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- [00:00]
A
I grew my account from zero to a million in 30 days, and this is what I did. Just follow these six steps. Just comment the word scale. You get a tie, you get a tariff of 2000%.
- [00:13]
B
Creativity is in short supply. There's a lot of people who can go online and put graphics together and everything and say they work, but if you worked at a big corporation, 99 times out of 100, you're not creative. You can't get promoted in a corporation if you're creative.
- [00:25]
A
Every single brand is posting on socials. Every single brand is doing videos. If you're trying to give yourself that 10% difference, it comes down to the caliber and quality of thinking, which is hard to find. The reason why Meta acquired WhatsApp was because of its reach in power.
- [00:40]
B
Like, you know, there's a lizard in my underwear. Okay, maybe had that accusation before, but I don't want to.
- [00:47]
A
A snake in your pants. Oh, my God. Sos Everybody listening. Sos.
- [00:53]
B
What a brand, what a brand, what.
- [00:55]
A
A brand, what a mighty good brand. Say it again now. What a a brand, what a brand.
- [01:00]
B
What a brand, what a mighty good.
- [01:03]
A
All right, let's kick it off.
- [01:04]
B
Another episode of Art of the brand, episode one, 164,299.
- [01:11]
A
We're going to get on counting them. That is next week's task. Let's add it to the list. But this week, we're coming off of a bunch of. A bunch of things. It was April Fools last week, which I feel like is turning into a bit of a. A branding holiday. We kind of have, like, the Super Bowl. April Fools is kind of becoming one where you're, like, watching to see what brands do. I feel like Black Friday is kind of one, and then Christmas, and then they're really pushing for Valentine's Day B1, which I'm not fully bought into yet, but. So we're gonna talk about April Fools. I've got some interesting updates to talk about WhatsApp and the development of kind of where. Where how brands are using WhatsApp for brands to consider. Season finale of White Lotus.
- [01:50]
B
That's gonna be a good segment.
- [01:53]
A
I'm excited to talk about that. And I've got a bunch of other stuff, actually. I think it's gonna be a really awesome episode. So let's get into it.
- [01:59]
B
And we got Hot or Not. And we have a special segment on tariffing annoying things.
- [02:04]
A
Yeah, tariffing tariffs. So let's kick it off with season finale of White Lotus.
- [02:09]
B
All right, what do you want to.
- [02:10]
A
Talk about without being A spoiler alert. What did you think of, like, if.
- [02:14]
B
You haven't watched the end of White Lotus, it's just a shame because we're gonna talk about it. Like, it is an absolute spoiler alert.
- [02:19]
A
To me, this season was the show becoming a brand. To me, the first season was almost like a. A pilot. Like, it was a Can this concept work? The second season was a refinement of it. It was good. It wasn't great. This. This season was really the three. The three levels of a brand. It was like a brand was season one. Season two was a good brand. Season three was a great brand.
- [02:45]
B
Yeah. And it shows you that in order to get to a. A great brand, you have to go through a process where it's not perfect.
- [02:50]
A
Yeah.
- [02:50]
B
I think season two, they tried some stuff, but on season three, Mike White, I. He just mastered storytelling at a level that I think was exceptional and isn't really available on a lot of platforms right now. I want to talk about why I think his approach to storytelling in this season was. Was so magnificent.
- [03:07]
A
Well, there's so much to unpack for four seasons when it comes to branding, actually, which makes this a really interesting conversation to have as, like, a larger zeitgeist moment. But from a storytelling perspective, I think your analysis is brilliant. Because I had mixed reviews coming out of the last season. I haven't been so invested in a TV show, I don't think ever. Like, I never have been committed to a show launching, like, every single week. This is the first time really ever in my life. So it was interesting to be so invested in a TV show. And it was also interesting how much slower a TV show felt because you had to wait every Sunday. And you, like, you re watch to that beginning segment because when you're, like, watching it like the Sopranos years later, you always fast forward through the, like, what happened on the last episode because you've just been watched, like five episodes.
- [03:58]
B
Yeah, it's actually interesting from a brand experience when. When there's anticipation. Because it's true. Game of Thrones, when I was watching it week by week, I would watch that intro. It would prime me for the experience that's coming. But if you're just watching binge watching, you just skip through it. You don't care because you know what's going on. So it think of it from your brand experience that every time you. You allow anticipation for your product or your service and your experience, you. You deliver this. It just. It gives some dopamine to be sitting down, knowing it's Coming. Cause we didn't fast forward through the intro once on this.
- [04:31]
A
But also, I think that's what. Where we can learn more, though, from a brand perspective, because White Lotus does very well is they curate their intro, their music, their palette to that season. So it's. That's what makes it so cool with them. Anchoring around the Four Seasons is every season almost has its own brand. It has its own feel, even though there's this overarching theme of. It's almost kind of a modern Agatha Christie kind of concept. Right. This kind of like, mystery. But it's. The intro was well. Was on brand. Like it was well executed.
- [05:04]
B
No. And it was intellectual, like good storytelling. That's why authors have the highest IQ of almost all professions is because you really have to weave different stories over different timelines, over different people. You leave clues that are rewarding when you discover them in hindsight, but if they're too obvious, you don't have a good story. And I think they do in the intro. They bury a bunch of kind of clues or what people are going through, and it's just spectacular. And I want to talk about why. I think he said he did such a good job of storytelling.
- [05:33]
A
Yeah, I do. I want to hear your analysis of this.
- [05:36]
B
And this is where the growing comes to fruition, because I think they nailed storytelling and experience by delay. Everybody we talked to the beginning is, who do you think is going to get killed? And that's been done before. Like, who's the one person who's going to get killed? And so the whole season, you're looking for clues of who's going to get killed and why and who's going to hate each other. And it's also an interesting way to make a story more interesting is to lead one thing, but then come up with something else. Because somebody always gets killed at the end, but without any spoilers. When I thought about this morning during some quiet time, I think the producer actually, it's not about who was killed, but what was lost because of choices. And so when you look back at the season, you see so much time being spent on internal struggles or what's happening. Almost every character is facing a choice and based on what they do. And if I was to describe it, it would be a spoiler loop. But what they do is a serious choice that affects how they go forward. And so the death is of one self that could have versus the self that they chose to be.
- [06:40]
A
Well, what makes it deep with what you're saying is the White Lotus follows the Problems of the rich and famous, which ultimately come down to choice, right? It's the choices that you make and the choices that you live with. And it's interesting that that at the end, they haven't painted the reality of choice like they did in this final season. Like, you can tell that that was the clear, not obvious, but the clear takeaway that Mike White is wanting you to learn from the show. Like, I think now the show is actually finally becoming something for where it's going to go for the next few seasons, because the first two seasons, you didn't really understand what it was about. Like, there's an opulence. There's like a richness, but it's all the different problems that come from successful people, which really hasn't been, like, analyzed before. And at the root of it, it's just like, kind of how effed up, you know what I mean? Like, everybody really is, but in a way of, like, where we desire it most.
- [07:37]
B
It's kind of like the honey that attracts people is that it's about the rich, but they have a lot of characters in there of people who have their own struggles that are, like, employees, you know, so there. There's a contrast between two things. And what I love about him is he's not playing to stereotypes, even though he is, because the people who aren't rich make decisions that are as bad as the rich people. And some of the rich people are trying. You know what I mean?
- [07:59]
A
Like, well, he makes you question everything, right? At every stage.
- [08:03]
B
And season finale is amazing because some of the characters who are supposed to be this, you know, aren't so pure, you know, and there's discomfort. But that's what was so good about Game of Thrones when people read the series or watched it, is that he didn't follow the script. Like, not everybody got the rewards that we're used to. And if you made a dumb decision in the Game of Thrones, you got killed. And everybody's like, how could you kill that character? Like, he brings in consequences that are relevant to real life that were really moving.
- [08:29]
A
It's really, to me, fascinating from a cultural moment perspective because of how raw it is and how much is it's accepted without much controversy and how quickly brands are wanting to be a part of its message. To me, that's the most, like, fascinating piece of analysis, is really, like, loving Parker Posey for. For really the ugliness that exists in, like, numbing yourself from the world. But there's this, like, iconicness that comes with it. And Brands are. Are breaking through of the veneer of what they're supposed to be.
- [09:14]
B
Yeah, I was just writing that down. Is. You know, it's almost like for the last decade, everybody had to pretend they're perfect in all of their posts and all of their virtue, signaling in everything. And what it's doing is. It's kind of making us enjoy the imperfection of the people around us, but the fact that we can still be a fan of an imperfect human and.
