← The Art of the Brand
The Art of the Brand
From Zero to 3.5 Million Followers: Nathan Chan on Building Foundr Into a Global Media Powerhouse
01:13:23
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- [00:00]
Camille
It doesn't make rational sense to try to figure out something on your own. If you are. If you are exposed to more information than ever before. Like, just look for the clues. Most people just, like, obsess over perfect and perfect doesn't exist. And then by the time you get it out, perfect, like you miss the boat, you miss the moment. Like timing not for length of time. What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand. Say it again now. What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand. So, Nathan, welcome to the art of the brand. It's so nice to have you here. What a. What a cool day it is for how much you've seen in E Comm and what you represent, for sharing the state of where E Comm is at. So thanks for joining.
- [00:47]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Pleasure to be here.
- [00:49]
Camille
Do you want to, like, intro yourself?
- [00:51]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, sure thing. So I'm the CEO and founder of a company called Founder without the E. If you're watching on video, you might see these awesome, awesome, awesome front covers where. Yeah, basically we're an entrepreneurial platform really focused on E commerce. We help E commerce founders start and grow businesses through our media company, through our online course platform, Founder plus and membership, or through our coaching program or through our content. Like, we're really, really working super hard to help accelerate people's growth and future through entrepreneurship. I started the business about 10 years ago, had no idea what I was doing, but I was curious about entrepreneurship. I was curious on how people with no skills or experience was starting online businesses and selling products or services from around the world and. And doing these incredible things. And I started his stories like entrepreneurship. Right now, Camille is the new cool. Ten years ago, it was nowhere near as cool. It was still cool, but nowhere near as like, a status play. Like having a personal brand. It's a bit of a status play now. Like, it adds to your status, right? And, you know, when I started founder, it wasn't like that. Like, when I started Founder, I was interviewing people because I didn't have any money to pay. Like, I'm not naturally an interviewer. So like, so I was interviewing people for this magazine. So we started as a magazine and then we ended up, you know, building a membership and all these other things. But we're really trying to build one of the largest entrepreneurial brands in the world that really help support people start and grow business. So that's. That's me, that's founder. It's been a crazy, wild journey this past decade.
- [02:45]
Camille
And what did, what were the markers that you saw coming? Because, because e com 10 years ago, like where was shopify even at 10 years ago? Like what was the state of E Comm then?
- [02:56]
Nathan Chan
So, so Shopify 10 years ago Tim Ferriss was an investor and an advisor and they launched something like they were getting going and like because they've been around for 15 years and. Okay, interesting. Yeah, yeah. And they were, they were launching something called the Shopify Builder business competition like that. So they were, and they were really focused on helping people start. Now they're more kind of mid market enterprise and helping people start. But like yeah, weren't, weren't listed. So the E commerce space, it was still pretty hard to like get up and going in terms of building a website. Shopify was around but like it wasn't as easy and just people just didn't, people weren't as social purchasing products and services on social. Like when I started the founder Instagram. Listen to this Camille. When I started the found Instagram so I just left my job. I was, I started founder on the side as a passion hobby project. I was taking the magazine to job interviews like the digital magazine. Like this is how much I didn't think it would go anywhere. And it was, it wasn't about like so much building a massive business. It just kind of grew. But yeah, I, I, I remember I just finished my full time job, it was about 14 months and I went all in on founder. I left my day job and I had a friend who ran a company called Coconut Bowls. He was on Shark Tank Australia. Did really, really well. Sold the business now. And I said oh, what's this Instagram thing about? Like you know, it does it, would it work for me? And he's like oh no, it only works for e commerce businesses. You've got a digital product, you know, even though you sell products online, they're digital, it wouldn't work. And that's how I got into Instagram. And in the first year of being on Instagram I grew our account to half a million followers.
- [04:50]
Camille
Wow.
- [04:51]
Nathan Chan
Kind of crazy. Kind of crazy. So yeah, the landscape has changed a lot. Things have changed a lot. People, you know, influencer marketing was not so much a thing and if it was, it was a, you give the, you give a product or you, you get a cert. Like you get an influencer to shout you out and you expect X amount of dollars. Right? Like and, and the reach, you know, like it was crazy. Some of the things you could do with the reach. But Then now it's. Now it's all about tick tock. So things cycle and change. You know, Facebook ads, it was much easier back then. It's got more competitive, it's got more sophisticated. Everything has got way more sophisticated, Camille. Right. Like, like it's not. And also the economy and, and you know, covert and lockdowns and stuff. Yeah, it's brought a lot of people into the space, but then you look at AI, so. So the playing field has evened, but everything's got a lot more sophisticated. But the technology and the tools have got easier to use. So you can still start a business today, but then you've got things like founder to help you, right? More than ever. So yeah, the industry has changed a lot, but it's kind of wild. Looking back, I've never thought about that way.
- [06:11]
Camille
It's interesting. In some ways it's sneaky, like how it's gotten easier, but at the same rate that it's almost like we need to create a new law. Because at the rate that it's gotten easier, it's also allowed it to become more complicated and overwhelming, which creates a larger gap of, of misunderstanding and overwhelm. So it's, it's a really, it's a really interesting place because it feels so easy. But it's like it, it's not.
- [06:42]
Nathan Chan
No, like anything. Like one of my mentors who used to compete against Shopify, one of my old mentors, he started a company called Big Commerce. One of the richest people in Australia. They ended up listing it on the NASDAQ. He said to me, I just paid this guy $5,000 a month for one call. One call a month, $5,000 a month. One one hour call. And he said to me, you know, Nathan, it takes seven to 10 years to build anything of true worth and significance. So when you put that into the concept of brand, right? If you want to build a recognizable brand, a brand that, you know, has, has a decent, like, like a meaningful impact and, and is. Is worldwide. Like it takes seven to 10 years. And I think those rules still apply. However, through technology you can, you can get more cut through. But it. All of this stuff, all of it is a learning journey, right? It's all a learning journey. It depends your skills and experience as well.
- [07:41]
Camille
You know, it's so funny you say that. I had this call the other day with a friend who is starting a business, but not like a friend starting a business, like one that like, has put quite a lot of money into the business. And it'd be like Almost insulting if I didn't get a phone call to like chat through it because it's, it's really a legitimate business. And we were talking kind of, it's kind of that classic case of probably like a perfect founder potential client where they're really smart, they're very kind of like entrepreneurial driven. But this realm of like creative marketing and branding is really quite overwhelming. Like they kind of know where their expertise begins and ends. And we were kind of just kind of riffing through like different strategies and she brought up one of these brands and the brand is basically all like high fidelity photography, like no iPhone, no UGC. And I was saying how much harder it is to grow without that element of rawness because social media today doesn't prefer like high fidelity images only. And she basically pulled up this, like, told me to like, search up this brand as like, haha, like, I got you. Here's an account that's doing it. You're like, you know you're wrong. And it was funny because when I googled it, the brand is actually over 10 years old and they haven't scaled past 70,000 followers. So it's like there's two elements here. There's one of like, they really haven't grown and they've been at this for a really long time. So it's. So is your goal to be a brand like an array or one of these kind of these symbiotic, like these hot econ brands, or is it to have a very slow growth? And both are okay, but you can't have both at the same time.
- [09:27]
Nathan Chan
Right.
