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- [00:00]
A
Branding isn't creating new categories. It's diverging from existing ones.
- [00:05]
B
That's also. There's this, like, important kernel of an idea that I see a lot of especially, like, new brands making. They think they need to be, like, totally novel on every front. They need to be, like, completely new, find the white space. And, like, there's this, like, loose idea that, like, you have to, like. If you have a rudimentary understanding of, like, business or, like, innovation, you're just like, oh, you know, that succeeded because it was, like, the first in its category, and it was, like, the newest thing in the world. And, like, that's like Steve Jobs. You have to be, like, revolutionary. And it's like, hey, 9.9 out of 10 businesses are not revolutionary. They're not, like, terribly novel. They have just done, like, a couple of things different and, like, found success through doing those things different. I think that applies both in brand as well as distribution, as well as, like, all of these facets of their business.
- [00:48]
A
What a brand, what a brand, what a brand what a mighty good brand say it again now what a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand Ashwin. Welcome to Art of the Brand.
- [01:00]
B
Thank you. Thank you. I am happy to be here.
- [01:03]
A
I'm so excited to chat with you. I have. I have, like, such an agenda, and I have no agenda because I feel like there's just. There's such a shortage of people that are prepared to have a real conversation of where we're at in branding and marketing.
- [01:16]
B
Yes, yes. There are a handful, and I feel like you end up talking to a lot of them. And so I love the guests that you have on.
- [01:22]
A
No, it's like. It's like the. The. The pool is this big. I actually think that I should host a, like, round table of you, Orin, Rory Sutherland. And I'm trying to think of, like, who the other two or three names would be, but, like, what a conversation that would be.
- [01:38]
B
That would be great. I recently finished. What is it? Alchemy.
- [01:42]
A
Yes.
- [01:42]
B
It's somewhere on my desk. Yeah. One of, like, the better books I've, like, read in this space, you know. It's fantastic. I really like him.
- [01:52]
A
I actually had to read it probably at this point. I've read it twice, and I've listened to it two or three times because even I feel so. When I'm being so in, I'm like. I even feel like it's. It's. It's. It's actually too good. Like, it actually is, like, it's 40 or 50 years in an industry where most people reading it, like, aren't at the point in their career where they can really even get what he's saying. Like, it's even. I have to listen to something a few times over, and I'm like, wow. Like, it's so weirdly profound over simple things that he's observed, but it's so deep in order for him to be able to explain it, because it just takes such an understanding of human psychology to be able to, like, express it so simply.
- [02:35]
B
Yes. Yes. I think he does a fantastic job at that. And there are some books that are not really meant to be read as books, but, like, meant to be, like, studied and, like, really sit with those ideas. And I think that is one of those books. And it's like, I always measure how good a book is for me just by, like, the number of, like, dog years that I have in it. And that book has, like, probably the most.
- [02:58]
A
It's like, every page, you're like, oh, my gosh, this is on wine as a branding ceremony. You're so right. Okay, this is really funny. So I'm. I'm. I'm going for dinner with him at the end of the month, and I had bought for him. I'm sorry. So excited. I'm really hoping I can get a photo. So I bought from him, you know, Alice in Wonderland, the caterpillar that, like, that smokes.
- [03:19]
B
Yes.
- [03:19]
A
To me, he is a living version of the smoking caterpillar because he was just vaping the whole time while we were chatting, and he was, like, literally spit. Like it was fire. Like, he was spitting facts, just, like, hitting his vape. And I'm like. I feel like this is my. This is my wise caterpillar moment. So I actually ordered this, like, custom caterpillar from Alice in Wonderland that's, like, smoke and a hookah. And I'm going to present it to him in person, and I really hope he appreciates the sentiment because it could go either way. I don't like that.
- [03:49]
B
No, I think he's gonna love that.
- [03:50]
A
But I just felt like he is so that wise. That wise smoking caterpillar.
- [03:56]
B
Yes. We need more of those. We need more people like him from.
- [04:00]
A
Like, this old, like, the last bastion. Another person, too, is Bill Schley. I'll send you his book on microscripts. He worked for Ted Bates, the guy who Don Draper was based off of. So, like, one of, like, the. The golden men of the ad age. And he was kind of trained and forged in that environment. So he's got a really interesting approach to messaging. It was another book that I, I feel like I keep reading and I can't almost read it enough. Like it's, it's almost like a branding bible where you kind of just like have to keep and be like, ah, okay, I can apply that to this problem in my life. It like, right. What? Branding books, before we get into it, have really changed your. Your approach.
- [04:43]
B
I just have stuff on my desk, so. 22 immutable laws.
- [04:47]
A
Kate, you gotta read their other one. Origin of Branding by Laura Rice and her father, Ed Rice. I think it is.
- [04:52]
B
Oh yes, yes. Al and Laura rice. Yes. There's 22 immutable laws of branding. 22 immutable laws of marketing. I think they have a few other ones.
- [05:00]
A
I think the Origin of Branding. Fascinating. They take the Darwin approach and interesting. Basically it's like in order, like branding isn't creating new categories, it's diverging from existing ones. It's a fascinating concept. It's one of those where like it could be a TED Talk. Like if you read the first three chapters, your, your G to G. But when you read the whole book you're like, ah, Southwest did this. This like it's really so. Sorry.
- [05:27]
B
Yes. Okay, this is really interesting. I need to go and read that. But I think this is like, that's also. There's this like important kernel of an idea that I see a lot of especially like new brands making. They think they need to be like totally novel on every front. They need to be like completely new, find the white space. And like there's this like loose idea that like, you have to like, if you have a rudimentary understanding of like business or like innovation, you're just like, oh, you know, that succeeded because it was like the first in its category and it was like the newest thing in the world. And like that's like Steve Jobs. You have to be like revolutionary. And it's like, hey, 9.9 out of 10 businesses are not revolutionary. They're not terribly novel. They have just done like a couple of things different and like found success through doing those things different. I think that applies both in brand as well as distribution as well as like all of these facets of their business.
- [06:17]
A
And that's what this book talks about. It's like it's novelty is diverging from a category that's proven that's novel. It's like when you're creating a brand new category and concept, it's actually harder to get adoption. They talk about even in the, in the book, like the first car, the first. It wasn't Ford in the first, but it's once the, once the category was created, the one that diverged and did the best version in that novel concept is what wins. So it's. As long as you're focused on divergence and not like it. You didn't. That's why they use the Darwin's Origin of Species, because it's like it. We didn't just pop out at a monkey, you know, like it, it, it, it used evolution in order to get to whatever, whatever branch of monkey or dog we're talking about. So it's a, it's fascinating concept.
- [07:05]
B
Yes, that is, that is, that is fascinating. I think we could go on like endlessly about that and just like, why certain ideas, like, are ahead of their time truly. Like they could exist in another time, you know, where like Google Glass, like, was kind of dead on arrival 10 years ago, but now if that came out, it's like you have the meta glasses coming out.
- [07:24]
A
It's diverging, not creating.
- [07:26]
B
Yeah, it's like diverging off of all of these other movements that are happening technologically where it like, kind of makes sense now and like the tech is there to kind of keep pace with it, even interesting.
- [07:36]
A
Before we do move on. When you brought up Steve Jobs, it's interesting to even challenge that because computers existed, phones even existed when they launched the iPhone. It's just he had a divergent concept of what a cell phone should be and what a home computer should be. So he was very novel and unique and there's tons to learn from him. But it wasn't. It's exactly your point. It wasn't a Google Glass. It was a better version of, of. They even talk about it in the book. And I don't want to butcher it, but it's something to the effect of like, like the personal computer was very, was very big, very clunky, very heavy. And there was like the personal kind of Palm Pilots. They diverged by coming together and coming up with more of a laptop concept that we have today that's more portable. So it was, it's novel in that there's. There hasn't been anything like that. But the idea of what it is exists within the hearts and minds of the consumers, that it's easier to adopt.
- [08:31]
B
100%. 100%. I mean, that's what the first iPhone was. Right. It was a BlackBerry without the keyboard taking up half. Half the screen. And what a great movie that was connects to that.
- [08:39]
A
What's that the BlackBerry movie was such a good, great movie.
- [08:42]
B
It was a fantastic movie. It was a fantastic movie. And it reminds me. So before working in like consumer, like, products and branding, I was working in consumer software. And there was like, there were so many. This was from like 2013 to 2018, like 2013. To set the context there, like Venmo was becoming really big. Snapchat had just launched becoming really big. Like Pinterest had this huge success and Exit Foursquare was this like, bigish business at the time. So in my world, I was living in New York. Everyone who was like graduating, we all wanted to go build like new consumer software. Social, like messaging, social, local mobile apps, whatever. And there were so many that just like failed to get any kind of traction. And like, one of the biggest, like, kind of like, like insights that was so obvious was written by this. There was this blog post written by Evan Williams, who was one of the co founders of Twitter. And he was just like, listen, I tell, like, I talk to so many consumer software people all of the time. Everyone's trying to do, like, reinvent the wheel and do all this like, new crazy shit all the time. And he's like, the cru of software. And I think this applies to products too, is like, people want to do the same that they've always done, just a little bit faster, a little bit easier. And so it's like you tap into those things, you make it a little bit faster and a little bit easier for them. And like, that's how you win. Whereas everyone is coming in and it's like, hey, we have this like, new app that allows you to like, like do like these 15 different things. And it's like, hey, people don't even do one of those things. Why do you think they want to, like, do all 15 within your app? And I think those lessons apply kind of across the board. Not to get too sidetracked here.
