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- [00:00]
A
I actually haven't talked about this at all in the podcast or in any video, but I lost my TikTok. There's this whole like black market community of people that are paying people off at TikTok to get your account unlocked. And it's this crazy, like black market thing where you're paying thousands and thousands of dollars and you're paying off of TikTok employees.
- [00:21]
B
We know how much that Facebook was.
- [00:23]
A
$300,000 USD for a day surgery. RT launched its new design, new love bracelet. It's called the unlimited design. The first time they've redone the love design in 56 years. Jimmy Fallon launches this TV show called On Brand.
- [00:40]
B
The concept is interesting, right? But I just don't know the criteria. When I looked at that show, I can tell why it's not doing well because it's not saying anything interesting.
- [00:47]
A
Chad GPT, it has its first ever brand campaign. But what's hilarious.
- [00:52]
B
Can you spell irony?
- [00:54]
A
It's not leveraging AI.
- [00:56]
B
Who is ChatGPT's customer? An AI person or a human?
- [01:00]
A
Well, human.
- [01:01]
B
So why would you have an AI campaign if AI doesn't use ChatGPT?
- [01:05]
A
What a brand, what a brand, what a brand what a mighty good brand now what a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good. Welcome back to another week of the Art of the Brand podcast.
- [01:19]
B
Welcome back to the number one marketing and branding podcast in the world. In the world, in the world.
- [01:26]
A
It's like we're besties. We're going to take the all ins. We're going to call each other the besties.
- [01:32]
B
Well, I've got a lot of besties with benefits.
- [01:34]
A
Oh, boy, we've got a lot to cover today. We're going to be chatting everything from very light tldr on the new TikTok structure, Cartier's new design in 56 years. Two tales of plastic surface surgeons. ChatGPT has its first branding campaign, understanding what content to build for each platform. Let's go, let's go. All right, so we're gonna kick off the first topic. So there's been, I'm sure you guys have heard in the news, but Tick Tock has officially been acquired by Oracle, Silver Lake and Andreessen Horowitz. They have an 80 share and it's basically the VC companies. Andreessen Horsewitz represents VC companies and then Oracle and Silver Lake are separate businesses. And then there's a 20% ownership for the Chinese Bite Dance ownership for the TikTok platform. And I really want to chat about the state of TikTok, what it means for brands, what to expect, etc. Because TikTok has been a huge platform.
- [02:33]
B
Yeah. TikTok to me is kind of like this, this giant undiscovered territory. Like, people talk about it, but nobody really knows what's going on with it. It's so effective in North America. But if you need to get something done with that company.
- [02:47]
A
It was. So you gotta speak in past tense. It was.
- [02:51]
B
Well, I'm just saying, like. And so now it's even more so because now we don't know what's going to happen. Are we going to get algorithm divergence?
- [02:58]
A
Yeah.
- [02:58]
B
Are we going to have an algorithm on US soil that's different than the rest of the soil? Tick Tock Secret Sauce was the algorithm, but the Chinese aren't going to share it with the US company because there's actually a lot of intelligence gathering going on behind the scenes to this.
- [03:12]
A
That's how we got here.
- [03:13]
B
The Canadian, the American government wants to know what is Tick Tock monitoring? Like, if you're, if you work for any security establishment in the us you cannot have Tick Tock on your phone. You cannot have a phone that had Tick Tock on it. You have to actually have to have a new one. You're not allowed to have it because of those security concerns. And then people are concerned. Well, now TikTok is going to be supervised by the US government. What does that mean? Like, so there's a whole. All that we know is that TikTok works when you make good content, it helps your brand, it helps your business. But I wouldn't call it, you know, old reliable right now in terms of doing, you know, depending on it working in the future. And you have a personal example of exactly what happened there. That's tragic.
- [03:52]
A
Well, it's got there in a second. But you bring up some really great points and makes it very difficult to have a conversation about the TikTok because it was almost was like this crazy flash of light. Like it came so quickly. It was the fastest adopted app in history. It got the fastest adoption for a billion users per platform per day in history. And it was all because of the algorithm. Like we have never seen such an addictive algorithm ever created. And it was crazy when we kind of heard these security concerns, it was like shut down and the algorithm was taken out and then it was kind of the app. You kind of became this no man's land of. Is it still extremely important for brands to be on it? Why isn't it performing? Is it just me. Is it the platform? What's happening? Because the app isn't obviously gonna communicate and be like, hey, we've taken our most proprietary aspect, which is the algorithm's sorting mechanism and the ability to share what it wants on your feed.
- [04:54]
B
Algorithm divergence is changing people. Nobody knows what's going on. There's tremendous upside, but there's also a big risk that can't be relied upon. And you had an experience with TikTok that showcased that real time.
- [05:04]
A
Yeah, I actually haven't talked about this at all in the podcast or in any video, but I lost my TikTok and we had a ton of followers. I'd been building it for four years. It's actually where I had my first viral video. Like, TikTok for me was really where this all happened. And I woke up and it was, it was. It all happened so fast. And the way that it like, like it goes through the steps, it's actually like, really kind of anticlimactic. But I got this, like, push notification that I'd been logged out. There was like some suspicious stuff. And then I had to sign back in. And then I got the push notification sent to my text message and I logged in. And then I got this pop up being like, I've had multiple community violations and my account's been shut down. Do you like. And it's like, accept or cancel. I don't even know if it said accept or cancel. It was like a regular button that I was like, okay, what does this mean? Click. And then it's like it all collapsed. It was gone.
- [05:55]
B
It's interesting to me because it's like an athlete, like, whatever level you are as an athlete, it still sucks to do the hard run. Like, you're still exhausted. You never, you never stop being tired. Even if you're Olympic athlete versus somebody starting. And if you're a content creator, you have challenges, but when you're an accomplished content creator, you have challenges. Right. Like, you're always going to have challenges. We're going to be judged on how we deal with them. And the context for what happened here is TikTok had been amazing, was still growing, and we were selling courses and cohorts, and because we were doing so much content, you just said, hey, put your email in the comments and I'll send you the link. And that one thing first offense led to the cancellation of the whole account.
- [06:36]
A
Well, they basically said that they'd given me multiple community violations. Basically. It was exactly what you're saying, because I had asked people to send me their email and that is considered a phishing scam, which is against their community violations. So that simple act is what shut it down.
- [06:52]
B
And we had never done that before. But I think we were just getting.
- [06:55]
A
But I do it every day on Instagram. Yeah, yeah, no, I guess it's how it's impossible on a non link based platform when I can't like if I'm talking about the podcast, I can't link our podcast in the TikTok video. But people want to watch the full thing. Or if there's like a sub stack that I'm like, I can't link, I can't put the full link in there. So if you want to like get access info on my cohort, read the substack I've been doing is like my team like manually sends it to every single person that, that like that provides.
- [07:26]
B
If they DM you a word. Because then it happens on the private dms.
- [07:30]
A
No, if they comment on the post. No, no.
- [07:32]
B
If they comment on the post then we DM them something.
- [07:34]
A
Yes, because. But basically like asking for the emails was considered phishing. But TikTok doesn't have any formal review process. When you hit the review it goes through again through AI. So the same AI that shuts it down is the same AI that's reviewing your appeal and it obviously declined it and then we basically just couldn't get it back. The thing that's crazy about TikTok is that there's this whole like black market community of people that are paying people off at TikTok to get your account unlocked. And it's this crazy like black market thing where you're paying thousands and thousands of dollars and you're paying off of TikTok employees.
