Evolving Creatively: How Dan Rodo Mastered the Art of Reinvention

Summary

Podcast Summary: Evolving Creatively: How Dan Rodo Mastered the Art of Reinvention

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Art of the Brand
• Host: Phillip Millar
• Guest: Dan Rodo
• Episode: Evolving Creatively: How Dan Rodo Mastered the Art of Reinvention
• Release Date: December 2, 2024

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of "The Art of the Brand," host Phillip Millar engages in an insightful conversation with Dan Rodo, a seasoned content creator renowned for his ability to pivot and reinvent his personal brand effectively. Spanning over 12 years, Dan's journey from a lifestyle content creator to a niche photographer offers valuable lessons for business owners and aspiring marketers alike. The discussion delves into strategies for maintaining authenticity, navigating social media algorithms, and the importance of continual reinvention in the dynamic digital landscape.

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Dan Rodo's Journey: From Humble Beginnings to Established Creator

Dan Rodo begins by sharing his extensive background in content creation, highlighting his early days creating music videos and hosting talent shows in high school. With the advent of YouTube, he transitioned his MySpace-style content to the platform, laying the foundation for his enduring brand, Danocracy.

Dan Rodo [01:26]: "So I'm Dan Roto. I am a content creator. Actually. Yesterday was my 12 years of this current brand, the Democracy."

This long-term commitment underscores his adaptability and dedication, traits essential for longevity in the ever-evolving world of digital content.

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Rebranding: Transitioning from Danocracy to Shot and Forgot

After a successful 12-year stint with Danocracy, Dan discusses the impetus behind his rebranding to Shot and Forgot. This strategic pivot was motivated by both external factors, such as algorithm changes on platforms like TikTok and YouTube, and internal factors, including personal fulfillment and the desire to avoid burnout.

Dan Rodo [05:37]: "It was a financial decision for one aspect of things. But at the same time, I was at a point in my career where I just, I wasn't as fulfilled by doing these outside the box art ideas as I was the year prior."

Danocracy was characterized by a diverse range of content, including challenges, science experiments, and travel vlogs. In contrast, Shot and Forgot focuses on vintage photography and emotionally driven projects that aim to reunite families with historic photos.

Dan Rodo [07:00]: "Shot and Forgot is niching down into a different genre altogether. It's photography. It's vintage history. It is emotionally driven with trying to find families and reunite them with these photos that I buy at auction."

This shift allowed Dan to create more consistent, series-based content, reducing the exhaustion associated with producing a multitude of disparate videos weekly.

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Navigating Social Media Platforms: Tailoring Content for Each Channel

Dan delves into the distinct nature of various social media platforms and his tailored approach to each:

• TikTok: Emphasizes short, engaging hooks with a high focus on discoverability and virality.

  Dan Rodo [13:53]: "TikTok is purely about a five-second hook initially, and then you have to keep going with it."

• YouTube: Serves as a community hub where viewers form deeper connections with creators.

  Dan Rodo [13:53]: "YouTube is more community-based. It's where people are going to get to know you and follow you."

• Instagram: Functions as a blend of community and discoverability through features like Reels.

  Dan Rodo [13:53]: "Instagram is sort of like a club-based community thing with less discoverability unless you utilize Reels effectively."

Dan highlights the necessity of customizing content for each platform to maximize engagement and growth, rather than attempting to recycle horizontal videos vertically, which often results in subpar viewer experiences.

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Authenticity and Managing Audience Expectations

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on maintaining authenticity amidst algorithm changes and the pressures of content creation. Dan emphasizes that authentic engagement with the audience fosters trust and loyalty, which are crucial for sustained success.

Dan Rodo [29:04]: "There's no way around the cringe at all. It's, I think, where people get caught up is they don't have a voice. They don't know what they're showing up for."

He also discusses the emotional toll of negative comments and the importance of separating personal identity from the creator persona. Through therapy and self-reflection, Dan has learned to embrace his on-camera "uniform," allowing him to present a consistent and relatable brand while managing personal hardships privately.

Dan Rodo [34:24]: "When you take too much time off of social media, you'll be forgotten. But how do I show up? ... I can separate Dan Roto from Danocracy."

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Monetization and Authentic Brand Deals

Dan underscores the importance of choosing brand partnerships that align with his values and brand identity. By maintaining a family-friendly persona, he has secured over 200 brand deals, providing financial stability without compromising his authenticity.

Dan Rodo [31:36]: "I remained family-friendly... I've been able to work with almost like tons, almost over 200 big-time brands."

He advises other creators to prioritize authentic collaborations over lucrative but misaligned brand deals, emphasizing that such partnerships are vital for long-term brand integrity and financial sustainability.

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Personal Story: Meeting Tony Hawk and Unexpected Opportunities

One of the most inspiring segments features Dan recounting his serendipitous encounter with skateboarding legend Tony Hawk. While working on his Shot and Forgot series, Dan engaged with a vintage photo posted by Tony Hawk, leading to a series of collaborative episodes that amassed over 20 million views.

Dan Rodo [73:59]: "This year of my entire life, I want entrepreneurs to know, like, your life can be so wild. In the span of one year, I did a series with my idol, Tony Hawk."

This experience not only elevated his brand but also opened doors to further collaborations, illustrating the profound impact of authenticity and persistence in content creation.

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Advice for Content Creators and Brands

Dan offers actionable advice for both content creators and business owners aiming to enhance their digital presence:

1. Prioritize Originality: Strive to create unique content rather than recycling existing ideas.
2. Provide Value: Focus on delivering value to your audience rather than solely aiming for virality.
3. Understand Platform Nuances: Tailor your content strategy to the specific strengths and user behaviors of each platform.
4. Embrace Consistency: Regularly producing content builds trust and a loyal community.
5. Invest in Yourself: Allocate resources towards skills and tools that enhance your content quality rather than relying solely on paid advertising.

Dan Rodo [62:24]: "If you're a small business owner, like a baker, you can film kneading dough or making funny cookies. It's easy content to do."

Moreover, Dan criticizes the overreliance on traditional ad platforms like Google AdWords for small businesses, advocating instead for creative, organic content strategies that foster genuine engagement and compounding growth.

Dan Rodo [65:09]: "I would say, take that money, buy a camera or buy a tripod, buy like an Amazon set and like, but create outside the box content."

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Conclusion: Investing in Yourself and Trusting the Process

Dan Rodo's journey exemplifies the power of continuous reinvention, authenticity, and strategic content creation in building a resilient and influential brand. His collaboration with Tony Hawk and rapid growth of Shot and Forgot underscore the rewards of investing in oneself and staying adaptable in the face of changing digital landscapes.

Dan Rodo [84:15]: "There's no cheat code. The secret sauce is like doing it. Doing the work."

His message resonates deeply with business owners and creators alike: success is a marathon, not a sprint. By committing to consistent effort, embracing authenticity, and leveraging the unique strengths of each platform, anyone can master the art of reinvention and build a lasting brand.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Dan Rodo [03:13]: "Maybe we'll touch on this later, but I think one of the biggest misconceptions creators have is once you've made it, you've made it."
• Dan Rodo [11:06]: "It breaks my heart when I hear creators take it personally because I've been there."
• Dan Rodo [15:31]: "You can recycle content vertically, which is why I'm now mainly in the vertical space."
• Dan Rodo [29:05]: "There's no way around the cringe at all."
• Dan Rodo [43:48]: "I think over the years, I've learned that you don't mark one thing as the plateau mark or where you're going to stop. You mark it as a pit stop."
• Dan Rodo [56:35]: "I think a lot of people, the issue is they want to share an opinion, but there's no education behind it."
• Dan Rodo [73:59]: "Your life can be so wild. In the span of one year, I did a series with my idol, Tony Hawk."

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Final Thoughts

Dan Rodo's expertise and candid insights provide a roadmap for navigating the complexities of personal branding and content creation. His emphasis on authenticity, strategic platform use, and continuous reinvention serves as invaluable guidance for anyone looking to thrive in the competitive digital space.

Transcript

[A]

There's no way around the cringe at all. It's, it's. I think where people get caught up is they don't have a voice. They don't know what they're showing up for they know what they want they don't know how to get there. What a brand, what a brand, what.

[B]

A brand, what a mighty good brand say it again now. What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand. So, Dan, welcome to the art of the brand.

[A]

Thanks for having me.

[B]

I'm thrilled to have you. You represent a different box. You're, to me, the YouTube box, although you're killing it. Also TikTok. And you don't post that often anymore.

[A]

Well, I do on my other account. So I've got danocracy, which is my art account, and then I've got shot and forgot, which is now relatively sort of like my main account on TikTok.

[B]

I know, I've got so many questions. Yeah, Dan, introduce yourself. What do you do? Who are you?

[A]

So I'm Dan Roto. I am a content creator. Actually. Yesterday was my 12 years of this current brand, the Democracy. I don't know, you know what's funny? I don't. I'm sort of a mixed bag, you know, For a long time I was like a lifestyle content creator and then I switched over to be an artist full time for about four years and now I'm fully on like photography, vintage photography, you know, private investigating. Like it's, it's been a whirlwind, but sort of just a content creator at heart and an artist.

[B]

So you started 12 years ago?

[A]

12 years ago for this, this one. I mean, I've been doing YouTube or content creation before YouTube was even around. Like back in high school I was creating music videos, I was hosting my school's talent show. Then YouTube came out and I took my videos that I was already doing for like these MySpace type accounts, uploaded it onto YouTube and had an account for about three years. And then I started the denocracy and this has been going for 12 years.

