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- [00:00]
Philip
I think it kind of marks the end of festivals as I knew it. It's weird to be around so many people who aren't really interested in talking to each other or enjoying the entertainment. They're just interested in capturing images and
- [00:11]
Camille
self promoting how much social media has affected in real life experiences.
- [00:17]
Philip
You get paid to wear something, it's like, okay, well, why don't I own the brand? It starts off small, creates a community, gets momentum, and then smart corporate dollars figure out how to maximize leverage and dominate it. A lot of creators have become democratized production houses where you have like thousands of these content creators going out and producing content for consumption.
- [00:39]
Camille
You need to find three to five opportunities for you to create content that brings people into your world.
- [00:46]
Philip
The longer it takes to get to the top, the longer you'll stay there. The quicker you get to the top, the shorter you'll stay there.
- [00:52]
Camille
Bieber's performance give me a hot take.
- [00:54]
Philip
He was told to do it. He was paid a lot to do it because it was indirectly showing YouTube off.
- [00:59]
Camille
What a brand, what a brand, what a brand. What a mighty good brand. Welcome back to another week of the art of the brand. We are recovering post Coachella weekend, which is definitely where we're going to start.
- [01:16]
Philip
My first Coachella is a good age to go to Coachella for the first time. I really a little tired from all of the drugs and in concert going.
- [01:24]
Camille
We didn't go to one concert. Only drugs taken were Advil from the headache, from the influencers. And we also had Emma Grade's book launch that I guess you were not at. You dropped me off at. But we're about to have a way more boring of a life when we head back to Canada in a few weeks. So, guys, this is definitely not normal.
- [01:47]
Philip
Yeah, a lot to talk about. Let's get into it.
- [01:49]
Camille
Let's get into it. Okay, well, I wanted to talk first about Coachella. Okay, so let us talk about Coachella.
- [01:57]
Philip
You want to say Coachella again?
- [01:58]
Camille
Coachella. What did you think of Coachella?
- [02:01]
Philip
Well, I was interested in the hype. You know, I think it kind of marks the end of festivals as I knew it. I used to love festivals as a place where you go with people who shared a love for music and they would go and be present for the music. And we were talking about it. I felt that Coachella, it's become a corporate event masquerading as an entertainment. I think we were talking about it. The feel there, it's weird to be around so many people who aren't really interested in talking to each other or enjoying the entertainment. They're just interested in capturing images and self promoting. It was, it was an interesting for me to see how much business has affected the festival industry or how much
- [02:40]
Camille
social media has affected in real life experiences. It's complicated. We didn't go to the concert. But I would say the overall feel of Coachella isn't worth it. I think that it's really been ruined by the commoditization and commercialization of social media. It's very weird when you kind of see it in real life. Everything is designed to be enjoyed through the screen. It's actually more enjoyable to sit at home and to like consume all the content than to be there watching just everybody create the content. And that's what was really interesting to me is that it lacked true enjoyment. Like nobody was having fun. Everyone was just taking photos to make people at home feel like FOMO or like sad or whatever for not being there.
- [03:35]
Philip
And I guess we're talking about some of the activation events we're at that are busy with people who are fine to get in. But it's an interesting dynamic to see a bunch of people not interested in talking to anybody else really, other than just capturing videos of themselves. It's. It's an interesting manifestation of a popularity contest where certain people get invited to go get free stuff to take pictures of themselves to then share to people who couldn't go. Like, it's different than going to the old concerts in the old years where you got a concert T shirt and then you just talked about how amazing the experience was for years.
- [04:08]
Camille
Well, it's funny because we were there with Revolve and there's a hilarious video coming out this week that we hosted the red carpet, but nobody knew we were hosting the red carpet, which is funny, but not entirely not wrong. And we got a credit and we went to the Grove and we like went shopping at the Revolve store, which we talked about on the show. And it's funny that you picked out a Grateful Dead shirt because you had gone to one of the Grateful Dead concerts. So you, when you say, like, you used to love festivals, like you were there during the time of like when they were the greatest, not quite Woodstock,
- [04:44]
Philip
but at the tail end of the
- [04:46]
Camille
Grateful Dead before the Dungeons. Yeah, there's no phones. Like there was still a community. People would still like go to every single concert.
- [04:53]
Philip
Like where the lights you saw shining were lighters and not cell phones. But it was a. There's a life cycle to everything. And so, like, Coachella started as this kind of, kind of. It took a risk, it lost money in the first year it was in the desert. It had a feel, and then it got momentum after it was able to get back going. But then smart people realize that it's a cultural zeitgeist and smart corporations put their money into it. And now it's kind of owned by the corporations that are just really maximizing the screen time for their own profits.
- [05:24]
Camille
But on the other hand, though, it's actually as interesting to analyze through a brand lens. You know, it's easy to judge the Kardashian clan and the. And, you know, Hailey Bieber for owning these, like, Coachella weekends now for their brands. But I saw it through a different lens this past weekend. I actually saw female business empowerment. These women who had social cachet during a time when social media was taking off, when there was always socialites, there was always people that had perceived power or like, hierarchy within society. But with social media, it amplified it at a rate that like a Carolyn Bessette Kennedy, like, it wasn't quite the same. You know, like, it was. She was in papers not owning her own channel. And what I realized is that what the Kourtney Kardashian and the. And the Kylie Jenner and the Kendall Jenner and the Hailey Bieber, what they figured out is they were sick of people making money off them being at like a Coachella weekend. And instead they took all that they knew and learned and put that into their own brands.
- [06:30]
Philip
I don't think Hailey Bieber was sick of that. I think, you know, how can you
- [06:34]
Camille
say they weren't sick of that?
- [06:35]
Philip
They could be making money off of Hailey Bieber at. At events.
- [06:39]
Camille
Hailey Bieber came up the same time as Kendall and Kylie Jenner. That's why they're like a three pack. That's why at 818 outpost, they did the road lip gloss, they had the tequila. Like, they had all the brands collabing because those girls all came up at same time.
- [06:52]
Philip
But what do you mean they were tired of people making money off of concerts?
- [06:56]
Camille
No, no, no. Like, when they would go to these events, like, brands would pay for them to, like, wear their clothing and like, to go to their parties. And, like, that's what made Coachella so iconic and famous. Is that because it happened in the Coachella Valley, like an hour and a half, two hours from la, it was like where all the celebrities went. So online, everyone saw one isolated. It's like the Oscars, but it's not the Oscars. It's something that you can buy your own ticket into. So it's what made Coachella so culturally captiv. That it was one site where you literally saw all of these famous people enjoying their time, and that's where they ended up selling so much product through, like, all these beauty brands and clothing brands were tapping these women to buy.
- [07:39]
Philip
I'm not judging them negative. As business person, I. I like it. Like, you would go there. You get paid to wear something. It's like, okay, well, why don't I own the brand?
- [07:46]
Camille
Yeah.
- [07:47]
Philip
And sell it. Right. Like, it's supposed to be a music festival. The music is actually almost secondary to kind of the celebrity brands that are doing their thing, if you know what I mean? Like, and it's. They took advantage of the life, of the life cycle of cultural zeitgeist. It starts off small, creates a community, gets momentum, and then smart corporate dollars figure out how to maximize leverage and dominate it. And then they do that, and then the entertainment value starts to. To drop down until another cultural zeitgeist pops up.
- [08:17]
Camille
So if I. I think what you're saying is limiting, though, that there's two conversations that we can be having, and both can be true. Yes, Gap activated. Yes. Poppy activates. Yes. These bigger brands that are conglomerates are spending money there, but only because these women, like the Kendall Jenners, the Kylie Jenner's, the Hailey Biebers, made Coachella so powerful from an earned media value standpoint. And revolve. Revolve did that too. Made it so powerful from an earned media value standpoint that two things are happening. These conglomeratized brands are coming into here because there's so many eyeballs. And the girls. Girls that created all these eyeballs also created brands so that the two things that now exist at Coachella that are making the most noise are the brands that have the most money and those girls that now started their own brands.