- [08:13]
B
I actually think it goes deeper and this is where businesses can be nefarious. You can through organized crime pay to have a competitor's TikTok shut down. Yeah, right. And so what? But it's through the Chinese gangs and they'll just go to China and get somebody to shut down an account that's very successful and then you have to pay somebody to get it back up. Like it's, it's. Which is why to bring it back to Oracle, getting involved, at least at the US running of Tick tock we should be able to insulate from that because the one thing about the U.S. it's a lot harder to do that type of stuff. But when everything is housed over in China, money through organized crime can get any, any competitor gone. So I, I think that might have happened to you? Because we didn't have community guideline infractions sent to us at any time before that.
- [08:55]
A
Well, I had before like multiple accounts pretending to be me with like 50 and 60, 000 followers that were literally ripping people off with bitcoin scams. And, and it was impossible to shut them down.
- [09:06]
B
We reported them.
- [09:08]
A
But like the real account that's asking people to send them info for someone that they're asking the bitcoin scams, I would, my fake account would message them and be like, hey, thanks for following me. Like, do you like the account? Like I was prompting the message on my account. It's someone indicating they're interested in sending me their email for me to contact them off the platform. That's like very different and should at least be relooked at because again, it's not a, like a link based platform.
- [09:35]
B
Yeah, I saw a difference recently with Instagram and TikTok because I did put the same video on both but TikTok put a sensitive, like a sensitive comment to it that took it off the for you page. But Instagram kept it going. So there's definitely algorithm and rules based ways of looking at things and it's very hard to stay on top of everything.
- [09:53]
A
Well, I learned a lot from that. And I would say like the biggest thing is you cannot be platform dependent. And it was really the best lesson for me. And it, it could have been like if had this happen 12 months earlier would have been way more stressful for me. And that was where it was really fortunate on a timing perspective because things are going to go wrong, like they're going to go bad. Especially when you, when you realize, when you reap the benefits and the rewards of having a personal brand online, like it has really transformed our lives and our business. But when you also become so dependent on the platform, it's so important for you to realize like how quickly everything can be taken away from you. Because without the platform you actually lose.
- [10:34]
B
Everything to anybody who's insurance out there. It'd be interesting to know if you could buy insurance. Like you can buy key man or key person insurance in case somebody gets sick who's critical. But I wonder if you can buy insurance for having your platform canceled by something like that. Because when I do coaching for companies that want to scale, when I sit down with them in the first couple meetings, I always look at, okay, where's your revenue coming? And one of the, it's funny that we didn't do that ourselves as much, but when you're dependent. 80% of your revenue is dependent on one customer, one platform, one thing. I immediately say, okay, let's build some contingency models here that can help. But we had been doing it indirectly because you had started killing it on Instagram.
- [11:12]
A
Because I had to, because TikTok isn't working. Like, TikTok's app has been down for, for over a year. And it was like it was killing our lead inbounds. It was killing the amount of deals we had. And I had to start focusing on Instagram, which was the biggest blessing that I saw the decline sooner, because if I hadn't been building up Instagram, we would have been screwed. And that is really the biggest lesson also is not only did I have to pivot, you know, I was refocusing already on another platform. That's why I really didn't. We've had arguments about this. I didn't really care about the TikTok. And he's like, that's not relatable because it was so. It was so big. But how well Instagram is performing and how frustrating TikTok was from a lack of performance standpoint. It was the best lesson to learn because it made me refocus on what content mediums are working. Refocus on, like, where are people coming in? Where is the business seeing support results? And, and really three, like, you can never put all of your eggs in one basket.
- [12:09]
B
I think TikTok too, is growing internationally. Like Meta and Instagram have a kind of a North American focus, although Facebook is very popular out east. But there's a saturation of content everywhere. Right? And I think with TikTok at one point you can get success, but the more saturated a platform comes, sometimes it can be harder for the algorithm to find you, but you need to then make better content. So we're always in a. We're always in a race to make better content. And I think what was happening at TikTok, it was getting saturated with just everybody doing trends like they were just Everybody was doing 100x more on it and copying stuff. And the good content can still do well on TikTok. It's just if you're a North American or European, I would not rely on TikTok. I would use it, but I wouldn't rely on it. I would pivot to platforms that are, that are safer.
- [12:58]
A
I take a different approach. Truthfully. I would not be focusing on TikTok right now other than being. If you're a brand that can afford to be there for. As this algorithm is changing like with Oracle, with the introduction of what's coming, they're launching this in Jan. So if you have the money to spend on kind of being there, as it's being rebuilt to try it, be there.
- [13:20]
B
But otherwise TikTok is not about spending.
- [13:22]
A
Views alone don't matter, it's quality of views. So the quality of views that I'm getting on Instagram are disproportionately better from a business standpoint than the views that I'm getting. I'm still getting strong views on TikTok. Like I got 300,000 on or a Hailey Bieber post, but I got no business inquiries from it. Whereas the same post on Instagram, I got several intro bookings. We got a bunch of people that are reaching out. That difference in viewership matters greatly.
- [13:53]
B
Instagram's algorithm seems to be tremendously more effective in terms of when you see who's following, who's commenting. It's exactly the people that we used to say TikTok would put your stuff in front of. Now Instagram, the amount of people in the beauty world, celebrities.
- [14:09]
A
Yeah.
- [14:09]
B
That are just, you can just see cmo, CEO, like on posts that aren't in the millions, but posts that are in the 25 to 60,000, you're getting really high impact people.
- [14:21]
A
And that's where, when you're, when we're talking about, you know, should you be betting on TikTok? It's complicated because if you're a brand, if you're a marketing person that works for a brand new, your brand should have a dedicated creative and budget for TikTok, but only if they can justify being there for if and when the algorithm builds itself back up. But from a, like if you're a personal brand or you're a solopreneur, you're doing this yourself. Where should you be focusing? It really should be on Instagram, Facebook or YouTube. And I do want to quickly talk about the content per platform. But before we get there, when you were talking about the key man insurance, that was a really relevant piece to this kind of, this really like philosophical experience I went through with, with losing TikTok because I spoke with a lot of influencers and think about like being an influencer and your entire livelihood is built off of negotiating deal size based on your follower account. And it's all gone, right. There's influencers that I'd like half a million that TikToks like I shut it down and they couldn't get it back and that's their only job and they don't have other platforms to build off of.
- [15:33]
B
And there's no one, 800 customer.
- [15:35]
A
No.
- [15:36]
B
And the thing, the thing that annoys me about Facebook or Meta is like, now they're like, oh, you can speak to somebody in customer support if you pay 200 bucks a month.
- [15:44]
A
I would happily do that though. Like, I'm okay with there being a cost doing business. But that's my point. Like, that's my frustration with TikTok is one of our clients. It's hilarious. Or like TikTok is like a foldable table, two people in one phone. It's like just, it's such a joke that this is such a massive global platform and it's just so poorly run. You don't, like, nobody works there.
- [16:05]
B
We don't know who runs it. That's the thing about China is that we have very bad intelligence assets there. Like, we really don't know what goes on.
- [16:12]
A
Even the US arm, I'm saying the clients that we work with that are big influencers, the US arm, they go to these TikTok events and they're like, is this real life? Like, this is one of the biggest platforms on the planet and you can like hardly put together an event.
- [16:26]
B
It's almost like they deliberately send somebody who doesn't know enough to answer the questions and it just makes it seem exclusive. It's crazy.