- [09:28]
Camille
And I think that's also an interesting element too. When you talk about time is it comes down to what you want, but time is always a factor to where it's going.
- [09:37]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, 100%. Right. Like, it takes time to build a brand. You know, like, we were looking, we're kind of in, you know, the tail end of doing a rebrand for founder. And we were looking at like, because I was, I was thinking a lot about our podcast and you know, I even asked you like, you know, I'm not so much a branding person. You sure you want me on the show? I have ran an e comm business, but I exited that and now I'm all in on founder. And I was thinking, you know, a problem that like, you know, I was thinking, oh, should I be honest? Like, some of the challenges we have as a brand and one of the challenges that we have and what we were looking to achieve with a rebrand is like, everyone thinks we're a magazine or they even think they're a mag. Like a lot of people think we're a magazine or they don't know what we truly do.
- [10:22]
Camille
Oh, interesting.
- [10:23]
Nathan Chan
And that's what we're trying to, to solve with this rebrand. And we went to, you know, an incredible branding agency, local boutique one here in Melbourne. Amazing next level. They're called Hunter. And we said, yeah, look, we, when we approached them, we're like, yeah, we want people to know that, that we, you know, create incredible programs, have an amazing community. We have this amazing product called Founder Plus. That's what we want to be known for and we want to change that perception. Simon said to us, he said, Nathan, like you've spent tens and tens of millions of dollars on paid advertising. All these things like, like, do you know how long it will take, like how big is your budget to like the amount of time that you've spent building this brand to then the time cost? Yeah, yeah. And he's like, honestly, you should just lean in to the fact that you guys start as a mate, a magazine that's the media arm of your business and just keeps telling stories, authentic stories of founders and people, people that are building these businesses through the power of the Internet. That's kind of where we're going to start to move to more like really authentic storytelling. And you know, a rebrand isn't just your design and a new logo. Right. It's, it's so much more than that.
- [11:39]
Camille
Yeah, but what you said too is so, is so deep and it's what gives me so much joy in what I do. What you provide for, for people is truly value. Like, it's, it's a, it's your, a value based business. And in my experience in working with you guys and seeing your product and what you provide to me is like, is the information that people are struggling with the most. And I think that's what makes branding so complicated is like, yes, there's a visual component, but so much of the brand is the fundamentals of why a business can be successful. Which I think that you cover kind of in your coaching because you're still, are you still involved in the coaching?
- [12:20]
Nathan Chan
A little bit, A little bit. That's really starting to grow out and we've got like, you know, 20 plus coaches, all six, seven, eight figure. But yeah, a little bit, A little bit. I do some calls. Yeah, once a month.
- [12:32]
Camille
And what are you like to dig into that? What are you kind of, what are the core, the core hang ups? So that people listening to this know that they're not alone and what they're struggling with.
- [12:45]
Nathan Chan
Yeah. So look, one of the big core hang ups is imposter syndrome. That, you know, being that, that, that fear of failure, that intimidation of other big brands, like, wow, how can I compete? How can I make my product better than that, like amazing brand? Like, it's so intimidating, right? Feeling worthy to create a product and feeling worthy that your product is something that people should purchase. And then the flip side of that is that, you know, perfectionism of wanting to get everything absolutely perfect because you worry about what other people think and then you don't want to fail. So there's a whole ton of things that go on in your mind when you're looking to start a business. And then there's the other flip side of it where we help people that have existing brands they want to grow. But it is so incredibly overwhelming with Facebook ads, social media, what kind of content do I create? What do I do with my website? Like, I do these influencer things. Like, like, oh, TikTok now. Like there are so many shiny objects and so much information around. You should be doing this, you should be doing that. And it's all situational, right? It is literally all situational. So those are kind of some of the things that are going through our members minds and how we try and help guide them throughout this entrepreneurial journey. And really it's about focus and it's about, you know, if you, if you've got a brand and you've got, you know, customers coming in every day, but you want to go faster, you. It's really about focusing on one or two channels and getting them really, really, really dialed in. And it actually, all the channels work, Camille. Right. It's not like somebody tries TikTok and it doesn't work. Like, and Tick tock doesn't work and it doesn't work for them, it all works. Facebook ads, it work, all these things work. It's around the execution. So so many times I think people are very quick to try something because they hear Gary Vee or someone talk about it or homo one of these people, right? And then they say it doesn't work and then they move to the next thing. Oftentimes it's the execution, it's the focus. It's even situational too. Right. Like, I'll never forget Gary Vee. He's not, he's not as popular as he used to be. Right. Like, I think, I think he's kind of not as nowhere near as in Vogue. And I love Gary, right? We, we've interviewed him. I've interviewed him a couple times, right. He even said, if I was looking to acquire an entrepreneurial brand, I'd look at a brand like founder. I got that on the podcast.
- [15:31]
Camille
Nice. What a moment.
- [15:33]
Nathan Chan
Yep, there you go. And we got a testimonial from Gary on the, on the founder website. It's a crazy story on the homepage. I can't talk about that, how it all happened. But anyways, Gary used to say that you, if you want to build an incredible community on social media, you should be responding to every single comment.
- [15:51]
Camille
Yeah.
- [15:52]
Nathan Chan
And I said to one of my mentors, I said, man, that's what Gary said I should do. And he's like, nathan, how many employees do you think Gary has compared to you at the time? He's like, how many employees do you have? I said, oh, 15. He's like, how many think Gary has? I'm like, 500. And he's like, okay, so Gary's earned the right to have the time to do things like that. He's like, you don't have the time to do that. So just because somebody says something, you should do it online doesn't mean you should actually do it either. So it comes down to your situation as well. Right? But you see these clips and you, you don't, you, you take these clips as like absolute, like the truth. Like, this is the thing, you know, and yeah, so, so all these channels work. It just takes time, it takes effort, it takes consistent iteration and that, you know, the build, measure, learn process. And you just keep going, keep going, keep going. I'm a big fan, I reckon one of the greatest hacks in the world. And it's a really big, I'd say ethos of the whole founder brand is one of the greatest hacks in the world, is finding somebody that's done it and just learning from them. Because you shortcut that learning process. Like, that's why we're so excited to have you teach an incredible program on the founder platform on, like, how to build an amazing brand with the E Commerce brand, right? How to build an amazing personal brand. Like, how do you get that cut through? So instead of trying to work it all out yourself, you've built an amazing brand yourself. You advise so many different clients how to do that. So why not learn from you? You know what I mean? Like, if you want to, if you want to build like a next level brand in the supplement space, find somebody that's already done it, right? And Learn from them instead of learning all the hard lessons. That's where you can shortcut. And that's how I like to approach life. That's how I like to approach business. If I want to go to the gym and get in, shave and get a six pack, I find somebody that's got a six pack and I, and I do everything they tell me and I'm consistent and I'm focused and there' ups and there'll be downs and there'll be tough times, but you get there. And if you want it bad enough and if it's, if it's already done in your mind, like if you have that level of ego and not that that's not a good thing. Like I've been caught out with my ego in the past. Like you've got to have, but you do have to have this sense of confidence that if you believe that you can do it, that's 50% of the battle. 1.
