Hockey Is Dead: How Corporate Killed the Game | TikTok, Eurovision & What EMV Means for Brands

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Art of the Brand Episode: Hockey Is Dead: How Corporate Killed the Game | TikTok, Eurovision & What EMV Means for Brands
Release Date: May 22, 2025
Hosts: Camille Moore and Phillip Millar (referred to as Jordan and Cameron in the transcript)

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Introduction

In this episode of The Art of the Brand, hosts Camille Moore (Jordan) and Phillip Millar (Cameron) delve deep into the intricate relationships between branding, corporate influence, and audience engagement across various industries. From the decline of hockey's authentic fan experience to the potent impact of TikTok in modern marketing, they offer insightful critiques and forward-thinking strategies for business owners aiming to elevate their brands.

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1. The Decline of Hockey's Brand

The episode kicks off with a passionate discussion about the Toronto Maple Leafs and the broader decline of hockey's authentic brand.

• Corporate Interference:
  Jordan criticizes the corporate takeover of the hockey experience, stating, “They’ve done to hockey, I think they’ve ruined the experience for the audience member” (02:28). Cameron echoes this sentiment, noting how orchestrated support from corporate headquarters dilutes genuine fan enthusiasm.

• Fan Experience vs. Corporate Control:
  The hosts contrast the organic fan-driven atmosphere in European soccer with the manufactured environment in North American hockey. Jordan laments, “It's always loud, mostly rap music the second the puck isn't moving. And it just destroyed the experience” (03:55).

• Lack of Authentic Player Brands:
  Jordan points out the absence of strong personal brands among Maple Leafs players, stating, “No of them have great personal brands” (05:20). This lack of authentic representation contributes to the team's fading brand as a “religious” entity disconnected from its supporters.

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2. TikTok and Marketing Creativity

Shifting focus, the conversation explores the transformative power of TikTok in marketing.

• Creativity Over Budget:
  Cameron introduces a successful TikTok campaign by Town and Country Ford, highlighting its massive engagement achieved with minimal investment. He emphasizes, “Creativity is going to win more than your ad budget ever could” (10:16).

• Case Study – Town and Country Ford:
  Jordan describes the viral success of the Ford dealership’s humorous video, which cleverly mimics chiropractic adjustments on cars. “This TikTok piece of content probably cost 100 bucks” (12:16).

• Strategies for Success:
  The hosts advocate for investing time in creative content rather than relying solely on hefty ad budgets. Jordan advises, “Creativity is a skill and it is something that is worth spending money on” (13:45).

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3. Earned Media Value (EMV) and Brand Scaling

Jordan introduces the concept of Earned Media Value (EMV) as a critical metric for modern brands.

• Understanding EMV:
  “The new term you're seeing is EMV. And a lot of brands... are quantifying it through earned media value” (15:32). Emma explains how EMV measures the effectiveness of media engagement without direct spending.

• Revolve’s Marketing at Coachella:
  Jordan cites Revolve’s $9 million spend at Coachella, translating it into an EMV of “16 or 25 million” (16:56), showcasing the immense return from strategic event participation.

• Practical Takeaways:
  Emphasizing the importance of EMV, Cameron notes, “the ROI on that is huge compared to traditional ad spend” (25:44), encouraging brands to prioritize earned media through authentic engagement.

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4. Leadership's Role in Branding

A pivotal segment discusses the influence of leadership on brand development.

• Intent-Based Leadership:
  Cameron shares a military leadership example, illustrating how clear, intent-driven directives can transform organizational culture. “Intent based leadership is a fairly simple, but it's a dynamic concept” (41:24).

• Empowering Employees:
  Jordan underscores the necessity for founders to embody and communicate their brand’s intent, saying, “If you don’t have intent based brand leadership... whose fault is it that your brand isn’t thriving?” (40:34).

• Case Study – Effective Leadership:
  The hosts discuss how effective leadership fosters a consistent and compelling brand story, essential for scaling beyond a "good brand" to a "great brand."

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5. Eurovision and Brand Authenticity

The conversation shifts to Eurovision, examining its evolution and impact on national branding.

• From National Pride to TikTok Virality:
  Jordan observes, “Eurovision has fallen into that because it was... really proud of their country... now it's like these people who don't sing who are trying to get TikTok views” (00:52), highlighting the shift from authentic representation to performative spectacle.

• Comparisons with Other Award Shows:
  Cameron compares Eurovision’s decline to other award shows like the Met Gala, noting how maintaining brand authenticity—“They went back to the original principles... had a clear Met Gala brand” (45:07)—can preserve the event's prestige.

• Impact on National Identity:
  Jordan emphasizes Eurovision’s role in showcasing national brands, stating, “where the country chooses to put somebody ridiculous to represent them in Eurovision” (47:22), questioning the long-term effects on the event’s relevance.

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6. PR Crises and Brand Management

The hosts tackle strategies for managing public relations crises, using Tylenol’s handling of a past crisis as a prime example.

• Proactive Ownership:
  Cameron recounts Tylenol’s response to poisoning incidents, applauding their transparent and responsible actions: “They recalled everything at huge expense. And the way they relaunched the product... allowed them to double market share” (60:14).

• Authenticity Over Avoidance:
  Jordan criticizes traditional PR strategies that rely on minimizing issues without addressing them, “Apologize, apologize, apologize, and then shut up” (58:23), advocating for authentic storytelling and crisis ownership.

• Building Resilient Brands:
  Emphasizing long-term brand strength, they discuss how handling crises authentically can enhance brand loyalty and admiration.

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7. Amazon's Logo Redesign

A lighter yet insightful discussion on Amazon’s recent logo update serves as a case study in subtle branding changes.

• Minimalist Refresh:
  Jordan critiques Amazon’s new logo as a mere modernization, observing, “they lessened the weight of the font to like to modernize it” (66:24).

• Cost vs. Impact:
  Cameron defends the redesign budget, explaining, “if you have a brand that's worth a hundred billion dollars, doing a brand refresh... is actually fair” (65:57).

• Lessons in Branding:
  The hosts conclude that sometimes, “tweaking to just like clean up and modernize it is a change” (66:46), emphasizing the importance of maintaining brand recognition while updating visuals.

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8. Ballerina Farmer's Branding Strategy

The episode transitions to a controversial topic surrounding Ballerina Farmer’s recent marketing collaboration.

• Embracing Controversy:
  Jordan discusses Ballerina Farmer's partnership with Nara Smith, highlighting their strategy of “leaning into the haters” (52:09) as a means to solidify their brand within a specific market.

• Selective Authenticity:
  The collaboration leverages traditional values and selective presentation, maintaining authenticity while attracting both supporters and critics.

• Strategic Brand Positioning:
  Cameron praises the strategy, suggesting, “break into your tribe” by embracing what makes the brand unique, regardless of widespread acceptance.

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Conclusion

In this multifaceted episode, Cameron and Jordan provide a compelling analysis of how brands can navigate corporate influences, leverage modern platforms like TikTok, and maintain authenticity amidst evolving consumer expectations. Key takeaways include the paramount importance of creativity over budget, the strategic use of Earned Media Value (EMV), the critical role of intent-based leadership, and the necessity of authentic brand storytelling. As brands strive to scale and resonate in a saturated market, these insights offer invaluable guidance for business owners seeking to forge lasting and impactful brand identities.

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Notable Quotes

• Jordan (02:28):
  “They’ve done to hockey, I think they’ve ruined the experience for the audience member.”

• Jordan (03:55):
  “It's always loud, mostly rap music the second the puck isn't moving. And it just destroyed the experience.”

• Cameron (10:16):
  “Creativity is going to win more than your ad budget ever could.”

• Jordan (16:56):
  “The new term you're seeing is EMV. And a lot of brands... are quantifying it through earned media value.”

• Cameron (41:24):
  “Intent based leadership is a fairly simple, but it's a dynamic concept.”

• Jordan (52:09):
  “Lean into the haters.”

• Cameron (65:57):
  “If you have a brand that's worth a hundred billion dollars, doing a brand refresh... is actually fair.”

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Note: Timestamps refer to the position in the provided transcript and are formatted as MM:SS.

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This summary provides a comprehensive overview of the episode’s key discussions, ensuring that even those who haven't listened can grasp the essential insights and strategies shared by Camille Moore and Phillip Millar.

Transcript

[Jordan]

It's also why Toronto hasn't won. Yeah, we're focused on everything else. But even think about the. Like, what players on the Toronto Maple Leaf have great personal brands? Like, none of them.

[Cameron]

You know, in a Liverpool game, if you go to Ironfield or if you go to Barcelona, if, you know. No, but there's no loudspeaker telling people what to do. There's just fans who love the game and are sharing their energy with their players. And I found it to be a very artificial and unsatisfying experience.