- [09:32]
A
Not be trying to look too far into it. Like, I think that's really the coolest part, is even Amy Lou Wood Chelsea in the show, there's nothing perfect about her look, but she's such a perfectly cast character, and it's being able to see past the idea of perfect versus the execution of. Of being perfect for that role. And we really do believe she really loves him. But there's also this kind of. This underlying question of, like, are you also with him for the money? You know, like, he's not a lovable guy. He's not a nice guy. She's got this great. Like, it's. There's this.
- [10:07]
B
That's what they do. They're dealing with. It's not just black and white. If you're with him, you know, like, you can actually love the failed guy. Like, it's. That's what's so beautiful about the show, I think, is that it's not placating to what people tell you reality has to be. It's showing you kind of what reality is. But then if you guys watch, haven't watched the final season, think of all the characters in terms of what choices do they face and what are the consequences of it. And it makes it so. It was just a light bulb when I thought of it.
- [10:36]
A
I mean, your take is truly brilliant. I felt a bit lost leaving and really kind of reflecting on where my takeaway is, because on one hand, there was nothing to criticize. I actually felt this overwhelming sadness that there really. We don't have good TV and good movies anymore. And how not difficult it is or it should be to be able to create kind of storytelling at this level, because. And what's interesting about the way that he did it. So there's so many times where you felt like it's corny or it's cheesy or they're like, overly foreshadowing something, and then they're. But you're right. In the end, it came down to choice. And that's what makes all of it so confusing, because you're like, they're constantly showing you things that you think are obvious and then completely changing what the takeaway is from that.
- [11:26]
B
This is why I like Michael. I don't know who that guy is. I think I'd like to meet him at one level because he's playing with an audience that wants to think everything exists, like, to be a great author.
- [11:37]
A
As I said, he really understands his target market Persona.
- [11:40]
B
Yeah, but he's like, you actually have to be incredibly intelligent because he plays with you. And when I work for a top general, people would know. He said, people want to criticize arrogance. A lot of people, especially people who are comfortable and average. And he said, arrogance is divisive good leadership because mediocre people don't want to be told to raise their standard. And I think of it in all of our listeners, businesses, there's the arrogance of the artist. If you actually do the work and you care, you're going to come across as arrogant because you're just operating at this level. And so he's not telling the audience what they want to do. Like, he's kind of making them think this, but he's literally playing with the minds of most of the people watching White Lotus, and I think smiling. And I like it. It reminds me of Quentin Tarantino in Inglourious Basterds or Pulp Fiction, where he doesn't give you the answers you want. Like, in Inglourious Basterds, Brad Pitt had a rope mark around his throat. The whole movie never explained it, but everybody would come up with a reason of why he got it. And in Pulp Fiction, nobody knew it was in the suitcase. So everybody would kind of think what it was, and they'd be talking about it. Just. Your storytelling doesn't have to be that standard script of just making people happy. You have to have the arrogance to believe in it, to create anticipation, to lead people down and make them follow you on the story you're telling.
- [12:57]
A
There's just so much to unpack with this.
- [12:59]
B
And you have to have the courage to be criticized if you're building a personal brand or your other brand. So many people are held back because they don't want to be criticized early. But you have to really believe in it, have a passion for whatever you're doing and. And have the arrogance of an artist who really wants to build something special. And don't worry about the criticism so that you can take people somewhere they don't even know they need to go.
- [13:20]
A
Well, I want to. I want to trail on that, but I want to Come back to the points that I had on for the White Lotus and where, where I think this speed of execution is at in the current moment. But what you just talked about, on another note, connects with. We got a really disappointing email this past weekend from someone that we had grown close to. And what it came down to was lack of accountability on being confident and leaning into your kind of your own brand and continuing to show up. And what most people forget in this path to developing a brand for yourself or for your business or both is that you have to have that confidence in showing up every single day, regardless of how many people are liking your post or commenting on your post, because you have to give them a reason to continue to show up to your content. And it's. It's kind of a different way of approaching this. But that. That confidence in telling your story is. Becomes interesting to someone later, and it's kind of following that arc of what do you think?
- [14:23]
B
I'm trying to follow where you're going with that. It's like that email is. Is its own topic, right? And that's somebody who we invested in, became distant and chose, made a choice because they had somebody in their. In their organization that had great influence because of proximity and was fighting for their own survival, as opposed to listening to his friends who had earned his trust, who he knew were elite. But the proximity to the person who was. Who had a different plan ended up winning. Right? And I think because it was safer, because it was easier, because he was busy. And that is a loss. That's a choice that results in a loss. Kind of like White Lotus. Like he chose to go with the easy person that he's closer to by proximity rather than doing what we were asking, which was a little bit more dangerous and unpredictable, but had way higher payout.
- [15:14]
A
I think the more common, though, takeaway is that a lot of people want to outsource their story. A lot of people want to outsource doing the uncomfortable thing, which is like, you know, showing up and recording a piece of content and being raw and being them and being real, because it's. It's harder to do that when you. All that you see is two likes, you know, and one's your mom for the first, you know, two or three weeks. And then to continue past the two or three weeks after you keep getting no feedback and to keep going to leaning into that story and to being kind of into being confident in what your story is, is the. And you're right, there's. There's more to this to Unpack and it is something that we should come back to. But the confidence in telling your story and showing up and being raw and real is also something that you have to be prepared to do in order to be successful. No.
- [16:02]
B
And happy.
- [16:03]
A
Yeah.
- [16:04]
B
Right. You just have to really get past that obstacle. It tells you not to. Not to put yourself out there.
- [16:09]
A
Yeah. I want, I do want to come back to this. I think there's a lot that, that people can learn from this. But on to wrap up the piece on the White Lotus, what I found to be the most fascinating is this is really not like a Batman franchise show, you know, like really a kind of a branded show that's almost kind of in quotations come out of nowhere. For a lot of people to have been hyper focused on brand deals, like almost at the Barbie level. I read the Barbie movie and like for two years leading up to the launch, it was like every brand had these Barbie Mattel collaborations and White Lotus. Listen to this. White Lotus Season 3 brand collabs. This was just like before it had dropped. Okay. This isn't even all the stuff that came with the actors. So there is Bloomingdale's and White Lotus, a 34 piece collection. Banana Republic and White Lotus. Which is why we saw. Yeah, but it's owned by the same group. Okay. Keels and the White Lotus. So they did like a full. As if it was like Kiehl's was the spa that existed at the white Lotus CB2 and the white Lotus. So a bunch of like a 50 piece furniture and decor collab containing tabletop barware, sets, cotton bedding, bone china, decorative objects and upholstered furniture and more.
- [17:27]
B
Why is it called Bone China?
- [17:29]
A
I think because it was called bone.
- [17:31]
B
Well, okay, Sherlock, that sounds quite a. Kind of obvious.
- [17:34]
A
That's my best answer.
- [17:35]
B
I think because it's kind of bone.
- [17:37]
A
I think it's because of the color bone. We should Google that. It's a chatgpt question compart. So they did like these mango sticky rice flavor chocolate bars. They basically had several other flavors. They had Nest and the White Lotus. So they made candles. We're not even close to the end yet.
- [17:56]
B
Okay, well, let's speed it up.
- [17:58]
A
They did another Camilla, the luxury clothing brand, internationally renowned, released a White Lotus collection. Fair harbor male swimsuits.
- [18:08]
B
Yeah.
- [18:08]
A
Sustainable brunch, resort wear and accessories. So you can get like slippers and robes as if they're like from the Hotel Abercrombie and the White Lotus and.
- [18:19]
B
The H and M. H and M Seems odd.
- [18:22]
A
Blissey Silk pillowcases with the pineapple theme and silk eye masks. Diff eyewear inspired by the White Lotus. A cocktail book. St. James White Lotus organic black tea Coffee mate did Thai White Lotus Thai iced tea. A travel set with a travel agenda and luggage tag and then a bunch of like one off pieces of clothing. Oh, and then also there was Supergoop also did a collaboration with the White Lotus. It just, it shows you like this has never really been done before with a TV show. And then not to mention all of the brand deals that the actors all got while the season was airing shows you. To be a bit blunt, I think the disparity that brands are feeling trying to attach to other brands as well as a ways to increase relevance and credibility.
- [19:14]
B
Well, it's just a better spend than. Than advertising than standard TV commercials. Right? Like, because I don't like those product placement, you know, affiliations where they zero in on a coke as somebody's drinking. Like when I watched the season, I didn't ever get a feeling that it was pushing any brand, but they were just, they just existed within the web of the story. And I think that's what makes it work.
