← The Art of the Brand
The Art of the Brand
Brand Boss Unfiltered: Why Most Marketing Fails & What Actually Builds a Brand
01:03:16
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- [00:00]
Bill Harper
I am very much against the idea that marketing sells stuff to people that they don't need. I don't believe that for a minute. Look at Liquid Death. They just became $1 billion valuated company for putting water in a can. Find me the innovation in that. You can't. It's all a brand story. Yeah. My belief is that if you're not visible, you can't be profitable the way you need to be. If I got on to prove to somebody that TikTok wouldn't work for me, like, so I got on and I did a video. And the first video got like 300 things, and boy, did he know me. I was like, well, I can do better than that. So I went back on and I did another one and that one got like 1500 views. And the next thing you know, it was 3000 and then it was 10,000. And I filled three months of my calendar in two weeks.
- [00:46]
Camille
What a brand, what a brand, what a brand what a mighty good brand what a brand, what a brand what a mighty good. All right, so we're in North Carolina, Toronto. We're getting together on Brand. The two of my favorite videos of yours I wanted you to unpack further. That's why I had my little show notes. But I also wanted to talk about China because I thought you had one of the best perspectives on that. And it's really unveiled itself to. For you to have really broke the news on the video scripts almost being exactly the same from the factories.
- [01:25]
Bill Harper
It was kind of an interesting time, but it was what made sense. The question now is like, I'm waiting for a china direct.com to come out. Like, that would be the logical next step. Right?
- [01:38]
Camille
Isn't that what AliExpress is?
- [01:41]
Bill Harper
Yeah, but I mean, I think this would be an opportunity for them to use language that was even more specific about it that was like, hey, go around. But I find it really interesting that the focus was on the transparency, not the fact that when China did that, they basically broke every rule, which is why everybody's so frustrated with China in the first place. Like, they basically said, forget any NDAs we have in place. Forget about any agreements that we have in place. We're just going to knock all of the brands that have been hiring us to do this for all this time out of the way. And we're just going to go to the American public and say, by the way, you can buy it direct from us and you can buy it for less. Like, that was the very thing that everybody was.
- [02:26]
Camille
That was the fear that's why. That's why this. This bubbling conversation has been happening. My. The only thing that, for me, I wanted to unpack with you from a brand perspective is I'm like 50. 50. On. On one hand, it's like we've been ignoring the reality that it's been changing because there's just anywhere I go. The person that, like, at the nail salon, like, her shirt is Chanel, you know, like, her bag behind her is. Is Dior. You know, like, it's at a place now where, like, what these brands represent. The Uber Eats driver the other day had a Louis Vuitton shirt on. Like, it's gotten to a point where it's like, we knew that that supply chain has changed, that access has changed, that, like, the ability to do fakes, but, like, also really good fakes has changed. The question is, like, if we've known this for years and now this has come forward, where does it go? I want to say that it's over. I want to say that it's done, but, like. But no way, right? Like, that's what I mean. No way. Because we've known this. It's like we haven't wanted to talk about it.
- [03:30]
Bill Harper
Well, I don't think you can stop this. This is kind of what I was talking about with the Ferrari example. Like, you're not going to stop people aspiring to something that is considered out of reach, Right. Or prestigious. If Ferrari costs $300,000 and only a couple people can afford a Ferrari per year, right. You're still going to have people aspiring to be a part of that activity because they like chasing the aspiration. So whether it's, you know, if. If all of these brands came crashing down and, you know, people stopped buying them and all the rest of would just be replaced by new aspirational brands, that people would start the progress process all over again. Because businesses are going to charge what they can get for a product, and that's going to continue to escalate. And as that continues to escalate, people are going to opt in or opt out. Not everybody can afford a $20,000 bag, but for the people who can, they're really excited and proud about having bought it. So knowing what it actually costs is one thing, but changing human. Human behavior is something completely different. And I think that's where the rub is going to be. So even if I know that they're charging excessive, now I have to make a decision of I knew that they were charging something that was excessive. I might not have known how much, but you Know what? I still want to be a part of that brand. So I'm curious to see how does that play out fundamentally.
- [04:57]
Camille
I agree with you. The only wrinkle in my brain is you can't order a Ferrari from Aliexpress. And even, you know, and even when you order like a Rolex from Aliexpress, there the weight difference of gold is different. Right? So it. But the question is like when you're buying a 48, 000 leather bag that literally costs eight, eight. Like, I guess my question is the aspirational purchases will always be there. But will will that the. The mystique of what, of what branding did. Do you think that we'll have those crazy of margins if that piece is blown out?
- [05:37]
Bill Harper
I don't think it will be. I think. Okay, here's what I think. I think people have very short memories. Okay, so here's what I think. I think it will be all the hot news for a minute and people will judge and change and judge and change for a minute and then everything will get quiet and something else will capture their attention and, and then very quietly, the people who really like it will go back to it. And if those people continue to purchase and are willing to purchase, then any drop that happened in price is going to go right back up to what the market will bear. And that goes right back to my argument about the aspirational thing. I don't think any of these brands are going to close because of this. I don't think that long term, unless China does something like what I was joking about a minute ago, you know, China Direct or whatever. And it's like you don't care that it doesn't have the logo. You just wanted the bag, which some people will do. I mean, I think that's going to be an issue. I would worry more if I was the brand, not about people getting angry about the cost. I would worry more about China actually selling the bag without the logo or God forbid, with the logo to a lower buyer because that will suck the aspiration out of it. If I'm, if I'm the person who created Ferrari and a Ferrari cost me, I don't know, a hundred thousand dollars to make and I can charge $300,000 for it because the market will bear that and I can be profitable as a company doing it and somebody does come out with a Ferrari light and they say, hey, we're going to sell it at $200,000 or whatever. What that does is it undercuts the value of, of the product by Turning it into more of a commodity that drops the price. And now the brand suffers because people who don't aspire and don't have the money to make that possible are eroding it from underneath. I know that's a weird economic argument to make.
- [07:36]
Camille
No, it's.
- [07:36]
Bill Harper
But I actually think that that's the bigger risk. I don't think it's that people will get angry and say, I'm never buying that again because they lied to me. They knew that there was a profit. They may not have known how much profit. But I really think the bigger long term problem is if the market becomes saturated or flooded, too heavy a word for this. But if less expensive options of the exact same thing simply minus the badge come in, in mass, then the brand is going to suffer a long term play. And I think that's, that's probably the bigger erosion problem than just people being angry about how much something actually costs.