- [16:33]
A
But the core point with that is like, that is the story to how I lost the platform. And what can you learn from it? It was actually funny. We were golfing yesterday and I saw you between shots, you pulled out your phone and it was like Instagram. You were like loading the feed where it's like the video is pulled up, the short form video. Or maybe it was TikTok. I think it was Instagram though. And I saw you swipe two videos and like lock your phone between shots. And it was such a strong way to reinforce to you guys understanding the difference between each platform and the role that content plays. Because people talk a lot like, you know, by platform content. YouTube, Shorts, Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn, you know, Facebook. They're all very different platforms for what people are trying to consume and what they're going there for, hopefully.
- [17:19]
B
I was checking a post to see how well it was doing and not.
- [17:22]
A
Just it was a golf swing video.
- [17:23]
B
Scrolling. Yeah, I was golfing like crap. So I was probably trying to fix my swing.
- [17:27]
A
Like really a 30 second, just quick, like learner.
- [17:29]
B
But it's like Instagram is like the immediate hit now. In some ways I even find like going to the bathroom. You know what I mean? Like, it's almost like we can't be. We can't be not doing anything because the phone has so much stuff on it. And so what our brains have now done is determine that there are some apps for different periods of time we have to spend.
- [17:48]
A
Well, that's exactly what you should be thinking about. It is that Instagram and TikTok are like quick dopamine hits. Like, people are going for 10 to 15 minutes. You're really going on those platforms to learn something and feel like a satisfaction for that small use of time. That's why hooks are so important. So whether you're like a solopreneur or you're a brand, if your content isn't hooky, like, if it doesn't have a visual hook, like something visually happening in the beginning of the video, a text hook, where, like, you're explaining what to expect but, like, not giving it all away at the top, like a text hook, an audio hook. When you start with, like, you will not believe how big this cupcake was or something, you make something that's like, hook. Like a. The video starts with a hook or the caption hook of. I wasn't expecting him to say that. Right where you watch the video.
- [18:40]
B
I feel like digital media has. Has kind of lowered the bar for advertising in a way, because in the old days, advertisers, they studied human psychology, right? They knew that there were subliminal messages of, you know, people have a short attention span, so you need to. You need to attract the reptile or the rat brain to pay attention. And it's like, sex, drugs endanger riches. And so how do you get somebody to pause? And I don't find digital media has spent enough time, like the agencies we've worked on figuring out, how do you make somebody pause? It's like, oh, do a hook, do something. And it seems very inexact, as opposed to, like, if you're going on Instagram, you want to be. You want to be relevant on Instagram, how do you get people to notice your content?
- [19:22]
A
Again, it's like, why we're breaking this down? Like, what is someone coming to that platform for, to be educated or entertained? How do you get them to stop the scroll? You have to do a hook. And often if it's. If you're selling something, like, if you're not giving information away, like, this content is informative. So it's. We. We still leverage hooks, but it's. When you're a brand that's like trying to sell the new collection. Holy. You better have some hooks. And that's why Zach Moo does such a great job is everything is so visual, it's so aesthetic. It hooks people. And you can tell right away what brand it is. Like, they're investing so, so much in that visualization. But then another piece to it too is, why should somebody stop and scroll this? Like, what problems are you answering? Why are you like, if someone is giving you three seconds of their day or two minutes of their day during that 10 minute where they're opening their phone, like, that's it. That's an ins. That's not like, that's a privilege. That's not a right.
- [20:16]
B
That's why it's a problem for people who are more cerebral. And we've talked about this before, like you have the elephant rider and you have the elephant. Right? And the cerebral thinking people are like, I'm going to make some great content. I'm going to give this, this and this. Right. But the thing that actually stops the scroll is the elephant responding to something that's emotional to a human. Right?
- [20:34]
A
Yeah.
- [20:34]
B
And then once you've got the elephant to stop, then the driver or the rational brain can then process your content and say, hey, I really like this, I value this, I want to follow it. And they can take steps, but if you're not speaking to both the elephant and the elephant rider, you're going to have a hard time getting people to engage.
- [20:51]
A
Totally. But that also brings up a good point too. And where YouTube comes into this, right. Is someone that's going to. YouTube is looking for something very different than Instagram and TikTok. Right? YouTube. You don't go for five or ten minutes YouTube. You go for either research like you're going to actually really learn about something or you're going to go and consume info from your tried and true. Right. Seldom do you just like aimlessly scroll on the homepage of YouTube. Take typically you go to like the podcast or that creator you follow, or you're specifically going to learn about the Dyson V10 and how to fix that sucking noise. Like you're going for a specific reason.
- [21:25]
B
I find on YouTube. I love YouTube. So I'll put a search in. You know how to fix my golf swing and it'll put some videos there, but it'll also have just other random ones. And the beauty of it is, is those thumbnails that are good. Sometimes I can put in how to switch fix a golf swing and end up clicking on a video on Another.
- [21:42]
A
Topic, yes, that can happen. But your intention for why you went to YouTube was very different than why you would open up an Instagram or you'd open TikTok. And that's the way that people and brands need to be thinking. There's a strong space for brands on YouTube, especially if there's an element to research for your brand. So a lot of people, you know, if you're selling, let's say for example, you're selling a development, right. Instagram and TikTok is where you're going to like plant the seed. You're going to speak to that rat brain. Right. What are their problems? Well, they're looking for somewhere to spend the cold months. Maybe they're looking for somewhere to put their dollar. From an investment standpoint, Instagram, Facebook is where you're really going to hook their attention. But YouTube is where you talk to them about like the schooling system in that area, talking to them about investment in getting a passport and what that means. Right. How to do local banks offer mortgages. What is the current in like structure. And, and we're doing this right now with a brand out of Costa rica. Like it. YouTube is where you go to really further go down that sales funnel when you talk about brands not thinking enough about that buyer psychology, they're not thinking enough about that consumer funnel and what it requires to get somebody to convert.
- [22:57]
B
You know what? I think one of the reasons why we're doing well on Instagram is your carousels are actually meeting a need on Instagram. So usually you go to YouTube if you kind of want to be entertained or be smarter.
- [23:09]
A
Yeah, right.
- [23:10]
B
Like because you can learn on it on. But Instagram is where it's more entertainment and less learning. But what you've done is create these carousels that are really deep in terms of learning, but very quick. Because what people don't know is to listen to somebody talk takes three times longer than to read.
- [23:25]
A
Yeah.
- [23:26]
B
So when people are on a time sensitive thing, that's why the carousels are working well. Because if your headline hooks them, they can swipe and get the information that would be on a two to four minute video. And they feel educated and they feel like you've given them something amazing and it hasn't taken up too much of their time.
- [23:40]
A
I also think now in terms of hooks like that doesn't happen right away. Right. Like it takes. We've been creating content professionally for four years and it's on top of doing it for four years. I've also taken, and I mean We've done a master class on it, we teach courses on it or flown all over the world to speak on it. Like outside of doing it for a living, I'm obsessed with it.
- [24:00]
B
This is what I want to get across to people too. And we struggle with it. When you take yourself too seriously, you don't get the engagement you like. I'll ask the listeners, why do you think a lot of the thumbnails you see have the host captured giving expression that seems over the top? Like, why do you think that is? Is it because. It's because we've evolved over millennia to respond to human facial expressions. The human face is the most powerful thing to another human face. So if you put an expression like what the F's going on, the reptile brain stops. Because we've evolved to learn that if somebody in our tribe has a face like that, there's something important going on. Right. And I don't think enough people look at things from an understanding perspective of how you make somebody stop the scroll.