- [09:05]
Philip
So what are you disagreeing with me on?
- [09:06]
Camille
I'm saying, like, when you're saying it's like to say what the girls. That. What the girls are doing is it's more about these big companies and these big brands, whereas those.
- [09:16]
Philip
They took power because they. They're celebrity. They were wearing other people's clothes, and they said, okay, well, why don't I just make my own clothes as a celebrity and then promote it? It was a very smart move. Right? And it's. And it's done well. And then they've. Because their personal celebrity was so powerful, it ended up transforming what Coachella is, I'm saying that Coachella is on the down cycle.
- [09:35]
Camille
I'm not saying the same thing of
- [09:36]
Philip
the cultural zeitgeist because once it gets so dominated by corporate dollars vying for attention, people will eventually move to somewhere that feels a little bit more authentic. So if I was advising our clients right now, I would probably say I wouldn't be investing in that. I'd be finding a different type of a festival to invest in.
- [09:55]
Camille
I agree with you that Coachella is on the decline and that's worth us discussing separately as like the next subtopic to this. But what I do think is relevant for what's the best of Coachella because we're going to talk about Bieber, we're going to talk about the performances is the level in which these celebrity backed or influencer led brands are activating. And I think it's because or and I've now realized that they spend so much time being used as their like paid people to show up at these events that they generated so many data points that when they went into launching their own brand they already did those reps, they had those hours. And that's something that I haven't given credit to those women before until I've been really seeing like these Coachella level activations and how well Rode and 818 outpost and Camp Poosh, like how well they did in activating. And it's relevant because we want to minimize that they're kind of owning it opposed to realizing why it makes sense for them to own it. Is my point of what I think is interesting about this past weekend.
- [10:59]
Philip
It's interesting you have to leverage what you can leverage so it makes sense the big boys and girls in the space can now dominate. But if you're an up and coming brand, I don't know if it's the best use of your dollars to go to the biggest events. I think there's a lot of smaller events that you can get more attention to from an audience that I just think a lot of people are just spectating and they're just watching a lot of stuff and I don't know if you're getting a good return on your, on your dollars revolve obviously is because they, they crush that event. But for, for other brands that are trying to break into it, like I would look for, for more authentic cultural zeitgeist moments.
- [11:33]
Camille
But I think to, to take out what you just said that like if we're to work backwards from that statement, the cost to activate at Coachella is Very expensive. So it's not, you know, whether or not you should, like most brands can't. Can't afford what that cost. If you're in the realm of paying for activations, should you be at a weekend like Coachell? I think it's a better way to talk because when we speak like that, we're not speaking through the lens of the three levels of a brand. Right. There's a brand, a good brand, and a great brand. We went to the for all activation. I think it made them look like they're hitting above their weight, like they're a bigger brand because they did something at a moment that's designed to connect with that IT girl. And if you don't know 4 all golf is a super cool golf brand. They're doing stuff that's really different. They're leaning into that kind of comedic female side of women leaning into golf and like, not knowing all the rules and not.
- [12:27]
Philip
Amazing founder story.
- [12:29]
Camille
It's amazing. Shout out to Megan. The fights on this podcast are gonna be brought to you by for all because she listens to the show and she loves the fights. More fights. But if you have budget to activate at a level of Coachella, should you do it? Not if you can't afford it. Should you spend every dollar to be at Coachella? Absolutely not.
- [12:47]
Philip
I don't think it's if you have budget, but I think people generally do what they see other people doing and they go too far, they go along too long, and they don't know when to cut out of it. What I found is interesting is how brands bring on other brands because, like, at the Revolve event, it brought on tons of cool.
- [13:05]
Camille
Tons. Yeah. Ring pop.
- [13:07]
Philip
A giant brand.
- [13:08]
Camille
Pop it Pop Sockets.
- [13:10]
Philip
Hot girl pickles.
- [13:11]
Camille
Hot girl pickles.
- [13:13]
Philip
That Quay.
- [13:14]
Camille
Quay sunglasses. No, they're not new. Otra's new. Otra is the woman who's on the show. Otra, the original founder of Keys, actually come on out of the brand. Her guest episodes coming soon.
- [13:23]
Philip
Cool. I think it's interesting that you get like a major brand that then brings in smaller brands. So it's almost like this cool kids club that you're trying to get into.
- [13:31]
Camille
I would say the biggest theme this year at Coachella was these, like, cross brand collaborations. And it's worth breaking down why brands do it and does it make sense? Because you're right. On one hand, it's world building. Right. When you go to Kendall Jenner's 818 outpost, what's smart that Camp Poosh did and what 818 did is they basically brought in a ton of brand partners so that when you entered into their world, there was like different stops. Right. There was different brands within it. And on one hand it creates a more memorable experience. You're probably more likely to stay longer. Right. Because there's more things to do. But then two, it also really allows your brand to offset the cost, which is. I want to speak to the brand implications of what you're talking about. Talking about of like does it add or does it subtract? But a big reason why a lot of brands are bringing in other brands is it's a huge undertaking to do these activations at Coachella. Like it can be a million dollars, it can be half a million dollars, it can be. There's just, there's a huge range of what it can cost. And that's a lot of money for a brand to take on based on an earned media value. Being your KPI of like how many eyeballs did you get? Cause it's not, it's not tying to sales. Now before you jump in, it's worth me explaining that. So the reason why that brands that once they reach that good or great brand status, they spend to stay top of mind because you need to keep generating impressions. So there's, there's this kind of sunk cost of needing to stay loud, needing to stay present. Because when you're constantly top of mind, you're more likely to solve a problem that the customer faces. So for 818, when you're going out, when you're going drinking and you're sending someone to go to the liquor store to pick it out, you're more likely to ask for 818 tequila because you've seen so much on 818 this past weekend. Now it's impossible to directly tie. It's just basically based on earned media value impact based on how much noise, how much more likely is that to bring new people into the funnel?
- [15:36]
Philip
We're seeing advertising money move from commercials, which was the biggest spend, tv, print and radio, into activations.
- [15:44]
Camille
Yeah.
- [15:44]
Philip
Because the kind of independent content creators are sharing the brands. Like in a decentralized way. It's like, it's an interesting model of where it's gone. I think a lot of creators have become democratized production houses where you have like thousands of these content creators going out and producing content for consumption. So it's not just coming under a big studio or one agency designing one commercial that hits like you're getting all. So it's a very Dynamic time.
- [16:11]
Camille
Well, especially when you look at how Rode did their activation. So bunch of things to consider. Number one, they brought in Symbiotica as a partner. So Symbiotica paid a company a a fee to be a part of the activation and to contribute. Interesting, because Symbiotica, if you haven't listened to the episode, highly recommend that you listen to the COO Duran Elmy. She was on the show but they saw like those vitamin packs that like are the sippy packs. Half of you are going to be like Camille, why are you explaining this? The other half of you are going to be like can you explain why their vitamin C packs way longer? Cuz I have no idea what some Symbiotica is. Wherever you fall in that do your research according. But the point is, is that there's no overlap to road. But what's smart is it taps into that shared values conversation where marketing is no longer about those target market Personas, but those shared values in that someone that's buying ROAD is probably into health and wellness. They're probably a Pilates princess. They're probably someone that's into biohacking and longevity and maybe peptides depending on how young you are. But that's the trajectory of where you're going. So the idea is that you're building a larger brand world when you walk in and other brands you love are also there.
- [17:25]
Philip
What pops to my mind is you're almost kind of creating brand tribes or brand colors. Like if you're in like these alignments, you have kind of like small, medium and large brands kind of picking tents.
- [17:38]
Camille
Yeah.
- [17:38]
Philip
And so like you're in the revolve tent. You're one of the cool kids in that tent. But you might have another tent over here that has a different brand collection. Some like a mini armies of brands that are fighting for attention by collectively amassing their reach together. Do you know what I'm saying?