- [08:18]
Camille
No, and you're right. And it's ultimately, it's like, I just think it's like the end of the world, you know, like, because when I think about when I grew up, I grew up poor and all that I wanted was like a designer bag. And I, now I'm an adult and I can afford a designer bag and I don't want the designer bag because now I feel like it's not, it's not, it, it's like a mental illness. Like, you know what I mean? Like now I, now I look at it and I'm like, man, are you good? Like I'd rather go and buy like a, an artisanal like handmade leather. Like Dior to me isn't cool. Like it was cool, but now. But I, but I also think what's an interesting piece because I want you to move into the visibility over profitability. I think that's such a great argument because does a brand become less visible if it's less aspirational? Like that is kind of the, the piece is like if we always knew that there was a margin. But the people who set the tone of like this is cool, stop buying it. Does it? Do you have that, that visibility in order to drive the lower price? That's just kind of where my brain is at with this.
- [09:20]
Bill Harper
Yeah. So let's think about that for a second. So it's a great question. So let's say for example, that the Dior people stopped buying Dior, right? Because now other people can afford it. So it's no longer cool to have it. What happens to the value of the Brand. The people who were the aspirational ones that are there turn away and go to something else. And the folks that couldn't have afforded it before suddenly start buying falls apart. The whole thing.
- [09:49]
Camille
To me, when the Uber driver, the UberEats deliverers showing wearing a Louis Vuitton shirt. When I see people with money wearing Louis Vuitton shirt, I'm like, you're not. That's. That's not cool. You're not cool. But. But I feel like it's the next gen, like, as, like my age, millennials get older. And we're like, are you for real? Like, is this good?
- [10:06]
Bill Harper
Well, so my dad was. My dad was this way. And this, I think, is kind of to your point, but coming at it just a little bit of a different angle on the hill. My father would not wear a shirt that had a logo on it. He thought I was nuts for wanting to wear a polo or an Izod shirt. He was. He was like, you're cracked. Why would you pay more to advertise for somebody else? Yeah, for his generation. He was like. Like he couldn't wrap his head around. The man never owned a single thing that had a badge on it his entire life and refused to buy it if it did. Meanwhile, I was on the other side, like, salivating, wanting to pop my collar with my Izod shirt because all the cool kids were popping their collars with their eyes, and my dad was, like, whacking me on the back of the head. He's like, what's wrong with you?
- [10:51]
Camille
You're an idiot.
- [10:52]
Bill Harper
Yeah. You know, and it. It reminds me of the McLemore song, right? About, like, that's $50 for a T shirt, right? Like, come on, man, pay attention. You can walk down to a thrift store if you really want the polo. And this is absolutely true. I was. I was doing this with my daughter the other day. We went to the Goodwill store. There's a new Goodwill store that's very close to our house. And she was like, dad, I really want to go. And as I'm like, okay, fine, I'll go. And I'm perusing through the guy's stuff, and here's $100 polo shirt for $4.20. Perfectly good condition. Somebody had just had it in their closet and was like, I never wear that. And they gave it to Goodwill. And I was like, this is smart. Like, if you want it, just go get it used or, you know, find your way around it. But I. I don't know. I. I think the whole no, but.
- [11:47]
Camille
You know what to what you just said, it actually hit me really hard during COVID because in those like early weeks when you're like, is this the apocalypse? Like, where is this going? I. All I could do is look at all this, the stuff that I had accumulated. And I.
- [12:04]
Bill Harper
First word was right, yeah, that I've accumulated.
- [12:08]
Camille
And I'm like, I have the newest phone, I have the newest laptop. I'm like, but none of this shit is worth anything if there's no demand for it. And it was like the first time I really realized my own idiocracy. Because like, when shit hits the fan, that's why you need to save money. That's why I need to have cash in the bank. Because you go to the Goodwill store and all the shit that was 120 bucks bucks two years ago is for three bucks. Because there's no demand. And it's such a complicated. I mean, obviously that's what branding is at its core and what we like, we need to get into. But it really, when things like this happen, it really just kind of puts you in your, in, in our faces, like how much we're a consumer culture without thinking.
- [12:51]
Bill Harper
Yeah. And I think that's, that's a big thing. I am very much against the idea that marketing sells stuff to people that they don't need. Yeah, I don't believe that for a minute. I believe that people already desire. The brand's job is to say, this is what we stand for. So I'll use Volvo as an example. Yeah, Volvo. All cars are under the safe state, same safety requirements. Okay? They all have.
- [13:19]
Camille
This is an alchemy, such a great point.
- [13:21]
Bill Harper
Such a stupid thing, but they invented the three point harness, so the seat belt more or less belongs to them. Now nobody remembers that because every car in the world now, now, you know, has them. But Volvo, however many years ago that was 80 years, whatever was like, dude, we're all about safety. That's it. That's all we're going to talk about now. Again, completely ridiculous. Volvo is no safer than hasn't won.
- [13:46]
Camille
A safety award in like 20 years.
- [13:48]
Bill Harper
Or something crazy or a Volkswagen or anything else, by and large. And frankly, Mercedes is the one that owns it anyways. Mercedes just doesn't care about that that way. But anybody who is in the marketplace who wants the safest car is gonna go to Volvo and it's gonna go to Volvo. Because the brand said, look, when safety is your primary concern, at whatever point in your life, please come see our boxes. Right? And that's it. So a brand's job is not to sell stuff people don't need because people won't buy stuff that they don't need. What they will buy is stuff that they were already interested in. And the more the brand can show. Hey, we're for people who love paintings of purple cows, not purple cats. That's the other guy. Purple cows. You want purple cow paintings? We're the ones who know it. Those are the folks that are going to get all the buyers for that particular thing. This is what Volvo knows. So Volvo comes out and doesn't say they're sporty, and it doesn't say that they have great resale value. And it doesn't say that they, I don't know, do whatever. They simply say, we're safe. And so they get all the people that want safety as their first thing. And I was thinking, you know, this is an older man's argument, right? Like Volvo is. This has been this way forever. But I'm also in my 50s, so as I look at that, I'm like, is that still true? Got on the phone with a client the other day and made that argument. She goes, that's why I bought mine. I'm like, you're 20 nothing years old. She goes, well, yeah, but I wanted a safe car, so I bought that. She goes, and all my friends tease me about it. And I was like, okay, there's validation for me that it's not an old man's.
- [15:26]
Camille
No. And in fact, their SUV design is nice like that. I actually almost wanted to buy it too, because I'm like, all I care about is. I hate the. My only thing that keeps me up at night is like car accidents. So like the safe. That's why I got the Mazda, because the Mazda actually won the safety award. But, But Volvo, I looked at them, thought they were very nice SUVs. But I also. You. Have you read Competing Against Luck?
- [15:51]
Bill Harper
No, but I should.
- [15:52]
Camille
It is so good. It's effectively the, the. The TED Talk. If I was to summarize it into a TED Talk, it's that the best brands, the first. The first question or the first thing that they identify is like, what is the job to be done? And Volvo is. One of those case studies is that I guess it was sold but to a Chinese company and Asian company back in the 60s and 70s. I don't know. I don't know the deeds don't fact check me on it. But there was some point that there was a sale. They moved away from that safety message and I believe that they had resold it off because the brand wasn't performing. And then when a new CEO came in, I'm like, what is the job to be done? What is the. And it's just another way of saying what you said is when you identify that there's a job to be done and that the job to be done is like to be the safest company car. When you double down on that, people didn't even question the safety standards or the awards, that it just solved the job to be done that the customer was looking to do. It's such a great he. The way that he frames it and phrases it. It's such a fantastic way of looking at when people want to be the jack of all trades. Like they, they're not solving the job to be done, which is why their brand goes off track.