[B]

And that to me makes me feel way better because YouTube is such a beast to crack.

[A]

Mmm. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, I was gonna say more so now than ever. It's, it's consistently changing algorithm. YouTube is so. I have such a love hate relationship with the platform because it is the most essentially stable one out of all of them, but it's also the most turbulent when it comes to algorithms. You could be crushing it for like two years and then the Algorithm changes, and you're not going to understand any of it, and you're going to have to figure out a whole new way to rework your brand to get back into this new algorithm. You know, like, that, to me, is what YouTube sort of is.

[B]

No, I, like, on a cellular level, like, my body just went. Because I. It's so hard to. To get, to get to hear somebody say that at the level that you're at, that it's. You're like, you constantly have to work at it. Like, you never get the. You never get the free ride. Is that like a fair assessment?

[A]

100%. And honestly, maybe we'll touch on this later, but I think one of the biggest misconceptions creators have is once you've made it, you've made it. And I don't think really any aspect of life, you can achieve such a status because there's consistent work behind it. YouTube, like, I've pivoted probably, like major pivots three times in my career. I'm not the same creator. I'm not doing the same videos that I did even two years ago. I just recently went through a completely new rebrand. So there. I don't think there's ever this, like, place you'll get where it's just coasting.

[B]

No. And that's like. I'm so glad you brought that up because that was me. One of my core questions, like, to me, in my mind, Dan O'Cracy, like, that brand was very clear. And you've now obviously moved into a really different, Like, a different side. Like, one. What. What causes you to feel the pressure or the, the need to change? Is it the algorithm or was it even your own personal, creative, Like, I'm sick of doing this.

[A]

It's. Yeah, great question. It's a bit of both. Like, you will get at some point a push from the algorithm to say, you know, this isn't popping off anymore. And you'll see that in creators, they'll hit gold with a concept and they'll ride it out. And then eventually you'll notice the views drop, the consistency isn't there, the engagement drops. Because it's sort of. We've seen this, like, what now? Right. At the same time, you're a human that grows as you age. Right, Right. So in order to stay consistent creating content and avoid burnout, you got to be genuinely passionate and interested every single day that you show up on camera. So the reason why I recently had a new Pivot was, well, 1. TikTok doesn't pay Canadian creators and I recently moved down to the United States. And so I decided, what's the point? And this is, this is kind of crazy too. What's the point in running Danocracy with 1.8 million followers on TikTok when I make $0 on these views? I was like making a ton in brand deals. But it's so like soul sucking when I show up every day to do videos that are generating nothing to allow me to do even better videos. So I pivoted naturally to another series called Shot and Forgot, which is what I do now. It was a financial decision. Yeah, yeah, sorry, keep going.

[B]

So it was a financial decision?

[A]

Yeah, I was obviously, it was a financial decision for one aspect of things. But at the same time, I was at a point in my career where I just, I wasn't, you know, as fulfilled by doing these outside the box art ideas as I was the year prior. So I thought, what's a good way, you know, to age my brand? Because I'm now I'm 32, like, I have to start to look at how am I gonna change my community as I age? Because I can't be 32, you know, telling silly jokes that I would at 21. It's just gonna eventually change. It'll become tacky, I guess, you know. And so when I modified into vintage photography, that's an ageless brand. Everybody loves the art of photography, memories, history. It's something that's ageless. So those were the decisions recently.

[B]

Oh my God, I got so many questions. Like, I just like. So the move from Deonocracy to Shot and Forget, that's your new, the new.

[A]

Concept, Shot and Forgot.

[B]

Shot and Forgot, that's way better brand. So explain the two different brands for people who don't know you so that I can. We can kind of dig into some more questions on this, this personal brand change.

[A]

Sure, yeah. So Danocracy was a really sort of magazine style channel. I would do something different multiple times a week. I would do challenges, I would do science experiments, I would do travel vlogs. It was just a dumping ground of creativity. And then once I started to age out and pivot, I started Shot and forgot. And so Shot and Forgot is niching down into a different genre altogether. It's photography. It's vintage history. It is emotionally driven with trying to find families and reunite them with these photos that I buy at auction. So it's a whole different beast. But I wanted to go more series based rather than just a mix salad of random concepts. Every Single week coming at you, it gets exhausting. And I just, I feel like my passion was really into this photography and history.

[B]

What was the moment you decided you needed to make a change?

[A]

You know, there's quite a few times I've had burnout in my career, which is like, if you're going into this as a creator, there is an element you have to expect that because it is a treadmill, you're consistently moving. And so I would say after another round of burnout was when I sort of was like, I got to, I got to change here, you know. And honestly, Covid played a big role. I was in Toronto at the time, I was in my house. It was just this consistent repetition of mundane ness in my life that I'm like, not only am I going to move my life to the States, I'm also going to re, rebrand and start a whole new series because I can one make money from that, but I could also wake up every day with this refresh and I think it was, it was really about that. Is my life as a creator? Is the ecosystem being a creator fulfilling anymore? And at the time it wasn't. So I had to do something.

[B]

It's interesting when I, when I've watched your shift as someone who enjoys your content and as a friend, it's it. I would, I almost. It was a really interesting clicking moment for me because in my own journey for content creation, it's, it's the exhaustion of this treadmill is almost like you're running your own show. And it's like realizing that you need to like show up as this host and like you have like parameters to the show and there's a character and you're a brand. But your transition to me is like so clearly this move to the online social platforms, taking on this role of what was once tv. Cause your new, your new approach is very much like a documentary style TV show. Like I feel like I'm tuning in to a TV show on your YouTube channel in a way that's different from the older style of well produced content that you used to have.

[A]

100%. I wanted to go series based because there's a lot of consistency. I can actually show more emotion. People can get connected to a story, which is the biggest thing. These standalone videos. The climate of YouTube has changed and that's something that if you're going to get into this business, you have to embrace change. It is going to be hitting you in the face like multiple times a year and every single time it's this, oh, man, like I had something, you know, and it's like you just got to keep rolling with it and it's always gonna work out as long as you keep rolling with it. But yeah, it was, it was time for a change. And the series, the documentary style is something that I wanted to explore with for a little bit.

[B]

The way that you just responded to that really, really shows me how big of a pro you are. Because in me being early in the journey, I've recently had the algorithm kind of change on me and like I'm really realizing I need, I can't do more of the same. Like it's just not getting the numbers it was, but it feels personal. And the way that I just saw you respond shows that it's so imper. Like I, I could just tell in your body language and your approach, like you've been here before, you're like, ah, like we gotta move again.

[A]

Like.

[B]

Whereas as for me looking at it, it's felt so deeply personal, like I'm not good enough. Like I.

[A]

No. Oh my God.

[B]

But it's, but it's so interesting seeing a difference in approaching it based on how long you've been in the game.

[A]

100%. And I appreciate that. But it, honest to God, it like breaks my heart when I hear creators take it personally because I've been there and I've, I've even gone like through therapy, not necessarily because of this, but because just naturally I like therapy is super health, like healthy. And it was, there's been times where I've talked to my therapist about this where you take it personally. You take it and you start to question, am I still funny? Am I still entertaining? Do I still have the, the edge to make people want to tune in? And the answer is always yes. Like just know everyone's capable of views with checks and balances. Of course you don't want to be doing just trash content and nobody tells you. But everyone's capable of views. But just know the algorithm is going to be consistently changing and it's this love hate relationship where you're like they're a coworker that is just there. It's a part of the job. You know, you got to work with them and there's nothing you can do because it's just the climate. Social media, it is not. And this is what I wish people knew. Social media is not what it was 10 years ago, five years ago. It's, it's completely changed. You look at people like Mr. Beast coming in, they are creating full on TV shows and you look at the views they get and it's tough to compete with that, right? Because the audience looks at that and they go, I love this. And then they look at everyone else that don't have half a budget of that, even a quarter of the budget and they go, why aren't you like Mr. Beast? And it's like, well, Mr. Beast is not an influencer. Mr. Beast is now mainstream entertainer, you know, so yeah, don't, don't get caught up in numbers fluctuating. I wish I could just speak that and have people absorb it. Don't get sucked into that because it is a mind game that you will, you won't ever understand.

[B]

It's so, it's so refreshing to hear that. But it's also interesting for you to talk about too, how it's so easy to group social media into one box and to see like YouTube is Instagram is, Facebook is TikTok. And they're also all such different beasts. In addition to that, social has become a different beast in the last few years. How, what is your approach, your mindset and your thought for kind of each platform and how do you approach each platform? By being a full time content creator.

[A]

Each platform completely different. I mean you can recycle content vertically, which is why I'm now mainly in the vertical space. To me it makes the most sense, but I approach them all completely different. TikTok. TikTok is purely about a five second hook or I mean initially and then you got to keep going with it. Whereas YouTube is more community based. YouTube is where a place where people are going to get to know you and they're going to, they're going to follow you, they're going to buy your merch, you're going to create that, that fan base. Just because the nature of YouTube isn't about discoverability. You may search how, like how to sew and then discover somebody, whereas the, the entire climate of TikTok is about, for you it's about going boom, boom, boom. Oh, that's funny. Never seen them. 90% of the people you've seen on the for you page, they're just a random person you didn't see five seconds ago. It's, it's all about discoverability on that platform. Instagram is also sort of like a club based community thing where a little bit less discoverable because it's, your followers are gonna get fed that. But there's guidelines in order to get pushed out on Instagram you gotta keep it under 90 seconds I believe for a reel and Reels are the ones that really get you discovered on Instagram. Everything else, you're gonna live in your own sort of built ecosystem. So I do approach it different. There's times I'll create different edits. The edit I create for TikTok will not be the same that I create for Instagram and sometimes it's even different for YouTube and it's just because you have to hit what complements those platforms. So that's sort of the way I look at it.

