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- [00:00]
A
You have to make people feel special. It's about your customer, make them feel like your business and brand is an experience and a treat. What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand. Say it again now. What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand.
- [00:17]
B
Today's podcast probably brought should be brought to you by Charmin Double Ply toilet paper because it emphasized the importance of details and the, the exponential value they can have on your experience. And I know you're writing about how experience is one of the pillars of a brand and I just brought up to you one day when we were coming out of a high end hotel, I'm like, you have this extremely high end hotel that seems to be trying to save money on toilet paper quality. Because when you need toilet paper, it's viscerally relevant to you if it's good quality or low quality toilet paper. And I've just, it's just been something I've always noticed in my life that it seems like the amount of engineering that's gone into toilet paper dispensers to try and limit your ability to take it out so that it rips and I can just see some MBA bean counter somewhere saying, look, if we limit the amount that can be accessed and we buy lower grade, we can save 0.2% a year on toilet paper line. Whereas how it affects the experience of an institution that's gone cheap on toilet paper versus luxury on toilet paper, I think has an exponential impact on how you judge the facility.
- [01:29]
A
No, the experience.
- [01:30]
B
The experience, yeah.
- [01:31]
A
No, it's. You can't. It's like judging the facility is like, is what it is, but that's more complicated than the processing that even happens. Like it's. When you brought this up, I instantly started thinking about all the details I've never thought about in, in a Four Seasons experience and all the things that they justify spending money on without recognition, reward or thanks in order to provide that untouchable experience. And I was thinking about it, I'm like, that's why when we talk about the four pillars to a good brand, it's good product, good story, good, good experience and consistency. And when you think about a brand like the Four Seasons, you can't. It's not just their real estate, it's not just their hospitality, it's not just the quality of their linens and the robe and the items that you get or the experience, sorry, the food that you have. It's the entire experience at the Four Seasons. And it was interesting when you talked about the toilet paper, how I thought about all of those details that kind of go unappreciated, but they do go appreciated because the Four Seasons maintains its spot at the top.
- [02:51]
B
Yeah. When we were talking about experience, we're talking about kind of like that second or third order thinking. It's not just doing what looks good on the surface, but obviously on the Art of the Brand podcast, we're, we're prepared to talk about anything that's relevant to your experience, even if it's toilet paper. But if you take the time to think about what would my customers appreciate that they might not want to verbalize. Right. And that means you actually have to take time as a business owner to kind of like almost walk through what they're doing. But when people need to use the bathroom, it's usually kind of a, it's an important thing to them. It's a personal experience. And if you've cheapened out on the bathroom, well, that affects the entire experience. And so we were just kind of talking about what are some of those small pieces that add up to a greater sum of the parts.
- [03:45]
A
Yeah. Well, the question you have to ask yourself is like, what matters to your brand? Right. And you can't say that I'm not a luxury brand, so I therefore shouldn't care about the details. But the second and third order of thinking is well done. Branding is cerebral, it requires a lot of thought. And when you look again like it depends on what you want your brand to represent, you know, if you think of like a value brand or like a no name brand, that washroom experience, you can justify not being as great. But if you're a premium smoothie shop, you know, or if you're a top end nail salon, you need to be thinking about the soap in the washroom. You gotta be thinking about the Dyson if you're, if you're a gym. Right. I actually can judge the quality of a boutique fitness facility by the hot tools that are in the bathroom. And it's, it's such a silly thing to say, but when you're spending $40 for a 45 minute class, having those other brands as anchor points to position the quality and the caliber of your brand really work. It's a real thing.
- [04:49]
B
No, it just, and it has a disproportionate effect. Like if somebody pays for that premium fitness place, it changes the inside. And there's a Dyson blow dryer. Subconsciously you're telling that person, this is, this is an amazing spot. Plus they love it and there's certain parts of the, of the journey that have a disproportionate effect that linger with you. Right. Like it's funny how I got something.
- [05:10]
A
To add in there quickly. A lot of businesses complain because they can't get more customers to, to buy, but their business is something that is a want, not a need. And when you don't take that extra 10% to make your brand service an experience, then you don't get chosen or thought about over the competition. And you know, both you and I immediately go to Barry's. You know, like I see Barry's as a treat. It's a full experience because every touch point of the brand is obsessed over that. My entire experience is fantastic.
- [05:52]
B
The perfect. I think it'd be awesome to interview the person at Barry's who came up with the order your smoothie before class starts.