- [17:01]
Bill Harper
My favorite example of that is when Las Vegas hired the woman from Disney. This is my all time favorite example of a brand that lost its way. So Vegas's thing is, their tagline now is what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. Which is what people had always said. But the reason that it now became their tagline is because there was a time when Vegas was sort of not performing as well or they were looking for growth or whatever. At any rate, a woman from Disney somehow got involved in the conversation. And in essence, this Disney representative said, you guys own the night part, but nobody's doing anything with the day part. Think of all the money you're throwing away. And Disney for a hot minute was like, you know, that actually makes some sense. So she comes in, she goes, look, you got venues, you've got shows, you've got restaurants, you've got shopping, you've got all these activities, you've got all these hotels. You should do something during the day so that you're getting it from both sides. You get the party thing at night and you get the family thing during the day, and it's going to be great. Here's the problem. When you and your buddies are celebrating your last friend who's getting married, and you've been out until six in the morning on a bender and you're stumbling back into the hotel, the last thing in the world you want to see is mom, dad, Janie and Jimmy on their way to get Britney Spears autograph before brunch.
- [18:26]
Camille
Totally.
- [18:27]
Bill Harper
And people were like, you know, so this happened and people stopped going and Vegas was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, where are you going? Where are you going? Yeah, they were like, come back, come back. So they summarily fired the woman from Disney and they came out with this big ad campaign that was what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, which was the big mea culpa of the brand saying, we forgot who we were for a second. Sorry, sorry. Come on. All the sin is happening, like, because.
- [18:53]
Camille
The job to be done is. It's the place to go to let loose. That's the job to be done.
- [18:59]
Bill Harper
Right? That's exactly right. So they just. But that's my favorite story about it because people are like, oh, well, you know, once a brand is established, then they can just go off. No, they can't. It's a fragile relationship that's held and it's not even a relationship, but there's a fragile expectation that exists and you have to maintain that expectation. And the more defined it is, the better. And the more consistently you do it, the better. And businesses have forgotten that. They think it's about features and benefits and dumb like that. So they can't understand why they don't grow the way that they want. But the, the answer is to the point you made. They're not paying attention to what problem they're solving and therefore they wander and they think it's about pricing or they think it's about promotions or they think about whatever. And all that does is erode the brand's value and they just don't know it because they're chasing the number of the week or the month or the quarter. And it's, it's a shame to watch, but I mean, I spend as I imagine you probably do, the majority of my time not doing creative development or strategy. It's walking leadership teams through the education process. To say, you're hurting yourself. Here's how you're hurting yourself. Please see that you're hurting yourself. And you know, I think people have such a misperception of what advertising really is. We are therapists to the under educated mba, thanks Harvard, that don't understand that somebody actually has to buy from this perfect little ecosystem engine that you've done. So you know, all the way back to the way that MBA programs teach it, it's like, oh come on and learn all the important stuff. Operations, finance, managerial, calculus, infrastructure, whatever. Oh, and then yeah, there's those pesky marketing classes. But like hurry up and do those and check them off the list and then come back and talk about SWOT analysis and important stuff like that. And you see these guys coming a million miles away and they're just like marching up to the thing and they're like, I've got a case study and I've got a SWOT analysis and I'm ready to go. And I'm like, you don't know dick. Sit down, shut up. And you might accidentally learn something. Like, you have to appeal to those people. And they're like, well, if we make a great product, it'll appeal. I'm like, no, it won't. And it's, it is. It's the hardest part of the job, in my opinion, to stay fresh and not get jaded or cynical at people or frustrated flat out who don't get this and are so focused on, I'm going to make a better mousetrap. I'm going to make a better mousetrap. I'm like, look at Liquid Death. They just became a billion dollar valuated company for putting water in a can. Find me the innovation in that. You can't. It's all a brand story and that's what people respond to. The more we can get that across, the better. But I swear, 2000 TikTok videos in talking about this stuff every day, no one's any smarter for it than they were when I started. So it's definitely pushing a rock uphill.
- [21:51]
Camille
I just, I've got, I just got a small tear that, I got that on camera because it was just so good.
- [21:57]
Bill Harper
So good. Yeah, man, it was so good.
- [22:00]
Camille
I was just like, I was just over here in the back, the Phantom one. I just, I hope all the audience, listeners are gonna be like, Bill Harper. No, because you're so right. Like, I just, I, I. Okay. Conversations derailed. Let's just complain about the MBAs and branding because it's, they're truly killing brands. Liquid Death is such a perfect example because it's creative, founder owned.
- [22:23]
Bill Harper
Yeah.
- [22:23]
Camille
And I, and the average. I have all. I'm sure you've got the same experience. They're like, I love your Tick Tock videos. I'm gonna hire you. It's another big brand whose name you know. And then I come in and they're like, we got a social issue. We're shadow banned. Our social are performing. I'm like, no. Like, no idea. Like, nobody cares about your ad that's on TikTok. Like it's. No, you can't buy our attention anymore. Like, you actually have to show up and you actually have to try.
- [22:49]
Bill Harper
I think that this is the same cyclical thing that we were talking about with like my dad and the shirt logos and then, you know, following generations wanting to show off their brand. I think that this goes up and down and up and down. So I remember to steal a line from a comic. Gather around the Snapchat and I'll tell you a story. The I remember before the Internet was here and the traditional model was that there were three pieces to this puzzle. There was an ad agency, there was a PR group and there was a media company. And just like the Three Bears, like this was the trio forever, forever, forever of branding. And then along came banner ads. And the second a banner ad hit the world, Roaz was banned born you can buy this ridiculously small size which still may. Why are there 728 by 90 banners in the world anymore?
- [23:44]
Camille
Couldn't answer. Has caused a lot of frustration and gray hair.
- [23:48]
Bill Harper
Why? Why 320 by 50 banner? Shoot the person. The reason that those banner sizes exist was because when you had dial up, that was all the bandwidth there was. There is no reason for anything short of a page takeover at this point in time. None. None whatsoever. These little ridiculous banners. And by the way, for those of you who follow Harvard math, banner ads get one out of a thousand people clicking and 50% of those were trying to hit the little X to make it go away. Okay, that's one in a thousand. I could run the most boring direct mail ever and do better. 1 to 3%. Now it does not take a Harvard MBA to sit and understand that that's 1 to 3,000% better. And yet the, the, the draw, the siren song, the opioid addiction of our generation in this industry of roas, the crack addict like behavior of roas is so strong they would rather run dumb shit that will never work than they would to run stuff that will simply because they can track it. They would rather track failure than they would to have the ambiguity of roi. And that truth is the hardest part of the industry right now. And it's what's crushing brands. Show me that it works. I'll show you your business grows. That's not enough. I have to know that when I ran a print ad it did this many things along then comes QR codes. They'll scan it. But people aren't going to take the time to scan a QR code. It's a fraction of the people. So the people who do marketing have a really pretty arduous road, you know, ahead of them that is paved with broken glass and shattered dreams. Because the thing they're trying to do, which is to tell a great story, is the last thing in the world the clients that they have want them to do on their behalf. It is the great conundrum of our industry.
