← The Art of the Brand
The Art of the Brand
Is Your Brand Getting Bad Advice? New Growth Framework, Oman Recap & Our Hot or Not Showdown
01:27:13
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- [00:00]
A
Of all these case studies that I've read, like, what makes these businesses and these brands successful is a very true understanding of culture and having company buy in to that culture. Like that's what attracts, whether it was the Ikea story or the four season story or the Home Depot story or the Walmart story. Like, what made these brands great is that there was a higher order purpose that the employees could buy into Trader Joe, Trader Joe's. Like these great brands that transcend decades and like we all understand instantly that it's a great brand is because of their culture. And it's easy to say you have principles, but if you don't work through what they actually are and you don't identify them, it's just, it's words without meaning.
- [00:42]
B
What a brand, what a brand, what.
- [00:43]
A
A brand, what a mighty good brand. Say it again now. What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand.
- [00:52]
B
Back in the studio since being in the desert. Let's get this party started.
- [00:57]
A
Well, we have a new framework.
- [00:58]
B
We do.
- [00:59]
A
So we're going to be testing out a new framework. Would love your guys's feedback on if you like this or if you have constructive feedback for improvement. We're also going to be adding a brand audit to every podcast. So I'm going to be creating a form that will be in my link in bio, the Camille Moore.com and you can fill out your information and submit your brand. And we'll be doing one of these per week and then we're also going to be trying to do some lives once or twice per month. So look out for that information.
- [01:34]
B
People love the live audits of other people's brands.
- [01:36]
A
Absolutely.
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B
And we thought since there's so many loyal people who follow us if they want to submit it, we'll put the brand up and then we'll give you a live audit on what's working, what's not working, and you can get feedback from people and it's a great way to grow and people enjoy seeing it.
- [01:49]
A
So look out for that. So let us get into it. I think we should start with an Oman recap. We were in the Middle East. We were in a really, really cool country called Oman, which most people don't really know about. Yeah, it's definitely up and coming. If you're looking for an interesting vacation, that becomes a very cool party topic. Oman should be top of your list.
- [02:11]
B
Expensive as heck though.
- [02:12]
A
Yeah. So it's got like the third highest currency in the world or strongest currency in the world. Super safe country. Really, really beautiful and interesting place because it's on the tip of, of that horn in the Middle east, kind of where Saudi Arabia is. But it's right on the edge of the water. So you get like beautiful beaches. The water was really warm, beautiful wildlife. We saw like live turtles.
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B
Flying fish.
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A
Flying fish. It was really, really beautiful. But was. We actually had a really interesting brand moment. And so I had booked the first hotel in Muscat, their capital, the Shangri La, based off of an influencer, a travel influencer that I follow. And her name is Salty Lux. And she's a great, a great account for kind of like doing things different, like not super luxurious, high end, but like definitely not low end. But I just, I really like how she approached just doing traveling because it's just, it's kind of like on brand for us. Like, it's unique, interesting, but like well executed. So Oman was one of her travel recommendations and that's why we booked it. But she had gone to the Shangri La and I, you know, quite like a nice hotel and I ended up booking the Shangri La, but I booked the wrong one.
- [03:32]
B
Yes. The problem being is that one, from our branding perspective wouldn't think that there would be different tiers of Shangri La because we're fans of the Four Seasons and we just kind of assumed Shangri La was like the Four Seasons. Right. And I think when you were booking it, this, this one amazing property in Muscat has three kind of tiers of hotel on one thing. And because the price was high, you booked this one place that was really a family resort.
- [03:58]
A
It was literally horrible. It was like it was run down. It's like.
- [04:03]
B
It wasn't horrible. It wasn't what we expected.
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A
It was horrible for what we paid.
- [04:07]
B
Yeah, but it wasn't, you know, it was a nice.
- [04:10]
A
I think, I feel like that is actually accurate language because if you are booking a five star hotel and you have brand reputation of being known as a top end, and it's not top end, you can use dramatic language because you're supposed to be at the top. So if it's not at the top, it's bad. You know what I mean?
- [04:30]
B
So just to frame it out for people, it's one of the most beautiful properties you can imagine.
- [04:33]
A
Seriously. It's a Four Seasons land.
- [04:34]
B
It could be a Four Seasons or it could be on White Lotus. It's. That's beautiful. But, but they have three hotels there and they have the high end one, they have a medium one that's great for Weddings. And then they have a family one, but they're all under the Shangri La brand, which is what confused us. And you booked us into the family child hotel, which was fine. Kind of.
- [04:56]
A
No, it was honestly the judge me. Judge me if you need to judge me. But I really realized why I can justify great execution without it being, like, over the top, or if it not being, like, all the time. But when you get one vacation a year. It was not restful to be at that property with so many kids, so many. Like, it was just that. That was why I'm being a bit maybe dramatic in the explanation, because the difference of, like, how my soul was at rest between the higher end. Like, there was, like, they didn't overbook. Felt like nobody was there. It was, like, very. Like, it was just very. It was just a complete difference. Like, it's apples to oranges and it's all under the same name.
- [05:45]
B
But it was a bit of brand malpractice because the Shangri La just seemed to be arrogant. And they thought that they could just kind of carry three things and put families there. Indian weddings in the middle one. And then have their elite one. But they didn't differentiate.
- [05:58]
A
No. And they shared.
- [05:58]
B
And it caused us to, like, think a lot less of the brand when we went into the Shangri La. And I'll let you get into it, but the moment for me is when we went to dinner that first night, and it was Mexican night, and they brought. Not that these guys weren't trying hard, but it was a Pakistani band dressed as Mexicans, so they culturally appropriated Mexicans. And they were singing Spanish music with a very clear Pakistani accent. And we had kids running around us. And you can just imagine we just flew, like, 15 hours to get here to, like, relax. We've got kids running around us. A Pakistani Mexican fan.
- [06:30]
A
Pakistani Mexican fan.
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B
And we're like, this doesn't seem to be what we booked here.
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A
I really felt duped by an influencer. Like, I actually felt betrayed by her. And I was.
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B
You're gonna yell at Salty Lux.
- [06:41]
A
I was gonna give her a piece of my mind. I'm kidding. But I. But what was really interesting, though, about this is that it really underscores what Rory Sutherland says, that a brand is the absence of anxiety. Because now I have anxiety towards the brand of Shangri La. Like, now, you know, even though we fixed it. And where this story goes is, uh, Philip. So my whole thing is, like, I actually black out when I see an instruction manual. Like, if there's any, like, steps to follow. Like I just can't do it. Like I. It's just, it's not, it's not my. It's not the greatest strength of mine. It's. But Philip is really good at like from his military background, he always makes sure like he understands where the exit is. Like he studies the maps and he saw the map based property that there was this like Sunset beach on this, this third property. Which by the way, when we checked in at 3:30 in the morning and it seemed like we were like literally checking into Chuck E. Cheese in the Middle east, the front desk guy did a really bad job of explaining the three properties because we were under kind of already. Like this doesn't feel right, you know, like, can we change? And it was really poorly explained to us. But anyways, we had walked over to this property because of Philip and when we got to the property it was like seeing a sunset. Like my soul was just like, here we are, I can rest. I made it. And we had a check in that day and it ended up being like literally a $25 price difference.
- [08:04]
B
No, it was about 100 bucks with.
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A
Like taxes and stuff though. But like it in the initial when they quoted us, it was like a stupid amount of money that I was like, okay, let's just go right now. But what was really interesting for that, that point on the absence of anxiety is like I went through all of the steps of like where did I go wrong, right? Like I was blaming my a consumer. And I was annoyed because when I was booking literally halfway across the world, all you have to go off of is social media and the website. And the problem with these corporate brands is that all of their socials are like high fidelity photo shoots. So the family cheaper one doesn't look that different from the high end, really nice one down the road because it's probably the same photo team coming in for a whole week and like two days at one property, two days at the next. And the property of the family property. Every single photo isn't like this is only for families. Like they're also showcasing for the adults and for the parents. Like we've got a daycare, they've got a daycare, right? So like they're showing shots of like the parents at dinner alone because the parents at dinner alone with kids like still want to go for dinner alone because they have like a daycare service. So my point is, is that when the socials are done from a high fidelity standpoint, it's very hard to get those steps for verification because like the website really looked the exact same and the only difference was price point. But the price point wasn't big. It was like $100 when I. Cause I did this a year in advance. So when I was comparing between the properties and it was a hundred dollars, there's many, many times I feel like there's more times that I'm faced with bigger companies actually not pricing where they should price differently. And you feel ripped off because especially with airlines and with hotels, it's a hundred dollar price difference because what you're looking at the river instead of looking just. I feel like you're constantly faced in this, like travel and hospitality of not knowing value for price point. And you go off of like those visual cues and they weren't there. And so where the story goes is that I ended up doing a video, kind of like an iPhone video, explaining this, but really through the lens of promoting the other property of like, this was my experience. This is why this is a brand problem, because there's so many business owners who, who aren't focused on what is the customer seeing, what is the customer experiencing. Because you're so in the weeds, you're forgetting how and why it's important to look from an outside perspective. So the whole point of that video was like, this is a brand issue for them, but this is such a fantastic problem that it's property that it's worth them fixing. And we ended up getting to sit down with the general manager and it was really interesting. And I think there's a lot, a lot that brands can.