[B]

Shit, that was gold. That was such a perfect way of explaining the absolute difference between the platforms and it so simply in a way that I've actually never put it that you're so right. Like YouTube, you're tuning into your favorite creators. They feel like your friends, you know them. It's like your safe space because you know them, but you don't know them. TikTok is literally just the hamster wheel of like dopamine hits of like, here's 35 videos over the next 40 minutes just to like keep you engaged. And Instagram is, is our modern Facebook.

[A]

It's yes, yes.

[B]

You actually know you're keeping up on where they are in their life. Maybe some influencers are too, but not the same as YouTube. You don't know those. It's a really fast.

[A]

A perfect way to also look at this is like social numbers wise. I've never had a larger social footprint than I have today. But not that this matters, but just to show you community. When I was doing like, when I was doing YouTube full time, like I would get recognized at Winners, I would get recognized at Walmart, in the streets. It was much more of that because they felt like they knew me on a personal level. What my favorite color was enough to approach me now like it might happen maybe a couple times a year because I'm mainly big on TikTok. You'll see videos of TikTokers having meetups and it's like it's heartbreaking that nobody shows up. It's because, yeah, they don't know you on TikTok. You know, like to establish a community on TikTok is challenging to do, especially if you're not doing it in a series based thing.

[B]

So how do you. So today you're mainly a TikTok creator?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I would say so. TikTok takes care of the creators somewhat like American creators, Canadians. I gotta be honest, I've got such a bone to pick with TikTok Canada. In Canada you don't get paid on TikTok Canada. And it's brutal because there's so many talented Canadian TikTok creators that have to do so much more to get by because they're not a part of the creator program. You know, you can do it through brand deals. Sure. But yeah, it's. I would say now, yeah, whatever goes on TikTok goes on Instagram. So I would say I'm more of a vertical format creator because it does go on all these.

[B]

So when you call yourself a vertical format creator, you just approach it as like, this is the content I'm creating this week. And then are you approaching the creative with getting your TikTok piece, your Instagram piece, and your YouTube piece, or what's your process?

[A]

I actually am turning my camera vertically and that's like the most concrete thing you could do as a creator because, like, everyone's so, like, it's not vertical integration.

[B]

You've actually turned the camera vertically.

[A]

That's hilarious. And I have to tell you, because I was trying to find ways I could recycle horizontal. And it's. It's just a lot. Not only is it a lot more work, but you'll have to film so zoomed out so you can get a really appropriate, like, aspect ratio for vertical. It's. It's hard for me to watch vertical content when it's like zoomed up on their face because I know that you've just regurgitated this from horizontal video. So I have to, like, it is different. Vertical creator and horizontal creators are different. I have to show up vertically every day or at least three times a week. Whereas YouTube, you could get by with one video every two weeks if it's like really polished. So I find I'm working like a 9 to 5 job, something that I was avoiding for so long. But I treat my career so seriously. And I show up every single day, 8am emails until like 11, scripting and writing out videos. And then I start filming by like noon one, almost every day. And then I edit till about 6:30. So it's totally different.

[B]

Wow. And wow. Like, so you're showing up every day with a vertical camera shooting for TikTok. What are you. What is your posting rate per platform? Are you posting every day?

[A]

I try to. If I. If I can create a quality video, I try to. But the reality is, no, I'm not. Like, I'm in the middle right now of a series. And the issue about filming a series is you have to do it sequentially. You can't take a break and do another random piece of content right so I'm doing one on the Beatles right now and I just locked down an interview with someone that was like really close with the Beatles. But I only have that on Friday. So I can't upload from like today until Friday. So what, what I can do is I could still shoot and edit for other sort of dead spaces I might have in the timing. There's never going to be a time I'm sitting on my couch playing Fortnite at 2pm on a Tuesday. It's, it's. I think the art of being a creator is make it look effortless, but also like working hard as hell behind the scenes. Right.

[B]

Well, it also shows you too, like you really are producing a TV show. Like I did not like the level of your production and how good you are on camera is, is, is unmatched. But in now hearing you, you actually are really piecing together a documentary.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You know, essentially, yeah. The efforts I go through with these series. Yeah, absolutely. About locking down interviews. I've had offers to be an investigative journalist and it's just not somewhere I want to go because I want to create content one on my own terms. But investigative journalism is sort of surrounded by negativity or true crime. It's just not something I really want to do right now. But yeah, I would say it's produced similar.

[B]

Yeah, it's just so freaking cool. How did you decide that you're going to become this YouTube documentarist? I can't. Where you're like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna buy these photos on the Internet at an auction. I'm gonna find these people in the world.

[A]

It was, you know what, it was always about originality. Before I did this channel, I was doing denocracy and it was art. I was, I was a full time artist for four years in Toronto and the premise of that channel was every video I had to think outside the box and it had to be so damn original that you start to develop this muscle in your head of like that's been done before. Now what can we do to reinvent and innovate this idea? I think right now I see a influx of creators that all they do is take the same joke and regurgitate it. It's literally the same joke and doing it the same. And platforms do promote this because they have these templates where you can essentially take the concept and just redo it again. For me, I don't find value in that because I may have seen it once. I don't need to see you do the same joke again. So I often will sort of pass by that. I personally like original concepts. I like stuff that is. Wow, that's cool. How did they think of that? Like, that's something I want to ask when I watch a creator. And so naturally, like, the muscle that I've been working over the last four years is. No, no, that's been done. How can we innovate this idea? How can we make it bigger? Can we make it more colorful? Can we do it backwards? Can we do it super small? Like, I don't want to do something that's been done before. I want to do it my own way.

[B]

That makes perfect sense. But like, how. What is your process? How do you ensure you know what's been done and you aren't doing it before? But then also doing three art projects a week. Week. Like, how do you do this?

[A]

It's. I spend a lot of time on social media at the same time. Like, I'm not a creator that is just creating and I don't spend any time on it. Like, I am on these platforms all the time. Like, I am scrolling on TikTok all the time. I'm looking at what the new trends are. I'm very up to date with what the latest memes are, what the trends are. And not that I do the trends, but just that I see where people are going with what they like to see. You know, is the current trend right now something that I could maybe implement into one of my series or one of my videos? Yeah. And just seeing what sort of the climate of YouTube is doing. I know how the algorithm changes because I'm a part of it. I'm watching it, I'm experiencing it. I'm a part of the people that are teaching it what we want to see. And so because I spend all this time on social media, scrolling, consuming content, it helps me know what it. What I'm creating is going to hit or not.

[B]

Wow. And do you have like a YouTube coach? Like, do you have. No, you, like, you do this all on your own?

[A]

I do it on my own because I've been there since the start and I, I do do consultations with people. I help consult, you know, people building brands. I've helped brands in the past with, with helping grow their brands. It's something I do behind the scenes. And I think what I have to attribute that is, you know, I've been doing it for so long, I've been seeing the changes happen. So it's. It's something that, not that I think I'm too good for. But I don't need a coach because I've experienced it all on the ground level, you know?

[B]

Yeah. I just can't imagine how lonely. Like, lonely is the wrong word, but just, like, you know, needing that soundboard or that reinforcement that, like, this is a good idea or, like, what. That kind of. How. How do you get that? How is it your community? Like, where. Where do you go for that?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I. I love the way you profile that as lonely, because I think the early days are. Are lonely only because when you're not established, you get looked upon as, like, cringe or, oh, my God, you see what she's doing now on camera, and it's like, you got to go through so much of this, just judgment from people until you make it. And then there's a shift, and the shift happens, and everyone's like, oh, bro. Like, you were. You were always so funny. I'm like, you weren't here the first three years, was I? Yeah. And it's like, it is lonely, but you have to believe in what you're doing, and you got to love it enough. I think a lot of people get into this for a quick, like, paycheck or they want fame, and both of those. If that is your. Your mantra, your catalyst for why you're showing up, you're gonna dry up because your passion isn't there. If you're passionate, it's pretty unwavering that you're gonna. It doesn't matter if you have a soundboard or not. You look at your stuff and you go, this is good, because I like it. You know?

[B]

No, it has to be on something greater. That's why I talk so much about. Because, like, in my world, when it comes to utilizing content to connect with more customers or to grow your brand, the people who are the best at what they do are the worst at marketing themselves. And video is often a way to really show your expertise and, like, showcase why you're the best. And it's hilarious, because I am fortunate to work with the best surgeons and the best doctors or whoever from their. From their craft. And they're like, I hate the idea that I have to do this, but I'm like, if you don't do this, they can't find you. But it's overcoming that barrier of, like, people judging you, you looking, feeling like you look stupid, not having people to get that sounding board and then deciding at what point. And this is also what I struggle with, too, is really, you can't outsource all of it. Like you really have to be the driving force behind the creative and like what topic is interesting and like how to communicate it. And so many people think, think that they can like basically buy their way to virality and it, it doesn't work. Right.

[A]

And that's why talking, it doesn't. Yeah.

[B]

So interesting because it's like you, you're the, you're living it, you're doing all the tricks.