[Jordan]

People don't care. They don't care. And if you have people commenting, being like, how dare you make fun of chiropractors. Amazing. You broke through the algorithm. People that are overthinking on all of these concepts is why you're behind and why you're not winning. I feel like Eurovision has fallen into that because it was. It represented a place in Europe where the countries kind of were really proud of their country. They all had a singer, they got behind, they voted for it. Like, there was this whole cachet. And now it's like these people who don't sing who are trying to get TikTok views and it's just. It's no longer about what it once was.

[Cameron]

I like it because to me, it's almost like an Olympics of national identity in Europe. It can be ridiculous, but if it's ridiculous, it's because the country choose to. Chose to put somebody ridiculous to represent them in Eurovision. What a brand, what a brand, what.

[Jordan]

A brand, what a mighty good brand say it again now What a brand, what a brand, what a brand what a mighty good brand. All right, well, welcome back to another week of Art of the Brand.

[Cameron]

Tons of stuff to talk about today. Lots going on in the world.

[Jordan]

Let's kick it off with our sad loss of Game 7. Poor Toronto Maple Leafs.

[Cameron]

Oh, you want to go right into sports marketing, do you?

[Jordan]

Let's do it.

[Cameron]

Devastating. You know, the Leafs cannot win a Game seven. That's just a sports reality. And I managed. I took my dad to Game seven, which was special for me to take him there. But what I feel like they've done to hockey, I think they've ruined the experience for the audience member. And I'll tell you why. If it's okay, if you go to Europe, there's a real home team advantage in soccer, and it's because the fans create the energy. They sing, they respond to the game and so much that in soccer, in Europe, an away goal is worth two, not just one. And the reality is because the fans care and they create it. But what I saw in hockey is they almost kind of took a basketball approach where they hire two, two people who don't look like they've ever played hockey to be the crowd kind of fluffers to get them to. And so what happens is you go to the game and now two, two young people are telling you to make noise the whole time. So it's not organic enthusiasm, it's just constant noise. There's never a moment of silence for the audience to feel the game because it's always like loud, mostly rap music the second the puck isn't moving. And it just, it destroyed the experience. To me it looks like marketing people kind of from a DEI perspective are trying to make the atmosphere as opposed to letting the audience make the atmosphere. And I think it actually affects the home team because they're not getting authentic support. They're getting curated or orchestrated support by kind of corporate headquarters.

[Jordan]

We talk about dai, but where's D in that?

[Cameron]

Well, in the beginning you can just see that like there's a corporation that's pushing it because there was a two minute video in the begin beginning saying change the game, change hockey. And essentially it was saying bring every type of person into hockey. Which is fine, like we want everybody to play hockey. But it was like very much let's change the game. And you wouldn't see in football them having a change the game. Let's bring small Filipinos into football, you know, necessarily. But it was very. And then There was a 90 second land acknowledgment. It was just everything in the beginning was very much corporate kind of virtue signaling. But then what I found is, and it goes back to what we were talking about commercials last week is it just looks like you're being told what to think. And then at the game you're being told when to stand, when to wave a flag, when to cheer. And it's like everybody in the stadium is automaton, just doing what they're told by the screen. And these people. And it was as opposed to you couldn't tell people what to do. You know, in a Liverpool game, if you go to Arnfield or if you go to Barcelona, there's no loudspeaker telling people what to do. There's just fans who love the game and are sharing their energy with their players. And I found it to be a very artificial and unsatisfactory satisfying experience.

[Jordan]

That's where it's like, it's like the North American mind virus. It's like we're just being told constantly, like, what to do and to do it. And it's, it's ruining the experience of things because the experience is no longer in your own hands. Right? Like, you can't have your own experience. You're just being told exactly what to do.

[Cameron]

It's almost like they're scared of silence. But you can tell, like there's corporate executives trying to make it more fun as opposed to allowing it to be fun. And you're so right about. It's exhausting because there's not a second of, of of silence during the game where you can feel a game development. Like, you can't feel.

[Jordan]

You can't even get the, you can't even get the prep for the game. It's like you come in and it's like, okay, we're going to do five minutes of land acknowledgement, then we're going to tell you why the sport is a problem and like, who needs to be in the sport. And then it's going to tell you that we like. None of it's about the brand of the players. None of it's about the brand or the history of the team. None of it's about like the sport or what's about to happen. Like, it's, it doesn't have the reason why you're there. It's like every other reason you're there is what's being talked about and discussed.

[Cameron]

That's beautifully said, actually. And I think other sports team, because we've worked with other sports teams, something like Toronto Maple Leafs is a giant corporation. They have like all of this money. But then other sport teams think they have to mimic it. And I think the big players make mistakes because they're set up to win. Because they have a monopoly on hockey in this area that's fanatical about hockey. The franchises that really matter are like those smaller franchises that, that stay true to their fans. The Green Bay packers or some team.

[Jordan]

Also why Toronto hasn't won. Yeah, we're focused on everything else. But even think about the, like, what players on the Toronto Maple Leaf have great personal brands. Like none of them. Like, like Tavares, who's a great person, has no presence.

[Cameron]

Nobody knows.

[Jordan]

Nobody knows him. Like Austin, Matthew and Marner are more like Justin Bieber's kind of playboys. Like, they don't really. It's not what we want from a brand as religion. Like Toronto Maple Leafs is a religious brand brand. And the experience doesn't hold up to the logo. And that's why the brand is dying. You show up. It's all corporate suits. Like it's not die hard packers fans.

[Cameron]

It's really, I think an important thing for people to remember when it comes to branding is, is you don't let headquarters stick, handle or over manage the customer experience. Like the experience has to be authentic and good. And what happens is they've come in and just, they've tried to create non stop noise and it's, it's like a digital world in there. You can't come. You know, when you go to a baseball game, you love the sound of the crack of the bat. You know, there's some.

[Jordan]

Or there's a brand too. There's no brand of hockey anymore. Also, too hockey as a sport annoys me because it's the most rigid and behind, but also the most overconfident. Like even when you look, look and watch at football, which does have their own issues, the, the players are getting equity in these brands and these commercials and they're a larger part of the zeitgeist in the community and they're expected to have a larger role. And there's. Everything about hockey is like, it's a resistance to positive change and it's an enforcement of political big company ideologies. Like it doesn't, it doesn't match the, the community connection that it once had.

[Cameron]

Yeah, like every average citizen loves hockey in this country, but it's, it's disassociating itself from that audience member to placate kind of a corporate leader.

[Jordan]

Well, you look at the TV commercials, you look at everything about it. It's like, why. And even too like the players, like the players have been the most resistant to a personal brand. Like we don't. That's why the ohl, the WHL and the USHL do so well. It's like, it's these young guys with the future. Like there's actually like a personality there and there's like a. And then it's like it almost kills them when they get to the show because like they're just told to like, shut up and be a soldier. But it's like not, it's just.

[Cameron]

And they're rich and they're indulging themselves. What I liked what you said about is taking away the brand story from the professional sport experience. Right. It's the story of the player who got there through the player that's there, not the rest of the community. Right. It's a story of the players who got there. It's a story of, of the brand and the team, but they're not telling that story anymore.

[Jordan]

Well, you know what's so cool about the Toronto Maple Leafs is you have so many iconic players. Right?

[Cameron]

Like, you've got the Sundine Gilmore.

[Jordan]

Yeah. Doug Gilmore. Yeah. Tercy Tucker, Ty Domi. Like, and they're at every single game and they're, they're a part of the alumni association. And I think that they're just kind of like hidden away in a box to grease the donors. But, like, there's such a cool story there of the trauma. Apex is a great brand. Like, imagine how different that game time narrative would be if, like, you did a. If you showed different vignettes of the players and like, how they got here and like, talk about the OGs and like, what happened on that day 25 years ago. And like, there's just such a different way to, to shape the narrative when you're at the game. To actually instill that feeling of nostalgia like Toronto Maple Leafs should take from a luxury playbook that you're trying to instill value for the future generation. Because they're not doing that right now. And when I have kids, I'm not rushing to take them to a game because I don't find the game experience to be better than what I can offer them at home because they're just focused on things that aren't about the game.

[Cameron]

This was son taking father, but father taking son. It's not that calm environment where you can feel gravitas. It's like you don't feel legacy.

[Jordan]

You don't feel like you're proud of showing the kid, like, where they can get to.

[Cameron]

It's like corporate noise and waving a.

[Jordan]

Towel and, and everyone's rolling their eyes there. But they all work for the same big companies that do the same shit and they can't speak out and then nobody can criticize it because everyone works for the big banks. And like, it's. It's just a clusterfuck of like a branding mess. But the brand isn't there and it's why they're not winning.

[Cameron]

The other, the other thing I wanted to talk about is a trend has happened in, I know, in Canada in sports agencies and from when I talk to people who are in the military is every first intermission they parade out. Once one person is in the military and usually the person doesn't look that fit, you know, so just. And then everybody just claps. But you can tell they don't really care. They're just being told to clap for somebody. Like it's been every game.

[Jordan]

It's like been overdone.