- [10:58]
B
So you did a video. We kind of. We kind of went into a restricted area that was gorgeous. And you did a video saying, look, I'm sitting at one of the most beautiful properties I've ever seen. But we almost missed it because we were down the road at this other place that had been branded Shangri La. And nobody told us about the difference. And you were trying to be helpful. And then when you posted it, the general manager got wind of it and then they wanted to meet us. And so he comes and sits down with Camille Moore, the CEO killer. Let's see what happened.
- [11:25]
A
And he's like, you know, there's other mediums, there's other ways that you could have done this. Meaning I could have come and told the general manager instead of creating content. Well, sorry, buddy. We now live in a world where people are giving their feedback in live time on social media. But it also wasn't negative feedback. In fact, I had more people be like, oh my gosh, I Am totally booking here. This is amazing. The price point is crazy. What an interesting video because nobody cares about like just pure celebratory videos. There needs to be that element of controversy. There needs to be an element of like, this is worth my time to watch the video, which is what I said to him.
- [11:59]
B
And this is kind of a problem in business and some marketing channels is you get people who get annoyed that you're not doing things the way you want them to do it and they're your customer. Yeah, right. So in the new world where people come and take videos of where they're staying, you can't get annoyed if people do a review on their digital platforms. You have to understand that's going to happen and plan accordingly. But you could sense this frustration that it was done that way as opposed to a customer comment card, which.
- [12:24]
A
But this is where it actually becomes really interesting because he, his whole approach and mentality is like, oh, yeah, you know, what you're saying is like so normal, but it's really your fault, you know, like, you're an idiot. Like, and I'm so glad you found us. And this happens at such a frequent rate that we're shuttling people over and changing them, you know, three times a day from the other two properties. And you so astutely was like, well, can't you realize, like, that's a problem.
- [12:55]
B
If you're moving people every couple days because they booked in the wrong hotel? And it's kind of a, it's a mindset shift that people can look at. When you have a customer come to you with a problem, your goal is not to convince the customer that they're wrong. You really should be asking three to four level deep questions about what the customer experienced. And that's. This was kind of like, hey, thank you for doing that thing. You could have done it somewhere else. It's really not a big problem because we just move people over here and then they're happy. And you're like, well, it's not fun to move your hotel.
- [13:25]
A
No.
- [13:25]
B
When you're in the middle of your vacation, we felt like we lost two days. And then he's like, you know, it actually happens all the time. And we're like, your UI UX experience isn't perfect if this is happening.
- [13:35]
A
No, you're messaging, you're positioning your visuals like what it's telling people is wrong.
- [13:39]
B
And you can't respond to the inputs from your business that if you're moving people every two days, you need to go to your marketing team and Say we are not clear.
- [13:48]
A
That's actually the problem, though, of, like, once businesses get big enough or established enough. And it's actually a really good core takeaway for wherever you are in your business because when you've been doing stuff long enough, you're not questioning on where you can improve. And I'm listening right now to Sam Walton's book, the Founder of Walmart. And one of my favorite takeaways from the book so far is he's like, we were just so obsessed on taking whatever we could, the best of whatever we could from other businesses. He goes, I didn't care about where they could improve or, like, what they were doing wrong. I only cared about what they were doing well because I could always take what they were doing well to adapt to our framework and to our business model. And in having this conversation with this general manager, he was just like, you know, it's totally fine to have three different tiers within, like, a luxury brand. It's totally fine that that property is 25 years outdated and this property is gorgeous for adults. And I'm like, in. I'm like, I'm trying to explain to him, like, no, you know, like, there's a standard when I go to the Ritz Carlton. There's a standard when it goes. When I go to the Four Seasons. Like, what are you losing? Like, what is the opportunity cost of you thinking in this way? Especially when you watched the video, like, you went to my page, like, you're sitting in front of people that you would have to pay a lot of money to get their expertise. And I'm trying to communicate to you how you can learn, because I'm now having a great time and he's not wanting to improve. And it's interesting because business owners can grow frustrated when it's too late. And it costs too much money to fix a problem that could have been addressed sooner. And that's really the takeaway from this is it becomes very complicated because if they lose us as a customer and they almost did, right? And the question is, I now have anxiety around their brand. If I'm faced with choosing them and someone else and I'm going to Singapore, am I picking them? And I don't know if I can say yes, even though that experience was great. When this happens on mass and the brand is not focused on fixing it as it's coming up, it costs way too much money and time to fix it when the problem is realized, because you've now had too big of a departure from where your brand once Was. And it doesn't happen overnight. It happens over time. And that's why the Shangri La I hope receives this, and I hope that your business can learn from this, because. And that's also the problem with having employees join.
- [16:17]
B
Whether you're a small business or a large business. I think most founders need to be reminded to really pay attention to customer feedback. Right. Like, really. Because the feedback we were giving them was high level. And I hope Shangri La headquarters gets that. That property is spectacular.
- [16:30]
A
It really is.
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B
There just needs to be only one Shangri La, which is the one on the corner. Right. And then you just rename the other ones. And maybe I think somebody thought, oh, we'll just keep them all Shangri La. But it hurts the brand. Right. It just has to be like the coolest family resort.
- [16:44]
A
Well, especially when it's Shangri La Al Waha, Shangri La Al Busan, and then Shangri La Al Husson.
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B
Yeah.
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A
It's not like Shangri La plus.
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B
And so what I would do if I was, you know, coaching a leader in that position, I say I put something up the chain of command, saying we need to be much clearer on our website booking.
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A
Yeah.
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B
The roles at each of these properties are. And maybe consider different sub brands to protect the Shangri La brand.
- [17:10]
A
Yeah.
- [17:10]
B
And when you book, it should just be so clear. But anyhow, it was because it was friendly. Gave us, like, a nice thing. That hotel is gorgeous. He's running a great hotel.
- [17:18]
A
He was running a great hotel.
- [17:19]
B
Right. However, the response is just an interesting thing for people to think about.
- [17:22]
A
And the other staff that worked at the hotel were amazing. We met many of the food and beverage managers that were great. They gave us, like, cocktails at sunset. Like, they really did do okay. A good job.
- [17:33]
B
And what we're gonna do at a following podcast. We made a great friend there named Haytham, and I hope that he's listening to us. He was a tour guide and he. He captures the culture of that country, which is so friendly, clean and respectful.
- [17:47]
A
Just such a good guy. If anyone wants to go to Oman after our content, send me a note. I'm gonna give you Haitham's phone number because he's just so incredible, so trustworthy. He's a cab driver that also does like tours, but really made the experience fantastic.
- [18:01]
B
Like sitting down and eating with him after our tour. But I just love seeing you as well. Camille is always building content creators. So Camille spent a lot of her vacation time helping this guy get a Viator account up, doing some videos of him. And I'd love to, at the next podcast, try to invite him in remotely just to say hello to Hazem on the podcast.
- [18:20]
A
We should always have to start early, though, because of the time difference. But that would be worth it. I mean, Haitham is so, so sweet. I think you would love that. Let's do it.
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B
Because that guy had language issues. He was nervous, but he so cared about meeting good people. And he really loved his job that when he said, do a video, oh.
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A
My God, this is the best part.
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B
You tell a story.
- [18:37]
A
So Haytham.
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B
So Haitham, we're gonna put this clip in the podcast.
- [18:42]
A
It was so cute. So Haitham has been editing on his phone. He also called himself a photographer, a Snapchat photographer. Cause he takes all his photos on Snapchat. And, um, we were talking about how he needs to create content for being, like, Oman's number one tour guide. Because Oman doesn't really have a ton of, like, Western tourist tourists that are, like, posting and talking. And he can speak English. And so I was like. I had my mics with me and we made sure that we did a video. And the first time he did it, he was, like, so nervous and he was, like, sheepish, and he.
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B
My name is Haitham. I am a tour guide in Oman. Please come to me.
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A
And I was like, no, Haytham, you gotta, like, give me your pizazz. Give me your zest. I wanna meet you. I wanna get to know you. You're the best tour guide, and you're the best tour guide. And the second video is just so.
- [19:30]
B
Cool because he's in that full white outfit. What I loved about Iman is that religious country, but not judgmental.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And women could do, but they wear these beautiful white clothings almost from head to toe. And they keep them so clean in the desert.
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A
They're so clean.
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B
Right. And when you kind of. You told him to go second try.
- [19:48]
A
He'S just like, hello, I am Haitham. And it was like he lived. He was living. And it was amazing because it just. It shows you that it's. We are, we are our biggest roadblock, you know, like, we hold ourselves back. And when you watch this video, like, you just smile and you just love him and nobody's judging him and no one's gonna judge you. And that's why, like, get over yourself. If Haitham can do it, you can do it. So.
- [20:13]
B
Amen.
- [20:13]
A
That is the move. But quickly on your point on the Oman dress before we move on. One of the things I also love most about Oman Is and learning about that part of the world and the culture, I really. There's just such a contract to the way the women dress and the way the men dress. Right. And growing up here and meeting women in abayas or in burqa's, it's more confusing when you don't see it or you don't get it, especially when a lot of the men Westernize. But it was cool to see that the men kind of have their uniform, like their dress. Cause it's very uniform. Like they all wear these white, long, very clean. They're like perfectly pressed. Like they're crisp on the side with their beautiful embroidered hats. And then the women have their, you know, their uniform, their dress. And it's the black abaya. And it's cool that they both.
- [21:03]
B
They also had the Omani dresses too, like, that were gorgeous. You bought one and wore it in the mosque, which I think they really liked. All right, Oman, great place to visit. If you go there, contact Haytham. He's a great human being.
- [21:14]
A
And go to Shangri La Al Hussam. Yes, please.
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B
Spectacular.