- [17:53]
Camille
Well, totally, because that's why it's so intelligent is like if Symbiotica has I'm making this up 20 million followers and road has I'm making this up 42 million followers. And you're bringing in these other brands that have these other big follower accounts to them you're now amplifying because you're collabing like you're, you're able to more people. But the thing that's relevant is because it's so interesting how I felt like I needed to qualify the age thing. But the woman, the woman who's going to Coachella is drinking age. Right. So you probably are more into the peptides and the health and wellness because the kids buying road is a byproduct of the pop, you know, like the cool girls, the popular girls showing it, using it, wearing it. Because young girls still look up to that. So at the Rhode event at Coachella, it makes sense to do that cross collab with those. Not that Symbiotica is a mature brand, but it's definitely more mature than when you cringe and think of a potential 12 year old wearing the eye patches and you're like, Camille just said peptides in the same sentence as, you know, road eye patches. But when you think of the real consumer, and that's what I thought was fascinating is the lines of literally that girl. Like, I don't know, like the roads. Like, I don't know who works harder than the road team. Like we were walking in up to the event and we got lucky and we got to go through a different line, shout out to having a podcast and we walked like, how long was that walk? Like half a kilometer, 500 meters?
- [19:27]
Philip
They work in miles in the States.
- [19:28]
Camille
How is half a minute walk, 15 minute walk? Lined, lined of. I don't even know how they did it. The hottest girls of every, like color, size, shape, you name it, they were the hottest of the hot. It was a masterclass in why road wins is because it's it girl branding. And it was so fascinating that they also partnered with more of those it like those it girl other brands to make the space maximize, like to amplify that brand world.
- [19:58]
Philip
This cool kid angle, it's interesting, but I see founders who are building a product in a community that's working, but then they get obsessed with being around other celebrities, you know, and so you'll, you can spend money to be around these people, but like your brand. I still think you need to stay true to your audience in a way. And what I could tell people wanted to, like, they're just all vying to get the more elite pass somewhere and they're willing to spend a million dollars to be around those people. And I don't know if it's the best use. Every dollar is like an employee that can work for your company.
- [20:34]
Camille
You're saying Symbiotica shouldn't have spent the money to be with Rode?
- [20:37]
Philip
No, no, I can understand the collab. I'm just saying generally I can see people. You get caught up in being in this IT crowd rather than focus on is your product actually spectacular.
- [20:48]
Camille
But I think there's an alternative argument, though. To that of Symbiotica is several hundred million dollar company is what they're trying like. Yeah, they're. They're several hundred million dollar company.
- [20:59]
Philip
I'm talking to our listeners who run businesses, some of our clients who have medium to growing sized businesses.
- [21:04]
Camille
But the strategy is relevant to. To the brand. So if you're. If, if we talk about Symbiotica with Rhode. Yeah, like a Lavoie, the amazing low toxic activewear brand. I've actually posted her twice on my stories. Amazing loungewear makes zero sense for her to pay to be at that level.
- [21:21]
Philip
So you want to be cool enough that they invite you in, but what ends up happening is you can pay to get in there. And once people are paying to be a cool kid, they're not really that cool.
- [21:30]
Camille
That's not the case though. Road is not inviting random like.
- [21:34]
Philip
No. But is ROAD inviting cool brands it loves or is ROAD charging people to be at their parties?
- [21:40]
Camille
Road is inviting cool brands they love and then they're requesting a fee to offset the cost of their event. But it has to be a brand that they love. They had extremely strict standards. They were like tough to work with with through the lens of like maintaining brand standard. But Haley personally selected Symbiotica because she loves the brand, she buys the brand. And I believe her and Justin are investors in the brand. I believe that that's a brand that they invested in because they loved. It's kind of a weird brand to invest in unless you genuinely enjoyed the product and the product is good.
- [22:10]
Philip
Invest in things you make money in. But sure, yeah, they believed in the product. It's amazing product.
- [22:14]
Camille
I think it's worth analyzing when you're at that level. What makes sense at that level for smaller brands? The takeaway for it is you need to understand world building. So if we're to segue into what smaller brands can learn is really what Coachella has become. And what I've realized with being in Hollywood and seeing these brand activations on a weekly basis is they understand world building through the lens of creating three to seven photo opportunities. So all these events are. They're super underwhelming when you go to them in real life because all they're designed to do is get you your three to seven story frames. Right. So when I went to the road event, I got a photo of the balloon wall. I didn't get a photo of the claw machine. Cause I've seen like 17 of those this month. But then they had taco trucks and they had burger trucks and they had special drinks and they had a special bar and they had a special mirror and they had a touch up space. So they're creating all of these isolated stops that become social content that allows you to build the digital world. And that's what really what your takeaway is. If you're a small business owner, you need to find three to five opportunities for you to create content that brings people into your world. And then when you do something with your customer, three to five opportunities that they can share your world so they can bring other people in. So Hot Girl Pickles, we met the friends at the Revolve Fest and I've been meaning to talk about them on the show. One of the reasons why they've blown up and it's why these like Gen Z brands are doing so well is they think so simply about how to break down their brand into bite sized content. So one of my favorite videos and if you go check out their TikTok page is her talking about the illustrations on the jar and like why they did these illustrations and why they chose these colors and why they chose that branding, it's why they have such a massive fan base is because they are literally building in public and creating these micro conversations on every aspect of their business to bring people in in a way that they're not guessing. And it's so basic. But when you think about you talk to most founders like for all I'm going to compare the two. So hot girl pickles, if you go on their TikTok you can see through like tons of videos. The reason why they started it, how they met, why they did their brand, why the illustrations look the way they look. The reason why this started is that Jen, who was a buyer and a stylist, she was left out of a massive business decision because her business partners went golfing without her. And they didn't ask her because they, they, they thought that she couldn't golf. And through that she was empowered to create a golf line that was like cool for the woman getting into it because when she got into it she hated all the fashion, all the clothing. You can't find 10 videos of Jen talking about why she built it, why they have these taglines, why they're doing what they're doing, like breaking down that storytelling. And that's why I was trying to compare the both is that Hot Girl Pickles understands that world building component in the simplicity and content whereas for all is spending so much money to activate they're doing a great job. But there's that at that you know, I was trying to explain between, like, the startup brands and the more established brands. That was what I was trying to differentiate on.
- [25:33]
Philip
Are the pickles any good?
- [25:36]
Camille
They're delicious.
- [25:37]
Philip
Well, like, yeah, but, like, I think we're going to have a life. Like, there's just so much talk about stuff that you can talk about. But there's business fundamentals that I think our listeners. The cycle of business ascending the scale and dropping has shortened. Like, it used to take a lot longer to get there, and then you would stay there longer. I think you're going to see. And this is what equity, private equity and investors and founders have to think of. There can be a much faster Runway to ascend to the top. But if you don't have the fundamentals down and you start spending like you're a celebrity and you're not focused on what your client is, you'll also see a very fast. And there's a business law and just a law of nature that the longer it takes to get to the top, the longer you'll stay there. The quicker you get to the top, the shorter you'll stay there. And so it's interesting from a brand perspective, can you build a great brand in six months if you, you know, catapult to the top and you're hanging around those people, Is it a great brand or is it a temporary brand? When do you know if it's a great brand? Does it have to live five years or is it just a trendy brand?
- [26:42]
Camille
Well, in an effort of conversation, I don't know if I agree with you anymore. And that's why I brought up the hot girl pickles example. Their pickles are good, but there's a lot of good pickles at the grocery store that I've never felt compelled to try that might have a great product. And hot girl pickles, they sold out after two months of creating content on TikTok and they've like maintained a steady sellout rate.
- [27:06]
Philip
So my question is, are they a great brand or they.
