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- [00:00]
A
Revolve is too complacent in their cool girl status that I don't think that they did enough to brand activate. Like there wasn't enough moments for me to photograph. I don't feel like I was truly invested in.
- [00:13]
B
It's not enough just to throw people there and say show up. Like you actually have to invest in the target audience to make the experience feel like it was something special.
- [00:21]
A
And what you brought up is Disney World. Literally the world of Disney World and how Walt Disney realized that you need to like touch, feel, smell, experience.
- [00:34]
B
When you think world building, think about what your client or customer is experiencing, not what your management suite thinks is world building. They have to come in and you have to do something that changes how they see themselves because of their affiliation with your brand.
- [00:48]
A
Ulta Beauty has combined with a TikTok shop integration is Ulta can bring those one time purchases in into repeatable relationships that they can build. And they're not resisting the platform. And I just. Brands like Wake the Up. Testing on the bars revealed they allegedly contain about 83%, 83% more calories and 400% more fat than advertised.
- [01:15]
B
There's a lot of claims that go out there and if the branding is good, you can get people to buy. Right. That's why you need people to actually test things to see if the claims are real. Because labels, as we've seen hundreds of times, are often very inaccurate.
- [01:27]
A
Also this week we got this breakout headline of the staged brand leak breaking this fourth wall. Going behind the scenes is really so much more attractive to the user online than just showing something as it is or like on the face of it. What a brand, what a brand, what a brand. What a mighty good brand. Say it again now. What a brand, what a brand, what a brand. What a mighty. Welcome back.
- [01:55]
B
Welcome back. Another episode coming to you from Hollywood, California.
- [01:58]
A
It's this Sunday. We're actually recording as the Oscars are happening live in Hollywood. I was behind the scenes of the Oscars get ready a few hours ago with Molly. Very cool. Being here and seeing it gives you a different perspective.
- [02:10]
B
There's something going on around the Oscars that I've been trying to pick up. Like, I can feel anxiety. I can feel like they're trying to force it to feel like it's what it was. But there's a fear around it that production is leaving the town, that movies aren't as relevant. There's controversy about whether the voters actually watch the movies. You know, has it lost its authentic authenticity? You know, and is it now just becoming a manufactured event.
- [02:36]
A
Well, I mean, dig into that a bit more. Like, you kind of rushed through some headlines. Like what? What were you reading that was interesting to what's changing about the Oscars?
- [02:42]
B
No, I wasn't reading anything. I was feeling it. Like, if you look at the trends of what's going on, production is leaving Hollywood, movie sales are down in many cases, and then there's security threats surrounding the Oscars and then controversy that the people who are voting for the Oscars aren't even watching the movies in some cases. And so it's becoming more of a performative selection rather than an artistic selection of what movies really work. But I can just feel this in the town, this anxiety around the event this week that makes me wonder if it's the end of the Oscars.
- [03:15]
A
Well, it reinforces what I learned earlier this week with being in Hollywood that really a lot of what makes the Oscar wins is the PR hype machine and how much the production heads put PR behind the movies that they think they have an Oscar run. And I think that speaks to what you're saying of, like, because there's so much media, there's so much to distract. Are the people voting even watching all of the movies, or are they watching what. Which ones have the hottest buzz?
- [03:44]
B
Yeah, I just think the way the world is going, there's more levers to try to win the awards. In the past, there was always PR around the Oscars, but it was more like, let's bring people together to watch the movies and get kind of a pure selection of what is worthy of an Oscar, whereas today it's manufacturing the Oscar through this PR machine.
- [04:03]
A
Well, it's interesting because it's also relevant to this larger theme that we constantly keep touching on and we're going to talk about today as well, is, like, how every industry, even the movie industry, even the Oscars industry, has become so inundated with distractions of how important content and headline and these hype moments are for standing out and sticking out and how kind of these companies, like a 24 that is doing such great hype for these movies are becoming so integral for that Oscar conversation because they understand organic content and virality.
- [04:44]
B
To me, it's like they're losing a little bit of that institutional power. Like, the Oscars used to go on too long. Like, famous people were beholden to the ceremony and the people who controlled it. But you can tell now that, like, they see they're lacking relevance. It's about to become. It's becoming way Less powerful, the guild, the powers behind it. And so they have to make it more relevant or they will die.
- [05:06]
A
Totally.
- [05:06]
B
But you had a. You had an amazing event this week. You went to a Revolve event. How was that?
- [05:10]
A
Interesting question. Like, on one hand, I. It was good in that Revolve can really bring out the right names. Like, it has a nice hype and like cachet around the brand that it was kind of like almost crazy weird to see, like, how many people could be in one place. My criticism of the event is that you can tell that Revolve is too complacent in their cool girl status. That I don't think that they did enough to brand activate. Like, there wasn't enough moments for me to photograph. I don't feel like I was truly invested in like, as a guest. Like there. There should have been more to make it. Like, it's like the names alone are. Is the drive, like for you to go and for you to shop and for you to post. But like, truthfully, when you go to an event like that and you're not one of these big names, like, you're not taking a photo with. With them, a flash on. So it kind of gave it like limited things to take photos of because it was a very like, dark event.
- [06:10]
B
There's an arrogance that can come in some organizations where they think, okay, all we have to do is check the box, 1, 2, 3. And people should just be happy that they're invited. And I think some of these brands are missing the point that it's not enough just to throw people there and say show up. Like, you actually have to invest in the target audience to make the experience feel like it was something special.
- [06:30]
A
But here's the flip side. Like, I've been thinking a lot about it this week for having a conversation and how I wanted, you know, this content to show up. Because on one hand I was naturally critical because when you see for how much these brands in their cat like adjacent categories do, how much they spend on these events, they really didn't. But on another hand, what I realized of what Revolve did with this event, that was smart. And I'm starting to notice other brands do it is they use a party as an excuse for the photo shoot that launches the brand. So what they did is that all of the bigger name influencers like Alexis Run etc were in the key outfits that are a part of this new, like eponymous ep. Okay. Basically as part of their new line. And what's interesting about it is that they had so Many photographers there, they had so much PR there. And the photographers, they had this entire team that was focusing on shooting like the website video, like all of the photos for the homepage, for the socials, they did all of the campaign activations with like an instant turnaround around at the party. So it justifies the investment in throwing this crazy party. Because when you look at the cost of a photo shoot, they're so expensive to do them right. Especially if you want the photo shoot to look like it's in a party environment, which is what the Revolve Los Angeles brand is. So it's so intelligent to double end it with a party that obviously is more than just the shoot, but like disproportionate from the earned media value of making the party the shoot experience. And that's the thing that I would say that brands could learn from that event is Revolve is a master of the earned media value equation. And what that is is they were basically the first to really leverage Coachella as this like investment for a brand. Like, because, because remember a brand is a lagging indicator, it's hard to show short term success, whereas marketing is, is focused on bottom of the funnel, like a quick conversion.