- [18:12]
Camille
Yeah, no, you're 100 correct. Like it's. I don't know why we vilify. It's actually. I've got a really funny story about this. So when I was in Ireland, I was recently on a trip to Ireland and I was speaking with, I got to golf at a really prestigious golf course and we became friends with the caddy and we went for a drink afterwards. The caddy. And we were basically having discussions with this caddy because he really should have a personal brand. Like he's been golfing at this golf course, it's like impossible to get into. And, and he said what's really interesting about like the Irish culture is that they, they really will put you down the moment that you have confidence. And they use this word called notions. You've got notions about yourself. You have these ideas about yourself. And because you have these ideas about yourself, you need to be kind of put back in your place because these notions are, they, they don't, they don't allow it. You think more than yourself, than what you are. But what I loved about this, about learning about that and just kind of seeing it from like a more macro how society treats you when you have these notions about yourself. But when you have notions, that's where you actually get somewhere. So you need to be prepared to be uncomfortable and have a plan, like to follow it. But like that period of uncomfortability is where is where greatness is made. Because like the trajectory isn't, isn't. It's not direct.
- [19:40]
Nathan Chan
No, no, no. It's a big part of it is mindset Camille. Unfortunately though, mindset isn't sexy and it doesn't sell, right? Like, I'll tell you something crazy. I'll tell you something crazy. Like, so we know. So you asked me the question, like, what is a common thing that a lot of people in our community face and where do we try and help them? So I know, like, it's a big mindset piece. Like we try and get so close to the customer and we're very, very passionate about building game changing product at founder. And we've really solidified our focus. Like, we're really, really focused. We only focus on two products now, Founder plus and our coaching program. And like a couple years ago I was like, okay, we know mindset's a problem for the Founder plus platform was before Founder plus existed, we just had many different single programs. I was like, let's get one of the coolest people that's just, you know, like, like a David Goggins, right? But I didn't want to get David Goggins because he's not a founder, is he? And so I found one of the coolest people. He founded a company called Spartan and in and it's this crazy race and then they acquired Tough Mudder. Like this guy's, this guy is like a founder and he's crazy and he's got an incredible mindset, right? Like I interviewed him during the peak of COVID where he had to let go. Like that's a big business. He had to let go of like 300 staff. And he was just like, he was just like totally cool about like this guy's got like, he's the coolest guy ever. His name's Joe Decina. So we did a program with him called Mental Toughness. Right? How do you, how do you like. Because it is tough. Building a business is so hard, right?
- [21:25]
Camille
And it sucks. It's not sexy.
- [21:27]
Nathan Chan
It's. It's the stuff that people don't talk about. And I thought, this guy's so cool, you know, maybe he can give some people some tools or even just a source of inspiration. We launched that program, worst selling program, worst like amount of enrollments in the history of founder. We had like, we had like, like a next level copywriter. This copywriter has made hundreds of millions of dollars selling with the written word. He's done $10 million promos, right? And he was like, it just, yeah, it's not sexy. It doesn't sell people.
- [22:09]
Camille
It doesn't seem like the easy hit. It doesn't seem like the, the quick hit lever Of. And that's what kills me too about this is like, the videos that do the best in my industry are like, how to get a million followers in six months. But like, another way of looking at that is you don't want that because it. You didn't earn it. Like, what makes a million followers cool is that your brand has gone through the learning period. It's built a community. People have really learned to love it. And that takes time. Like, you don't fall in love and ready to get married after the first date. And it's like, we're not using what the weight of this met with this metric is in context to what it actually matters. And like, when you're looking for shortcuts, you don't get it. But it's. It's why the. The mindset program. It's. No one is saying, if you've got a better mindset, you're gonna make a million dollars.
- [23:01]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, exactly. Right? So, yeah, that's just the. And more and more that is being, I guess, perpetuated because our attention spans are getting shorter. The angles and the hooks are getting crazier. And that's just. Yeah, that, that, that is what it is. And that's the game. That's the game you're in.
- [23:22]
Camille
It's the game. No, and it's. It's funny. It's like when I. Especially when I speak to people too, and they're. We talk about. To go back to your point on Gary Vee, I love Gary Vee. I love that Gary Vee makes me uncomfortable. I love that Gary Vee is blunt and very to the point, and he says the things that we're thinking as. As marketing experts or branding experts, but the things that we never felt empowered to think say. But where I think Gary V. What he does well is that it is also extreme. And because it's extreme, it also sets the bar over here. And when he's saying you should be posting three to five times per day to the average person that's a founder, that's running a business, that's wearing all the hats, that has the team, you can't do that. And then the question is, are you just posting shitty content or do you instead dial it back and do, okay, two posts per week, but really good like. And what I like about his message is it sets the bar to an extreme so that you can accept less. And like, that's the message I want them to take from it. It's like, okay, so if Gary Vee is saying you need to Post five times a day. Let's post three times a week with a story a day. Because we've now set the bar to like working out seven days a week. But if I tell you, you actually only have to work out two or three times a day because it takes a, a, it takes. Even when you're talking about before we started recording, like you're going to invest in your personal brand next year. Like there is a ramp up period to becoming a content creator.
- [24:52]
Nathan Chan
Like It's a job 100%. Like Camille, for me to be able to go all into my personal brand, which I want to do next year, I have to have like a, like a coo, which I'm going through the process right to, to run the day to day. Like, yeah, like it'll be a mini business for me. Like I'm taking this. I'm going to go all in. Like I'm just about to sign with a speaking agency. Like I'm going all in. Ye know, it's.
- [25:16]
Camille
No, it's all in. And like you, even the way that I, I mean I'm not at, I'm not at this, the stage that you're at. Like, even the way I look at it, like I'm posting every day, sometimes twice a day. I need to. Before it was like, you know, two days, every three weeks where I'd like be fully blocked out and I spoke to, I, you know, I got an interview like you did a bunch of people and like success leaves clues. So I was started finding I'm like, okay, so most these content creators have administrative days because when you're running a business, it can't ever get done. And like you can't. So Mondays, like I don't take meetings and now Mondays I like plan content and I like do some research and I go through my iPhone photos, which I can never sit down and coordinate my iPhone photos. Like I'm taking meetings till 9pm the last thing I want to do is spend two hours in a black hole of like, is this good enough? For instance, Instagram. It's horrible and we don't talk about that.
- [26:12]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, yeah, no, look, building a business is not easy. And that's, that's once again why I think what the work that we're doing at Founder is so special because it's lonely as well. Especially if you're a solo founder.
- [26:28]
Camille
Oh my God, it's so lonely even if you're not. When you have a team, like, it's like you can't tell them you're struggling. You're like having a hard day. Like.
- [26:40]
Nathan Chan
People get scared.
- [26:42]
Camille
No, they're like, what the heck's wrong with you? Or even like, I find for me it's sometimes being like prepared to speak because like, sometimes the process is stream of consciousness, but that's also unfair to a growing team to just like as the founder spew the way you think versus how someone that's trying to take that direction things.
- [27:05]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, yeah. I'm probably on the other side where I just kind of just roll with it. Yeah, I'm not a pretend.
- [27:14]
Camille
You get to.
- [27:14]
Nathan Chan
Yeah.
- [27:15]
Camille
I think they call it Camille's like, even the way that I type in Slack. They're like, no, we get it now. We've learned a second language. But like, but we don't talk about how, how shitty it is. When you started the magazine, what was the interview that you got where you were like, I'm on to or something.