- [21:18]
A
Awesome. Next is branding celebrity of the week. So the celebrity of the week from a branding perspective. I'm voting Julia Fox. Julia Fox is a kind of like an Internet personality. She's kind of been having her moment the last few years. If you don't know who Julia Fox is, she originally was like a dominatrix in New York City.
- [21:46]
B
Sounds like a character from the show Billions.
- [21:48]
A
But literally, obviously met some influential people, I guess, in her line of work. And then became an actress because she wanted to get into acting. And then dated Kanye West. It was kind of like the first person he dated, kind of after Kim Kardashian. So it was kind of like a moment. And she's kind of become seen as like this avant garde kind of like sexualized image that like, pushes the boundaries on fashion, on. She's kind of seen as like a muse, a very avant garde character. And anyway, she did a campaign this week with Mac, and the campaign was really interesting. Effectively, she was just fully naked on the subway, like fully packed subway in the morning when, like, everybody's going to work with full blown makeup. And the way that the campaign went online is like her. You know, her private parts were covered up and it was like basically like, I only wear Mac. So the whole concept is that like the only thing she's wearing is Mac, but it's like the new nude lipstick. So it's like she's in the nude because she only wears Mac. So So the idea is that this was this really like avant garde, kind of shocking campaign for Mac, which is like Mac really pushing its boundaries. We haven't really seen Mac to be a boundary pusher in the last few years. I mean, it was a really iconic brand. It was the lipstick brand in the late 90s, early 2000s.
- [23:14]
B
It started off very on the edge, like cutting edge.
- [23:18]
A
And it was. And then it kind of went through its like dei, like you know, kind of phase where it really wasn't impactful. It wasn't really that interesting. You had Sephora enter into the fold and other beauty brands that really took its market share because it, Mac shined during a different time than like the influencer makeup brand. And I actually think this was a great campaign. I think it was cool that they worked with Julia Fox. You know, Julia Fox isn't someone that I'm, you know, super huge on, but I think that it was a really well aligned campaign. It was shocking. It cut through the noise and it was effective. And I liked that Mac went back to its roots. I feel like we're having so many conversations with these bigger brands and bigger companies where their marketing teams feel handcuffed, like they can't, they can't execute anything that feels on brand and it allows their socials to stop performing. But it's not a social problem, it's a brand problem. And I like that Mac is showing you that you can do things that push the boundary and get rewarded for it. So I want to applaud Mac. I think that is the celeb branding moment of the week and I think there's a lot to learn from that. And if you're a brand that's not particularly controversial, you don't have to be controversial to cut through the noise, but you do have to do something interesting.
- [24:35]
B
I was just looking her up though, on her Wikipedia, it doesn't really talk much about the dominatrix. It talks about being a model and then. And then her acting career. I just want to make sure we don't defame her. But.
- [24:54]
A
I think it was in her book. Yeah, so she was says. Yeah, she was. This here's an article right here. Julia Fox says working as a dominatrix empowered her and taught her how to act the artist.
- [25:06]
B
That's interesting. So Wikipedia that's now getting censored doesn't have that because to me that's. That's a formative thing in her character development. Yeah, right. In terms of going into business and acting, she had a tough childhood. Like she almost Died of heroin out 17 and got indicted. So really a cool character. But from a branding perspective, I think what brands can learn is that you don't need very boring people to represent your brand. And her story is impressive and controversial. And then that emphasizes what Mac used to have, right? That you're controversial and impressive and bold and unapologetic. And that's why I think that was a great collaboration for what Mac wants to appeal to, especially in young people who are looking to show their own identities through makeup.
- [25:56]
A
Yeah, no, totally. I'm just skimming this. You bring up such a great point. Like, it's what makes these. What makes these campaigns interesting is when they have depth. You know, it's like when they mean something. And like, that campaign wouldn't have been as cool if they just like, hired a random model and they were just like, naked on the subway and it was like, you know, like, it ties to her brand. And that's another thing. For bigger brands with bigger budgets, it's cool to do these, like, cross branding moments where you can say something by also riding on someone else's brand and what that means. And that's where, like, I actually really like this because there was a moment where Julia Fox was having her, like, 15 minutes and, like, brands were just, like, throwing purses and stuff at her so she would be shot. But that's not really what makes Julia Fox interesting, is that you can't really put her into a box. But, like, she has weight to her name because there's a darkness there. And I love that Mac touched, like, touch into that.
- [26:53]
B
To me, it's a refreshing example of a corporate headquarters making a thoughtful brand collaboration that has actually depth. So the people behind that campaign had some depth in intellectual thinking to know why it would resonate as opposed to a lot of the kind of surface level. Let's just get a celebrity and then slap them with their stuff and it means nothing.
- [27:13]
A
Well, quick fun fact about Mac, Mac is a Canadian company, and Mac really had its moment actually, like, in the States, like New York, Louisiana. Like, it was the lipstick of the late 90s, early 2000s. And the founders of Mac opened Impact Kitchen in Toronto. So for American listeners, Impact Kitchen is like, I don't know why they haven't expanded further. It's like one of the best, like, Russian food.
- [27:42]
B
We should be in LA and New York for sure.
- [27:44]
A
It's so good. And it basically, it's like all paleo dishes. They're just very well made, very good ingredients. It's like they have a Grab and go concept. It's just very well done.
- [27:55]
B
It's unapologetically healthy without being political.
- [27:59]
A
Yeah, right.
- [27:59]
B
Like, there's no vegan atmosphere to it. It's just. We're just giving you whole food stuff here and no carbs and it's spectacular.
- [28:06]
A
No, there's carbs, but it's paleo. Right. Cause Paleo is what's made from the ground. So, like, the bun is like non refined, non processed sweet potato.
- [28:15]
B
But anyhow.
- [28:15]
A
Yeah.
- [28:16]
B
But Mac, to me, just from a branding thing, if we examine it, when I was younger and I. I recognize Mac stood out as somebody who didn't buy lipstick, who might buy it for my daughters or the women in my life back then, but they had that uniform of being all black.
- [28:30]
A
Yeah.
- [28:30]
B
Their people who worked in the department store looked different than the other. And they deliberately made themselves outliers. Right. And there was that kind of almost gothic but black feel to it that I think attracted people. When you go into like a Bloomingdale's or something, there's like a sea of makeup counters. And then the Mac one stood out as this kind of dark black place where people wore black uniforms.
- [28:52]
A
No. I even like collected Mac lipsticks. And I. Because there was just such a cool factor to like, there's a bulletness to the lipstick. Right. It. And the formulas were good and they had so many colors. And it actually really made me understand the lipstick effect when that concept became so big during COVID is like, in down markets, people buy cheap things. And I remember, like, from me being, you know, working young and having disposable income because my parents didn't make me pay rent while I lived there as a teenager, I would buy so many lipsticks because of the price point. You know, they were $22 back in the day. And it was like after works, I worked at the restaurant. The restaurant that I was a waitress at was in the parking lot of my local big mall. And it was just such a, like, fun treat to go and buy myself because Aritzia was still, like, still $150 per shirt, per pants. 20 bucks just feels like that nice treat. So I had a bunch of the lipsticks and under the auspice that I was going to like, collect them. No idea where they went. I got all these, like, collector editions too, of these lipsticks. And anyways, I just thought that that was an interesting little aside. And packed kitchen is very good. So if any of our American listeners ever come to Toronto, put Impact Kitchen on your list and you'd be shocked that they're owned by the Mac family because there's like no indication of it. Like, it just, it's a very well executed, healthy recipe.
- [30:13]
B
It's making me think they're not, they're not like Gentle Monster. But it would be an interesting collaboration, you know what I mean? To kind of build Gentle Monster and Mac. Yeah, no, no. Gentle Monster and their cafe Mac and their kitchen. Do you know what I mean?
- [30:25]
A
Oh, an impact kitchen.
- [30:26]
B
Yeah.
- [30:26]
A
Yeah. That's interesting. Definitely interesting. Hot or not. I'm really excited for this. All right, so these are the, the breakdown of the brand collaborations and brand activations this week. And we're going to give them a hot or not label. So we're first starting with the Apple with a. We're first starting with Apple x Jacme collaboration and this is definitely getting the label hot. So for those who don't know, this past week was Paris Fashion Week and what Apple did is they were the exclusive technological partners of the Jacme photo Jacme fashion show. So that every single thing was shot on an Apple iPhone 16 Pro Max. So everything on the Runway, all of the like assets, visualizations of like showcasing each of the products. And it was really cool. They have these like robotic almost probably help.
- [31:37]
B
Remote control.
- [31:38]
A
Remote controlled. They're these like robotic remote controlled arms that were like shooting and capturing the clothes using almost like a dynamic movement. So it felt kind of more like a gimbal. And what they did is like a setup pieces. The elevator that people took to go into the Paris Fashion week, they had that set up with Apple iPhones. So they had all the behind the scenes shot with Apple iPhone. The entire photo shoot and Runway spectacular was shot with Apple iPhone. And then every guest that showed up to the fashion show was also shot on an Apple iPhone 16. So all of the content plus like, plus more was all shot on an Apple iPhone 16. And I thought that it was a fantastic collaboration because what Jacquem does so well is organic content. So Jacme is a, is a. For those who don't know, it's a premium fashion house. They do things in a luxury concept, but their price point isn't luxury. So it's kind of like a bit fast fashiony, if I was to be a bit blunt. But I don't want to minimize what the brand is doing because the brand is really executing. So it's kind of like streetwear meets like high end fashion. It's a very unique brand and there really hasn't been a brand that's done anything like this. But what's so interesting is it shows, shows you how much things need to be social first because iPhone is the best API connection for the social media platforms. So having everything shot on an Apple iPhone 16 makes it already ready to go for social media. So it's was a really brilliant collab because I think that Apple is like on this like weird precipice for potential like brand ostracization where like people don't really feel as connected with Apple, the rollouts aren't as good. We're wondering why do we keep feeling like we need to buy a new phone? But having this kind of, this cultural zeitgeist moment of being the exclusive fashion show partner is a hot move.