- [24:44]
A
Yes. But you're jumping around a lot. That's YouTube. Right? Because Instagram doesn't work in terms of thumbnails in the same way. Like when you're served a video, the video is playing. So thumbnails on YouTube are very expressionist, which is also what you see actually a lot in Japan, which is really fascinating.
- [25:00]
B
But that's getting the elephant to stop so that then the rational brain can then consume the content. Yeah, you see what I mean? Like, that's where that's from.
- [25:08]
A
So the next step is that Cartier launched its new design, new love bracelet. It's called the unlimited design. The first time they've redone the love design in 56 years. When they launched it in the 60s, Elizabeth Taylor made it famous and then sadly, to give credit, it was Kylie Jenner that brought it back.
- [25:27]
B
How did this come about?
- [25:28]
A
It's really interesting because Cartier has become really ubiquitous with like upper middle class and let's call it like the luxury consumer. And the love bracelet became big and then everybody was starting to buy the love bracelet. Then it got to the point where Cartier is no longer verifying whether or not a Cartier bracelet is a real bracelet. Because with gold and diamonds you can create a mold and rip it off. And it was interesting. So they basically have recome out with this new version of it and it's.
- [26:03]
B
Flexible so it's harder to replicate.
- [26:05]
A
Harder to replicate. But it also, it's interesting because it's like Cartier lost the Cartier customer So the love bracelet is an entry point. Right. It initially was seven grand. It's right now just above eight, which is definitely expensive, but it's not. Cartier became famous for being a custom jeweler to the royal family until, like, the Vanderbilts, like the huge Hughes, like the Rothschilds, like the big families. So this kind of ready to wear jewelry is more of that entryway price point that's designed to set people up to get their engagement ring and then to later get custom jewelry is kind of the idea. And this new bracelet that they've launched is at a $9,400 price point. So it's higher than the original love bracelet. But I think it's because the Cartier customer is no longer buying that entryway Cartier price point. Like, think about it. Like, I actually put my Cartier back on today for the segment because we got the, you know, our matching sets here, which is definitely annoying out loud. But the point is, like, we're not. We're not buying more. You know what I mean? Like, we have.
- [27:10]
B
You already have enough. Like, you have people who have double car. You know, like, this is just a natural progression of business. You saturate the market. Now you see people who have three love bracelets on. Everybody's trying to status more. And that. That's the whole rule of happiness is happiness is really comparison.
- [27:25]
A
Yeah.
- [27:25]
B
So you get your one bracelet, you love it. Then when you see other people have it now, you feel like somebody else. People want to feel better than other people.
- [27:32]
A
A hundred percent. In addition to that, though, when exactly what you just said, like that Cartier stack, people have had those three bracelets for seven years. You're not buying more from Cartier when.
- [27:42]
B
You have not the same thing, three stocks. So it's brilliant. It's brilliant marketing. Create another version of it. So you can now show I just wasted another $9,400 on a bracelet. I don't know, need to show that I'm cool.
- [27:54]
A
Well, the thing that's really fascinating is that this Hero product represents 35% of their sales. And it is the. It is like 90% of customers enter into the Cartier brand through the love line. And then the second is, like, the Justin Clue line. So those two lines represent almost 100% of how customers enter into the Cartier universe, which is no different than the Van Cleef customer who. It's like high 80% enters through the Alhambra collection, that, like, iconic motif that they have. And that's their, like, gateway. So gateway drug into becoming A brand customer.
- [28:32]
B
What I think is relevant is a classic piece that became classic was because at the time the love bracelet was made, it was probably a wonderful development in jewelry. Like, they had amazing jewelers. Usually you pay premium because you have the best people doing what they're doing. Right. But when you have a classic piece and now technology grows over 50 years, it's incredibly easy to replicate that piece. Right. So now it doesn't hold the scarcity anymore. So I think these luxury brands that want to, rather than just prostitute their logo on something cheap, they have to constantly be innovating to show why they're the best and why they're actually worth the money. And maybe this bracelet that's flexible has some ingenuity there in terms of jewelry making. I don't know. But that's what I would push it on is it's incredibly difficult to make this right, not just repackage something in another. In another wrapping and say, drop another 10 grand on it. Like, you have to focus on being the best because your product is the best.
- [29:29]
A
Well, it's also interesting, too, that they didn't feel the need to redo the love BRACELET until now, 56 years later, when I feel like the point the bracelet has. Has kind of. It's now past its tipping point, the.
- [29:46]
B
Love bracelet, to me, and I'm. Because it locks on and it's hard to get off. It's almost kind of like relationship chastity belt.
- [29:55]
A
Totally.
- [29:55]
B
You know what I mean? It's not like a wedding ring that somebody can take off when they go out. Right. This baby is locked on, and it should be what our position is, if you have one of these things on and it's very difficult to take off, that's. That's what you're signaling is somebody has given this to me and it takes me off the market.
- [30:09]
A
It also makes it though. It. It's. It's a special piece because it requires the screwdriver. Right? It's. You're. You're locked into Cartier, and it's the love. The love on lock, you know, that's why it's called, like, the love bracelet. And I also. I agree with you. I also like it too, because it's. It's simple enough, but it signals or it signaled instantly style and a certain status. And, like, that's really what brought me into branding. Right. Growing up in a poor family, poor home, poor part of town, those things like a Cartier bracelet were like instant signalers of some of where you wanted to be positioned, where you wanted to be placed. And this new bracelet is actually more of a fashion piece. It feels more like an homage to, like, 80s bulky gold jewelry. But I. I actually really respect it for what Cartier is doing. Like, we shouldn't blame Cartier for wanting to make a buck. Like, that's right. And that's. Brands can do that. And I think that this is a str. I actually, I. I commend them because it's unique. It's unique enough that it feels different. It connects to that customer that isn't thinking about Cartier because they have enough Cartier. But it also allows people who may not have the love bracelet to come in through that piece because it's a bit more stylish than just like, a gold bangle.
- [31:24]
B
It doesn't seem like it has the screwdriver requirement.
- [31:26]
A
It doesn't.
- [31:27]
B
I would have made an even more complex tool to. To undo it just because I think that is a separate.
- [31:33]
A
I did some research on it, and actually that was one of the things that they didn't want to have because the. The bangle gets really banged up and it sucks when you have to use the screwdriver. You scratch the area that you take this. The thing off because you're kind of like, moving it.
- [31:49]
B
Yeah. Well, they can improve. Like, I wouldn't make it a flathead either. Like, it's a flathead. I'd make it like, you know, there's like, some tools you have to buy from the brand to undo. Like, I would have done something. Building in a very complex locking mechanism makes it a lot harder to. To rip off as well. I just think in jewelry, I wanted to ask you, is there a distinction in jewelry? Because in the past, whether you agree with it or not, a lot of times jewelry was a way of a partner to show the other partner that they're investing in them with an expensive piece of jewelry that then somebody would adorn themselves with to say, I have somebody who cares enough to put that on me. Or there's like, a marking territory. But more and more women who are being successful are now buying jewelry just because they love it. Right. And is Cartier speak. Which one of those audiences is Cartier speaking to with this new love bracelet? And then why call it a love bracelet?