- [27:33]
Nathan Chan
So the first edition, no one would even get back to me. I didn't even have a successful person on the front cover. It was a stock image. I had no idea what I was doing. Absolutely. It's embarrassing. Like, like this is how bad. Like, so most people, when they want to start a business, they're like thinking, how can I do the cool stuff? Whatever. I like it. Like, I'm just having some fun here. I was trying to get a job in marketing. Like, that's, that's literally I was at ground zero or below ground zero. And in the first four months of starting, I got an interview with Richard Branson. And that's when I kind of was like, you know what? I'm on to something. But. But one of the best things that I did was I made it free because it was a digital magazine. Right. We did do some printing and played that, but. But realized it was not the business we're in. We're a digital only business. But I made it free. And that was the best thing I ever did because then I led with that interview. And it's really crazy as well. When I pitch Richard Branson's team, it started with a phone call. Who does that? Who pitches with a phone call?
- [28:44]
Camille
Nobody.
- [28:45]
Nathan Chan
Exactly. Exactly. So I pitch with a phone call. I trace down his head of pr. She doesn't work there anymore. Her name's Daisy. And I remember I was living in this shitty house. Camille, my rent, like, it was like a share house with my best mate. And we're paying maybe like $100 a week between the two of us. It was really cheap.
- [29:11]
Camille
It was a rundown Shows you like, how sketch it was.
- [29:14]
Nathan Chan
The floors were creaky, there was no heating. And I remember, like, making multiple calls, and I said to my housemate and his missus, I said, hey, can you guys keep it down? I'm trying to make a phone call. And I walk into my room and she actually picks up. Daisy picks up. I send multiple emails, made multiple phone calls, and I said, oh, hey, Daisy. My name's Nathan Chan from Key to Success magazine. There's another story there from Key to Success magazine. I'm calling about doing an interview with Sir Richard. Did you get my email? I've been trying to get in touch. And she said, oh, yeah, look, I'm so sorry, I've. I've been meaning to get back to you. She said, look, please understand. We get about 10 to 20 requests every single day like this. Give me a couple weeks to get back to you. I promise I will get back to you, but it'll take me a while. And she did, and the rest was kind of history. But that's when I kind of knew I was onto something. One of the best things that I did was make it free and lead with that, and that's what started to grow the brand. That was a really, really great strategy of not charging for your best thing, making it free, leading with value, and then using Richard Branson as an iconic founder to associate our brand with him. And that's how I've been able to build the brand. Like, if you really think about, you know, while we do have some challenges as a brand, like every brand does, and we've got some work to do, what's been able to build the perception and the reputation of the brand and the trust is the association with the amount of incredible founders that we've been able to interview. And you can see that some of them behind us. Right, so. So that's the thing that is, is, is if. If your audience is looking to build an incredible brand, you have to look at how can you. Who's. Who's the market leader or who are the thought leaders in your market or niche and how can you associate with. With them? Like, I interviewed the founder of WHOOP yesterday and the ambassadors that he has for that brand.
- [31:29]
Camille
Oh, my God. Next level, he.
- [31:31]
Nathan Chan
They just is an investor and an ambassador. Like, go to Ronaldo's Instagram profile. I don't know if he still is, but Linkin Bio is the most followed person in the world. Link in Bio is whoop. Right? So, like that, like that's. That's how you Build from my experience a brand that has an immense amount of trust and reputation. But there's also some other nuances too. Right. Like, I said that I pitched with the name Key to Success. So there's another story in that of itself where in the first four months of pitching, in the first four months of starting founder, I pitched Richard Branson, and I got an interview with him. And that was kind of when it. I was like, I'm on to something. But in the first three months of starting founder, I got some of the best business lessons and anxiety that you could ever imagine around running a business because I got an email from someone saying, hey, my name's so and so. I'm a lawyer. You might not know this, but you're being sued for trademark infringement by one of the biggest business magazines in the States. I'm really good friends with the judge. He mentored me. We got to move now. And I was like. And I just woke up, like, I was still in my day job, and I just, like, got up early, and as I would start to do get up early, look at my emails for founder at the, like, Kiddis at the time, and just, you know, whatever. I used to get excited. Isn't this crazy? I used to get excited getting emails when I first started Founder, like, but that's the journey.
- [33:06]
Camille
It's like, you don't know. You don't know what you're on to, but you just are excited for what's to come.
- [33:11]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I got this email, I was like, is this sophisticated spam? Like, what is this, like, a Nigerian prince problem? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's like, let's jump on the. In the mail talking about now. But the magazine is Success magazine. They had the trademark for the word success when trademark law was introduced in the 1900s.
- [33:37]
Camille
Wow.
- [33:38]
Nathan Chan
So they own the word success. And my magazine was called Key to Success. Yeah. But this is what. This is what cooked me. This is what got me. So I think for edition number three, we had Neil Patel. Great guy, the SEO man.
- [33:56]
Camille
Yeah.
- [33:56]
Nathan Chan
Great marketer. Right. He's been around a long time. Yeah, yeah. And we had a big photo of him and his head. And the branding was success. And then key to in the middle, and his head covered the key too. And the magazine, one thing I was good at, and this is once again, I learned from somebody in the early days, like App Store, SEO, that was a thing because it was a digital magazine. So I was ranking for Entrepreneur, Fast Company, Forbes, all the business magazines. So when you Typed in success, Key to success came up next. So they saw that magazine and they jumped on it straight away. And that and that. And so rightfully or wrongfully, I had to change the name. And so I changed the name to Founder.
- [34:42]
Camille
That's amazing.
- [34:43]
Nathan Chan
And there was the best blessing ever because it's a one word name. When you talk about branding, I love one words. Apple, Google, whoop, whoop, Uber. Like, I love one word and I love like under five letters too.
- [35:02]
Camille
Yeah, there's a whole science about it. Like it's better for our brains.
- [35:07]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, yeah. I don't know. But like, yeah. So like there's something there maybe some magic in that when you think about building a brand, like how can you. And look, the domain was taken. Founder.com like was taken. Right. And there's a whole nother story I can tell you about around that too, if you want to know. I paid 8 into it.
- [35:24]
Camille
Let's hear, let's hear. All right, so when does the interview, when does the host of Founder get interviewed? So I feel like this is a whole other submarket for the founder fans.
- [35:36]
Nathan Chan
So paid $80,000 for that domain, but couldn't afford it.
- [35:40]
Camille
But worth it. Worth it all the way.
- [35:42]
Nathan Chan
Yes, yes. But couldn't afford at the time. I bought it three, four years later after starting Founder. So what I did do was I was speaking to my friend Jake, the guy that got me onto Instagram.
- [35:54]
Camille
And you on Instagram told you not to join?
- [35:58]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, told me not to use it. Yeah. And then basically what was happening was I was like, I got to change the name. I came up with all these different names. And he, and I, I originally, because there's no founder, there's no brand. Founder with the correct spelling with the E. And I was like, oh, what about founder? And he's like, nah, dude, what you should do is remove the E. That'll be cool. Just like, you know, some other, other other things without the E. Right, yeah, you know, some other brands that the E. Right. So like anyways, so I did that and. And he's like, oh, the domain's taken. And I was like, oh, no, no, that's cool. I'll just get found a Mac. So I got found a Mac and then I was just kind of chipping away and about, you know, 12, 14 months later, I was literally just about to leave my day job and I get an email from this guy and he owns startups.com and he actually owns the domain. So he owns startups.com and he ACTUALLY owns the domain Of Founder, the one that I wanted.