- [27:10]
Camille
They're a good brand that's building, they're new. But I disagree that the fast to build or the fast to fall anymore, it's that what they understand is they started with low resource world building, right? Like, it didn't cost a lot of money for them to like show up and create this content to market. And I'm utilizing, I'm picking on for all is the alternative example to give them more impressions so that you search on their website because they've got really great clothing, not that for all is a problem. But that when you compare that to a brand that's spending a lot of money to be at the Masters, to be at, to all these events that can actually bankrupt you faster. And they're still doing it on a. On a steady trajectory opposed to doing the building in public TikTok organic content that's still getting hot girl pickles at almost all the exact same events that for all was at, like, they had a booth at the Revolve. The Revolve Festival. So it's like, it's a totally different trajectory and they're getting to the same point at a much faster rate.
- [28:08]
Philip
Well, the question is, how long do they last? But just so everybody knows, these podcasts are not brought to you by any brand.
- [28:14]
Camille
Never. Yeah.
- [28:15]
Philip
Brands that we like and brands that we care about and ones that we want to. But the point is to the. To the brands that. That have ascended fast. What I'm trying to say, kind of, as you're unofficial coaches, don't just buy into the hype, like use the hype, but understand the business fundamentals will still work. And don't stay on trains too long because everybody else is there spending money. Like, it's a long road to build a great brand and to have viability. But I think too many people are thinking quick exits. I can put a cool name on something, throw it under a decent product. Right. And get an exit. And I don't know if that's going to last forever.
- [28:49]
Camille
Yeah, but I. You say that and you're not wrong. But I. But what's missing from that when you sit into this? The consulting combos, which I actually do think it's worth it for us to explain a bit more because Megan listens to us every week and it wasn't clear to her. So our Monday to Friday, we run an agency and we have a good breadth of clients from all walks of life. We've got a big team all over the world. We've got our clients all over the world. We do everything from strategy to socials to brand building, paid ads. We're a full suite, you know, scaling, coaching. That's what we do Monday to Friday. We do this for fun because we love connecting with people and giving you guys insights and contributing to the industry that we're in. The reason I say that is because what you just said is true wisdom. Like, nothing great is built in a day. But also when I listen to you in these strategic meetings, you are looking for those guerrilla upsides that do get eyeballs. So I Think it's minimizing. Talking about leveraging social media and generating mass eyeballs as a way to build in a space that's never been more saturated. I think it's easy for us to take down.
- [30:05]
Philip
Like, I'm not taking down anybody. I'm just giving just a little caution to the whole hype of, oh my God, it's so cool. Oh my God, this person's here. Like, yes. Hot girl Pickles. Great name. That's a name we would have come up with because it works, it catches. It's got a story. You want to leverage it. But I'm just saying in this, just in. What I'm seeing is people are getting a little loose with their cash, thinking that the events, it's about all the events and they often forget about their customer. Because I really didn't see anything about a customer, like on the weekend. Like, really, I just saw people glamorizing each other and then making content. Like, there wasn't really a lot about the customer from my purpose.
- [30:42]
Camille
But I also. To play devil's advocate though, is it. Is that also where you care about the customer when the first weekend of Coachella is predominantly influencers or celebrities? Right? Is that also a space in place
- [30:54]
Philip
where, like, I thought it care about the products. Like, they're there to take pictures with products, but they don't actually care about the products. Like, they're not evangelists in many ways. Maybe they become evangelists. Maybe the goal is to convince the influence. But I, I just didn't even see many conversations between the brands and the influencers. It was like, let's show up, take a picture so I can post it and then just go. You know what I mean?
- [31:16]
Camille
Like, I agree with you. But also when you look at, like if you look at everything you do through a funnel, like through a marketing funnel, this past weekend was top of funnel awareness, right? Like, it's mass virality. It's. It's not where it's deep. It's. That's why I actually where I was critical on the Sephora is that the people who are at Sephora are like mid range, bottom of the funnel. Like, those are true, like, people that are like obsessed with beauty. For them to like, because they sold out so quickly and they're more like engaging with their brands. Whereas I thought it was quite cool that 818 created those sleeve holders that had a lip gloss in it and a little tequila and your mix drink. Because, like, that was a very viral idea. Like, it's just. It is Just that in another way, too.
- [32:04]
Philip
Yeah, sure.
- [32:05]
Camille
Let's move on. I did want to ask you, though, one question, though, here. So in the end, I guess your hot take is you don't think Coachella is worth it for brands.
- [32:14]
Philip
I think if you have a market dominance position, you can keep your market dominance longer by investing your money into it. But I don't know how long it's going to last. But I just wouldn't want to be paying my entire budget if I'm a
- [32:27]
Camille
small brand who's putting their whole marketing budget on Kotella.
- [32:30]
Philip
I don't know if you know, but I think if you're invited to go and be part of an activation and they give you a big price set. So essentially, these big brands are having their event funded by the smaller brands who want to be big brands.
- [32:42]
Camille
No.
- [32:42]
Philip
And they can dictate.
- [32:43]
Camille
No.
- [32:43]
Philip
You guys have to pay 25 grand to be here. You have to pay 50 grand to do your activation here.
- [32:48]
Camille
It's like comparably big brands, like, they're the same level of brands. That's what makes it interesting. They're not like roping in these, like, these like poor small brands to, like,
- [32:59]
Philip
spend their whole budget, but these are brands that are growing, that have some success. They're cool. The big brands want to bring the cool kids in. And then the way business works is the big power players have more power. So they tell the small, the medium, aspiring cool brands to pay to be involved with them. And then they end up. They end up subsidizing the big brand's activation. And it can take a huge amount of money out of their marketing to be part of it, whereas their dollars could have been spent somewhere else potentially better.
- [33:29]
Camille
I don't. I don't know what receipts you have of this. This Symbiotica just did a massive, like a massive activation at Alt for Ulta. They spent a ton of money on that event. Rode was super impressed that they did this crazy, massive event and they're fans of the brand and they're like, so they reached out, it made sense, and Symbiotica made it happen.
- [33:49]
Philip
Just to be a devil's advocate, I might say, looks like they're spending money quite freely. What a great opportunity to get them to pay for half of our event. Like. Like, we don't know what's really going on in the conversation, but I agree
- [34:01]
Camille
with you on that point. But Symbiotica is also a brand showing that it's spending on experiences and activations. Like, they didn't strong Arm them to be like, this is a no. But when you look at the Poosh, Camp POOSH or the 818 outpost, it was compare. It was like Postmates, which is like the American Instacart. It was like big brands that were like showing. It was. That's the whole point is that Coachella has kind of become this like super bowl of cool, like It Girl, CPG brands.
- [34:34]
Philip
Yeah. I'm just, you know, it girl is the thing. I have in my experience working with hundreds or more thousands of businesses, the decisions you make on where to spend your limited money are important. So you really want, you really want to make sure you're making the right decisions. In many cases it makes great sense to be at that event and get that bump. In other cases it doesn't. You just have to be careful about chasing what everybody is doing to be the it girl. Because the it girl doesn't generally last. She's usually not that cool after she leaves high school. You know what I mean? Like, so it's kind of a temporary thing. You want to be that solid business that is like long term quality.
- [35:12]
Camille
But that's why the biggest trend, which is not new this year but is was reinforced this year is that what these brands are doing are they're not blowing their entire budget. They're bringing other brands in. Because to do it at a level that continues to impress and engages people who are used to going to things that cost a lot of money is to bring other people in. So like Camp Poosh had like, I'm making this up. Eleven other brands there. Same with Revolve Festival. There was tons of other brands in the space that were activating. Same thing with the 818 outpost. And then we saw it on a smaller scale with road. I get what you're saying and it's. But it's not to necessarily be that. It's that if you can own a place like 818-Kendall Jenner's brand makes a hundred percent.
- [35:59]
Philip
What I want to get across is bubbles come and go. You can't drop a fortune on pickles, a fortune on 16 fragrances, a fortune on 25. More like people. There's just not that much money. Like at some point it's going to be a bubble.
- [36:14]
Camille
Yeah.