- [10:17]
A
No, but what you're bringing up is actually even interesting and it could be misinterpreted by doing. By doing one of the multiple things. Better, faster, more streamlined, is novel in terms of software. Right? Cause all, like, when you think about the category that we're talking about and where people misapply these concepts is like for like your cup brand or the cup you're drinking, that's not, that's not in any way novel or different than the Stanley cup. Right? So you can't. But. But what Stanley cup did that was novel is that they put a handle on a massive cup and they Put a straw on it and it hit the market at the right time going into Covid, et cetera. But that was a novel way that, that. But I guess what I'm trying to say is the, the novelty in, in software is not the same novelty that can be applied broad stroke, to products, like, to physical products. And you need to, when you're, when you're reading that book, the Origin of Species, which I highly recommend, you need to understand how it fits and applies to your industry, because that's half the art. Like, the art is like taking what, what you're learning from the strategy and figuring out where it applies and how it applies to. And if it applies to you. Because that's the other issue too is product brands think they're novel because they can come out in a hot new color. Like, that's not, that's not novel. And I also want to touch on that too with you in a bit because it's what you touched on in your video with the very demure, very. What was it? Very demure, very kind, very mindful. And the Brat girl summer, when you see like two, three weeks in and every single brand in your inbox is doing it, that's no longer approaching novelty.
- [11:54]
B
Yeah, yeah, 100%. We can talk quite a bit about that.
- [12:00]
A
We gotta move off of the origin species. But before we do, is there any other books that I don't cut you off of on Tangent? Because I would love to know what you read.
- [12:07]
B
Yes, other fundamental books. How Brands Grow, Breakthrough. I'm just looking at my bookshelf here. How Brands Grow, Breakthrough Advertising. Scientific advertising. Both Breakthrough Advertising and Scientific Advertising are really good, succinct, timeless books on the art of copywriting. They're written in like the 40s and 40s and 50s. And I have never found books that are like so dense with, with like, not like just the approach of how to think about messaging and positioning a product and a brand. And so much of it is not like, hey, here's how to like write a good sentence or anything like that. It's like, hey, 90% of the book is how to understand a consumer, how to understand the landscape, how to like, position relative to that consumer's understanding in that landscape. So if a category is created and there is awareness for, like, here's what a drinkable daily greens is. Okay, great. And you're coming into that market where there's already awareness. The way that you're going to position is to like a level four understanding that the market already has versus if you are Bringing Google Glass to life for the first time, you actually need to find like a much better analog through which to explain that product and message. That product. So it is a great, great book that I think anyone in marketing should read because I think the crux of good marketing is like good consumer insight and research, which translates into copywriting, which then translates into all of your different like media and channels.
- [13:34]
A
And that's what makes Rory Sutherland so fascinating is because he found the, he founded the whole institute of like studying human behavior and psychology which is, it goes hand in hand with marketing. But even to what you're saying, this is a concept I'm, I'm trying to find. The way to communicate it simply is that you need to create different pieces of content based on your funnel and where your consumer is in the funnel which aligns with what you're saying. Because when you're at the point of consideration and if you're like, if you have a novel product, you know, like an Oura Ring or like an AG one, like what you're like, there's, there's a different point of where your understanding is at, further down into the funnel where you're communicating at a different level than somewhere at the top of the funnel where it's a purely awareness, it's brand new, it's coming into market and understanding how the message needs to shape and change so that you can bring people further into the funnel. Because I just finally got an OURA ring. I've obviously heard about it for years but, but where I entered into at the awareness stage, getting to a conversion funnel is really interesting to analyze that level of randomness and what, what message points are needed in order to get that person to convert. And it actually was a naturopathic doctor and reading good energy that was like if you are a high functioning professional, it is negligent to not be ma like to be monitoring your sleep levels. Like you have to be on top of your bas health score. It's like your car engine. And wearing like a wearable like an Oura Ring or an Apple watch or a Fitbit is like it's mission critical for where technology is today that you should be aware of it. And I think that's coming with the longevity movement. So it was those points of messaging in the funnel that Oura Ring won't even be able to monitor or manage that got me to convert into their product and become an evangelist.
- [15:19]
B
That is probably like the most compelling. I don't wear an aura ring, but I am like very on top of like my health and my fitness and you just saying that word of like it is negligent for you to not have this.
- [15:32]
A
I'm ordering this call.
- [15:34]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm obviously super familiar with oura ring. Like my entire family is like our rings, Fitbits, all of that stuff. But I'm like, like what do I need my sleep score for? But now it's like.
- [15:44]
A
Good point.
- [15:45]
B
Okay, good point. Very interesting.
- [15:47]
A
No, I actually highly recommend that book. It's really coming into the zeitgeist. I don't know if you saw RFK Jr speech no matter where you are politically. It was. It's really fascinating seeing how the dialogue of the, this relationship of big food and Big Pharma and kind of where the US's health state of health is and the, the means siblings Cali and Casey, they're really kind of leading this message and her book is fantastic. It's. It's kind of, I would say it's like a, it's an executive or a high, like a, a high powered personal guide to kind of navigating a better life. It kind of goes hand in hand, I'd say a bit with like the outlive Peter Attia that's like had, you know, its moment. But her argument on it is I really highly recommend listening to it as like a break from the branding and business because when you, when I think about I live to operate at this level, I love it. I think there's good stress and there's bad stress but in order to maintain stress at a good level, like you have to be on top of your, of your metrics. So highly recommend it. I'll. I will send you that book also with microscripts. Beautiful figure eating on your way.
- [16:51]
B
Yes, would love to.
- [16:52]
A
So as our long lead into this, do you want to just give like a high level of your background and kind of what you do? I mean I see you as one of the top branding experts online, but I would love to know more about your story.
- [17:03]
B
Thank you. Expert is such a fraught, fraught word.
- [17:05]
A
For me and I'm so weird to live it.
- [17:08]
B
Yeah, yeah, stray away from it. But yeah, so, so kind of high level. So I guess whatever. I, I graduated in 2013. This was like undergrad. So 2013 to 2018, I'm working in consumer software. I'm doing UI UX design, I'm doing product management, but I'm doing all of this. So like first I had a startup of my own for like three years. We're kind of like Aqua hired by another like small consumer social startup. And in that kind of like five year period, I was doing design, but like we designed and like we built this product. And then there's this next question of, okay, you can have a really good product, but you need to figure out how you're going to distribute the product. And so this was like the first fundamental lesson. And there was always this notion, especially in tech, like, build it and they will come.
- [17:57]
A
Yeah.
- [17:57]
B
And that was like true in like the 90s and 2000s, like early aughts. And then it was like, well, everyone was building it and so now no one was coming because, like there was just too much noise in the space. And so you realize, hey, I don't just need to be like a good engineer or a good product designer, but like, I need to be really good and smart about marketing and distribution. And at that point I had no background in marketing, distribution or even like thinking about go to market. So I was like learning everything on the fly just by doing. And then finding books like the 22 immutable laws of Marketing and Branding. When you find a book like that and you are actually paired with a product or brand or business that your like, success depends on, like getting it out there, you study every word in every page and you put that into practice. It's like, shit, I need to, I finished this book, I finished this page. I need to go like rewrite our homepage. And like, before I rewrite it, I need to go show our existing homepage to 10 random people on the street. So then I'd like take out my laptop, go to coffee shops and I'd be like, hey, can I buy you a coffee? And just like, tell me what you think about this page. What is your understanding of our product? What doesn't make sense to you? You. And okay, now that I explained it to you, like, where do you see gaps here? And then I take those insights and be like, okay, this is how I'm going to rewrite the page. This is like the animations or illustrations that need to support it. And so it was very much learning by doing because I had to. And that was my kind of insight into the world of or that was my start into the world of like copywriting and marketing and positioning and like how important all of those pieces were. So 2013 to 2015 or 2013 to 2018, I was in the space consumer software. And it was, you know, myself and two partners. We were this really kind of good team of like design and engineering and kind of like understanding the customer and getting better at understanding the customer. And we wanted to continue building consumer software, but we didn't necessarily want to build like mobile apps that people weren't paying for, right. And like then you have to just build it to scale and then like sell ads against it. So we said, hey, we're going to start an agency, which is the agency that we operate today and we're basically going to build consumer software or like user facing software for other businesses. So we first started, we did this for Amazon for a little bit, then we did it for a digital bank. And a year and a half into our practice, I thought that was exactly what we're going to be doing. But a friend of ours came to us and he said, hey, do you guys do branding and brand strategy? I'm launching a candle brand and I need help with like everything from going from idea to launch. And we hadn't done any of that work, but we were interested in doing it. Like we were all just generally interested in design and branding and the whole world of it. We're like, okay, that's a new challenge, let's do it. We helped him launch his brand. That brand took off and he was pretty plugged into like this CPG space. 2019 and 2020 was like really hot and well funded too. So he sent, you know, a bunch of friends, his friends, our way. We helped them launch their brands and then we kind of work begets work. And so we're kind of solidified in that space of helping, you know, new consumer brands launch from brand strategy, brand design, digital design and development. And in doing all of these, I'm giving you a long introduction here.
- [21:08]
A
I'm loving it, I'm loving it.
- [21:09]
B
Many, many entry points in as a result of doing all these, taking these brands, idea to launch, idea to launch, idea to launch. I had ideas for brands that I wanted to launch too. So you know, in 2021, myself and a friend from school who is kind of in the venture space on the cannabis side, we launched this brand called Oklahoma Smokes, which name. Thank you, thank you. I was very proud of that one. Oklahoma Smokes for Tobacco Quitting folks. Possibly, possibly my favorite and finest work.
- [21:41]
A
That is your Mad Men moment.
- [21:43]
B
That was my madman moment. I'll tell you this other one we have. Kick the Habit, Keep the Ritual because it is a product. So it's a CBD cigarette and it was very much positioned to smokers who are looking to quit. But so much of trying to quit is like.