[A]

Yeah, it's, you know, it's a lot of people, they, they are so fearful of that first year or two years of cringe. And I, I have to say there's no way around it. There's no way around it. Even if you have a really big like influencer friend that's there to sort of put you on their platform, you still have to fight the shadow that they're putting you in because they're connected to you. So there's no way around the cringe at all. It's, it's, I think where people get caught up is they don't have a voice, they don't know what they're showing up for. They know what they want, they don't know how to get there. So to your point, they will pay and they'll outsource. They'll hire an editor, they'll hire somebody to make the ideas for them. They'll use AI to do this and it's like, sure, do all that. But at the end of the day, your bank account is going to take a hit and your views will also be low. It's really beneficial to sit back and go, what am I showing up for? What is my voice? What do I have to offer? What is my genre or niche? What do I want? When somebody invites me on their podcast, what do I want them to ask me? Because I look at these, these people that I, that are, and they're friends of mine, they're awesome people. When they create these recycled jokes, I go like what? I don't even know what sort of you are as a creator. Like this is just your brand.

[B]

Like your brand can't be to re regurgitate what other people. It's not a long term strategy. That's not a brand.

[A]

Exactly right.

[B]

Like there has to be that element of originality, what makes it unique. But what hangs people up is that they don't realize they already are that. But it's, it's actually harder to be yourself on camera than it is to be a different version of yourself. And it's, you can hear something that someone says and it sounds good and it's easy to reuse. But our brains are so good at navigating if it's like, if it's authentic or not. Like, especially through nonverbal communication, like something can just feel a little bit off of like, yes. Tone of voice and how you delivered and you can't quite put your finger on it. But something's like a bit uncanny. And it's, that's the difference between like, swipe next, you know, not remembering their name, you never coming up again in the algorithm. And it not working.

[A]

See, the audience is so smart, they, they pick up on everything. They pick up on inauthent, like, inauthentic behavior so fast. Like, like this is where a lot of people get cut off. Early on, they'll take these brand deals just because money's thrown at them. And it's like you're gonna start to speak and sell a product. Yeah. That you don't use. And your audience is gonna be like, I've watched you for years. When have you ever showed interest in this or talked about this? Your audience is so much smarter to your point, because they pick up on things that are nonverbal. They see the cringe, they see the forcefulness of comedy. They can see the forcefulness of trying to be, you know, vulnerable. You know, they can see that.

[B]

Well, as an aside, it's also just so interesting, kind of the power of the ego. Because even in my, you know, small foray into doing this, there's been bigger brands that have reached out to, you know, to be sponsors on. I put it in quotations, the podcast, because I still can't accept this is a podcast. But the, but it's. And I've really battled with it because part of my, like, ego wants that check and balance of like, like, you know, I made it, you know, small check, big brand I respect and I've been paying for their service for years, wants to be on the spot. But then I think I'm like, you know, this is, this isn't what I want this to be about. Like, to me, it's not worth it to get that ego check. Because the amount of money is so immaterial to what this represents from a longer term brand perspective. And the reason why I bring that up is when you're focused on building a brand long term, you have to be focused on building a brand long term and selling yourself out for getting, for working with brands that are inauthentic. That doesn't feel right. Can be great cash now, but it doesn't it doesn't work for what you're actually spending the time on doing. And you have to look at your time cost 100%.

[A]

And it's not, it's not only just that, it's what are you selling your reputation for? There's a lot of people that will, you know, that'll just like try to go down the party route. Like I see the early 20 year olds on TikTok trying to establish the coolness, right? And I look at that and I go, okay, that, that's gonna work for like a year. But eventually you will age out of this, right? And on top of that you're making yourself not sponsorable from majority of the brands. One of the smartest things I did early on was I remained family friendly. I didn't really swear in my videos. I kept it light hearted and just purely about the entertainment. And because I did that one, I've been able to have a career over a decade, but I've also been able to work with almost like, like tons, almost over 200 big time brands from McDonald's, every major sports league. I've traveled the world. Because you are a safe bet that these brands are trusting you to speak and represent them for. Right? So taking, taking brand deals will become a crucial part of your business. And I think a lot of people get caught up in. I don't want to sell out. I don't want, it's like, don't worry about the, the fringe minority that are going to say sell out. Look at them taking these. You need to, to survive as a creator. You can't produce for free. So you have to take brand deals, but you have to take ones that, that are authentic, that aligned.

[B]

Do you feel being family friendly was authentic to who you were as a person or was it? Absolutely, yeah, it was.

[A]

There. There's both, right? There's both. When I show up, I'm. You're putting on a uniform. It doesn't matter who you talk to. We all have a uniform that we put on on camera and I call it a uniform because I struggled with it for so many years. I would, I've, I've created consistently for 12 years. And like everybody does, you go through hardships in life and I've gone through breakups, I've gone through loss of like grandparents. These are things that emotionally, visually even make you sad. And to show up and be this goofball showing you how to do magic tricks, it contradicts like what you're truly feeling, right? So what I struggle with is like if you take too much time off of social media, you'll be forgotten. But how do I show up? And, you know, through conversations with a therapist, it was accepting that just like it is when you go to a 9 to 5 or you work at Target or whatever it is, you got to put on a uniform and show up for that job. And so that really changed things for me as a creator because now I can separate Dan Roto from Danocracy and I could show up and be this, you know, I swear in my, my real life, but I try not to swear in my social life because it's just not the Persona that I want to cultivate, you know?

[B]

Yeah, that's. I, I also wanted to ask you on a separate note, and obviously it just left my brain.

[A]

That happens.

[B]

Oh, the good. What, what advice would you give? Because your content is so engaging, but you're talking to yourself. Like, how do you get over the. Having these full conversations and making it seem so natural without having that feedback on the other side?

[A]

So whenever you watch something like, like there's been a massive influx on social media of people believing in fake videos, right? And I always tell people, always ask yourself, like, who's filming this? Like, where's the camera? The lighting is oddly good. Somebody had to hit record. Ask yourself that. And then you won't necessarily buy into things as far. But not that I want to say I'm tricking people, but when I create my videos, there are times where I'll say a line four or five times, and it could be the most simple line. It could be like, this is crazy, guys. This photo went from this to this. And I didn't like it. So I'll say it again. And I'll say it again. There's a large portion of producing involved until you get one that hits and jump cuts are a really great way that the audience will start to think it's one smooth, smooth thing, right? But I say ums. I say likes in my day to day. I, I remove all those from the video so it comes across more smooth when it comes to actually filming. One trick I used to do was I would pretend there's literally a movie theater of just like small people in there, you know, just, just sitting there watching me and I'm like talking to them. You know, you got to have some sort of technique. Otherwise, yeah, you're going to question, oh, my God, my neighbors listening to me right now. People down the street are going to hear me talking. You got to get over that. And you will once you realize that lens is actually somebody. It's not just glass, it's not just a piece of plastic that's gonna live and die here. If this gets online, people will see that and they're gonna absorb it. So treat it like it's a room full of people.

[B]

Wow. I mean that's such a great. So your little theater of people live right inside the camera.

[A]

Yeah, I picture, you know what it is. When I first started, I had my, my idea of what my demographic was, you know and I started creating when I was a teenager. I was thinking, okay, we're going to have one, one girl that thinks I'm hilarious. We're going to have one guy that wants to see me sort of, you know, mess up. I'll have like three characters and as long as my crew, my, my stuff hits them, I don't care about everyone else because that's my demographic I'm going for. And I think it's still sort of that trick. It's morphed over the years, but I still sort of do that with shot and forgot. I start to think now, okay, We've got a 60 year old woman in Iowa. We've got like a 22 year old man in Atlanta. Right. Like I have these demographic ideas because I look at my stats, I know who I'm appealing to and those are the people that I'm speaking to in my mini theater.

[B]

No, that's just like literally pro behavior. Like you look at your demographic and you use that as your way to communicate. Like that's even something that I can learn from. Like I'm, I'm so focused of when I'm creating content that I'm just like, like, like seriously, you can laugh at me like speaking the genius. I was like, oh, it's a, I'm just gonna come show up and speak. I should take this from you and say, okay, you know what? My audience is actually a 45 year old woman who owns a medical spa. You know, she's really working hard on marketing and branding. What is she struggling with? And yeah, I find it's the simplest stuff that I'm constantly like, ah, because you, it's what you are missing. And all of this like the stress and the in the, and how many platforms and how many things to do that you just become overwhelmed by the simple things and you miss those simple things.

[A]

Yeah, there, there's two sides to social media. There's the consumer and then there's a creator. Right. And you guys are going to have two different perspectives. There's a lot of noise out there. As someone that just consumes content, you're going to watch it, you're going to believe it, and you're going to take a carry on. As a creator, you need to try to figure out how to get most of those people to watch you. Right. And there's a million and one gurus out there that are going to tell you all these stats and how to manipulate them and work with them, but you have to find one that works well for you. YouTube offers an entire catalog of stats that you could figure out where in the world most people are watching, what age range and you are going to get. You're going to drown in that stuff. So it's best that you figure out one stat and just learn the hell out of that one stat and then try to create with that stat as a strength. So for me it's always been demographic. I want to know who I'm talking to. I don't necessarily care where they are, I just want to know who they are. And you know, it's not so, so much about this video generated more money because again, it's about the long term goal. Is that demographic changing over the years? If it is, I'm going with them because we're a team, you know.

[B]

Yeah. How do you balance the this video made money versus this video feels good creatively but needs some more work into it. Like do you feel that you're, you're torn by this and that your brand can go off kind of its.