[Cameron]

The soldiers hate it because they feel like they're a monkey paraded out, you know, for people to see. Right. And it's like the people don't, but they stand because they're obligated. And that's. Our society has become kind of obligated acknowledgments, right. Rather than real feelings or exchanges. Like when. When veterans or soldiers need recognition, there's a time, right? But to do it every game for people. Half of the people who go out there never really even saw anything interesting. They're just somebody in a uniform that you can clap for. Just. It annoys me. I think we need to relook at how we build sports experiences.

[Jordan]

Sports branding needs help. Call us. Okay, so next, let's talk about TikTok. You sent me a fantastic ad by a happened to be a local Ford dealership, but has nothing to do with this locality and everything to do with its creativity. This video's gone gangbusters. It has like millions of views, thousands of comments because they were creative. And this is a. The segment is. We're obviously gonna touch on a few different angles, but I really want the core takeaway to be that creativity wins and it's going to win more than your ad budget ever could. And I'm so sick of talking to business owners that are just looking for. They don't want to do the work, but they don't want to spend the money. And you either have to put in the time or you have to spend the cash. And it's becoming more saturated on the cash side. So it really makes the more sense to put in the time. But creativity is going to win, but.

[Cameron]

It'S where you spend the money. If you spend the money in the traditional places, like bad, bad agencies, you get sports commercials that we're seeing right now in hockey. Right. That. That are in a. In it.

[Jordan]

That's traditional. I mean, yeah, like at the tv.

[Cameron]

Inexpensive. Right.

[Jordan]

But over expensive, disgusting expensive.

[Cameron]

This video that I imagine you guys love if you watch it. But this video.

[Jordan]

Okay, so the video is called Town and Country Ford. And the whole concept is when you need a car. Row Proctor. Haha, you go to the Town and Country Ford and it's this gentleman that's like clearly a sales agent or like owns the. Or owns it. He doesn't feel like he owns it. He comes across more as like a sales agent and he's basically pretending he's doing chiropractic adjustments on the car and It's a very entertaining video and very well done with facial expressions. But it's shot on an iPhone.

[Cameron]

The guy needs a raise or he's going to get tons of sales. But this just shows you that if you encourage creative and intelligent content with 600,000 likes, millions of views, thousands of saves and tens of thousands of shares, to get that type of engagement from a billboard or another ad would cost millions. This TikTok piece of content probably cost 100 bucks. Maybe in editing, you know what I mean?

[Jordan]

After the fact it's a cap cut edit. It's like it depends what you're paying someone to do it. But like you could literally do on your phone for no money.

[Cameron]

But where if you're spending money in that case might be with somebody in the industry who's creative enough to kind of think of ideas.

[Jordan]

Yeah, that guy didn't come up with the video. Like they had a really cool like social person that is thinking out of the box and is coming out up with creative.

[Cameron]

Could have been him, we don't know. But like if that person did, he is worth gold and hopefully he gets tons of. It's just for you guys who watch it. That's what you need to do to get audience attention in a crazy saturated market.

[Jordan]

It's 2 prong it typically I would say 9 out of 10 times you do need someone like their skill set is to think creatively. Like that is a skill and it is something that is worth spending money on. And you're not going to find that from a traditional agency that's going to be more a one off or a boutique agency that can be more nimble because the whole idea is like you're testing things. You don't know what's going to blow up but you need to like keep coming out with creative concepts. But two, the other piece to this is you need someone that's going to buy into the concept. So you need those actors. And that's where like the employee generated content comes in. Because you need to have a range of people that are bought into the model. And when I'm saying like the time verse money is that I could talk to a ton of business owners that are like, yeah, like, you know, I would totally do that if it got 20 million views. But the problem is they're not prepared to show up every single day in order to get get the 20 million views. So you have to like have a really positive outlook on wanting to create that kind of content so that even if it does 5,000, you're still invested in, in growing that skill.

[Cameron]

When you say do the work too, it's way too many marketing, especially the smaller marketing agencies, they're just like, search trends. Do a trend, that's not good enough, right? If you're just doing what trends are, it's not good enough. Work with somebody or have a range of experience to know how to lift or steal like an artist from things that are working. But don't just copy trends like take them and then rep package them into something that speaks to your target market audience. I see way too many people just copying trends for, for vanity engagements that don't move the needle. But that particular Ford chiropractic thing, like, people just love that. Like, it's shared so many times. People, if they want to buy a car, will go there. Like, I would go there just because it was hilarious.

[Jordan]

The only thing that I want to push back on is very daunting for people to think at the level of that video and just by starting to do trends and to think about investing in creating content that entertains around your brand is the best first start. Like, people think that it's like zero to having that level of idea. And that takes time.

[Cameron]

You don't have to write Dr. Zhivago by yourself to start. Like, that's, that's a bit, but it's like little Russian thing there.

[Jordan]

To me. To me, it's more. When you speak to these business owners, they're outsourcing the entire process. Like, they're not involved in the game. So, like, the way that we work is like, we have really smart people that help us come up with concepts, but we're constantly being like, no. Yes, let's tweak that opposite. Opposed to, I'm gonna like, here's a dance. Do the dance, right? Like, that doesn't often work because you're not involved and you have to be involved in your brand for it to evolve.

[Cameron]

And if you want to get engagement, you generally have to do something new or relevant to your target models.

[Jordan]

You have to break the news. Like, you also have to be prepared to like, drop what you're doing and create content. Like, you just have to change. It's a total mindset shift. You have to undergo a complete mindset shift in order to, like, start thinking like this.

[Cameron]

And I think as people like doing what they did in the past, they'd rather just spend money on ad spend and not have to do that.

[Jordan]

It's easy.

[Cameron]

It's easy, but it's not as effective.

[Jordan]

Not at all. And that's why. Actually, before we move on from this topic, I done a piece on this for Coachella speaking about Revolve and it's earned media value. And the new acronym that you're seeing more and more brands talk about is emv. And the reason, like this post, is a perfect example of earned media value, because you said the amount of effectively value that, that media earned is really not comparable to anything because you would have had to spend so much money to get that many eyeballs. And would the eyeballs even have been as effective? The new term you're seeing is emv. And a lot of brands that are really investing in their community or in activations, they're not looking for a clear roi. They're quantifying it through earned media value. So Revolve spends so much money at Coachella because that maintains its status throughout the year. Like they might spend $9 million, but their earned media value of how many eyeballs, how many people were there, how much impressions they got, how much engagement, brand elevation they can quantify that number to be. I'm throwing this out there. Let's say it's 16 or 25 million. That return on investment, even though it's earned media value is worth a lot of money to brands because that's really all you can go off of when you're just trying to compete like in a scrappy space. Like, like if you're trying to cut through the noise, that's worth a lot of money.

[Cameron]

Let me ask you a question based on your social media masterclass pillars. One, if you could just tell us where that Ford video would fall in it. Because I think a lot of people would think, well, wait, he's saying he's a chiropractor. Doesn't that mean that there's something wrong with the Fords? Like, you know how people are like, oh, I have to fix it. Like, we can't say that there's anything wrong with it.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Cameron]

As opposed to what he does by, by completely mimicking what a chiropractor, like, you know, kind of over figure skating dancing, what chiropractors do that make it.

[Jordan]

Enjoyable also, like low key, making fun of the profession.

[Cameron]

Yes.

[Jordan]

So that's the entertain pillar. And the way that you rate the entertain pillar, the KPI is by engagement. So it should be impressions and engagement. So the number of people that engaged in it, how many eyeballs it got. And the reason that KPI is relevant is it's going to take you a lot more time to come up with that concept to shoot that concept, to edit that concept, that if you don't have that KPI of engagement, which is the gold metric on social media, likes, comments, shares and saves, it wasn't worth your time. So that's an entertain pillar. So right now, for a brand, we're doing a big launch and we're actually doing a full, like, seven days out social series. And the whole idea is, like, we're actually showcasing and maybe embellishing how crazy it is seven days before we open the doors.

[Cameron]

And.

[Jordan]

And the reason why I'm loving working with this brand is they're not sensitive to all of those. Like, but what about this? What about that? Like, that's the way to, like, just kill the idea. I'm actually listening to this book right now. Play Bigger. It's a fantastic book for business owners. And he goes. It's like towards the end of the book, he's like, when you see a document that's like, on round 21 of revisions, like, anything that was good in there has died. And that's the same thing. It's like, people don't care. They don't care. And if you have people commenting being like, how dare you make fun of chiropractors. Amazing. You broke through the algorithm and you can respond to them one on one and be like, we're just, you know, poking fun. We're having a. Like, people that are overthinking on all of these concepts is why you're behind and why you're not winning. And you need to just.

[Cameron]

But they've been taught to be careful, compliant, and safe. And it's almost like everybody has only been given approved themes that you can talk about. And it's. It's so holding you back.

[Jordan]

No, but you know what, though? I love that. I love that. Because the people that want to keep thinking that way is that is why our clients are winning.