- [08:32]
B
So just from a lagging indicator perspective, in case like lagging indicator is where you are right now with your body is a reflection of what you did six months ago.
- [08:41]
A
Yeah.
- [08:41]
B
Right. So from a brand perspective, you don't see your brand ROI right away, you get it 12 months, 18 months down the road. So where your brand is today reflects what you did 12 months ago.
- [08:52]
A
Exactly. And the way that revolve thinks about branding is it's about amplification. What is the earned media value of what we did as like a future, as a way to future like depreciate as like an investment on the books. Right. So the idea is they spend 20, 30, 40% more on making the shoot a party, but by spending that delta of 20 or 30%, they get 200% more impact because you don't get earned
- [09:23]
B
media from a video shoot for your
- [09:25]
A
website for doing a photo shoot. And, and what you also don't get is think about how expensive it is to make an event like a photo shoot look like an event. So you might as well bake it in. And that's the thing that was a bit, that did take away slightly, I would say from the experience is when you weren't one of the talent, if you weren't one of the models, it was, you were waiting for something else. Like there was a Lot of cameras
- [09:50]
B
there and you guys were props, you know, for a photo shooter.
- [09:54]
A
And there's two ways to look at it. There's the, like this is super intelligent from a brand lens and then there's another, there's another angle of like where my brain is like look, you could have generated even more had you spent maybe double on making that party so much better. But then, but then that's where it's actually quite difficult from the ability to give criticism is. I don't know if the difference in the spend spend would have been the difference because from the outside looking in from an earned media only standpoint, they crushed it online every, like it was on every media. They had everybody there. So it's interesting to see from it from two sides because at the end of the day I'm already a supporter of Revolve. I'm already going to buy from Revolve. I expected more from that world building context but from the earned media value context they actually probably spent the perfect amount. So it's a, it's an interesting, it's an interesting way of looking at it.
- [10:51]
B
I wanted to talk about going to the store after that and hear kind of what we saw there.
- [10:55]
A
So if you don't, if you don't know the Revolve. Revolve. The Revolve. Revolve opened a store at the Grove and it's a really interesting concept. It's where kind of you can tell Revolve is building more into this world, building concepts because being a retailer is limiting for when you can own the whole world. So it was interesting because the idea had enough cachet that didn't get me to the Grove. We had to go for another client but it was the only other store that we went into and I intended to go to the Grove to look at it and I think that's why they did it. Like L A is obviously a tourist place especially for their target consumer. Like LA is so fabulous. But I was disappointed by it because again I don't think that they're doing enough. I think they're, they're overconfident in being this like cool girl status. And I don't think they realize how much disproportionately more you need to put into the in person experience because when you have hot models and a great UI UX clothing can look much better on a very skinny, fabulous body with a beautiful face than when it's just flat in a store.
- [12:00]
B
That's what I wanted to talk about because I was under impressed. I Wanted it to be spectacular. And I think it was. You know, I say this because I care, but when I look at how you or other people shop and revolve, you pull up the website, you see the clothes look spectacular.
- [12:16]
A
Yeah.
- [12:16]
B
Like on a human. And you can picture it yourself. And it allows you to. To go through the buying cycle over a day. When you come into a store, you have to kind of buy then because you hop in your Uber and you go away for two, you know, like. Right. So if you. You have to make it so that people want to buy it there. My thought to you is, why not on certain days, have some of the models or just great models come out and, like, walk around in the outfits and then go back and change so that you can see what people look like in it rather than, like, how long have mannequins been almost the same? For, like, 100 years. There really hasn't been something like a live mannequin that shows the clothes better.
- [12:53]
A
Well, you know what's crazy is that a brand that has become famous for doing this is a linen company called 100% Capri. And they do this in Bal Harbor. And it's really built this linen company to be, like, the, like, who's who brand for resort wear. It's very much. And if you know, you know, because it's like a 700, like, linen jumper, like, it's not for the average person. I think it even might be more than that. Like, the price point of the stuff is crazy. But if you have that skinny, and they only use gorgeous skinny models and they walk around Bal harbor, and it really pisses off the wives because they're also, like, paid to kind of flirt. Like, they're very flirtatious women that walk around Bal Harbor. And it totally works because it pisses off the wives, but it makes them want to be them, so they go in and, like, buy the product. So I thought it was fascinating that you naturally suggested that. But the other thing that I was critical of on the brand, because you're right, the clothing, when you see it, Even though it's 3D, it feels 2D because it feels so flat, like it's not someone wearing it. And the app experience, the website experience, is so hard to compete with because when you. When you receive the product at home, it's different than the. The desire it built through the app when you see this, like, 511 skinny, gorgeous model wearing it. And, like, you can't touch and feel it. But where I was the most critical was actually on the Tchotchkes and the beauty because I really found the shoes to be fantastic. I found the bags be found fantastic. A lot of the clothing I was like laughing because like I owned a lot of the stuff that they had pulled in it. And it's not new stuff, it's like by category. But the beauty at the back was very like TJ Maxx gimmicky to me. And I think that that's really where they need to raise the bar of. It should be the best, most coveted beauty products. It shouldn't feel like the exit through like the traveler minis on the way out. And I plan to tell it to Risa next week, but that was my thoughts on revolve. Ready to get into the. Yeah, into the show. So I think that actually brings us into the concept that. So we're actually going on Thursday to
- [15:06]
B
Nike, back to Portland.
- [15:09]
A
And it's a really big deal because it was where I had my first real marketing job was in Portland. And we were in a meeting together and it was the first time I really saw like a big agency pitch and really where I fell in love with marketing and branding. So it's really special that we're going back and we're going back for an idea.
- [15:29]
B
We're talking over 10 years ago and we were doing some marketing. But I remember saying to you, I'm like, this is why we can kill it in this industry. Because this is so much fluff words. But everybody is paying attention to this kind of snake oil sales approach to, you know, how to grow your business. And we looked at the checks that were being written for like very fluffy stuff. And we're like, we could do so much better.