- [06:01]
A
Oh my gosh.
- [06:01]
B
Yeah. Because the end of the class they have made spectacular and they make good money off of the smoothies. But to come out of a class and you're gutted and then all of a sudden your brain goes, oh my God, there's a smoothie waiting there.
- [06:14]
A
That's the smoothies too that you can get.
- [06:15]
B
And it's waiting there for you and.
- [06:17]
A
It just takes that with your name on it.
- [06:19]
B
It takes that hardcore class experience. And now you have a smoothie and you just, you leave the place with this smoothie feeling like a million dollars, literally.
- [06:27]
A
Barry's is like an adult rainforest cafe.
- [06:29]
B
Yeah.
- [06:29]
A
You know, like you have to like enter in and exit through a really well curated gift shop. The workout is fantastic. Like the experience was fantastic when you were a kid and you get the added bonus of the treat. Like the way that I see berries in my mind is unmatched because if I did one thing on a Saturday and it was berries, it just, it like tantalizes every sensation. Like, it just gives me like all of the boxes and it's in. Brands don't, businesses don't focus enough on their brand. And that's where, when we talk about like you know, the Aesop, when they, when they expend, they spend, you know, Morton Milton Brown, they, you know, when they buy higher end soaps in the bathroom and you're starting to see airlines start to do this. Like they signal through the details how they want your perception of the brand to be.
- [07:21]
B
And it's the minor details that matter even in a relationship too. Right. You write a little note and you hide it in your partner's purse or suitcase and they open it. That note really isn't a lot, but that tiny detail really leaves an impression.
- [07:38]
A
Totally.
- [07:39]
B
And so it works in relationships. But, and, and for us personally, I'm just thinking of ideas like we like to golf. And, and what is it that you remember most about Cabot resorts?
- [07:49]
A
Oh my gosh. The cookies of the Fred Hole.
- [07:51]
B
The cookies. Right. Like, but how much do those cookies cost?
- [07:54]
A
Nothing.
- [07:54]
B
But they have outstanding cookies that they give to you.
- [07:58]
A
Outstanding, like disproportionate value for investment by making that experience fantastic.
- [08:04]
B
Yeah. And that's what the berry smoothie is. The cookie is high end toilet paper or the scent, which is why we ended up starting talking about this at some institutions.
- [08:13]
A
Yeah. No, I think the Cabot cookie thing is such a great point. Like, it's a high end golf course, but there is no shortage of high end golf courses. Like, the sport of golf is high end. And it's, it's interesting because the Cabot brand is very masculine. Right. Like it's, it's a very boys boy kind of feel to the brand, but it's also really, it feels rooted in tradition. Like they're not really chasing trends. They're not, they don't feel like they're, they feel comfortable in where they're at and they really focus on having like good, like good execution. And the first hole at all of the Cabot golf courses has a cookie jar where you like old school, take the lid off the jar and help yourself to your own cookie. Like none of this like plastic gloves or like it's on a tray where like they're, they're making it to the, like they've completely gone back to what that experience was as a child of like going into the cookie jar and getting your treat. And it's such a, if you know, you know, thing, like it's not the first thing on their website, it's honestly something that you don't really talk about but gives you so much joy when you think back to your round. Because when are you ever rewarded with a cookie at the beginning of a four hour round?
- [09:33]
B
And it's so true. They don't advertise it. If you're a first time at a Cabot resort, whether it's Cabot Cliffs or Cabot Citrus or Cabot Cabo that experience right there, it just sets them apart totally because it's not done anywhere else.
- [09:47]
A
And it's not at the first hole, it's not done at the 18th. And it's, and it was funny because I remember that experience of like, we took two, you know, like we took two each. And like, we were like, can we take two?
- [09:59]
B
No. We spent a fortune on the round.
- [10:00]
A
I know. And it was so special about two cookies. But it was like something that I was like, breaking off, like, little pieces, like, throughout the round because it was.
- [10:09]
B
Such a treat and what I would say for the marketing world, that's the difference between. And let's talk about later how modern business has taken away the vibe. I'd love to talk about that, because an MBA who gets hired to help Cabot at some point as they're growing, is going to say, hey, look, we're doing 50,000 cookies a year now. We can save some money if we buy it all from one distributor.
- [10:37]
A
Oh, yeah. And they're fresh baked every day. That's another good point.
