Matilda Djerf Scandal: Do Powerful CEOs Need to Be Likable?

Summary

Summary of "Matilda Djerf Scandal: Do Powerful CEOs Need to Be Likable?"

Podcast: The Art of the Brand
Host: Third Eye Insights (Camille Moore and Phillip Millar)
Episode Release Date: January 2, 2025

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1. Introduction to the Discussion

In this episode, Camille Moore and Phillip Millar delve into the controversy surrounding Matilda Djerf, a prominent Swedish influencer and entrepreneur. The conversation explores whether powerful CEOs and brand leaders need to prioritize likability over effectiveness and high standards.

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2. Understanding Brand and Taste in Leadership

Sarah emphasizes the critical role of design and taste in business success:

"Founders who have become really successful often have a very good sense of taste at one level. Sometimes you need a combination or somebody on your team that understands the importance of design."
[00:17]

Jessica concurs, highlighting the subjective nature of taste and the challenge it presents:

"Taste is subjective. It's the hardest part about our job because when you're an expert, it's often hard to explain why it will work."
[00:51]

The hosts discuss how impeccable taste contributes to the creation of exceptional products and brands, referencing Steve Jobs' perfectionism as a benchmark.

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3. The Matilda Djerf Scandal Explained

Jessica introduces Matilda Djerf, noting her success and the recent backlash:

"She's one of the biggest influencers in the world... she has amassed over $35 million."
[01:47]

However, accusations have emerged from former employees describing a demanding and hostile work environment. This brings into question the balance between maintaining high standards and being a likable leader.

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4. Likable vs. Effective Leadership

Sarah and Jessica debate the necessity of likability in leadership. Sarah argues that leaders need to be respected rather than liked to drive excellence:

"It's better to be feared than liked. People who are feared are respected."
[04:33]

Jessica adds that exceptional leaders often do not prioritize being liked, using Steve Jobs as an example:

"Steve Jobs wasn't likable, but he developed a fantastic product."
[03:32]

They conclude that high-performing leaders may sacrifice likability to achieve outstanding results, a trait seen in both Matilda Djerf and iconic figures like Anna Wintour.

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5. Lessons for Founders and Leaders

The hosts offer insights for current and aspiring leaders on maintaining high standards:

• Demand Excellence: Sarah advises leaders to push their teams to deliver their best work:

  "Ask them, 'Do you think that's the absolute best you could do?' and push for continuous improvement."
  [17:18]

• Embrace Tough Standards: Jessica stresses the importance of hiring the right people and investing in quality teams:

  "You gotta pay them well. If you're paying people peanuts, you're just going to get monkeys."
  [18:26]

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6. The Role of PR in Managing Scandals

The discussion touches on the pitfalls of poor PR strategies in the wake of scandals:

• Jessica criticizes Matilda Djerf's PR response, suggesting she should have remained silent:

  "She probably should have waited for it to blow over rather than engaging."
  [05:38]

• Sarah points out that fear-based PR can backfire:

  "If you're trying to say, 'I'm sorry you didn't fit in,' it doesn't address the root issue."
  [09:35]

Effective PR, they argue, should align with the brand's core values and target audience without compromising leadership standards.

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7. Building and Maintaining High-Performance Teams

The conversation highlights challenges in team dynamics, especially in influencer-led businesses:

• Jessica notes that influencer-led companies may struggle to offer equitable ownership or incentives:

  "They're not offering anything else, so their team members are temporary and may use their association for personal gain."
  [15:13]

• Sarah emphasizes the importance of building a loyal team that aligns with the founder's vision:

  "You need people who care with you and will fight and die with you."
  [12:38]

They discuss strategies for fostering commitment and ensuring team members are motivated beyond superficial rewards.

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8. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

The episode concludes with reflections on the balance between achieving business excellence and maintaining a positive personal image. The hosts reiterate that while high standards and effective leadership may alienate some, they are often essential for building successful and enduring brands.

Key Takeaways:

• High Standards Over Likability: Effective leadership often requires prioritizing excellence over being universally liked.
• Strategic PR Management: Handling scandals requires thoughtful PR strategies that align with brand values without compromising leadership integrity.
• Invest in Quality Teams: Building a dedicated and competent team is crucial for long-term business success.
• Adaptability in Leadership: Leaders must navigate the complexities of modern branding while staying true to their vision and standards.