- [15:52]
A
I would say that was your perspective. My perspective was I was on the edge of my she seat being like, oh my gosh, I can't believe you can get paid to do this. The company was like hosting this like effectively a discovery session. And they were guiding through talking about the brand, the target markets, like kind of very high level, but like also very loosely. The strategy, like I wouldn't say it was a strategy first meeting, but it was the first time that I, I actually saw kind of a marketing or branding like a high level discussion being ran. And I was like, wow, I can't believe this is something that people do for a living. And their anchor client was Nike. And that to me was like all I could dream about sitting in that chair was like, man, like one day I can't imagine if we could work, if I could work with Nike. So it's very special that we're being brought back to Beaverton this week, but the topic of why we're being brought back is to discuss world building. And it's. World building is what we obviously have been talking about a lot. But in this past week we've been really tough on ourselves for going to such a big brand and setting up this conversation. That to me is. Deserves a larger segment for you guys to really understand why this is such an integral concept. It's not new and I think that's where we should start. But the reason why brands like Nike are paying us a lot of money and flying us to them to talk about it is because the way to win is to get ahead of it. And the best news is that you don't have to be at the Nike level to start doing it. In fact, it's actually harder for us to have a conversation with how clunky they are in the infrastructure they have versus starting to build your world versus once. Once the world is built and is bureaucratic.
- [17:34]
B
Because it would be like, you know, house building. Right. It's hard to build a house if it's already built. Yeah, it has, it has a footprint, it has foundations, it's got limitations because of what you've done over the last 10 years. But if you think about your brand that you're going to world build your brand at the start, you can set a better foundation, pick better real estate so that it's easier to build on later.
- [17:55]
A
We had this conversation with a good friend of ours that recently launched a brand and she spent a lot of money on the brand and she partnered with kind of a B or a C list celebrity and there's a lot of like, everything that she did, she did very well. But she's at this weird point now where she's put so much work and so much stress and so much anxiety and so much money into launching the brand. And it's now kind of like crickets. Like, now what? Because it's gone out. The influencers post about it. They were at the event. And it really underscores why world building is such an integral term. Because she wasn't focused on world building before she did this expensive launch and how different that is from the conversation that we had with Sammy Neusdorf in Meadow Lane.
- [18:43]
B
Yeah, I think one way to put it, perspective wise, there's event building and then there's world building and a lot of people want things to be perfect. So it's like, okay, we're going to have an event it's here and now we're going to focus on making it perfect and you do an event and it's gone. One way to look at it, there's a military term we used to use called prepping the battlefield. So you can kind of prep the battlefield before you go into the battle by various means. But if you have a big event coming, you want to start world building before it, show the buildup, show the frustration, show the events, show the after, continue the narrative so that you're putting bricks onto your brand world as you go on rather than have a one and done event.
- [19:22]
A
You nailed it. I think that's what makes this whole idea of world building complicated is like, what is it versus what is it not? And that's the whole kind of problem is that world building is an active term, right? Like, the idea is that you're building a world. So depending on, depending on like, where your world is at changes what you can add on. And that's what makes this the kind of, the most complicated to navigate is that it's a different, it's a different version of like the veil, vagueness of brand. Because we can talk about world building through brands like Summer Fridays or Gentle Monster, how they're spending an insane amount of money on experiences and they have people like, wearing their clothes and they like, that's a version of world building. But there's another version of world building like Uber. This past week, they tapped Maura Higgins, who's like the Irish woman of the moment, and they did their first St. Patrick's Day activation, offering 17% off for those who want to Irish exit from the bar after celebrating St. Patty's Day. So they're doing this whole kind of piece of like, Irish accent and like leveraging Uber for when you're drinking on, on St. Patty's Day. And like, that's a version of world building, right? In that you're, you're, you're creating a moment that people can enter into the brand. So if you're going to St. Patty's Day, you're planning to drink, you're, you're, you're, you're going out, you're going to need an Uber. You're now creating a term that you can leverage of I'm Irish exiting with Uber. That adds to your worldview.
- [20:53]
B
Digging down into what world building is, because in marketing, everybody uses terms all the time and people are like, oh, we got a world build. Like, like, what is world building? And the way you talked about it there, think of building a world whether it's like the Lord of the Rings world. Whether it's Disney World, think of, like, how do you build a world? What they did there is if people start using a language they weren't before, you're now creating kind of a language around a brand. Right? Like, so that's what I think a lot of our clients want to know is what is world building? Is it just more cowbell to what we're already doing? Like, bigger posters, like, more lights, like, how do you create a world?
- [21:28]
A
I almost want to work backwards because when we were working through this for the presentation we're going to give on Thursday, we were trying to like, talk about, like, who are the ultimate world builders. And what you brought up is Disney World, literally the world of Disney. And how Walt Disney realized that you need to like, touch, feel, smell, experience, you need to like, depart and go somewhere to enter into this other world. And if not for the Disney World concepts of these theme parks, I don't know if the movies would have been what they are today. And so to go back to your question, when we went into the Nike store at the Grove, what I can tell you is that just selling clothing is not world building. And when you talk about a Disney World, like, that's at an extreme, at extreme length. But the point is, is that wherever you're at, you need to start creating a place and a space that people can join into. And as that continues to do better and as to make more money, your approach to world building also has to expand. So when we did the video on Bulgari versus Bulgari, that's a version of world building. We're bringing the people who are a part of our world that show up every week. That was a true struggle. I, I still, on most days, cannot pronounce that name.
- [22:53]
B
But everybody we see is talking about
- [22:55]
A
the name, that name, because we brought them into our world. That's not what Gentle Monster is doing, but what it is doing is it's giving you a sliver into my world. And it's, it's changing and adding to yours. And that's the mentality that you need to be thinking in, is that no matter what your budget is, you have to stop thinking linearly and short term. And you have to start thinking, I am becoming a media house. I am becoming a brand that requires this, this push and pull of, of a digital relationship with an in person experience. And you need to have both. Because at the end of the day, when your brand gets to a point where it needs that proof that it's legit that there's a tribe. You need to have people that are prepared to show up so that when you and I are prepared to do our event, which we're hope planning to do in the early fall, we have to be able to have people that are so compelled to want to come and be there to listen what we have to say like that think our guests are going to be good without that component.
- [23:59]
B
And the event, the business of brand event we're going to do is not just going to be a conference where like you get the same handouts everybody else does. There has to be something about it that's multidimensional and that's, that's what I think people need to understand is when you think world building, think about what your client or customer is experiencing, not what your management suite thinks is world building. They have to come in and you have to do something that changes how they see themselves because of their affiliation with your brand. That's world building. I'm not wearing it just because I like the logo. I'm wearing it because when I wear this, I feel like I'm part of a world that I can identify with. And that's why, like, when you go to stores, there has to be some sort of. It's not just an experience, it has to be some sort of participation. And if people want to take a picture in your world, in your store, you know, that's what you want to create. They don't want to take it because it's a celebrity. They want to take it because it makes them feel wonderful to be part of your brand world.