[A]

At times? Absolutely. You'll get lost, lost in the sauce type of thing. Because there's times where I'll create something and I put so many hours and passion and heartfelt emotion into it and it just doesn't go anywhere. And then there's times where I've created something and boom, it freaking skyrockets and. And you can sit there and go, why did that happen? But you're going to drive yourself nuts because it is a lot of the time an algorithm thing. It was the right time, it was the right people that saw it early. It was shareable. For this reason, you will. When I went viral for the first time, oh my God, did I lose myself? Because when you go viral, it is like a complete hit. It's like you go to work for nine to five years. It's like if you go to work and your boss shows up and goes, no, no, no, go take a vacation and we're gonna pay for it. Don't show up for work for two weeks. Don't even Worry about it. Cause we're gonna pay you full for the two weeks. On top of that, your growth is continuing. So when I went Viral, I went 4 million views in like, I don't know, a week. Like, it's. To today's standards. It's not the same, but I made a chunk of money and I was growing so fast that I was starting to get used to that. And then when you start to see it die down you go, whoa. It's like trying to grasp and grab onto something, but it's like you can't. It was destined to leave. You're not. Nobody creates viral banger after banger unless you're somebody like Mr. Beast, of course. But I started to really. I was actually lower at the end of the whole viral experience than when I started because I thought people didn't like me anymore. I wasn't funny. I lost my groove. That happened to me probably. I fell for that sort of about like, probably four or five times now. You know, I just did a Beatles video. It's at 2 million, it's only been up for a day. And I look at that, I go, awesome. That's great. I love it. Let's keep going. I don't sit there and I go, awesome. Like, oh, let's stew in this. It's like, don't waste your time because it is going to. It's going to hit hard when you're on the downswing of that and it's so.

[B]

You're so right. And on the, like the. When you're investing in your personal brand on the non. Not the creator, as a creator side, but as the, like, this is the way to market in the digital age side. People think that the, it's. Have you read Winning by Tim Grover?

[A]

No. No.

[B]

Okay. Absolute must. I will gift it to you for giving me your time today. But what I. So Tim Grover was Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant's coach. And it was like, okay, it was a really interesting coach because Michael Jordan got an additional coach outside of the team's coach, which was unheard of at the time because he wanted like an extra edge and he wanted to, he wanted to get his own, like one on one time. And Tim Grover was like a nobody. And they like, it's a really cool story of like really how they together became Michael Jordan and Tim Grover. So anyways, the whole point of the book is he talks about like winning is. It's like, it's, it's active. It's not transactional. Life isn't about like how A game is a win or a loss where, like, you win and you relish and then you can, like, you know, take the week off and enjoy it. He's like, when working with people like Kobe and Michael, like, winning is everything. Winning is a lifetime achievement. Like, everything is towards a larger win. So if you want to be seen as the top YouTube, if you want to keep talking about Mr. Beast, if you want to be Mr. Beast is winning. Like, he doesn't get a video that gets a super crazy video camera count and then just, like, take three weeks off. Like, it's. It's perpetual. Focus on, like, okay, cool, what's next? Like, let's keep going. And people see virality as, like, this is the means to the end. Once I get that crazy video, I.

[A]

Can, you know, it's. It's exactly that. I mean, like, there's been multiple times in my career, you know, for me, there's been a few. Like, I was up for an MMVA in 2018, and when I grew up, like, yeah, for YouTube. Yeah. So growing up, MMVAs were everything. I grew up watching that going there. And so when I got nominated for one, I'm like, if I have that, I could stop. Well, I won the mmva. Yeah. And it's like, I loved it. But then this sort of like, now what happens? Right. It was great for a while because I got a lot of brand work because of that. It's like a. It's a giant pedestal for someone that is sponsorable or, like, has sort of made it at that moment. I just recently had one. You know, like, my idol growing up was Tony Hawk. And probably a couple months ago. Yeah, like, that sort of fell into my lap, and it's like, I'm going to see him next week. I fly to San Diego on Monday, and it's like, it's insane because I'm in another one. And when I am done in San Diego this time. Well, when's the next time I'm going to see Tony? I don't know. I don't know. And I have to figure out the next move. Right. And so I've got things in the works already that I'm sort of growing. So I think over the years, I've learned that you don't. You don't mark one thing as the plateau mark or where you're going to stop. You mark it as a pit stop. Yes, yes. It's like, you got to keep going. You got to give yourself, like, the nectar, enjoy the moments and appreciate that and build confidence off of that. The only reason why I can sit here today with you and talk so confidently about this is I've grown three different genres to over a million. My most recent one was in a year's time. So I'm so confident what I do. But I can say that because I've sat with these little nectar points of like, success and I've boiled them down to say, Dan, stop thinking you're an imposter. Like you. You can do it. Let's try to find another goal. You've done it before. Don't think this Tony Hawk experience is the be all, end all. We can keep going, you know.

[B]

Yeah. And that's been a really cool moment in my, like adult growth is realizing you earn the great team, you know, like, you earn the relationship, a good relationship with your clients. Like, you earn these moments where you can come in and be like, really be having a contract or a client that it doesn't feel like work because it takes. Like when I was starting out and young and hungry and eager and overconfident, I wanted it all right away. Like, I didn't want the shitty period, I didn't want the learning period. And it's. I know it's so silly to say, but. But that's actually what life is about, you know, like it's. I always cue the Miley Cyrus, you know, it's the climb, but the whole.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

But it's so funny hearing it because, like, for you to grow the third one to a million, it's because you've earned, you've done the work. Like you've earned that process where you went through the shitty periods.

[A]

I have to say, and it's probably the most cliche I think I could probably say right now, but I've learned so much more in the failures and the trial and error than any sort of book. But that's just my learning style, like, than anything. Like the reason why I was able to grow, shot and forgot to a million in one year. It's the most proudest thing I've got right now is because I did the first one in eight years, I did the second one in like three years and then I did this one in one. So I can see like, like how fast I've been able to do it through learnings. You know, sometimes I would try a technique and go, it worked for this person. Well, yeah, it does. You're not that person. Like the comparison people do in this business. It's, it's a lot. Don't, don't Try to be someone you're not and don't try to have the same story that they had. You know, it's just gonna lead you down paths that might take a little bit more time.

[B]

You know, I think that's a great point there. I've been on this, like, case study journey because I'm finishing a book. And the. What was really interesting. It first started with the founder of Ugg, and he talked about how businesses are like stages of life. So you start as a baby, and then you're a toddler and you're an adolescent and you're a child and you're a teenager, and then you become an adult. And he goes, so many people want baby to become an adult and it's not. And when you see a business that way, you realize it's impossible. And I just finished the Ikea book and the, the last CEO of the company, he effectively said the same way, same thing in a different way. And it's, it's really. What you're saying too, is like, it's.

[A]

It.

[B]

You know, you take, you. You have these pockets and periods of. It's. It takes longer to go from a baby to, you know, a child in the fourth or fifth grade and what that cognitive function is than it is to go from a teenager to getting out of university and having to get a job. Right? Like, there's a. There's a faster growth trajectory because those foundations are placed. But we don't talk enough about it with, with everything we do. Whether it's content creating or your job or dating or making friendships. Like, everything is right.

[A]

Those periods of growth, it's so good. It's like, I love that idea that it's a baby to an adult. You can't expedite the process. Like, try to find anything in life where you can create and then all of a sudden it's there. Like a plant, a baby. Like, whatever it is. Yeah, it's, it's, it's fun. Like, like it is fun along the way. I think people view that, like, I want that. It's like, no, you will have fun. When you try things and they don't work out, it's not going to be always so disheartening because you learn something from it. As long as you learn from it. Don't repeat the process over and over. But, like, look at that and go, why didn't it work? I think people can really benefit from asking a lot of questions. And a lot of. I don't think a lot of people are curious enough. They're just so hungry and that's so, so good. But like, you can complement that by zooming out and saying, why? You know, why didn't that work? Why did it work for them and not me? You know, why didn't uploading a hundred videos. I hate this theory, by the way. Uploading 100 videos a week work because it's not realistic. You're over. It's not a strategy. You're just spitballing. You're throwing everything at it and whatever sticks, you're like, I knew it would stick. No, you didn't, because you uploaded a hundred videos a week. That's just, it's just wild.

[B]

Because that doesn't actually require thinking. And like, what's, what's hard is, is the thought and like, is reflection and is like working through things. Like, I learned the most from the most difficult clients, but the best way that I got through the difficult clients is by being knowledgeable. Like, by reading, by consuming information and by growing. And even to your point, when you talk about, you know, the cycles of growth, you, you need to be reflective in retrospective on what's happening. But you can also copy and paste paced, right? Like, you can't take what, what. Like, I can't take what you've done. And that's what, like, I totally have an abundance mindset. I think, like, everybody can go on the Internet and can say what I'm going to say because at the end of the day, the people that are going to resonate with me are. The people that are going to resonate with me, like, they're going to know that that's like. And that's what's so cool about creating content is like, we could all go and do shot and forgot, but yours is going to perform the best because it's the most authentic to you. And I'm gonna resonate with your message.