- [36:14]
Philip
And we keep talking about rich people, brands that are already rich doing stuff. I'm interested in our clients who are building brands. They got their mortgage on the line. They're worried about payroll. They got a great product and sure, it's okay. I'm GLAD Kris Jenner's got 818amazing, incredibly funded beforehand, surrounded by tons of business people that gives them opportunity and everybody goes and takes pictures of them. But like I'm just saying to the listeners who are there watching it, don't just fall for the it girl thing. Like your business fundamentals matter, your audience matters, invest in them. And that's a better way, I think, to get there one day.
- [36:50]
Camille
Yeah, of course. But like, I feel like it'd be a pretty boring podcast if every week we just analyzed successful low lift TikTok strategies like it. We, we need to look at what's happening at the biggest level because success leaves clues like you don't have to be rich to bring together, to bring together another local brand to cross collab. And it also, I think for the businesses here, doing a lot of these events can be a huge strain on cash flow. So if you bring together six to seven other businesses and do something on your, your main street, in your small town, you're take. You're learning from what's being done at the highest level. That's my job here, is I'm giving you the high level shit so you can break down from there. Okay, let's move on to Bieber. Chella, we're talking about Bieber.
- [37:36]
Philip
This is what Camille does when she loses an argument.
- [37:38]
Camille
Oh, my God, kill me now. We're keeping all the arguments in now, guys, for your listening pleasure. Just like, let's just like create an emoji for people.
- [37:48]
Philip
No, we're gonna start doing this.
- [37:50]
Camille
Start DMing me emojis. If you do this live, let's do. And people can green flag when we're on Team Camille. Red flag when we're on Team Phillip. Put them in the live. Send them to me on dms. You don't know me that well yet. I mean, I think we know each other pretty well from the show, but I haven't. You haven't seen this side of me. I actually really like being wrong. So if you're like, I'm Team Phillip this week. You got a lot of experience, send me a dm. I do have a lot of experience of being wrong.
- [38:13]
Philip
That's the critical aspect of being successful, is you can have strong opinions, but you won't be successful if you're not willing to change them based on new evidence. And that's what's wrong with all of society, isn't that everybody's got strong opinions, but they won't change it with new evidence because they're too tied to their opinions. So this Is a world lawyer business moment. Have strong opinions, but change it it if evidence suggests you should.
- [38:38]
Camille
And I also want to say, too, for the people that listen, it's also hard with how much info there is. And that if we say something that isn't a hundred percent right or could be tweaked or you have your feedback. Like, we are dying to hear from you guys because our goal is to, like, continue the dialogue, keep the conversation moving. So let's move into Bieber. So was Bieber's performance good or bad? Are we here for it? Are we not here for it it? What are your thoughts? Let's go, Philip. Give me a hot take.
- [39:06]
Philip
You know, I just think it extends when I'm saying, let me give you. By way of comparison, all right. I think Sabrina Carpenter gave a performance.
- [39:14]
Camille
She did. She crossed out.
- [39:15]
Philip
She's newer, but she gave a performance. She was authentic. I even liked her little exchange where she told somebody to shut up who was interrupting her.
- [39:21]
Camille
She said that was weird. She didn't say shut up.
- [39:23]
Philip
Well, that was a version of it. But whereas the Biebs, you know, is close to my hometown, like, I run into some of his family for a while, I just feel like the guy is broken on the inside. Like, I don't get the sense that he gives a shit about his audience.
- [39:38]
Camille
I don't think that's fair.
- [39:39]
Philip
Right. Pulling up a YouTube and playing it. I actually think Beef's performance was driven by corporate leadership at YouTube that sponsored Coachella, wanted to sell his stuff. And so they told him during his performance to pull up YouTube and play videos because YouTube was live streaming. Coachella, like, this is the business behind these. These events. It's not that he just wanted to do it. He was told to do it. He was paid a lot to do it because it was. It was indirectly showing YouTube off. Like, we were talking to the. The roadie guys here. Like, the way people used to love the music to go and hear a live performance. Today, like, now we're listening to him play a YouTube video where he kind of sings and he's like, mumbling and like, I just think C minus, C minus. Fuck it. Get. Get a grip on yourself, Biebs. Find yourself again. Be honest and come and make some passionate music. But I don' can do it because I think he's medicated. He's troubled because of what's happened to him in the past. He's not been honest about it. And you can't connect with me with new music unless you're going to Be real.
- [40:39]
Camille
Okay.
- [40:40]
Philip
What did you think of Bieber's performance?
- [40:43]
Camille
It's complicated because the narrative online is very much dissatisfied with the performance level. I did go to his last concert tour and. And I felt the same way. Like, I felt like it was. He was being forced to be there. There wasn't an enjoyment. I've gone to so many of his concerts that that version of him that I grew up with is no longer there. And I saw that through the lens, like, seeing him on screen again, like, him holding his head, like, clearly how hard it is for him to perform. And the people that were there, we're sympathetic because I think that's kind of the unspoken thing is, like, everyone knows that something happened and people are sympathetic to that because it's also a huge ask to ask someone to heal through probably some pretty crazy trauma publicly with people that he doesn't know. Like, that's kind of a weird thing.
- [41:43]
Philip
And I. I'm not saying reveal it on the stage, but I think becoming clean about what happened with P. Diddy could help protect other young artists who get abused.
- [41:52]
Camille
I just think that's. That's easy to say.
- [41:54]
Philip
Well, there's nothing worth doing. It's easy.
- [41:58]
Camille
But I think the question is more from a brand standpoint, because I thought was weird when I saw the YouTube streaming. It just seemed odd to me that you're playing Baby in the background and he's like, singing on top of it of, like, if it's like glorified karaoke. But then the larger question is that. That people are kind of mad about online is, like, how much he got paid for how much lack of performance was there. And I think the question from a brand lens, because I wanted to be tied to brand, is do you think when you hit, when you maintain, when you stand at that level, is your brand maintained or do you have to continue to perform to maintain, like a. Like, do you know what I'm saying? Like, how does that impact the Justin Bieber brand, do you think?
- [42:42]
Philip
I don't know. Like, Kodak survived a long time when digital media was coming, right? Like, if you're a big brand, you can live for a while, even when things are changing, but there's nothing knew coming from him. And I just. I don't think people need to see more angst, you know? And, like, they've already got it. So going to another festival where you're a vip, who cares? Like, if I was Justin, if I was like, to give you advice, I'd be like, I'd go on A walkabout. I would leave North America. I would go busk in remote places around the world. Start singing again like you used to sing on the steps in Stratford, Ontario. Connect with your audience again. Do some ayahuasca. Cleanse that crap out of you, you incredibly talented individual. As a performer, you're not that right now. And you're not going to be going to more events where people are just worshiping you. You have to find the humanity that inspired your music and you have to get away from the lights and go do something interesting and come back to us a new guy.
- [43:35]
Camille
And when I analyze the language online, it's very much like two camps. It was the worst performance ever. Or it was a raw, honest return from an artist who's been dealing with, like, serious health issues. It was no, like, middle ground. It was two sides. But what's interesting to me is we're in such an age of, like, authenticity. Like, is it authentic for him to show up and perform in the state that he did? Because that was really the response of the crowd that it was like, authentic for where he's at, for how he performed.
- [44:07]
Philip
Sure. I just think there's some people who don't want to criticize Bieber because they've invested so much to go there that they're going to filter it through. This was amazing. Otherwise they're going to be depressed for the next six months.
- [44:18]
Camille
Well, the other Philip Hot take that he didn't share on this is he also thinks nobody listens to his new music. And I was like, eh, you know, I don't, I really didn't like Daisies and Uconn and all the other ones that people are adding to music, like to their swipe through posts. But I do think that there's a lot of people that are into that Daniel Caesar esque, you know, like, slow, sexy party music. So it, I just think it's.
- [44:44]
Philip
Look, I'm into slow sexy party music. I just don't find that it's. That's it.