- [22:01]
A
The small conversation with the Employee people outside, like, you can't lose that.
- [22:05]
B
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And that's what so many smokers are afraid of losing. They're like, hey, that's my five minutes, like to leave this job that like, I don't like, or five minutes to like talk to my spouse or like talk to my friends or like having a drink outside of the bar. So it wasn't even so much the nicotine because they're like, I've tried the patches, I've tried the gums. It's not nicotine replacement that I need. It's like the, the entire like physical experience of like lighting something, smoking it, inhalation, so on. So we launched that brand in 2021 and we've, you know, kind of been growing that and still run that to date. And so that has been a fascinating kind of journey in terms of like, hey, it's not just going from idea to launch, but like launching and then growing in like a CPG category. And so we launched that brand in 2021 and then earlier this year we partnered with a couple of dermatologists to launch a skin health supplement.
- [23:01]
A
Very different smoking and skin.
- [23:03]
B
Very, very different spaces. But you know, when I kind of look at these opportunities, it's like, okay, who am I partnering with that is like really kind of like credible and interesting in the space and like, does the product solve a certain need? And like, okay, I'm going to come in and look at this from a brand positioning standpoint and a marketing standpoint and like just be like one lens of the business rather than like, hey, yeah, it doesn't make sense, me as Ashwin to launch a skin health supplement because like I'm not, that's not, that's not me. Right. But it's interesting to me from a, again like a branding and a marketing and a positioning standpoint. So I have the branding agency, I'm like an operator in a couple of brands and then I make content kind of as this like layer on top of all of it.
- [23:47]
A
Well, and that's like so funny to go back to the, the intro when you're like, ah, I shudder at being an expert. But like that's what a modern day expert is. Especially in a topic like branding and marketing. You're so dialed in when we had talked before, your Sundays are your admin days. Like you're so dialed in to what's going on. You're like, your content is not pre batched, like it's in the moment. Like you've got such a pulse and you've you've done the work, like, you have the range. So when it's, it's. We're in such a weird time in branding and marketing because who are the experts if not you? You know, like, if, like, who, who is it? You know, is it the people that are in house that have been there for 30, 40 years that don't really understand socials, that don't really understand digital? Is it the professors who are using textbooks that were written? Like, who are they?
- [24:30]
B
And yeah, it is, it is. I think, what is so important. And like, I've always had this kind of dialogue and people have been like, hey, like, do you do content full time? Or like, could you do content full time? It's like, I absolutely could do it full time. You know, like, there is totally a way to just like make this, this whole like, media thing. But to me, like, I am sharing insights that come from like the day to day practice of the work. And I'm like, if I'm not practicing it, like, what am I talking about? You know? And it's like, then I'm just a practitioner and I went to undergrad business school. And like half of why I hated business school, I was like, when was the last time any of you guys worked in this field, whether it was finance or marketing or accounting? And it's like we have these textbook that was written in 1999. We're talking about P&G's launch of Colgate 35 years ago and we're never once talking about Instagram. And it's 2014.
- [25:21]
A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
What are we doing?
- [25:23]
A
No, exactly, exactly. No way. That's. We're living case studies. And I also, that's why one of the things I really want you to touch on is the Nutter Butter phenomenon that's kind of blowing up. Because from my perspective, when I look at this, I mean, I'm sure there's so many opinions. Opinions are everywhere and we're in positions where, when you're consulting for these brands, they want that Nutter Butter moment. But, but it's understanding the terms in which they're able to do that. And two, what are benchmarks for success? You know, there's. Are they infamous, you know, or is it famous? And like, are we. Are. Do they have the sales to support it? So I want you to kind of lean into that. I don't want to, I don't want to. What is your opin? Give a breakdown. The Nutter Butter phenomenon. What's going on?
- [26:07]
B
Yes. So here's what Nutter Butter is doing Nutter Butter legacy brand. Been around since, like, 1950s. It's sold in every grocery store in America. We probably ate it when we're kids. We have this familiarity with the brand already. They, for the past year on their socials, have been making increasingly just, like, unhinged, like, acid trip content that, like, really doesn't tie back to nut or butter at all. They like, created some, like, fictitious, like, characters that are kind of, like, mysterious. It's like, super weird and, like, nonsensical and irrational and like, just overly, like, overly exposed, like, illustrated and like, animated graphics. And it's just like it's pure chaos. Right? And every video performs super well. Gets, like millions of views and what. So that is fine. Like, congrats to Nutter Butter. It is great that they have done this and, like, they found success with this and they found a way to get people to at least remember. Remember a name that, like, people haven't thought about ever actively, you know, because.
- [27:05]
A
It was like, like, when you're like Narbonne, we've known. I'm like, ish, you know, it's definitely not the Oreo. It's definitely not the, the peak frames. It's kind of like that, the, you know, the forgotten cousin that maybe is in the aisle couldn't tell you, you know, like. But it's got some remembrance. But you said it's work. Like, do you think it's working? Is that where a 6 million view count? Does it matter that we're still having a conversation about them? Like, I guess that's the question to unpack.
- [27:30]
B
Yeah. Here's what I think when I talk to brands and, like, I think every kind of, like, marketing organization at every company has had these cycles of conversations. And I'm sure a lot of social media marketers and managers have been frustrated by it. Where it was first, like, we need to replicate Duolingo or we need to have our Duolingo moment. We need to be like liquid death. We need to, like, have our Stanley moment now. It's like, we need to have our Nutter Butter moment. What Duolingo has done, what Stanley has, like, done in terms of, like, their virality, what Nutter Butter has done, have all been, like, wildly different strategies. And they have leaned into those strategies, like, fairly consistently in a way that has made sense for their brand. And to just copy that strategy and say, oh, we're a brand that does $40 million selling, like, I don't know, whatever this wine is. Okay, say we do $20 million. A year selling this wine. We're on retail shelves. We need to, like, go viral like that. Let's do the Nutter Butter strategy. It's like, no. Like, no one knows what your brand is, and so just purely going viral and getting these, like, very chaotic views, like, it's almost working because people know what Nutter Butter is, and, like, for them to show up in this way.
- [28:43]
A
Like, it doesn't work. Like, it. It doesn't connect. Have you seen the Quizno Quiznos Rats?
- [28:49]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. From, like, like the 2000s.
- [28:51]
A
I feel like it's the same agency that did the Quiznos Rats. Like, it's giving Quizno Rat vibes.
- [28:56]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that is, like, it works for some brands, right? If, like, IBM was to get on TikTok and, like, employ the Nutter Butter strategy, it's probably, like, gonna find some success. Like, you'll probably drive up a lot of views. I don't know what IBM is necessarily doing with those views or any engagement on TikTok, but that's where I wear.
- [29:15]
A
Where I have a deeper question. Because when I look at, like, everything that. What sucks about the Internet is that everybody has an opinion. And when people do things on the extreme and on the fringe, it. It. People start talking about it and it creates dialogue, which in theory, obviously, controversy is good, but nothing about what they're doing provides any interest, any uniqueness. It doesn't make me want to buy. It doesn't make me want to consume it. I'm talking about it, but I'm talking about it in a. That it's deprecating to the brand. It's almost like I'm laughing at them for doing it. And when I'm seeing the View count in the nines and tens of millions, if everybody is laughing at you, it's kind of like the. The. The idea of fame versus it's fame versus infamy. Like, it does. Infamy still does. The PR concept of all press is good press work for a product that's being sold off the shelves.
- [30:13]
B
If you're selling a product that is like. Like sugar and like, chocolate that people are familiar with and you sell in store, there is like, has Nutter Butter seen a lift in sales because of, like, all this media attention? Probably. There's probably people who are like, hey, I haven't thought about Nutter Butter in, like, a super long time, and now I'm in the store today, and it's like, all right, that seems like a good snack. Let me go buy it. Because we're not like selling on any like unique value prop for the brand. It's just like, it's a snack that is generally like not good for you. So it's like, all right, if, if your only goal is to just like get an immense amount of like media exposure to like get your name out there and people are going to buy the product anyway because it's like meets a certain like quality threshold, they find it like an enjoyable or like tasty snack. It's like, okay, sure, that's great. It'll probably last for some time. Is that a strategy that can necessarily like last indefinitely? Like a Coca Cola whole thing about like happiness and the holidays and your family and all that stuff that's been like a 40 year long campaign at this point. Can, can this work? No. But will they be like reactive and like get on the next thing maybe?
- [31:29]
A
And then that's like I guess kind of the question. I'm more posing even. You know, I don't know if this is even open like just philosophically. But like when you look, when you tie it to such a well done strategic campaign that Coca Cola has done, it's almost like the strategy is like on your brand so that it goes viral. Because people can't believe that you're, that you're doing a campaign that like, that lacks strategy. Like all of their graphics, they're all the same kind of chaos. But when you're looking at it, you're like, who's even doing this? Like how? Like this is clearly one designer. Like this isn't like a big team that can tack on and like are building something that's like on brand. So it, and what I guess frustrates me is when I think about how many good ideas we've put forward that don't get approved and this one gets, that's through. And obviously yes, it's working from a view count perspective. But think about all of the like interesting strategic campaigns that could be like, you know, the name on the Cokes or the holiday or like how Coke developed Santa Claus. Like think about what CPG products have done and then the new strategy is just like have no strategy. Create chaotic videos that make no sense and like you know it's gonna work. And like that's also I think frustrating from my perspective because like that's not, it's a strategy without it being a strategy because it's hard to replicate because it, cause it, it doesn't, it doesn't have like the legs of what connects to, to the values.