- [32:38]
A
There's obviously people who are buying it for themselves. I. The love, to me is more of a. It's kind of that perfect entryway price point for a guy or gal to buy it for their partner pre engagement. You know, like, it's. It's exactly what you were saying, it's like you're a love unlock, you know, it's kind of something you give where it's a splurge and it means something, but it's not. But it's not engagement ring territory. And I think that's what they've done really well is it really means someone, something to gift a Cartier product. Yeah. Like a love bracelet to your partner. And it. That's why I think this is really smart, like, at that. That sub 10k price point again, like, it's. I'm not saying that it's cheap, but for people who have a good job and they're in a partnership and they're wanting to kind of split splurge on Christmas or Valentine's Day. It's not a Bentley, you know, it's not a Birkin, you know, it's within that realm of. I know it's ridiculous, but we're talking about a luxury customer. I know it's not a Bentley. Well, I don't have a Bentley. I drove a Mazda, you know, so relatable and likable. But my point is that it's within the realm of you can ask, you can, you know, can. You can slide it by a boyfriend and, you know, be hopeful that you're gonna get it. And that's really what the product had become. Like, it'. Literally, I was like, researching this for a substack article, and it was like, every mom at the PTA meetings, you know, has the Cartier bracelet. Like, it's gotten to a point where it's like, if you don't have one in certain circles, you know, like, it's not even cool anymore to have one. It's like, oh, you don't have one. It's not sitting in your jewelry box at home. And that's where I think Cartier did this as like a second round, is that, like, all of those customers aren't buying Cartier anymore because they have it.
- [34:26]
B
Why doesn't Cartier do kind of what Hermes and Ferrari does?
- [34:30]
A
They can't.
- [34:31]
B
In terms of.
- [34:31]
A
They can't because the problem is that gold and diamonds is golden. Diamonds.
- [34:36]
B
Yeah. But the bags, the Hermes bags can be ripped off.
- [34:39]
A
No, not in the same way. Because the. The. Basically the Hermes has built an entire infrastructure, so there's like, different ateliers, like the way that you get the order and the placement, like the way that they've. They've developed the tracking mechanism and all of the different hardware pieces, like where they order each thing from. There's More going on with that like a Ferrari where they can control the supply better than golden diamonds. Like when you take off like the small, the, the small like love ring. Right. That's like a tiny thin band. All you can put in it is like a number. Right. Like you can't track all the different pieces in the same way. So that's where. That's where the jewelry companies, they can only ride on brand and why. And there's a lot of industries that can learn from this. Like especially if you're like in a SaaS or technology standpoint and you're trying to upgrade your clients to more becomes complicated because you are limited within the realm of what makes sense for your industry. So you can't look at everything in luxury and be like why can't they be the same? Unless until we get into like RFID chips or like blockchain.
- [35:43]
B
That's where I would be moving.
- [35:45]
A
Yeah. Which is interesting.
- [35:46]
B
They need to be investing more in tech if they're going to keep this premium position. But maybe we'll move on to a tale of two plastic surgeons.
- [35:53]
A
Let's talk about that. So really interesting article that was actually out on the puck that I gave credit to. And Rachel Stugatz did a. Did an op ed on this talking about kind of this rise and we've been seeing it so much online where the forever 35 face right now the hottest topic in beauty on the Internet is facelifts. People younger and younger are getting them are looking into it because the technology is so good. These stars are coming out with these facelifts and they legit look like they've turned back the clock 30 years. And the breakout facelift this year was Kris Jenner and The doctor was Dr. Adam Levine. And it poses a really interesting conversation for the service providers that listen to us because her plastic surgeon wanted zero publicity. Doesn't have socials, like doesn't have a website. Doesn't didn't. Had created an agreement with Kris Jenner to not be discussed for who had done the facelift. And Kris Jenner decided to come out and talk about it because another doctor that didn't get it was getting all of the credit. There was like this viral video that went out and basically this other doctor was getting the credit. And Kris Jenner didn't want on the record a surgeon that it. That it wasn't to be getting the credit. So she called the office, called the office, called the office and he finally agreed.
- [37:11]
B
And do we know how much that facelift was?
- [37:13]
A
$300,000.
- [37:15]
B
USD for a day surgery.
- [37:17]
A
Yeah. And it's now gone up to 500,000 USD. And the cost of the consult is $5,000. Non refundable, non refundable and non applicable to the service. You move forward. He also only takes referral only clients.
- [37:36]
B
So.
- [37:38]
A
He'S being tied to like a crocodile Birkin. You know, it's impossible to get if you have one, you know, you're the who's who. So it becomes a brand in and of itself. If you have a Dr. Levine facelift. And I wanted to talk about that as kind of two strategies. So that's the first strategy and the second strategy is Dr. Andrew Timberlake. There's basically like five to 10 plastic surgeons who are predominantly mentioning in New York and Beverly Hills that are doing like all of the facelifts. And it's basically these two strategies. So Dr. Andrew Timberlake's the other strategy where like everything is posted online. You know, everyone that goes to him, he does all the before and afters. And he's younger, he just graduated med school from 2018 and his price point for a facelift is $100,000. So he's also kind of seen as like an anchoring perspective that like discount option at 100k instead of 500k. But there's two very different strategies and both are very successful and both are charging a big ticket. And I wanted to talk about both strategies because we have a lot of clinicians and service providers that listen to this podcast as well.
- [38:43]
B
That's just where you need like good insights into the nature of your business. Because survivorship bias can, can skew how you analyze something. So the guy who doesn't want to have any publicity, there may be like a whole other 10 years of storyline behind there that we don't really understand. So I always warn people, don't just copy this strategy of somebody who's successful. Cause there could have been 5,000 people trying the same thing and one got lucky, got the right referral, and then it worked. But it's not gonna work for you unless you get the same kind of stroke of luck. What we know from the second strategy is that it does work. If you are posting your content and doing things properly, you will grow in business. The kind of fake scarcity, I don't know if it's. It could even be fake scarcity. Like, I've worked with companies where we've, we've tried to create a campaign where we make it look like we don't want anybody to know, but we're actually creating A campaign to try to make people feel like we don't want them to know, when really we do. Like, I don't know if that could be part of a campaign. Have you heard of the Streisand effect?
- [39:42]
A
You're. No, I haven't.
- [39:43]
B
Streisand effects, it's not perfectly applicable, but Barbara Streisand made it very clear that she didn't want anybody to know her personal life. And she went on, and then what happened is that everybody knew her personal life because she told people, I don't want you to know. And then her house became the most viewed house because she, she publicly went out there and said, I don't want you to know where I live. Now, I don't know if that was. Probably wasn't intentional, but you could use that strategically in marketing. If you, if you position something like that, it makes people more interested in knowing who did it, if you're trying to restrict who did it.
- [40:12]
A
Interesting. I wanted to take a different approach because the thing that I liked about this article is that it reinforced, like, we meet a lot of people that are very good, but aren't executing that, like, scarcity and true luxury brand in a way that fits that mold or that model. And the reason why I did like it is, of course there's always going to be survivor bias, but it does represent that there are two different angles for you to take, but you have to commit to them, and you have to commit to them in an authentic way. And that's what I wanted to also breakdown as well. Like there is in the industry of plastic surgery, it does exist that people, like, are really secretive about that and do want to, like, through a referral and through a gossiping standpoint, talk about who's who and, you know, who's getting what done.
- [41:02]
B
People love secrets.