- [44:48]
Camille
Have you listened to Daisies or Uconn? No, no, he hasn't. So we'll have to circle back on that one. You. I feel like you rush past your Sabrina Carpenter point.
- [44:59]
Philip
Well, it's controversial, but like you have an artist about to do something and then some women yell a cultural sound from the audience and she doesn't recognize it and says, stop that. Or what is that? And then she gets attacked for saying, that's weird. Like you're in the middle of a performance. She's an artist. Like, you don't have to.
- [45:17]
Camille
They were disrupting the performance.
- [45:18]
Philip
Yeah. Like, you don't have to.
- [45:19]
Camille
They were intentionally disrupting the performance. Like, but they.
- [45:22]
Philip
I've been to that region of the world. It is a celebratory sound, right, that, you know. But she called it yodeling. But it sounds yodeling to somebody who's never heard it before. Like, you don't need to jump on and bust on her. Like, I think. I think if Sabrina Carpenter put in the performance that Justin had, she'd be ripped for not caring. But she's in there doing a great performance and then, you know, has an issue with somebody interrupting it, and then they attack her and then they're giving Biebs a pass. So.
- [45:48]
Camille
But I just.
- [45:48]
Philip
I'm on the female camp here.
- [45:49]
Camille
On the female camp. Okay. All right, well, let's move on to some headlines. Let's kick off with Rory and whoop.
- [45:56]
Philip
I know you want the numbers on here, but you guys can correct me from a celebrity brand perspective or celebrity investor perspective. The Masters was this weekend. We've been talking about Coachella, but, you know, we love golf. Rory won the Masters. One of only a few people joining Nick Faldo, Jack Nicklaus, and one other person of having won two back to back Masters. One of the hardest things probably in sports to do is to win two Masters. You don't understand. It's a game of just yourself against others. It's incredibly hard. But the day after he releases the info on the whoop wristband he's wearing and he's an investor in the whoop wristband. But it's a brilliant brand story because he went into that final round of the Masters with one of the biggest leads ever and almost blew it. But you could track his heart rate as he's almost blowing it. So on the 18th hole, he hits one right into the woods, and they don't know where it is. And you can see his heart rate goes up to 137aminute. Now, he's a highly tuned athlete with a resting heart rate probably around 65, 60. And then as he's walking, he's doing breathing, and, you know, the story comes out after he gets it down, he finds the ball and then he hits it out of there into the sand. But he can still win if he gets up and down out of the sand and his heart rate's at 127 in the sand. But then when he does that final putt to win, he takes a second, regulates his breathing, and his Heart rate comes down to around under 110 and he sinks it and wins the Masters. It's just for me as an athlete or somebody who loves that stuff, it's a great story that takes a product and applies it to a real life situation.
- [47:27]
Camille
It's where these fit tech brands have been doing so well is that they instantly understand one storytelling and two, problem matching. Oura Ring also did that so well with the this woman that and they've had a bunch of stories like this. The Oura Ring predicted cancer before the doctors did based on all of her health numbers. Problem matching is so powerful and it's what most brands miss because you're so focused on being so self important which isn't to be dismissive. But we all live our lives through our own lenses. You need to flip the script and think about that consumer what's going to drive them to buy. Like think of all of the gulf golfers to release the data to show when you're in a high stakes. Because most men that golf, they bet, they bet on holes. Right. To be able to track and to pull up in real time once they're done that last hole to see where their heart rate went to is very addictive for that personality type that's into playing sports.
- [48:27]
Philip
Yeah. Like it's a beautiful example of the client being the hero. And it's a beautiful example of and you can do it in all of your businesses. Find the example of your product doing its best for the hero. Yeah, right. And so second time attempt to win the Masters having blown a huge lead only one stroke away, looking at his heart rate as he controls it to win it. That's the best example you could have in many cases of that product doing its job. So in your business, think about stories of your product. Product at its best. Helping the hero, which is your client love.
- [49:07]
Camille
Okay, let's move on to the next headline. Anna Wintour on the COVID of Vogue for Devil Wears Prada too. So in case you missed it, the May issue of Vogue is going to feature Anna Wintour and Meryl Streep. Meryl Streep pays a plays a version or plays Anna Wintour in the Devil Wears Prada. It's actually, it's a it. One of Anna Wintour disgruntled executive assistants left and wrote the book and it became a movie. And this is the first time ever that an editor in chief although Anna Wintour is now has stepped down from being editor in chief. But there's never been a cover with any past or present editor in chief on Vogue. This is the first time. And what's interesting is that the first movie, the Devil Wears Prada, Vogue was in a different position, right? Vogue was. Had cachet. It was, you know, more within that idea of where Vogue was. But now Vogue's in a different place. Anna Wintour has bought in a successor. Chloe Mal. She ignored the first movie. She, you know, she had her power position where that movie's there. Whatever. We're Vogue. We don't give you attention. But this time around, Anna Wintour has been pumping out the press for Devil Wears Prada too. I want to break it down. Is this the end of the brand or is this a powerful move for Vogue to lean into the zeitgeist? Because last stat that helps you form an opinion. The devil wears Prada 2 trailer teaser trailer was the most viewed comedy trailer in. In 15 years with 181.5 million views in 24 hours. So for context, the movie is already making headlines. What do you think?
- [51:02]
Philip
Well, the number on trailers, like I don't know how many years trailers have been online necessarily. So every year there's going to be more of.
- [51:10]
Camille
That's a great point. I was not, I was not ready for that point.
- [51:14]
Philip
What's missing, why we keep them. What's missing is just if I can segue on trailers, our good friend John Wiseman, John Sheinberg, you should probably say his name right?
- [51:24]
Camille
If you're gonna say he's our good
- [51:25]
Philip
friend, our good friend John Sheinberg, he was talking about it. People used to go to theaters to watch trailers. And it was an exciting thing to see what's coming. Cause you didn't have access to everything. Now that you can pre buy your seat, people come in right at the beginning of the movie and they don't watch trailers anymore. So now your trailers are online. The fact that people watched a trailer, I think it's interesting. To answer your question, I personally would be cautious about tying my brand to a sequel. Sequels usually suck. Sequels are usually the corporation trying to milk as much money out of a good brand. The fact that it was a true story before about what she really did made that story amazing. Made it real, made it something that attracts listeners. It had authenticity. That was amazing. Making a sequel by a couple of Hollywood writers designed to make money to put branding on it. It shows that animator is. Is on the decline. I'm sorry. You used to be cool. You're not freaking cool anymore. You're just selling your image to try and make some royalties off of the off of the sequel. I bet you the movies probably sucks. Sequels usually do because it's not authentic.
- [52:29]
Camille
I really don't think it's the right move for Vogue. But until Vogue can change in a way that it helps the brand they had, they have limited options to hold onto. The problem is that Vogue is trying to be too many things to too many people, and it's not pleasing anybody. So the problem is that when you're trying to be likable and you're trying to check the DEI boxes, but you're also known as being this powerful, not friendly, not likable person in an industry that's. That's not welcoming, bad person. But, like, for all those things, you can't become relatable. You know, like. And that's the issue is that what made the Devil Wears Prada so powerful is that it hedged on the brand that Vogue built. Right? It's like, here is that vulnerable, relatable, other side to the Vogue empire you don't see. So for Vogue to kind of come down off its pedestal and use a cover to pose, it's intelligent for a business that's dying because it allows a ton of people to go and buy that. That cover and to get back into the Vogue world while this movie is having a moment. But it's not the right thing that Vogue should be doing sans movie. Do you get what I'm like? A little Spanish, French. French.
- [53:53]
Philip
I think you're right. It's the last gasp of a brand to make some money before it actually, I think, perishes because they're just. They're selling this image. Like, to me, people forget the name of the book was the Devil.
- [54:09]
Camille
Where's Prana?
- [54:11]
Philip
She was a devil to people around her. And we live in this culture that's always telling people, oh, don't bully. Oh, do this. Oh, do that. And now Hollywood is actually celebrating somebody who's absolutely horrific to other human beings for no reason. Like, it's.