- [33:39]
B
It's hot. It's interesting because somebody, you're making the determination like everybody has better cameras. Better cameras, right? And so photographers want to use the best cameras, the best lenses. But by making it an Apple event, you're kind of telling people you can make pictures worthy of a fashion show. You know what I mean?
- [33:56]
A
Like you can shoot everything on your iPhone.
- [33:58]
B
It's got a message to anybody, gives.
- [33:59]
A
Value to the phone.
- [34:00]
B
And it's easy to share because everything was done on an iPhone. Everybody who was there, it's easy to share to airdrop. It was actually a very smart collaboration.
- [34:08]
A
It was very, very smart.
- [34:09]
B
That was hot. And it allowed us to get pictures and images of people in a lot more kind of natural conditions too, because the phones were everywhere.
- [34:16]
A
Well, especially too like even the elevator became a moment, right? And what's cool is the elevator became a moment of our eyeballs seeing the people showing up in a different way than we see people arriving at fashion shows. But it also became a moment because we saw the iPhones. So it was like, it became a social moment on both sides of like just an absolutely well done, fascinating execution. And Jacme is going through this play right now of almost providing a renaissance to technology. They're not trying to be advanced for advanced sake. They're showcasing how we can still do classic things with the assistance of technology. Which is interesting from the larger conversation happening with AI. And it's cool. Like a lot of the Jackmi campaigns right now are like showing that they have this one cool campaign of like the London ribbon cutting. I'm gonna show you. It's really quite cool and. But in like so. But it kind of looks, they're like old school, like fabric scissors. But it's all being done technologically so it's kind of this like intersection of like. Here we go. Click on. Click on that one with the umbrella and I'll make sure it's going up. See how it's like they're kind of making technology. They're showing old things being done in a new way.
- [35:42]
B
It's almost gentle monster.
- [35:43]
A
It's very gentle monster ish. It's very gentle monster ish. But it's less. It's kind of interesting. It's like less avant garde, less tech, more retro. Yeah, more. More old school European. It's like European gentle monster.
- [35:56]
B
It looks like 1950s science fiction. It's very cool. I love it.
- [36:01]
A
Yeah, right? So cool.
- [36:02]
B
Every time you say jack me, I feel like I'm saying jack me Jacqueme, like when I'm frustrated. F me.
- [36:11]
A
So that's Jacme that gets definitely the hot label next is Bala x Poochie. So do you know who Pucci is? Poochie is not Gucci. Poochie is a. An Italian designer that became. Was also very big in the early 2000s for a very kind of like retro, almost like, were you gonna say.
- [36:33]
B
Hot or not and say what that was? I don't know if you did it or not.
- [36:35]
A
I said hot over the next.
- [36:37]
B
No, but for the next one.
- [36:38]
A
Poochie. Yeah. Okay. I can say hot. That's fine. That's fine.
- [36:42]
B
Is it hot again?
- [36:43]
A
Yeah. Oh yeah, I think it's hot.
- [36:45]
B
I hope we got some knots.
- [36:46]
A
We have knots. We have knots. I think the Poochie. So, okay, so Gucci is not Poochie. Poochie is almost like a 60s style. Like bold patterns, very bright colors. They were very big in the early 2000s. They've kind of become a bit of like, it's a bit of like an Italian brand in the sense of like, you see a lot of like chic Italian moms still rocking the pattern. It really is a high end brand. And what I like about Pucci is that they haven't really sold out. So they exist. They're there. I would say the fashion community respects Pucci. It hasn't really had its like full revival, but they're not overly forcing it. It's just kind of like cool. So Bala is a weighted kind of workout brand. They became famous for bringing back the like old school weighted like arm and like ankle weights. And I like that this collaboration is cool because it's. Bala is a premium brand and I think it's the absolute right collaboration for its customer. So Bala really understands that its core customer would think something like Pucci Is chic. It's probably outside of their regular price range. I don't think it's an interesting brand extension for Pucci because it's not quite a luxury extension, but it is for that consumer. Right. Like someone who's walking around with weighted ankles, weighted ankle, and weighted risks is someone that's kind of more of a chic consumer. So it feels like the right kind of brand extension and right entry point into the brand, which is similar to what Goyard did by introducing Goyard wallets. Right. Is they. They have that lower price point of entryway into the brand. You get that brand loyalty. It creates a kind of next gen of consumers. So I think it's a hot partnership. I love the way that they did the campaign. It's very retro, very vintage looking.
- [38:38]
B
Oh, cool. Yeah, that works.
- [38:42]
A
And I think it's well done. Like, I think it's cool. It's hot. So I'm giving that a hot rating. Next is McDonald's. So McDonald's did its first ever female athlete meal. So what McDonald's became famous for a few years ago with Travis Scott is they started actually selling celebrity orders. And it became, like, a massive phenomenon because it tapped into who their customer actually was. And they ended up actually, like, selling out the world on, like, ingredients. And, like, because these just became like, all of the fans of these rappers and these stars were going to get their order. So it'd be like the quarter pounder with no pickles. You know what I mean? Or like the quarter Pounder with, like, no pickles, no ketchup with chipotle mayo. So it was like, actually the modifications that these, like, stars would use, really fantastic and interesting framework. But this week they did the first ever for a female athlete, and it's Angela Angel Reese, who is a female basketball player. And I actually think it's a hot, like, I think it's hot because of the way they shot the campaign. I don't know who Angel Reese is, but I love that they did this kind of, like, almost space jam, like, retro kind of campaign. And they put her in, like, a McDonald's jersey, which is like.
- [40:07]
B
I think you're very right. The space jam feel is there. And that's. That's very easy for teenagers to get. Get behind. Yeah, she's a WNBA player.
- [40:16]
A
Yeah, yeah, I know she's a WMA player. I just don't know what team she's on.
- [40:21]
B
Okay.
- [40:21]
A
Sir, do you know what team she's on?
- [40:23]
B
Not off end, but I can tell you.
- [40:25]
A
Yeah, I know she's so it's the first ever female athlete meal that they've done. So I think it's hot. I do think that was hopping on.
- [40:32]
B
To the WNBA success this year. I wonder what Caitlyn Collins is doing, the one who won player of the year. But it's nice to, to tap into that WNBA success. I don't know if that, if that's the girl who is competing with Caitlyn all year long because there was a big cool controversy. But they're tapping into controversy celebrating something and that'll bring people in the door for sure.
- [40:54]
A
Yeah. And I love, like, I just, I love the way they did the ad. I think that it's like a very well done. Like it visually is very interesting. So I think that. I think that's a hot. Don't worry, knots are coming. But this was a good week. The next is Cadbury launched a made to share campaign. So they redid their packaging kind of in a. Kind of in a bit like the share a Coke, you know, like how Coke like named them kind of on that line. But what they did is they redid the outdoor, sorry, the outside of the packaging based on like square break off based on different kind of zeitgeist moments. So it's like who booked the flight gets half the bar. Who booked the hotel gets a quarter of the remaining half. And then who gets to go on holiday gets like the last square. And it's like who keeps the group chat buzzing gets like 70% of the bar. Who chips in gets like half of the remaining 20%. And then the last square gets is like who leaves it on red. So like they're rewarding people from like zeitgeist moments. It's actually quite cool.
- [42:00]
B
Yeah, it's an interesting angle. Like it does kind of capture what people are feeling. Like I just, I'm not interested in eating the chocolate bar. So it doesn't make me want to buy the chocolate bar more. But like that's a campaign that's a question of well thought out, well articulated. But is it making people consume more product?
- [42:18]
A
I think it is because I think it now goes into like gift buying territory. So I think if they were to think strategically, like there's just a smaller percentage of people who are buying chocolate kind of period. But if you can increase purchase based on like a giving moment or like a laugh, like I would like for this one, like this is hilarious. Like the larger part of the bar is who pays the subscription. And then the last like three, three squares is like viewer two, viewer three, viewer Four. And, like, that is funny when you're, like, a parent filling up for gas. You're going into the gas station and, like, you, like, you can, like, laughingly give your adult children. You know, like, you guys can only get two squares because, like. Or me buying it for my parents. Like, if they pay for Netflix, like, you pay for Netflix for all your kids. So, like, that would be, like, a funny gift for, like, them to bring in. I think that's where it's smart, because.
- [43:07]
B
No, I'm saying it's smart. I just don't know if it's gonna be effective.
- [43:10]
A
So it's. Yeah, I mean, I guess that's. That's where we need to get.
- [43:14]
B
There's a lot of advertising that's creative and smart. Right. But it doesn't actually coincide with. With the revenue target. But from a brand perspective, it makes Cadbury a little cooler.
- [43:23]
A
It does, right?
- [43:24]
B
Because really, it's just an old chocolate bar with caramel inside. Like.
- [43:27]
A
No, there's no caramel in Cadbury. Caramel. Cause caramel.
- [43:30]
B
Oh, caramel.
- [43:31]
A
Oh. Cadbury is like, the good one.