- [19:34]
A
It's that they also have such a clear aesthetic that it, it gave a very strong. It's. It's almost, it's almost the fashion show ization of these brand collabs where it's. It's. You're basically given kind of like a Met gala theme and it's how all these brands can execute based on this concept of what the White Lotus brand represents and how they can excel, extend that brand reality by connecting it to their brand. Because CB2 is very much a kind of a fast fashion furniture brand of that's very mid century modern. So like all of these, these patterns are actually very much not in line with the CB2 brand, but because it's gen pop enough, you know, it. It has that connection and reach. But what's also interesting is, I don't know if you knew this, but in 2022, the season two finale attracted 4.1 million viewers. And it had 10 million views per episode, which was 50% more than its season one. For season three, they surpassed their record by over 30%, having 6.2 million viewers per night tuning in to the Sunday episode.
- [20:43]
B
Sorry, that doesn't make any sense.
- [20:45]
A
In total it was 10 million, but. And then per episode was 4.4.1.
- [20:51]
B
But you said season two was 10 million.
- [20:53]
A
No, no, in total. So in total it ended up being on average 10 million views per episode. Not the tune in for when they released Sunday night at 9pm Eastern. So for season three, they were getting. They got 6.2 million per night at 9pm Would tune in for streaming in the U.S. not the rest of the world.
- [21:10]
B
Good.
- [21:11]
A
So it, it ended up actually drawing a huge audience. But it just shows you where I.
- [21:15]
B
Think humans are looking for good stories. And then I may touch on it in the tariff section today. But what they're not looking for are remakes. Right. Reboots, remakes. Lazy storytelling with high expenses. It's kind of like what we talked about last week with that, that launch. It's just spending money without a story. What it's telling us again and again and again. Humans crave stories and we have to invest in telling better stories.
- [21:39]
A
Great point. Two wrap up pieces to this just because I got some interesting gossip. Do you know Mook is one of the lead singers in blackpink, the Korean K pop band.
- [21:51]
B
I kind of recognize.
- [21:53]
A
I was thinking that there was. Mike White didn't know that she. Because she's actually from Thailand. So she's a Thai rapper singer, but huge in Korea.
- [22:05]
B
Yeah. And her dancing scene was spectacular with dance. That's why.
- [22:09]
A
Because she's been training for dancing since she was like. The whole approach to K Pop, if you don't know too, is actually wild. They effectively do like American Idol for life. So you get like brought in, you do like an American idol at like 9 or 10. And then whoever wins from that gets put into groups and then those groups train and they keep doing.
- [22:31]
B
It's like Olympic training. Yeah, like you're getting the national Olympic program from the age of 7 until you hit 20 for K pop.
- [22:37]
A
And then effectively by the time you get to, you keep doing these like almost to your point, like Olympics. And then basically at the end it's like there's two or three groups or there's like one group of like eight people or 10 people and then that becomes Blackpink.
- [22:52]
B
So they're very competent people. You have a merit based selection process.
- [22:56]
A
Yes. Yeah.
- [22:56]
B
Very good.
- [22:57]
A
Second thing is Leslie Bibb, who is the like short hair Texan friend, is married to the. I forgot his name though. Like the guy.
- [23:10]
B
That'd be a better story if you knew his name.
- [23:12]
A
I know, I know his acting name. Which is actually Sam Rockwell. Not the one that you thought was Sam Rockwell.
- [23:17]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that guy.
- [23:17]
A
Yeah, the. Yeah, he. So they're actually married.
- [23:20]
B
Well, he seems a lot shorter than her.
- [23:22]
A
They are definitely not the same height.
- [23:24]
B
Yeah.
- [23:24]
A
But they've Been together since like 2007.
- [23:26]
B
Oh, wow. Cool.
- [23:27]
A
Yeah. So that was.
- [23:29]
B
They're a good couple. They have a good vibe.
- [23:30]
A
Yeah. So that was. That was. Those are my two fun facts for some art of the brand gossip column. Okay, so that wraps up our White Lotus piece. Let's. So if you guys have missed this, there's this like funny trend on the Internet of basically tariffing all the stuff that's annoying and overdone so that we can tariff on annoying things.
- [23:55]
B
Since the US Is tariffing, every other country might as well tariff, tariff and terrify. That's interesting.
- [24:01]
A
Ah, terrifying. We are terrified. Philip did a video this week that went super viral on tariffs.
- [24:06]
B
Yeah.
- [24:07]
A
But not everyone might agree with his.
- [24:09]
B
Political stance, so I encourage. Because we're allowed to disagree.
- [24:13]
A
All right, so let me hear what you have on your tariff list.
- [24:16]
B
I was thinking about it from a social media perspective. Like there should be a tariff on those overly dramatic slow talking quotes that are trying to be spiritual. Like, you know, when you walk alone on the beat, you know, like that. There should be a tariff on that. Like you should lose. You should lose 50% of your likes. You should. There should be tariff on misquoting Einstein. I think half of the Instagram posts that have a quote with him are not actually attributable to Einstein, but they're getting likes and engagement. There should be some punishments for that.
- [24:42]
A
I think there should be a tariff on when you're not happy in your relationship and you're trying to fool everybody on. On Instagram that you have a perfect relationship.
- [24:50]
B
Misrepresenting your happiness.
- [24:51]
A
Yeah, 500%.
- [24:52]
B
There should be a huge one on that because it causes other people happiness because you're pretending to be happy. Right. A terrifying inauthenticity.
- [24:58]
A
Yeah.
- [24:59]
B
Really. You know, LinkedIn, we should tear off every marketing company and marketer who sends me a direct InMail that says, hey, just checking in. Love your content. I wonder. And then I get these passive aggressive follows up. I thought I'd circle back. Maybe you're too busy for me. I'm like, don't give me. I haven't asked to speak to you and you're giving me passive aggressive emails.
- [25:16]
A
Put your tariff on it.
- [25:17]
B
Well, let's say it should be, I don't know, 100%. Whatever.
- [25:20]
A
I think I should up it to a thousand percent if they get your name wrong as part of the. The inbox message. No, when they do like a copy paste and you get like the John and it's very. I'm very much not A John.
- [25:32]
B
You can almost tell when a course is completed in East Asia, like India or Bangladesh, because all of a sudden you'll get a wave of outreach from people who are trying to market. They'll be like, hello, dear. I saw that your video is performing very well. I can do. You know, you'll get like 10 of the same ones from different people. You can tell they just graduated.
- [25:49]
A
I would also do a tariff on misinformation. I especially on TikTok with like the. The marketing honeys and homeboys that are like, I grew my account from zero to a million in 30 days. And this is what I did. Just follow these six steps. Just comment the word scale. You get a tie. You get a tariff of 2000% because you're lying and it's annoying.
- [26:14]
B
We might have to reach into the bank account for this tariff. But, you know, buzzwords. There should be a tariff in marketing buzzwords. Synergy, dis. Corruption.
- [26:22]
A
Vertically integrated.
- [26:23]
B
Vertically integrated. Thought leader. Like, you know, speak human, not industry.
- [26:28]
A
I was gonna say, I wanna. I wanna tear off the Taylor Swift glitter. Just coming back to my Taylor Swift point.
- [26:35]
B
You're only allowed 15 pieces of glitter.
- [26:37]
A
Oh, my gosh.
- [26:38]
B
See if somebody else. Last week, somebody recognized every episode. I try to drop in a secret movie reference. Last week when I said, when you make this mistake, you go to the box for two minutes and you feel shame. Best. One of the best movies of all time. Slap shot, a hockey movie. A couple people picked that up. And then I just said, we'll tear off anybody who wears more than 15 pieces of glitter. Let's see if people.
- [26:58]
A
How can you wear 15 pieces of glitter?
- [26:59]
B
Whatever glitter is at a terrific.
- [27:01]
A
You can't be individualized pieces of glitter because it takes a lot of glitter to make up like a glitter.
- [27:06]
B
Sure. You know, they'll get the movie reference. I want to tariff. I want to tariff this. This is where I come from for lawyers. Because the one thing that makes me want to vomit is when people go so humbled to be nominated by my industry as one of the top. And I'm like, there's just like a circle of lawyers nominating themselves every three months and then posting it like that. Humble bragging should come with a 1000%.
- [27:26]
A
Tariff on 5000% tariff.
- [27:28]
B
Not saying anything interesting.
- [27:29]
A
It makes you not want to go on LinkedIn because most people that are on LinkedIn are. So they're just providing useless information.
- [27:37]
B
This is what LinkedIn. I see this all people. You know what they want on LinkedIn? A bunch of these People who do it, they want LinkedIn to be that place. I think it'd be so proud of my daughter for graduating as an honor student above 95. You know, like that's just what they want it to be. A place where their ego can brag to other people in their industry and they can get a lot of those useless comments. Oh my God, that's amazing. Oh my God. So proud. It's all on LinkedIn. I always get well talking about your daughter. Yeah. So proud my daughter got this job or so. So honored to be joining this team.