- [24:52]
A
The analogy that I'm using as a way to kind of paint the picture is the real indicator of if you really have a legitimate brand, which is really now becoming the term of like a legitimate world. Like, that's the thing that's interesting is that the bar to having a brand is now so low with like upwork graphic designers and like squarespace template websites and, you know, canva graphics on Instagram. That the real indicator of brand status or like a true brand versus a business that's nice looking visually is whether or not people will show up for it. And that's why there's this like, there's this almost equation to like brand plus demand equals world. And you need to be building up the demand. That's why the Sammy Neusdorf story and this whole idea of building in public is so powerful compared to our friend that just launched is that he launched and had lineups for weeks. He built the world before he actually had the brand. And that's when, when you've got lineups around the corner, that truly shows investors, other customers, people like it. We're gonna have a lot of people that listen to that episode just because of that, that world he built. And that's what people are missing. It's like they think they have to have something that's legit for people to care. Like I was recently consulting with a big activewear brand and they're like, we can't justify doing a pop up until every Single video has 500,000 views on it. And I'm like, how stupid that is. When you're a top selling, one of the hottest activewear brands, what you need to be doing is creating online experiences that show all the other girls that you're legit the coolest.
- [26:39]
B
Just let me jump in there because I think it's a key point for founders and CEOs. This is a type of thinking that you don't need to blame people for, but it's what you have to insulate yourself against. Because there are kind of a managerial class who have assumptions based on what they did at their other place, based on what other people say. And so they say ridiculous things like that we can't do it until we all have X. As opposed to understanding the dynamic, you know, what works in a dynamic business environment. Like you have to do the things that make a, make a difference.
- [27:08]
A
And that's where like kind of the next part of this is like if you're starting out or if you lack budget, how do you world build? And it's through seeing yourself as you have to become a media house. Every single brand has to become a media first brand because that's the best way to start building the world. And I'll explain why. There's been so many examples of this. Whether it's like Bissell, they, you know, they hired this like this group of teenagers or like young 20s and they basically redid this, this show on socials like Pimp My Ride, where they like fully clean out these disgusting cars using like Bissell products. And they didn't post it on the Bissell account. And it went completely viral. And it was funded by Bissell. It was basically a Bissell ad. Everything they used was Bissell. But it was, it felt an experience like organic content. So people were engaging with the brand in a way that felt super organic. But I was listening to the, the YouTube show that I'm actually gonna be on in a few weeks called Anatomy of a Dream. And the guest on it was Grace Andrews, who was the brand leader for Diary of a CEO. And she starts talking about this Vogue cover for a Millie Bobby Brown. And inst. The host of the show was like, oh my gosh, you mean the intern. The intern series of Millie Bobby Brown. And the point of what, what I realized and what I took away is nothing. Without the media amplification becomes a moment. Like the reason why we talked about the Kendall Jenner fanatics, the ad about the curse with the K is because they had billboards but they created so much organic content around it that made the campaign of the billboards way more powerful. And to go back to our friend that just launched, she didn't do all the content around the content to make the event amplified. And that's what brands are missing, is that they're not thinking in terms of media because without the additional organic media around the, like the launch or whatever you're doing, this is not interesting to anybody.
- [29:09]
B
The traditional is kind of two dimensional. Check the boxes, do this. Everybody says, look at this, we've done a successful X. Right. You've got to think four dimensional. You have to think guerrilla marketing techniques, controversy and then it all has to be synchronized to launch at the right times with your brand. But since we're on world building, can I. Do you mind if I talk about my world building event this week?
- [29:32]
A
Yeah.
- [29:32]
B
Right. Because I find a lot of, a lot of male founders for some reason aren't leaning into the marketing and world building with the same enthusiasm that some female founders are. And one person who I think has nailed the world building is Elon, whether you like him or not.
- [29:49]
A
Oh yeah.
- [29:50]
B
We went to the Tesla Diner in LA this week and I can tell you it was a masterpiece, an absolute masterpiece in world building. I don't know how I didn't know it existed before, but you know, you were there. You're agreeing with me on this or.
- [30:04]
A
Totally.
- [30:05]
B
Yeah. Like the experience, it's the largest charging destination urban one in the world. But they took this amazing piece of real estate, they invested, so they did everything well. And they have two walls. So it's like a drive in, in the urban center where people will bring food to your car, but the actual diner is like Jetsons, 1950s sci fi and it's showcasing the Optimus robot. Everything is just so high end, modern and tech forward that it immediately made me feel like I'd love to come and work here every day or hang out there.
- [30:37]
A
Two things that's interesting. So what Philip didn't explain super clearly is that in the charging, like in the charge park they have two of the biggest drive in screens you've ever seen. So that once you, once your charge park is in, you can like the, it goes right through the stereo system in the car and you can like watch it as a drive in movie, which is so cool. But also when you put in the address like to navigate to there and an actual emoji pops up that's a burger. And you can pre order your food and you can see the whole menu for when you get to the diner, which is so cool. And then on top of that, the diner is all themed. It's and everything to like the way you receive the food. It comes in like cybertruck like burger boxes. And it's, they've, they've got the high end swag that like Philip was dying to have. I'm like, no, you don't need a second. My mom bought them for Christmas. A fake, fake cybertruck. So I'm like, you don't need a second fake cybertruck when you have a real fiber. Cybertruck, yes. For the desk, I'll use the cybertruck trinkets. I'm like, you bought one parked outside a real one. Why do we need trinkets?
- [31:42]
B
But the floating cybertruck is pretty cool.
- [31:44]
A
He loved it. I mean but he loved the swag. But to your point, the reason why you didn't hear about it is because they didn't amplify through additional content. And that's the piece that I'm trying to break down is like even this week, l' Oreal Paris joined forces with the Devil Wears Prada too on a new ad that debuts like it's going to be going on Oscar night tonight. And it's Kendall Jenner mistaken as a candidate for Miranda's next assistant on the Devil Wears Prada too. Because the movie is coming out. They have like a Prada. They have a fake Devil Wears Prada like popcorn purse that has like charms on it that you can like. They're doing all of this content around the thing to drive this hype and awareness to world build. And that's what makes it complicated. As I on one hand world building is the diner. Like how much money they invested in giving a Tesla experience for Tesla people is so worth it because it creates brand loyalty, loyalty loyalists. Loyalists. But on a second note is when you invest so much in that experience and you don't become a media house around the thing, how much is wasted because you need Both. And that's what people are missing is like to World build is. Is such a. You have to think about how to amplify that world. Like when you think about it, there is Bermuda, but then there's also the tourism board of Bermuda. That's. That has done a ton of advertising to get people to the world of Bermuda. So you need to kind of think about that in terms of your brand. Like you're giving someone a passport to come in. You have to make them want to pull out their phones to talk. It's world building is to give an experience that is so special that someone feels like they have to share it to other people.