- [25:51]
Camille
Yeah, totally gets. Honestly, I just, I just keep thinking.
- [25:54]
Bill Harper
I'm getting that second tier, man. I'm going for that second tier on the other side.
- [26:01]
Camille
Yes. There's just. Podcast is over. We got it all. No, I, I agree, I agree. I just, I think that for me it's just, I'm so glad I'm not alone. Like, I just, I, I feel like I'm in this, like this clown house where people are watching our content and they're like, I love what you say, I love your perspective, I love your point. But bottom of the funnel, man, it's really working for us.
- [26:29]
Bill Harper
And you're like, no, it's not. So I was not.
- [26:31]
Camille
You can just measure it.
- [26:32]
Bill Harper
I was at a digital summit two years ago and at the very end of the last day, like the 4:30 session on the Friday where nobody goes, LinkedIn did a thing, I, I have slides from it that I took pictures of from the audience because you knew damn well they weren't going to share it. And they came out and very quietly had this nice woman that stood up in the front of this room with the like hundred that were still left that were sitting there and she said, performance marketing doesn't actually work.
- [27:06]
Camille
She said, and it's like during the coffee break when they like bring the.
- [27:09]
Bill Harper
Free place, everybody else is at the bar. Like everybody else from the conference is at the bar. And she's in there and she goes, here's Nielsen reports that prove it. Here's our data that proves it. Here's something else. Like they were literally going slide by slide and saying performance marketing absent awareness, marketing absent visibility in a, in a more profound way, can only reach 8 to 10%. And it's really more like 5 to 8. So they're like, you know, this, this, this hoax that they've been selling about. Bottom of the funnel is going to work because it's shooting fish in a barrel. These people have already self identified. They're at the moment of decision. All you have to do is stand there with your harpoon and these fish are going to swim into the barrel and you're going to stab them. And it's zero waste. The zero waste argument is such a load of crap because nobody buys a brand that they don't know. If I say, hey Camille, do you want to buy a Honda or a Voodoo do? Your answer is going to be Honda. Every time when I say, why, you're going to say, because I've never heard of a Voodoo doo. And yet for whatever reason, business owners are like, oh, no, no. But the fish are in the barrel. And I'm like, there's a billion fish out there. You got six fish in this barrel and you're satisfied with that. And they're like, roas, you know, whack them on my head. I'm like, stop.
- [28:32]
Camille
I love. I mean, the whole concept of like a brand is the absence of anxiety. Like, that's a whole other thing too, to dig into.
- [28:39]
Bill Harper
I haven't heard that before. That's a new.
- [28:41]
Camille
Oh, really?
- [28:42]
Bill Harper
Wow, that's a neat phrase.
- [28:44]
Camille
About time. 36 minutes in.
- [28:49]
Bill Harper
The absence of anxiety.
- [28:52]
Camille
Yeah, he's taking a note, everybody. The. I can't. I can't.
- [28:57]
Bill Harper
Wow, I love that. That's great.
- [28:59]
Camille
Well, it's like, it's the, it's the idea that, like, especially with all these Amazon brands, right. It's. It's actually a passage in my book. It's. That's not out yet. But the, the whole concept is a cheer point. You. You brought up a much funnier word. But it's. There's like this brand on Amazon, True story, and it's called. Called Continue dot us. So it's like continuous. But, you know, all the Amazon brands, they always come. It's like you didn't even try. Like you didn't spend five minutes. Like, it just. It's so clearly an Amazon brand. And they. It. When I was searching digital TVs, and I'm like, the whole point. And Rory Sutherland talks about this more prominently that you, you only. You buy what you trust because you've had all of those data points. And that's what most people miss, especially in the digital age, is that you have to show up and invest in your audience. Because it's not on the first. It's not the harpoon. It's not. They see the fish like they need a need, but they need to, like, date. They need to, like, get to know you. They need to, like, see what you're about. And that's what people are so delusional with, whether it comes to content, whether it comes to marketing, whether it comes to investing in your community. Like, you have to keep showing up.
- [30:02]
Bill Harper
Yeah.
- [30:02]
Camille
And I do want you to touch on your point. So I think it's brilliant, your visibility over profitability, because it's so much clearer for the average person.
- [30:10]
Bill Harper
Yeah. My belief is that if you're not visible, you can't be profitable the way you need to be. Like. Yeah. And this is the problem. Right. Everybody makes a little money because There are early adopters out there that will, that will limp along with your business. And then what happens is this super stupid transition where they start protecting what they have and they stop playing to win and they start playing it safe. And they're protecting mediocrity and they don't understand that they're protecting mediocrity. So it's like, we have some buyers. And I'm like, yes, but the, the task now is to go to the masses. Like, you've locked in your early adopter, your small group, your 10, 15% that are like early adopter. Now you have to become visible to become profitable with the masses. You got to change. And it's like the change in thinking from getting to 1 million is different than getting to 10 million, and 10 million is different than getting to 100, and 100 is different than getting to a billion. And they are each psychological changes in how you function as a business in order to achieve that kind of growth. But the founder mentality is like so dialed in about what they believe, it's really hard to shake them loose. And, and they just don't think visibility is important. Now when I, I used to be kind of shy about it, but I'm not anymore. Now I'm like, look, here's this example with the Honda Voodoo do thing. Like, does that make sense to you? And if that one doesn't, I got another one. And if that one doesn't, I got another one. And I just keep coming after them until finally they're like, okay, so what you're saying is right. And then at that moment we start to make some traction. But it's, it's a hard argument. It's a super hard argument because the behavior they do as a consumer is so different than the behavior that they do as an owner or a representative of the company. And it's really hard to shake them of those two things.
- [31:58]
Camille
Well, it's also the, there's, there's so much randomness but also unconscious priming that has happened that makes your buying decision as a consumer. That's like, to your point, like when you get people to step back and really think about it. And that's why I also tell people, like, you really have to study content. Like people, the people are just like ambiently consuming the world. They're not studying the decisions and what they've been primed to make. But it also, ultimately it also comes down to the dollar for today versus the dollar for tomorrow.
- [32:31]
Bill Harper
That's a great point.
- [32:32]
Camille
And it's a lot of Business owners don't want to risk what they have now because of the risk of they don't know what it's going to be.
- [32:38]
Bill Harper
Yeah, yeah, for sure. So what, what things are you most interested in now as a marketer? Where is your interest lie? Where do you want to push brands right now? What do you think is the biggest problem to be solved for businesses that want to grow that, that you're working with?