[A]

Yeah. And that's what's interesting about being authentic, is that you will find people that love you for that. And if you go into it thinking, I need to get everyone to love me for that, you won't win because there's no. Even in life, like, no one's gonna. Not everyone's gonna like you. And there could be some silly reason that you're so out of control for, you know, but it's just, it's just the reality of the situation. I know when I'm going viral because I will get an influx of hate comments. It's the weirdest, most backwards thing, but when I see someone making fun of me or Saying, this guy's talking too much. I know I'm hitting a market that is not my norm and I'm getting the views for it. And it's going good and it's going good. And a lot of people are fearful of comments, but I'm like, guys like hate comments in a lot of ways. For social media means you're hitting like you're hitting an area that you didn't before, you know.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, like the timing couldn't be better to talk about this because one of my clients right now is actually on Dragon's Den. And have you seen this whole like Boba clip that's like internationally viral? And she reached out to me yesterday and she's like, hey, like I'm so her. She is a clothing brand. Nothing about is, is controversial. Nothing about any other than she happens to be from Quebec. That's the end. They're both on the same show during the same season and her episode is airing this week. And it was basically like a full blown halt even to post content because of fear of people being angry about the Boba comments. And it's really fascinating, like how crippling this idea of like controversy and cancellation is on the Internet because, like it actually is. There's no rational reason as to why a completely separate business that's on what happens to be a TV show that's effectively 10 or 12 skits an episode, why you would not post your content. And when I explained to her as a content creator, I'm like, this is absolutely a gift. Like the algorithm right now is riding higher because of Dragon's Den. Anything that you post has nothing to do with that. So if anyone feels the need or inclination to comment on another business, you're going to get a spike on the algorithm. But people don't realize that controversy is actually, you need a, you need a solid opinion. You need to actually say something on the Internet in order for the content to work. Like going on and like saying nothing and like looking nice doesn't perform.

[A]

Yes, yes. Yeah, it's. You know what? I think a lot of them, it's not their fault because it's sort of similar to like when an earthquake happens, the earthquake happened over here, but afterwards there's a tsunami that's affecting it over here. This wasn't a part of the original zone. That's probably what she's going through, is they see that and cancel culture. Thank God it's sort of calmed down a bit. But it was so brutal, like a year, two years ago that if you even shared a hot take, you would get canceled. And I'm so happy to see that sort of dissipate a bit. And like, let's sort of focus on people that actually deserve that versus somebody said something I don't like. So let's cancel them. Yeah, you know, I get her fear, but you're right, it is a great time to ride the wave that people are searching. Dragons Den.

[B]

But I'd love to get your opinion on this because there's been several moments and it's why I've become, I feel like a bit more charged on the topic where I've been really apprehensive to, to post a video. Like, it's been kind of around those like, hot button topics. But I'm not going into the video for it to be controversial. I've just created content which I, which I feel has a very rational and logical argument towards it, but I'm not afraid to not post it because of the topic it touches. I guess it'd be probably a fair assessment of it. And there's been moments where I'm like, do, like, am I prepared? Like, am I ready? Do I want this? Is this worth it? And I've kind of waited for it to hit and it, like the anxiety was real, but it never really happened. Like, I found, like. And maybe it's. Maybe it's the state or maybe it's that if you actually have an opinion on something that isn't like hateful, aggressive or angry, but there is still an opinion there. Like, I've had people that have, like, disagreed, but that like the tsunami of like, outside your front door, like, we're killing your first child. Like, you can't. You're unhirable. Like, like I'm being dramatic. But, like, that hasn't really come. Do you. Have you seen people that really haven't deserved it? Or is this a bit of like an overblown fear of people who've, who've created content to go, like, to kind of get that clickbait headline and you know what I'm saying, like, where I'm going with this?

[A]

I see, I think a lot of people, the issue is they want to share an opinion, but there's no education behind it. It's I hate these people or I hate that. But why? Like, like share why. And it still may even be fueled by irrational thoughts, which, which is just not fair at the end of the day, I think with people sharing opinions and not educating why they came to that is only going to hurt you because you're doing it, you're doing it to say something controversial and you're not providing context. You're not providing anything.

[B]

That's not the same thing though, right? And I guess that's kind of what I, what I'm. Where the lane way I'm getting into is like, you know, people listening to this aren't, you know, therapists that are prepared to be Jordan Peterson. Like, that's not the average person that's listening, right? And it's so for the average person that's listening, it's like there's this, this absolute fear of, like, I can't do anything online with an expert opinion because therefore I may be canceled. You know, like, by saying something. And to your point, it's if, if it's. I'm not in the box of, like, content creators looking for clicks and likes, I'm in the box of, like, people so afraid to put a video of their business online on Dragon's Den because some other random business that's completely, like, not connected to your point, like the earthquake and it moving. What is your thoughts on that as a creator? Like, do you. Because a lot of the audience that listens to my podcast are business owners or brand owners. These are like, brands that are. Feel like they can't say anything or do anything.

[A]

So the first thing is that nobody is bracing themselves to hear your opinion. So if you don't do it, somebody else is going to do it. You don't have to be so strong with your thoughts and opinions. And maybe that's how you start out. You start out gentle. Don't share statements like all this or this is the only way. Don't be so. Don't. Don't corner your, your topic and narrative because that's where you're going to get people to say, well, actually, and that's not true. Like, don't be so specific and start. And you're going to start to get a feel for it. You're not going to just jump into the deep end of a cold pool. You're going to start, you know, so like I suggest for businesses, it's a great way if you want to come across or if you are an expert, start to share things that have value to your clients or your customers. You know, if you are a life coach, start your video with, hey, here are three things you can do to wake up happier every day. Like, offer value first, and don't make it about you. For this woman that's scared about, you know, a similar situation. I get it. It's always scary to see someone else have something horrible happen when you're in the same like, like ecosystem. Because what happens is you start to put yourself in their current trauma and you go, oh, what would I do? What could happen? Stop. It's not you. You're not doing something controversial. You're going to stop, you're going to think and you're going to, you know, look at this for what it is. Will this piss people off? You know, I don't. My personal take is I don't go on the Internet with the intent of trying to piss somebody off. I'm not a contrarian. I'm not going to say something just for the sake of sounding smart. Right. So I think that's a protective way.

[B]

But what's interesting, though, is even by someone that's not being contrarian but is being confident, is doing the work and is showing up, you're still getting people that aren't happy. And that's also the reality of the situation is like, you want to go for large numbers and you're never going to please everybody. So you also need to bite it, accept it and buck up. Because it's the way to win online.

[A]

It is. It is the way of the Internet. I mean, good lord, the Internet is full of people with ridiculous thoughts. I could say the sky is blue, grass is green, and I will be.

[B]

It's actually not.

[A]

Yeah, it's actually like a reflection of the ocean. It's like, okay, you know, like they're going to start to really dial it in. Have space for that. Expectations will protect you.

[B]

Welcome.

[A]

Have space because you want the comments.

[B]

Like, that's what people don't get is like, you know, a really great video. That was amazing. That was super accurate. That got no views. Got no views.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, it's not, I'm not saying don't be an expert, but just lean into the reality of, like, it, it need. You need to be engaged when you said value. Like, you need to give value, value, but you also need to be. I love the. The Donald Miller how to Build a Story brand. He talks about this more from a branding perspective, but I think it also works for content is like, see your user or your consumer, like, as the guide. Like you're giving them something, you're providing. You're either welcoming them into the conversation or you're giving them something to take away. Right. Like there's something more to this than just it being for you to be on your pedestal, just talking at the camera.

[A]

That's how you Would essentially start a brand is you provide value. A lot of people get into it thinking, I need to make it about me. Hi, I'm Dan and I live in Austin, Texas. Boring. Nobody cares because we don't know you. And I know that sounds harsh, but you gotta hear that and you gotta really embrace that. Go into social media as, what am I doing first? You know, like how similar, like building a brand. You're gonna go to a lot of these, like street fests and give away some free stuff to build up notoriety, you know, and community. The same thing happens with social media. You got to give them something that they are like, you know what? She does know what she's talking about. I'm gonna watch more and I am gonna listen. I'm gonna be receptive this time. But yeah, it's, it's going in. Not like so harsh right off the bat, you know, there's just no, totally.

[B]

But I know there's very few people. Go ahead.

[A]

I was just gonna say like to what you had just said. Here's a great technique people are using today. Going like, creating buzz is what generates engagement. You want those comments good or bad because that puts you higher on the algorithm. People are spelling their titles wrong. People are saying things in a weird pronunciation like, I've got my E phone. It's like, you want people to be like, e phone, it's iPhone. What an idiot. Because that's going to generate more engagement and it works like a charm right now. Sure it's going to change, but to people that are scared about getting comments, take it all. A comment is valuable. Good or bad, it's just the way it is.

[B]

I completely agree. And like the last point on that, like that topic, I find what people get kind of hung up on is where there's space for a contrarian opinion. So for me, it's Google AdWords. Like, I think for the average small business, Google AdWords is a waste of money because the small amount of marketing budget that they have is going into something that's not compounding. Like, once the AdWords money is spent, it's spent. And it's difficult for brands that are constantly bootstrapped because nothing that they're investing in is compounding and growing over time like a brand. So when people are watching, like a lot of small business owners feel really stuck. They don't have a lot of money. They, they're trying to do more with less. And to me, Google AdWords has been designed as such an easy to use pretty platform. You get this data report at the end of the month. And to me, that's kind of my soapbox of like, that's where I disagree. For the people can make money on it can be successful for brands can often be a resource war. And if you want my opinion on where to go, that's not the first place. There's tons of people that are selling AdWords that come for me on the comments and. And they're like, no, you're using it wrong. You have no idea what you're talking about. You know, you're using keyword management incorrectly. And they always sell Google AdWords services. And I'm. I'm comfortable in my professional opinion to make that statement. But I speak to so many professionals that don't want to touch a controversial subject where people are right and wrong on both sides because they just don't want to have that dialogue. But there's often too many videos on the safe space. Like, there's so many, so many videos of people saying a brand is not a logo. So if I come on and I keep doing videos of a brand is not a logo and just, I'm just adding to more content that already exists where there's too much of, like, you need to find that laneway and just provide your opinion. Because the people who want to work with you and hire you are, one, gonna want an opinion that's different. And two, they're probably gonna align with what you're saying. And it's been hilarious. I've had clients come in and be like, I love what you're saying. And like, but let's keep doing Google AdWords.

