Best Buy anymore when I can buy the same product online, probably cheaper, or from Best Buy online. Like, what would you say to Best Buy with these content creators? What type of content would you suggest they make to help the holiday season?
- [57:31]
Steph
What they're buying this year for Christmas, like their gift guys. So this is what I'm buying for Christmas. This is where I'm getting it. I'm getting it at Best Buy like it's it. But that's.
- [57:40]
Philip
Why am I going to Best Buy? Like, you know, that's all that I'm saying is Best Buy. It's become so crowded. It's hard to have an experience. But I agree with you. If they have products that they want to push and they've got a good margin on them, having the influencers say that they're buying them there and why.
- [57:54]
Steph
But I don't get what your point is. Like, how are you criticizing them when you don't know the creative for the approach that they took.
- [58:00]
Philip
Well, I don't know. That's all you said, is that they just hired 200 people and then we're going to make an opinion of it. But I can't have an informed opinion unless I know what the creative angle is other than we're just talking about that they hired 200 influencers. Well, the creative strategy matters more than just following the trend of one influencer versus 200. Like to me, creative matters. That's why I can't replace creative. You need top creative people to get ways to engage with people in a way. Rather than spend on 200 creators, I'd make 10 mini movies about Best Buy that are compelling and really engaging, that are memorable. Perhaps, I don't know, there's different story.
- [58:34]
Steph
But I think. But I also. This is where I disagree with you is like when you try to overcome stick handle the creators. Like the reason why you're selecting these creators is because they've built their own platform. Like they understand their community, they understand their message and they know how to create content that performs. It's not in their interest. When you do a creative campaign with a brand, you have to send in the insights.
- [58:54]
Philip
No, no, I got that.
- [58:55]
Steph
So when if you want to like hand the same script 200 people, that's also probably not going to work.
- [59:01]
Philip
I'm not saying. I'm saying they should go into what Chevron in terms of making Powerful content. Like, yeah, you can go to 200 creators and say, be creative about showing Best Buy. To me, the audience. I know that they're just actors, right, that are just getting paid for product placement.
- [59:15]
Steph
But you're not their audience.
- [59:16]
Philip
Are you? Sure I am. I buy a lot of stuff from Best Buy. What do you mean I'm not their audience?
- [59:19]
Steph
The people that they're tapping into, they're tapping into people that are asking for gifts from their parents. They're act like they're tapping into a different audience.
- [59:25]
Philip
Well, if that's what you know that they're focusing on, then that's interesting.
- [59:29]
Steph
They're tapping into 200 creators. Like the angle is going to be them focusing on who's gonna be buying. Like asking for Christmas presents. Like it. That's the angle.
- [59:38]
Philip
Are you guessing or do you know that?
- [59:39]
Steph
Who else could they be tapping into? I don't know, like dads at barbecue. Like that doesn't make sense.
- [59:43]
Philip
Well, no, dads buy Christmas presents so they can be picked up.
- [59:48]
Steph
Influencers and creators. What is your deductive reasoning? It's not plus 50.
- [59:52]
Philip
Well, it actually is if you have good creative mind. Because there are creators and influencers who speak to those audiences that have the highest discretionary income and spend the most part money per person in the Christmas season. So I would go after 100 influencers who speak to dads who are looking to buy great gifts. So it's not so obvious as for you to scoff at it, to think that it wouldn't be directed at dads who spend the most at Christmas.
- [60:16]
Steph
I just feel like you're all over the place. I don't understand. You're saying that they should just do a two minute commercial?
- [60:21]
Philip
No, I'm saying unless I understand the creative strategic angle behind the 200, it's hard to have an interesting analysis of this point on the podcast. Right. As opposed to going from 1 to 200. Because they could blow all that money just as easily if they put it all on one influencer.
- [60:37]
Steph
Well, of course. But like, there's two pieces to this. There's the strategy and there's creative. The strategy.
- [60:42]
Philip
And creative is part of the strategy.
- [60:44]
Steph
Of course the creative is part of the strategy. But there's also the strategy and how you're going to approach what to do and then what is the creative that's going to lay on top of it. And in the current landscape, it's interesting that a brand is diversifying through having 200 creators speak during a short time frame to expand the message like there's, it's an interesting strategy that I'm seeing actually direct to consumer brands. Like the ones that are, that are doing crazy numbers have these armies of people that are talking because there's an element of like gambling of within. If you do 104 are going to go viral. Right. And like 25 are not going to perform. And then like, there's just, there's variables to within. That's why you get into these bigger numbers because you're just dealing with so much randomness that you can't quantify.
- [61:30]
Philip
That's why it makes sense to have bigger numbers of influencers because you're dealing with so much randomness.
- [61:34]
Steph
That's. Yeah. When I talked with TikTok, in analyzing how to like launch products on TikTok, they said that the magic number is you want to do about 90 affiliate gifts, you want about 90 creators. Because when you have that 90 within that number, a small percentage are going to go viral. So you have to basically justify giving away 90 products to 90 different people with them having their own creative approach with the platform and then seeing which ones the algorithm picks up to go viral.
- [62:06]
Philip
That influencer market is getting as crowded as the old Yellow Pages used to be now with people pushing stuff. So I'm buying a lot of gifts on Instagram Direct, but they're not really from influencers or from well designed creatives that show why the product is amazing. Yeah, Like, I'm not buying it because I see Jake Paul saying he uses this super pen or something. Right. Like I'm buying it because the actual creative behind the Instagram ad speaks to me and it's feeding me stuff that works. So I'm not sure that's the best use of money. I know it's a trend, but every business should have its own specific strategy.
- [62:39]
Steph
Well, that's actually interesting because one of the headlines this week was that like the creator economy is booming and fashion brands are feeling the heat because it's just becoming so competitive. Like the industry data is showing that despite more content creators, like certain sectors like fashion and beauty are seeing a decline in engagement just because it's like so overdone, it's so crowded.
- [62:58]
Philip
It's like the theory when you're investing in real estate, once you see six cranes in a downtown core, it's time to start selling. Yeah, it's become too frothy and then move out. And I feel like we might be going down that direction. And that's why creative is more important than ever.
- [63:12]
Steph
But that's also why? It depends on the strategy for where your business is. Right. Like a lot of small, medium sized brands are killing it through Instagram ads. Cause I agree with you, like, I trust that more especially when the creative is not Jake Paul. Like Jake Paul talked about a face cream. He's also not my creator. Profile that I would follow tastes like.
- [63:28]
Philip
A chewed up camera.
- [63:29]
Steph
But I don't buy products from those kinds of people. Right. Like, but also when you're Best Buy and you have like you're a huge company, you're publicly traded, you have your own restrictions, diversifying into having a few hundred creators at least allows you, you to maintain awareness. It's probably a Coca Cola strategy.
- [63:48]
Philip
But next week we should talk about the, the kind of corruption behind the influencer market of some of the big names that are pushing products that they say they use that aren't really there. Like there's a whole, I think a coming scandal in that area.
- [64:01]
Steph
Major. There's a huge lawsuit already on it against Aloha. We talked about this. But yeah, let's talk about that next week. Let's talk about our favorite Christmas commercials. If you guys want to send in your famous Christmas, your favorite Christmas ads.
- [64:12]
Philip
We'Re going to drop our favorite Christmas.
- [64:14]
Steph
Movie and our favorite Christmas songs. Yes, we'll do that next week on next week's episode. Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving. For those who celebrate and for those who we met in Colombia, Japan and Korea, it is so awesome to connect with people who are fans of the show. So thank you for reaching out and saying hi.
- [64:30]
Philip
Till next time.
- [64:31]
Steph
Till next time, guys.