- [43:32]
B
It's a purple one. Yeah. Okay, so that's. That makes more sense to me because it's a little bit more of an elite purchase.
- [43:38]
A
Like a stocking purchase, I think, like, amazing for stocking stuffers, amazing for birthdays, amazing for. I just think it goes into gift territory, which I. Is smart for chocolate. Like, it's gotta be on the down. Like, I would love to pull up.
- [43:54]
B
They should have different wrappers, like, right on the outside. So, like, if you give it to a kid, it can say this much to your best friend, this much to the smartest person in the world, this much for your enemy. You know what I mean? And then at the party, you can kind of give them out.
- [44:07]
A
Yeah, Well, I think that's kind of what they're onto, which is hilarious. So that gets a hot medium. Well, it's hot or it's not.
- [44:15]
B
Okay.
- [44:16]
A
It's like, you're kind of hot. You're kind of not. I think it gets hot.
- [44:19]
B
There's lots of kind of hot out there. But okay, if you think it's hot, then call it hot.
- [44:23]
A
It's hot territory. So next is Sol de Janeiro. So Sol de Janeiro did, like, a sponsored corner at the top of the Aspen peak in Snowmass. It's the Snowmass Mountain, and they did, like, a Sol de Janeiro branding. To me, this is a note. Sol de Janeiro is, like, literally spending so much on, like, PR and marketing activations like when we were in New York and meatpacking, they did one. I think it's a nod because it just doesn't have strategy to the brand. Like, Sol de Janeiro is a Brazilian scented line of body products. They became famous for their bum bum cream. And it. To me, I just feel like they're trying to be everywhere at all times. And I don't think that's strategic branding today. So I'm giving it a note that also that corner on Snowmass and Aspen Mountain is like the brand corner. So like last year it was like a gray Mallon ver. And also two years ago it was gray Mallon with. It was maybe just grey Mallon. It was like a red and white pop up with maybe Grey Goose. And then they did last year like a vuvre corner, that same corner, and it was orange.
- [45:34]
B
So it's kind of lazy.
- [45:35]
A
It's lazy.
- [45:36]
B
You're just kind of doing what others have done, thinking it's gonna have an effect. But there's nothing unique or thoughtful or dynamic about it.
- [45:42]
A
No. And I just. I don't feel like skiing at the top of Snowmass is where I'm thinking about Brazilian warm scented body creams. Like, especially when we've been in enough cities throughout our work travel where Sol de Janeiro was always doing activations. And you can just tell, like, there isn't a strategy. They're just spending money. So to me, that's a knot.
- [46:01]
B
Yes.
- [46:03]
A
Next one is laneige. So they did a CGI campaign also with skiing, and it's basically they made each of their water cream pods. One of the skiers, the. What are those called?
- [46:18]
B
Well, the cabana that takes you up. Cabana, though, whatever it is.
- [46:23]
A
Andrew, what is it called when the. When you're skiing?
- [46:27]
B
What is it called?
- [46:29]
A
Chairlift.
- [46:30]
B
Well, it's not. That's not a chair lift, but you're in an internal one.
- [46:36]
A
All right, Words coming.
- [46:37]
B
Yeah. A ski lift. No, it's like the ski lift that you step into.
- [46:41]
A
You know, the step into and like it closes around you.
- [46:44]
B
Yeah. On the big mountains.
- [46:45]
A
On the big mountains.
- [46:46]
B
Okay. Whatever. They made that. Okay.
- [46:47]
A
It's cgi. I'm giving it a hot. I actually think this is a hot festival.
- [46:51]
B
This is boring. Let's do. Let's say something interesting.
- [46:54]
A
I do it. I got something to say to it.
- [46:56]
B
All right. It's okay. Let's go.
- [46:57]
A
There's two knots this week, but I think that that's actually fine. It's a good week for branding. So laneige did the CGI based on their. They did like a ski campaign and the whole concept is like laneige keeps your skin healthy during ski season. And I actually think it's a hot moment. Philip is annoyed that they're all seeming to be hots, but I actually would be quite ruthless if they were not.
- [47:20]
B
No, but that was good. That represents the moment. Well. Gondola, Gondola, gondola.
- [47:25]
A
It's a gondola. So. But the reason why I'm giving it a hot factor is I think that CGI provides a really interesting and unique way to have a sales focused moment.
- [47:36]
B
It's entertaining.
- [47:37]
A
It's entertaining.
- [47:38]
B
The way that the CGI works is entertaining and it's got a direct link to something that people experience on the slope, which is dry skin. So it's. Well.
- [47:45]
A
And it's just visually interesting all around. So CGI is something I highly recommend your brand Explore while it's having its moment because it's working. It's hard when you're focused on like selling products on socials and like selling on socials doesn't work if you're doing it directly. Like, we, we don't go on socials to sell just to be sold to. We go on socials to be like entertained or educated to receive value. So what I like about these CGI moments is that it's checking both of those boxes. I feel entertained. You're feeling like you're giving me a sales focused moment. We both win. So that's a hot. Next is another CGI campaign brought to you by Benefit. So here's the ad. The ad is a woman who's like, clearly pumping something up on the base of what looks like soho. And like these random eyelashes are formed on the top of the building and then a bunch of stuff comes out of the roof. This is getting an absolute not from me. There's like no strategy to it. It's not interesting. There's been several CGI moments with like big eyelashes on buildings or buses or things where it's been done well. This is lazy. Like, there's just random eyelashes being built on the ceiling.
- [49:00]
B
It's not even well done on the roof.
- [49:01]
A
Like, it's.
- [49:02]
B
Even the graphics isn't that well done. I don't know if they're deliberately trying to look whimsical, but it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't connect.
- [49:08]
A
No. And like, I don't understand, like, why is there like random shit coming out of the roof? Like it's like balloon animals and like a random eyeball that flies out. Like, it just doesn't make any sense.
- [49:20]
B
Creative without intellectual strategy.
- [49:23]
A
Yeah. So that's.
- [49:24]
B
I'm not.
- [49:24]
A
It's not. And I. The reason I wanted to compare the both of them is like, CGI still needs strategy to be interesting. That might seem simple and, like, obvious, but it's. You know, when you're seeing brands, they just take a buzzword. They just take something that's hot, and they just. Just don't add strategy to it.
- [49:40]
B
The thing that you want to know about that is how much was spent on that ad. You know what I mean? Was that $50,000 at an advertising agency.
- [49:46]
A
To, like, they're done by CGI creators. It's a very niche industry, like the CGI creator pool. It's like, it's a burgeoning industry. There's like five that are doing this for all of the brands. It's about $1,200. It's not a lot of money, but it still requires thinking. Okay, so that is the benefit. Not. Next one is. We've got two more.
- [50:09]
B
I have one.
- [50:10]
A
Do you want to go?
- [50:11]
B
There you go. I'll finish it up.
- [50:12]
A
The next one is Chamberlain Coffee. So Chamberlain's Coffee is by Emma Chamberlain. She's actually a really interesting case study to study no matter how old you are. She's become very big with Gen Z's, and she was originally a YouTube star, did really well creating content during the pandemic and created a video per day and posted it and built this, like, loyal and big following. And she was, like, always making coffee on her YouTubes and then created her own coffee line called Chamberlain's Coffee. And she's just doing such a great job of selling it, and it's such a proof, like, she's really is taking out behemoths in the industry like Folgers and Maxwell House, like these coffee companies, because she's actually using social media effectively and interestingly. And the coffee is. Is good enough that a lot of people within different age ranges are buying Chamberlain's Coffee. So she's actually gone in store. Like, she has like a. She's has like a wholesale agreement. But this mark this week marks her first actual brick and mortar store. And to me, it's. It's a total hot. Because it shows you how big demand you can build by developing your own community online. And like, you just. She was able to grow to this point because she's continued to reinvest in creating organic content to, like, creating content every day and building a tribe. And there's the Emma Chamberlain brand and then there's the Chamberlain coffee brand and both are thriving. So I think it's a really good case study for influencer founded brands that are actually making positive change and are doing well.
- [51:40]
B
I think it's also a case for companies looking into. We've talked about it before, a company has a spokesperson or an avatar.
- [51:48]
A
Yeah.
- [51:49]
B
The reason why influencer brands are doing so well is they've invested in being trusted. So you can't just pick a model and have a campaign. But like if you invest in an avatar who's a personality that represents your brand that can do things that allow people to trust that avatar. Like people are moving to brands because they trust the spokesperson.
- [52:06]
A
Yeah.
- [52:06]
B
An influencer who's won the trust of a community, they trust it. So for corporate brands, how do you compete against that? How do people trust you again?
- [52:15]
A
Yeah, it's a great point. So next on mine is Abode x Charlotte Tilbury. This is a collaborative concept where effectively Charlotte Tilbury who's a very big UK beauty makeup artist has created this collaboration with this store that actually is a really interesting concept. So Abode, they sell their own products which you can get embroidered and it's like not embroidering done the boring way. It's really kind of quite cool and unique. But you can also bring in your own thing things to get embroidered. And it's kind of this concept of like you don't have to continue to consume from us to like to create, to make it customly yours. Like you can bring in your own pillow sheets, you can bring in your own makeup bags, you can bring in your own clothes to get embroidered. And Charlotte Tilbury effectively created like a line of colors for Abode and did a little pop up in the store. And I think it's hot because it's tapping into like niche communities. And a lot of these bigger beauty brands are, are focusing on like really big partnerships that fall flat like Charlotte Tilbury x Macy's or like a Charlotte Tilbury x Bergdorf Goodman's like these bigger brands opposed to these like one off smaller concepts that have these like niche followings. And it shows you the power of niche audiences. Because I hadn't heard about Abode. When I like search them, they don't have a crazy amount of followers. I people that I follow that are like if you know, you know kind of people like the trend finders are the ones following them. So they're kind of in, in my way what's interesting is I learned about Abode through Charlotte Tilbury. But I'm like, I think Charlotte Tilbury is cooler because it's tapping into people that aren't huge. And it shows you the power of those niche audiences. Because if a brand like Charlotte Tilbury is focusing on this like smaller niche, almost upcycling brand, it shows where bigger brands are focusing for community building.