- [32:58]
Camille
Well, they, the issue is that they're, they're thinking in terms of marketing when they need to be thinking in terms of branding. Like, they don't understand the variable of time. Like our concept of timing and branding is what's lost. Because, like they want every single post to have an roi. They want, they want every single. The human brain can't conceptualize, especially busy business owners, if they're even investing in their own brand, that taking the time, the 10, 15 minutes to show up to that post and to put it out there and for it to get 100 views, they can't understand how that's going to compound in three, four, five years. So the, the cost payoff of investing in a brand, like just to have pay influencers that have a million followers to show up to do a post versus investing in your community that, that you can't see. That direct immediate ROI is, is kind of the piece that I'm trying to, to like, to put into their brain is like, stop looking for perpetually higher quarters. Look to build a brand that's going to last because that, that's what you need.
- [33:59]
Bill Harper
Yeah, I, the argument I use on that all the time is going to the gym. It's the only one I've found that they can kind of wrap their, at least that I've been able to use that, that they can wrap their head around. It's like, I don't know what day you go to the gym that you start seeing the result. I can't tell you that. So the ROI on going to the gym is that you know it's gonna happen. That's your roi. You just don't know when I can't stay, you're suddenly gonna see the vein in your bicep. 17 days and 3 hours into going to the gym, what I can say is every day you don't go consecutively, that date gets pushed out. That's what I can tell you. Because that is the piece that I know. And that's the only example that I've found that even begins to get a ring of resignation. Like, oh, okay, so it's not just that I ran something. I mean I can't tell you how many clients I've had over the years that run an ad. And it goes. And they're like, didn't work.
- [34:57]
Camille
You suck. What the heck?
- [34:58]
Bill Harper
Yeah. Where, where's the return? And I'm like, you ran an ad, it's been out three days. What were you expecting? Growth? And I'm like, that's not, that's not how that works.
- [35:07]
Camille
No, honey, no. Like, if it was that easy, imagine how hard it would be.
- [35:12]
Bill Harper
You know, everybody would be rich. Like, I ran an ad and this is my favorite thing for the doom scrollers are the ones that, you know, you sit there and they're like these, there are these videos of people supposedly watching their E commerce. Their at home E commerce jammy stores blow up and they're like, oh my gosh, I used insert app here to buy my media and like I got $2,000 the first day and $30,000 the next day and now I'm making $100,000 a week. And I'm like, bullshit, you are. There's no, like, I don't care if you're selling free puppies and crack cocaine. You're not getting that kind of a return in that kind of time running stuff on in this environment that is a literal river, an ocean of advertising that is falling all over everybody. So I don't know. It's. I think that that's another part of it is that there's so much false promise that's happening in social media now about so easy. All you got to do is three steps to blah, blah, blah. And I think that the, the desire for it to be true is just so strong. Like I want her to like me, right? So if I just put on, try maybe I just put on this T shirt, she's going to see I'm cool. Like it's almost that kind of like junior high boy mentality is. And that's exactly what it feels like. And it's got to be charming for longer than that.
- [36:39]
Camille
I, it actually, I feel like when it clicked when you were talking is like I can understand why kind of like the Gary Vee at this point in his career like gets a bit aggressive in his mouth message. Like I, I think that it actually, like I finally, I finally get it because there's it, it's interesting. There's on one hand it's like you don't really want it if you're not showing up. But two, you also, it's, it's also not really about wanting something that's superficial. Like, it's. It. It. It shouldn't be about just all the money. Like, it should actually be about the purpose. And that's like the new way of kind of approaching it is if you want a million followers, like, to truly have a million followers that's actually worth something. Like, it shouldn't be just going to zero to a million in 30 days. Like, that means that what you're actually looking for has no meaning. If it's that easy. And we've, we've lost sight of like, the meaning of what it means to have something great. And that's why I love studying, like the Trader Joe's case studies and the Four Seasons case studies. Like, we just feel like we're in this copy paste world where, like, you know, you can just post for 15 days and then you're going to be this like most. But then on the other hand, the thing that is positive and exciting is if you actually are showing up and posting every single day on the Internet, you are a part of such a small pool of people and things that if you can just get past the, like, you feel dumb, you look stupid in the beginning. Not every video is going to hit. And that's what I loved about your page, is that I feel the same way. I do the same thing. Like, if I put out a video and it doesn't do gangbusters, like, I keep it there, I feel like so many creators remove stuff that isn't like, over a certain threshold. And I'm like, I'm not here to make it look like I'm big. I'm just here to show up every day to give value.
- [38:16]
Bill Harper
Oh, yeah. If you look at some of the original ones and even some of the recent ones, like, they're horrendous. Like, some of them same. And it's okay, they're just totally shitty. But I mean, here's the thing. Let's say you got to a million. Like, somebody the other day stopped me and they were like, you have 160,000 followers. Then they said the most ridiculous thing. You're TikTok famous. And I burst out laughing. I said, there are 370 million people in the United States. I'm not a rounding error. My voice is completely unheard. You think for one second I have any influence on this? Like, I have 160,000 people that are listening and that's it. Like, that's not even like 160,000 business.
- [38:58]
Camille
Owners that I think that. But before we move on from that that's a very important piece is that people look to numbers opposed to impact.
- [39:06]
Bill Harper
Yeah. But even so, like, is anybody losing sleep because they missed a Bill Harper TikTok video? Absolutely, positively not. Like, and that's why I think it's funny. Like, the, the ridiculousness of fame. My father was a disc jockey, so I was around singers all the time because he was on the radio. Right. So I saw people that were famous. So that didn't hold quite the same thing for me that I think it did for other people. I mean, I was still oodinot every once in a while, but by and large, mostly they were just people that were really good at something. And so, like, there was that. I've got people that will get on a discovery call with me and they're like, shell shocked. They look at me, they're like, oh my gosh, like, I can't believe I'm talking to you. And I just. I crack up. I'm like, you've got to be kidding. Right?
- [39:53]
Camille
But that's what. But that's also how powerful the perception though, of showing up is. Like, the phone is the modern day TV screen.
- [40:01]
Bill Harper
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
- [40:03]
Camille
You know, like, But I also think what's super crazy too, as like an upside is like, I've met some of my greatest friends on the Internet. I freaking love the Internet.
- [40:11]
Bill Harper
Yeah, right.
- [40:12]
Camille
Like, I find it's always by zan. I'm like, oh my God. By saying, like, here's another one. Like, I bought a much better life through the screen. I actually had a. I had my. A friend of mine that moved to London, England for a hot minute and she came back and we were catching up and she's like, so, like, who do you talk to these days? And I'm like, well, haven't really thought about it, but since you were in real life and you've known me since university, all my friends are Internet friends.
- [40:40]
Bill Harper
They're at work, there's a screen.