[A]

And I'm like, okay, so yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 100 I think, because when you look at people that aren't in the social media space, they want to throw money at traditional ads like they did with tv. If, if I were talking to a small brand, I would say, take that money, buy a camera or buy a tripod, buy like an Amazon set and like, but create outside the box content. I just had a consultation call with a woman that sells jewelry, okay. And she's older, and she was looking for my take on it. And I said, you know, like, let's not just go with Facebook ads, whatever. Like, let's find a different outside the box way that'll get you natural, organic views. So for a baker, there are so many things a baker does that is so satisfying to the public because we don't see that every day, but they do that. You could film that and get millions of views, like kneading dough you know, making some funny cookies of like Taylor Swift's face. Like go outside the box of trending things. It doesn't matter how silly it is. The beautiful thing with social media is it took the walls of advertising and it just completely pushed them out of the way and saying there's a million and one ways we can advertise now. You know, and to your point, like, I do agree, like have a different take on something. I am a creator, that my opinion is not really having an opinion. You know, I don't like to get political and I don't like to get religious. These are two things I think.

[B]

Yeah, naturally you would talk about controversy also per se. That's where your brain goes instantly is sex, religion and politics. And that's. It's not the same conversation.

[A]

Right, right. But when it comes down to like a sports team or how, you know, somebody does this, I find I avoid negativity. Like we. I don't know if you saw this recently, but there was that, be that B guy, the bee therapy or whatever, he like would break down brands. All his content was looking at brands, how they failed and why they failed. He just completely got exposed of, you know, selling a product that was inauthentic. It was totally against what he was saying. I find that if you're perpetuating negativity, it's going to come back at some point. I don't get a lot of haters because I don't put a lot of hate out there. You get what you put out and if you're constantly on a witch hunt of people and what they did wrong and this and that, people are gonna look at you and go, you know, that was good, but what did you do wrong? I'm sure there's something there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's like you don't, it's just I don't. You get what you give, you know.

[B]

No, totally. But I'd also say too like where your stuff is interesting and the kind of you you create, maintain entertainment and interest because your stuff is done at such a high level, it's produced like this is your full time job. To the average person that's listening to this, if they own a medical spa or a doctor's office, like they can't do it at the shot and forgot level. And that's where, that's where I'm kind of, I'm talking about this of like you have to say something interesting because if you don't have the this t this high TV show produced platform and what you're talking about of being a baker and doing things that are interesting. Like you have to provide something of value or that's of interest in like you have to say something or do something visually like, or provide or do the work. Like you're doing the work in a different way. So it's not. You have to be aggressive. It's just I see so many like medical spa owners and they're just, they're not saying anything. Like they're creating these videos and I'm like, it's the same stuff that everybody.

[A]

Else is saying or it's just a giant ad. I see and I've seen like medical, medical spas do this where it's like we've got this sale right now for this. I'm like, that is nothing. You have to look at social media as it's a global thing. So for a local business to go on there and share your sales, that's gonna benefit you in like such a micro way that why don't you become an expert in what you do? So to what you're saying, Absolutely, like you can't operate. I do this full time. You have a business on the side. You need to hit your videos more often than I do. So let's look at how we can do that. Either target ASMR stuff that stood the test of time, or do, you know, Q&As on some of the top like, like myths out there, you know, and you could easily obtain that by going on ChatGPT Type in your business. What are the top, you know, misconstrued or myths about this procedure or this. It's going to give you them all, all the top ones it's going to scrape and you just go and do one video on each single one, keep it under a minute, blitz it on all vertical formats and you're laughing. It's very easy content to do.

[B]

It's almost like you do this full time, right?

[A]

Yeah, I'm always trying to find ways to simplify.

[B]

No, that was, that was perfect answer. And it's, it's interesting to me. I wanted, before we wrap up, I want to get the Tony Hawk story in full because I did cut you off. But it's, it's so funny when you talked about the baking stuff. It's like to a lot of business owners, the reason why they don't do something that's so simple is because it's not as easy as putting your credit card in and throwing it at Google Ads. And like that's really the point that I'm trying to make is if you want to stand out and you want to win, which is active, it's not like a, it's not a transactional moment. You need to be like, you need to put in that work and it's more work than just throwing money at an ad platform. And that's, that's the difference between winning or being mediocre.

[A]

100%. Oh my God. The amount of businesses that waste money on these integrated ad platforms on, on social media, it's insane. Like, you would be, you'd be better funneling that money into. Yeah, like a coach, but someone that has targets that they somewhat have to hit or that they at least provide insights like, do not throw money continually at fa. Here's what Facebook does it. You'll, you'll run an ad. It'll say it's gonna hit a million people and you're looking at, wow, it's like, no, no, like 98% of those people are gonna scroll by and it's gonna count for one penny of your ad dollars.

[B]

Even more than that, Like, I've just, it's absolute delusion. Like, I see business owners that are spending like 80 do per click, $65 they would never spend if I was like, if they went to like a Home Depot on Saturday, like, would you pay $65 to speak to someone that stopped to talk to you? Never. And like, that actually might be a better use of money than for you to be doing like 65 bucks on this random click that, like, we really can't track and we don't know if they were going to click on your website anyways. And that's, it's, it's delusion. And even if it's twice 25 bucks or 30 bucks, like, when you talk about how much you spend at the end of the month, the end of the quarter, the end of the year, what is the opportunity cost? If you had paid for a course, booked time with Dan, bought a better camera, like, what. Where would you be? And it's probably somewhere much different because you're growing. You're having to work through things that are difficult. You're having to change your schedule and how you see your business. You're working in your business because you're testing things that are interesting. You're becoming a better communicator. You're doing more work in your industry outside of your. Every day to day, you're just becoming better all around. And it's so much better than Google AdWords. But people still come to me, this is A controversial opinion.

[A]

Yeah. I'm not a big fan of the ad spending either, but here's a good marker for me. When I'm talking to someone, I go, what's your feelings towards TikTok? And if they go towards, oh, TikTok, it's a dancing app. It's this and that. I go, okay, so it's for children. I go, let's start there. Because TikTok is going to be your best friend as a small business. It's insane. And just for people listening, if you're a small business owner. I did a video, an art piece of this little art piece. It went Viral. I made $4,000 in sales in like, under 10 hours after that went viral. And I was super small at the time, was still when TikTok was super early. And it's like $4,000 over a video that was randomly happening. It's amazing what could happen when you put yourself out there, you know? Yeah, I guess that's my sort of take on it is if they've got ill feelings towards TikTok, let's start there. Let's reframe it. Let's open up our mind and realize whatever you saw of these dancing teenagers to whatever, that's not TikTok. TikTok is so discoverable. It's loaded with opportunity. It's insane.

[B]

That's positive, Dan. I'm like, you're an idiot. Like, you just.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Okay. So very quickly, I just. I really would love if you can give the synopsis of the Tony Hawk story, because I. And, like, what you guys are doing, I think it's so cool, and I want to hear it from you.

[A]

Yeah, sure. So Tony Hawk growing up has always been my guy. He's been my idol, my number one. Like, I've got his. I've got, like, skateboard decks going up my staircase, and he's number one at the top of it. Right. And never had any connection with him. Well, I do vintage photo series where I buy photos and I try to reunite them with the families. I would never have a million years thought how I could fit Tony Hawk into that. But the way it happened was, you know, Tony was. Was doing a show in Austin and New York City. Only two cities. It was the weirdest selection. And I went to the one here in Austin with my girlfriend, and I didn't buy VIP tickets or anything like that to meet him, partially because I just. It was just a quick ticket that I bought. We were leaving the show, and I'm like, you know, I really wish I could have met him. I've never met him before. He's like my idol. I really look up to the guy. And she was like, don't worry. Like. Like, you'll meet him. You'll have your time. Literally, two weeks later, I'm chilling on my couch at night. I start getting tagged in Tony Hawk's recent post. And he posted a photo, a vintage photo of this skateboarder in New York City. And he's like, does anybody know the identity of this guy? And I'm thinking, this is literally the niche that I focus on. I find people from the past, I find people from today. And so I jokingly comment, I go, let me see what I can do. Ha ha. I go to bed, I wake up, Tony Hawk followed me. Tony Hawk DM me saying, hey, man, if you're serious about this, I'm in to help. I'm thinking, holy shit. Like, this has now become a thing. I now have to at least make one episode. So I do one episode. I go, guys, Tony Hawk wanted me to find this. Let's. Let's see what we can find. It gets a million views. I'm like, whoa. And he's like, hey, like, put it on my profile as well. So now it's like, it's really getting more attention. I'm thinking, this is crazy. So I do episode two, and then I'm like, now I'm really into this. I gotta figure out who this mystery skater was from 1965. It was an absolute needle in a haystack, like, attempt, right? You're trying to find somebody in the background of a photo 60 years ago. Like, come on, That's. That's wild. Ended up doing seven episodes of this series. They all really popped off. It got over, like, 20 million views total. And I never was able to find the guy. And at the last episode, Tony was like, hey, man, if you want to recreate the photo or at least go to New York to see where it was, I'll pay for your flight. Like, let's do it. And I'm like, oh, my God. Like, now I gotta meet the guy. So he flies me out to New York City. Yeah, I remember, like, the morning, he's in my hotel. Like, he got me a hotel, got me the flight. I'm having coffee here with my idol. Way better than if I did VIP tickets at this thing. You know, the lesson in that is that, like, your time will come. It may not be what you think it is. You know, I wanted to buy VIP tickets to this thing. I didn't they were almost all sold out. I didn't get to meet my guy, but I got a way better experience because I waited and. And it came to me in a different realm. And yes, I did that. I did another episode there. We ended up selling prints. So now I'm in business with Tony Hawk. And yeah, after that landed, he's like, hey, man, you got, like, an open invite to my facility anytime. I'm like, oh, my God, like, I'm coming down to San Diego. So I got him. I got him this really cool piece made, and I'm going to bring it down to him, get to see his facility. And it's just like, life works. Like, this year of my entire life, I want entrepreneurs to know, like, your life can be so wild. In the span of one year, I did a series with my idol, Tony Hawk. With such a niche thing, I never thought it would happen. You know, I shot a pilot for Shot and forgot that we're now going to try to shop around to turn it into a TV show. You know, these are things that, like, that weren't on my bingo card last year. And you trust the process. You put yourself out there, and magic is going to happen. When you do it from, like, a real honest way and a place, it's going to find you. It will always find you. Just, like, really trust the process.