- [32:48]
B
Yeah. And I, I think there's a, a bigger question to ask and I have to like, speak to this one with like, just the nuance of like hyper specific to Nutter Butter. Like, I don't know what Nutter Butter's brand values are. Like, I don't know that they know what their brand values are.
- [33:04]
A
Like, point. Yeah.
- [33:05]
B
What are they? They just make this like the same set of snacks that they made for a really long time they sell in stores. Like, you get addicted to it and then like, maybe you just keep buying it. And so for a brand like them, did they even have anyone at like, did they have like massive marketing meetings where they were like, reviewing the TikTok strategy? No, they probably just handed it to one guy and they're like, we literally don't care because we've worked here for 20 years. Like, we don't care about TikTok. Like, the business is fine. We're like a subsidiary of like mondelez. Like, yeah, kid 22, you want to run the TikTok account, like, go wild, knock your socks off. You don't have to get any approval from us. And like, then it works. And then they're probably like, okay, like, that worked. And so like, kudos to whoever did it there at Nutter Butter and like executed on this and it's like, totally fine. But I don't know that there is like a lesson there to take from specifically what Nutter Butter has done and apply it to another brand and say, hey, this is now a trend. Like the younger generation that's on social media wants like absolutely unhinged, self deprecating this, that and the other type of content and like wholesale. Apply that to any brand in any category, which I think is a mistake that brands will do when they see like, oh, that works.
- [34:20]
A
That's a part of the chaos. It's like when these, these brands that are all spending so much money, trying so hard, working tirelessly to, to get ahead, to stay competitive, and then they see a brand like Nutter Butter, they're like, what do we even do with this? Like, how do we compete? Like, this is. And it, I mean, I think it's a part of the, the, the, the problem with all of this. Like, there's also a randomness to what works and that's what makes it, it's why you need strategy. Because, like, hope is not a strategy. And you can find individual things that work. And you know, we could try to break it down until the cows come home, but like, it's just, it's Hard. It's hard to figure out.
- [34:55]
B
Yes, I think, I think that's, I think that's an important point and I think like I, I kind of like push back on this idea of like, like a lot of brands will say hey, like the algorithm is like so random and we need to like test out a bunch of different stuff to like see what sticks. And that is almost like a recipe for like yeah, go crazy. Like do whatever, like do any trend, do any meme, do any of this, do any of that. And I'm like well there is stuff that like generally works right? Like formats of like how to structure a video and like how to like lead in with like certain hooks and like capture people's attention. There are ways to like get hyper specific and like set up a video to achieve a higher likelihood of like getting traction and good engagement. And that does not mean hey, if you do all these things your video will go viral. But there's a reason that like there are new creators who can like join these platforms that have like a really good understanding of like what things work. And like, like within like their first five, ten videos they're like okay, we're at this clip now where we're like putting up like 50,000 view videos with like really strong engagement because like there's like tenants of things that like tend to work.
- [36:09]
A
No, I mean 100. But like that's also the question too is like you pitch a strategy like the Nutter Butter one and like like that's a bold strategy to pitch. Like you have no idea if it's going to work. You have no idea. Even still like I'd love to figure out even what their benchmark is. It could be awesome to know they've had a 60% you know, know growth rate this like I would love to know what, what it even means because is, is success view counts either.
- [36:31]
B
Yeah, yes, absolutely. I think, listen, I think there's sometimes where like you things die in the strategy phase when it's like pitched because then you're asking like everything needs to be imbued with a sense of like rationality towards like the strategy and everyone has to be the same page on it, right? If you're pitching a client, it's like now I need to get buy in from 10 people to like go do this thing when the reality is like hey, actually like no eyes on this for some time and we need like two people making the videos who can like do these things and like then we'll come tell you like why this worked or why it didn't. But like let's not prematurely shut this down.
- [37:10]
A
No, that's what frustrates me the most is like I would just love to know the autonomy that this person had, like the structure that they have because there's actually something to respect to that. Because to your point on bike shedding, like that's what kills the creative soul is like you can have such a great idea, but then when it comes to like the executing of like the smaller parts, you can't anything across the line, then the strategy dies.
- [37:31]
B
Correct a hundred percent.
- [37:33]
A
Explain the bike shedding concept. Cuz this was like mind blowing for me.
- [37:36]
B
I've just, I think anyone who's worked, anyone who's worked period knows exactly what bike shedding is. And like 90% of their days and meetings comprise of bike shedding. So bike shedding is, is this concept and it is told through this story. So it was written by this guy Northcote Parkinson's in like the 30th, his like Parkinson's law, which is like of time that you allow to like fill a task, like it fills that task. And he has like these other kind of like quips or anecdotes. So bike shedding is one that highlights this story of people building like a committee building a nuclear reactor. And you know, the physicists and scientists go up there and like present their plans for the nuclear reactor. It's like a $20 million build. And, and they present and then they ask the committee if they have any like questions or like thoughts or opinions or anything like this. And the entire committee is just like, nope, that's approved. Great. Then it gets to the point of planning out the bike shed that will sit in the employee parking lot. And the conversation about the bike shed ends up taking three hours where every single person on the committee is weighing in. Well, we have locks. How many bike shells bike, you know, lots. Will there be what color will be the bike shed? And then there's like heated debate on the color of the bike shed. And so there's this like really great succinct quip from this or observation which is the amount of noise generated by a concept in a meeting is inversely proportional to the importance of that concept. So the fact that no one said anything about the $20 million nuclear reactor build, which is like the crux of it is like, well that's super important. We can't even weigh in on that. We don't even know how to weigh in on that. Those guys look like experts. We'll just let Them do their thing. Now, the most trivial detail we've now spent three hours in the meeting trying to figure out. And I think anyone in any corporate setting knows that frustration and how painful it is. And I think it is so prevalent in the world of marketing and branding where everyone's just. Everyone feels entitled to opinion because everyone has experienced it. Everyone has like, like I've posted something on Instagram or like, I've chosen the color of something before so I can design like the packaging. And yes, it is my favorite thing to think about when I find myself inevitably in these meetings that last three hours and we're talking about nothing.
- [40:12]
A
Like literally on my tombstone there's gonna be like, she could have had five extra years if it was not four. And I'm gonna like name out the clients. I'm gonna like have bullets on the tombstone because. Because it's exactly that. It's like the, you know, the coming in the first part, like talking about the strategy, the ideation, like, you're the expert. Love this. This is great. Then it comes into the colors. They're like, you know, I was speaking to my garbage man, my sister's husband's personal trainer, and you know, just, he can't get behind this concept. And then it kills the good idea because they're bike shedding.
- [40:47]
B
They are bike shedding it. And it's so incredibly important, at least in like the world of like branding and design. And so that's like packaging design. It's like site design. One of the issues that we would always get into with our clients is you present inevitably a concept that is different from like maybe what they pictured in their head or like their personal aesthetic face. And they're like, like, I don't know that I really like that. I don't because it doesn't like jive with my personal tastes. And. Yeah, yeah, okay. But let's remember this like new protein bar brand. The aesthetics of it and the positioning of it doesn't have to jive with necessarily your personal.
- [41:26]
A
You haven't been to the gym in two years.
- [41:28]
B
Yeah, yeah, not for you.
- [41:30]
A
Yes, it's not for you.
- [41:32]
B
What is so important? And I've realized, like to take clients along of every step of the strategy and insights phase and get there like you have to repeat yourself to death, basically. You know, we're working on a. One of our clients is launching a new non alcoholic wine brand and it's.
- [41:53]
A
This guy called the Poison.
- [41:54]
B
What's that called?
- [41:55]
A
No Poison. Called no Poison because I saw you picked it up on Your desk? Yeah.
- [41:59]
B
No, no, no, it's not. It's not this one. But, you know, the. The insights and strategy that we had guiding that process led to packaging design that if our client had seen that day one, without following along every part of that journey and us, like, drilling it into his head, he would have been like, oh, that is, like, so different and out there, that doesn't, like, align with my, like, personal taste and aesthetic. And, like, it seems a little bit too feminine maybe. Like, I don't know that I love those colors. It's, like, pretty rich with, like, this pink and this gold. I'm not sure about that. But, like, once the strategy is defined and he's bought into it, then we get to like, hey, here's the packaging. And it's almost inevitable. It's like, yeah, that's it. Like, that totally makes sense. So, yeah, it's. It's work.
- [42:48]
A
I've got a perfect story for that too. I was working with a client in agriculture, and we were designing. It basically was like a farm to table product, and we were developing the brand colors, and it was a really fascinating experience for me because they didn't. We presented colors that were more earth tones, things that would feel more, like, farm friendly. Like, there was more of kind of a brownie red, but it was. It was a kind of dirt, and there was, like, a green, and the green was kind of of grass. And there's kind of this palette that was very much. It was. It was rustic. But it really fit from that psychology of the. So that the customer was a city person, and they were basically shipping product from the farm to the city. And it was really interesting because the. The farmer team, they really didn't like the colors, and they couldn't get behind it because they felt like those are the colors that they would see every day, and it didn't seem exciting for them. They wanted to see like. Like whimsical, bright, almost circus colors, because that, to them was. They're investing in branding and marketing. They want it to feel different than what they see every day. But it was. It was a really interesting conversation of, I get that these are the colors you see every day, and this looks to you like dirt or like cow poop. But, like, that's what the consumer in the city that only sees cement. That's what they want to see. That's how they want to feel. That's what. That's the experience that they want to. They want to experience when a product comes from the farm. So it's not for you, it's for the consumer. And it was a really fascinating moment of learning that what the business owner wants isn't necessarily the best for what the consumer wants. And obviously that's obvious, but it was really cool seeing it through their eyes. Of. This doesn't fit with us because these are the colors we see every day. And I'm like, that's exactly. The point is that the colors that you see every day represents an image in a consumer's mind of what this looks like.