- [41:03]
A
They love secrets. And because even with Kris Jenner, he didn't even sell out with Kris Jenner, he was like, no, I don't want you to talk about. And even Kris Jenner, like, sought him out because he's seen as the best, to me, is a strategy. I think it's a lot of the. A lot of people out there and they think they're the best, but they don't have the confidence in order to execute that. So they're not even. They're not even focusing intentionally with that strategy. And I just like that there was two directions for us to discuss because people aren't intentional about their brand. And from everything that I can learn and read about Dr. Levine, he's very intentional about this. And he's not. He's now driving demand through price.
- [41:43]
B
Yeah, Let me jump in, because this is, you know, just on a scaling case study I did. When it comes to market, there are two approaches. Right. And this person is very successful. But as a startup, people feel obligated that they have to spend money on marketing. Yeah, Right. But if they take their efforts, their resources, and they just absolutely focus on making the best product possible with a little bit of patience, the word of mouth can also scale and be exponential. And so it sounds like what this guy did is he just absolutely focused on having the best product. Period. Period. Like, best experience, best product. And so you don't have to feel obligated. I think most people feel obligated to spend money on marketing and they're just wasting it anyhow because it's not effective. It's not tied to a strategy. That person focused on making the best, and they became the best. Other people are now the second example. They're probably. That guy's using his socials. Well, but it took a different approach.
- [42:37]
A
Well, he did take a different approach, and that's the. But also, that's a. That's a great approach as well. But what you can learn from all 10 of these, and I highly recommend looking at that full article by Rachel Stugatz, what you can learn from all 10 of those names is that they all have a very clear brand. Like, there's no mistake that they're at the top. And I think that's what most business providers, where they make the mistake is they're not owning their own brand. There's a lack of confidence. There's a lack of, like, this isn't my area of expertise. I'm just gonna keep hiring people and hope that they can figure it out. And that lack of, like, gripping it and figuring out, what does your customer care about? What do you, like, what makes sense for you to showcase that? The lack of that direction allows for you to do stupid shit like dancing on the Internet, posting about what's in your purse. Like, there's a place for that. Definitely. Like, it works. But if that's not what your brand is and what you're trying to solve, what your customer cares about, you're. You're. You're burning that time on the Internet to go back to, like, the different of, like, why people are going on the platform and for what.
- [43:41]
B
Yeah, I wonder, like, thinking about, like, Malcolm Gladwell as a tipping point. Like, when you focus on making the best product possible, when does it get to the point that people are talking about it. Like in the old world, it was kind of easier to figure out in the analog world, but in the digital world, you know, nobody know. You never know when you're going to get it. You just have to be doing the right things exceptionally well and be patient enough that it will eventually hit if you're focusing on experience of the top product and being intelligent. But if you were to interview the first plastic surgeon, I wonder when it hit, like when it was enough that people knew it was him.
- [44:13]
A
The bigger argument though, for exactly what you're talking about is brands often focus on the cost of a dollar for marketing versus the cost of a dollar for brand, right? And when you're investing in your brand and getting all of those pieces in place, like what is that worth to be seen in 20 to 25 years for being the best in your industry, Right. And you need to be making sunk investments that you're not gonna, like, you're not gonna be able to reap the rewards in the next quarter, you know, or even in the next 12 months. Like you're, you're setting things up to do things for the next like five years. We had a really interesting meeting with this really big architectural firm that's built some like insane places. And I'm like, you guys are in a complicated spot because you need to like at a literal like cinematographer level, like shoot your properties and the journey and the story. And look, it's going to be really expensive and it's not going to be after the first one that you're going to like. You're going to see those returns is that after you see the new standard, your standard operating procedure is to invest 5 to $15,000 in documenting every single one of these multi million dollar projects. Once that becomes your standard, your perception of you in the market changes and it's having that mindset shift. So when we talk about any of these doctors, it's what they invested in, what they decided to do 15, 20 or even 10 years ago, that we can have the discussion about them now. And we think, and we think too short term, we don't think in terms of brand.
- [45:41]
B
It's well said. I think brand early actually is a better investment than marketing early. But people need cash flow.
- [45:46]
A
I know.
- [45:47]
B
So they're like, let me just buy Google Ad spend and I'm going to get business. But it's, it's spent, it's burnt. You got to spend, spend it again. Whereas brand, once invested, keeps paying.
- [45:55]
A
Yeah, agree, totally. All right. So let's talk about Jimmy Fallon. So Jimmy Fallon launches this TV show called On Brand. He's got Bosma St. John as the, like, host of it. And the idea is effectively he's started a branding agency and he's got a slew of huge clients, you know, the regular suspect, the Procter and Gambles, et cetera, like the big companies. And they have this group of people that have applied to be on the show and this, like, team of experts that audit all of the different parts of their marketing campaign. And the idea is that they're all going to pitch their creative campaign and concepts to the brand and the brand is going to pick one of them and is basically going to run with it.
- [46:37]
B
Yeah, it's a concept we came up with years ago. And then funnily enough, you know, they reached out to you to see if you're interested and, you know, they didn't move forward with some of that. But the concept is interesting. Right, But I just don't know the criteria. When I looked at that show, I can tell why it's not doing well because it's not saying anything interesting. Everybody seems somewhat similar. It seems like a talk show host reality show. Like, it's not. It's not deep, it's not. It's not dangerous.
- [47:03]
A
I just don't think they took the right approach. I don't think it's cool to see, like random Americans pitch creative concepts. I think that they should be getting top creatives. Fighting should be like football teams, you.
- [47:17]
B
Know what I mean? Like. Like competition between the top.
- [47:20]
A
Yeah. Not just randomly, Oren, you know, Brook Yocum Brand, Camille Moore, like us all coming up with the concepts and fighting to see who has the best creative insight.
- [47:31]
B
They try to make it kind of like Survivor by just picking kind of local people who dabbled in that area who are kind of in it, and then they fit the right category and then they think that's going to be interesting. But there's no romance like Love Island. There's no danger like Survivor. So what's the angle? There's no competition like Desperate Housewives, so the show doesn't have the ingredients that make people stay well.
- [47:51]
A
It also underscores the level of intellect that's required to create a great campaign. And I think that that is. It's funny because on one hand it's like almost like the level of thinking that like Tide is getting is. Is, you know, almost at the regular person level, but it really actually takes away from like the. The actual serious skill that's Required. Like, for the longest time, marketing advertising was deeply respected because you were literally manipulating the masses. Right? Like you were making people buy Lucky Strikes over Marlborough. Like, to persuade an entire community to go and buy a brand and see that as a trusted brand was high stakes and it had to be in mind.
- [48:33]
B
Highest percentile.
- [48:34]
A
Yes.
- [48:35]
B
Intelligence. And what marketing is. Looks like now is, hey, just be yourself, be artistic, work from home on zoom, do whatever and you can just come up with great ideas that make millions. It's not how it is.
- [48:45]
A
Well, even one of the judges. No shade. Social media managers are so important. But like, the social media manager is judging the quality of the caliber of the campaign. Like, you have to also understand, like, what level of skills are required in the room at what level. So for example, a senior graphic designer does logo design. A UI UX designer develops webs. Like, typically the person that's doing logo isn't also designing a website. Like, there are different skills. Both of those people who are extremely valuable at an agency level are not judging the level of ad creative for the campaign concept. Like, these are. It's like talking about who, like, flies the plane versus, like, who provides.
- [49:27]
B
You know, don't tell the flight attendants. They're not as important as the pilot. They demand equal pay. Eagle. Like, come on. They're just as important.