- [37:04]
Camille
Oh, cool.
- [37:05]
Nathan Chan
And he actually wanted to acquire us, and it just wasn't the right time. Like, and it wasn't. It just wasn't anything like the. The brand. Like, Camille, the brand's making, like, five, six grand a month in magazine subscriptions. Like, it wasn't. It wasn't a thing. Right. And anyways, Will and IBM ended up becoming friends, and I convinced him to sell me the domain three or four years later. We met in Melbourne. He's from San Francisco, super successful guy. And I convinced him to sell me the domain for, I think, yeah, around $80,000, maybe more. Maybe eight.
- [37:39]
Camille
Yeah.
- [37:39]
Nathan Chan
And he. We did on a payment plan. And at the time, it was like, you could. The business grew, and I could afford it. But, yeah, that's founder. That's how I got the name. So it's a crazy story.
- [37:50]
Camille
That's awesome. How did you meet that guy?
- [37:53]
Nathan Chan
Mutual friends. Mutual friends.
- [37:56]
Camille
How did that come up? Like, I'm looking for this.
- [37:59]
Nathan Chan
Well, so he wanted to purchase Founder, and then obviously not a fit. And then a guy that I knew invested in a company that will acquired. And yeah, like, he came to Melbourne, did it. Like, I don't know why, but, yeah, we kept in touch, and I interviewed him for the podcast, the founder podcast.
- [38:22]
Camille
So you guys really did stay in touch. What a cool story.
- [38:25]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then there was another time he had another. Another business. I probably can't talk about that, but I was looking at acquiring that, and. Yeah, but we never got there, so. Yeah, so it's crazy the people you meet on the Internet, too.
- [38:39]
Camille
Oh, my God, the Internet is my favorite place. Yeah, I. I just. Every day I wake up, I'm like, what a. Like, what a great life. I'm so thankful to be alive. This is amazing because the people who are assessing you, like, they have no agenda. Like, it's just, you know, do you. Do you connect? Do you fit? Like, there's so much baggage that comes with your postal code or your zip code or, you know, who you were friends with in high school or, you know, what hockey team you were on. Like, there's so much like. Like, bullshit construction around, like, locale relationships the moment you open it up. Like, the Internet's a beautiful place because I've just met great friends, great, amazing opportunities, and, like, this whole concept of, like, starting a podcast has been incredible. I get to, like, talk to the most incredible people that I would never be able to until I have a podcast, you know what I mean? Like, it's amazing.
- [39:42]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, it's great for networking, to be honest. That's one area where like, once I go all in, I want to, I want to do a better job of like the people that I do connect with through. Throughout the years or through future coming years, I can, I can actually build better relationships. And not from a place of even, you know, to, to like gain, but like actually genuinely, like, I've connected. Like, it's. I sometimes feel bad like, because this, like, because I'm, I'm running founder, but then I have this little slot, like probably about three, four hour slot every week on a Friday morning where I do podcast interviews and sometimes it's free, like how we're speaking. And then sometimes I'm back to back and I might have an incredible interview where I really encourage somebody. I get them to open up, they pour their heart and soul and they are vulnerable and they, they tell the craziest stories. And then it's just like, oh, well, great to meet you, bye. And I never get to like actually build upon that connection and relationship that was being formed and you know, like. And so I feel bad that like, I don't do a good job of kind of, you know, next time, I mean, you know, New York or L A or San Francisco, here's all the people that I, you know, I need to do a better job at that for sure.
- [41:01]
Camille
I can't recommend it enough. I'm at a point now and I'm so much earlier on my journey than you are for what you've done, where I just get like such a joy of life that when I'm in a city, like, I can almost feel my dinners and my lunches, like with people I've met on the Internet. And it's so cool to be in these like, foreign places, but to like have friends and to have friends with people that are older or younger or different shapes and sizes and colors and creeds and. But there's such a, like, we're the same. We're the, like the same. Like this. We. We gel. It's so cool.
- [41:43]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of my closest. It's so funny. I have a, I have a best friend that I met online. Like, I've obviously best friends, best mate.
- [41:51]
Camille
But like, no, I have a few, few online besties.
- [41:53]
Nathan Chan
Okay. So I have one too. His name's Daniel. And he kind of was early in the game. So we started around the same time. And I never forget, I just cold outreached him. He had a really cool blog called Rich20something. And yeah, I, I just emailed him, I said, let's catch up. And he's like, what do you want to catch up about? And then I was like, man, like, you're in the same space. Like, you know, you, you, you know, you write content around entrepreneurship and business. Let's hang out. And we caught up and we became friends over time. And then, yeah, he was an instructor for us. But then, you know, I just come back from New York. He's moved to New York, and we hung out, we rode bikes around Central park, went to dispensary, you know, we smoked some weed. It was like so much fun. Yeah. Yeah. And it is like, and we're both saying, like, it's so crazy. Like we met online and like, it's just the best, you know, like, he's just a really cool guy.
- [42:49]
Camille
Yeah, it's so funny. I was the other day, I had a good friend of mine over from university and I haven't seen her in a few years. She'd moved to London, England and she'd come back and you know, it's one of those friendships where like, doesn't matter how much time has passed, like, nothing's changed, you know, like we're. You're together again and it's like, you know, just like, like we were together yesterday. We were kind of catching up on life and I actually had to like, kind of stop myself. And it was a bit like self deprecating. And I started laughing because she's like, yeah, like, who are you hanging out with? Like, what are you doing these days? And I'm like, I had to kind of break it to a real life friend that like, all of my friends are Internet friends. I, I just like, I couldn't even really form the words because it just feels so normal until I have to explain it to someone that really knew me before all of this. And she was so cool about it. She's like, no, like Camille. That makes perfect. It makes perfect sense. She's like, I totally get it. And. But it was such a weird moment to go through explaining it to somebody who's really. Just hasn't been around in that block. And it's also really crazy to explain some of those friends are people that she thinks are like big or notable people on the Internet. And it's so interesting when you like how small the world is once you start creating content.
- [44:13]
Nathan Chan
Yeah. 100. I think it really opens doors for networking. I think that's, that's really, really, really, really powerful. Yeah. Yeah. I. But look, it's funny, Camille. I never did this kind of stuff, like launching a podcast, building my personal brand. Like, that was all by mistake. Like, like I interviewed people for the magazine and we used to host the audios in the digital magazine and we didn't have a podcast and I was just locking them up in the magazine. And then my old head of marketing, Dave challenged me and he said, man, you should turn that into a podcast. And I'm like, dude, I've got people paying for magazine subscription and then they're listening to the audio. And I like, that's not. That doesn't feel right. And he's like, dude, launch the podcast and see if someone complains. No one complained. And that's how the podcast started. It started out of just repurposing and re spinning content to get as much legs as we could. And then I became the host inherently because it's like I was the only person.
- [45:20]
Camille
It was yours.
- [45:21]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was never like, hey, I'm going to build this personal brand. I'm going to do these interviews, I'm going to build this bike. I brand and by association, all of these things just kind of work themselves out along the way. And then I sit here and go, hey, this is like really cool strategy, you know, like it just kind of.
