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- [00:00]
Alexandra Cooper
So it wasn't an issue with what she was doing. It's what she represented. And women not having a counter kind of conversation that isn't just like a parent of, like, don't listen to it. Opposed to, like, this isn't healthy, because what a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand. Say it again now. What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand. Welcome back to the Art of the Brand podcast. This week, we have a bunch of things to recount, things going on in the world, interesting branding moments from our travels that we're gonna hit on.
- [00:36]
Camille
We'll see how the new format goes. I like that you're hiding some of the topics from me so that we can have instantaneous reactions.
- [00:42]
Alexandra Cooper
It's gonna be kind of funny. Like, I want to see people like this kind of Rory jump all around over a whole bunch of different things. But let's start with Call Her Daddy. Whoo.
- [00:52]
Camille
We're gonna go there right now, so we're gonna start. Well, Camille and I had a bit of an argument as opposed to whether this was relevant, and I was like, no, people will be interested in this topic, because I think. I think there's a lot of podcasters that are potentially making mistakes by kind of selling themselves to products or people, and they work so hard to get a loyal following. And there's some ambiguity as to whether or not the content is paid or the content is authentic in terms of serving their viewers. And when it comes to Call Her Daddy and what happened with Kamala Harris, I thought it would be an interesting thing to talk about that she was actually paid to bring Kamala on the podcast. And does that undermine her credibility with her audience? Because if you're being paid to have them there, there's an obligation not to ask tough questions.
- [01:43]
Alexandra Cooper
Yeah, we took very different perspectives on this. So just to make sure that it's a completely clear from a rehash perspective, Call Her Daddy is the top podcast. She has become famous, kind of infamously. She was really the first kind of female podcast that was, like, quite vulgar about sexuality and becoming kind of that source to talk about sexuality openly for females during a time when women are probably at the peak of being in control of their own sexuality. So it was kind of an interesting how she rose to kind of fame and how what she kind of represents in society. And she was paid. Would you remember how much? $100,000.
- [02:27]
Camille
I don't know. But everybody that Kamala went on was paid Oprah everywhere. And you Know what I mean? As opposed to if you go on Rogan, you don't get paid, or if you went on Theo Von, you don't get paid. Like they were interviewing Trump and not being paid. Right. And so that. I think that's a difference.
- [02:44]
Alexandra Cooper
But I lay out your problem with it, and then I will establish my perspective.
- [02:50]
Camille
First of all, I think people are too hard on Caller Daddy. Obviously, I don't watch it, but Joe Rogan is the top male podcast in the world. He talks about issues that were previously offside. Hunting, fighting, drinking. He smoked pot on it. It was audaciously male and unapologetically male. But he brought on strong people. That. That. And it grew into an interesting audience. Call Her Daddy appears to be the biggest female podcast in the world.
- [03:14]
Alexandra Cooper
Yeah, it is.
- [03:15]
Camille
And it gets kind of shit on, I think, by you and some people, because it's vulgar, as opposed to it just being unapologetically. And I don't know, it may be way more vulgar than I know, but unapologetically honest about sexual issues that females deal with, you know, that are hidden, like. And so she talks about things that everybody know is happening, but nobody wants to talk about for fear of being called some sort of name. And I thought that that kind of brutal honesty with her audience got her a large followership because they trusted her to say what other people wouldn't say.
- [03:47]
Alexandra Cooper
She was controversial.
- [03:48]
Camille
Right. And then. So when Kamala Harris campaign says, we want to connect with young people, if I'm that ambassador, if that's my brand, right. If I take money from that person, it changes the dynamic of whether or not I can ask them hard questions. And I think my audience of maybe younger females wanted to hear somebody ask her very tough questions to see if she was voteworthy.
- [04:10]
Alexandra Cooper
That's a great point, which you didn't bring up yesterday.
- [04:14]
Camille
I think you're just reassessing your position.