- [10:40]
B
And so they save some money in a line cereal. And they got a good mark at Harvard Business School for that. But it actually kills the experience because now they've sanitized the experience.
- [10:52]
A
But I would even go further than that. You're right. On one hand, big businesses like Tim Hortons roll up the rim. To me, that was such a massive experiential moment that was also just rooted in fond memories throughout my lifetime. That when it's roll up the rim time in Canada, if you're going to anything with a group, like someone's bringing five or six coffees and it becomes such a ritual of rolling up with your teeth to see who won in the group. And most people would win because.
- [11:24]
B
We lost power to the mics. Jazz. Oh, here we're back now.
- [11:29]
A
Oh, you just said I didn't. And it was. They were loaded for most people to win. Right. So within a group of six, you know, two or three would win. But whether it's a free donut or.
- [11:39]
B
A free coffee, that's an example of disproportionate upside.
- [11:43]
A
Totally.
- [11:43]
B
Because if I bring. And every business should experience it, if I bring six coffees to my workplace and two people are going to win.
- [11:50]
A
A free coffee, that brings them back to buy six more for everybody else. But where I'm going with this is it's on one hand, there's like the brand killers, where the brand invested in doing a great experience and in order to save money, they cut it back, that's a huge problem. But that's a separate problem. I think for most businesses, they don't invest the deep thinking into their brand to create a differentiator in their experience that helps them stand out. Like when we talk about you need four pillars to a good brand. Like, having a good product is not enough. Having a good story is not enough. Having a good experience alone is not enough. And then being consistent in all of those, if you don't have any of those three pillars, is not enough. So in order to make a good brand, you have to have the good product, you have to have the good story, you have to have a good experience, and then you have to be inconsistent in all of those things in order to make the brand good. And most businesses who are struggling and sitting on their hands, they're like, my story is amazing. My product is great. But you're not investing in the experience, so you're not making raving fans out of your customers who sit on podcasts and talk about the cookies in the first hole.
- [13:13]
B
Yeah.
- [13:13]
A
And it's too difficult as a business owner, because if you try it for two weeks and you don't get the feedback, you don't know if it's. If it's worth doing, and maybe it's not worth doing. But you have to be obsessed about the experience, because that's the difference of standing out.
- [13:32]
B
It's true. And Cabot has invested in the experience at the beginning.
- [13:38]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [13:39]
B
One of the new things they've done, which I thought should have been done for the cost, is for those of you who golf, they now have a trackman at the driving range.
- [13:46]
A
Cool.
- [13:47]
B
So everybody who goes to the driver time is hitting balls, but they want to know if they're hitting what distance are they.
- [13:52]
A
But by having people who are golf obsessed.
- [13:54]
B
Yeah. So having a trackman there with a screen in front of you that tells you that you just hit your eight iron. 168. Not bragging, but you know what I mean. Like what. What a. What a positive experience that is for me as a golfer about to go out on a range. Like, I can see today what I'm hitting my three wood at. I can. It's. It's. It's. It's money. It doesn't cost that much, but it makes me a lifelong.
- [14:16]
A
But even more than that, because it's giving that individual the experience they want to have. When you're investing that level of traveling, Cabot Cliffs, which is our most famous and original golf course, is really quite hard to get to. It feels like the end of the earth. Halifax. But when you're willing to put that time, money, and resources into it, you see yourself as a golfer and you're an athlete, and they're treating you at Cabot like the athlete that you want to be. And they're gearing up. They've got the best swag at the. At their merch store and they invest in having great swag. So you've got your jersey on like you're decked out in your cabbage year when you're heading out on the first hole. And when you're doing your warmup in your practice round, they're giving you all of the tools the pros use. That really is not that much money so that you have that pro experience.
- [15:14]
B
And it makes me buy a $350 cashmere sweater that I wouldn't have.
- [15:19]
A
The amount of swag we bought was disgusting because the experience, again, it's a disproportionate amount of value. Investing in a trackman to tell you your yardage when in 2024. That is a very inexpensive detail that completely transforms your approach. People like practice to go to Cabot. So like you should be reminding people when they're practicing before they do their round. That's. That took them a four month wait list to get to be able to do that. They're hitting their ball pretty well.
- [15:52]
B
Yeah. And I think psychologically what people miss a little bit on experience or some get it are the concepts of primacy and recency.
- [16:01]
A
Yeah.