[Cameron]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

It's why our clients are breaking through. It's why they're getting the business and it's why they're spending way less money. Because nobody very small percentage of people are gonna watch that video and be like, I will never buy a Ford from you because how dare you have a. Make a skit about the silence of the back cracking. The seriousness of going in to crack someone's back, like, actually just makes me.

[Cameron]

Want to do the actual video.

[Jordan]

Those four people would leave a bad review no matter if you named your first child after them. So we don't want them anyways.

[Cameron]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

And that's the way that you have to think is that what I've learned in this journey that you've really pushed me through, like being more of yourself, it's only introduced me to more people that allow me to love my life more because it self selects out the people that we wouldn't align and that's life. There's how many billions of people in the planet, they don't all have to love you. And if they all love you, shit, you've got like Mother Teresa pr. Because I don't know how you've done that. It's impossible in today's landscape.

[Cameron]

Well, that's a good point I think for you because I know you're a mentor to a lot of, of professionals, young professionals. It's like by being the real you, you actually improve your life because you actually get to meet people who like the real you. But when you're just kind of playing by the rules and being fake, one, you're not being effective, but two, you're not meeting people who value you.

[Jordan]

But you also are just purely improving. Like improving in every sense of the word. Because if I test something that is authentic to the way that I'm thinking and I'm feeling and it's not well received, now I've got an opportunity to grow. I have an opportunity to shape and change my perspective. And I have an idea to like how you feel about that and that that's like the true. You shouldn't stop growing. It's like we become an adult and then we become afraid to say anything when we don't even know how it's going to be received. And like half the stuff that I thought was going to be like, like would go one way is like we, we dropped a video on Friday and it was like the commercials video and I was like waiting. I was like oh my gosh, here we go. Friday, going into the long weekend we're dropping a controversial one and there was like 10 comments of like thank you for finally saying this. We totally agree. And it's like funny the things that we learn from on the other side too. So you have to be prepared to be you.

[Cameron]

Very good. Is that a good segment into gingers are now black?

[Jordan]

Yeah, let's do it. Well there's. So we got this morning our in house Gen Z or resident Gen Z Katya, she shared us this like major TikTok trend that there's now this big movement where gingers have been accepted into the black community because gingers are now black.

[Cameron]

Oh. Or they've been told there but it to me it's interesting because there's a weird conflation of a bunch of things going on, right? Like the original video went to 50 million people or something because they said something that was controversial and that didn't really make sense. But it's interesting how the zeitgeist, it gets picked up and so you have some people kind of saying, oh my God, now I feel so included, like literally beating themselves up, like just a ridiculous segment of non performing human beings that really are just oxygen thieves doing that. I love that phrase. But then there's another segment of the population that just loves making fun of it. So they got their like ginger kids in the back like making fun of it. But people are desperate to be entertained by things that are kind of authentic. And humor comes from nuance and complexities. Right. And that there's kind of a death of comedy in the world right now because comedians aren't really being allowed to make any jokes in many cases. But you know, we're seeing it on TikTok in terms of how people are responding to zeitgeist and making fun of things.

[Jordan]

Well, I think the takeaway for this is there's never, there's no longer a limit to what will break through. And it's also showing you that ridiculous things ride the algorithm. And the takeaway is the stuff that's neutral, the stuff that's simple is just, it's not interesting. And you, you have to realize like you're competing with a river and there's just so much content that's like competing on the river. And you need to create something that makes your idea pop out like a life raft. Like you have to have people that want to jump on your content because there's just so much flowing through. Like every time I do this as a test sometime, like I open my explore page and I just like hit refresh and I just see like all of the squares, like they all just completely change into like it's just unlimited. Like there's, there's for your piece of content to reach, like it's crazy that you actually need to as a ginger say that you're black. Like it's that crazy. But it's. But the point of the takeaway as a business owner is don't obviously follow those trends, but realize that you have to exist in a space where you have to say something that's different and.

[Cameron]

Shocking depending on the business owner or what their scale is. You don't have to follow all of the trends unless follow the trends that are relevant to your target Market audience, right? Like you don't need 50 million views, but you need to say something interesting to the people who may want to consume your content. And if you do it well, the algorithm will find people and then they'll share it and like it and it can grow. You just gotta keep trying. But if you play it safe, you're getting nowhere. And it's just another cash barbecue.

[Jordan]

But it's also a great way for you to ride trends. Like, not this one specifically, but there's like ways for you to stitch things or do a floating head or to provide your own commentary or thought leadership.

[Cameron]

Or like, it's where though it's actually a skill set that's harder to kind of come by than it sounds like. Right. Because you really need a range of human experience and understand human. But I always, for some reason, whenever we talk, I always think of a coffee shop, what they could do and depending on the, I would do a video of how would we respond if Donald Trump came into our coffee shop and have him come in. And then you could kind of show like some of your clients going like this, you know, like you could just capture something that would probably get engagement and then it would showcase your coffee shop and what you kind of represent. But also, you know, where you sit on issues and your, your ability to laugh at yourself or whatever.

[Jordan]

Like, what I love about what you're saying is I don't want to minimize the creativity that's required and like the skill. But also the average person is not focusing on it. Like, they're not putting aside an hour to brainstorm on, like, what kind of a piece. Like, coming up with that concept isn't complicated. It's that people just expect virality to like hit them, you know, like, I've hired someone. You know, I did my 30 minutes of speaking to my phone and I begrudged every minute of it. Then the minute my four videos were recorded, I closed and I got to my emails. Like, these ideas aren't going to come to you unless you're in the game.

[Cameron]

And when you talked about trends, I think how I would build onto that is if you're a dress shop, like I would just search dress shops in a different town and see what's performing the best. And then you can kind of replicate. You don't have to recreate an original manifesto every time, but like, you need to be looking at lots of things. And when you say focus, that's it. You need to actually focus on what is working in industries similar to yours and then repurposing it. But the ROI on that is huge compared to traditional ad spend.

[Jordan]

Well, especially too the average person isn't talking to other people about these issues, right? Like the dumbness they feel, you know, like by not like that, it's just a young person thing. And it's interesting, the average person that reaches out to me, they're struggling with the exact same thing that you are. They've just gone down the process further. So it's people that have 10, 20, 30,000 followers, but it's just, it's even in those lanes to get stuck doing the same thing. And often when I look at it, I'm like, okay, here's four other five other pieces of content that you should consider. And they're like, based on that one hour call, they're like, that's perfect. That's just what I needed. And then I see their page like scale and, and I even need it too. Like that's the thing is that it's not like you're not alone, you're not dumb. Like it's this is normal and you need to like sit down and map it out and question yourself and use ChatGPT as if it was your social therapist. Like try to find ways to break through and to do new things that are creative.

[Cameron]

You know, we were, we were doing a coaching seminar over the weekend to a bunch of very successful business guys and I think you really knocked it out of the park with your talk on what a brand is. From a brand to a good brand to a great brand. And what I really think you should share with the audience is, is how important a brand is to scaling and the way that you put laid it out there, everybody was blown away. And so I thought what, what were you impressed with by the feedback from the about that discussion?

[Jordan]

It's interesting how simple things can seem to you and how mind blowing they can be to other people. My biggest realization is that it's no mistake that the businesses that do the best have great brands, right? And it's that Tony Robbins quote, it's success leads clues, right? And so many business owners want to resist brand because like that comes the least natural to them. It seems expensive, it seems frivolous. It's just a place where people can spend money and a lot of business owners can respect the brand, but they don't know where to, where to start. And the big.

[Cameron]

Before you go into your explanation of how our brand grows, what I thought was fascinating is watching these business owners, these founders who have busted their butt to make a Business of revenue of 5 to 20 million or whatever. And they've done it by force of will. And then they come up and they're like, I don't believe in brand. And I'm like, well, what are you known for in the industry? Well, being the first on the site to get the job done. Right. Paying our bills on time. Right. Making sure the site is left cleaner than we found it. And then you're like that's your brand. That's why you're doing well. You're just not messaging it so that you can grow. And I thought that was really interesting, is that they actually have a brand by virtue of how they've grown their business, why they're successful. But they don't think they have a brand because they think it's some sort of airy fairy marketing thing that they don't need to focus on.

[Jordan]

That's actually not what I said. That's a part of your brand, but it's, that's not a scalable part of your brand. And that's why a lot of these founders were stuck. Is that to operate a good business and to have strong values are integral aspects of a great brand.

[Cameron]

But you said that was their brand reputation.

[Jordan]

Yeah, reputation.

[Cameron]

And that's kind of what a brand is, is your reputation.

[Jordan]

It is, but it's also like that's also where you'll be stuck at a good brand level. Right.

[Cameron]

And nobody else can see it by word of mouth. Right. But these guys wanted to scale our girls to like 100 million dollar company. And that's why I think they really resonated with your talk.