- [54:09]
B
I don't really have anything to say on that. I think I agree with you.
- [54:12]
A
Cool. So what else is on your then I got one more that I saw both the saw this morning. Give me your hot or not.
- [54:19]
B
No, you do yours and then I'll wrap up with mine. Cause I think mine's a bit of a wrap up one.
- [54:23]
A
Okay, cool. So the last one is Casper x Demello. So they did Casper as a Canadian sleep brand. Sleep brand, very well done sleep brand by the way. Like I own literally everything Casper. Their dog bed. I've got their sheets. I have one of their mattresses. I have their pillows, their light, their lights. I am literally like how I have everything Apple. I have everything Casper. So I got an ad from them. And De Melo is, you know, in the. Well, there's like that with that tiger. That coffee shop that's like closer to era on Spadina. It's got a really cool logo. It's this kind of like this like almost like Nacho libre inspired like tiger. I don't know if it's Asian. I don't know if it's like Mexican, like fighter, but it's like this kind of bright yellow, really interesting kind of mask face. So Casper did a collaboration where you're doing a pre order, it's $50 and you get two silk masks that have like almost the tiger's like funny eyeballs on them. And you get a bag of coffee and it's like a specific like Casper XDMelo branded coffee. I'm giving it a not.
- [55:26]
B
Oh really?
- [55:27]
A
But I think the partnership is interesting. I think that I. The way they also did it also is it's a pre order. So like the way the ad is like pre order. This closes February 5th or February 6th. So they're creating this drop capsule concept. But where I think they missed the mark is I think that they could have done a better job of explaining. Explaining the. In the collaboration. I think even the way the ad came up, it was like De Melo ex Casper pre order. Now. There was no logos, There was no like visual of what the product was.
- [56:01]
B
It should have seen visuals of people looking cool sleeping with a mask.
- [56:04]
A
Wait, did you see how cool that.
- [56:05]
B
Was because people like masks and if you're just putting on a black one, it's kind of cool to have this. This masquerade feel when you. No.
- [56:12]
A
100%. And I just feel like across the board, like, I think the concept is really interesting. It makes me sad that they kind of missed the mark. So this wasn't the ad. So this was. This was what the ad should be. It should be like Casper XDmelo pre order now. But they're putting money into an ad when I don't follow them because I'm not going to follow a mattress company on Instagram where they put the true visuals on their in feed. And then their ad, which is actually marketing to more people that they don't know, love the brand is not coming with the visuals for the product. So I'm only giving it a knot because idea is there. Love what they're trying to do, but execution could have been done better.
- [56:51]
B
Wonderful. My Hot or Not gets a bit into more deeper contextual issues that are in the marketing world. But since we speak to a lot of founders who are struggling with marketing and marketers who are trying to stay relevant with the new transition of power in the United States, we have seen a transition clearly away from dei. So DEI is now not hot. Whatever your politics are, we're in the business of helping people make money and so we need to be grounded in reality. And the timing of it was really emphasized by that LA fire chief who came out and said, well, if I can't carry somebody down the stairs, I would say to that person who needs rescue, why did you put yourself in that position? And there are branding moments that move tides and you can see in business a strong tide away from it. So as founders, it can be a good relief because you can now go back to common sense and say, let's focus on what works. What my target audience is, let's stop trying to please everybody and let's please the people that need our products. And for marketers, I think we were talking about, there's a lot of preference falsification out there where people are saying things that they don't actually believe because they don't want to be outed and or judged. But we're in the business of companies making millions or going bankrupt. And if companies go bankrupt, people can't pay their mortgages. And so I think what's hot now is going back to just purely rational decisions about how do we serve our marketplace. Companies can save a lot of money now and not trying to Please, everybody. So what's not hot right now is dei, whether you like it or not. And I think for marketers, you have to adapt and get back to reality.
- [58:30]
A
I think getting back to reality, though, is not quite the right finalize. Like it's getting back to your brand's core. Right. And that's what I was writing, writing about this week is that the whole DEI concept is so complicated because you feel like you can't, you can't argue against what seems like the right thing to say on its face. And the question of what makes branding an art and what makes branding so complicated is understanding what is the right message for what your aim is. And if your aim is a conversion and you're in an attention economy and you're fighting for eyeballs, if you're saying something that doesn't directly tie to your differentiator, why this matters for the customer and why that you're the best product or service for the job that you solve, it's a missed opportunity, it's a missed gift.
- [59:17]
B
When I say reality, I actually mean it because what happens is target market. There has been an absence of reality in actually determining what human behaviors trigger buying patterns. Because people have been grouped in everybody is this. Everybody is this. There's no difference between demographics, age groups, cultures, races. Right. And so people haven't even been able to have conversations about that stuff. Now I think we're gonna have to. Many of the big companies are gonna have permission to go back into saying, okay, what do we have to do to target the customers as opposed to appearing to be just vanilla to everybody.
- [59:49]
A
Well, it just where it becomes complicated is the larger question for the bigger companies that we're discussing. It's an ESG issue. So it's when do the stock price valuation at what benchmark are they being graded at? Because the DEI appointments, if those are coming down, what does that do to Walmart stock? Right. And because that's where it's complicated. If you're a smaller, medium size size business, you've been having your marketing team direct you based on what they're looking up and it's like, don't look up because these public companies are doing things under different benchmarks than what makes sense for your smaller business. So from the, the, that's where I think this conversation is just a bit more complicated because we're starting to see the fall or pullback from these bigger companies for how much money they were spending for these, these DEI internal organizations. But what does that mean for the ESG stock price Valuation because that's why they were there.
- [60:46]
B
You know, Walmart canceled all of their DEI programs and their stock has gone up over the last couple months.
- [60:52]
A
Interesting.
- [60:53]
B
Yeah, so that's what we're doing this week.
- [60:55]
A
Yeah, yeah, last few months.
- [60:57]
B
But in a week it hasn't dropped.
- [60:58]
A
Okay, so that's the more interesting conversation is like how is this impacting the larger public companies? I think where the small to medium sized business owner, it's like just don't look up, you know, like this DI movement has felt like such a train to jump on and these bigger companies are realizing that they've been spending a lot of money without effect because they were doing this for not the right reasons. They're trying to please everybody and that.
- [61:25]
B
Negative effect is amplified at a smaller level. Yeah, so if you're copying kind of an ad campaign of a bigger firm that's already got seized market share, you know, they can afford that mistake. But if you're a medium or small size business, you can't afford to waste your marketing dollars. Which I think leads us into that boosting Facebook topic we were going to talk about.
- [61:45]
A
Yes, well, so this is really interesting. So for those who don't know this is not new, it's newer but on Meta, so Facebook turned to Meta, owns Instagram and Facebook. So Apple, so really, really interesting thing about Apple is I got this comment on our video on TikTok about we were like kind of tearing apart Apple, iPhone 16, the UI, UX, what this means for Apple at large. And he said under Steve Jobs Apple was hyper focused on product. But under Tim Cook Apple is hyper focused on subscriptions. And the reason being is Tim Cook identified that there was like a, a kind of like a plateau in where technology has gone for how much they can improve product specifications year over year. So if Apple changed its focus to being a subscription based business, it could continue on that hockey stick growth. It could continue to grow to this like behemoth of a, of a brand and a business. Which is really, really interesting. When you actually analyze what Apple is pushing and what Apple has become, it's really become an app and a subscription based business and it's focused the best and the most amount of apps. Even when we went into the Apple Store to get my laptop fixed, there's like this whole pitch of like speak to a business advisor, it's free, you can sit down with him and he can tell you about all the apps that are available to help your business. So they're trying to educate and inform Apple customers on the range of apps that can, like, create solutions for their life, because those apps could result in a rundle, a monthly subscription fee for X amount of hundreds or thousands of dollars per year per month. And that's a better model for them to get into because they already have you hooked and bought on a product. So, which leads to where I'm going with the boosting piece, which is Apple's changed its model. So Apple, if you boost a post on your Instagram, in feed or on your Facebook and it goes through Apple Pay, which is super easy, the downside is it's costing you 30% more money. So as this change first happened, they only did a small amount of comms. Meta said, go on your desktop, do it through your desktop, do the boost.
- [64:05]
B
What's the justification for a 30% fee? Like, when you exchange money? Like, what are they doing to earn that 30%? It seems rather.
- [64:12]
A
Or maybe it's 25. Maybe it's 20.
- [64:14]
B
No, it's 25 to 30 because I just did it.
- [64:16]
A
Yeah, it's a lot of money.
- [64:17]
B
It's huge. It's huge, right? And it's interesting because as they're doing these brand collabs that are making everybody use their. Their phones more, then you get addicted to that because it's easy. They're now just gouging you with a boost. Like, there's not a value for it.
- [64:32]
A
It's actually an antitrust argument. And that was why. What was that famous. Andrew, what was that famous video game that, like, taught all the kids all the dance moves?