- [28:07]
A
Like, no, it's usually about yourself. It's usually not about you celebrating somebody else, you know, and that's what makes it even almost like double annoying. Yeah, they're looking, they're not proud of someone around them. They're just wanting to act as if they don't want to be celebrated for.
- [28:23]
B
Their promotion or move that they're putting on there. Yeah, please don't celebrate me putting on here.
- [28:28]
A
It's so hard for me to post this new promotion that I got and that I, you know, worked so hard for.
- [28:33]
B
But why there should be a tariff on that is because it's so egoic that you're posting this accomplishment, trying to pretend that you're humble as opposed to being authentic on the platform and saying something that's really genuine or interesting. All you're saying on the platform is this humble bragging.
- [28:48]
A
Yeah, totally. A 7,000% tariff on the LinkedIn humble bragging. I'm also just going to place a tariff on medical spa owners that just have a copy paste grid as all of the other medical spa owners, because it is, I'll put a lower tariff, you know, something that they can still get by on. So let's say a 50% tariff because the frustration that they have for their brand is their fault because all they're doing is copying their competition.
- [29:19]
B
Are you gonna put a tariff on photos as we discussed?
- [29:22]
A
Oh my gosh, yes. Okay. We're gonna do a tariff on photos that you took 10 years ago that no longer look like you. Thousand percent tariff.
- [29:30]
B
Embrace how you look today.
- [29:31]
A
Don't. Catfishing is. That's not a strategy.
- [29:34]
B
Right on. A lot of revenue gonna come from this.
- [29:36]
A
I know, I'm really looking forward to this. A lot of tariff revenue. We have to figure out how we get paid as a, as a company, as a country, the country of our brand.
- [29:43]
B
Let us know what you think we should tariff in the marketing and branding world. Right. What are people doing that is annoying inefficient and causing you stress. Put it in the comments below and we'll pick the best tariffs for next week.
- [29:55]
A
Cool. Let's talk about. I wanna talk about WhatsApp. So a really interesting headline came out that Since May of 2024, the BuzzFeed owned recipe publisher Tasty has been on the meta owned messaging app WhatsApp and has amassed more than a million followers. According to the company, by converting its primarily video based content into text and photo based posts, the brand is now reaching a new audience. An essential tactic at a time when TikTok's fate is still up in the air. And then the quote that came from the CEO is if you're a video publisher in particular, you have, you have to diversify. You can't put all your eggs in one basket. And what's really interesting is that other brands in this past year, like Hellman's Absolute and E Commerce, any different E Commerce brands, are now adopting WhatsApp for business. And today of Tacy's 1 million WhatsApp followers, 97% are outside the US so they're focusing on basically a massive market share in other countries, so Asia, India, South America, et cetera. And I thought this was just a really interesting place for us to talk about the underpriced attention because we've been talking a lot this past week about Snapchat and I think it's just an interesting for us to be talking about other platforms that may not be huge right now in North America, but are worth getting ahead of based on.
- [31:20]
B
Where there's arbitrage, it's a big word, arbitrage like mermaid.
- [31:24]
A
Why don't you define it? Because you've been asking all the team to define it this week.
- [31:27]
B
Just arbitrage is just where you can find value at no cost. So where the market has an inefficient reflection of price. Meaning if I can buy gold in Germany for $5,000 an ounce, but sell it in England for 5,500 an ounce on the same day, there's a $500 arbitrage. So I'll put all of my money into buying that. And so it, it applies in the marketing world in that there are platforms that give you disproportionate value for the time, energy and dollars you spend to get in it. And you always want to be looking, Gary Vee says this, you want to be looking for those platforms that give you more value for your money.
- [32:06]
A
I think this whole approach to WhatsApp is interesting because WhatsApp is really huge, kind of everywhere else in the world. Not that it's not big in North America, but it's not our predominantly our number one form of communication. And the reason why Meta acquired WhatsApp was because of its reach in power and especially in emerging economies. Now, what's really relevant to this is when we were in the Middle East, a lot of, okay, so companies all over the world are using WhatsApp. Like, this is a very, very widely used program. A lot of you listening to this probably use WhatsApp a lot. But what's cool about WhatsApp for business is that it effectively allows you to streamline communication through one number to, like, basically communicate with potential customers and to, like, to navigate sales. So for a lot of businesses that are in this service space or are still small as, like, scalable businesses, WhatsApp for Business is a great platform to get ahead of because it fully integrates into Facebook and Instagram. And it uses the same, like, story concept where, like, let's say, for example, you only have like 5 of 1 color shirt in stock. Like, you can put that on Instagram, you can put it on Facebook, and you can put it on your WhatsApp story. And it allows you to really kind of market what you have to sell in a way that's more streamlined to your contacts and to your customers. And it's really relevant. So I have some bullets here. So who benefits from WhatsApp? So brands with international audiences or ambitions to grow your audience range. And it does have to be international, also by way of where they live, but also who your customer type is. So if you're in a major city and you're wanting to break into more of those cultural pockets, like a Spanish pocket or like Eastern European pockets, a lot of them will use WhatsApp. So, like, it's a great way to diversify your audience, mix brands looking for more control. So you want to own the direct line to your customer, not the platform's algorithm. So basically the idea is that that by using WhatsApp, you're not hoping that the algorithm puts that post in front of your people. You're more able to directly send through WhatsApp for business. Like, you could do a weekly flyer. So I have some brands there, on WhatsApp that market, to me, and they'll basically create one image of, like, the products that they're launching that week, and then they can push it out to all of their contacts. So you're now directly owning your. And then it sends it to them in their chat. So if they Respond and they want to buy something, they're responding to you right in the individual chat with you in them. Which is much different than like putting it out on the feed and hoping they see it sounds like there should.
- [34:35]
B
Be a course on it.
- [34:36]
A
And another one is like, it's really awesome for brands who, who want reoccurring touch points. So WhatsApp is killer for product drops, loyalty programs, Sweet state sweepstakes in exclusive communities. So a beauty brand we worked on that was in The Netherlands used WhatsApp to main like to basically manage their VIP group and their affiliate group. So if you wanted to develop like an affiliate program, using WhatsApp allows you to streamline communication with like a larger group. Drop in like giveaways sweepstakes, like selling points, like marketing tools. It allows you like in one place to easily communicate with a larger group and then effectively you can set up automated responses. You can create product catalogs, you can run customer service through WhatsApp. So it's like off a phone and you can have different employees be logged into the WhatsApp for business. So they don't all have to have one phone. They can just all share, like log into that account that allows you to message all of your customers. I think it's a really interesting angle for more businesses to consider.
- [35:37]
B
That's interesting. How would one start using it?
- [35:40]
A
Well, the, the two kind of areas that are best to use it is if you're selling products, especially if you're selling products to a more curated audience. So if you're not like a, the, the brands I gave as an example are definitely more mass market and you're going to be seeing more mass market using it. But if you're wanting to get ahead of it, like if you're selling like anything that's like small batch or like higher quality or more bespoke or you're creating things like it's really where you can launch like a catalog and people can like place direct orders from you. So products. It's strong.
- [36:09]
B
But how I'm a liti. So I have WhatsApp that text people on who don't use messenger. Like I would have no idea. Like sometimes I get added to groups, like crypto groups to somehow add my number or something. But I don't know how I would use WhatsApp when I open my phone to market. How would I do that?
- [36:25]
A
It's like a different way of using WhatsApp. It's called WhatsApp for Business. So like your suit, your suit supplier, like Danny from He's from Hong Kong, and he flies to North America once a year. He would use WhatsApp, and he basically would launch through WhatsApp, he all of his clients and his contacts. It will say, like, Hong Kong, Taylor. And as he sends the message to each person, it would just be like a catalog. So, like, I've got an example from kind of like mine. So like, every week I get. It's like, here, our new styles are updated. So they'll send like, a collage, and it's like all the different outfits, and then it will send the message. Then here's like, the link to their website. So if I want to add anything to cart or if I want to, like, circle them or ask for questions or ask for more photos. So instead of businesses just putting on Instagram, like, here's our new collection. They're sending it direct to Camille, to Philip, to Jose. So it's. It's going through, but it's not Philip opening it. It's a business that's sending it to me. So, like, this would be like, a company.
- [37:27]
B
How do they get the number? They get my number.
- [37:30]
A
Well, we have to be contacts.
- [37:31]
B
Yeah.
- [37:32]
A
So.
- [37:33]
B
So we have to express some interest through a lead magnet or an avatar.
- [37:36]
A
So the other place you're seeing a lot of WhatsApp for business especially, it's.
- [37:39]
B
Way better than email marketing. Yes, but I like, I get text marketing on messages from, like, okay, but here's the thing.