- [33:28]
B
That's what I was going to say. World building is where when somebody shares it and you align with that person, you feel like you've gotten something from their experience in the world.
- [33:37]
A
Exactly. But then how do you amplify that? And that's the piece that is so important that we can't move past because we had a huge meeting with a one of the biggest club chains in the world and we're trying to make them cool again. And one of the things that we have as an idea is to kind of lean into the Gentle Monster experience, right? Like how they just do these of kind crazy activations and right away it's like, oh my God, those machines, they break and then it costs so much money to fix. And I'm like, here's what you don't get. Gentle Monster has built a world because they don't have to necessarily create content around the content because anyone that goes there is pulling out their phone and shooting it. So either you have to spend disproportionately what your competitors will not so that people, they leave their home, they go out of their way, they get out of their sweatpants to go and shoot your place, or you have to create content around it that drives eyeballs like we are in an attention economy. And that's why world building is. The word is you need to create a world that makes people leave their damn couch, stop looking at dog videos of cavaliers and to engage in your brand. Because the reason why World building is powerful is it makes me your walking billboard. Because my identity is tied to your brand. When you give me a world to buy into. It's why Summer Fridays is literally killing it. Because 11 year olds want to wear a sweater that has their name plastered against the front and they fucking smell lip gloss.
- [35:03]
B
And just to go back to the point though, for the founders and CEOs, it's why you have to be very careful. That's why this company hired us to come in. Because when we interviewed the senior advisors, they're like, oh, they're too expensive to have those things. They break. And I'm like, I understand the thinking, but you're actually undermining. That's why the leader has to have the vision to do things that ordinary people or experts don't do. Right? Yeah. It's expensive and they break. So in the military, when we're doing thinking, we always say, so what? Whenever you hear a factor, you go, so what? Well, if it's very expensive and hard to do, so what? It's worth doing it right. Right. Just because somebody else did it wrong, it's worth doing it right because nobody else will do it. Because they have the same assumption.
- [35:44]
A
I know. No, it's why I keep telling everyone I meet, all of you, all of you, stop what you're doing and start creating damn content. I was talking to this top interior designer today when I was behind the scenes at the Oscar Glam Get Ready. And they're like, like, yeah, you know it's expensive and you know it's not convenient. And I'm like, that's what everybody else says in your space. So be the person that just spends the money. Don't buy another Chanel bag. Don't buy another Chanel jacket. Like, I know that's not the problem of the average person, but when I'm sitting here and I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm honestly sick of it. Like, I legit. I'm just saying it out loud. I'm like, okay, so you're head to toe in Chanel right now, and you're telling me that you can't justify hiring a videographer that's 24 years old and fresh out of school. Okay.
- [36:25]
B
You know, it reminds me of when I used to kind of, like, life coach some people on getting healthy. Like, the answer is simple.
- [36:31]
A
Yeah.
- [36:31]
B
Work out more, eat less.
- [36:33]
A
Yeah.
- [36:33]
B
And they're like, oh, I can't.
- [36:34]
A
You know.
- [36:35]
B
You know, it's too much. I'm so busy. But the people who do look amazing. The people. And it. But it takes 12 months to get, like, a great.
- [36:43]
A
No, it's like, literally, like, people like how you do this. I'm like, it's simple. I don't watch Real Housewives after work.
- [36:47]
B
Yeah.
- [36:48]
A
You know, like, I just.
- [36:49]
B
It takes 12 months, but start doing it today.
- [36:51]
A
I know.
- [36:51]
B
And be successful.
- [36:52]
A
Let's move on to the next headline. So really interesting headline. Ulta Beauty has combined with a TikTok Shop integration and this is actually huge news. So Ulta Beauty CEO Casey Steelman has made the leap in a TikTok Shop. Really? The only other major retailer is QVC on the platform, which is crazy when you read the numbers. So many brands that are carried by Ulta are already super successful in TikTok Shop, including Medicube, that has made more than 90 million on TikTok Shop last year and Tarte, that's made over 80 million respectively on TikTok last year. TikTok Shop. But the reason why this is brilliant is because there's so much. This is what drives me nuts. Let me just get through a few stats here. So many of these mid tier premium retailers could just be making so stupid money on TikTok shop but nobody wants to be the first to do it. And when I read you the numbers, listen to this. TikTok shops US beauty business for skincare skin care nearly generated $600 million in 2025, up 126% year over year. Makeup reached 562 million in 2025 and fragrance made $400 million on TikTok shop.
- [38:16]
B
So listen to your managers and focus on department stores.
- [38:19]
A
Sephora is, has been under the radar, shunning, I don't want to say punishing shunning brands for moving into the TikTok Shop direction because it completely collapses the funnel. So brands that can be sold in Sephora can do TikTok Shop and are doing TikTok Shop, but they're not incentivized to move revenues away from TikTok shop, especially if you're not one of the huge mega retailers. And what drives me crazy about this is what Ulta is doing is Ulta realizes that there's enough to go around. There's an abundance here because a lot of what happens on TikTok shop is impulsive one time purchases. You're, you're late night, you're scrolling, you see a chick talking about this crazy transformation. She's cute, she's in her car and in one button you can click to buy. It's on sale, it's in a bundle and shipped to your home in six days. It focuses on that rat brain impulsiveness. What Ulta can do is Ulta can bring those one time purchases into repeatable relationships that they can build and they're not resisting the platform. And I just. Brands like wake the fuck up.
- [39:26]
B
Let me reveal a secret sauce. You may or may or may not get mad at me because I'M always giving it away. But if you're doing a TikTok shop alive, for some reason, I find people want to do it in the morning. And. But willpower is, is a fixed resource every day for people, right?
- [39:42]
A
Yeah.
- [39:42]
B
So at the end of the day, people have much lower willpower when they see something impulsive.
- [39:46]
A
Yeah.
- [39:47]
B
So that's why even doing one really late at night, when people are up and doing it like, and they're trying to sleep and they're annoyed, they're very susceptible to buying at that point in the morning when you're fresh, you've got your priorities, you're not going to be there. So try different times with your TikTok shop because you can get really good results later in the day.
- [40:03]
A
But like, also, it's not quite like that. It's. It's like it's a whole infrastructure investment. It's like when the algorithm feeds the content, like, it's not like alive. It's not turning it on or turning it off. But the thing that, that drives me absolutely bonkers about this because we talk to a lot of brands, everybody is waiting for somebody else to do it. And how stupid is that? How stupid is that when we have technology that's being built to change how people buy and brands are waiting for somebody else to be successful so that they, like everybody else, will flood the market and the algorithm will change.