[Jordan]

But what they're frustrated that they can't scale past 20 million but they also aren't prepared to do anything different. And it's like that, you know, getting to 100 million doesn't just like fall out of the sky for you, like requires. That's what most people miss is that they underestimate the value and importance of humans and visuals. Right. Like you need to have the strong visuals in addition to those foundational principles. And that's actually what's interesting is it's really fun working with those like Scrappy have like made it and built great businesses in these boring industries because they don't focus on the glamour. The average issue that I face is people who are so focused on like the packaging and the website and the logo but don't have strong operations. And that's where like our partnership with Strategic 9 on like the business and branding is so strong is I'm Often in a position where I'm giving you business advice when you hired me for branding, but like the branding can't take you where your business needs to be. But it's really interesting when your business is well run but you don't have those branding pieces.

[Cameron]

And then like you rushed through that a bit because that was amazing. We're often hired by people who are like, we have a brand problem. And you're like, no, we have a business problem. You're run by a committee, you can't.

[Jordan]

Make any decisions, you're spending way too much money. Your product, your consistency isn't there, you don't have it. Like even things like experience when you talk about like paying your bills on time, like to be known for that for 20 years, to be consistent in that, that is like worth so much. It gets easy for me to create for you at a fantastic socials.

[Cameron]

So it's a gift, gift to, to work with a business that has worked through all of their problems to succeed. Right. Because it's, it's survival of the fittest. If, let's take construction for example. Like if you end up getting to the point where you're at that level, you survive because of something. Generally your business is running okay.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Cameron]

Right.

[Jordan]

And so but like honestly if you, I'm at a point now where like I, I can't, I just, I don't have time for you. Like I can't speak to you if your business isn't being run properly and you're in a branding piece. But what's so interesting about these people is that they can truly 10x100x their business with a good brand because they've.

[Cameron]

Done already the, the hard work, the.

[Jordan]

Stuff that's like I can't come in and do quickly for you, like I can't build you a reputation over 20 years in a six month contract, but I can build you a great website, I can give you great socials.

[Cameron]

But if you have that reputation built right. We can then take that and through creative and brand now message it so that they can be, they can expand into other jurisdictions, other marketplaces because they have the foundation of a great brand, they're a good brand at that point. Why don't you explain that?

[Jordan]

Yeah, So I have three different levels of a brand and the reason why I differentiate between the three levels of a brand is the word brand was so overwhelming and it became very difficult for business owners to differentiate where their problems was. And I found over studying hundreds of brands that there are three categories of brands and within each category, they have their own limitations, they have their own problems, and they really should be defined differently. So there's. The first status is like a brand. And that's like your local coffee shop or like a local smoothie shop or somewhere that you buy from, usually based on convenience. It's not absolutely incredible. It's more like it's good enough because it's close by and they have issues on consistency and they have issues on their overall experience. Their branding is like, their logo is often not great. It's like the smoothie place we buy smoothies from. You know, like I, I go there because they're down the street. You know, like, I don't go there because it's like absolutely fantastic. The next level is a good brand. And this is where most businesses sit. So a good brand is, is defined by the four core pillars, which is they have a good product, they have a good story, they have a good experience, and they're consistent. Now, what most people miss, especially why there's a brand versus a good brand status, is that you can have, it's like a local restaurant, you know, you can have a great dinner, but if it's not fantastic every single time, you're not a good brand because you lack consist. Also, like, you can have a good product, but like, if you don't have a fantastic story, if you haven't worked through that message, if the average customer doesn't know that you're in this because of X, Y and Z, you're not a good brand. Like, you don't have those pieces that really make people loyal. Most brands exist in the good brand category for two reasons. One, they haven't had enough time to become great, to graduate to that third level because really the variable of time is super important in becoming a great brand.

[Cameron]

I also think because the numbers are nine out of ten businesses fail in their first year. Year.

[Jordan]

Oh, yeah.

[Cameron]

And so, but that's our brand, their brand. They don't get to a great brand by virtue of how they operate.

[Jordan]

No, they don't get to a good brand.

[Cameron]

Yeah, they don't get to a good brand because they're not. You know what I mean? And so that's why most are in good brand.

[Jordan]

So like the good brand status has the most businesses and it's based on those pillars. Straightforward. A great brand is like the level of branding you want to achieve. That's like the Trader Joe's, that's the BMW, that's the Ikea. These are the brands or in any.

[Cameron]

Industry think of any industry. You know, the kind of icons, Broccolini.

[Jordan]

Waste management, John Deere. Like, they've always existed for time. Like, time is on their side because they've perfected having a great product, they have a great story, they have great experience, and they're consistent. And that's what makes a brand great. And that's what gets you ultimately to a brand as religion. Like, where it's, like where it's. As a shared understanding from a large group of people, and that's where you want to get to. The reason why I have these three levels of a brand is because I hear all the time this, like, like mom and pop. Nobody be like, hey, you know, like, what's your competitor? Like Chipotle? Yeah, like, Chipotle's not your competitor. Are you good? Like, did you have a drink this morning? Like, it's, it's Chipotle's not your competitor. Like, Chipotle.

[Cameron]

Like, I think I did have a drink this morning.

[Jordan]

Got carrot juice, I ordered it for us. And a smoothie. We're powered up from our brand smoothie shop down the street. But yeah, those are the three different levels of a brand. And for most of these businesses, they exist in a good brand category, but with some simple tweaks, they really should be a great brand. And it's not that the elements aren't there, it's that the visual cues are so important because the, the opportunity costs. Like, it was the stat on my presentation was like, I think it's 76, but it could be 76 or 82 because both numbers are coming to my mind. And it's of all generations, like, not Gen Z's, not millennials. All generations, from like, like baby boomers to Gen X's make their first search on social media before deciding to buy from a. From a brand or from a service. So all of these businesses that have all of this money, 5 to 20 million per year, who've existed, who don't have websites or shitty outdated sites, and like, no socials are losing so much business. Even I was looking for a gardener. I Googled like gardener near me. The websites were so bad, there was no photos to go off of. I had to pick the best from the worst. And those four others could be way better than the one I decided to get a quote from.

[Cameron]

I thought you would have gone on Instagram first or Tick tock to.

[Jordan]

The only reason why I didn't is because we're outside of the major city center and I don't expect them to have instagram So I went through like the Google Photos. Otherwise I would go through Instagram because cuz I'm outside of the city center, I haven't. This is what secondary market where they really fail. They don't have good Instagrams and they don't have good websites, so it's really, really hurting them.

[Cameron]

A landscaping company can come to us and I can make them sing just by showing what's playing.

[Jordan]

We would like eat everybody's lunch. I think honestly we should just create like 14 different businesses just so we can like kill it in every market. Yeah.

[Cameron]

What I found really inspiring from this meeting, there's like 35 founders there who are accomplished humans. And a couple of them came up to me while you were sidebarring and they're like, you know, I only ever thought it was word of mouth. I did so well just based on word of mouth. And I'm like, well you're not aware of how many this guy was selling services to governments, right? How many people in the government may have searched you on LinkedIn and not liked what they saw there or may have tried to look you up and didn't like what you saw because they didn't know you. So you don't see the people who don't hire you, you only see the people who hire you. And because they're word of mouth, you think that's working, but you don't know what you're leaving on the table. And if you want to scale, you actually have to create a brand that lessens the amount of people who don't hire you because you don't have a visible good brand.

[Jordan]

I'm just kind of confused by that.

[Cameron]

What, what about it?

[Jordan]

Like, what would they be posting on LinkedIn? They're probably not posting on LinkedIn.

[Cameron]

No, but you have to like if I'm a, if I'm a concrete company who's selling my services to municipalities, right. There is a buyer in the government who makes a decision on who they're going to put RFPs out to and who are going to do so. So if these people are researching you online and you have no online presence, your word of mouth referral is limited. You don't know how many municipalities didn't send something to you or discounted you because they couldn't find you. So what these guys don't know is they don't know how much business they're losing by not having a great brand.

[Jordan]

Oh, totally. Yeah. I mean the opportunity cost is ma. The opportunity cost is everything because there's a point where you can grow based on word of mouth is important. Like referral based business is important. But also the world has really changed, you know, like especially when you're in a volatile market, right? You're up, you're down. Like relying on word of mouth is also a way to really like chokehold your business during a down market because you're limiting who can refer you versus if you have now a proven fact that people search you online. So if you don't have an up to date modern website, an up to date modern Google panel, you don't have strong socials that are going out a few times a week, week. You're losing so much business and you'll never know it. Like those other gardeners that I didn't click. Like they'll never know it. And I could have been a customer for them for years and I could have referred them 20 people. So let's also, I mean that talk had so much great stuff out of it. We're actually going to be clipping it to put it on socials. But I would love for you to do a segment on the leadership stuff that you talked about because leadership in branding is super important. There's nobody talking about that.

