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- [00:00]
A
My only dream leaving that meeting is like, maybe one day we can work with Nike. And it was so cool for how hard we worked and for what we've been able to do with social media that Nike literally flew us there to coach them on brand.
- [00:14]
B
And the point that I make about that is, okay, so you've got this great commercial where LeBron's hitting. But if you wanted to world build in your stores and you had a golf, a big golf department in one of your stores, put a simulator in for three weeks, show the video of LeBron hitting it, and then ask people to try and out drive his best drive.
- [00:31]
A
Yeah.
- [00:31]
B
And then if you out drive him, have pre recorded video of him saying way to go. And if you don't have him kind of shit talk you like, that would be amazing to promote golf and to make people feel part of Nike's world.
- [00:41]
A
You know what's hilarious? At the Safari event, the CEO and the CMO came up to me. They're like, are you happy? Do you like this?
- [00:48]
B
Securing a client, a loyal client. You have to get a vanguard. Like you got to get a beachhead into that client's world.
- [00:54]
A
Everyone I talk to says Sephora is going to the kids. And like everyone I know is like talking about avoiding it at all costs because they really don't want to be at like the shelves are pillaged and be at like a daycare. Bachelor cancels the show as soon as this footage comes out because it's has a bad look.
- [01:12]
B
Bottom line, I think the CEO probably dropped the ball here. They could have survived that and it probably would have been their best season ever because they put her on that show to be controversial. If anything, this was a gift.
- [01:22]
A
I just think this was the stupidest not only way to waste money, but to absolutely kill a franchise. I was on the decline. Lipstick lesbians have a brand backlash because people are like, why are we paying to be your guinea pig? Why are we paying for products that aren't good enough to be on the shelf? John Galliano, a famous designer, basically he's been announced that he's going back through the Zara archives and reimagining some archival pieces.
- [01:54]
B
They need to create some sort of story or some sort of world. And for me, having a couture designer come in, we'll put a story on the Zara cloth. Story comes from who's designing it as well, right? Totally so. And that's harder to replicate.
- [02:08]
A
What a brand, what a brand, what a brand. What a mighty good brand. Say it again now. What A brand, what a brand. What a brand. What a mighty good brand. This week we lived and breathed world building. And if world building is not on your radar, you are in deep trouble. So welcome back to another week of Art of the Brand. We're coming to you from Glendale, California.
- [02:30]
B
I'm fine. Philip Miller, the rogue lawyer.
- [02:32]
A
And I'm Camille Moore, the Internet's favorite branding expert. And today we've got a jam packed episode filled with what we saw this past week between being flown to Nike, being at Sephora as a media pass, some hot headlines. And Philippa has a really interesting insight, scaling insight, pushing you to create content. So stay to the end to listen to that. I'm so excited to get into it
- [02:56]
B
today, so much to talk about.
- [02:58]
A
But before we get into the hot topics, in case you missed it on socials, we were flown to Nike this past week and to talk about world building, which was a massive milestone and I'll tell you why in a minute. But before we get into that, we went to one of the oldest restaurants in Portland. It's called Jake's and it's been around since 1832. And I wanted to touch on two insights that we saw to kick this off with, giving you some insights that carry forward with you. And number one, so this business has been around for a long time. It's one of Portland's oldest institutions, old establishment, it's a fish house. And two things they did really well is experience, like menu experience, food experience, overall experience. And when they bring you the cocktail menus first they invested at such a high rate in having like gorgeous illustrations in a fantastic experience. And we had created a piece of content on this years ago when we were working with a huge restaurant chain that the reason why restaurants started doing those illustration or pictures of cocktails is because men have so much anxiety around what glass the cocktail drink will come out in. So by showing what the cocktail will look like increases the likelihood of, of cocktail orders by over 60% which I thought was a really interesting stat that we had learned with that chain years ago.
- [04:27]
B
Jake's is famous for anybody who's been in Portland, but it's, it's a local legend. But it's amazing the different, the difference. When you go into a restaurant that takes its brand, its story seriously, you immediately get a sense of what's going on. And in relation to, to some restaurants I've talked to, it just dawned on me as you're talking like why restaurants don't spend more on their menus when you think of is the thing you hand the customer to show your wares. And so many restaurants take shortcuts on menus. And this menu was like elegant, beautifully photographed. It made showing the food. I don't think businesses think the right way about where to spend money in terms of what the customer is interfacing with.
- [05:07]
A
You know, it's actually a really interesting point of what you just said. You're wrong because they didn't have any visuals of the food. It was only the.
- [05:14]
B
No, no. Just the cocktails.