- [40:42]
B
But the reason why that is, is the executive management class is risk adverse to their own career. So that's why they won't do anything bold, because their incent, their goal is not to get fired. And so if a mistake happens and it hasn't been proven, they're worried about getting fired rather than giving the most to the company, which is why the founders have to push the, push the limit.
- [41:02]
A
And you know what? I, why I want to celebrate Ulta first. I feel like Ulta is like the Nikki Hilton to the Paris Hilton, you know, like still a cute sister, just like, not as famous, but like a very close second. And what I respect about what Ulta has done is that they reported so this past week, ulta Beauty reported $12.4 billion in net sales for 2025, up 9.7% year over year, driven by more than 5% comparable store growth. And what I like about what Ulta is doing is they're realized like Sephora, you can tell, wants to just make more money into their, like, retail footprint because it would make sense for Sephora and how big they are and how much more advanced they are from like the tech space and everything they've done to have leaned into this faster, a thousand percent. It shows you that like 12.4 billion is enough to invest in the relationship of your brand moving forward. And, and I really must say I am way more inclined. Like, if I see a hair mask that somebody is using on Instagram and TikTok and I impulsively buy it, I will go and buy it like that one off time. But when I need to replace it, I'll probably make a list with some other products that I want to buy and you'll get a larger total, like purchase from me. Looking past that second and third order, thinking of investing in that customer relationship over time, even driving people into the store to buy that product, because that's where you can go and get. It's just where you have to go when you're mix omnichannel, when you have a digital presence, you have an app, you have retail. Like, you have to be expanding into these new verticals.
- [42:35]
B
All right, let's move on.
- [42:36]
A
Okay, move on. So next is David's Protein Bar. This is interesting. This is kind of more like, what would you do? So I'll give you the headline.
- [42:45]
B
You gotta eat a little crow here too, because we were very pro David's a while ago.
- [42:49]
A
Well, here's the problem. They've got fantastic branding, and it's sad that that's often enough to make you really fixate on a product. So here's the headline. We got some bad news. According to a class action lawsuit filed earlier this year, the numbers on the cult favorite David's Bar nutrition labels might be too good to be true. So basically what's happening is that testing on the bars revealed they allegedly contain about 83%, 83% more calories and 400% more fat than advertised.
- [43:21]
B
So these are allegations in a claim not yet proven in court.
- [43:24]
A
Yes, great point. And it's basically sparking this fierce debate because. So they own this synthetic, synthetic fat substitute. That's what made. So that's what they took, that was proprietary from, and they brought it over and they basically own this proprietary way that they've been able to condense this fat into protein. And it's why they created a second bar. And it's what makes David protein bar, like, special or different. And I guess the way that it's metabolized and legally measured is quite complicated because it's not like a, a widely used ingredient.
- [43:54]
B
There's probably two ways to measure it. And they went with the, the, the
- [43:58]
A
more favorable way but here's kind of what's crazy about it is, like, as this is all happening, they launched this campaign. And basically the campaign is focused on saying that, like, if you have brittle nails and dull skin, you're probably. Probably deficient in protein. So they're leaning into this idea of, like, if you want to look more beautiful, you should have more protein. And it's hilarious that the timing of this campaign is coming at. While there's this kind of under. Under pin of there's clearly not good protein. And it's like the fat bar from Mean Girls. See? Have you ever seen Mean Girls?
- [44:34]
B
Yeah.
- [44:34]
A
When, like, Katie gets and she, like, gives Regina the fat bars and she starts gaining weight, it's like the meme that's going on the Internet, it's like, I've been eating these and I'm getting fat. That was me with the midday squares where I'm not going to lie, I ate those, like, every day, and I for sure did not fit into my jeans in two weeks. They don't advertise it as a protein bar. I just ate it as such.
- [44:50]
B
There's a lot of controversy in the wellness space right now, especially with, like, Peter Atia being best buds with Epstein.
- [44:58]
A
It's so different.
- [44:58]
B
No, but, but I'm saying the claims.
- [45:00]
A
Oh, yeah, huh?
- [45:03]
B
Like, there's a lot of claims that go out there. And if the branding is good, you can get people to buy. Right? That's why you need people to actually test things to see if the claims are real. Because labels, as we've seen hundreds of times, are often very inaccurate.
- [45:17]
A
But here's the question I have for you, rogue lawyer. I think we're struggle with protein bars myself. Okay? They should not be able to lie about an 86% difference in. In calories. Like, that's a problem. And a 400 difference in pro. Like, that's a huge problem.
- [45:31]
B
It's a catfish video for David's bar on literally.
- [45:35]
A
But, like, the thing that's complicated, though, is whenever I eat protein bars, I don't feel like they're healthy. Like, I feel like it's. It is kind of a commodity concept.
- [45:47]
B
Rx bars were healthy because it was dates, eggs, and molasses or whatever it was. Right. Whole foods are healthy. Foods that are. Put it through a factory with 500 ingredients and taste like birthday cake and are sold to you as being healthy are not healthy. Your body knows it when you eat it, and it doesn't feel healthy. Trust what your cells are telling you, not what the label is. Telling you, you know, we can have meals where we feel amazing after a meal, and then you can have a meal where you feel gross after the meal.
- [46:16]
A
Well, it's like when Oren does, like, his series of, like, are you buying the brand? Are you buying the product? And I think why I wanted to celebrate David's is that it was always about the brand. And I do think that in a lot of categories, having that understanding is the difference. Right. Like, a lot of business owners can have a great product, but they want to cut the corners on the visual experience and the brand identity. And like, in something like protein powder, protein bar, whatever, like these kind of more commoditized, supersaturated categories, the brand is the difference. And that's like, what's worth celebrating in that company is that they've been able to break out and instantly create trust and credibility. Not because the founder story is he's not super visible. It's not really about him. It's about the visualization of the product and the. And the branding and marketing that they've done.
- [47:06]
B
The caught element of David's. I thought that marketing campaign was brilliant, but. And lady Phil Hathier and putting. Putting the. The rogue lawyer hat back on. What it shows to brands is one, be careful about taking shortcuts about your claims, because it might give you a bump, but it could actually be catastrophic later if it gets investigated.
- [47:25]
A
Yeah.
- [47:25]
B
There's also just. My brain goes to, okay, what if the class action is found to be unsubstantiated? You know, what does David sue? They can't kind of countersue back. And how hard would it be to hire some people to do a class action, make a claim against a competitor, get the headline to take them out, and then just have it die on the vine?
- [47:47]
A
Well, that's the thing. That's crazy. I would love. There was a class action. I mean, among tons of others in California, but one that stuck out was actually on Nutella is a huge one. It's against Nutella because Nutella used to advertise as, like, a part of a healthy balance practice. And there's, like, nothing healthy.
- [48:02]
B
Have you seen the video of what's in a Nutella jar?