- [16:01]
B
So people remember most what they experience at the beginning and at the end. So a lot of people put a lot of effort in the middle. But if, when you walk out, it's not amazing. It can ruin tons of work in the middle. But if you start off with the primacy, like the cookie on the first hole, you've now primed the brain to just think that this experience is fantastic.
- [16:25]
A
If you. Yes. And like it's. It's kind of an if you have to really focus on where to invest. Like really when I think about my travel experiences and like the airlines that will like we'll use my. How I benchmark. The airline is in stupid details like the brands of like the, the drink companies they stock or the snack companies they stock or the brand of soap that they have in the washroom. Like it's hard to judge the airline other than those stupid details and seeing what they invest in for how to signal in place. Or we were just with clients in Tampa and they took us to the Edison, which is like one of the only five star hotels. Or the addition. Sorry, the addition. The only five star hotel in Tampa. And this hotel is a big deal for Tampa because they don't have five star hotels. So they put an insane amount of money in the architecture and the design and the floor flow and the bar and the, and the food and the, all the things, all the things you would expect from a five star hotel. But what the client said to us when we walked in the door says she loved this place because of the smell. And the smell was like Santel, like number 44. Like it was like, you know, it's if you, it's, it's if you know, you know scent, right? Like it's not a groundbreaking custom scent, but it shows you that people who want to give your experience to others as a gift, what they're looking at is like the points of how fantastic it is are the ones that are very difficult to measure.
- [18:07]
B
And how this goes back to our emphasis on story is that make it easy for them to tell a story and it's hard to tell a complicated story, but it's easy to tell a story about something that seems over and above. And that's the disproportionate effect.
- [18:22]
A
And what I also love too about that story, to analyze it further, is it reminds you that it's not enough to just be a beautiful hotel, to just have a good layout and good design and good furniture. Like that's when your product being good is expected. So that's why there has to be the four pillars to make a good brand. Because the expected experience is what takes it from a brand to a good brand. Like if you're marketing yourself as a five star hotel and you don't have those additional elements, it's not special and you don't win. And the way that you're looking at this in business is literally winning or losing. You want to be the. And it doesn't have to be luxury. There's tons of fantastic, like, you know, zets, like we love zets by the airport. It's a 24 hour like Greek restaurant. And it's not about it being the most expensive. They're massive portions, but they're consistent.
- [19:26]
B
You know, I think why it works so well when people fly us to their location is they get so caught up in the details of like trying to just run the business and doing their thing. And then we come in as kind of like an objective third party and we study the experience or what's going on and then that allows us with our range of experience to say, hey, you know what people would probably love is if you just did this at the end and they're like, oh my God, I never thought of that.
- [19:50]
A
Or no, we've talked about this, but we never did it?
- [19:53]
B
Yeah. When you were talking about the airline and I was talking about privacy and recency, why don't airlines make leaving the plane more enjoyable? Right. Like, you know, there's somebody at the front when you walk out that says, thank you for traveling like that.
- [20:10]
A
Give you like a Lysol wipe.
- [20:11]
B
They did like that same 60 years ago. Right. But like, when you're on a plane and you want to get off and you're tired, it's the least enjoyable experience. Standing crouching under things like they should. Somebody should invest in getting off the plane in a way that makes you feel like this place was exceptional.
- [20:28]
A
Yeah, Right.
- [20:29]
B
There's nothing. You just linger with this. Oh, my God, that was a pain in the butt to get off. And you're, you know, investing in those types of things makes a big difference.
- [20:36]
A
I agree. I do think, though, an airline worth shouting out is United. They, like, I'm super impressed with. You can tell that they had, like a strategic consultant come in and analyze the different steps, the travel journey. I was so impressed with the way that United operated from beginning to end. And before I think we dig into the United further, it's really important when we're talking about experience that you understand that. That the experience to your brand is every touch point of the brand. So if you're a service provider, unfortunately, it is until the service ends. Which really sucks for professions like a doctor or like a surgeon. Right. Like, the experience extends until when the case is over. And that's much longer than just an E. Com dropship website. So. But if you are an E. Comm dropship website, the experience and flow of your website matters a hell of a lot. And if you're not investing everything into making the best experience from your website, you will not win.