[Cameron]

Where I resonated with them is everybody can remember somebody who's inspiring as a leader, but it's mostly war movies or politicians or something. But within your business, if you've got a good brand, it's probably because something about your leadership forced something to happen that humans didn't want to do. Like your employees. Right? Which is do the extra mile to clean up, do the extra customer service, make sure things are done properly. And I don't think we talk enough about how the founders leadership is really critical to getting to a good brand, but then especially to get to a great brand because you have to assert your will onto hundreds of people. Sometimes to act in a way that represents your values and that is really difficult to do. And I think there's not enough training people get on how to lead and inspire people. And that's why I love and I teach intent based leadership in terms of how to lead people when you're scaling and the example I'd share with the audience. When I was a young captain, a new colonel came in and took over the battalion of a thousand hardcore soldiers. And everybody had been used to people coming in and just yapping about themselves. And this guy just walked up and it made the biggest impact on a unit I've ever seen over the year. He just said, you guys are busy I'm not going to tell you about myself. I'm not going to waste your time. He goes, I want you to remember three things while I command this battalion. Be bold, use your initiative, and accept the occasional unfairness of military life. That's it. When you face a decision, do those three things and we'll kick ass the next two years. And he just left. But then a month or two later you could hear soldiers kind of complaining and the sergeant would go, accept the occasional unfairness of military life. Be bold, use your initiative, fake it. And everybody was saying it. But the power of leadership and messaging transformed that battalion from one that really wasn't bold and was full of complainers into one that was very dynamic. And you didn't, you didn't kind of toxify your environment by having everybody complain that sometimes things are unfair. They just focused on the mission. And that's what founders need to do to get to a great brand.

[Jordan]

I think I also love the idea of like intent based brand leadership. I think that's a whole offshoot though. So it ties back to our tick tock concept that if you're not gripping your own brand, whose else's job is it? And I'm constantly in this kind of predicament, you know, where I want to blame the marketers, I want to blame the agencies, like, yes, they have a job, but it's also a very odd world that a business can completely ignore and outsource quite literally one of the most important aspects of their business, if not the most important aspect. And if you don't have intent based brand leadership, like if you don't have a pulse on social media, if you haven't learned the 10 minutes it takes to make a cap cut template, whose fault is it that your brand isn't thriving?

[Cameron]

Yeah, and intent based leadership is a fairly simple, but you know, it was a dynamic concept. It's adopted by the best militaries in the world. It's not authoritarian, dictatorial leadership where nobody feels empowered to make a decision. It's the leader, the founder, the commander says, my intent is to achieve X.

[Jordan]

How do I get there?

[Cameron]

Right? And then so delegated leaders underneath, if they're faced with a decision that requires immediate action, they ask themselves, what is my leader's intent and what would my leader want me to do? Not what have I been told I can do? Like, and that's the example what we talked about last week. Oh, here's a policy. So I say no to somebody. But if you understand the leader, founders or commander's intent. You can empower your people to emphasize your brand through action at, at the ground level. Right. Not in the corporate, you know, committee level. It's very powerful.

[Jordan]

Well, it's funny, I read it actually in the Tim Ferriss book, I think. No, maybe it was another book. But I said this to, even to Jasmine. I'm like, you have the ability to make a decision up to 100 bucks. Because like, sometimes I'll be in meetings and just be like, hey, Cam, like, I need to get this pro. We transfer. Like, I need to transfer all this. And I'm like, you guys have the ability to make a decision. And I think in his it was like up to 500 bucks. But the issue is that, like, we don't really need that on. On the day to day. So I was like, within the parameters of what you. Like that's fair. Within what she typically needs, like 20 bucks here, 20 bucks there. I'm like, make the call. If you feel like you needed to get your job done, you have the ability to make the call. But I, I also want to even pull on those three cool commands that you got from that gentleman, even for the third one of like, embrace the suck. You know, embrace the reality that it's not always going to be fair. So often I, it's like, you know, I'm too old. I don't have time for social. Like, I go on and it's just. Just embrace the reality that it's. It's going to be uncomfortable that you're going to have to learn how to use this. But like, the people that accept that and have that change in mindset or who's going to win, that's it. It's that simple.

[Cameron]

Very powerful. In an organization where people want to complain. If you can use those three, those three things, you can actually really transform your. Your organization.

[Jordan]

Yeah. Yeah, you can. All right, let's. I want to quickly talk about the death of Eurovision and award shows. We have a difference of opinion on this. So Eurovision is under fire right now because basically these like creators that don't sing, that never sing, Enter Tommy Cash are using it as like a hack stage to get tick tock virality.

[Cameron]

I actually like that Macchiato song. Like, I was singing it for the rest of the day after you filmed me the video.

[Jordan]

You don't actually remember, like, you know what I mean? Like, it used to be like, where you would get real singers from.

[Cameron]

It was like falsettos and sopranos. I don't know.

[Jordan]

Like, no, I. It would be like like you would hear a full tune and then they'd become like global pop stars. It wouldn't be like a, like a TikTok clip to like people to riff off of. Because his whole strategy was brilliant. Like the video was so entertaining and he did so many TikTok content pieces where he was like being kicked out of Eurovision and he's like Italian for.

[Cameron]

Arresting him for criticizing Macchiato's. But he has become a global pop star.

[Jordan]

Well, he's become a global TikTok star. He's been invited to fashion shows for a long time. He's a fashion icon. I see this, this as a larger issue from the focus on views and the erosion of brand and I want to compare it to Met Gala. So this year the Met Gala did a very good job. It was received as one of the best, if not the best year of Met Gala, which is crazy considering everything else that's going on. But because the basically the owners went back to kind of the original principles. So they only invited influencers that were truly almost celebrity relevant, opposed to a, a few years ago of just inviting like YouTubers and like just kind of ruining the cachet to the brand. Like they've adapted in a way that holds true to the brand and it allowed for all of the participants to uphold the brand and it allowed all the people that were watching it to also like it. There really felt like there was a clear Met Gala brand.

[Cameron]

Could you tell me what the Met Gala is an award show for?

[Jordan]

It's not an award show, but it represents to me that same kind of like moment in time that award shows represent. And it was originally put together as like a charity for the Met. And Anna Wintour ended up in New York City. Yeah, New York City. And Anna Wintour ended up taking it over in like 1995. And it really became this like cultural kind of moment and people kind of vote on like, whose outfit was the best. So it has like that kind of like the red carpet. The red carpet. But to me, like, when you think of the Oscars and the Grammys and the like, all of these award shows have lost their cachet because they've forgotten their brand, you know, And I feel like Eurovision has fallen into that because it was. It represented a place in Europe where the countries kind of were really proud of their country. They all had a singer they got behind, they voted for it. Like there was this whole cachet. And now it's like these people who don't sing who are trying to get tick tock views and it's just, it's no longer about what it once was.

[Cameron]

I'm most familiar with the Oscars and the grammar Grammys, right. And I think in the old days where TV channels were somewhat limited and access to movies were limited, like we were, we were infatuated with the, the inaccessibility of some celebrities. And so you would see them there and then you would, you would see the award. But they've, they've now transformed these awards shows into kind of virtue signaling festivals of self. Congratulations. And they take way too long and you can't keep people's attention. It's just not that interesting to have a three and a half hour Oscars.

[Jordan]

True.

[Cameron]

When the movies aren't that good now and then I got to listen to Robert De Niro tell me how to vote as opposed to, you know, you know, like what's going on in the acting world. So I think that's actually pushing people away and ruining what the award ceremony is supposed to be. It's supposed to award excellence. It's not supposed to be political, it's not to be. But Eurovision, to me it's a fascinating thing to study because it has been a national pride and Europe has. Europe has always competed amongst the countries ways and because the country has the, the decision to choose who represents them, it also reflects the brand of the country. And so when you watch Eurovision, I love it because I get to see, you know, what the country thinks of itself in a way, right? Because. But where it kind of sucks is sometimes you'll have. There was that beautiful girl from France, that young girl who sung that song that went nuts on the Internet. I showed you. It was so moving, it made the.

[Jordan]

Crowd cry sick or something.

[Cameron]

Yeah, that was special. Spectacular. But then they'll lose because of votes to somebody who's doing party tricks, you know what I mean? And being a little ridiculous, like. So that's where it's kind of unfair. But I don't think it undermines it because it still shows the brand. Like in winning it is based on votes in some ways, which, you know, the masses don't always vote for the best wine or the best steak, you know, so. But I love that it gives the countries an opportunity to showcase their brand in terms of what's important to them. I like it because to me it's almost like an Olympics of national identity and Europe and it can be ridiculous, but if it's ridiculous, it's because the country choose to. Chose to put somebody ridiculous to represent them in Eurovision.

[Jordan]

It's about the longevity of the brand versus, like the short term dopamine hit, you know, like if the country is voting, Tommy Cash is a very famous and well known like on the world stage. It's funny, someone from Estonia commented on my post about Skype, you know, going bankrupt and he's like, when people, when you'd say you're from Estonia and people are like, you know, where is that? Or like. And they're like, well, we created Skype and like, that was kind of their like, like moment. And to me, it seems based on me hearing that a few times on some, on some posts, to me it was like, Tommy Cash is their way of, like, this is someone, you know, that comes from my country. And that to us is like, we just want to like have that awareness. People want to know who we are.