- [04:16]
Alexandra Cooper
No, I'm not. I'm not. And that's a. That's an easy thing to default. Like, if I hear a good point, I'm going to say that's. That's a good point.
- [04:23]
Camille
A characteristic of a top performer, ability to change a position based on new evidence.
- [04:26]
Alexandra Cooper
Yeah, but. But you bring up two points that I think I need to address separately, because Call Her Daddy I don't have an issue with. In fact, I follow her on TikTok, and her brand has kind of evolved, or at least the content that I see on TikTok, which I was. I almost kind of used for my own defense to prove myself wrong is like, actually how vulgar her podcast is. But the clips that I see on TikTok are actually quite candid interviews with celebrities of her asking questions you're not used to people being asked point blank. Like, she's very blunt and she kind of goes for the jugular, talking about, like, those really raw, raw, personal things. And on TikTok, I love that because I love hearing about the, you know, the hardship that Mischa Barton went through. And she was, you know, at the height of her fame when I was a teenager. Right. Like, in that way, she's evolved her brand and I like that side of her. And I use call her daddy a lot with clients because I say she's the number one podcast in the world. This is proof positive of why you need to be controversial, because actually saying something is what works today. However, where I've had issue with Color Daddy and where we disagreed yesterday is I think it's also a problem of young females today is that they're iconizing the wrong things about independence and sexuality, and it leads to depression, body dysmorphia, like by. By trying to almost push past what feels natural, or at least natural to me from a sexuality standpoint, it results in a lot of problems from a confidence standpoint. And her representing this podcast of like, for the longest time, just like absolutely getting hammered and like sleeping with several guys in an evening and like not having emotions like that, to me, when I've seen my own friends in my own experience really struggle with confidence with. With self worth issues comes from that kind of dialogue. So it wasn't an issue with what she was doing, it's what she represented. And women not having a counter kind of conversation that isn't just like a parent of, like, don't listen to it. Opposed to, like, this isn't healthy because that was my issue initially with her. But I do think she's a great interviewer for the reasons you bring up.
- [06:41]
Camille
But she wasn't a great interviewer of Kamala.
- [06:43]
Alexandra Cooper
No, and that's a good point. But where we disagreed yesterday is, is it off brand for her to be purchased for someone to come onto the podcast? And my argument was that to me, isn't off brand for her. She comes across very much as someone who is purchasable like the other top podcasts in her category. A lot of the female podcasts in the category take almost every guest as a paid brand sponsorship, where it comes across as native content. And Symbiotica is often purchasing spots on podcasts like Call Her Daddy. Where I don't feel like that consumer is that shocked that they're purchasable is. My point is that I didn't seem off brand. Whereas for Joe Rogan's brand, that's why his brand is better, in my opinion. But also, like, he comes across as someone who's very not purchasable.
- [07:38]
Camille
Well, he has sponsors. Right. And that's, that's where it is a difference.
- [07:42]
Alexandra Cooper
You're right.
- [07:43]
Camille
Yeah. But if she's the biggest podcast in the world, like, she shouldn't have to be purchasable. And I think this is where money is. It seems to be in some more of the female ones a little bit, and I don't know why.
- [07:54]
Alexandra Cooper
Can I just stop you for a second? You bring up a good point. They shouldn't be versus is the reality that they are. And that's where our argument stems from, is that you're correct and that that's what this new age media should represent. Because for the longest time, media was very purchasable and it was very biased based on who the top sponsors were. And that's why we're living in this age, coming out of this last election of how much podcasts should be just raw what the people's opinion are and not influenced by being owned by Bezos or blah, blah.
- [08:29]
Camille
Whoever that woman is on Call Her Daddy, it's such a beautiful moment for her if she wasn't purchased or told what to do.
- [08:35]
Alexandra Cooper
Right.
- [08:35]
Camille
And I think a lot of young people don't want to be told what to do. And that's what her appeal was at the beginning. Call Her Daddy.