- [37:45]
A
So it's here, and it's not here as big as it is in other places in the world. So in, like, Dubai, for example, like, you can do, like, everything through WhatsApp for business. Same with, like, when we were, like, when we were in all of the stuff that we booked in the Middle East, I did all of it through WhatsApp for business. And there's someone that's always manning the chat. So, like, if you want to get a restaurant reservation, you don't call them anymore. You, like, you message them on WhatsApp for business. If you want to go to, like, a nail salon or if you want to go to, like, a hair salon, you message them through WhatsApp for business. Because it's no longer, like, Philip's not at work today, you're texting Philip who's it. You just go to the business and it becomes more of, like, a direct way to communicate. It's simpler. So it's. You're seeing people use it here. But the whole point of why this was a breakthrough like, marketing drive for Tasty is that we're not using WhatsApp for business with the way that Meta is predicting it's coming. So there's place for arbitrage to get ahead of it now and start implementing the systems because it's not as huge yet. So for you to start training your customer and your client to be using it, because a lot of them will have WhatsApp. Because people use WhatsApp when they travel. Right. Because WhatsApp allows you to, like, keep all your contacts through Wi Fi and to keep texting them. So because WhatsApp is secure and it's owned by Meta, it's a good thing to get ahead of. And because we talked about Snapchat, I think Snapchat will be a separate segment that we can talk about in a future podcast. But what's relevant to know is that Snapchat is paying its creators the most amount of money. So Snapchat, there's massive space for arbitrage because although the audience isn't there yet, Snapchat is incentivizing people to move to Snapchat. And Snapchat is very big in the Middle East. So if we were to predict trends of where things are going, Snapchat is.
- [39:32]
B
Kind of like the live golf to the PGA for content creators in the Middle east, literally.
- [39:38]
A
Because TikTok and Instagram pay. It's. It's abysmal. Like, you don't make money off the view. Count on TikTok and Instagram and even YouTube to make a living off it. You have to have, like, crazy views.
- [39:48]
B
Well, that Snapchat segment will be interesting. I just don't see myself snapping pictures of. But convince me and we'll see how it goes.
- [39:55]
A
Well, people are using Snapchat as. Instead of, instead of a messaging app.
- [39:59]
B
Yeah.
- [40:00]
A
So, like, content, it's easy to text because it's like, easier to send photos of what you're doing and what's going on. And it's like instant. There's no, like, there's no pressure to it. It disappears. And then while you're on it, you can also get news, other people's content. Yeah. Like, the whole point of, like, all these platforms is that especially what you're seeing with WhatsApp and Snapchat, it's like, ease of use. Right. So it's, it's easier to use. It's easier to communicate. Like, think about the way that there's this nail salon I go to in Toronto. The only reason why I choose to go to it, they're lovely people, they do a good job. But the reason why I go is because I can book my appointments through Instagram. I don't have to like pick up the phone, call them, like, give them four different potential options that work cross reference. Like, I just send them a message and then they'll be like, yeah, you're good to go. And that stream, like, that ease of access for like service providers and for businesses where it wasn't easy before is what will transform people. Choosing to use your business moving forward. All right, awesome. So actually really interesting. I saw this quote this week and I think it actually connects to what you were talking about with the four. I keep saying the Four Seasons, White Lotus.
- [41:11]
B
You did that a couple times in the segment.
- [41:12]
A
I know the quote, storytelling is the art of strategically withholding information.
- [41:19]
B
It goes back to that. It really does. I hadn't heard that quote before, but that's exactly what it is.
- [41:24]
A
You know what actually made me think so this is often attributed to Andrew Stanton, the Pixar filmmaker who was known for directing movies like Finding Nemo and.
- [41:32]
B
Wall E. You just avoided the Einstein tariff, so good.
- [41:37]
A
It was by Einstein. But I actually thought that this tied also to your quote about the truth.
- [41:45]
B
Will never get in the way of a good story.
- [41:47]
A
Yeah, yeah. And I, I just thought that this is like a really good wrap up before we get into hot or not. Because one, people don't often think also that they have a good story. And like everybody has a good story, but they, they're not prepared to tell a story that is interesting to somebody else because they, they don't think that their story is as good as somebody else's.
- [42:07]
B
I think if you look at it in the dating context, like if you sit down and somebody just goes, bah, right. Like there's no withholding of information. There's no mysteriousness, there's no anticipation. There's no. The recipient of the story has to be able to try to fill in gaps to allow them to become part of the storytelling. So if everything is just told to them, there's no. They're not participating in the story. And so the reader, the reader of the audience is actually should be an active participant in the story, looking ahead, saying, what did this mean? Is this, Is this what's going to happen next? Is that's what's going to happen next? Why are we here?
- [42:40]
A
Yeah, well, it also comes down to like, I think people also overthink what their story should be. It doesn't have to be perfect, like just testing out different angles and areas. The whole point is that most People don't try, they don't test things out.
- [42:55]
B
Well, we say this sometimes when we were developing content strategies in the past, like, engage. Like, ask your audience the question, do you know why I opened up a coffee shop? Like, that would be a good kind of Instagram thing. Do you think it was this, this and this? And then you could do one later that kind of talks a bit more about it. And you get people their curiosity. They want to know what the answer is because they're guessing. People always want to know if their guess is right at the end. And it keeps them hooked on whatever it is you're. You're telling them.
- [43:23]
A
Well, what I come back to is there's this influencer. Her name is Campbell Hunt Puckett, and she's kind of become famous on the Instagram and the Internet for be called before being called Pookie. And there's really not anything particularly interesting about her and her husband. But. But what's fascinating about it is that she just records like these mundane aspects of her life. Like, she just records these videos like every single day. And it's become captivating. Like yesterday, her video was like, her baby is like three or four months old. And they went to go get a photo of her for her passport and it was just like raw. Like it wasn't polished, it wasn't. It wasn't perfect. It was like walking in, holding the baby, showing the process, showing the photo, like in the parking lot, going home. And honestly, more easy. Or it's simpler to, to come in and get these like over, over produced, over curated videos where you're rehearsing and you're actually not really saying anything in and what we're more drawn towards. Because I'm. I'm not even particularly like, I don't even really love this influencer. There's nothing wrong with her. I'm not being disparaging, but that it's. That there's actually a shortage of just raw content. And it's a better way to figure out how to tell your story, what people are interested in. Because you're so fixated on like needing the lights and needing the teleprompter and needing someone to be there to ask you a question, have your script written out. It's just recording the day to day.
- [44:46]
B
I mean, it might have something to do with contrasts because you're on. You're on these sites that are like hyper stimulating you with. With all of these things. And so the brain will stop on something that's got some contrast if it's Showing human behavior, just doing ordinary things like. And that. That might be why it's appealing, but.
- [45:06]
A
I get where your brain is going because your brain is also being like, okay, how do I. How do I relate? What is Camille saying? But. But really the other day, the reason the video that you're. You're doing right now went so viral is you started explaining something to me and I'm like, stop talking. Just record this. Although what you had to say is very intelligent and it was an accumulation of a ton of content. It's that the videos for you that are really taking off right now are ones really where you just like put your phone there and you just say what you were about to say to me on camera and like, it's blowing up. The point is, is that I'm just trying to break down the. The over complexity that our brain. All the things that our brain tells us the content needs to look like or where it needs to be placed or at what time you need to record it. Breaking all that down and the simplicity of how that girl's recording and how many followers she has, it just shows you we want more of the raw than the hyper polished.
- [45:57]
B
That's why you can often make better content the way we are, where there's cameras to the sides because we're having a real conversation as opposed to if you're staring into a camera lens, all you can think of is, what do I look like now? What am I doing?
- [46:10]
A
What am I saying next? What do I. Yeah, right.
- [46:12]
B
So it's. It's nice. This type of camera setup allows you to do more authentic content. If you're trying to get your content out there.
- [46:19]
A
Totally. That's a perfect takeaway. Are we ready to roll into hot or not?
- [46:24]
B
I'm so ready.
- [46:25]
A
So April Fools, what was really interesting about this year is that it's really became a major place for brands to spend money, which is really fascinating. So the two core themes I saw come out of April Fools this year is one, a lot of brand collabs that you wouldn't have seen before. So kind of two businesses collabing together as a way to showcase in April Fools. So that was really interesting. And number two was the investment in effort, like how much budget was put into these April Fools effectively. Pranks. But like, just. Just to have like a social moment.