- [64:41]
B
Just dance?
- [64:41]
A
No, that's like. It's like a Call of Duty. But they. They dance in it.
- [64:45]
B
I thought it was just dance.
- [64:46]
A
Fortnite, like, Fortnite had that massive lawsuit with Apple because it's taking so much. But, like, they're. But Apple is now in this position where it's like, it's antitrust. Like, they just, they. Because everybody has it. They. They can demand it because where else are you gonna go, right? Like, you can go to Samsung.
- [65:05]
B
No, most kids don't have a desktop. Like, most young people don't even work off a day unless they go to work, right? And you don't want to be.
- [65:11]
A
It's a huge thing. But. But for those who are boosting their content, you're spending 25 to 30% more money by doing it through your phone. So do it on your desktop.
- [65:19]
B
Save 30%.
- [65:20]
A
Save 30%. And honestly, if you can afford the 30% difference, I would increase what you're planning to boost it on your desktop by 30% so that you can get more reach, more engagement, more impressions.
- [65:33]
B
And honestly, Facebook is a place people aren't using enough. Facebook gives you exceptional targeting ability that other ads don't in the same way. And so work from your desktop and use Facebook to target your audience better.
- [65:46]
A
To me you're saying something different though. You work from your desktop and boost your meta based posts through the desktop separately. Facebook has actually had a really interesting renaissance and we're seeing a lot of clients generate a lot of business and conversions by Facebook content.
- [66:04]
B
This is called womansplaining for the audience. But let's go ahead.
- [66:08]
A
Well, you're tying two concepts together. They both need to be explained.
- [66:10]
B
I like that them to be tied. Let's go ahead and keep, keep womensplaining.
- [66:13]
A
It's fine Facebook is doing. It's just, it presents a massive opportunity. More people are going on Facebook, more people are buying off of Facebook. Facebook was like the dead zone for like two or three years and it's really made a comeback. So it's worth considering Facebook also it's worth considering Snapchat. So Snapchat pays its creators the most amount of money and they're really making a push for more people to use Snapchat because initially it was like really a place for like young people. Like if you ask Gen Z's, they don't even like give each other people their cell phone numbers. They all just like add each other on Snapchat. They do all their communication through Snapchat. And I've started to find like parents like my mom's all over Snapchat because parents always go where their kids are. Like they, but they always adapt later. So there's now like young people and older people. But it's kind of missing that like millennial kind of pocket. But what's really interesting is Snapchat has become really like the biggest platform in the Middle east. And it's really fascinating. What they're doing is there's a feature where you can allow people to drop information to you, whether it's like adding you as a contact or add you as sent photos or for businesses to send promotions. So as you're like walking through the Mall of Dubai, businesses can like send you promotions to your phone, which are like. And they can customize them. Like they can give Philip different promotions than me. And there's like someone working out, like standing out front of the store, like dropping and sending these promotional sales, which is brilliant.
- [67:42]
B
You know, it'd be better because I, I love the Idea. I've often had a business idea of making sellers work for buyers, as opposed to buyers have to work to spend their money.
- [67:52]
A
Yeah.
- [67:52]
B
So sending me offers when I go into a mall is cool. I like the idea of. I like the idea of going into a mall and on Snapchat and saying, I'm looking for this as I go into the mall and then seeing what offers come from the people in the.
- [68:06]
A
Mall, there's so much for it to grow and evolve.
- [68:08]
B
I come in and I say, this is what I'm looking for. And then an algorithm checks it out and then you can get offers and have people compete. And it would be interesting.
- [68:14]
A
Well, it would be interesting if the business even gave AI autonomy that they can customize an offer within these parameters so that the consumer feels like it's like there's just so much for where it can go. But what's also really cool is I met a fantastic airline hostess for Air Canada, which I really need to shout it out when I see it because I've got many feelings about Air Canada. And she was amazing. And she was, like, showing me, like, she was going through, like, this whole buying process because she goes direct shop from Toronto to Dubai like, twice a month. It does all of her beauty stuff and all of her shopping and how much, like, businesses are just ingrained into the Snapchat universe. They're like, the way that the ads run. They're like mini landing pages you can swipe up. It goes, like, instantly into, like, messaging them. They can WhatsApp you. Like, they're so interconnected in a way that, like, just makes way more sense. It's way more customizable because, like, you're talking to an agent of the business when you're interested and, like, doing a service.
- [69:10]
B
It's using the phone properly to secure a purchase.
- [69:13]
A
Yeah, it's really. It just so it shows you. Like, if you're looking for ways of, like, where there's underpriced attention. The North American Snapchat model, it's not fully there yet, but if you get ahead of it early and start, like, mastering it, it's such a great place for it's coming. And Dubai and Korea, like, these places are ahead of us. And what makes why we went to the Middle east is we are. We're just getting so many more clients coming out of the Middle east. And they're not like, they're not like Arabic. They're like North Americans that, like, are moving from la, from Texas into Dubai. Like, there's just a mass Exodus and move to Dubai. So it shows you that they're ahead of the curve and we're planting seeds for where we think is is coming. So that's the boosting kind of 4, 1, 1. Let's talk about how to grow. So I've, I've in the past few weeks have had several conversations on a super hot topic that I think everyone is interested in and it is how to grow on social media. Because everybody's looking for that like simple trick, that like magic pill for how to grow followers. And I actually have it. And it's probably not the answer that you're looking for. And it's one that actually poses for an interesting conversation. And the simple answer is, is you have to be posting at least two times a day, two to three times per day, every day is the secret to growing fast on social media. And here are some interesting elements to that. So I was having this conversation with a pretty well known jeweler and she's just like struggling. She's like, you know, I've like, she's using trial reels, which is a really cool new addition to Instagram that you should be looking at where you can actually like post a video through trial mode and you can see like how it performs and then if it performs, you can actually like really launch it. So it gives you like a good indicator of like how things are working. And she's posting two to three times per day and she's using trial reels as a way to kind of decide like what actually makes it to the feed. And she's growing quickly and everything is, is going great. But what makes it really interesting is that day that her and I were having a conversation, she talked about which of her three videos performed the best that day. And what's fascina is I actually happened to be on social media that day quite a bit and I'd seen her top performing video, but I didn't see the other two videos that she had posted. And this is what is interesting is like people feel fear that they're gonna be annoying, they're gonna like bother their followers and they're just gonna be like spamming them. But the problem is that the algorithm doesn't show your content to all of your followers and you can actually, the more that you post, you can start to notice more trends. So the content that's like I posted an excite post which was me being in Cosmo. Full feature in Cosmo, the people that liked it and commented it are like the people I actually know. It's like my family, my friends, like professionals I met along the way that are genuinely interested in like my milestones of success. When I post like videos that are more like small business oriented, the people that like it and comment it are people that I don't know that are followers that are like small business owners. So it shows you that not your followers aren't created equally. It's not like when they follow you, you're just a follow. Like what, who is following you is categorized by what they're interested in for that based on how they communicate to you and how they speak to you. The algorithm is fully based on AI, so it shows you if you're posting two to three posts per day, all of your followers aren't seeing it, which is why you have to post multiple times per day, because that's the only way to grow.
- [72:47]
B
I think there's definitely some room for discussion here because I think the one thing about social digital media is that the science is kind of unknown. Like every day you'll see an influencer say, this is the secret. This is the answer. This is the answer. I would lean in my trends more towards quality versus quantity. And you can use language. So the way to get followers is X maybe. But if your content's not good and it's not getting engagement, it might not work for you. The way to get followers from my perspective is to make, make a viral piece of content that's amazing. And then one piece, and this is what Gary Vee says is you don't need a bunch of followers now. You need an amazing piece of content that's educational and you can get a hundred thousand followers in two weeks.
- [73:34]
A
Okay, so you bring up a good point which is worth explaining. So the problem with creating content is the entry point versus the benchmark for success are very different conversations. Where you need to enter into the content creating framework is by focusing on quality over quantity. So when I talk to a lot of like business owners and like professional service providers, it's like I'm not telling you how many times per week to post. I'm telling you show up and make at least two really great pieces of content. Like just like actually plan, have a strategy and like just execute. However, once you're doing that and you, you, it, it does become a numbers game, right? Like you, you grow, you sell more when more people are seeing your content. So now for the perspective of where we're at, right, like we're creating content, we know it works. We know if you want to continue to grow, you then have to post every single day. But the content that we're posting every single day is quality content. So that's kind of the issue is like, there's a lot of people who have been successful. Like, the algorithm has changed greatly and it's like, much harder to grow today than it was four or five years ago because creating good content is just easier with platforms like capcut. So it's. It's kind of two interesting questions because when we're getting hired, right. By people, they're coming in and they're hiring us. That KPI of like, success metrics is harder to benchmark unless you're paying to get a piece of content out every single day. And that's where it becomes a bit more complicated.
- [75:06]
B
I think it's somewhat counterintuitive too, because I heard one person say something that was interesting in that go back to your last 10 posts on your grid. If we're talking about Instagram, which I'm not sure how much followers are worth these days based on how often I follow somebody, it's very rare. Right. But it says find the ones that got the most engagement with new people and the new followers and then just post it again. And where that seemed to be reinforced is when we were. I was showing you that hilarious video of the baby trying wasabi.
- [75:37]
A
Yeah.
- [75:38]
B
And she's like, help. Right. And then we looked at the account and it was that Same video posted 30 times and it had a hundred thousand followers. And all that account had did was posted the same video. Yeah, 30 times. So.