- [44:48]
B
That is. Yeah, I know that. I know that all too well. And have.
- [44:53]
A
I know you lived it. You're like, yeah, I've been there. Got the shirt?
- [44:57]
B
Yes.
- [44:57]
A
Camille. Yes.
- [44:58]
B
Yes.
- [44:59]
A
And it's another thing I wanted to add. It's not the same as the bike shed, but it's another concept that I love. It's called the Dunning Kruger effect. Do you know this one?
- [45:07]
B
Yes, I do, but refresh. Refresh me.
- [45:10]
A
So the. Basically, the idea is that the. The. The more you know, the less confident you feel in speaking confidently on the topic, because the more, you know, the more you realize that you can't speak in, like, definite terms because the further you get into a subject, the more complicated answering simple questions are. But the. The less you know on a subject, the o. Or overconfident on it, because when you know less, you feel like you. You can speak in definitive terms. And I find that that's a really interesting with marketing and branding, especially with people who do some research to be kind of on top of trends. Like, they almost know enough to hurt them because they become overconfident on sound bites that don't kind of paint a larger picture of a whole. And there's a lot that goes into colors or fonts or messaging or positioning. And it's. It's not as simple as watching, you know, one video off of someone and being able to basically dissect a whole industry. So I find that that also works in bike shedding because the wrong people get to power and they get to have an opinion when they shouldn't have an opinion, because there's. There's certain details that almost need to be good enough. It's different when we were talking about, with the color palette and what you're saying from positioning, but when it comes to, like, the bike locks and, you know, if you're supplying them or not, like, you can have an imperfect answer to go to market with and tweak and change later. Like, this obsession with being perfect going to launch is the enemy of getting Anything done?
- [46:35]
B
Million percent. I have so many. Yeah, I have so many comments on that last. On that last piece. I also have, you know, on this point of, like, being so in the weeds, where you realize, like, everything has this, like, nuance to it versus, hey, oh, I see that, like, working or, like, that works. So, like, let me be, like, very confident with my, like, statement here. There is, you know, especially, like, the marketing and, like. Like, yeah, this kind of, like, marketing space and, like, content, you know, regardless of what platform it's on. Like, there's this. There's this. This brand C Foods. They just sold the Pepsi for 1.2 billion.
- [47:16]
A
Crazy. Yes.
- [47:17]
B
Crazy amount of money. And there's, like, there's people who, like, cover.
- [47:22]
A
Sorry, I think it was 1.4. Right?
- [47:24]
B
It was a lot. It was north of north.
- [47:26]
A
Crazy. Sorry, I keep going. It's crazy.
- [47:28]
B
And, you know, it's funny because, like, there's some other creators who, like, talk about, like, branding, and I've seen a bunch of stuff on LinkedIn, and they're like, you know, this brand sold for $1.4 billion, but, like, this is the rebrand that got them there. And it was, like, their first packaging and then their new packaging, and it's like, listen, the rebrand didn't get them there. There's, like, 9,000 other pieces from, like, their points of distribution to, like, how they executed on, like, every function of, like, supply chain ops, like, inventory, financing, all of this stuff. Stuff. And so it's like, it is. You've isolated just, like, one point here and then, like, made this claim to, like, that's how they became successful. And it's like, that's just miss, like, misguiding to a lot of, like, people who are like, oh, maybe the thing that's, like, keeping me from my brand, from success is like, I just have to do a rebrand. And, like, sometimes a rebrand can be, like, a really powerful thing that has all of these follow on cascading effects. But again, like, we need to break that down with nuance. Or you're just doing this, like, somewhat intentionally to just, like, bait people into the content. And it's like, there's only so much you can express in a LinkedIn post, which is like, okay, fine, that's another topic of conversation. But, yeah, there's, like, sometimes stuff that just pisses me off because it's like, hey, this. This brand has built, like, a $200 million E Com business selling, like, men's T shirts using this, like, like, funnel strategy. And it's like dude, it's not, it's not the funnel strategy. It's because they sell men's shirts that fit well for like big and tall guys for $15 a shirt and no one else on the market is selling a $15.
- [48:58]
A
And they started doing it five years ago. And like that, like it's. Yes, yes. I get asked all the time stupid questions like that. Like, or like what is, what is it? Should are older people on, on Instagram and young people on Tick Tock? And I'm like, like, should it? Should a product like, you know, should products like CPG products be sold on Tick Tock or Instagram? Like okay, like stupid question, stupid question. Like that is. That is not the question. And it's even to your point on the LinkedIn. It's like if you sell a pen, you're gonna sell a pen, you know, like that's probably someone that's a branding agency and they're, they're wanting to take credit for like if, if your business ops, if you don't have the brand core, if you're not focused on a brand, on your brand and the longevity, the long haul of your brand, you're putting lipstick on a pig. Doesn't matter how many rebrands you have. Like it's, it's not a consistent great brand.
- [49:46]
B
Yeah, 100%.
- [49:49]
A
I cut you off. What were you saying before I got you off? I'm a passion on the stupid questions.
- [49:54]
B
No, there was that. Yeah, that was, that was one topic. You ended with another one. Now I've lost my train of thought on that.
- [50:03]
A
I talked about the Dunning Kruger and oh, the perfect, the perfection. This is like something I feel it's. I find it hard to communicate because the delta of like shitty, shitty people who offer marketing and branding who aren't experts but offer the service at Big Dollars and the obsession over clients to go through 80 rounds of revisions on a logo. Like it's so hard for me to balance but it, my argument is you have to be with the right people and it has to be good enough. Enough. Cuz when you like analyze breakdown of brands that have gone through like rebrands over the years, it's not the rebrand that gets them to cult status. It's like knowing when something is good enough and being obsessed on your brand. I think that's where you are about to get fired up on.
- [50:47]
B
Yeah, I think there is. There is especially and I think this like translates both in marketing and branding. There is a desire to have everything perfect. Right. Your brand Looking perfect, your messaging perfect, your like social or like content strategy to be perfect even before you do it. And what is, I think more important is this like idea of like action produces information and brands and teams will like often try to like say like hey, what's our like six month plan? Or like hey, hey, if we do that thing like oh, like that content strategy, like it's not scalable. It's not scalable to like go out in the street every day and interview these people and it's like okay, let's, that's not even, let's not ask that question. Let's ask this question of like hey, does it make sense to like do this type of like sampling program and like cut these interviews and like why does that make sense for us to like create content around that? Okay, that seems like a good enough hypothesis. Let's just go out for one day with like one person filming it at like super low cost and like go try that and see if it works. And if it works then there's this question of okay, how do you build it into a program and like then start to scale it out because now you have information from it. You might go out and it's like, okay, we film like 15 of those and like they all kind of suck and it's not that interesting and it's like really hard for us to pull off. Like okay, that's information. So thank God we didn't build a six month plan for like how we're going to build that out because like we had no inputs at all. And I think it's that this, there's like, there's this concept in like military operations. Like if you've been in like any aspect or function of the military you're familiar with. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [52:29]
A
Decision action cycles. You need them to be fast, especially today, super fast.
- [52:34]
B
And that's why I don't get like, you know, especially like smaller nimble plans. Sure. If you're Procter and Gamble, like go ahead, build out your 24 month plan, your like 3 year like marketing plan. Fine. But if you were a small like sub $100 million brand, like I don't know how you have so many people just like building you know, year long plans when it's like we just need to go do some things that like are kind of like now, but like now just do it tomorrow. Why, why, why do we continue talking.
- [53:04]
A
About it even like the, the public companies, like they're, the, the way that they're structuring their budget. Like I have so many really well intentioned CMOs. I'm like, yeah, you know, like we really need like our socials have been working for six months but we can't release fifteen hundred dollars to do an effective strategy or social meeting. So we're basically just going to continue to burn cash and it's not going to work because like we can't talk about budget until January 1st. You know, like it's, it's so inefficient and to your point, again, it's bike shedding. It's like there's so many naysayers. They want to like over obsess and over perfect before trying something. But because like you can't try anything. Like that's the whole. The problem with digital and where we are today in this attention economy is you need to be consistently doing interesting things and not have a hang up on roi. Like ROI is an intangible benefit that comes from branding, but it can't be the name of the game going into it. Like I work with brands that are doing like two to three activations per month, spending substantial revenue, but they're not focused on like how successful was that? It was that makeup Masterclass that had 25 influencers. Like they don't even care because in order to stay relevant they have to keep doing this. And it's, it's, it's not about a short term window, it's about doing something a hundred percent.
- [54:22]
B
There is this brand called Ketone iq.
- [54:26]
A
Oh, I love their product.
- [54:28]
B
So I haven't had their product. It seems like, it seems like I like it.
- [54:33]
A
You know, it makes me feel like I'm doing some good things. I drink it in the morning.
- [54:37]
B
Okay. Amazing. There you can, makes me feel good.
- [54:38]
A
With my aura ring.
- [54:40]
B
There you go. So it's like yeah, I think they like they have a cool product. Interesting. But their content, like, I think if to your point about like, you just need to be doing a lot of like interesting things and trying out interesting things. Whoever's watching this that like is trying to understand that go watch Ketone IQ's videos, just all of their reels. Because like this one that caught my attention the other day is like, it started off with like, I'm the like world record holder for an underwater triathlon and it's just like, that is such a preposterous hook. Like what do you mean? And it's like a guy biking underwater with like a tube in his mouth and he's biking underwater and he's like, I've run like 21 miles underwater. I've, like, you know, swam, like, two kilometers, like, underwater, and I just come up for air, and it takes me, like, six days. I don't believe that is necessarily, like, a true thing or anything, but it's like, a preposterous enough hook that, like, pulls you in.