- [47:00]
B
Corporate boardrooms are looking for trends to follow and they don't get in front of the parade, but they wait for there to be like a trend there. And what I see is a lot of money being Wasted on April Fools because people think they need to do it. And then you don't have real creativity or artistry or genuineness to it. You're just doing it because other people are doing it. It's like, let's spend some money, let's do it. And it's like, very surface level, interesting, but not deep. That's what I find. So the things that attract me are the people who do April Fools in a way where they show they're not going to take themselves seriously. They actually do an April Fools that is shocking, that makes people laugh at themselves and that we love humans who can do that and we love companies who can do that.
- [47:40]
A
Well, I would say, I mean, I've had a very controversial opinion towards April Fools in the past few years because a lot of the, like, luxury brands were chiming into it where I didn't think they had a place. But what's really interesting is April Fools shows me that we are in an age where we want personality from brand. And the way to audit if a brand did a good job or a bad job on April Fools is based on how much of their authentic personality that you're seeing throughout the year was exercise on April Fools. Because it could become a place where you can see, like an agency shift happened and they're doing something that feels off brand because they feel like they have to versus really leaning into the tribe that they've built by authentically extending into a joke that we can all laugh in together. So, for example, Oura Ring did a really great one and they played on their name and it was like, like the aura ring. So, like, it can read your aura. So it was like dulu, like for delusional versus, like, happy. So, like, it was like they had this like, color chart of what your aura was saying. Now that to me was like, one, awesome. Because these are people who are healthy or are trying to be healthier, so like it. And people that are, like, prepared to buy anything for, like, health hacking. So it was funny. And two, it also played on their name like, that was very well done.
- [49:00]
B
Yeah, that's cool.
- [49:01]
A
Versus like, oh, my God, I gotta show you this. One, this was so dumb.
- [49:05]
B
So, like, how much are they talking to their own audience? Like, because I have an aura ring. I didn't hear about that necessarily or didn't get an email, but.
- [49:14]
A
Well, you're not really the target.
- [49:16]
B
But I'm a target of Oura Ring.
- [49:18]
A
You're a target of Oura Ring, but how else would they communicate to you? It was all over socials. So if you're not. If you're not like following people that are resharing, like, you're not really an Instagram consumer.
- [49:27]
B
See that? Got a million views on TikTok classic. This did. So I was on socials.
- [49:32]
A
Yeah, but that's not really. So this is. Okay, so this is Kourtney Kardashian.
- [49:36]
B
This should be an aura ring. If I did that, I'd take the aura ring design, I'd put it around your neck and make it look like the new aura ring. It goes around your neck and radiates to other people's aura apps what your karma is. And people will be like, that might.
- [49:49]
A
Be their one for next year.
- [49:50]
B
That's a good one.
- [49:51]
A
The aura dog collar. Yeah, get your dog sleep radar. I mean, there's so much they could do. Okay, so this was. This is hands down the worst one. This is definitely a not so Kourtney Kardashian's vitamin line. Let Me Grow. They have like, Let Me Sleep. Like, like Let Me Debloat. They've got this whole line of chewable vitamins that like taste yummy. They're candy. On April 1st, they introduced Lemme Grow furniture. So they make your hair grow. This is serious. This is real. They make your hair grow so strong that it can hold things. The Let Me Grow Furniture. Like, were they high? It's not even funny. A new formula that helps grow hair so strong it can hold up your entire supplement collection.
- [50:40]
B
That is firing offense bad.
- [50:42]
A
Featuring patented braid frame technology. A breakthrough in follicular architecture designed by Courtney. Approved by Gravity.
- [50:52]
B
I just want to suggest it was not merit based hires behind the people who came up with that campaign because there is nothing about that that is. Is curious, entertaining or clever.
- [51:03]
A
This is not real. So this is an absolute. No, that was quite literally the worst one.
- [51:10]
B
That's like so not fun. Like, it's nothing. It's a waste of money.
- [51:13]
A
It's a waste of everything.
- [51:15]
B
I wish I could get this. Burning up a pile of money.
- [51:19]
A
This one was my favorite. Look at this one. This is called the Duo. The Duo Carnival. Look how much money they spent on this. Oh, for Du Lingo World cruise with Carnival. And the whole idea is that you go to all these different continents and you like are learning the language while you're on this cruise.
- [51:35]
B
And that doesn't even have to be an April Fools. It's just. It could just be funny. Sorry, you can't go there. But you can learn the language on our app.
- [51:42]
A
The amount of production Value, though. Like, the green was redone.
- [51:46]
B
Oh, it's green screened and it's all. But that would just be a good campaign. But you know, if they wanted to take it to the next level, if Duolingo had money, is they should rent a ship and have the people who, on their gamification get to the highest levels, be invited on a cruise.
- [52:01]
A
Yeah.
- [52:02]
B
And then film content. Duolingo, just, everybody knows, is a language app. I Learned more in 6 months on Duolingo as an adult than I did my entire childhood taking French in the Canadian school system, where I learned nothing. Highly recommend it for all children. If you want them to learn a language, get them on Duolingo early so we can.
- [52:20]
A
I mean, all the monster. Not that great tower Beauty with drink. Poppy. It's like a spray. Honestly, this year we saw a lot of brand collabs. I got this one for you. Old Spice and Mike's Hot Honey. So they collaborate on a fake.
- [52:35]
B
It's so bad. It's just. This is. This is the masquerade of creative. A lot of the people who are in these positions, they're not actually that creative. Like Honey coming out of Old Spice. Like, it's just not that. That's what. That's why artistry is at 5% better than everybody else, because you really need to nail it. Like, if I'm going to do a collab for April Fools, I want to do something that's kind of shocking, but. But rooted in something that people were like, oh, my God, are they really doing that? Like, why would they do that to their brand? Yeah, no, I could like Honey and Old Spice, but it just. Dumb.
- [53:06]
A
It doesn't not.
- [53:07]
B
I just gave that a not.
- [53:08]
A
It's a complete nod. I. I think the brand collabs, tools. It's a shortcut. Yeah. It's a knot. It's really. It's a knot. It just. It shows you, though, that, like, I. I did think the Duolingo Dyson did a really good one that was like basically a airbrow. So they made this, like, it looked just like the air wrap, but like, to. To dry your eyebrows. And it was. I thought that was hilarious.
- [53:31]
B
I loved that it was taking it to another level. Like, they could have even gone further down the body and like, made something that was shocking and people are like, oh, my God, I'm not going to put that in my nether regions. You know what I mean? Like, that would be if you want to get attention. Like, I just.
- [53:46]
A
I. But I think that's. That would Be the. Like, there's no reason for them to do that for their brand. Like, they're innovative, technologically advanced. Like, they don't need to make dirty humor.
- [53:54]
B
Vacuums used to have a bad rep for certain things too. So, like, it would be. If you want to do something for April Fools, don't dabble in it.
- [54:03]
A
Like, I think that. That. That's an amazing thing. It's hilarious. I think it's hilarious.
- [54:10]
B
It's just awkward. Okay. You're doing eyebrows. Who cares?
- [54:12]
A
Actually is a perfect product launch for someone.
- [54:14]
B
It's a knot. Sorry.
- [54:16]
A
It's a not.
- [54:16]
B
It's not. Not enough.
- [54:19]
A
Not in the. The duolingo. I actually don't even think Dyson did it. I think a creator named Victoria did it on behalf of Dyson. And it might have been a collab I needed maybe. And I actually thought it was.
- [54:34]
B
If you're going to do April Fools, it's not. It shouldn't be on its face. Just, huh. It should be like, people are actually buying in, selling, like, trying to sign up, saying, where do I get it? You want to create, like, a movement of people who are like, oh, my God, how do I get this? This is crazy. You're like, nope, sorry. Obama is not an official spokesman of Old Spice. Do you know what I mean?
- [54:52]
A
Yeah, that's hilarious.
- [54:53]
B
Yeah.
- [54:53]
A
Yeah, that'd be good.
- [54:54]
B
Yeah, there you go. But I think that's kind of interesting for a creator to do.
- [54:58]
A
I think the Dyson airbrow is brilliant because it's. It. It makes fun of how much the creator economy and, like, influencers have, like, are just buying such expensive hair care products.
- [55:10]
B
Who is that handsome guy on the horse with no shirt on? That's kind of like the Old Spice. You know that guy like, oh, Captain Morgan. Yeah, it was like, remember there was a guy, like, with. And he's just very handsome. Like, what I would do for an April Fools is like, get an Obama and put it on and make it look like he signed a big deal with, you know, and then launch a commercial on that day.
- [55:27]
A
Well, that's what you would expect, right? Like, I think that's the future of where this is going. Like, you can tell that because we're living in such an age of brands, it's so much harder for brands to have these breakout moments that they need to go more and more crazy.
- [55:40]
B
This is what I talk about to you guys out there. It's hard to get good creative ideas. It's not somebody who says, oh, I worked as director of marketing For a bread company, they're not going to be creative. They're going to move product in a way that they were taught wherever they were taught. But success is based on creativity, intelligence that engages with people who are hungry for stories. And there's a saturation of activity, but not a lot of impact.