- [45:39]
Camille
Oh, it's the evolution of. No, that's what it goes back to your point on time. And that's where these are like the things I'm kind of piecing together right now too, because I feel the same way. Like this I laugh again self deprecatingly like, you know, this is a podcast because I started and created content on TikTok. It started doing well. I started realizing that like, you know, I needed to get better hooks. And I found I spoken hooks opposed to like forcing the hook because I didn't have as much time to like prep my content. So we'd film like 10 minutes and then we'd get the like one minute clip. And then people started asking for like the long form. And then I was like, okay, but they started asking for the podcast, like, where could they find the podcast? And I'm like, the podcast. And I'm like, okay, well here's the long form. And then I was like, well, how? I mean, let me interview a friend that's a big influencer. And then they were like, we love the podcast. Who else are you bringing on? I'm like, okay. It was crazy, like how many the who, like, who responded. And it's. But that's to go Back to that point on, like, time. Like, that's what makes time actually so cool because it's like, it's actually about the climb, you know, like, it's about the journey. I actually listened to the Miley Cyrus song like three times on repeat yesterday. I'm like, this just. This, like, really hits. This is really a moment right now. I feel like we need to like, have like, Celine Dion redo this so that people respect it more. But, like, this is a really good song.
- [47:09]
Nathan Chan
Maybe you need to put it over one your pieces of content, one of your videos. Maybe I. Yeah, maybe.
- [47:18]
Camille
Yeah, maybe I'm doing a speech in Detroit. I was like, maybe playing around. I'm like. But I don't know if it's the audience, you know, to do like Miley Cyrus. Like, I got to figure it out.
- [47:28]
Nathan Chan
But vibes.
- [47:30]
Camille
But to go back to your magazine stuff, tell me a. An interview that you really learned something or changed you. Is there like one you always go back to, like a good reference one?
- [47:43]
Nathan Chan
Yeah. So this is a common question I get, but I like your spin on it, to be honest, because I. 1 so to be honest, Camille, I interview so many people have done for so long.
- [47:53]
Camille
It's like blurred together.
- [47:55]
Nathan Chan
It's blurred together and it's. I don't know, I have this brain, like movies or TV series where I just forget them. Like, it's really bad. It's really. It's really bad. So, like, I could watch Breaking Bad again and I'm. And like, it'll be like I'm watching like 80 of it. It'll be like, brand new to me. So a lot of the interviews, it's hard to kind of like people always ask, oh, what's your best piece of advice? You've learned from interviewing, you know, over a hundred billionaires or whatever it is. Right. Like, it's. And, and so for me, your question around. What do I keep coming back to? There's one, and I don't know why, but I interviewed the founder of a company called Zero. Have you heard of Zero the shoes? No. X E R O X E R O. It's an accounting software.
- [48:43]
Camille
Oh. I have heard of this, but I really was not thinking that that was going to be the one. Interesting.
- [48:49]
Nathan Chan
Yeah. Yes. I interviewed the founder of Zero. His name's Rod Jewelry. That. That's a multi, multi billion dollar software company.
- [48:57]
Camille
I believe it. There's also Zero Shoes, though. And they're like. They mimic bare feet. Ness back to the boring accounting software.
- [49:05]
Nathan Chan
So he, he. I said to him, what's your number one thing that you think is so critical to get where you are today? And he said to me, speed, speed. How can I do it faster? I'm the most impatient person you've ever met. Speed, speed, speed, speed, speed, specific. And for whatever reason that always comes back to me. I don't know why. And it's kind of like I'm a very impatient person, Camille, and I've had to learn to practice patience. But then with certain things, if I know we can get it done faster, I just want to go and I, and, and I, I know it feels uncomfortable to push the founder team or, you know, someone I'm working with, but I just always want to go faster. And that is something that has changed me, that has shaped how I view motion and business and how we move. I love speed, like, and I'm very, very impatient. I am patient, but impatient when it comes to certain things and execution. And it's hurt us as well. Right. Like sometimes execution is just not where it needs to be. And it's because honestly, Nathan wants it out yesterday and we just rush it and the win is it gets out. And so it's a fine balance. So it has shaped me. I don't know why it always comes back to me.
- [50:36]
Camille
It's interesting. I think it was Seth Godin that talks about like a send date, like that's a, that's a skill that you have because most people just like obsess over perfect and perfect doesn't exist. And then by the time, time you get it out perfect, like you miss the boat, you miss the moment. Like timing not for length of time, but is also so important in the digital world. He talks about how you just have to have a Sunday and really like you have to work towards that Sunday but like it's going out on that day and like that's kind of the, and that, that just comes down to like the caliber of the team and where it's at. But like you, it needs to be good enough to get out because it's going out.
- [51:12]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, I agree. I got a great, he's massive on shipping. I got a great Seth Godin story if you want to hear it.
- [51:19]
Camille
Yeah.
- [51:20]
Nathan Chan
Early Days founder, I had a falling out with my housemate and so I ended up moving back home to my parents place and I lived in their basement for a little bit just to kind of tide me over to then move out again on my own. So I wanted to interview Seth. It's known that he responds to emails and is very responsive and responds to every email. And I sent him a pitch. I went to bed at like 12am, randomly woke up, don't know why, at 6:30am Checked your email. He said checking emails and he said I'm free in like half an hour. And I jumped on it, said, let's go. And I did the interview with him that fast and it was amazing because this guy's one of my heroes. And then I ended up meeting him in New York. When I first went to New York a long, long time ago, it was a really, really cool catch up. And he's well known. Like we were at a coffee shop and a lot of people like, are you Seth Godin? And like he's like, yes, I am. He was a great guy.
- [52:32]
Camille
Understands a personal brand. Right? Like his iconic glasses, like his, the yellows he wears. Like he knows how to brand.
- [52:40]
Nathan Chan
Yeah. 100. His cover is still one of my favorites. Where we had him basically upside down. Yeah, it's really cool. But yeah, I thought that was so cool. Like one, that he responds to every single email. He's just such a good guy. And then two, that like, yeah, it was just so wild. Like I just kind of like, you know, I just kind of winged it. Like I was so nervous too, Camille. Like this is still early days founder. Like, like I used to be so nervous doing some of these interviews. Like I'd be freaking out and like you could lucky. Yeah. Yeah. But then once, once it starts, then it's just like, it's like this state of, of like flow and you just forget. If you really connect with somebody and especially if it's a guest that you can just kind of let your shoulders down and you just kind of be free and then you can have that genuine curiosity and if you know their work really well, then they, there's this kind of like understanding and a vibe that they respect you, you respect them and then they actually are more thoughtful and they're not just kind of like going with their standard stuff and they're actually giving thoughtful answers and like you can really get people to open up and it's so awesome. Right? Like I've gone through phases where I didn't even want to be a podcast host. I didn't want to do the founder show. And yeah, and then I've gone through phases now where I'm really loving it again. But it's, it's been, yeah, it's been crazy.
- [54:04]
Camille
I believe it. What has been a disappointing interview I.
- [54:10]
Nathan Chan
Can'T name and shame. That's just, come on for professionalism. I'm not, I'm not gonna name and shame. I'm sorry, that's, that's a boundary I might be able to share. But no, not, not, not recorded. Definitely not.