- [75:51]
A
And had so many different view counts. Like some at 8 million, some at 100,000, some at a thousand. It was the same video.
- [75:56]
B
But think of what the algorithm is doing. You're getting followers posting one exceptional piece of content again and again. Again. But is that aligned with the. Or strategic goals of your business? So what is it that we want to do with social media is more important. So I think.
- [76:10]
A
But. Okay. Yeah, but I, I want to, I do want to clarify though, something and you're not wrong. The issue with social media today is that you shouldn't be focusing on how many followers you have because the. Think about how many people are you're following per week. You like maybe three people per week. And if nobody is really following anyone, the ask for increasing followers is actually a very high bar. Bar. Like it's, it's really not the bar to. To. Because there's. There's more people who can know you without following you. And like, like your comments engage because like, the algorithm knows like you know who to whose videos to throw at you based on your, your viewership, your viewer history. But here's the issue with what we're saying. Creating great content allows for more engagement, more eyeballs, which also can result in more followers. So looking at followers alone is flawed. But creating really great content also results in followers. So the whole point of me saying like creating a great piece of content every single day or twice a day, you need to get into a different mindset and it takes time. Like at, you know, from this podcast, we can get 12 really great clips. Well, that's a post per day for the next two weeks. And we produce content at a very high rate. That's where we're at. But our content, when it's good posts and they go out, gets strong engagement and gets followers. So that's where it's kind of like don't focus on followers alone, but good content is in resulting in strong engagement which if they feel really aligned with you, out of every a hundred eyeballs, you'll get one follow. Right. And that's kind of where I'm saying is like they're not different benchmarks. It's just don't isolate followers alone.
- [77:47]
B
And, and in your content though, the, the algorithm likes if people watch the whole thing and too many people go on too long in their content. And so the algorithm, if people watch it from start to finish. Right, we've talked about that. But I think that's why some short content gets more followers because you make something short controversial and people have to watch it again to understand it. You know, you're getting more engagement. The algorithm is, is sending it out if you're doing long explanations of things. It's a different platform strategy.
- [78:13]
A
Yeah, you're right. You're totally right. And that's I think just like a really interesting. So trial reels though, really interesting new feature to test out. Another thing you bring up which is like brilliant is reuse content. So this brand, Havre Studio, really love them, love her approach to customer service. H A V R E And she's basically like taking really well made old blazers and like repurposing them so that they're like this kind of. It's really a cool concept. It's like upcycling and her marketing and branding is fantastic. It's just very well done, done. But what I'm noticing with a lot of these like recent startups that have like all these followers that have all these followers, they're like reusing content and it shows you that it's it's an impossible ask to just like, keep coming out with new content. Like reuse what works. Like change the caption a little bit. Like, give a new purpose to the video. And then if a, if one of your followers does see it again, it's not annoying because you're giving another reason to watch or view that content. So she's a good person to look at of like reusing content, right? And it's the world we live in now. Like, that's kind of the thing. And that's. You bring up a good point. It's like, what are your benchmark? What are your goals? A lot of businesses listening to this, like, if you're a solopreneur and you know there's only so much business that you can handle, just create really great content once or twice a week. But if you're a CPG that, like, you know, you have, you have sales metrics and you want to be, you want to open up two flagships, well, you need to be producing content at a different rate, right? Like, not all, not all benchmarks are the same for where you want to go. So it's where do you want to go? How fast do you want to get there? And do you have money or time? And like that. Those are the other questions too, is like, if you don't have money to be producing content and having people editing them, then you need time. Time. And that's. These are the variables that of like, there isn't a one size fits all.
- [80:07]
B
What we've said time and time again to people too is you don't actually need perfect. You can produce if, if the fashion show can use the phone to produce all of their content. You can produce your content with your phone. You don't have to spend 100 grand on a commercial.
- [80:20]
A
Boom, mic drop. Use your phone. So let's talk about principles.
- [80:24]
B
Well, one of my good friends sent me this book and it's something I do and I recommend it to anybody. Handwritten thank you cards. Nobody gets a mail that's actually handwritten. And one of the things I always do is when I meet people who I connect with and I want to share something about myself, I send them one of my favorite books. I just sent one of our clients a copy of the book Where Men Win Glory, the Pat Tillman Story. One of my favorite books. A very inexpensive way to solidify a relationship with somebody is to send them a book. It's so thoughtful. And they. That type of connection's not happening. And one of my best friends is one of the top realtors in the area. And he sent me this journal because he knows I love Ray Dalio, who wrote a book called Principles that I think is very good business reading for everybody. Not everybody's read it, but the journaling experience of the book, essentially it forces you to go through the steps of actually writing down what you stand for. And when you think of most people who are projecting or who are out there, I don't think a lot of them have really taken the time to ask themselves why they stand for things or what they stand for or if they're in this situation, what principle is more important to them? Fairness or compensation or this or that. And going through this process of writing down, it's just reinforcing to me why I've done things. And it makes me feel emboldened to continue to do the right things. But for founders, I thought when I was talking to you, founders should do this, talk about their principles because they influence their brand with their principles. They build their team, they build their culture. They focus on this element of the product versus that based on their principles. So I would highly recommend to founders reading the book Principles but also going through the journal, and we're going to do this from a branding perspective where we're going to help founders identify their core principles at a deep level, not just at a surface level. Because I think that really influences as a brand.
- [82:18]
A
You bring up a really good point. I'm just going to pull up what the book was. Okay. So I recently read this book, what you do is who you are. And it's by Ben Horowitz. And him and Mark Andreessen own that really famous hedge fund he worked with.
- [82:35]
B
Trump. Sorry, Elon.
- [82:37]
A
Elon. Yeah, they're. They're big.
- [82:38]
B
I'm going to look at that book right now.
- [82:40]
A
And the book is effectively just about how important culture is in terms of success. And you bring up such a great point of like really working through this journal, my principles. But that connects to the larger idea of just having principles. Because when I've of all these case studies that I've read, like what makes these businesses and these brands successful is a very true understanding of culture and having company buying to that culture. Like that's what attracts, whether it was the Ikea story or the four season story or the Home Depot story or the Walmart story, like what made these brands great is that there was a higher order purpose that the employees could buy into Trader Joe's. Like these great brands that transcend decades. And like we all Understand instantly that it's a great brand is because of their culture. And it's easy to say you have principles, but if you don't work through what they actually are and you don't identify them, it's just. It's words without meaning.
- [83:39]
B
We should try to get Ray Dalio on the podcast to talk about, because I actually think there's something really core here nobody's talked about, because when you read these books retroactively, you can see that the. The business owners succeeded because they stuck to principles that they knew or didn't know, but they. But I think there's probably a lot of founders out there who had principles, didn't articulate them properly. Properly, and maybe have wandered off that path and didn't reach the success they could have. So, like, understanding your principles earlier might.
- [84:07]
A
Make your success quicker or just it just more realized. Like, that's like. It was really interesting. I was on site for one of our brands a week ago, and, like, a perfect example of this, you know, the brand grew really quickly, made dealing, you know, tons of millions of dollars. They were really killing it. They had this, like, built in community, this, like, wicked tribe. People really loved this brand, and their sales are down, and they're kind of like, you know, what's going on? And it was like, I kind of looked at it and it was so simple. I'm like, well, what's changed? And they explained and like, we're not reposting stories from our customers anymore. And we're not, like, we're not showcasing who buys our products. And they were giving, like, all these other reasons. Like, you know, there's only so much that you people can buy from our brand. And I'm like, yeah, or you forgot about who built you guys, you know, and it's. And it goes back to, like, if those are the original principles that were, like, what. That the founder was so focused on. She was like, I was responding to every single dm. I was literally responding to every single message that came in. And I was like, she's like, you know, that took me three hours a night. I can't do that anymore. I'm like, well, you can't do that anymore. But, like, could you pay someone to.
- [85:25]
B
Do that or you could delegate something else? Because our. Our executive minds think that's below us once we get to a certain level. But if that's the thing that actually matters, like, it might be if that.
- [85:37]
A
Was the millions of dollars a difference, if you kept doing it, it's worth your time.
- [85:42]
B
Yeah.
- [85:42]
A
Or but it's also Akiva, that's another question though too is like oftentimes it's like it's just cut. Like they just stop doing it. Like they didn't try bringing in a salaried person at, at $50,000 that can do two things. Like it could be customer service and could respond to like you can add that to someone's job. And like it's just when you think about like really just drilling down on what your principles are and what the time cost is to reignite what your original principles were in a business when you were like a team of two or a team of one. It's easy to have principles when you're a one person show, but it's hard to execute those principles when you start to scale and grow. So it's such a great exercise.
- [86:19]
B
This is, is the strategic thinking that's missing just from that scenario. So your company was built and became very valuable because you responded to all your clients just on your computer. Then you get busy. It's like I'm too busy to do that as opposed to thinking if that was the force multiplier that got me to grow, why not use digital to film me responding to my clients? So then it's now a shareable moment. So now it's got that value because now it's amplified. Now people can actually see what you're doing. But that type of thinking is missing in a lot of how we approach marketing strategy. But shout out to Justin for sending me that book. Amazing book, really value it. And I will send that to a.
- [86:55]
A
Bunch of other people and I would love to hear your guys feedback of what you guys think about this framework, what you like, what you don't like and continuing. Obviously not just the first one, but if we try this for a few weeks.
- [87:06]
B
Suggestions for hot or not comments like.
- [87:09]
A
Follow subscribers and subscribe some brand audits in the loop. So get me your brand.