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Notable Quotes:

• Sarah: "It's better to be feared than liked."
  [04:33]

• Jessica: "Steve Jobs wasn't likable, but he developed a fantastic product."
  [03:32]

• Sarah: "You need people who care with you and will fight and die with you."
  [12:38]

• Jessica: "You gotta pay them well. If you're paying people peanuts, you're just going to get monkeys."
  [18:26]

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This episode provides a candid exploration of the challenges faced by powerful CEOs and brand leaders in balancing high standards with personal likability. Through the lens of Matilda Djerf's scandal, listeners gain valuable insights into effective leadership, team building, and PR management in the competitive landscape of modern branding.

Transcript

[Jessica]

It's a sad reality of Gen Z's and Millennials is that they want the thing without doing the work.

[Michael]

What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand. Say it again now. What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand.

[Sarah]

I was listening to my favorite podcast, the all in podcast, which has four very successful individuals on there who built billion dollar companies and they talk frankly about things. But what I'm amazed is that founders who have become really successful, they often very good sense of taste at one level. And so you can be technically a genius and not get over the hump into the next level. So sometimes you need a combination or somebody on your team that understands the importance of design. I don't think we talk about design and taste enough in terms of how it affects success.

[Jessica]

You know, taste is subjective. It's the hardest part about our job because when you're an expert, it's. It's often hard to explain why it will work. You know, why this tweak will be the difference. You know, why something about their brand is currently wrong. You know, like they might like it, but like why the color palette or the way that the font is positioned or the art of the logo, what it evokes might be different than what we're trying to achieve. And I really loved your takeaway from that podcast and that the problem with where Apple is now is that it lacks that tastemaker. You know, like Steve Jobs had impeccable taste and he was a tyrant when it came to perfection. And when you leave, just like an.

[Sarah]

Artist is, you know, like an artist will rip apart a gorgeous painting because it's not perfect. And that's what's missing in businesses that are run by CEOs.

[Jessica]

And it's also why I wanted to do a touch on the Matilda Jerf drama right now. Cause I think it also ties into taste. She is that Scandinavian. She's like a Swedish influencer, one of the biggest influencers in the world. She's 24. She started a business off of her platform, already amassed over $35 million. She is an absolute example of exemplary success. And she's being torn down right now because there's past employees that have come out that have said that she runs a very type ship, she's very demanding, and she runs a hostile environment. And it comes down to what, how to operate and succeed at the highest level. Like, they're often not likable people because they have a vision. Like they've got great taste and they can Execute and they're not patient or looking to make friends. And it's a really interesting conversation.

[Sarah]

You know, from a business advice, as a founder, you know, it's a fine line between being a tyrant who's not skilled and you're just a prick, as opposed to being somebody who is, who is passionate about excellence. Like Elon Musk could not build Tesla by running a popularity contest. And if you're a female who wants to kill it, you have to have very high standards. And I learned from a mentor of mine saying, you know, being a dynamic leader means pissing people off because you're gonna ask mediocre people to raise their standards, and they already think it's good enough. And so if you have the audacity to believe in something and want to create something amazing, and you're prepared to put in the hours that nobody else will, and you demand something from your employees and they don't like it, they might take the social media and say, oh, my God, you're mean to me. Or you're, you know, they'll try to tear you down. And I think when you were talking about it, I think it's important to share that, especially for females who are, who are forcing to do great things. Like, you're gonna piss people off.

[Jessica]

You have to. And you have to be prepared to, regardless of gender. Like, when you're doing something exceptional and you're breaking through average, you have to demand more from the people around you because you can't do everything your. And it goes back to the issue with Apple. Like, Apple is on the decline because it's lost their tyrannical leader. And Steve Jobs wasn't likable, but he developed a fantastic product. And it's. We don't have to like her. Like, we. What made, what's made her famous is that she curates and puts together beautiful images. It was never about really her personality. It was about her style, her taste, her approach to execution. And it was done at the highest level. She's the most followed person. Like, you have to have extremely tough standards. You can't say, like, she's easygoing. It was an amazing place to work. It was super. Like, it's about her. Her brand is called Jerf Avenue. Her last name is Jerf. Like, it is the Matilda Jerf Show.

[Sarah]

One of the rules that I had written a while ago is it's better to be feared than liked. People don't respect people they like necessarily. They take advantage of people they like.

[David]

Right?