- [54:27]
Camille
Well, that means that it was like really disappointing.
- [54:31]
Nathan Chan
Look, not every interview is great, right? And we keep trying to set the bar higher and higher and higher. A lot of it comes down to if like with super successful people, right? What happens is now person, especially now personal branding is a thing. They have a PR agency they have on retainer. They might not, the, the CEO founder or the founder might not even be that active in the business or the day to day and then they've got a PR and the agency and they've got from maybe the leadership team, hey, we need to put you out more or you need to get out more. And then the PR agency pitches us. You know, they're a well known founder, well known brand. They line up all these interviews for the founder and the founder doesn't really want to do it. The founder doesn't really enjoy it. The founder might not be media or PR trained and they don't want to be there. Yeah, right, like that. Yeah, you can tell. And, and no matter how hard I push and prod and trying to get them to open up and I might try and be vulnerable too like you know, it doesn't work or, or it's not a good interviewer. It's just a disappointing interview. But they're so impressive as a human of what they've been able to build or you know, it might be just one of those things where like it's, they haven't got, they haven't been prepped. I think prep is so one, the guest has to be in a good state of mind and that's why I want to move our show to being all in person. So even though I'm in Australia, I want to get to a space where I'm just running them always in person out of the States because.
- [56:03]
Camille
Are you moving?
- [56:04]
Nathan Chan
No, I'm not moving but kind of I'll work it so I can go, you know, once every few months to the States and yeah, have a studio, whatever office there and yeah, just run them. But long story short, that's why I think in person is, is stronger as well and, and from a strike hit rate you will get a better interview more times than not because somebody has to travel there, they have to be prepped. It's more serious, they're thinking about it. You can't beat the in person connection that you form. So there's something around that. So when I, when I, when I say to you like there has been some disappointing interviews, it's. It's also because of the prep or the medium or what is like those circumstance. It doesn't mean it's a reflection on the person as.
- [56:47]
Camille
No, no, no. I suspect that I guess maybe another way of asking it is where has there been something. Maybe this is also the line, but has there been someone where you really respected them? Like this was someone that was like a really big deal to you and their real life Persona versus their online one was a disappointment and you don't have to name names. Like.
- [57:13]
Nathan Chan
Yeah. Does this happen? To be honest with you, Camille, this happens more than not. This happens more than not. Yeah, yeah. The people that you see or the founders that you see online, that they have to start. Not all, but from my experience, some have like, they're just totally different. They, they, they really are.
- [57:32]
Camille
They have a Persona and a character.
- [57:34]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That has happened more times than not. I can tell you one person who was really, really just blown away by around how much of a great human they were in person and remote and was the exact same because I have that I have to actually have that comparison because I've interviewed that person two times. Love him or hate him? Tony Robbins. Tony Robbins, he's the real deal from my, from my interactions and experiences with him.
- [58:07]
Camille
Who hates Tony Robbins?
- [58:10]
Nathan Chan
Come on. Like, like people love him or hate him.
- [58:14]
Camille
Really?
- [58:14]
Nathan Chan
Yeah.
- [58:16]
Camille
Is it really polarizing?
- [58:18]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, some people don't like the self help kind of personal development, you know, like, like walk on fire. That's a bit much for, for a lot of people commit really.
- [58:29]
Camille
I've just, I mean I cannot but anything deeply respect the guy. Like he's put in the work. Like he's, he's someone that he can't be different because he's put in the work. Like he existed in a time where he saw so many people before the Internet allowed you to like expose it. He's someone that I like to go back to just to study his tone, tenor and speech pattern. Like how he speaks is so captivating. Like I try to study it because of how he like puts different weight on like the power of words. Like he's who I study is Tony Robbins.
- [59:12]
Nathan Chan
Well, there you go. Okay, well I hit a nerve there. So. Yeah, well he's the real deal. I interviewed him once remotely and yeah, it was early days. Founder was out of my parents basement. I was on a real run, real tear in the early days founder was growing really fast. And I woke up, I woke up in the middle of the night at 3am to do the interview and the power was out. And that was back in the day when everyone used Skype and his Skype name was like Mr. Happy or Mr. Wonderful or something. That was his Skype name. I still got him on Skype. And because you have to add somebody, you have to add somebody on Skype and then they have to accept you.
- [59:53]
Camille
Oh my gosh.
- [59:54]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then so, so I had to write to him and his team and say, I'm so sorry, I can't do this interview. I don't have power because there's no Internet. So they just had the power off at 3am and then I ended up, we ended up making it happen. I interviewed him remotely when he was in the Gold coast in Australia and he was fantastic. And then he launched a book. And that's a good way, like for anyone that wants to build a show, wants to get interviews with famous people or people, people that are thought leaders in your niche or market, one of the best things you can do is if they have a book coming out, they do a press like run, and they just go, go, go, go. And one of the ways to get in early is look at the Amazon coming soon list. So on Amazon, if you're working with a publisher, the publisher will basically submit to Amazon the book that's coming soon. So you can see all the books that are coming four, six months from now that are coming out. And if you, if you get in early, you can get in on the list, right, of, of being a person that you're interviewing.
- [61:00]
Camille
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [61:02]
Nathan Chan
So I interviewed Tony around Money Master the game, amazing book and interview him in person in New York. And really, really great guy, same person that showed up was totally fine with me canceling because I didn't have power. Then I interviewed him remotely and then met him, interviewed him in person, did an interview in person. And he was a great, incredible human, right.
- [61:26]
Camille
One of my favorite quotes is from him, which is success leaves clues. Like, I just, I love. Like when I heard that, I'm like that I just feel like is something I want to write on my tombstone. Like it's something that I've just learned so much over my. Like, just study from people who've done it. Which is what you talked about here. Like, don't. Like, it doesn't, it doesn't make rational sense to try to figure out something I your own. If you are if you are exposed to more information than ever before. Like just look for the clues.
- [61:58]
Nathan Chan
Yep, Yep, I agree 100%. I, I love that one.
- [62:01]
Camille
I have two more questions for you.
- [62:03]
Nathan Chan
Okay.
- [62:04]
Camille
The first question is when you were starting out and you went from 0 to 500,000. I know Instagram is a very different place today, but I like to look for principles, like principles that you can look to and learn from. What. What were you doing then that you feel like is. Is learnable or repeatable? What was your approach? What was your process?
- [62:31]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, so I've been reflecting on this because yeah, I want to get out of a lot of the day to day founder and really go all in on my personal brand next year and, and move towards more, less operational stuff. Not, not really my strength. Right. That's where I've learned to come to learn. And I want to get into like doing exactly what I did with Instagram for founder, but helping the team do it for TikTok and really mastering that channel and then also really mastering YouTube and just taking those things to the next level also for my personal brand. And I've been thinking a lot about how I would approach it and, and how it would work. And then I look back to like the Instagram days. What did I do? And, and have you ever heard of like how Mr. Beast like rapidly grew on YouTube? Like his origin story?
- [63:20]
Camille
No, tell me the origin story.