- [48:05]
A
It's, like, literally hot. Like, it's like hydrolyzed palm oil.
- [48:07]
B
It's like sugar to 4/5 of the way up, then palm oil, then like, 20, like, 20 nuts. The emulsifier, like, when you actually look at it, there's no way that you can say that's a healthy breakfast.
- [48:18]
A
But my point is is that they basically advocated for like they can't say it's a part of a healthy breakfast when there's nothing healthy about it to break it from being in any way. And they won. They couldn't. Nutella could no longer associate as part of like a breakfast thing. But the thing that my brain comes back to is like when you look at the grand like CPG wins when you just when you. When every household has it in their house. And I feel like Nutella is one of those things where most homes will have on hand like especially about kids in them. And how much did that really hurt its sales by having that negative press? Like I think my question is, I think the cat. Like if it ends up being proven to not be that different in a. In a caloric will that hurt the brand for the. The average person of who's the consumer? Because I feel like it's younger people that are buying David's bar.
- [49:10]
B
I don't know. Like when you look at the cereal aisle, it's changed a little bit. Like. Like it just used to be sugar and milk in the morning. Right. So I think there's a movement away from unhealthy. But. But there's also. If you're not healthy, sometimes it's good just to double down on it. Just say the tastiest breakfast in the world. You know, like that's the approach I would make. Ron. I'm trying to claim it as healthy. I know they did the way that the court.
- [49:32]
A
The court case ended. They couldn't at all associate their brand with breakfast.
- [49:37]
B
I'm not sure I think they can associate with being healthy.
- [49:39]
A
Yeah, maybe fact check me on that. I really feel.
- [49:42]
B
Because you can call yourself I can launch any product and call it breakfast. There's no rule that says that like what?
- [49:47]
A
Yeah.
- [49:48]
B
Has to get Hill here.
- [49:48]
A
Yeah. Okay, maybe you're right. I mean you are a lawyer. Okay, next topic. So I the neck. These two topics kind of go together but there's definitely two different ways of slicing it. So what was interesting is I wanted to talk about this headline from people, brands and things where. Because it's been something I've been tracking for a long time and we haven't talked about it on the show. So the headline is behind the scenes content is increasingly a quintessential component of campaigns. Which is why Gap hire a making of director and DOP to shoot a full length dedicated BTS along with their hero sweats like this music video. And what's interesting is this. I've been tracking which we'll talk about in a second. But then also this week we get this breakout headline of the staged brand leak between Jackie Alexander and Ava Francis. And it's very much what looks like a behind, like you're spying in on a conversation. And it's, it's, it was posted by a anonymous account and basically fans like picked up on it pretty quickly that it was like obviously a staged approach. But it shows you how this kind of like breaking this fourth wall, going behind the scenes is really so much more attractive to the user online than just showing something as it is. Or like on the face of it,
- [51:06]
B
there are two separate things. On the kind of cascade of cutting edge. BTS is taking pictures behind the scenes. Obviously right now people are staging bts. The breaking the fourth wall is actually kind of making fun of the whole system where you're kind of pretending to do it, but people are interested because the content is still good, but it's a more entertaining way to deliver it. You know what I mean? There's something psychological there that makes that breaking the fourth wall, where you're pretending that something is happening, it's being leaked, leaked, but it's going to have a short lifespan because once everybody does it, it's not going to be interesting anymore. And where do you go from there?
- [51:42]
A
I think on the leaked side, you're somewhat correct. I think it, I think it goes back to how big is your world? Because at the end of the day, like fandom, the. The thing that's interesting, that's kind of at both of these topics is that you have to give value. So the reason why the behind the scenes content does so well online, it's not. You need both. Like you need the polished, finalized, finished campaign. And then what gives value to someone is showing what happened behind the scenes. What did it take to get that shot? What did that look like? Because that's really the true learning nugget that I get as a consumer online is like the COVID is the COVID but how they got the COVID is more interesting because I'm actually learning something from that. And it's the same for when we talk about the behind the scenes of what they did to launch their campaign is that if you have the right world, you're giving them value by, by making them feel like they're a part of seeing like a new thing, like a break the news piece. So I think it like if Harry Styles was secretly filmed talking about his new nail polish line, you and I wouldn't care. But his fans, people that are Part of his world, even if that was a staged piece of content, gives them value. It gives them something to take away with.
- [52:59]
B
It goes back to last week's topic when we were talking media interest, media for social.
- [53:04]
A
Yeah.
- [53:04]
B
Like your. Your media actually has to become the content. It just has to be entertaining.
- [53:10]
A
Yeah.
- [53:11]
B
Right. And so you're going to constantly be in a battle to say, okay, how do I make the media around my brand entertaining and. Or informative or educational. I was thinking world building. I don't know where Jordan is, but he was interviewed a couple weeks ago saying, could The Bulls beat LeBron's All Star team team today? Right. And then it goes on. But then the hook in the end was. Is like, he thinks he could beat him at their age compared to the recent one. Like, it was hilarious. It was it. But so, like, I would make a media piece, especially if they were all Nike, of the kind of older guys who were in the Bulls, like playing against some younger. Like, you have to. You can make your content entertaining to your audience while selling your. Your brand.
- [53:51]
A
But what's funny about that, though, is even to what you just said, that's where you have to think in terms of being a media like house. Like, the theme of Chase episode is really this idea of world building, because on the face of it, how many people would tune in to that game a lot. But imagine how much deeper that storyline goes and how bigger that world is if you showed them, like, practicing and training together and like them sucking wind and like, like skits and like, like, that's the piece that I think people need to really take away from. This episode is like, like the brilliant idea. The thing is very smart, but it's also what happens around the thing. And that's why world building is such a smart term, because it's actually larger than that. It's like universe building. So if, if the. If your planet is this idea or the like, what's orbiting around it, like, how are you making it such, like, such a desirable destination? And that's why when you look at like, like Love Story, the show has had such brilliant amplification of marketing. Like Calvin Klein's is trying to relaunch a 90s collection because she was trying to work and road, you know, taps into the makeup artist. And like, you have so many brands, everyone's talking about it that it makes us want to go and watch the show. Right? And like, so the show is its own thing, but it's all the stuff that's around the show that's building this world to making you go and watch the damn show.
- [55:16]
B
I just want to take a moment to tip my hat to you for your astrological use of analogy there.
- [55:22]
A
Thank you.
- [55:23]
B
You really stretched it because I lost a little faith this morning when you said Mexico City was closer to Toronto than to la.
- [55:30]
A
I did say that. And you know what? It's even this morning. It was literally an hour ago, but way to go.
- [55:34]
B
But you were getting the solar system, so that was amazing.