[Cameron]

But let's go back to leadership. If that country chooses Tommy Cash, that's the brand that they're showcasing to the world. Where else do you hear about Estonia, you know what I mean? That you see it in Eurovision, right. That's probably the best stage for smaller countries. Right. And so there's a leadership element between the brand. Whereas I imagine Estonia has some phenomenal singers and cultural things that they could bring people to tears with.

[Jordan]

No. And they picked Tommy Cash. I don't disagree with what you're thinking and obviously it comes down to. There's obviously parameters that allowing this to slip in. I just think it's an interesting brand conversation when things are becoming more flipping and flippant and fleeting. Where does that go for Eurovision in 10 to 15 years? To me it's trending on the decline because it's just, it's not that relevant if they're just putting like. And being famous on TikTok isn't nothing. I don't. I'm not disparaging because you've got a lot of followers on TikTok. I think it's. What. What are you known for on Tik Tok? So if you're known for like disrupting fashion shows and you don't sing.

[Cameron]

Yeah, you get known for a few things. Yeah, you get known. If you barf all over yourself at a wedding, you get known for yourself. If you write a good book, like there's. You can get known by doing a bunch of things.

[Jordan]

I haven't done that.

[Cameron]

I wasn't saying.

[Jordan]

I know.

[Cameron]

Maybe in first class. That's a different story.

[Jordan]

Story for another time, guys. Okay, let's talk about this week's head or not. It's going to be Actually controversial. There's two things you want to touch on. One is this is going to be less relevant to a bunch of people. But I do want to touch on it. So Ballerina Farmer, a probably the most famous farmer's wife. Her name is Ballerina Farmer. She's got crazy followers on Instagram. Anyways, her husband. So they become famous because she was a Miss Universe winner. She married. They have a very traditional family. She has like six or seven children that she's like natural birth, all of them. And her husband owns like JetBlue. But they like. So they're very wealthy, but they like very much live this like fabulous but very country traditional life. She's now partnered in a collaboration with Nara Smith, who is the. Like, I like was. My husband was craving hot dogs, so I went and made everything for the hot dog. Watch me in this dress. And they did a collaboration together. That was the best way for me to explain it.

[Cameron]

It was wonderful.

[Jordan]

Thank you. And I wanted to touch on this because it is interesting that it, it got so much virality and that it blew up. And there's actually something to learn from it because there's this kind of, this underlying controversy that they represent this kind of traditional suppressed femininity that you don't typically see anymore, especially not on social media. And they're both private about their traditional lives and their traditional roles. And there's been a lot of expose, especially on the Ballerina Farmer because Miss Universe is less that trad brand. It's kind of very much like over beautifying, kind of sexualizing women. So it's kind of interesting that she went from that to like.

[Cameron]

Well, it's a very southern brand though, like where pageants are huge in the south and traditional marriage is huge.

[Jordan]

Yeah, true. But the, but it, but it doesn't, it doesn't completely go for how traditional she is now.

[Cameron]

It's a story that resonates with a certain political sphere. Right. But. And so to collab with somebody who is also there, I think what, what is interesting is the amount of hate that they can get for that. Yeah. And the takeaway that I have is lean into the haters. Like, it just makes sense.

[Jordan]

Well, that's what she's doing.

[Cameron]

Yeah. And I'm sure there would. If they would have had a marketing agency, they would have said, no, you should bring on Tylan Mulvaney, you know what I mean? And do something. No. You know, well, somebody told Bud Light to use Dylan Mulvaney.

[Jordan]

So that's not Ballerina Farmer's brand, but.

[Cameron]

It wasn't Bud Light's brand either. So I'm just saying that there's a bunch of people that would tell you expand your audience, go and reach out to markets that, you know what I mean. But what she did was double down on her market, encouraging haters. And there was a great phrase I've had said to me once, if you're going to pay the piper anyway, you might as well dance and people are going to hate you anyhow. So don't try to make them not hate you. You know what I mean by, by trying to placate people who would never like you anyhow.

[Jordan]

Agreed.

[Cameron]

If you pay the piper and they hate you, dance to your own tune and bring more people into your tribe.

[Jordan]

Well, that's why it was so intelligent. Like honestly, that whole family has done marketing so well because for me it's so fascinating to observe life through their lens. Like I don't know if they're playing it up more and I think that's kind of the question is not that it's, I don't think anyone doesn't question that it is or is not authentic, but they're really doubling down on this aesthetic, on this like vibe because they.

[Cameron]

Have the courage to be themselves.

[Jordan]

Well, it's even more than that because they own JetBlue. Like they have so much money but they have like an old fashioned like wood fire oven. Like there's just kind of this piece to it where it's like, but it's like the most expensive of the oven. So it's like there's something, it's really actually beautifully fascinating to consume. And the same thing with Nara Smith. It's like, is she doing this herself? Is like who's behind it? Did she want to do this? Because she seems super like introverted and quiet. But the reason why it's so brilliant is actually ballerina farmer launch launched a brick and mortar. So you can tell that she did this collab to get noise on both sides because they actually launched a store. So she's making mistakes.

[Cameron]

Why I like that is it comes easy to identify where you should open your brick and mortar, right? Like when you do that in your comments. Like, so now you know where you're going to be well, well received and so you can actually increase the chance of success because you, you're now creating haters and lovers and you'll know exactly where to open up your, your expansion store.

[Jordan]

The other thing too that's really interesting about her brand is she's controversial without actually giving Anything controversial away.

[Cameron]

She's not hateful.

[Jordan]

She's not hateful. They don't really give away any private. They're very private. They show their life in a very selective like curated manner. And even with working with that big agriculture podcast and those two agriculture influencers, there's a lot of the dairy. So they've created this whole dairy farm and the dairy practices that they use, I don't know more information in this are actually kind of the most controversial about their brand. Like the tech they purchase, like how they did it, like it was like the most expensive that it could be, which is typically like unrelatable to the average like dairy farmer. And she doesn't talk about any of it, she doesn't post any of it. So she's very selective in her controversy. And it's interesting. Same thing with Nara Smith. They give nothing away. They don't even show it. Like Nara Smith doesn't even show her kids faces. And it's interesting that their lack of even showing anything is controversial in the face of it. But how well it does to double down on just being you.

[Cameron]

Our society is, is infected with anxiety. Like I feel everybody has anxiety. I feel like everybody has anxiety. But the beauty of what these guys are doing or is they don't care about what other people think about themselves. Right. They're just kind of, they're not restricted by anxiety. Like Norris, she's just doing something she wants to do. Right. Doesn't work. Like, and I see way too many business owners, like anxiety is really holding them back from them when it doesn't exist. Yeah.

[Jordan]

When it's not there, nobody really cares.

[Cameron]

Cares in the end.

[Jordan]

Well, it's interesting. I wonder if people would care if, if ballerina farmer showed more. You know, like it's. To me it's so surprising that it's so controversial and she's just living her life like they're making their own decisions.

[Cameron]

And that's the beauty of it though.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Cameron]

Like it's controversial and she's just living her life and the people who are attacking her are telling everybody that people, other people should be able to live their life.

[Jordan]

I know, it's like it's like she's got seven kids. Like she's happy. Like let them live. Like, yeah, I loved watching their pages. But anyway, so that was kind of the. On the hot or not. I'm assuming that you think that's a hot collab. We like it's a great hot.

[Cameron]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

All right, we're, we're into that next one. Is Diddy and Cassie. And I think that there's a really interesting angle that we can touch here for brand and a very controversial and heated topic. Let's take it away. Rogue lawyer.

[Cameron]

In the old days you could get away with having an outward facing brand but live your life different because there was, there was a little bit more privacy exclusivity to, to celebrities or to founders. But today if you're a founder and you're kind of saying this is my brand but you're not living it, it's just a matter of time until you're going to be exposed. So you really can't have two, two alternate, alternate universes. You kind of have to double down on what your brand is. Yeah, I guess if P. Diddy would have doubled down on his actual brand earlier, he might have been in jail earlier.

[Jordan]

So. No, but I think it's relevant though to talk about the, the PR crisis is to come. You know, like we live in, it's like, it's scary. I mean it's obviously great that this evil human was exposed but it's, he's an extreme and he allows us to talk about something controversial. But for the average person like you, you really need to be prepared for the potentiality of a PR crisis and that's why it actually the other than if you're Diddy is to be authentic to who you are and to double down on it because it doesn't hurt you if you lay it out.

[Cameron]

I think what we can learn from this, and I've done done some PR crisis management is most of the, the traditional PR companies are risk adverse and so they, they really just tell you to, to, to hide, you know what I mean? And huddle up. Whereas if you are actually not a criminal and you're just authentic to your brand and something happened, that's a mistake. You can actually get ahead of it by announcing it and, and getting the hits early because the attention span is so short in society that if you actually get ahead of it, take ownership of it, say you're going to deal with it in a week, it'll be forgotten. What happens is too many times people like hide from it, say nonsense and it gets exposed and it undermines the brand because this guy's got nothing to lose, right? So he's just saying whatever. But for companies and founders and people who need to deal with a PR crisis, you really need good advice in terms of sticking to your core principles and not being scared of the criticism.