- [08:40]
Alexandra Cooper
That's a great point.
- [08:40]
Camille
And then all of a sudden, she's being told what to do by a candidate that's telling people who they have to vote for if they're sexist or racist. What an amazing opportunity to ask her, hey, can you define a woman for me? Hey, what, what. What is the like, ask her about personal sexual things, like, see if the candidate can resonate with the audience. Because otherwise you're just being used as like, here's somebody Fluffy. Vote for them because they're a female. As opposed to saying, look, you're coming on my podcast. This is what my audience wants to hear. Be real with us.
- [09:07]
Alexandra Cooper
But this is where I think that you're so enlightened and intellectual and you're almost too smart for what we're discussing, because the average audience member of Call Her Daddy is someone who is probably, for the most part Democratic, probably for the most Part wanting to hear Kamala and on Kamala's terms was that we need to pre vet the questions, which is very, very common in media, especially for like hyper PR people, for it to be controlled. Let me keep. Let me go. Keep going. And then the next piece of it is her average audience member is like, she got paid. I do the same thing for 100 grand to interview Kamala. They're not thinking from the perspective of where your brain is coming from, of this is the problem with the current supposedly democratic approach in the largest power in the world is that when you're going to something like a podcast, it shouldn't still be on your own terms of back in the day of cnn, MSNBC and Fox News.
- [10:06]
Camille
It's not a podcast in the modern. In where it's going.
- [10:10]
Alexandra Cooper
No, it's not what it should represent because. And that was. What is so interesting with this past election is that what. What came out is that every single major figure was purchased. So it shows you it's not a problem of Alexandra Cooper. It's that the media is purchasable. And that's where I'm like, is it a brand problem or is it a media problem?
- [10:32]
Camille
No. Well, it's a brand problem if you want to come. It's a brand problem if it's Kamala's brand. If you want to come across as authentic. Because if you have to pay Beyonce and Oprah all this money, then it doesn't seem like they're doing it voluntarily or because there are people who do endorsements that they don't get paid for. And on Trump's side, whether you like them or not, politically, he didn't pay for those podcasts. Joe Rogan wouldn't let Trump's team dictate the questions, and he wouldn't let Kamala's team dictate the questions.
- [10:59]
Alexandra Cooper
This is where it becomes tricky. Is, you know, is Alexandra Cooper's brand one of integrity and as having a very crass brand. That's so like, that's where the line becomes gray and a bit sticky. Is like, can you talk about overt aggressive sexuality and be a brand of integrity or. Or can you have both? And like, is it.
- [11:23]
Camille
You can, but it's. It's where your loyalty lies. And in the end, the market will decide. But if your loyalty lies with your followers, you ask what your followers want to hear, right? You don't, you don't prostitute your platform for a political event and, and not stay true to what your followers want to hear. And if she's a crassy thing. And you come up like, if you come on podcast, and this is my platform, I'm going to ask you these types of questions. Like when you go on Charlamagne, the God love them, or like, like that podcast, they ask hard questions of both sides. Right. Like, you understand what you're going into.
- [11:53]
Alexandra Cooper
But here's my concern with your approach. To me, Alexandra Cooper is a female version of like Jake and Logan Paul. I respect what they built, but they're highly purchasable.
- [12:06]
Camille
Yep.
- [12:07]
Alexandra Cooper
And that's where I'm like what you're saying. I agree with you. And it's like you're putting her on the same plane of like Sam Harris and Joe Rogan because you know of her podcast, but you know of her podcast because she's actually more akin to like the Pauls than she is to a Sam Harris.
- [12:25]
Camille
Yeah. And I think fair enough. You can reach people through the Pauls and through Candace. I don't think that the Trump side paid to be on the polls. They were on a couple of their podcasts. I'm not sure 100%, but I don't think they were. But anyhow, audience needs to believe in the influencer. We've talked about this in the beauty.