- [55:33]
A
I'm intrigued.
- [55:33]
B
And then in part of, like, as he's biking underwater, they're, like, dumping, like, Ketone IQ into, like, his, like, air tube funnel. And so it's like this fun thing that, like, incorporates the brand, but. But, like, okay, whatever they shot there, that's like, a dumb idea that you can, like, do. If you have access to a pool and you have an afternoon to shoot and, like, you have some waterproof casing for your iPhone, and it has 800,000 views, a ton of great engagement on it. And now it seems like they filmed a bunch of that content, like, hey, me responding to, like, work calls, like, underwater, like, drinking Ketone Iq, like, on my laptop top. So they have, like. They do that. They, like, dress up in. In, like, these Ketone IQ outfits and, like, run alongside, like, marathon and triathlon races. They're just, like, trying a bunch of different shit. And I know they're a relatively, like, small team. They're an emerging brand. The founders oftentimes making all of this content. He's not running it by, like, any team. It's, like, him and another person. They're just like, yeah, let's go film that person.
- [56:34]
A
And that's like a total, like, founder CEOs versus higher CEOs are like. Like, it's. It's a different league. My natural inclination is to go to hockey leagues because that's simple. But I don't know if everyone understands the OHL versus the NHL, so we're gonna just say it's different leagues.
- [56:53]
B
So break that down more. What do you think about, like, founder CEOs versus hired CEOs?
- [56:57]
A
Well, I. I just. Founder CEOs are just a different beast. Like, because they. It's their company. They're involved. They. They. They intuitively understand the role without it even being a conversation or explanation that. That they're involved. Right? So it's. What they're often looking for is that, like, I call it the Olympic difference, which is like having a you or having me as, like, a soundboard. And, like, you come in and you give them that strategy. And then because they know their consumer, because they know their market, because they've just been doing. They've been fully focused on their brand for years, the level of involvement and coming up with strategy. It's just, it's game changingly different than having a hired CEO that typically they're the one that can watch the video and they can bring us in, but then they're kind of passing us off to their marketing team and nothing gets done because it's just, it's, it's a, it's a different structure. It's a bureaucratic structure and it's, it's one. When you're saying with Ketone iq, when the founder is involved in filming the content and sees his role in his business's operational success and sales comes from socials, his level of looking at his calendar and how he delegates his time is completely transformed from a hired CEO who's like, no, the social team's doing that. And often and even in those companies, the people who's actually like executing the socials, which can be, depending on your brand, the most important sales channel for your business is often handed off to like an intern, the least experienced person. And it's actually crazy when you think about it, because when you're at the top and you're like running this ship or your team, the person that gets the social is the least experience. But it's so important for the top of the business. But founders, CEOs aren't confused by that. That. And that's what I mean by that.
- [58:39]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I think there is like, I think there is a different CEO and some. Sometimes the CEO makes a transition of like the person who like builds a business from like 0 to 1 to like get it to some level of like scale and success sometimes is not like the ideal person to like optimize and like grow out the systems that take it from whatever, whatever $50 million to $500 million. Like at that point it's you're, you're. If you're building like a food and beverage brand, right. Let's say you're building whatever, you know, Celsius energy drink. Right. The founding members who like take that business to like 25 or $50 million. It's probably super different than like that CEO who takes it from 50 to 500 to 500%.
- [59:24]
A
What got you here won't get you there.
- [59:26]
B
Yeah. Then it's like whole like distribution play. Like people have some brand awareness. Like social maybe becomes a little less important when you're in like 45,000 grocery stores.
- [59:35]
A
Totally.
- [59:35]
B
And so like, okay, fine, like there can be like different CEOs at different parts. But yeah, I've seen brands that are launched and this is like a lot of brands that like come out of like incubators, especially in like the consumer space. Like when it's like it's reverse spreadsheeted into like building the business. Meaning, like, we found this opportunity. We have a thesis that the opportunity is going to be successful. We're like, like putting these people in place and now we're hiring a CEO for the business. You've like reverse tried to reverse engineer the business and you're bringing in all these disparate people and giving them a job to go grow this thing when they're like, don't have that same level of investment. Like, I've never, I haven't really seen a successful business like been launched that way where it's like day one, hey, we're going to hire the CEO, pay him $200,000, give him these like, things because he's just gonna be like, hey, give me a budget. I'm gonna hire a team. Because you hired me because like, I've done this before at like png and it's like, well, you don't need someone from PNG to like build a new brand from like.
- [60:38]
A
No. And you're right, those are usually the ones that get acquired where the idea then it like into a brand that like knows what to do with it. But even when you talked about Procter and Gamble, like they're at like a different level. Like they're, they're almost an oligarchy. Like the way that they've got the, like the distribution through drugstores and grocery stores and like the way that Proctor and Gamble runs its brands is different than if you're an emerging brand. And that's also why I divide the three levels of a brand is I found there's a lot of business owners that are truly delusional with who their competitors are. Like if you have a cl, like a cleanser line and you know, you've have some dermatologists that love it, your competitor isn't Neutrogena. You know, like, if you're brand new.
- [61:19]
B
And you're like not copying your brand product, they're not going to pop your product, they're not going to build it. You might get some sale and then they might buy you at that.
- [61:27]
A
Maybe. Yeah, maybe. No. And that's, and that's where like I'm, where it's, it's relevant on the, you know, one hand to criticize the business case studies. But there, you know, there is something to. I do love learning the case studies. I do love kind of extracting and knowing what's going on in the market and like the successors that came before. But it's important to benchmark who are your brand's competitors and what even makes sense for you to look at. Because to talk about a procter and gamble in the same breath is delusional. And it just, it. You're not going to get anywhere fast if that's what your focus is on.
- [61:58]
B
Correct. I see this so much in the space of as brands think about their like, content strategies and marketing strategies. I mean, I've had some like crazy conversations with brands that are like pretty novel products in like early and immature categories where there's not a ton of education. And they will say things like, hey, we want to do storytelling the same way Nike does storytelling. And the way that Nike does storytelling is like, well, hey, they've been around for 60 years. They are like a multi billion dollar brand. Everyone knows them. Like, they have the benefit of doing just like they can spend $5 million on a campaign that like they don't even launch because they're like, oh, we just want to like, see how it turns out and we'll see if that works. But like, is that directly like driving any ROI for our business? That is like totally different when you're at a scale where you've sold $500,000 in product, like, you can't run a campaign like Nike. It's not going to do anything for you. No one knows who you are or the thing that you sell.
- [63:05]
A
I like, I. So I've got such a great story on this one. The problem is like, they're just, they're going to totally know who they are sometimes. And a part of me doesn't know if I care, but I had this, I had this client. Thank you, Jaz. Sorry about this. That is in. I wish I could change the category, but they were, they were, they were fast food and they, their category. They had a huge competitor in their category. It was like a, it's, I mean, a household name. Okay, you know what? It was Chipotle. Chipotle was the, was in the same category. But Chipotle has been around for 30 years. It's owned by McDonald's. It's. The reason why Chipotle is so successful is because McDonald's wanted to replicate the success it's seen and get into a different category, which is why they created Chipotle. They purchased this franchise out of Colorado in the 90s. And this client of mine is like, is has 300 stores to Chipotle's 7000. So it's like, like it's in the brand recognition that American brands have in Canada is very different because American brands are, are more coveted. It's an American brand. You know, it takes years for American brands to get here. So by the time that like Chick Fil A gets here, it's so novel that there's like massive lineups because we no longer have to go to the states. Same with Abercrombie and Hollister when these American brands come over. But they thought that that was their competitor. But Chipotle has a strategy that's more like Apple. Like they're very strategic in where they place real estate in Canada because Canada's population density is nowhere near United States. Like we pretty much are only at the, at the base of the border.
- [64:40]
B
Yep.
- [64:40]
A
So when this client was like, Chipotle is our, is my competitor. I'm like, you're delusional. Because if anyone is planning to go to Chipotle, it's not Chipotle or some unknown chain that, that the average person still doesn't know about because 300 locations is a lot. But across Canada, Canada's still a huge country. So it's, it, it's in nowhere comparable from a brand perspective to their apples and oranges. Even if you're selling, selling somewhat similar food where the consumer is trained for the brand. It's like saying you're shopping for a Rolex and a Swatch. Yeah, they're both watches. But you're delusional that you're competitors because like someone isn't going for a Timex in a Rolex or an AP in a Timex. Like if you're in that category, you're looking at other high end watches. So I like using that baseline because business, and I'm shocked at the size of businesses that are, that are truly delusional in who they think they are, their competitors are and how off track they can get because of that delusion.
- [65:38]
B
Yes. I think, I think like delusion of people who run brands like extends really far. And like one of the biggest delusions is like people care about like our why and like what we do and like every message that we put out. And like brands will. Brands spend so much time like talking about themselves and their mission and their why and like how they communicate. And they're like, oh, if we put like three posts in a row saying the same thing, like, you know, we have to like, you know, change it up because like that's gonna turn off people. I'm like, People are not clinging on your every word. Like, people are barely interacting with your post. People are barely thinking about your brand. Let me ask you, like, how many brands have you thought about this week? Like, truly, as someone who just, like, owns a brand, like, how many brands have you thought about this week?
- [66:17]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [66:19]
B
I don't know. None. Like, the only brands I think about are the ones where I'm like, oh, they've done something interesting. I'm gonna talk about them because, like, I happen to make content about it. But, like, the average person, even, no matter what loyalties they have to certain brands, like, they're still not, like, thinking about their brand and, like, the nuance of it all the time. And it's just like, it should be a freeing thought, but it's like, kind of like, get over yourself. Like, don't worry about it. If you make this mistake, if you make something shitty, like, it really doesn't matter because, like, no one cares. Sorry, no one cares.