- [56:07]
A
That's exactly why I wanted to talk about April Fools is the brands that are sticking out, that are doing a good job. It's not the difference between them posting on social media or not. I actually had a conversation this morning with a really, a really big brand and it came down exactly to that. It's like, yeah, well, we've got all these people that can, like, that can execute and can do all these socials. And the core issue is that these brands all want to pay for action. They struggle with paying for the thinking, the ability to get to the executional element. What you just said is you nailed it. Like the reality of the issue is that every single brand is posting on socials. Every single brand is doing videos. If you're trying to give yourself that 10% difference, it comes down to the caliber and quality of thinking, which is hard to find.
- [56:48]
B
Creativity is in short supply. There's a lot of people who can go online and put graphics together and everything and say they were. But if you worked at a big corporation, 99 times out of 100, you're not creative. You can't get promoted in a corporation if you're creative. You have to push boundaries, you have to make mistakes, you have to do all this stuff. That's why I don't think most of these big agencies are that creative. They have a culture of authoritarian obedience and following the rules. It doesn't promote artistry.
- [57:14]
A
You nailed it. It's a great point. All right, let's move to Hot or Not from this week and then we will wrap this up. So Marnie did a collaboration with Hoka and Marnie is a mid to high range kind of clothing brand and it shows the kind of intersection of fashion and athletics. Right now.
- [57:32]
B
Hot or not that that was blocked me didn't catch my attention. I don't know.
- [57:37]
A
I think the Marnie x Hoka collaboration, although the design is not for me, like it's, to me it's quite ugly. I do think that it's, it's hot because it's, to me it's showcasing the move towards fashion and functionality in that it's becoming more acceptable to be more focused on kind of fitness and comfort.
- [58:03]
B
While say, maybe, while I'll say it's hot. If people can see the image of these shoes. I think what is not hot right now are Air Force Ones. I think everybody and their brother has an Air Force One to try and make it look like, hey, I'm a cool wealthy guy who can take myself, you know, less seriously by wearing. I think what's coming into style is more of a fashion statement from a sneaker.
- [58:24]
A
Yes.
- [58:25]
B
Like a colored. I know sambas are popular, but like wearing red sambas, you know, is where we're kind of going. Right. As opposed to just wearing one brand, this Air Force One, which by this point everybody is wearing. So I think you're going to see kind of a trend in having sneakers say more about you, you or your mood.
- [58:43]
A
Well, that's what's really interesting is that sneaker culture is no longer a subculture. Right. Like every brand is getting into sneakers because it's now not as like low class or casual to wear sneakers. And that's what you're talking about. It's like in your world for where you sit, a lot of the businessmen are now opting for Air Force Ones. But like only Air Force ones. Like it's a copy and paste style look. And what this shows you is that there's range to showcase your personality by way of shoes.
- [59:15]
B
So they may be getting ahead of something because people want to hot collab.
- [59:18]
A
I like it because Hoka to me is a. It's a cool brand. It's a brand, it has its own look, it has its own style. But kind of collaborating with Marnie is to me like the right move. Like they didn't do the Zakmu, you know, or they didn't do like a, a Gucci Ex Hoka, like it was the right kind of brand comparison.
- [59:40]
B
You know, what on Cloud should do is do a collab with kind of a business casual brand, you know, because I think somebody can take the space of Air Force Ones at one point if they do it well.
- [59:51]
A
Yeah.
- [59:51]
B
You know, because I think, I think a lot of business people want a more comfortable shoe.
- [59:56]
A
Agreed.
- [59:56]
B
The heck is this here?
- [59:58]
A
Moving on to the next one. This is Bonds, an Australian underwear brand, and Robert Irwin.
- [60:04]
B
Who's Robert, Steve Irwin's son.
- [60:06]
A
Yeah. Is the underwear model with the underwear and the snakes in the iguana. And it's Bonds made for Down Under. Hot or not.
- [60:18]
B
Plays on words. Interesting, Right? Bonds Down Under. You know, I just for me, it doesn't make me want to buy the underwear. Seeing a guy like a Calvin Klein model with a lizard in his Arms. But.
- [60:32]
A
Well, it's a whole push. They did. Like you can see here, there's like a bunch of.
- [60:36]
B
But it doesn't speak to why the underwear is better.
- [60:38]
A
No.
- [60:39]
B
Right. Like, you know, there's a lizard in my underwear. Okay, maybe had that accusation before, but I don't want to.
- [60:47]
A
A snake in your pants. Oh, my God. Sos. Everybody listening? Sos.
- [60:52]
B
You're the one who's showing me half naked guys with underwear.
- [60:55]
A
This week's Hot or Not. This is a big campaign drop.
- [60:58]
B
Steve Irwin's son needs to. I don't know, I don't think it's. I don't think his dad would be proud. That's what I would say.
- [61:05]
A
Well, I, I'm not gonna lie. I'm actually gonna give us a hot. Yeah, I'm gonna give it a hot. And I'm gonna give it a hot. Because they just launched into the U.S. you know, there's few Australian cultural icons that are representative of Australia. Like there's a lot of Australian actors that act in American movies that lose. Like Margot Robbie. Like, very few people know that she's Australian. Same with like Chris Hemsworth. Like they, they mask their Australian accent. So it's, it's, it's harder for a brand to break through in launching into the US with connecting with someone that would. Like we both right away knew who Steve Irwin Irwin would be. And the post before him is the Day usa. So you can tell that this is their way of breaking into the US market, which I don't think a lot.
- [61:53]
B
Of young guys his age know who Steve Irwin is. I think you nail no because you're a little bit more exposed to the international world. I know because Steve Irwin is more from your time, my generation. But for the.
- [62:07]
A
When I was a kid, his two kids had a kids show. It was his daughter named like Kenya or something. It was like a different name. And then it was her, the son of the brother with Steve. So there was a big push for kind of my age and a few years younger for them to know who the Irwins were. It was like Zubumafu. And then this show or like the show is on. I love Zooboomafu with the Graf brothers. Okay, so you're driven or not?
- [62:35]
B
Yeah, Like, I'm not gonna buy it after watching that. Like, I don't know why it's good. I just know Steve Irwin's kid plays with animals while in his underwear.
- [62:43]
A
But think about if you were. Okay, hilarious. But think about if you're a brand.
- [62:48]
B
That has you have to leverage what you have.
- [62:50]
A
It's that limit you have.
- [62:50]
B
And I think Steve Irwin built it. I don't know if it's over.
- [62:54]
A
Over a random underwear model.
- [62:56]
B
Sure. Yeah. Like, you have to have a positioning thing. But what I would say if I was doing with him is like, I followed in my father's footsteps. I am hiking all the time. I'm active. And one thing that burns my ass is chafe. And so I've developed a pair of underwear that was. That does. You know what I mean? Like, you kind of get into the. A connection between the brand and him, but just you're using a brand of a famous Australian without a connection to why Steve Irwin was famous.
- [63:22]
A
Okay. But you also haven't watched. They've launched a bunch of videos on their socials. You don't know what their message has been. Right. So connecting it with the animals and with Steve Irwin is. And his son. I get what you're saying, but.
- [63:35]
B
But if they launched it where they gave 5% of profits to animal refuges. Right. Or they did something, or it was made of synthetic or bamboo that was good for the environment, didn't put colors on it.
- [63:46]
A
We don't have a spectrum. It's like a binary. It was a complete miss or it was a good job.
- [63:52]
B
It's is a giant miss again.
- [63:54]
A
All right.
- [63:54]
B
Not.
- [63:57]
A
All right. Well, here's one. I hope you don't rain on my parade because I'm living for this one.
- [64:03]
B
Well, don't tell me ahead of time because then it might make me.
- [64:06]
A
I'm not going to be primed to.
- [64:07]
B
Go way or the other.
- [64:08]
A
That's.
- [64:09]
B
That's actually true.
- [64:10]
A
So Good American, it's actually the jean brand owned by Khloe Kardashian. However, it's be. It's has its own life because Good American is really kind of the first jean brand that focus on creating jeans for truly, like, all sizes. Because a lot of curvier women have a hard time fitting into standard sizes of jeans. So they were more focused on, like, serving curvaceous women. And Good American has done really well because of that. And they just.
- [64:35]
B
Let me just say before we get in it, like, maybe we need to come back. We need to bring back the stirrup track tracksuits. Do you remember them from Cotton Ginny?
- [64:43]
A
No, those were big a few years ago.
- [64:45]
B
Do you remember them like the tracksuit with this. With the little thing under the heel. That might be something.