- [21:46]
B
And this is where I think our range helps. Because from my perspective, having done medical malpractice lawsuits in the past. Right. When it comes to experience, surgeons are like, I'm a genius. I went to school. I just did heart surgery. I don't have to answer to anybody. Right. Be thankful. But they found that the surgeons that actually came to the patient when they were waking up or recovering and said, hey, how you doing? And like, touched and talked to them. And the fascinating statistic is if they said to them, hey, I made a mistake and I nicked the wrong artery here, we had to kind of extend this a little farther and do this because I'm really sorry, like, this happens rarely, but I couldn't avoid it. But that conversation reduced lawsuits by 90%.
- [22:32]
A
Wow.
- [22:33]
B
Right. Because that's. They got the experience of the person at the end. But usually the surgeon's like, I'm busy, I gotta go to a new one. And then. But that. The cost of the litigation is astronomical. But if they just come. And so as a business owner calling a client. You know what I mean, like talking to them, even if there's a mistake, calling them personally and just being real with them, like it's not on a balance sheet, but it moves you towards success.
- [22:58]
A
Yeah. And that's where, like when, like the, when you look at your experience, you have to look at it holistically. Like we talk about a brand being a symphony, you know, and when you, when you, when you listen to a symphony, this is your metaphor. When you listen to a symphony, you're just hopefully captured by greatness. You don't, you don't hear all of the individual parts. Like you show up for the whole. Right. And when you don't care about how good the violinist is, like, there's no role for them here. It's about how the sound, the aesthetic, the vibe of the space work together.
- [23:36]
B
Yeah. And this is where the CEO and the right CMO or the right strategy consultant helps because you kind of architect this strategy. So in a symphony, most people don't know how important a conductor is.
- [23:49]
A
Yeah.
- [23:50]
B
Right. They just think it's all. But the conductor puts all the parts together, creates time and tempo. There might be a solo for a violin that works for the piece and there often is.
- [24:00]
A
Right. But you're not there for the violin. Right. Like, and the violin is like a great example of a standout piece for your brand. Like, maybe it is your logo, maybe it is your website, maybe it is your packaging, maybe it is an experiential part of your brand. But it's like you don't come for the violin, you come for the symphony and the conductor. Their role is to listen. Right. And to conduct all of the moving pieces. And that's what most people forget is like, you can't outsource your brand. Like, it's constantly something that you need to nurture, watch and direct because there's so many different moving pieces, but the audience is listening to the whole. And what I love about the symphony example is when we talk about those details that are difficult to quantify or to measure. There's relevant instruments in the symphony that work with that same metaphor. Like the viola is a perfect example. It's an instrument that plays the middle, kind of the middle harmonies or melodies between the violin and the Cello. And it's hard to hear the viola when you're just listening to the symphony. But without it, the symphony feels hollow, like it doesn't have that, that middle sound. And what makes a symphony fantastic is the layers, is the depth, is the build and the beauty of how sound.
- [25:27]
B
Can work together and the fine tuning of how to time them and overlap them. That's what a conductor does. And when it comes to your brand and your business, a CEO, and we're not saying you have to go too far in the weeds, but you have to understand how to orchestrate this business that you're building. In the military, we called it a synchronization table. And it's much like what a conductor does, is you need to synchronize the moving elements of your brand and business so that you get maximum effect at the time you need it to be. So it's like of the experiences, how do you coordinate the experiences? So when it's a buying time, they click yes, yes, or they leave with that response. And that's where the higher order thinking is required.
- [26:08]
A
Totally. I disagree. I actually want the business owners to be obsessive over it. That is the difference between good and great. And that's why I like to define the three levels of a brand. I think it's relevant to distinguish between categories through a superlative because the issues that we meet with business owners and brand owners are not weighted equally. So a brand is. You have a business, you may have a logo, you have a brand, but. But you have a far way to go before it's considered a good brand. And that can be one time. Like it takes time to develop a good brand, a brand with a reputation in market. It also can be because you're not focused on the details of what makes a brand good. So you don't have a website, you don't have socials, or you don't have an effective either or you're not constantly focusing on how your brand is being positioned in market. The second tier is a good brand and a good brand has range. Right. A good brand can be a brand that's going to be great, but just was launched last year. So it has all of the pieces to a good brand, but just doesn't have the time in market to grow, test and to build that tribe. Like it takes time for a bunch of people to unanimously agree that you are a fantastic brand. I've got an example on that in a second. But. Or a good brand is you've been in market for a long time, but you're not obsessed with the details and you're missing one of the four core pillars on it not being good, but it being great. And by not obsessing over it, you're just not good enough to be great. And we work with this is kind of, I think what a lot of the big businesses fall into is good brands can still make a lot of money, but they're not category leaders or they're not super well known. Like they're doing good sales within like a pocket. They're number five, they're number six, they're number eight, they're number nine. Like that's the good brand category. So there's top of the good brand and there's bottom of a good brand and then there's a great brand which is like the brand Mecca. This is like the top, at the top. This is the Olympics of brands. And that has to be categorized because you can't. A lot of, a lot of businesses try to compare themselves to a brand like Uber or a brand like Apple and they can't understand like you can never. We had a client that was in the same category as Chipotle and had less than eight years in market, was doing well financially, but nowhere near the numbers of what Chipotle brings in, in, in, in any, in any comparison other than the kind of food they served. You could not compare it to Chipotle. But they, they were crippled by their competitor being Chipotle. And Chipotle is not your competitor. Yeah, like you cannot be selling a phone and being like Apple is my competitor. Like you were, you are not even in the same race. So this is, so it's important to categorize between the three brands.