- [66:47]
A
Nobody cares. I say this all the time, but I say it in a way to more empower you than to. To feel small because you're not doing anything. Because you're so crippled by the potential of someone being insulted or not liking it or not agreeing with it. And it gets to the point where, like, everything just becomes a conversation and a topic of, like, what if? And the majority of the stuff that's put on the table is not racial, political, or sexual. Like, we're not talking about these, like, controversial campaigns like Balenciaga. Like, most are. Are really, honestly quite vanilla when we talk about it. But because there's. There's people in positions of decision making that shouldn't be, brands don't get anything done. And to your point, like, even of the brands that stand out and actually you're, like, interested in talking about, there's still so many brands that are pushing that envelope and there's so many brands that are doing it. There's so much noise, like, to stand out. The bar is so high that it has to be unique. It needs to be interesting, and it needs to be developed in a way that authentically connects with your brand, which goes back even. And I want to talk before we wrap up on the Fabletics piece because it's. It's so easy to talk about the Nutter Butters because they're, like, so extreme and it's like, such an easy thing just to discuss. But by doing things that are for your brand, you're more likely to stand.
- [68:03]
B
Out and for people to care, yes, 100% yeah, so. So we can talk about the Fabletics campaign because I made a video about this. But Fabletics is like a brand that like, at least you know, it's like fairly big and kind of like well known in like the athletics.
- [68:20]
A
I feel like it's kind of walmarty for leggings. Like it's kind of mass market cheap, but they get good names to ride it out. But it's like it's not fancy.
- [68:28]
B
Yes, it is not fancy. It is like not like the lululemon aloe, like athleisure. But it's like solid stuff. Like good price points. Good enough, you know, Good enough. Good enough. Like mass market stuff. They did. So they got into the medical scrub space and the medical.
- [68:44]
A
Which I thought was a brilliant vertical to get into because really untapped, other than figs, like they really don't have much competitors. Smart concept.
- [68:51]
B
So. So there's figs, you know, in the States there's like, I think with a rise of like figs. I don't know if you want to call it success because once they got into the public markets it hasn't been like a very successful venture for them. Interesting. But like figs initially getting into this space and being like, hey, this was a category.
- [69:08]
A
There was a gap. A few years ago. There was a gap.
- [69:10]
B
Yes, yes, absolutely. When they started, there was a gap and they got into the space. Figs, like, okay, they got into the space. They did. They did pretty well. There was a number of like fast followers again, emerging brands getting into the space because there's demand for it. And I think it was. It's really interesting when like, you know, Fabletics has the distribution, they have the awareness, they have like, you know, the mailing list and all the storefronts where they're like, okay, we can enter this new vertical that's like been proven out to some degree and it's not a huge risk for us because we know there's demand for it and we're targeting an audience that, that like, it's kind of like mass market. We're going to hit like nurses, nurse practitioners, doctors.
- [69:45]
A
Like, yeah, old age home. Like, it's actually brilliant.
- [69:48]
B
Yeah, so. So totally makes sense. We're going to launch this and like, is the product like that innovative relative to figs? No, probably not. They're making the same like scrubs and shirts with like cool silhouettes and like, maybe their patterns are going to be slightly different but like, probably not that crazy because like, still medical professionals are wearing them in a professional context. So It's a relatively undifferentiated product in like a boring category. And so it's really just like, how do you build like awareness that you sell this product? Product? And they did a really interesting launch with Ken J. Who is the comedian in the Hangover, right? And is like kind of like iconic, especially for like, you know, people like our generation and older. And it's. He's.
- [70:27]
A
He's Kevin Hart, well known. Like he's someone who. You see his face and you automatically you're like, I get it.
- [70:33]
B
You know the scene, you know what he's like from. He's like this, this funny, kind of likable, relatable person. He also had a background before he became a comedian. He was a doctor. And so there's this like nice tie in where. Where it's like, hey, we need to launch this campaign in a funny way. Like bring some awareness to it, to this audience that like knows his face. And he also like has this nice tie in where he was a doctor before. And so they like had this like really cute campaign around it. They like shot a great commercial. They had like good socials for it. And I was just like, nice. That's like solid. They didn't. Fabletics didn't say like, hey, we need to partner with like Emma Chamberlain or like Chappelle Roan to like launch this thing. They were like, like, we're just gonna find this guy. It's like, when was the last time people were talking about Ken Jiang? I don't know, Like, I don't even.
- [71:13]
A
Know what his last movie was. But I just. It was such a brilliant. When you broke it down too, that he was a doctor, I'm like, that's good. Like it was, it was even good before digging into those like second and third order of thinking, but just like even the visual of someone who you don't expect to be modeling clothes but like for a mass market, even you touching on Kevin Hart, like, it's such an interesting vertical for them to get into. Because when you're mass market, like, it just is a likable figure. It's not. They're not sell. Selling sex or not selling the appeal. They're just selling. And I like a visual icon that makes you feel good. That's funny to connect with the brand launch. It was so well done.
- [71:49]
B
Yes, it was great. It was great. Like 10 out of 10. And they. I think that's like where they've also had a lot of success. Like they've had a long time partnership with Kevin Hart and like he's launched a lot of like their new products and product lines and every campaign that they do has this like element of like humor and relatability. And he's just like, listen, I can bring in like my friends from like comedy World and like we can do these like fun skits and like sketches where it's like, that's more interesting than like, hey, we launched our new like lines, like come look at them. It's just like the same shit that.
- [72:20]
A
Everyone else is selling, but it's also real, you know. And that's why I wanted you to touch on it is, is when you look at kind of where the mass market is trending, you know, it's in this kind of space of like humor, like the rock Kevin. Like, like it just. These are great characters to launch a mass market product. And why I, I wanted the quick wrap up before we we roll is how can boring brands, not that Fabletics is boring, but like that, that it's more boring than sexy. How can they do interesting things that are different so that they don't feel like the cool campaigns are only reserved for the cool brands.
- [72:54]
B
I think the, I think it's, it's kind of like the Nutter Butter. If we take like one kernel of like the Nutter Butter insight, it works because, because you have, it's unexpected. It's like super unhinged for this like legacy brand that I've heard of. Like I would never expect something like that. And I think the same thing can be said for like any kind of like legacy brand or like legacy category. I mean like one of like my favorite like brand names is, is this industrial supplier of fans, right? Called Big Ass.
- [73:23]
A
Big Ass Fans? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [73:25]
B
What other industrial supplier fans have you ever known or thought about? And it's just like gets your attention through the name and like that we.
- [73:32]
A
Have a big ass fan at my cottage because it's so good. You can't not like it's just, it's so, it's the surprise and delight. It's like the, like this is so memorable.
- [73:41]
B
Yes, yes, absolutely. And so I think there's that there's this other like there's a hardware like tooling company, they make drills and like screwdrivers and jackhammers and all this stuff. I'm forgetting the name but I've seen a bunch of their videos and it's just like this older guy in a hardware store like reviewing it like off the cuff, just like saying some funny stuff and it's kind of like, it's unexpected because it's almost like that's the older, like, dad that you would find in the aisles in Home Depot. Him then being on Instagram talking about this product is like, it's great. In every video. People are like, we love you, Tim. We love you, Tim.
- [74:19]
A
Like, because we would go to our dads for that.
- [74:21]
B
Like.
- [74:21]
A
Like, as millennials. When you're buying power tools, that's the image of who you can trust. That's who's credible. And it's memorable because. Because I don't even know where to start with tools, but my dad does.
- [74:32]
B
Like, that's where I think there is, like, the most interesting opportunity. I. I mean, just, like, off the cuff. There is this. There is this washer dryer brand called Speed Queen, which has been around since, like, the 50s or 60s. And I learned about this brand because I hate modern washers and dryers. Like, they have way too many buttons on them. Like, I don't understand what any of these settings are.
- [74:56]
A
It's like, why somebody settings, like, I need a manual.
- [74:59]
B
It's kind of like TVs. They're making up new to, like, sell you the latest gadget. But I'm like, half the time, it's not even, like, a better washer, better dryer. And there were a number of people who were like, oh, if you want a good washer dryer, you got to go get Speed Queen. So I'm, like, looking into Speed Queen and, like, they're, like, really technical.
- [75:16]
A
You were deep in Reddit.
- [75:17]
B
I was, like, deep in Reddit, right? And then I'm like, what is. And people have fantastic things to say about Speed Queen on Reddit. That's how you know it's a good brand.
- [75:25]
A
It's a good product.
- [75:25]
B
When people read it, are not shitting on it. Then I'm, like, looking at their socials, and I'm like, oh, their socials are nowhere. They have, like, 2,000 followers. But I'm like, how cool would it be to, like, design, like, a social strategy to, like, make their content more interesting with, like, this category and brand that's kind of, like, legacy kind of boring. Like, no one in the washer dryer category is making good content on socials. And, like, no, that just seems like. And the name is good. It's like, you could do some, like, a great name on, like, cool stuff with it. That. Yeah, there's a lot of opportunity in, like, the legacy, boring, unsexy spaces. For sure.
- [75:59]
A
Those are the ones. Those are the clients that actually excite me the most when they're like, okay, we know we need to change. We don't know what. And we're not really going to stick hand deal you go. Because like it's so fun working with legacy brands. Like having them kind of do something unique and new opposed to like obviously a brand new brand. That's kind of unproven. But yeah, that's a really great summary I guess in wrap up of this. I really want high level. Where do you think trends are going for 2025? Where do you think people can. I know, I'm sorry. That's like a really big one.
- [76:26]
B
No.