[Sarah]

But to be feared is to be respected.

[David]

Right.

[Sarah]

As long as you're being honorable. And I've made that mistake in many businesses is, you know, after coming out of the military, I want to be a kinder, nicer person. And I was focused on being liked and it resulted in poor performance, people screwing you over. But if you have high standards and you demand that you're respected and that people fear that if they don't do what they're told.

[David]

Right.

[Sarah]

You will get disproportionate results than allowing everybody to stay in their comfort zones and have, you know, breakfast bagels in the middle of the day and chat, as you see. Like, so you need that driving force. And they're always going to try to pull you down. There's a segment of society that is going to attack success. Yeah. Wherever you are. And you need to, whether you like trump or not, take a page. Don't apologize for focusing on being successful. And what was sad about Matilda is that she seemed to kind of bow to the pressures to apologize for being exceptional.

[Jessica]

It was the worst move she could have made from a PR perspective. Like she should have leaned into being the Devil Wears Prada. Like she should have won. Probably not said anything. Like, I think she probably should have waited for it to like to blow over. Not give anything to the fire. But if you are going to give anything to the fire, it's, it's accepting with it humbly. I'm 24 years old and I've built a 40 million dollar company. Like, this is the standards that I expect. Because as an employer, like I've seen it not at that level, not at, you know, having people come out and being like, she's a horrible employer. But I've had employees be excited to work with us because we create cool content, we work with cool brands and not understand the territory that that comes with. And it's a sad reality of Gen Zs and Millennials is that they want the thing without doing the work.

[Sarah]

Oh my God. And the problem is if, God forbid, it's not true in all cases, but if you hire somebody from government or a big corporation into a startup, they do not understand the rules of the game.

[Jessica]

No.

[Sarah]

They're like, where is my safe space card? Don't I get three cappuccinos a day like it' o'clock. And I'm like, they don't understand that if you're going to build something amazing. And not everybody's meant for that.

[Jessica]

No.

[David]

Right.

[Jessica]

And that's also another reality too, is like, is there's definitely two sides. I actually think that she's not a kind person. But I don't think that she needs to be a kind person. Like that's what we, like, we expect celebrities or people of influence to be these model citizens that are like these perfect, amazing human beings that like are the absolute role models of society. Often what comes with that level of self focus, like she only posts photos of herself. Like imagine like if you actually analyze what she does. She's not a humanitarian. She only cares about making her name bigger, more well known and more successful. What comes with that territory? Absolute demand for everyone to make her look and come across as a, as a better business owner. Like, it's, it's not shocking, it's interesting.

[Sarah]

It holds people back because everybody is so scared of being criticized for having high standards, they kind of put a weight on them in the pool that keeps them in the mediocre. Because what I've seen in society is there's just a whole lot of mediocre and below average people who think they're exceptional and they get into a job and then try to insert on a founder or a business their standards of performance. And if you don't like it, you're the problem where really you're a glue bag who doesn't read, who doesn't isn't fit, doesn't drive the body, wastes tons of time. But you get yourself into the institution so then you can play the grievance Olympics. Like, oh my God, you're not a good human because you didn't allow me to have six breaks today. And so I'm now gonna troll you and try to make you into a bad human. And I wish she had had our cell phones. Cause we could have given her, I think some good PR advice.

[Jessica]

No. And I think a lot of founders need to hear this. Like they like. It's a very weird time, you know, it's a very weird time when you're being asked to do more as a founder. You know, like you should have a personal brand and like you need to be on top of like what's going on with marketing and branding and you're running a business and you're adding on more and more hats with the digital world and the demands of the digital world. And you're also being asked to, to do things that aren't conducive to being successful and what it takes for how competitive it is. And if I'm not condemning or condoning behavior other than you need to accept authentically who you are and if she is and you often Are at the highest level a difficult person.

[Sarah]

But the PR people too are I think are non effective.

[Jessica]

Agreed.

[Sarah]

Because PR is the worst PR that.

[Jessica]

You could have had in that moment.

[Sarah]

They're fearful.

[David]

Right.

[Sarah]

And if you really were just demanding, Right. And you wanted to get a team of people who fit within your corporate culture.

[David]

Right.

[Sarah]

Then the PR strategy is to say I'm sorry you didn't fit in with the team. You know, like.

[Jessica]

But not this I constantly have issues with. Because they want. They are so focused on the public's relation, which is where the name came from, that they're more fixated on offering.