[B]

It's been this, like, message that I'm on a quest to share is that investing in yourself always pays off. But it's not three weeks from now. It's not two and a half months from now. Like, it's not as. It's not a clear moment of, like, a quarterly check mark of like, here's your roi. Like, it is. It. It's. It's seeing life as winning. Like, as long as you're not focusing on what was happening last week, what was happening last month. Like, your life completely transformed forms. And the Internet is seriously this big. Plus, you're way more relevant to brands and businesses and all of the things that once mattered if you have an online presence. Because that's what everyone is trying to. Is they're chasing after.

[A]

Oh, my God. Like, everything, everything is like, do you have a social platform? Everybody wants something like that. They. They all do.

[B]

Like, it's, it's, it's not easy, but it's not. I'm laughing because, I mean, for me, the same thing, like, this past year has been insane. I mean, I was in Cosmo, I'm doing all of these huge brands, but it's. But why I think it's so fascinating is when I. What Cosmo represented when we were kids was guarded and gated to Paris Hilton's, you know, the daughters of magnates or celebrities. But now these brands that held so much weight, so much value, that are so game changing for your business, they're dying for attention and eyeballs and they're reaching out to people that had no business 15 or 20 years ago in being in front of and involved in and in a very short amount of time. Like I didn't start like you 12 years ago. Right. And it just shows you that the world is, that is this big and it's worth investing in. Because your point on Tony Hawk, like what is that worth? Like what is that possibly worth to you? It's literally worth everything and nothing all at the same time. You can't put a dollar value on it.

[A]

Exactly. It's. It's wild with that experience. It blew up my Instagram so much further. And you know, it's funny.

[B]

Like what do you, what do you even tell your your if you guys have kids, you know, like what is that story worth when you look back?

[A]

You know what? I love that you bring up future family. Okay. Because for me I wanted the gold play button on YouTube so bad because I wanted, I grew up like spending a lot of time at my grandparents house and there was always like stuff on the wall. Oh yeah, that's when he met him and that's when grandpa did this. I'm like I want something that my grandkids are going to look at and be Grandpa got this. We're doing that. It's so funny because like yeah, he did that. Right? So yeah, investing yourself goes, goes a long way. The, and everything sort of links up. I mean you. Exactly. You could throw money at something else but it's best if it comes back to you. The Tony Hawk thing. Here's a really funny connection from being like put on his platform. This artist named Kosh. Kosh was responsible for some of the biggest album covers of like all time. Abbey Road, Let it be Hotel California. Right. Like coolest things. Well, I'm now doing this series on the Beatles and this guy made the famous Abbey Road cover and he's like, hey man. It's like now, now he's now the Tony Hawk thing is resourced me to get to a new connection for the next series. Right. Like so much is percolating in the background when you do something that you may not be able to see right away, but it's gonna show its head eventually and don't rush the process. Here's something I can like sort of like leave you on here is when I started social media, I didn't start for one week, one month. I told myself, dan, if you're gonna do it, we do it for one year. And you could quit after one year and we'll be okay with it. We could sleep at night. But before that, no chance. So I gave myself one year and I looked at that point. I said was enough, was there enough that came back to me that made me want to do it again? And the answer was yes. And so I did another year and then another year. And that's a really bite sized way to sort of accomplish such a large task. You know, shot forgot getting to a million in one year. I'm confident enough right now that if, if somebody hired me or whatever, I could build their brand to a million.

[B]

And.

[A]

But it's a lot of work. And like I was willing to put the work in. Anybody can do it. If you're like really focused on the right things and giving it the appropriate time to grow, view it like your kid analogy. You said like a plant analogy. Like, let it have the chance to grow. Like, otherwise you're going to rush it, you're going to ruin it. If you try to over water a tomato plant, you'll drown it. Like there's a million analogies for it. But you're not going to get around the feeling of the ugly duckling phase or having to just wait. These things matter.

[B]

One of my favorite lines is we overestimate what we can do in a year and underestimate what we can do in 10. And compounding is a real thing. There's a point where it starts compounding and it starts hitting where you get that inertia and stuff's rolling. But you needed to commit to that year of this is what this is going to look like. It's probably not going to be perfect. We could probably rip it apart if we had, you know, we could rip it apart for the next hour on all the things you learned and how you grew and how you changed, but by committing to doing something for the year and then what that allowed you to do for the next perpetual forever is what gives you all of this.

[A]

And it's 100.

[B]

It's the compounding of all of it together.

[A]

100. There's times where I'll do podcasts with somebody. I could see where they're going with questions like, what is the secret sauce to this? I'm like, you're gonna hate this answer. And like, yeah, like, there is no secret. The secret sauce is like doing it. Doing the work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, there's no cheat code.

[B]

There is none. Like, it's like where Oz behind the curtain. Well, so if you push the button that first 4:20 on a Wednesday.

[A]

Yeah, that's. But that's what people really want to hear is like some sort of hacking of this system. And what sucks is that there's gurus out there that try to like hinge their business model off of these hacks. And it's like, they're not hacks. There are some tricks you can do, but there's no hack to get to a million, like in a week because those people won't even know you by the time. So, yeah, there's a lot you can do. Just do it. You know, like, don't be scared of a lot of work. You're gonna be learning throughout the whole thing. You will be getting things throughout, you know, it's amazing. I love it. Otherwise, if I didn't love it, I wouldn't be doing it for like 12 years, you know, 100%.

[B]

I mean, you are the absolute expert on this. You've been amazing. I've loved talking to you.

[A]

Yeah, this has been great. Like, great questions. This is what I mean. Like, you, you've got a good insight on the business. You're offering great questions. And the stuff you're asking is actually going to help your listeners because the stuff we've talked about today is, is real behind the scenes stuff. It's not like, what's it like to be an influencer? It's like, no, no, we're talking about the. How do we grow? Like, what do you, what do we actually have to put in the real shit.

[B]

Yeah, I know and I didn't pay you to say that, so that was very nice of you. Thank you.

[A]

Of course. No, I, obviously I'm going to invest my time in something like this because, you know, this also just so your listeners. This reflects great on me too. I get to, I get to speak on something that I don't often get to speak on because I think a lot of people might view my social media as somewhat golden retriever energy. Just like, oh, he's just having fun. It's like. No, like that's, that's the uniform you guys are seeing. Yeah. Like, there's a lot of things behind the scenes.

[B]

You're definitely a wiener dog. Where's your dog at?

[A]

He's. Yeah, he's sleeping right here. He's my. He's my coworker, this guy.

[B]

We should do a cute meet of our dogs. You have one question I need to ask you. Yeah, I got one. Her name, not a wiener dog, but it's a cavalier.

[A]

So cute.

[B]

I know she's cute. Her name is Money Penny. The last question I always ask the guests, I know it's a really. It's a hard one, but what is a brand to you?

[A]

Oh, what? Gosh. What is a brand? I think a brand to me would be when you hear shot and forgot or you hear danocracy, you immediately know what I stand for. Or you could sort of piece together, like, what would Dan do in a situation? You know me enough, I've shared enough of my values that you know what I would do in a situation. I think that, to me, is what a. A brand is. I mean, a personal brand, at least. You know, if I look at somebody like Apple, I look at them, I go, like, what would their take be on this new technology? Like, I want to know them enough. They need to share enough information with me that gives me enough grounds to piece together what would so and so do. So a brand to me is if somebody could ask or come together with the idea of what would brand do? That is sort of a good example of a healthy brand. I don't know if that answered the question. No.

[B]

And the reason why I love that answer is that's why great branding takes time. Because you don't know what a brand represents on the first. Like, on, you know, that's. That's the relationship a brand has to build. And why.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

[B]

The podcast is time.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, you don't get married on the first date, right? Like, there's. Everything has these. You gotta suss it out and be like, is this brand for me? And, like, as the brand yourself, you gotta keep the environment clean. You got to keep it strong, you got to keep it honest, and you got to keep it moral. And I think if you keep it moral and ethical, you'll win. You'll win. And I know that sounds so schoolboy and like, oh, my God, like, but, like, I have kept my brand morally, like, on the straight and narrow, and I look up to people that do the same thing. I'm not going to be the guy that comes on camera, says all this, like, hot stuff that's just cancelable because I don't see value in that. I don't see what that's going to do for me and what I'm currently trying to build.

[B]

That's not classic. Like, it's not timeless. Like, it's. It's. It's doing what's needed to get a quick hit. But that's not for. That's not for someone that's building a great brand.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

That was a perfect answer. Well, I had an amazing conversation. Thank you so much for joining.