- [76:30]
A
Socials, branding, anything throw at it. Where do you think we're going?
- [76:35]
B
I think there is like everyone especially like more of like the legacy and larger brands are like catching up to the state of social. But I'm like still like hearing from them like, oh, oh, it's like you know from like larger like Fortune 500 company. Oh, like I don't know that we can be on TikTok because that's like the dancing app. And it's like, dude, it hasn't been like a dancing app since 2018. Like you really need to like get with the program and like you shutting down like strategies or channels to work on like the like one of the world's biggest like social apps and platforms. Like everyone of every demographic and age range is on that platform and it is not not that content. So like you need to be there, you need to show up in an interesting way. But like you just shutting it down with like a myopic worldview of it is like this is dated, right? So like that first and foremost needs to change. But anyway, like people are I think like catching up to like, hey, there can be like serious outsized impact that like being relevant and like having good presence on social, whether like Instagram, like just all through like short form content, even like longer form content too. I think that brands are kind of like wisening up to that and I think a lot of strategy is should be and this is like a trend that I'm like hoping to see more of is like reverse engineered from social. So if we are launching a, if we're like launching a campaign or if we are launching a new product, almost like what is like the hook in the reel that makes this interesting. So it's like you go look at liquid Death, right? They're like we're gonna do a partnership with a casket company to that also is a cooler and it is going to be like it ties into like murder your thirst. And it's going to be like the world's largest, coldest cooler brought to you by like liquid death. And it's like, okay, that's like a pretty, like, interesting, shocking, like, hook to a real. Okay. Like we'll reverse engineer it from its like, potential like virality or ability to like spread through for people to stop and literally care about what you're doing.
- [78:44]
A
Yeah.
- [78:44]
B
And then we're going to invest the time to like go make that good rather than like, hey, let's invest hundreds of thousands of dollars like, oh my God, like a good one.
- [78:53]
A
And hoping to get a viral moment.
- [78:55]
B
Hoping to get a viral moment. Yeah. Zendaya did a partnership with on this year. They had this like, they had her playing with like Roger Federer and they shot this like incredibly like cinematic video video that like went on Social. And it's like, what the hell is this? Literally, what is this? It's just like shots of like these like hyper edited shots of like Roger Federer hitting a ball to Zendaya in like on shoes. And it's like, why? Why? What is this? You know what would have been fucking incredible is having Zendaya in like Billie Jean Queen's Billie Jean King, like, stadium playing with like 50 of her fans. And like you create all these like mini content pieces and like stories around it and it's like brought to you by on there's like a thousand other ways to like make that content interesting. But, like, because you're not starting with like, hey, why should people care? And like, why should they care? Through the lens of Social, which is like the biggest distribution channel right now, you're going to end up with something that's like coming from the world of like TV media, where it's like, hey, what's our 30 second trailer before the Super Bowl? And it's like, we're going to put Roger Federer with Zendaya in on shoes and. And it's like no one cares. This is like a stupid piece of content.
- [80:06]
A
And it's what Gary Vee talks about too. It's like, it's this outdated agency thinking that it needs to be like this TV commercial production value. But there's. There's no. So what? There's no story. There's no hook. Like, there's no. It's not interesting. And you can't buy people's attention like you used to be able to in the TV day. Like, you were stuck 10 years ago. Like, we would live to watch those movie trailers on the TV because, like, that was how we would like that's how we'd hear about movies. Now it's not, let me tell you.
- [80:34]
B
Just something crazy as we talk about like legacy media, because I was having this conversation like earlier this year, which is there is a very, very large streaming service that was trying to figure out their TikTok strategy. And it's like the streaming wars, right? Tubi, Netflix, Hulu, all of them, Paramount, Peacock, they're all kind of like competing for the same like eyeballs. And they're like, hey, we need to communicate that like our library of content is like really good and you can watch certain shows that you can't watch anywhere else on our platform. Platform. So I'm like, okay, let me take a look at your TikTok right now. You look at their TikTok account and it's like the first three seconds of every video is like now streaming on insert streaming service. And I'm like, you've lost people in the first three seconds because like, what are we watching? There's going to be no retention on this. And I was like, okay everyone, you're just like clipping content from your existing library. Why don't you have someone who makes a video? The holidays are coming up. Oh, here are like three of my favorite movies to like watch with my family during the holidays and just so happen to highlight like those movies exist in your library. Why don't you just make like green screen talking head? You could do that for like every like season or event or like have someone like dissecting like the drama in a show. Yeah, that show happens to be on your platform. And they're like, they were like astounded by that idea. And they're like, we never did that because they only come from this world of like broadcast media. And they're like, they had a template, they had us.
- [81:56]
A
This was the way that things were done.
- [81:58]
B
And I'm like, dude, it's because it's not tv. You don't need to be making a TV ad here. No one cuz TV died.
- [82:04]
A
No, like TV died.
- [82:06]
B
Whatever. There's like some people like watch tv, but it's like that you have to know the channel you're playing on, right? And it's like you guys are making tik toks with like a TV mentality. No wonder this account isn't going anywhere. Oh, by the way, you have 17 people just dedicated to this Tik Tok account. What are 16 and a half of them doing on a daily basis?
- [82:23]
A
It drives me to drink. Like it actually like not really. Like, I'm so on my health kick, but I'm just like, me, too. I'm astounded. Like, I'll give them these ideas and, like, oh, we just wanted to hear. We were shadowbanned, so.
- [82:38]
B
No, it's just the content sucks.
- [82:40]
A
Literally, it's the worst content I've ever seen. And there's a reason why you're number five in the streaming wars, so that is awesome. Ashwin. Where can people find you? You.
- [82:50]
B
Schwinnebago. Schwinnebago. Brand Instagram, TikTok.
- [82:54]
A
What is Schwinnebago?
- [82:56]
B
Schwinnebago was a nickname that I got in college because I don't know if you're familiar with Winnebagos. They're like, the big RV.
- [83:04]
A
Where is this going?
- [83:04]
B
The big RV. So they're the big RVs. So, like, freshman year of college, my. My friend just started calling me Schwinnebago. And then that became, like, just, like, my nickname, right? And then that just, like, carried through. And then when I started making content, content, I actually had no intention of, like, people like, oh, did you want to become this creator? And all this? I was like, no, I just like talking about this, and I hate, like, seeing brands, like, screw things up. So I'm like, just gonna start talking about it. So I didn't come on and be like, hey, like, the brandingguy.com as, like, my handle, you know, I was just like, oh, whatever. It's. This is like, me. And then, yeah, yeah, it's just like, whatever. It's like me talking and people like, what the isago? And so, like, now I'm just, like, leaning into it even harder. They're like, I can never remember your name. And I'm like, well, imagine me, like, on a Winnebago. So I'm trying to do this, like, collab with the Winnebago RVs where I drive it across America. That's a whole nother story. But is that.
- [83:54]
A
Is that. Is that in production?
- [83:55]
B
It's not in production, but it will be, because I am slowly manifesting that.
- [83:59]
A
Yes, I'm manifesting it for you too. I want nothing more than. You want a silver bullet rolling down the Midwest.
- [84:05]
B
That's right. We're talking brands and marketing across the country. We're doing a tour.
- [84:09]
A
That'd be awesome.
- [84:10]
B
It'd be a lot of.
- [84:11]
A
That's where we could do the round table. Well, the question I've been asking everybody that's been on the show. Sorry, this Is like the last really quite a big question. What is branding to you?
- [84:22]
B
What is branding to me? Branding to me is I always, I like to think of it as like an analogy, right? So I like to think of it as the analogy of a person, right? So how I, I dress on a daily basis, how I talk, like the bands in which I talk. Like, I'm often like, you know, in like personal conversations. I like, like to like give advice and like listen to people. I'm often like, I have like a dry sense of humor and I'm like told. I'm kind of like witty. So it's like, okay, that's like my humor style. I'm never like slapstick joke, kind of like funny. I'm never like stand up comedian funny. Um, and it's like, personally, like, I generally like to be like thoughtful and like reflective and just like read and think and like I'm very in my head. That is like my universe of like me as like adjectives. If you like describe like my mental state and how I communicate the clothes that I wear, I'm either in like athletic stuff because I'm going to the gym, or I'm in like a sweater and jeans. Like, there's like a pretty like narrow band there, all of this. And then there's like places that I go and things that I do and like places that I show up. Like, you'll see me at certain concerts, but you'll never see me at other concerts. You'll see me at certain coffee shops, but you'll never see me at other coffee shops. So like all of this is like my entire personality and that all falls within a certain range and that is like my brand universe. So if you think about it as like now a physical product, what is a brand? It's like, it's not just like how your packaging looks and what it says and all of the copywriting. It's like the places that it shows up in. It's the other brands that it affiliates with. Just like think of everything as a person and a thing that a person does that is like the entire brand, right? All of the ways that a brand communicates through visual and verbal.
- [86:09]
A
A brand is a universe.
- [86:11]
B
A brand is a universe.
- [86:12]
A
That was a great answer.
- [86:14]
B
Thank you.
- [86:15]
A
I've asked every weekend and then we've got, we've got a wrap. But I've asked every person that's been on what a brand is. And because I'm writing a book, it's called the Art of the Brand. So I'm thinking of asking you guys when it gets to print production, I might put, like, on each page of the chapter and I'll put, like, your handle in it of, like, what is a brand? Because it's been so cool to ask such, like, big people in branding what is a brand? And to get their answers. So that is. And I, I consider you among them. So I would love. I will, I will request the inquiry when the time is. When the time is right. But I really appreciate your time. Thank you. This was an awesome conversation.
- [86:47]
B
Of course. This is a lot of fun, and I would have this conversation any day.