[Jordan]

Well, I think a big thing for PR crisis is they're often managed wrong. I got to see one firsthand for a grocery store that we worked with during COVID and the advice was given was like, apologize, apologize, apologize, and then shut up and let it blow over. And it really allows a manipulation of the narrative that it doesn't work in your favor. Like, it goes back to our whole conversation of, like, you can't be canceled if you have an uncancelable mindset, right? Like, like, shit's gonna happen the bigger you get, especially when you're trying to create content. Like, you're not always gonna keep people happy, but you have to understand that it comes as a territory and you need good strategy when you're in a PR crisis. Because I watched the fallout in the outcome of how that changed the brand over time, and it ultimately killed that brand because they never got ahead of their own narrative. And that's such a. Such an important power piece to lose, because once it's out of your hands and it belongs to the people, you have no control over your brand.

[Cameron]

It speaks to the sickness that infects a lot of organizations where people who have moved up the corporate ladder disproportionately influence the actual leaders to do things that are against their interest because of their own. You know, I've talked a lot about this in terms of the Canadian conservative leader being completely undermined by advisors who haven't done anything. But that moved him away from doing the right thing in some controversies. An example is Tylenol. You probably weren't around, but I remember this.

[Jordan]

Yeah, they did, actually.

[Cameron]

Somebody went into New York City and put some poison in Tylenol. And all the advisors, when you look at it, we did this in my executive mba, all of them were like, you know, don't admit a mistake, minimize it. And what the executive, the leader at that point did, who was very courageous, said, yes, this has happened. They recalled everything at huge expense. And the way they relaunched the product was in a safety seal container that actually allowed them to double market share.

[Jordan]

Yeah, right.

[Cameron]

But they didn't listen to those kind of bean counter, you know, cowardly advisors who said, no, no, do this, you know, like, be scared. Right. They just owned it, took a measure, and then came in and turned a bad thing into an opportunity.

[Jordan]

And they become the case study. They become the brand that you reward and remember. And that's what you're looking for, is it's not just to survive, but it's also to have that, like, affliction and affiliation. Right. Like from. Not affliction. Sorry, your Affiliation and like. Like, love for the brand, the admiration.

[Cameron]

For it, because it wasn't Tylenol's fault. Everybody had their stuff the same way. But the. The kind of scared people said, oh, my God.

[Jordan]

Well, that approach is relevant, right? Like, it can change an entire perspective generation's perspective on a product. And it can. It can be like it was just the right thing to do. But I also want to touch on, too, before we wrap up. I'm trepidicious to talk about it because it is sensitive, but I do want to talk about Cassie's brand because I feel like I want more from her. I don't feel like she's done a good job in positioning her brand throughout all of this. And it's complicated because I do feel that she's a victim. I do feel like she was with a horrible human being that probably eroded a bunch of stuff within her, and she's come out as damaged. But it also is relevant to talk about the public's perception when something like this becomes so big and there really isn't a narrative from this person other than they collected a big check.

[Cameron]

What I would say you're disappointed with her brand. What I just see is her brand. Right. And that phrase that I often cite, your actions speak so loudly that my ears can't hear what you say. Right. She got a big settlement, silent, wants cash. Right. She didn't turn it into advocacy money.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Cameron]

Right. So that's just her brand. Like, you can be disappointed in her not being what we want her to be, but often people get in these bad situations because a bunch of life choices and how they respond to it. So, you know, what we're really seeing is just her brand. Right. And. And yes, she was victimized by this brutal guy, but there's, like, there's nuance into how everything happens, and that, in the end, reflects what's going on. Right.

[Jordan]

I think that's what just makes this whole situation, like, icky, is that you want a hero to the villain and just seems like everyone around him was so purchasable, and it makes it feel like.

[Cameron]

Well, and it attracts those type of people as well.

[Jordan]

True, true.

[Cameron]

The glam and all that.

[Jordan]

I feel like this entire. It's like this horrible human was, like, existing as, like, a bottom feeder, and everyone allowed him to do it because he just owned. I guess that's really what the story is.

[Cameron]

Let me just do it. A public service announcement to Justin Bieber, who grew up just down the road from us here. Your brand isn't going to be the same until you come clean on P. Diddy. If you want a brand refresh, if you want to change the world and make a difference, stop hiding in this ridiculous world you're in. Come out and tell people what happened.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Cameron]

Rebuild yourself and be a force of exposure. Right. That's how he can get his legs back out from under him. But when people are quiet while these things go on, you know, he was a victim, and he doesn't want to talk about it, probably because he's shared of it. But I think he was victimized under Diddy's mentorship and used and, you know, that's how he got some of his fame. But I think he needs to come out and do a real, proper expose.

[Jordan]

But I think my question for you, because you've dealt with a lot of victims of brutal sexual abuse. How does he do that? If it's as bad as it is.

[Cameron]

You can never recover until you own it. And you can never really recover until you name. Name the accuser or the crime publicly. Because it's part. Not. Not for every kid, but it's part of your redemption or your. Your arc to get yourself back is you actually have to name it. You have to say it. You have to, like, change the universe by sharing something. That's what allows you to grow past it. But if you always hide it, you're always going to be poisoned by this trauma. You have to get it out into the universe so it can go and do good or bad. And then you can. You can now start refresh. Like a phoenix, to use an old cliche, but for most people who want to do this litigation, sexual assault litigation that I've done, I'm like, you know, by the end, regardless of what happens, you're going to be more powerful because you finally got your voice back.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Cameron]

And you can't have your voice if you're scared to talk.

[Jordan]

The truth, I think that's what we're seeing in him is. Is there's been a departure of soul Justin Bieber.

[Cameron]

Because he knows what he should do, and he's not doing it.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Cameron]

Biebs, reach out. I'll help you, man.

[Jordan]

Well, this episode took a turn.

[Cameron]

But before we go, let's talk about Amazon's new logo.

[Jordan]

Oh, my gosh.

[Cameron]

Have you seen it?

[Jordan]

I haven't.

[Cameron]

Oh, my God.

[Jordan]

Oh, my gosh.

[Cameron]

Amazon's new logo. We're about to show it to you.

[Jordan]

It's got to be like the kind bar.

[Cameron]

It cost. It costs $1 million, but it probably.

[Jordan]

Costs a Million dollars because they had to like rewrap the plane.

[Cameron]

No, no, no, no, no, no. They say it's close to a billion dollars to execute the rebrand based on the boxing and everything. And that seems like way too high to me, but, you know, the, the, the planes, the trucks.

[Jordan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Cameron]

Her citation said it cost a million dollars in payment to do that.

[Jordan]

You know though, what is okay, annoying also makes me like love the industry that we're in because that exists a few more years till we get that contract, but. I'm kidding. But the core, the core thing though that is relevant to that is I think the worst thing Amazon could have done would be a complete rebrand. They didn't need it. All that they did is they, they lessened the weight of the font to like to modernize it so that it comes across a little bit more tech focused, which is really all that they needed. I think it's just the question is like, what is that worth? And ultimately a lot of those agencies that do the bid for the rfp, there's a massive kickback that's like going back to people and there's no.

[Cameron]

But it's how you price and a lot of people don't understand pricing. Like if you have a brand that's worth a hundred billion dollars.

[Jordan]

Yes.

[Cameron]

Doing a brand refund refresh for a million dollars is actually fair. So you can't look at it in the context of a hardware store and what they would pay. You know, it's what the value of doing a Nike brand refresh is worth. Right. So I think the number is actually good. And although on its face it looks ridiculous, it probably. In today's world, there's so many huge errors in brand refreshes. Like Jaguar, you know what I mean, that that's actually probably. It's what they need a nice conservative move in it, if anything.

[Jordan]

I actually think this is like a hot. Because you can learn from it is that oftentimes like tweaking to just like clean up and modernize it is a change and there's people want sweeping change. But actually the data shows that like once you have that brand connection and brand reputation, it's very difficult and very expensive to reconnect it topic for the next podcast.

[Cameron]

But that's where font is undervalued. Like the importance of font for its visual impact on the. On the cortex text is. Is quite big. And so people don't value just a font change, but it can actually make a big difference.

[Jordan]

Agreed. Totally. As a lasting. Lasting as my last comment for this, we're actually going to be launching a private cohort. I'm going to be test testing this out with 12 people to do socials with you in a group of like top experts, people who are listening especially to the end. You are going to be invited to this because I really only want the OGs. We're going to be testing this out. It's going to be six week intensive. We're going to be meeting every single week. I'm really excited about this, so send me a note directly if you're interested.

[Cameron]

Wonderful. And Iceland, in case you're looking for a continent. I think Trump is looking for some people to put into the United States in case they're looking for a continent.

[Jordan]

Thanks guys for listening to another week of Art of the Brand. Please share this episode.