- [40:43]
Camille
I really love them. And I was like, I was like, you know, I never really thought about it until I was like, questioned by, you know, a past version of me and. But she was like, didn't even laugh. It actually makes perfect sense. Like, I totally get it, but it was. It's such a funny phenomenon when you're. When you transition to the digital world.
- [41:01]
Bill Harper
Yeah, it, it really is. And the, to your point, the, the reach is the thing that surprised me most. That was like, I got on. I'm sure you've heard me talk about this, but I got on to prove to somebody that TikTok wouldn't work for me. Like, no way.
- [41:16]
Camille
I don't know the story. Tell me.
- [41:18]
Bill Harper
So the guy, Tom Lotriciano, is a guy that sold his business. Yeah, yeah, right. That's. I got another one for you. This even. But anyway, so Tom sold his business. He's a little older than I am, maybe eight or ten years older than I am, and he consults now, and I have shared office space where our agency is. And one day he walks into my office and he's like, bill, I really think you should go on TikTok. And I literally laughed him out of my office. I was like, get out of here. Like. Like, I don't even let my kids on TikTok. Teenagers shaking their ass. I'm like, get out of here. And he kept coming back and he was like, no, no, no, you really should get on. I think you'd be good at it. I don't think you understand the platform. You really should be good at it. And eventually he came to me, he said, I've got this seminar that I'm going to do. Please come. I've got a TikTok, a guy that's TikTok famous that's going to tell us how to start laughing. I was like, what the hell is TikTok famous? He's like. He recreated MTV, whatever. The one was where they put all the alcohol together in the same room and then watch them devolve into.
- [42:19]
Camille
I don't know.
- [42:20]
Bill Harper
Anyway, there's. I've forgotten what it's called. Real life. Real life. That was it. So anyway, so he was like. He recreated the real life and it blew up and he's got like a million followers or whatever, and like, he understands how social media works. And so I went to go see it and what I finally realized about it was that there was some kind of a story aspect to it. Like, the way he had done it was episodic.
- [42:44]
Camille
And so for him, it's like totally like, for the brain, it's like, quick to the point.
- [42:49]
Bill Harper
But he also showed me a guy who was using a crappy camera, unboxing aftermarket turbo kits for trucks, who had, like half a million followers.
- [43:01]
Camille
Wow.
- [43:01]
Bill Harper
And it was breathtaking because I was like, really? So anyway, so Tom kept after me about it. He was like, you know, if you'll just get on. I was. I was leaving the room and he was pointing back to this entire group of people and he goes, just get on. None of them are going to do it. And some of the people in the room were brands. You would know. 50, 100 million dollar brands. He goes, none of them are going to do this because they all think it's ridiculous. Please just show me I'm wrong. And I was like, I'll show you that you're wrong. So I got on and I did a video. And the first video got like 300 things, and boy, did he know me. I was like, well, shit, I can do better than that. So I went back on and I did another one. And that one got like 1500 views, which at the time I didn't realize was actually really good, something that people would, like, want to have. And the next thing you know, it was 3,000 and then it was 10,000 and then it was 15. And by that time, my phone starts ringing and people are like, hey, can you be on my podcast? Can you be on a TV segment? Can you, you know, do this, do this? And I literally went on and made one video that said, hey, I'm going to open up this thing called Brand Boss hq. It's for small businesses that want to use the same tools and playbook that big businesses use to create brand. And I filled three months of my calendar in two weeks.
- [44:16]
Camille
Cool. And what was the offer?
- [44:19]
Bill Harper
Okay, it was. It was just for a free evaluation. Like, I'll just sit down and talk with you for 30 minutes, take a quick look at your brand, tell you what I see. That's it. And out of that came a river of business. And so it was a totally different thing. But what got me was, okay, so here's this activity, and, you know, I'm getting all these comments. And the comments were so complimentary. It was like, this is the first time marketing has made sense to me. Like, I'm learning more about this than I did at college. And I was like, wow, that's like, thank you. You know, that's nice. And I told the tow truck story, and a guy from Germany saw the tow truck story, calls me and says, can I translate this into German? And I was like, knock yourself out. Yeah, go ahead. So he does, and he tags me in it. Two months later, I have a discovery call with someone in Germany. And he gets on and he's all excited. He's talking German. I was like, I don't speak German. And he finally goes, I was at a beer garden telling a guy I know locally about this concept that I wanted to talk to you about today, this brand I want to launch. And he says, you got to talk to this guy, Bill Harper. And he says, and he takes his phone out and shows me your TikTok. And I'm like, I know that guy. I have a meeting with him. And I said, let me get this right. You saw a video of mine in Germany and then had a conversation about me in Germany to another guy that then came back around and set a meeting. He was like, I'm like, really? And about that time, everything opened up. Like, I just got back from Australia where I was invited to be the keynote speaker for the Australian Distillers conference, all because one of the distillers saw a TikTok video. That's the power of this platform. And it, it continues to blow me away.
- [46:10]
Camille
It changed your life.
- [46:11]
Bill Harper
Changes your life.
- [46:12]
Camille
But can I have the tow truck story?
- [46:14]
Bill Harper
Yeah. So the purpose of the tow truck story is to get business leaders back in the seat of their target audience. And so the tow truck story goes like this. Imagine that you're on your way to something really important. Don't care. It's you're emceeing your parents 50th wedding anniversary. It's the biggest deal of your career. It doesn't matter, whatever, but it's really important. And today's the big day. And so you're all dressed up in your Sunday best and you've got your portfolio or your presentation or whatever. You jump in the car, you look at your watch and you're feeling good. It's a 30 minute drive to get there and you have an hour to do it. You're feeling like, I'm going to get there, I'm going to have 30 minutes to kill. It's going to be great. As you pull out of the garage, it's raining cats and dogs, sleet, hail, whatever. It's nasty out. And as you pull onto the highway, you pop a flat. Worst thing ever. Now, you'd normally just get out and fix the tire and on you'd go. But it's raining cats and dogs and you're in your Sunday best and you're on your way to this thing and you don't want to look like a drowned rat when you get there, so you call for a tow truck. Truck takes the tow truck driver 15 minutes to get there. Okay, tow truck driver gets out of the car, walks up, knocks on the glass and says, did you order a truck? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You say, looking at your watch, I ordered a truck. I ordered a truck. He says, you made the right decision. Calling our towing company. See, our towing company has been in business longer than any other towing company. In the world. Our hiring process is more rigorous, and we've been awarded more than. Than anybody else. Now, that truck back there, we worked with Mack Truck to produce a truck nobody else has. That's proprietary for us. And the tires on there, now, those are the ones that are really special. We worked with Michelin. They won't slip in water like this because your car is your second biggest investment. And we know that what's important to you is protecting that second biggest investment. We do this for you because we care about you. What are you thinking about? The entire time this idiot is talking, they've taken care of me, got up and fixed my tire.
- [48:05]
Camille
So I'm like, wow, this is a great experience, right?