[Sarah]

A hand tie that to brand. Because the public's relation or reaction doesn't fit the same goal as your brand to your target.

[Jessica]

Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah, yeah.

[Sarah]

Right. And so you're getting public relations.

[Jessica]

But that's where this is different. Right. Is like her target consumer is a younger female. It gets skews between like 22 to like 31. You know, like at the highest end like 30 is even a little bit old for Matilda. And it is a bit different because her target consumer actually doesn't understand what it takes to be in her position. And that's actually where it is a bit, it is a bit difficult. And why she needed like higher end strategy than she probably was exposed to because she is an exception to the rule.

[Sarah]

Well, because it's, it goes back to Apple when everybody is, everybody wants to have $35 million business deals.

[Jessica]

How do you know what that takes?

[Sarah]

Like how do you get there?

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Not just by being average.

[Jessica]

No, like by being like you have to be difficult, obsessive, crazy obsessive human being.

[Sarah]

Every detail. I'm not saying that's what you should aspire to be, but if that's where.

[Jessica]

You want to be, it's a reality.

[Sarah]

But we've, our society has gotten to the habit of tearing down people who have done something exceptional by sacrificing.

[Jessica]

No. And if you analyze what she's done, none of it's luck. Right. It's like that's what people miss. It's like why does most 20 year olds not even have a million dollar business? Because that's effing hard. Imagine having a multi international 35 million plus dollar business and you hired somebody.

[Sarah]

Who said they were a marketing specialist who had an inflated resume and they came in there and they didn't want to put in the work and you said you suck at the. Out of my office. Excuse my language. And they're like oh my God, she's toxic. Because they want to.

[Jessica]

I hated it. I'd never like.

[Sarah]

It's like you should see what she did in the morning.

[Jessica]

But that's why the Devil Wears Prada is an iconic movie Is like to do what Anna Wintour did is, does not make her likable because she didn't care about being liked. But Anna Wintour didn't apologize, which is a very relevant difference, which is why she should have got different strategy.

[Sarah]

And I would like to, to put an addendum to that, to this lesson learned for the audience too. Because I think what's great about our platform is we give different perspectives. Old, young, masculine, feminine, founder, CEO. But if you're a founder, I wonder especially if you're a younger founder or you might not be into war movies, but there's a movie called, it's a Shakespeare play called Henry V. But the version with Kenneth Branagh, he gives a speech called St. Crispin's Day. And it's worth watching it. I've shown it to a lot of our businesses. But if you're a founder, that's really what you are. You know, you're outnumbered, you're outgunned, you've got everything invested into your business and you need people who will rally around your cause to be with you. And he invited people to leave who didn't want to be there.

[David]

Right.

[Sarah]

And his message at the end is that men will hold their pride in shame who did not stand with us on St. Crispin's Day. It's a beautiful piece to remind ourselves of what inspires people. But if you are a founder trying to get there, you know, you're not going to change people who don't care. You're not going to make them care. You got to find the people who care with you and, and will fight and die with you.

[Jessica]

You know though I, I do think is an. Is a relevant difference though for like the Elon's and the Steve Jobs, you know and, and the Sergey Brins, you know, like the standard that they expect. And I also have seen this and this is an interesting alternative opinion is that a lot of these beauty and fashion and like influencers, individuals that build very respectable and incredible businesses, they forget also what it takes to get that group buy in. And the tech companies are not confused that you give away stock and equity like you actually do give something so that the buy in is different. I do find what's really interesting with these like, especially like hyper female brands is that there's a lot of, there's a lot of interest of young individuals wanting to work for you because of like everybody knows the brand and it seems like a really good stepping stone for your career. But when you're actually not offering something for them and they just are constantly seeing how fabulous your life looks online, it doesn't result in what you're looking to achieve. And because these businesses, I want to say they're not real businesses, not because they're not real businesses, but everything that's built on its success is the community that's been built through the influencers followings. So she wouldn't have had a $40 million brand if it wasn't built off of her having 3 million followers and like being known by every Gen Z in the world. You know, like, like that's on Instagram, like so it's like it's, there are these very difficult models and we've worked with many businesses that are like this where the influencer leader isn't likable but also isn't giving that buy in where they see that greater vision because they're not getting a piece of the pie. So it's, it is this really interesting dynamic of extremely successful individual. There's like quasi narcissism that's there because all that they do is like market themselves and then it's very difficult for them to get into that kind of like Google status because they're not giving any of it away. So it is like a separate interesting problem and it's like that's where they actually need good strategy like operationally and business wise so that they can avoid these PR catastrophes because it's happening.