- [55:36]
A
I mean, you called Timothy Chambly. Oh, wow. Shamwell. I was honestly all time.
- [55:40]
B
Did you win the Oscar yet? It's live. Let me check. And I get live reactions. As we go over filming here, I
- [55:45]
A
want to say something to you that's like, I. Like, I have not told it, so. I really love Khloe Kardashian's popcorn. I think the cloud popcorn is dope. Why? Because I really am in my protein era. I'm not gonna lie. And I love that it's, like, a really good product and it's plus protein. But I must say, every time I go to enjoy the product because the product is a good product, I can't understand for the life of me why she made it about herself. And I feel like the weakest part about that whole. I think the idea of calling it cloud with a kh whatever is cute, but her being about, like, every campaign, making it about her is, like, flawed marketing 101. Because she's not making the customer the hero. It's so tied to her. And I just. I know the brand is successful. They have good distribution, but I wonder how the brand could be different if it wasn't trying to be Khloe Kardashian's popcorn, because I really don't. I respect her, but I really feel like I have to be a bigger fan to be, like, to. It's like I'm almost eating, like, her, like, fan merch opposed to, like, a really good product.
- [56:57]
B
I don't know how to add to that. Have I eaten this popcorn?
- [57:00]
A
You eat it every day.
- [57:01]
B
Oh, that's the stuff. Well, I don't even see. I didn't even know it was her products. And I like the product, so I don't know how if I'm supporting you or not supporting you with that, but I love the product.
- [57:11]
A
But the question is, like, would you buy it? If I didn't buy it, I would
- [57:14]
B
definitely buy protein popcorn, but the way that it looks.
- [57:18]
A
Oh, yeah, it's set up. It literally looks like a. Like a unicorn's, like, puke dream.
- [57:22]
B
Yeah, but, like, I don't think you
- [57:23]
A
can really answer this question. I feel like you would never buy it off.
- [57:26]
B
No popcorn packaging. I don't think it's more than any awards. You know what I mean? Like, I love the oh, my ghee. You know the ghee butter one?
- [57:33]
A
I thought that was literally a whole other episode segment. It's Lesser Evil. We can never remember the damn name of Lesser Evil because they've got a huge ass Buddha on the bag. It says OMG Ghee in huge letters. And then above it is, like the random brand name, which is called Lesser Evil, which. Please tell me how a Buddha and Lesser Evil work together.
- [57:53]
B
I don't know, but I love that popcorn too. But the protein, the. The. The descriptive label is what got me. And so with this protein movement, it's good to have protein popcorn there rather than like a big label that I don't. That doesn't say anything.
- [58:06]
A
My question, though, is, is like, it's so tied to Chloe. Like, is it smart that it's tied to Chloe because it amplifies Chloe as a celebrity, which is like, guess what she cares the most about? Or should it not? Because, like, the story. Brand concept in marketing is that the customer is the hero, you are the guide. And when it's called cloud and every campaign is her dressing in a new character costume, is that propelling the brand forward or is that propelling her forward? And how much potential sales has she lost?
- [58:37]
B
I would say it was very smart because I don't think she lost any sales because if it wasn't tied, it'd be hard to get traction. But because you bought it, everybody bought it. I now like it. So now I'll buy it. I don't have to go on a product journey to be like, you've brought it into the house. I eat it, I like it, I'll buy it. So there's no finish it.
- [58:56]
A
Like, you literally, it's. I have to, like, I have like, Aaron sneak me in extra bags through the bag. The guy crushes them.
- [59:01]
B
Yeah. So I think, like, it. It worked for her just objectively. Right. But Lesser Evil.
- [59:07]
A
Lesser Evil is a fantastic product.
- [59:09]
B
Yeah.
- [59:09]
A
All right, cool. Well, we don't have to edit any fighting out this. This episode.
- [59:13]
B
That's amazing. After your spanking, I think we're good to go.
- [59:17]
A
Well, everybody, I would love to hear your thoughts on the cloud dilemma. And we have a very dead dog here ready to go home. I hope everyone has an amazing week, and I look forward to seeing you
- [59:27]
B
guys next Sunday, we did not get our live Oscar result before the end of the episode.
- [59:32]
A
Is there anything else?
- [59:33]
B
Who did you think was going to win?
- [59:34]
A
Yeah, there's things that I've been so unengaged. I feel like after they've created all of these, like, these loose, like, DEI necessities to movies, it just. I feel like the last few years, the movies have just are not been worth my time. They've changed the parameters in which you
- [59:51]
B
can't win an Oscar unless you. You meet these. To me, I will say, honestly, it totally took away all legitimacy of the, oh, Oscars when you put those things on there. I understand they were trying to get more people into acting or into the sets, but once that happened, I never thought that the award would be given to the actual best movie. It would be given to the movie that has the most boxes checked.
- [60:14]
A
Well, it's like when we randomly were watching. The moment I actually gave up was when we were watching Shape of Water and they, like, randomly had to throw in, like, a lesbian scene. And I'm like, why is this happening? Like, it wasn't a part of it. No, it wasn't.
- [60:28]
B
It was.
- [60:29]
A
No, it wasn't. No, no, not Shape of Water. Then the. What was the one with Emma Stone that we watched a few years ago?
- [60:34]
B
Oh, the. Yes, I know the one you're talking about. Like the. The Spanish one. Shape of Water was one with a fish.
- [60:41]
A
No, not that.
- [60:41]
B
Like that one with the fish was. That was Benito Doro. But, like, she had sex with a fish in that one and there was no requirement. I thought that was fairly inclusive.
- [60:48]
A
No, no, no, no, that was good. It was good. No, what was on with Amazon if you can't Google it?
- [60:52]
B
Well done movie.
- [60:53]
A
It was called something like that. Here we go. Poor things, poor things, poor things. It was poor things when they lost me. Because, like, nothing about the storyline, like, it wasn't authentic to the storyline.
- [61:03]
B
It also had a lot of minorities in a time where they wouldn't have been there as well. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I found. I feel like just tell the amazing story.
- [61:12]
A
There's so many good stories to tell. No, there's so many good stories to tell in ways that. Like that. That. But also, it's. I also don't think it's that also. It's. It's. It's forcing something for the sake of having it versus allowing art for the sake of art. Like. Like, that's the argument, because it's. There should be diversity in film. There should be different sexualities like there. There's so many great stories to tell. It's when you can't have a story without having everything in the story. And it makes. Then stories lack dynasism from story to story. And that was. That's my point is that I don't want to have to just every single movie be checking the same 18 boxes opposed to allowing art for art's sake. All right, well, until next time, everybody. We'll see you next Sunday.
- [62:00]
B
We're living the dream in Hollywood. Loving it.
- [62:02]
A
Until next week, everybody.