- [54:24]
Camille
But they're not really celebrating her. They're more celebrating Anne Hathaway's character. No, they're selling. It's like the devil. Whereas Prada is an anchor point to this, like, underdog hero story.
- [54:35]
Philip
I think it's nice that the devil will license himself for profits. It's not really surprising, actually.
- [54:41]
Camille
But the. That was a great point. What I would like to say in wrapping up for this is it's cheap strategy. It's easy strategy. I think seldom are iconic people likable. I think that's actually what there's actually somewhat wrong with society. And it's probably also worth talking about as well, of maybe not on today's episode, but next week week's episode of how difficult it is to kill it and to own an area and how you actually have to be not likable because it's not about friendships at that point.
- [55:12]
Philip
Don't get me wrong about that. If you're a business owner, don't spend time trying to have mediocre people like you. They're never going to like you if you ask them to raise their standards. The devil wears prada wasn't somebody trying to inspire people to be top performers. It was just.
- [55:25]
Camille
But I don't even want to talk about the movie. I'm saying in terms of votes, like, for Anna Wintour in vogue, like, Anna Wintour deserves to have a legacy of a magazine that doesn't crash and burn because they weren't prepared to hear what someone wasn't prepared to say to them. And it's that she should actually double down in not trying to please the zeitgeist. And that's what vogue has lost is that the problem with fashion is that there's an element to fashion that attracts fringe, like personalities. And it's complicated because two things can exist at one time. It's discerning, it's mean, it's unlikable, it's not welcoming. But then you also have these fringe personalities that try to come in that want to be welcomed.
- [56:07]
Philip
It doesn't. Yeah. It doesn't let you in. But this just reminds me what you're saying about that documentary on America, supermodel or whatever that was.
- [56:15]
Camille
Oh, America's got top. Top model.
- [56:16]
Philip
Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, everybody's complaining that it was. They were mean to. Well, it's a tough business. Like, business is warfare, so you can't go into business singing it. You know, people.
- [56:25]
Camille
Well, it's even your point of, like, they should have more EAs of, like, how bad it was. How bad the selection criteria was. Like, vogue should swing the pendulum back to being the greatest fashion editorial magazine where they say, like, controversial, cutting edge stuff. Like, that's the ripping.
- [56:45]
Philip
People complaining like, we're in the business.
- [56:47]
Camille
Yes. Like, to be on the COVID with Meryl streep. Why? Because, like, to your point, the devil wears production. No. Be the devil that wears Prada.
- [56:55]
Philip
Yeah.
- [56:55]
Camille
Yeah. Okay. That's my point.
- [56:56]
Philip
That's. That's a good, good hook.
- [56:58]
Camille
All right, cool. Got their hook. Next, let's move into. So fear of God eliminated The CEO role by firing Bastion Dagozan, who lasted less than two years. So Jerry Lorenzo, the founder of Fear of God, a brand that does over 250 million per year, they have essential essentials, that is its diffusion line now sold through Paxson. Fear of God is its luxury creative arm. So it's what signals to kind of the streetwear and modern fashion community that the brand has taste, but Essential is kind of more of its like namesake brand that's making the majority of the revenue. Basically the argument for this conversation is that can founder led brands scale with a CEO?
- [57:45]
Philip
What are your thoughts as a founder? You have to be careful what you wish for because you work your butt off and then at some point you want to hand it off and just enjoy life. I'm sure there's some good CEOs out there, but if you're a founder, CEOs are generally traveling wilburies who want to go to a different corporation to extract as much compensation that they can out of it in exchange for executing policies that please shareholders. And, and if you're a founder led brand and you're overwhelmed, I would recommend buying the absolute best chief operating officer because you can't have two leaders when it comes to a brand. And if you're a founder, you've got a vision. And the egos behind CEOs are incredibly powerful. They'll tell you what you want to get heard, but they are borderline sociopaths just to get there. You can't become a CEO. It's a very ambitious climb to the top where you screw people over. You're not really good to humans, so you've got a founder that's got a vision. And then you hire a CEO who has a vision that's egocentric. So I don't think it works. And I've told a lot of founders, get the best coo, get the best who I see in the world who can take care of the details, who loves executing. So you can share your vision of your brand with your audience in a way that's satisfying. So it's no surprise to me that they got rid of of it. But this, the founder needs help. Because to have the vision means you have to sit back, look at what's going on, communicating with people. You can't be going through spreadsheets 24 hours a day.
- [59:13]
Camille
Yeah, well, what's interesting is so the row doesn't have a CEO like Mary Kate and Ashley are that kind of top level leadership. Yeah, yeah. Which is interesting. Jack me brought in a CEO which Bastien was a contractor for. But Simon Port is still very much the brand and is very much in trouble in the day to day. It's interesting, but I, and I want to talk about a sub point to that. You know what, one of our client, one of our brands brought on a CEO and I was sitting there meeting her the other day and she was brilliant and you know, but she cared about the brand. But she said some things where I'm like, that's not the brand. And it's often uncomfortable to say because where people put their worldview is around identity politics. And it's really uncomfortable to have deep conversations about brand things. When that shit bleeds in, it taps
- [60:10]
Philip
into that celebrity worship because now CEOs have become celebrities. Like I love the Home Depot model where they promote their CEOs from within. So their current CEO came from the floor. Those people understand the brand. They've lived, died and sweated the brand. But bringing in a celebrity CEO, you know, at the compensation model's generally not the right idea.
- [60:29]
Camille
The issue with the CEO conversation that I'm talking about is that they care and they see the world through their life. But the problem is that they're not the founder of the brand.
- [60:37]
Philip
They actually care. Some of them may say they care, but they don't care about the brand more than their career progression. They know in two or three years they're going to be going to another job. They're going to get an options. They're going to. Right, they're transactional.
- [60:49]
Camille
No, they're. The only way they get to the next job is if this past job is successful. You do not get another CEO ship unless they're these huge brands.
- [60:57]
Philip
We get that. But the brand doesn't die completely under their watch. But the seeds of the death are sowed there because they focus on cost of the cutting. They focus on providing financials that get shareholders to be happy. And then they get taken and they go to another brand where they destroy the brand. They start it by cutting costs and then they move on. And then years later they're not held accountable for what happened.
- [61:22]
Camille
Yeah, I mean, you're not wrong on that front.
- [61:23]
Philip
They don't care about the brand. They care about what they can take from the brand.
- [61:26]
Camille
They care about the brand through the lens in which they can care. It's not their brand. They, they're not the founder. So that's the argument that I'm making is, is that when they're sitting down and they're this conversation that I'm having It was genuine, it was real. And it was through her eyes and her lens, because her point made sense if you knew who she was, but it's not her brand. And that's where I'm sitting there and I'm listening and I'm like, the damn. I'm not. I don't know if I'm a hundred percent in line with where this is going, because based on what I know of the brand and how young it is, you better be staying true to who the founder is, not your own ideologies that are. That are, well, that are well founded. Right. Like, that's a big piece to you. What else should we talk about? Do you want to talk about the emigrate event this week?
- [62:09]
Philip
Yeah, I didn't, you know, obviously I wasn't invited into that closed circle of powerful women. But I love what you said to me when you came out in that. She took you aside and genuinely said, finally, a girl who has something to say. And I think that was empowering and should be celebrated because we need people to be. To feel like they can say things that people might disagree with.