- [12:41]
Alexandra Cooper
Brands, but I, but before you wrap it up, I think that where this conversation is interesting is on the question of the brand. You know, like, is it like when you're, when you're making, when we're analyzing this discussion and where we had an argument is, is based on what Alexandra Cooper's brand represents to me, is it a bad brand move? You know, like, did she, did she compromise her brand?
- [13:08]
Camille
And it's a horrific brand move. She may survive, but it's a horrific brand move because there were so many good questions, like, all you gotta do is read Kamala's history, her career. There's just so many things you could ask her authentically to talk about authentically. And if she could have, it would have resonated with a lot of young voters. Right.
- [13:26]
Alexandra Cooper
But you just bring up an additional, though interesting point is that based on Alexandra's actual brand, having a woman candidate on that podcast, she should have gotten into the, into the juicy dirty side.
- [13:41]
Camille
Her brand should have been having Trump on the podcast and be free to ask him anything because that guy is audacious and he'll talk in reality. But to bring somebody on who's completely restricted, who's not saying anything, it's so off brand. And it just became a gender signaling event, essentially saying vote for this person, I'm not going to ask any tough questions. You're not going to say anything interesting. It's unlike any podcast I ever had in terms of sleep factor.
- [14:05]
Alexandra Cooper
Yeah. You know, you're not the audience, you.
- [14:07]
Camille
Know, like, no, but her audience wants over the top stuff.
- [14:11]
Alexandra Cooper
You're right.
- [14:12]
Camille
Right. That was as boring as boring.
- [14:13]
Alexandra Cooper
That's why I don't listen to it. Yeah, you bring up a good point. I think that today, since you've been able to sleep on it, your argument is a bit better. And I will be reflective in how you're approaching that conversation because you're right, you know, like what have been the most on brand thing, but from like a hurting your brand perspective. I feel like that's the problem with the modern media is that they're not willing to have a conversation about anything that's not a hundred percent perfect for their side and it actually makes them come across as less human. And that's why I think the Democrats lost, is that they were, they were, they were too hyper focused on an anti solo person narrative that they lost sight of, of policy, of aligning with values. I was thinking about this last night. Like what politics represent was an alignment of values. So forever it's like you could understand that what one side represented versus what the other side represented. But the Democrats lost sight of what are our policy stances, what are our value stances because they're too hyper focused on something that is so niche and not applicable to the mass audiences. And just being polite, just saying that to be inclusive, like what does that mean from a policy standpoint? Like where is that from immigration, from taxation? Like they weren't hyper focused on policy.
- [15:36]
Camille
For our business audience, what's relevant, I think is you can get into an information bubble that corrupts your decision making. And the issue is the vast majority of the media and celebrities in the United States live in New York and California. Right. And in those two very concentrated centers, they are echoing messages that resonated what the Democratic Party elites and the advisors thought. And so. But what they were hearing in their information cycle was all corroborating their belief system. Oh, this is how people feel. This is important, but just from centers of New York and California. But all you got to do is drive into any town in America, in any state, and ask the Uber driver or the person at the convenience store what they think. And everyday people were not sharing those beliefs. And so they weren't. And this is happening in corporate boardrooms where the CEO is insulated by people who are all trained at Ivy schools who don't know how to think anymore and who have adopted a political ideology that's corrupting the business plan and they're making the wrong decisions. And so CEOs got to get out there and hear what people are actually believing, not what they're saying to be socially desirable.
- [16:44]
Alexandra Cooper
Well, that brings up a great point, because so often we see, like, we're kind of brought in at the end of the road, and then it always becomes a budget problem. Because when you're being. When you're being fed the wrong information or you're being fed information, that reflects a personal bias and isn't the best thing for the brand. That's when you start to lose your brand. And it doesn't happen right away as your brand starts to go off course. It's kind of like that analogy of, like, when a plane, it takes off and it takes off, you know, one degree different. You end up in a very different place. And it's very difficult when you're flying to see how off course you are. It's not till you land.