- [49:34]
A
They're just. Well, they're super important. They're super important.
- [49:36]
B
But they're.
- [49:37]
A
They're different roles or different skill sets. You know, like, they're different. It's probably a better way.
- [49:42]
B
Please validate them.
- [49:43]
A
A better way is probably also talking about too, you know, the person in front of the camera versus behind the camera. Like, they're different skills, they require different skill sets. So I just disappoints me.
- [49:54]
B
Well, that the show sucks, but it's Jimmy Fallon. He's not really known for his depth or his insight or any. You know what I mean? Like, he's actually not well liked. He's just. He's a clown. He jumps around on there like a clown. But it's disappointing because it takes away from the art and the intelligence required to make good campaigns and make branding. Like, you have to be. You have. The art of communication is not dying your hair blue. And, you know, like, the art of communicating to humans is very. Is very skilled. And I was listening to a book this morning talking about Sapiens, you know, Noel.
- [50:25]
A
Oh, yeah, Huawei or whatever. Yeah.
- [50:28]
B
So most successful book on anthropology ever in the history of the world. And when he first wrote it, he put a note down he goes, I don't think anybody should buy it because there's nothing new in here. But what Noel was amazing at, he's a spectacular writer. He knows how to tell stories about information that all existed. He didn't discover anything new. He just took interesting tidbits of information and told it in a beautiful story like way. That's the 1% skill that people need to kill it.
- [50:54]
A
It's Yuval Noah.
- [50:55]
B
Yuval Noah.
- [50:57]
A
Oh my God, guys, he is so bad at names. It is insanity. But it was a great book. I actually listened to that on a back of a bus in Peru.
- [51:05]
B
Yeah, but because of the way he communicated, we all have the same bits of information.
- [51:10]
A
He made a story.
- [51:11]
B
Same with Bill Bryson. Bill Bryson was an anatomy book told beautifully.
- [51:15]
A
The body, right?
- [51:16]
B
The body, yeah, yeah, right. But it was, it was an anatomy book. No research, just told. Well, that's what you're paying for.
- [51:22]
A
Research into the book. He researched.
- [51:24]
B
Well, I was just listening to them talk about it. So yeah, he researched other people's work, but he didn't, he didn't do his own.
- [51:31]
A
He's not a research scientist.
- [51:32]
B
He didn't come up with anything new. He just. And that's why the academics get really angry when these people come along and tell a story, because they have the skill to communicate to humans. And that's what you need when you're doing a brand launch. You could have the best product in the world, but you need somebody who knows how to communicate with humans and not just humans in their own tribe. Too much of marketing are people just communicating to themselves.
- [51:52]
A
Yeah. Let's move on to ChatGPT. It has its first ever brand campaign. But what's hilarious.
- [51:59]
B
Can you spell irony?
- [52:01]
A
It's not leveraging AI, which I actually, I actually think it's a wrong move. But I do think it's worth dissecting because I have. I'm of two camps. So in case you missed it, Chachi PT launched its first basically brand creative that's going all over uk, US and Ireland. And it effectively showcases a guy and a girl in their apartment. He asks her if it tastes good. She says yes. And then you basically see the ChatGPT prompt come up of like, I'm on a first date, I want to like make something delicious but not look like I'm trying too hard. Give me a recipe. And it gives the recipe and then it gives the like chatgpt therapy at the bottom and it scrolls and then it pans out, out of the apartment window in what looks like new York and the commercial is over and zero AI was used. Other than that, the development of that prompt, that's like on top of it.
- [52:54]
B
Brilliant. Disagree with you. Purely brilliant.
- [52:58]
A
I know I have, I have two camps. I know why you think it's brilliant.
- [53:00]
B
Because first order thinking is oh, it's AI, it should use AI. But it's not AI, it's AI for humans. And so if you're going to do a brand campaign, you have to show humans who are benefiting from AI. But it's one say oh you do AI, you should have. No, you have to show real humans benefiting from the product. That's what it did. But it's also getting people talking about it. But when you watch the video, you saw a guy who had an issue and it helped him, made his life better. I think it was great.
- [53:27]
A
Britney, I'm in agreement with you. I am of two camps because the creative of it just showing it's prompting people to think about using ChatGPT in their daily lives which is for the majority of people that need to like overcome the hump of like starting to get used to it. It's not at the level of like start putting your entire work mind into it. It's like just start finding moments every day that you can start turning to ChatGPT. It also allows them to start getting more paid subscribers. So it's really intelligent. I think what would have been really moving for a large segment of people that are ChatGPT aware would be to have launched with two creatives and one to have been like the fully human creative and then a second creative concept.
- [54:14]
B
That would have been AI ChatGPT's customer. An AI person or a human.
- [54:18]
A
Well, human.
- [54:19]
B
So why would you have an AI campaign if AI doesn't use ChatGPT?
- [54:23]
A
The reason is that there's a lot of not so much in our circles and the people listening to it but a lot of the kind of the. The working class. There's a. I find there's a lot of resistance to an educated working class that aren't in creative that ChatGPT isn't coming for all industries now. You're right. I guess what, what would be the angle to seeing that But I think that showcasing the power of the creative capabilities of ChatGPT. But you're not wrong. I guess I get what you're saying.
- [54:50]
B
If they're, if they're target market or developers who want to create AI avatar, you know what I mean to do stuff you could have a comparison. But that's what I Mean when you're in this world, the first people will come out, they'll get clicks saying ChatGPT doesn't use AI. They must be ridiculous. But somebody in there understood that their customer is a human and they, they must, they need to make it make sense to the customer. Whereas maybe some developers who want to make AI avatars would want to see an AI creative.
- [55:17]
A
But you're so correct in your analysis and I, and I'm too niche into like my, my level of usage for it. I just, I think that for me as someone that's paying like the highest subscription with chat GBT and paying it for like several members of our team, like we're putting a lot of Money into, into ChatGPT, I as a customer would almost expect more than just like the base level of like the, the, the ingredient standpoint. But I guess, well they're trying to.
- [55:42]
B
Probably onboard, onboard new users. Yeah, they are, they're trying to get that, that adoption thing on so they, they could have a curated campaign.
- [55:49]
A
I would just, I guess for my brain and I. Let me underscore it again guys. Philip is right. I almost want to as a business owner see additional like additional use cases where I, because I'm like addicted to it and I feel like I am still looking for like I randomly came across that platform. It's called Relume R E L U M E and it like through AI basically can like build you full blown like wireframes for visualizing a website. And I loved that because typically we exist in this ecosystem at ThirdEye Insights where Camille has this grand vision, not enough hours in the day and wants to see a website that exists in my mind. But you know, they're human and they, they, they can't extract from my mind. So using this AI program I can use some pretty prompts while I'm in a meeting or whatever and it can fully draft me this visualized wireframe that allows as a very visual person to better communicate to my team how I want something to look. I came across that randomly and I think that ChatGPT, when there's like so many hungry business owners that aren't as savvy as the two of us would be looking for more ways to leverage it to justify going to that like premium standpoint. But you're right, they're looking for new members. That was just where my brain was that to work through it.
- [57:00]
B
What I think it tells people is AI doesn't mean you can check out. You still as a founder or whoever you are need to Have a personal relationship with your clients.
- [57:12]
A
Yep.