- [64:49]
A
That was your segue.
- [64:50]
B
I'm just saying, like, if people are having a Hard time fitting in jeans. Maybe we can bring those pants back. Okay. Anyhow, let's go.
- [64:56]
A
No, it's because, like, people who have different dimensions can't fit into standard size jeans. Right. Like, if you have. If you have larger hips.
- [65:04]
B
Yeah, yeah, I got you.
- [65:04]
A
Right. Like, it's very different than someone like me that goes more straight down. Like, we. Like, they can have a smaller waist, but they can't be at the same 27 Jean. Right. Like, so that, that's what.
- [65:13]
B
Have a different way of sizing. Not just the waist, not just slim or straight. But they should.
- [65:18]
A
Yeah. So. And that's why it's done really quite well. And so they did a brand collab with Dolly Parton, and I actually thought it was a really well done collaboration because they're really leaning into kind of.
- [65:32]
B
This, like, yeah, she's curvy, she's cool, she's American, She's. She's real. Right. And. And loved by women and men for a variety of different reasons. Like, that's a. That's a great ambassador for a brand that's speaking to humans who are trying to live their best life in their own way.
- [65:48]
A
And the reason why I really loved it is I love that they're embracing the term good American for body types that aren't traditionally seen as American. And that's really where, like, let me break it down. So Khloe Kardashian, born and raised in America, is a very tall, curvaceous woman, and a lot of who she's selling to are Americans, but have been almost ignored by that. Like, because. Because the whole jeans, like Levi's, like, it's all been very, like, it's a very iconic American style. Right. And it didn't represent a lot of who were American women. So to kind of go back to those American roots, but to read as.
- [66:29]
B
Well, invented for men in the workplace.
- [66:31]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [66:32]
B
Originally, like, they weren't. They weren't designed for women.
- [66:34]
A
Yeah.
- [66:35]
B
At first.
- [66:35]
A
And I. What I just love is that they've gone back to kind of. They're calling these jeans, like, they're good American. And the average kind of person that fits the brand is kind of this, like, the modern American woman, you know, like, it's a multicultural woman. It's. It's a more curvaceous body. It's focusing on what it means to be American today. I just thought it was a really iconic collaboration.
- [66:56]
B
Good American is. Is pretty good, but it's, It's. The Dolly Parton affiliation is a great idea for jeans. Because she made jeans amazing years ago and definitely will welcome people into the tribe. What I want to do is find out more about Tiger Jeans of Sweden, because I fell in love with those jeans when you made me buy them.
- [67:15]
A
So what's really interesting about this past week with Hot or Not is that literally every single one of them was a collab. And it shows that it's no longer interesting to do a collab when every single brand activation was a collaboration with another brand. It shows you that it's being overdone.
- [67:29]
B
Yeah. It's lazy. And I can just see it in the corporate boardrooms, hey, everybody's doing a collab. Who can we do a collab? And then somebody goes, I've got a great idea for a collab. And then they mislabel that as real creativity. And so now everybody is just doing it. So when you see in your industry, everybody is doing something, it's no longer hot. You want to be at the front of the trend, get your arbitrage out of it early, and then be designing something new when all of the rest are moving into what you. What you've caught.
- [68:01]
A
And it's just such a hack to be able to sell more because you feel like there's this element of scarcity. Right. Like you want to get. It's two brands that you're supposed to like, and because they're. They're tapping into something together, it's not going to be there forever. So you need to, like, buy it now. But the problem is when every brand that you like is collabing with someone, it loses its novelty. And that's the problem with collabs right now, is that even April Fools, like, April Fools this past week was just these fake collabs. So it's just. It's the overuse of collaboration where it's either authentic or it's not happening by way of a joke.
- [68:34]
B
You know, the shortcut is kind of like you think novelty by itself contributes to your brand. Novelty might make people say, oh, but what I found in a lot of the collabs we've talked about is I didn't think there was perfect brand synergy.
- [68:48]
A
Yeah.
- [68:48]
B
Like, what would be amazing is I'm in one segment and I have a brand, and then I found somebody in another segment that reflects a lot of the same things, and people can go, oh, that makes perfect sense why these two are doing it. I think some of them are just too convenient and too easy.
- [69:02]
A
I think really, at its core, the issue is that the industry is actually really quite Small and truly what it comes down to is it's the old boys club of PR as a different monster in that it's not that these brand collabs are founded from a place of authenticity and it's what the customer wants, but it's more or less that the consultant or the agency or the marketing person knows somebody, the other brand and you're able to just do a liaison, a work through. Like I saw a brand recently do another collab with Arohan for a drink. It's a shower head filter. And I'm like, there's no place for this to be done. Strategically, it's clear that you know someone or you knew a brand that had done a drink with with Arohan before and you had a connection to do a call in because it was cool for, for a solid 15 minutes to have drinks with Arohan. But it's not at the point of like where brands where there's no connection to it are just dropping these drinks because they know people at the company.
- [70:01]
B
Yeah. It shows kind of a lack of focus on brand because they're sacrificing a brand growth for a novelty impact. You know what I mean?
- [70:09]
A
Totally.
- [70:09]
B
And even from an investment perspective, when I think about it, if I see a big company that's just doing collabs, like it might be time, I know that internally in the corporate boardroom, they're not populated by creative thinkers. You know, it might be time to exit that company if all they're doing is collabs at this moment.
- [70:27]
A
And this is where I even struggle with it myself. Because having a drink at Arahan is really quite cool. But when a shower head company can have a drink at Airhan, it's no longer actually creative, it's just who can just spend the most money. And that's what's actually missing in branding is it's if it's connections and money only, then it becomes very deflating and frustrating for brands to actually be focused on.
- [70:50]
B
Like cutting through would be collaborating with influential people in communities that represent your brand. You know what I mean? Like taking the collaboration from, you know, clinking glasses with other corporate rich people, but finding humans who you can collab with that make sense to the brand.
- [71:07]
A
There's just more to it than riding off of, of a status that a brand had. And that's what people miss is that there's cachet, is something for a reason. If it's just purchasable to like tack onto your brand, that's why it's called the Art of the brand. Like, there has to be an art to it. And if it's just a copying and.
- [71:27]
B
Pasting just to sell more products this month because we've announced a collab, you.
- [71:32]
A
Know, and, and that's the. The problem is, and I actually blame the brand is that they're. They're asking so much from these people who have a job to be done. Like, they have a job. And there. When there isn't, focus on the brand making a meaningful relationship with its customer. Over time, you just rush things and then you just. Every brand in their mother has a drink at Arahan, and then it completely loses its cachet.
- [71:53]
B
Interesting, because when you look at the big brands that are making mistakes, they're doing bad collabs.
- [71:58]
A
Yeah.
- [71:59]
B
And what I want to talk about next week because this is one of my favorite golf weeks because it's the Masters this week, and I think the Masters tournament and Augusta is one of the best brands in the United States.
- [72:13]
A
It is. And it's got a great logo.
- [72:15]
B
Yeah, it's got a great logo. The ceremony of the green jacket. I want to talk about next week maybe, and why that ceremony has given it such prestige by having that kind of experience that people talk about. And so we'll watch golf this.
- [72:30]
A
Well, our friend Holly Ledbetter is leading the morning message at the Masters. I. I could hopefully get her on out of the brand. I know she wants to be on.
- [72:38]
B
It, but let's get her on for next week. Maybe a guest bring her in. I know I got our other friend at Melbourne there, but, you know, I wish I was there because I love golf is good at branding at the high level. I, I love how it does branding at the high level. And so we'll come back next week maybe with a hot or not on golf branding at Augusta or something like that.
- [72:56]
A
Yeah, let's talk about the Masters. I talked about tradition. That's what brands are missing, is like they're, they're missing that great things happen over time. And that's where I'm taking a run at, at these hot or not collabs. Like, they're boring for us to talk about because if it's just everything that dropped this week is two brands coming together to sell more product. And it doesn't have that legacy or that focus on story that we talked about in the four seasons. It's just, it's transient.
- [73:19]
B
Yeah. It's interesting on collab because in the past you'd hire a celebrity to represent your brand, but we're moving towards having personal brands collaborating with product brands. So now it's kind of two brands rather than a spokesperson. Like, it's an interesting change of language.
- [73:36]
A
Yeah, it is. It is. Well, that wraps up this week's episode of our the Brand. Thanks for tuning in, guys. And if you enjoy this, please share it, because shares are more valuable than follow. So if you're looking to support anyone on socials, even your own brand, ask people you know to share your content.
- [73:52]
B
Check out Camille Moore's social media masterclass if you want to up your game.
- [73:56]
A
And if you want 15% off, just DM me on Instagram and give them that to the real homies.