- [29:19]
B
It's almost like short term versus long term thinking like you gotta win the races that you qualify for. But too many, too often they're like they're spending money trying to win a race that they don't even qualify for. Like trying to copy what the big ones are doing rather than just leaning into making their brand amazing month after month. Right. And then eventually you'll get there. But if you try to rush there by saying, hey, we've raised some capital, we're going to do a, you know, a giant Google campaign or a Google that's not going to make your brand amazing. It might get some short term results, but it might affect your long term brand strategy.
- [29:57]
A
No, that's a great point. Like the, the, the reason why it's important to differentiate is that the good brand people like, their biggest problem is they're trying to do more of the same and it doesn't get you into a different category when you're just repeating what's not really working. And that's why I like having the three different categories because there's a lot of space for improvement. But there's also a massive spectrum within that good brand category for what you need to get to that upper echelon. And great branding, it's a meritocracy, right? Like yes, they have more money, but they also made the right decisions and understood the right asymmetric opportunities to take, take to get there.
- [30:41]
B
I just thought of a concept that I had been working on at one consulting project, the importance of micro wins. Right like, and even when talking with people, right, like eating healthy every day, you don't see the result tomorrow, you see it in six months, like working out every day. So the micro wins make a difference in the long run. Totally putting in the reps, but without good strategy. It reminds me of the analogy of this well oiled machine trying to cut a path through the forest where they're doing everything they need. They're getting the saws there, the gasoline, the workers they're cutting down. But then when somebody climbs a tree and looks, they're cutting a path in the wrong direction. So you need the strategy and then you need the execution of micro winds. But if you're doing everything right, but you're not going in the right direction, you're kind of wasting your micro winds.
- [31:29]
A
Well, and that even goes to kind of that the four quadrant system we talk about from Stephen Covey's the seven Habits of Highly Effective People is people want to rush success. They look at brands in a vacuum and they don't realize how long it took them to get to the point of greatness. And you can't rush greatness. And I love to use the analogy of like great brands are part of the brand Olympics. Like you can't get into the Olympics because I decided two years ago I loved golf. It's a lifetime commitment of doing the reps, of improving, of learning. Like you look at any brand that's considered great, where they started is not where they are today. And our concept of time is so warped because of how short our time on earth is that we don't look into where something is now and what it took to get there. And when you talk about like the, you know, the eating healthy every day and yeah, there's no magic pill, you can't be skinny next week. You have to start developing the habits to get to the outcome of what you want to get to. And it's the same thing in branding. You have to do the reps. And what most businesses miss is for that four quadrant concept. They're so focused on the day to day, the busy work, the stuff that's urgent, not important that it's filling their day. We all have the same amount of time every day. But if you're not spending the time in the deep thinking and focusing on how to improve your experience into creating something that's different, that's memorable, that separates you from the rest, you don't. You're not putting in the right reps and you're just constantly chasing like it to run your business operationally is, is not the difference maker. Like it's important, but everyone has to run, has to do the shit that makes a business ticket. It's like doing the brand shit.
- [33:23]
B
And the great businesses have to have the ability to intelligently course correct which comes into the quadrant of, you know, important, not urgent. It's like thinking, being able to take a look, are we going in the right direction? You know, are we victims of sunk cost fallacy? How many times we come up with people like, well, we've already spent, you know, this many hundreds of thousands on a social media strategy. We're like, no, no, this is, this is useless.
- [33:48]
A
You are burning cash and you're putting more cash into the cash barbecue. Like it's just because you've already, it's.