- [48:08]
Bill Harper
So now imagine the exact same thing. Same truck, same everybody. Only this time, the guy walks up, knocks on the glass, and says, did you order truck? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You say ordered a truck. Great. Armada is on the road in 15 minutes or less. We know you've got things to do. And he goes to work. Who are you going to avoid like the plague? Who are you going to tell every friend about? Same company, different brand story. The first tow truck driver is 99% of businesses on the planet. The second tow truck driver is Dollar Shave, Club, Poo, Pourri, Apple, Nike, Disney. The ones that know it's not about them. And that's the big difference. So this story has been copied and talked about and fortunately has kind of become a thing. But the purpose of it was designed for a meeting that I had with Blue Cross Blue Shield one day because I had 15 people in a room, and I needed a way for them to understand what was going wrong with marketing, and I needed them to understand it very quickly.
- [49:04]
Camille
What a great story. And you're so correct. You're so correct.
- [49:10]
Bill Harper
It's just easy, right? I mean, it's. It's just.
- [49:13]
Camille
It's the. It's the. The Donald Miller story brand concept.
- [49:17]
Bill Harper
Yeah.
- [49:17]
Camille
It's the you they want to guide. They want to get to their event. They like they are the hero. They've got their story back to get back to to. And they just want that solution that allows their story to get to their destination.
- [49:30]
Bill Harper
The only thing that matters to the person in the truck is getting unstuck. That's all anybody cares about. Make my circumstance better. That's it. That's all anybody wants. People are like plants. They're so ridiculously predictable. They lean into opportunity and comfort and away from discomfort. That's what they do all the time. So if you understand what problem you're solving, then your story becomes very simple.
- [49:55]
Camille
What a great story, Bill Harper. I absolutely loved that. I have another question I meant to ask you. When did you get on TikTok? When did you start?
- [50:05]
Bill Harper
Two years and two and a half years now. Just.
- [50:09]
Camille
And you post every day?
- [50:12]
Bill Harper
Just about, yeah. If not every day, a couple of times a day. I mean, the. At some point, I guess it was maybe a year in, we hired a team to help support it because at that point you're talking about volume. Right. And it's more than any one person can really do and maintain. So there are different video types and I've got a small group that works with me that, that helps out on TikTok and Instagram and another team that works on long format for YouTube and that kind of thing.
- [50:40]
Camille
And how, and how many times per.
- [50:42]
Bill Harper
Day are you posting on which platforms?
- [50:44]
Camille
I need to rattle them off.
- [50:47]
Bill Harper
YouTube. The big ones go out once a week and the small ones are kind of a trickle off of what we do for the short forms and the other one. But like I said, now it's kind of a machine. Right? Like the, the TikTok and Instagram is posting every day, either once or twice a day, unless I get on a rant about something, which I do from time to time. But by and large, like the machine is kind of a once to twice a day. So maybe one and a half times a day. And then the, the long format is once a week.
- [51:14]
Camille
Yeah.
- [51:14]
Bill Harper
And I think that will dial up more as we get the podcast going and, you know, more clicks, more content.
- [51:21]
Camille
Yeah, yeah. Do you batch your content? Like, do you do like once every two weeks?
- [51:26]
Bill Harper
Say that again, I'm sorry.
- [51:27]
Camille
Do you batch your content? Like, do you record once every two weeks? Do you.
- [51:32]
Bill Harper
For the bigger recordings, we usually do one day every two weeks or three weeks. And then we'll get out of that. I don't know, 15, 20 videos that we can do. And then for the rest of the stuff, if you see me standing here or in the blue room, as everybody is now referring to it, the. Those things are ones that I'm doing independently. Those are, those are ones where I have an idea and I jump on just like I did at the very beginning and I'm just sharing an idea. The ones that are more produced that feel like, you know, they've got overlays and they've got, you know, like graphics flying around and all the rest of that, that's the stuff. Stuff that is batch produced.
- [52:09]
Camille
Cool. Cool. I was just like asking how other Creators approach it. I just, we don't, we don't talk enough, you know, like among, among each other of like, hey, what are you doing? I'm doing this.
- [52:20]
Bill Harper
But so what, what is the ideal client for you? Like who do you, who do you like working for? And I don't know anything about your agency or your team. How do you work? Are you, are you more consultant? Are you more agency? Like how are you structured?
- [52:34]
Camille
We are. So I'm at an interesting point in my career because I genuinely, I really love helping people. I'm at a point where like the demand is bigger than like what I can help. So I have an agency. I started in the, I had started an agency about 10 years ago and started young and that did well as professional service providers predominantly. And then the content really took off. So we typically do kind of more strategy and consult consulting. Like we do have designers, we have video editors. I prefer to work with people over brands only because I like to be able to get things done. I don't like the red tape. Like that's what I, I like to be able to be very candid and I don't like to be, you know, good idea. But you know, so typically now we, we. I find it's, it's kind of a funny way to say it but I, I really, I love to work with people who are aligned and I, it's really like who are a part of the tribe, like who subscribe to the thinking, who really have watched a lot of content. They're like, they're not interviewing anyone else. They're like, you're my person. And I've had really great align. I love people and I love people who love that, see that I love what I do. So I've got great relationships with medical spa owners, with people that do own product based brands or like, like I work very well with my friends over here but like I, but it's not about an industry, it's not a niche. It's like a niche and more like personality type. And I love the strategy and the consulting. I love to think, I love that I get paid to think. How about you?
- [54:06]
Bill Harper
Yeah, my, originally what I was madly in love with was coming up with stories that they shouldn't be able to afford. And that was kind of what I built my career on was how can I give you something that looks like it should have been from Madison Avenue but at a cost that, that shouldn't have been that way. And I loved doing that. I still love doing that.
- [54:26]
Camille
That's cool.
- [54:29]
Bill Harper
But we went through kind of an odd thing where what people really appreciated was the strategy. Like, they. They have less appreciation for the art of it now than they do for the strategic thinking of it now. So a lot of what we do is the development from research and strategy through brand development and creative directions. There's less of the big bring it to life thing.
- [55:02]
Camille
Yeah.
- [55:02]
Bill Harper
It's not to say that we don't do it. I would say about 60% of the clients that we work with.
- [55:06]
Camille
Same. Same here.
- [55:07]
Bill Harper
Yeah, but there's, you know, that 40%. Had we talked three years ago, three and a half years ago, it would have been 100% campaign work. Like, at that time, everybody we were working with was 25 million to 250 million. They were all campaign. They were all 5 million plus in media spend.
- [55:26]
Camille
Oh, wow.
- [55:27]
Bill Harper
It was all, it was all focused on that. This transition has been really interesting, and I find that the zone that you work in to be really hot right now. It's not one that I happen to serve, but I think it's really interesting to see the gig economy thing and the smaller, like, when I say smaller business, I mean, like, no, not the 25.