[Sarah]

Just being aware though that some people are going to come to you because they want to use your success to build their success. And so they're temporary.

[Jessica]

No, but that's the only reason why they're coming to you if you're not offering anything else.

[Sarah]

No, but yeah, like if it's a videographer, right, Their brand goes up if they work for you. Right, Obviously.

[Jessica]

But you know, same with social media managers and stuff. Right, but that's my point though is they're willing to do it until they get that check on their resume. And for the average Gen Z, that's six months and then they go start.

[Sarah]

Their own business and then say you suck and then, and then use their relationship with you to get into the, into the discourse.

[Jessica]

Well, and it's bluntly, it's what we've seen, you know, like it's what we've seen because it's very Difficult when you're selling expertise and time to give. Like, it's not a product, you know, like, I'm not building a product where, like, we can give away, like, equity. Like, if. If it's our expertise, it's a harder business to, like, slice up the pie and to create, like shareholders. Right. And so it's something that we've seen. And I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I just think it's an interest addition to this problem of, like, if Matilda isn't prepared to give a. To Cipher off shares to the marketing team and she's not a great leader, and everything is about her being this amazing influencer. It's. And I think that's also why people like Anna Wintour have had such issue is, like, how do you create anyone to benefit from what an Anna Wintour can build? You can't. So you're just gonna have haters, and you might as well accept it. Because someone like Matilda Jerf is coming up in a very different time than Anna Wintour. Like, Anna Wintour was at the height of everything she was doing before people even had cell phones. Right. So you could become. You could be the same with Steve Jobs. Like, you could be a tyrannical, horrible person behind the scenes.

[Sarah]

Yeah. But it's. It's. People will define it as tyrannical. Like, what was it gonna say? One way you can do it to maybe avoid that, if you're a founder who wants to have higher standards, that I've learned through working through, is when somebody brings you a product, they'll do the work, and in their mind, they think it's great. You know what I mean? Or think it's good enough.

[David]

Right.

[Sarah]

But one phrase you can say is, you know, in looking at this, I'll ask you a serious question. Do you think that's the absolute best you could do on this task? The absolute best. And then you push it back to them, and the good people will say, you know what? I could probably tweak that a bit. Okay, go back and do that. And they come back and say it two, three times. They'd be amazed at how much better the product comes.

[Jessica]

But my only issue with that, though, is, like, we're just operating at such a different pace. Like, because now can clients can, like, text you on three different platforms and, like, everything is expected to be when.

[Sarah]

You'Re launching a product or you've asked somebody to do a test for you in your own business.

[Jessica]

But I think that's where product brands are different. Like, I Think product brands. If you're on the trajectory to sell, like, you should divvy up the pie in a different way than an influencer can, right? Like she. How. How does she divvy up her influence?

[Sarah]

I'm just saying how to get better product from people. Somebody comes back with the editing and founder is busy, you know, like. But if you really want to get to that highest level of execution that the person is capable of, you just say, is that actually the best job you could do on this editing? Is there any way it could be better?

[Jessica]

Yeah, just to your point, like, to get to do that three times, you know, like, how much are we missing?

[Sarah]

Because very rare. Will you get somebody who will do that themself? They need somebody to say, look, I like what you've done here, but I want to ask you, is that the best?

[Jessica]

But that's also where, you know, with what I've learned is you gotta get the right people and you gotta pay them well. A lot of business owners are just so focused on, like, I especially see this in the influencer space. It's an honor for you to work for me. I'm gonna try to get you the cheapest as possible because they just don't feel like they need to invest in their brand at the same level. And because they also have a lot of those skill sets to understand marketing and branding. But because they're so cheap, they get shitty employees and they get a shitty experience.

[Sarah]

This is where you can't afford to waste money on marketing because probably the number one factor to your success is actually your team at the start. And I can't tell you how many businesses I've worked with who try to save money on a team. And there's a reason why all the startups that really make it, when they've made it, they say the most important factor was having the right team. But if you're blowing all your money on marketing that's not working and you're paying people peanuts, you're just going to get monkeys.