- [62:30]
Camille
Yeah, totally. I mean, it's. It made me feel like the hard work was worth it. Before I talked to her, when I walked into the room, it was really some of the biggest names in the space. Like, it was a stacked guest list. I didn't feel like I belonged because they were really big names and they're people that I followed for a long time. But it first showed me the power of creating content because it's so isolating and lonely when you're creating content wherever you are, whatever city you're in. And to think that it's never going to get to anyone or that it's, you know, that those things happen for other people. So that was pretty crazy to be there. And then people started coming over to me and stopping me and talking to me and telling me, like, how much they loved the content, which was crazy. But then Emma, when she came over, because I was with Rebecca Minkoff, who you probably know, she had some bags that were pretty iconic. She's a lovely human being. And Rebecca was kind of like my safe person so that I could walk through the room without being alone, Emma came over. Cause Emma and Rebecca are friends. And Emma kept saying to me how happy she was that I was there and how excited she was that I was there. And I'm like, man, this woman is really nice. But I wasn't getting any vibe, like she knew my name or, like, knew who I was. So I Was like, really taking the nice compliment. Cause she made me feel really welcome and comfortable. And then finally, when we go to get our photo together, she pulled me aside and she said, I'm obsessed with your content. I save it. I send it to all my team. And she goes, every time I see it, I go, damn. Finally a girl with something to say. Which was so empowering to hear from someone that you respect so much. Because it's easier now to be bold and to be me and to show up and to say the things. Because I've realized that for the most part, it is well received. But it actually makes me, to your point, like, you've pushed me for so long to even, like, hit harder, be bolder, say things that are, like, more my point of view and my perspective. And it reinforced it that people are actually looking for someone that's got something to say.
- [64:34]
Philip
I think it's a good point to end the podcast on is I want to take kind of the opposite position of all of these kind of, you're good enough, you know, the Robins, whatever, you're great enough. You're this, you're not good enough. If you want to be something or someone, you know, if I can say anything to you is be comfortable burying the old version of yourself. Because as long as everybody's saying, oh, you're good enough, you're fine. Everybody's good enough. You're not going to get to where you need to go. You know, you need to become comfortable seeing old versions of yourself put to rest as you become a new person. And that requires struggle, pain, and hard choices. You can't straddle the old version of you and the new version of you. You kind of can't half do content or half commit to your brain. You have to look at where you were and say, okay, okay, I'm not that person anymore. You know, rest in peace there. I'm going to become this new person. And that's what I've seen happen with you, is like you actually invented yourself through hard work into somebody that is really well respected amongst people who are. Who are quite influential.
- [65:35]
Camille
Well, and it's. To be real, it's also hard to kill that other version of you. Right. Like, I always thrived on being likable and having a lot of friends and. And having a lot of people that liked me and that I, you know, I would be there and I'd be available and I'd be the person that they can rely on. But to be the best in anything that you do, you have to let people down. And it's hard when people don't realize that it's not personal, although it feels personal that you're not as there for them anymore. And that's it. The reason why I wanted to talk about the emigrate event is I don't really want it to be about me. You know, I got whatever I needed out of that event, and I don't need to share it for the sake of it. But for those who are listening every week, who are genuinely trying to level up, this shit takes time. And the longer that you try to stay comfortable, you're not going to have those moments. What happened in that moment when I was looking at someone that I deeply respected and that she might not agree with everything that we have said, but she was thankful that there's at least someone with finally something to say, opposed to, like. And that's the problem is that so much of the Internet is just, let's pretend that we liked this show or this episode. Cause it's the right thing to do to signal you're part of the group. Like, let's have critical dialogue. Like, think critically. Stop worrying about what the professional and one town overview thinks about. I'm making something up. Prp, like, say, like, make your own stride. And it's fucking hard. And that's what people don't say enough is like, it's effing hard. And I've had to, like, let go of friendships and make sacrifices and have to show up and say things that I don't think that I would have ever said to a lot of people before, but now I do. And that's why I'm able to get those things that keep me moving. Because when I left there, I'm like, shit, we're going to say more. We're going to fight more. We're going to hit harder. I'm being funny, but my point is, is that I left there being like, now I'm ready to level up. Now I'm ready to be more of that person that I've brought to life.
- [67:42]
Philip
Psychologically, it's very tough when you're balancing a whole bunch of things. Family, work, you want to do content. But, you know, I think it was Cortez when he came over to the Americas with a small band and he burned the ships, right? And what that sent to everybody around him is that we're not going back back. Like, we burn the ships, we're going this direction. You kind of have to burn the ships of your past self in order to become the new self. So you have no option. You just are that person and just embrace it and go there and love life and let the haters hate because you'll make better friends.
- [68:15]
Camille
Well, you know why? And it's worth saying out loud. Our shared mentor taught me this, that we're really good at buying things, but we're really bad at selling things. And the reason why we're. It's so easy to take on new friends but so hard to let them go is because of those shared memories. I remember reading something actually, funny enough on divorce that one of the hardest reasons for people to divorce after a long relationship is like the death of those memories. Because when you've lived a life with that person, those memories are shared among you. And when you don't have that person to relive them, to revive them, they start to die. Right? And that's the thing that's hard about letting go of female friendships is that you have this whole box or not female friendships, any friendships, but female friendships. I find that they're harder on you when you grow past than I find through seeing male friendships. And there's all of these memories that are shared and saved between that bond that you've created that is very hard to let go. Because as you keep moving forward and you keep finding these new relationships, you're starting kind of from zero again. Like you're recreating these things. And what I've realized is that a lot of the friendships that I had to let go of, I didn't really actually have anything in common with them anymore. Like when I would sit down, we're only, we're talking about that same group of shared connections that we had. And because I didn't really have anything in relation, it just, it never felt like a good use of time. Which is like a hard, a hard real thing to say because you want it to be better than it is is. But now the people that I connect most with are people who are founders struggling with their business where the best thing I can give you for my friendship is like value for those challenges. Like I'm not the best friend for like, you know, my 30 year old girlfriends that got three young kids and aren't working. Like, I'm not your, I'm. I can still be a friend, but I'm not the best friend for those relationships. And, but I do respect people too that have maintained close relationships for a long time. But I do think that there's probably a handful list listening that they might have needed to hear that it's Hard to grow. And it's really hard to put yourself online when people want to keep you in a box.
- [70:32]
Philip
And that's why branding is leadership.
- [70:34]
Camille
Yeah.
- [70:34]
Philip
Like, you have to be a leader to build a brand because you got to walk alone. And being a leader is lonely sometimes, but it's worth it.
- [70:41]
Camille
But it makes me laugh when they're like, you know, it's lonely at the top if you don't, you know, think about the people that helped you get you there. It's like, sure, but it's also lonely at the top if the people. I mean, it's not lonely at the top. It's just lonely at the top without the people that don't understand what's needed to get there. You know, Like, I think, like, the top just changes who's around you. And I think that that's a part of the language, though, that I want to change is it's not lonely at the top in that there's no one there. It's that it's lonely at the top for people who won't make sacrifice and who won't be disciplined because that's not who you stay around you when you get there, there.
- [71:19]
Philip
It's not about the pursuit of happiness. It's happiness in the pursuit. And what will happen is your friends will tell you to be realistic, to just do that because they want to keep you where they are. And then you're like, it's the notions concept, right? Well, who do you think you are to go there? Just be realistic. Just enjoy where you are and stay with us and settle. But, you know, you're inspiring people, you know, to not be realistic, to reach, to do amazing things and enjoy the pursuit.
- [71:45]
Camille
I'm also reading right now the Eckhart Tolle A New Earth. And it's such a useful book of your struggling with anything like what we're talking about because it reinforces this idea of many people get upset or mad at you because if when they invested something in you, they only did it so that you could do it for them. And that's also not a true investment because it's only based on you doing more for when it's their turn. And the reason why I love that book is it just completely remakes you look at the ego, the I, the relationship with others, what they're asking for you, your relationship with things. And that so much of what ruins our days or our months or our years are things that don't actually impact your state. You're allowing it to impact your state and being able to work through? What are the words they're using and where? How do they see the world? And is it so egoic? Is it so egocentric because you'll never wake up win in that kind of an issue? Because it's tied so deeply to their ego that it's not actually about the statement of facts, it's about how their personal ego feels attacked.
- [73:03]
Philip
Amazing book. Highly recommended when deep there Here is to happiness in the pursuit of great
- [73:09]
Camille
things and to developing more women with something to say. Till next week.