- [55:49]
Camille
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [55:50]
Bill Harper
Like that solopreneur kind of thing or very small team. Like three to five people. There seems to be such a demand for, hey, how can I get my business to work? And I've been thinking about creating something that's a bridge between marketing and business because I can't imagine that you don't have to. You have to talk to, like, you.
- [56:14]
Camille
Don'T understand if your operations aren't set up, if you don't have it, like, it can't help you. Like, you can have the nicest logo and the greatest socials, but, like, it's not the problem.
- [56:22]
Bill Harper
Yeah, yeah. So that's. That's been the interest lately is how can we get them? And I'm, I'm thrilled to hear that this generation has finally decided to invent Story for themselves so that now we can talk about it again. Yeah, but Story used to be. And then Story lost to tactics, and now Story's coming back out again because so many people are using the same tactics. It's like a, you know, a new lane that's open on a toll route. It was great for five minutes, but then it became filled just like every other thing. So now that tactics aren't doing their job anymore, like, okay, now we have to go back up to differentiation, so you can't avoid that. Yeah, there's an early an early to market thing, but the sliver of time that that's advantageous to a business is so small. So I think it's great that this is happening and frankly, I hope that it continues. But I also see that a tremendous amount of people were fired or, you know, downsized or whatever. And those people are all jumping into this gig economy thing where it's like, well, hey, I have a skill that I can do. I'll become a consultant. I'll become this, I'll become a that. And they have zero understanding of how to market themselves. They have every understanding of how to do the skill that they were hired to do for the big entity, but they have none of the surrounding support structure anymore. So I think that there's a tremendous amount of brass tack. This is what you have to have in place in order to function well. And I watch this all the time. I was on the phone the other day with a guy who's working 80 hours a week. He's got a video business. He's serving too many audiences in too many different ways. It's yanking his business all over the place. And I literally just like picked it apart. I was like, you're working in the business, not on the business. You're working 80 hours a week. You're doing this. You're serving too many people. You don't have a productized way to think about your dollar thing. And like his mouth was open. He was like, how do you do that? I'm like, because I've seen you 800 times this week.
- [58:22]
Camille
Yeah.
- [58:22]
Bill Harper
I see it again and again and again. This is not new. You're not different than anybody else. Your business is the same, same messy room that their business is. And I think like traction, you know, eos or E myth or, you know, these other, these fundamentals have just been missed by the groups that specialized in something and then tried to build a business on it. And they can't figure out why it doesn't work. They're like, but I'm good at this. And I'm like, yeah, but what you're not good at is telling people the right way that you're good at it.
- [58:52]
Camille
Yes.
- [58:53]
Bill Harper
And so I, I think you're, you guys. I'm not surprised at all that you have a flood of inbound because I think that there's just so much demand for what you're doing right now.
- [59:03]
Camille
No, it works well, but it also is also a great joy of life because people that, to your point, that are the best of what they do are the worst. Of marketing themselves.
- [59:11]
Bill Harper
Yeah.
- [59:12]
Camille
Like, they just, they, they're so good at. They can't, they can't, they can't do the tow truck story. They're talking about their credentials. They're talking about things that, like, I'm in the rain, I'm soaking wet. I don't give a fuck.
- [59:24]
Bill Harper
Like.
- [59:26]
Camille
Get me out of here, you.
- [59:27]
Bill Harper
Know, like, my car is on the side of the road.
- [59:29]
Camille
Come on. I don't stop talking about it. I've gone. I've got to call the next person. But my last question for you, Bill, I ask only the brightest, only the best.
- [59:38]
Bill Harper
Oh, you tell that to all the boys.
- [59:41]
Camille
Only the best. What is a brand to you?
- [59:46]
Bill Harper
A brand is an expectation of what's to come.
- [59:50]
Camille
You were the most confident answer. I kid you not. I went for a dinner with Rory Sutherland and he was like, I don't even answer that question because it just, he's like, I feel like I can't answer it. Brand of the word brand is too overwhelming. It's like I try to avoid it at all costs. You just did that with so much confidence. One of one.
- [60:08]
Bill Harper
It is.
- [60:09]
Camille
It is one of one.
- [60:10]
Bill Harper
If I, if I go to a James Bond movie, I know what I'm gonna get because I already have an expectation of what the brand will deliver. I know when I go to an Eddie Murphy concert, I'm going to laugh. I know if I see a Meryl Streep movie, she's going to cry. I know these things because these brands are established and they have set an expectation. And if you just simplify it down to say you need to set an expectation. And the only way you can set an expectation is to tell a story consistently. That's it for all the things we do in our business. That's it. So the faster that you know the story, then the more consistently you can tell it, then the faster you establish the expectation, the faster that you're a brand. And if people really like the expectation, they'll pay more for it and they'll come back to it more often. That's it. Ta da. Like, that's the end. Like, there is no simpler way to boil this off that I can, that I can tell. And I'm endlessly jealous that you and Rory Sutherland got together. I, I would love to connect with him. He cracks me up. I, I just. Everything about his presentation and his background and, like, how he does it all the way down to, like, the buttons over his, like, it's just, he is, he's like, all the time, like, he's all time hobbit and it's just like the coolest thing in the world. Like, I just love that guy. And I've never even met him.
- [61:35]
Camille
I just think he's literally the best. I'll make sure that I set up. I'm gonna set up like a branding round table. I'm like, I'm on. It's in my. I'm percolating. And I think that can be, like a lasting legacy. But the last thing that's just so funny about Rory is he is, like, he is the. The king of the vape. So he'll have, like three of them around his. Like, he wears them as, like, lanyards and, like, with his, like, very, like, oxford, like, button look. And he, like, will be like, everything that. It's. It's just like watching him on YouTube, but he just doesn't stop. I'm like, dude, like, how do you. How. How is this. How is this you? And he's, like, hiding it, like, at the restaurant.
- [62:10]
Bill Harper
Like, it's just hysterical.
- [62:11]
Camille
It's too funny. It's too, too funny. Well, I mean, this is. I mean, this is happening again. This is just. This isn't goodbye. This is see you later.
- [62:22]
Bill Harper
No, these. This is video friends for life. No, this is. This is a good thing.
- [62:25]
Camille
And I know. I got another one. Andrea. I got another screen friend. Bill, where can people find you? Give us all of the places where they can find you and they can access you.
- [62:36]
Bill Harper
So the Fastest way is TikTok at BrandBoss HQ. And inside the bio is a link tree to everything, everywhere, for everybody, all the time. Or if you want to go to brandbosshq.com, then you can see the website. But I think. I think the best stories are YouTube, TikTok, and then if you want just straight information, go to the website.
- [62:59]
Camille
That's amazing. Bill, thank you so much for joining. I've loved having you.
- [63:04]
Bill Harper
Thank you very much. This was a great fun. I look forward to the next one. It'd be a good time. This was such a great treat. I really appreciate it and I love the work that you put up. Let me know if there's anything that I can be doing. We'll jump on live. We can do this again whenever you'd like. It's great fun.