- [57:12]
B
Right. So double down on your own content. Figure out how to stay relevant. I wanted to share. I've been diving deep into memory these days. I wanted to share in terms of, like, there's a great experiment on YouTube and we'll put it up here maybe if you guys want to watch it. But if you Google. If you Google basketball pass experiment, it's a really interesting experiment. So put it on YouTube, Google Basketball Pass experiment, stop this, watch it, and then you can come back. But it talks about change, blindness. And so when you're focused on something, you can miss a heck of a lot. And memory is very, very unreliable because of that. And we've evolved as humans that we can't perceive everything, because if we perceive everything, there's just too much data for our brain to process and we won't perceive the important things.
- [57:59]
A
Yeah, right.
- [58:00]
B
And so when, if you take a piece of paper, if this paper is everything that could be going on in a situation, you fold it in half. Like, this is then what the human brain is capable of perceiving. Capable of perceiving based on what's going on. When we look in the sunset because we can't see infrared, we can't see gravity. Right. So capable of perceiving, then, you know, we fold it in half. This is what we actually do perceive. Then fold it in half again. This is what might get our attention from what we're perceiving. This is what might be interesting. Right. And this might be what we remember from all the information, just as a visual. So when you're going on social media, like, how it's almost like there's too much information on social media. So how do you get a human to pay attention so they remember what you're saying? What's your advice?
- [58:53]
A
The hook?
- [58:54]
B
The hook. Not just the hook, because I find, like, the hook is bit simplified, but I think when we're saying hook, we're saying it's either visual audible or, you know, like, how do you get people to pay attention?
- [59:05]
A
Well, you have to reverse engineer. Like, people think that you're like, you deserve this audience, right? Like, you have 5,000 followers or you've 25,000 followers. So therefore whatever I put out, it matters. Right. It's easy, this idea of this kind of like this notion about yourself, but people don't think in terms of exactly what you did. Like, if you fold a paper that many times and it's even smaller than that when you think about that's in the real world. Now let's talk about you're. Someone's on their phone, they pick up their phone. Now it's like, how do you. You have to reverse engineer why someone should stop what they're doing and watch that video. Like, think about. Every single one of you listening to this has a very different algorithm, not only to who you are, but, like, what's going on in your life. Maybe you're thinking about getting a puppy. When you open up your Instagram Explore page, there's gonna be more King Charles Cavaliers. And maybe you're thinking about going to Cuba and photos of Cuba on top of like all of the other random shit that makes you you, right? You as a brand manager or business owner or influencer or content creator, you're trying to get every single person that you think is like, your customer to stop the scroll and to look at that piece of content. And if you don't think in terms of like, reverse engineering to get them to do that, you're just never going to win.
- [60:21]
B
You have to understand the human brain because too many posts, when you're scrolling, there's so much info on it, right? Like, and your brain can't process it all in the one second it decides to scroll past. So there has to be something that stands out there that causes the rat or the reptile brain to stop and say, there's something I should pay attention to here.
- [60:39]
A
Well, that's the biggest thing, is that people don't study content. I talk about this a lot, but, like, you can go on content, you can save it, you can go and you can go on the, your socials for like an hour a day to do, like to do some research, but you're probably not really, like, studying it. Like, studying it as if you were like going to go into an exam and get a passing grade. Like, how are they starting the video? What's happening midway through? Who enters when? Why? What can camera angles are they using? How often are they changing the camera angles? Why do I find this interesting? Why did I save this? Why do I like this? Why do I, when I go to this page, why do I like them? What does it tell me? Like, when you start asking questions and you start reversing content, that's when you actually start creating better content. And most brands don't think about in terms of customer problems. Like, what problem do you solve? And why are you the best person for the job? We're gonna. I wanna do a case study study next week on Foreplay. They're an awesome golf brand. Or for all is what they're called for.
- [61:35]
B
All I was thinking, this is a content shift.
- [61:38]
A
We're no longer PG here, everybody, but we're talking about.
- [61:42]
B
That's another area of expertise.
- [61:43]
A
I want to talk about them next week because I want to prepare a bit better. But one of the things that I really liked when I was on their page this weekend is they're actually creating swag and products that are relevant to the customer they're trying to solve. So they have this hat on their website, and it's called, like, double. Double bogeys are hot. Right? And as a newer golfer, I'm constantly getting double bogeys, and I feel like I'm killing it. But the way that the game is set up is that the par on the golf course is at what professional golfers play.
- [62:13]
B
And for that, it creates an unreasonable expectation because par is what pros hit.
- [62:18]
A
Yes. But so many girls are getting into golf, and it's about understanding your target market and the shared values. Because I want. I love golf. I think golf is cool. I'm not hardcore about golf. I go out several times per week. I want to look cute, and I want to, like. I want to praise myself for where. Where my status is at, because, shit, I've worked hard to do double bogeys on the golf course. And they're actually solving a real problem because they're speaking to their customer for where their customer is at. And, like, that's what makes our content good.
- [62:48]
B
Because they're making them cool.
- [62:49]
A
Yes.
- [62:50]
B
Because in an environment that's. Make that. That the purses.
- [62:53]
A
I golf because I want to be cool. I'm not gonna lie.
- [62:56]
B
No, it's not. You like the game.
- [62:58]
A
I like the game.
- [62:58]
B
Once you hit that ball. Well, once you hit that. Yeah. Because it's hard to hit that ball.
- [63:02]
A
It's hard to do it.
- [63:02]
B
And when you hit that ball, well.
- [63:03]
A
I got some swagger. But, like, I also. When I, you know, when I don't birdie or like, par the hole, I want to be like, she still got it. She's still cool because she showed up today. And it's not a competition.
- [63:15]
B
Well, that's. That's an expectation. It's like, people get into social media, media. Like, you take up golf, you can't just be fit. You're not gonna be great day one.
- [63:23]
A
No.
- [63:23]
B
Golf is like, it takes a long time, and you have to go up and down. Same with your content. Your content is not going to perform on some days. Other days it is. You're going to be Good at it. The one thing going back to that, to that getting attention on social. The one thing I think that's the best case study of it. Remember for a while there was those videos where somebody was stepping in of front falling or a ball was coming at somebody's space, you know, like. And then all of a sudden it would pop into the person talking. That was the best hook. Remember? I think a couple of guys we were following. But you'd see somebody about to fall off a thing and as soon as it. Or the. The motorcycle would crash, as soon as they land, it would pop up into the other person talking. It was a big distraction to get people to stop the school. Right? That was pure brain psychology. Like, in terms of getting people to stay because people watch train wrecks.
- [64:12]
A
But also though, like, it's about understanding your brand. Like, that's why the social media masterclass and the brand planner that's going to come out, so much of it is so focused on brand because, like, we can talk about what's cool that a brand is doing and like how awesome a brand is, but it's like unique to that brand. Like us today talking about the new Cartier bracelet, you know, the first time it's launched 56 years. There's, you know, there's some brands I can learn from that on this call today. There's also a lot of brands where, like, that insight is not relevant to you because it's about taking and stealing, like an artist and understanding, like, how do you adapt what's going on to your brand? So your whole point of like those videos that did well, there's a lot of brands where like, please do not listen to what Philip is saying because that really doesn't align with your brand and your approach. Remember like that, that approach too, where like people are talking and then like someone is like drawing a flower or like something is like spiraling and dropping and it does hold attention, but it's also like, is what you're saying not interesting enough that you need to also have that split screen there so that you're keeping attention longer? These are the questions you gotta ask yourself. And it's about understanding your brand. Like, you have to be obsessed with your brand.