- [33:54]
B
But it's because you've already put money in it. So you keep doing it right and then the ability to course correct is where the CEO needs advisors who will help help her make the right decision so the brand survives and gets through to the next level. Because you always hit the ceiling as you're growing and you have to break through a new ceiling no matter where you are. And often it requires the deep thinking.
- [34:16]
A
No, it and it also just requires the thinking like it's what I think. Where I. Where most businesses get hung up is marketing becomes a monthly data review meeting where there's not much change thought or deep thinking strategy that's going into it. Like they may push back on some of the numbers so you feel good, like you're getting value out of that meeting, but it just becomes so repetitive and then you blink and three years has passed and you haven't grown. And it's because you're not obsessed with leaning into what makes your product great and enhancing that experience.
- [34:56]
B
I want to see if I can bring it back before we run out of time. But bring it back to toilet paper because the teepee, you know, like going to Japan and experiencing Toyo toilets, Toto, Toto toilets in Japan, it's like a life changing experience. Like when you look at what a North American toilet is.
- [35:19]
A
Yeah.
- [35:19]
B
It's like a model T car.
- [35:21]
A
Yeah.
- [35:21]
B
And then you have a toilet in every.
- [35:23]
A
Everywhere in Japan, literally the shittiest shithole has this like electric toilet that warms your butt.
- [35:28]
B
And like, and it's got, and it's got controls, but the experience it makes. But what I thinking is like, I think sometimes there's an arrogance of business owners is like, my product is so good, I don't really have to pay attention to the details. But like, if there's five high end restaurants and we're looking at going to five and five of those restaurants, if one has a toto toilet, like, and that lingers in you, like, it just has this disproportionate effect. And so if you spend this money on having a toto toilet in your business and it's a service business in a spa, for example. Right. Like, I think that would pay for itself.
- [36:06]
A
I see. I disagree.
- [36:07]
B
Okay.
- [36:09]
A
I think having a toto toilet shows a level of commitment to your brand experience that goes beyond just adding in a toto toilet. There's one restaurant before I had gone to Japan in Toronto called Harper 60 and it's one of, it's one of the nicer steakhouses, but there's lots of nice steakhouses in Toronto. And what I always love, so like the, the coup de grace of the Harbor 60 experience was that they had toto toilets. But they are also a restaurant that brings out like the finest, like huge piles of like the most delicious spreads and they bring out like three to four types of bread. It's one of those restaurants where you feel like even though it's expensive, they're giving you so much that you can justify the price point. Like the experience is so above and beyond. The toda toilet is a complement to how seriously they take their experience and what, and Japan, what makes it such a fascinating culture and an amazing country, is that they execute like they do not mess around on their execution. And it shows you that even at the lowest shop, at the smallest end, they still want to give you the best experience that they can give you. And that's respecting when you need to go to the washroom to make sure that that experience is pleasurable, enjoyable and clean. And so where I'm going with this is I don't want someone to listen to this and just be like, toilet, toilets is the solution to my branding problem. It's being so obsessed with your branding experience that you even justify the quality of your toilet. Because that's the difference between having raving fans because they just. Harbor 60 has no idea that. That that was one of the nicest restaurants I had gone to when I was younger. And it became. But I had gone to lots of nice restaurants at that point, but that one stuck out as, like, this is like luxury living because of the toilet.
- [38:13]
B
Yeah. And it's a $4,000 toilet versus a $600 toilet. But the experience in terms of burning into your brain that this is someone.
- [38:22]
A
Worth going to on a Friday night. And that's what every business is faced with. Even Barry's. Like, there is how many workout spots downtown Toronto. Like, but, like, every Saturday, it is our treat. Like, we're like, let's go to Barry's. Because we get. We. I don't even blow my hair. Blow dry my hair there. But, like, I have the option to. And if I'm going to. It's at, like, it's at the highest level. And that's like, that's the difference is that it's just you have to make people feel special. It's about your customer. Make them feel like your business and brand is an experience and a treat.
- [38:53]
B
Y Amazing podcast.
- [38:56]
A
Thanks for coming.
- [38:57]
B
I think the next one we should do is kind of today we referenced, like, we said good to great so many times. We should kind of review the book good to great and then. And then apply it to the book.
- [39:07]
A
Yeah.
- [39:07]
B
To brands.
- [39:08]
A
Yeah. Okay. You're right.