- [63:24]
Nathan Chan
So, you know, started humble beginnings, couldn't afford a camera, had like a shitty like, you know, camera like, or used his phone. I think he used to record videos on his phone, like his first videos. And as time went on, he met people at the same level as him but, but they were youtubers on the Internet that was super hungry to, to. They had same aspirations of him. So he formed. They had a little group, I don't know how many people are probably about five to 10 people where they just constantly battle growth, hacked the crap out of the YouTube algorithm and just were constantly sharing, what if I did this, I did this, I did this, I did this, I did this. And it was through that group that obviously he was the, the leader, but all of them now he said, and he doesn't say who, I can't remember who he. It's publicly you can find out who the people were, but they all have massive followings and it was because of that group that he was able to rise to fame. Now it's all these other reasons, but that was one of the.
- [64:25]
Camille
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [64:26]
Nathan Chan
The core things that he did and that's Actually, what I did with Instagram in the early days, so a lot of the strategies that I brought to the table and then I applied to the found Instagram, it was because I, I met a group of people online and we were all just helping each other out and they were all in the same niche or market. I was the only one that had, I guess, the foresight to build a brand. They all had these kind of like entrepreneurial meme pages, but they all have big followings and we all helped each other out and some of those people now are doing very, very well. We don't. We've all kind of lost touch. We all once met up in Vegas one time and party, of all places. Yeah, yeah, we were like a meet up. But I guess that was one thing. Like, so that was one big thing that I did. So if I was to approach growing an Instagram account, a social media account, or growing anything, how can I network and find a little squad of people that are as hungry as me? And we just help each other out. And I'm a. So that's why I'm a big, big fan of finding your people, finding your squad just like how, you know, Taylor Swift did in the early days, right? Carla, Cara Levine, Bella Hadid, all those guys. There's no mistake there. Kali Kloss, like, like, who is your squad in whatever it is you want to achieve or accomplish. And you can do it with multiple things, right? So, like we're really going all in on founder plus, I'm going to join a mastermind with people that run massive, massive, massive memberships. Big, even bigger than us, right? So, so that's, that's one thing. I love that idea. It's like find somebody that's already done it and learn from them. But then how can you find a group of people or squad? So that's, that's such a fundamental. But if I were to approach it again, there's other, you know, things that you could take away. Like one thing that, that I'm a big fan of, which I call the unicorn strategy, which still serves to this day. Whether I was doing it five years ago on Instagram or now, it's study people who are serving the same market as you. Once again, success leaves clues. And look at their most engaged or viewed content and study it because there's clues there why it was their most engaged or successful pieces of content. And don't copy it, do not copy it, but try and create something with that level of inspiration, right? And that's how you start to Build out your content pillars. Because at the end of the day, all of these social platforms, even 10 years from now, there will be another social platform like a tick tock that is a new entrant to the market. And this rule will still apply. Who's serving your target audience in a big way that is absolutely killing it. And look at their content, because success leaves clues, because it's a content game, right? You can do a massive following by just creating the best content out there for your target market. Like, seriously, that's. That's all it is, right? People are looking for these crazy hacks. I could tell you as well, another. So that's one fundamental. Another fundamental, Camille, is getting other people to share your content, right? Like, there is no doubt about it. The more people that repost your content and tag you and mention you in the caption, more people will see you and discover you and find you and follow you and, and find your brand. So I did that on steroids back in the day. That's how we got millions and millions. We don't do it anymore. We don't have to because we have a big enough base and our founder team creates great content that we naturally grow and we get anywhere between, you know, 200 to 500 to a thousand followers a day every day. Still, it still works, right? But those are some key fundamentals who, who are doing what you want to do and learn from them. And you can get that from a place like Founder plus, or you can, you know, put yourself out there and try and, you know, network. And then secondly, how can you create some content pillars based off the unicorn strategy? By studying who's serving your target audience and doing a great job. And then the third one is, how can you do collaborations and work with other people or get them to share your content in some way, shape or form? And that can come from a trade. It can come from like product for purchase, product for post, it can come from paying somebody, or it can come from collaborations. Like, there is a reason that when Drake drops a new album, he's got Travis Scott on there, he's got all these other famous artists. And then when that new album drops, all of these artists, you go to the Instagram, they're sharing it, right? They've worked it out, right? It's the same thing. It's music, it's content, right? So these fundamentals, these fundamentals will never change, right? How can you use the Mr. B strategy, how can you use the unicorn strategy? And how can you use the Drake strategy?
- [69:16]
Camille
What I, what I love about that point and that's where it is a. I'm not going to forget my second question though. It is a great wrap up point is that it's so funny in my capacity even how I work with brands and because I'm seeing into so many different brands. The, the questions I hear business owners ask could so simply be solved if they were masterminding like if they were finding their squads and their groups and it's. Entrepreneurialism is lonely but you shouldn't have to do it alone. Like you should be actively trying to find people to speak about and to like to, to basically just like learn from and to spitball off of so that even if you continue down the path of what you thought was a good idea, like at least you're now better informed.
- [70:09]
Nathan Chan
Yeah. 100%. It's, it's so powerful, it's so powerful to be surrounded by like minded people to meet people that are on the same journey as you and to, you know, to speak them when things aren't going right because your friends and family just don't understand. And they, and they, they do, but they don't. And they want to be there for you. But it's not the same.
- [70:28]
Camille
It's not. I actually find it to be quite weird that you know there's people who are really are, you're shocked that are supportive but it's also people really don't like you growing out outside of the box that they put you in.
- [70:42]
Nathan Chan
Yeah.
- [70:43]
Camille
And it. No I even find there's certain family that like they really struggle to get it and it's partially this, that notions concept and it's partially that like you're coming across as almost too confident because you're, you're excelling in a world or in a lane that they're not able to see and it's tough on that rise up when you're in those. When you're in your 20s and you're in your 30s because your aunts and your uncles and your grandparents or your parents like they, you're being so confident, you're being so definitive and they, they can't see where you're excelling to earn that.
- [71:17]
Nathan Chan
Yeah. 100%. It's. Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's a weird transition. Like I remember that happened to me. Right. Like a lot of my closest friends, I still have like a lot of my closest friends founders but I still have some really close friends I've known since I grew up. But you've got kind of two or multiple groups of friends. Now, that's what I found.
- [71:41]
Camille
Yeah. I think it's also different for girls. You know, I think that there's maybe there's a little slight different way in how we approach the friendships, and maybe not, but that's at least been my experience. My last question, Nathan, and I ask everybody that comes on the podcast this question. What is a brand to you?
- [72:00]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, I remember this one. So a brand to me is really a set of beliefs which are formed from a set of values. That's. That's what a brand to me is. It's a set of beliefs which are formed from values. And that's something that I learned from Steve Jobs. Now, please don't ask me what a founder's beliefs or values, because I can't. I can't tell you. It just inherently. It just inherently. I've kind of shaped the brand that way, and. And you kind of pick them up naturally.
- [72:34]
Camille
That's a perfect answer. Nathan, if anybody wants to follow you, find you the podcast Founder plus the magazine plug, where they can get all of the great things that you're doing.
- [72:51]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, just go to founder.com. yeah, just founder F O u n D R founder without the e.com. we'd love to help you on your journey however we can, whether it's through our content magazine, podcast, YouTube channel, or if you really want to learn from successful founders that have really done it, you want to start or grow an e commerce business. We'd love to go on that journey through Founder plus with you as well.
- [73:15]
Camille
Awesome. Thanks for coming on, Nathan.
- [73:17]
Nathan Chan
You're welcome. Thanks so much for having me.