- [05:15]
A
No, no, but I want to talk about that because what I wrote down to that we want is actually the dessert tray and the photos of the cocktails on the menu. And the two, like, nothing about, like, the food in the restaurant is fantastic. It's consistent. People go there because, like, the vibes are right. It's not like a super nice place. But those two touch points of the cocktail menu that's served to you first and the dessert tray that's brought to you last, they disproportionately invested, which changed even your perception of how you talked about the place. Because their menu was good, but it wasn't actually that different. It was a written out long menu that had like two recommendations at the top by the chef. But because the cocktail menu was so thick, was like this leather invested with gorgeous images. And then the second part is the other thing I want to talk about was like the dessert tray. So the guy at the end, I was so stuffed, we ordered a ton of food and I'm like, I'm not going to get dessert, but I'll look at the menu. He goes, we don't have a menu. I'll bring the tray. So even if you ask for the menu, there is no physical dessert menu that this restaurant has. The server has to bring over for you this massive tray that has full size real desserts on the tray to come, and they bring it down and they set it on your table. And we got into a branding conversation with him and he said, actually There is an 80% success rate with ordering desserts because they make a fresh dessert every day to put on the tray and to serve it.
- [06:46]
B
This is one of the themes I think we'll be talking about throughout the podcast is where businesses spend their money. You often have to reconsider your allocation of resources because I can see a lot of restaurants saying, well, I might have to throw those desserts out, right, because they're not contaminated. But you've got an 80%. He said 80% dessert purchases when they do it, because there is a law of reciprocity. If they carry it to your table, it seems like more work. They put it down, they show you as the explaining. It's four dimensional, it's three dimensional selling. And we're like, yeah, we'll, we'll share a banana cream pie. Which is hilarious, but the other element
- [07:22]
A
is worth it, truthfully. But you, but go ahead, go ahead.
- [07:26]
B
So you can apply these principles in your business, not just in a restaurant. Your, your customer interfaces with the menu, make it the best and most descriptive thing on the. Spend some time to write your story on the front. I read the whole front of that restaurant story because it was fascinating and it allows people to bond with your brand. And as we said in the past, get better bread. Don't take shortcuts on things. Everybody gets in your restaurant.
- [07:48]
A
Yeah, he said bread, he didn't say branding. So I was like, get better branding. I'm like, get there, but get great bread. 100%. You know, I actually find all the time that there is such a gap in where restaurants focus on photographing their dishes. I find I'm so thankful for ChatGPT now because I'm constantly asking for dishes I haven't heard to show me a visual image because I want to know what I'm getting like visually, what's going to be served to me for me to decide if it's what I want or not. But I thought those two instances were such a fantastic kickoff to why world building has been a theme of the last few episodes. And it's something that isn't going away. And it was such a perfect way to kick off our Portland trip because of a lot of the questions that we got in those rooms and the questions that were faced is like you have as a small business or a medium sized business, Listen to this. You have such an advantage to get ahead of world building because the big companies are like these hydra monsters that like, they just, they can't get into to lockstep. Like they can't organize themselves to, to get themselves into really what world building means in the current landscape. And it's almost these brands that have launched through the idea of world building are the ones that are killing it. Because the idea of investing in a dessert tray, like how you just set it up, I can't teach you that, like, I can't teach you like that. It should just, it should make sense.
- [09:14]
B
Well, you can. Like when I help scale businesses, like, I tell them to do that.
- [09:17]
A
No, I, I, but I, I mean, when I get asked like the 4
- [09:21]
B
PL if you don't. What you're saying is if you don't get it at that point, right. Like you need somebody creative to help you get there, or you're too far
- [09:29]
A
along as a business that you're not going to be able to get that intangible. And I think that's a big part of world building, is that there's this intangibility that you have to invest in the customer to create such a memory for them to invest in their worldview to a point that's so seismic that it takes them out of their current problems, their current perspective and point of view, and immerse them in your brand. Like, that's really what world building is. And it has all of the power for success, for sales, for, uh, loyalty, which is the hardest thing to get right now.
- [10:06]
B
I was just thinking about how much I enjoy reading about a business that I'm supporting. Right. And. But when you look at probably like one of the worst allocation of resources and time is the. About us on websites.
- [10:18]
A
Oh, my God.
- [10:18]
B
Right? When you think of how, you know what it should say, our story. Because people want to read stories, but
- [10:24]
A
even the stories are never written through the lens of, like, how the customer cares, but it's like, about them.
- [10:29]
B
It should be so much better. But I want to learn how, like, I like the story of the person I'm supporting. Did they struggle? Where did they come. Come from? You know, like, I love that it gives context to the products that I'm experiencing.
- [10:40]
A
You know what the best stories are, though, really? It's when they're written through problem matching. You know, when you understand that your story is written through the lens of the solution that you're trying to give to your customer. Like, those are the best stories.
- [10:52]
B
That's kind of what Jake's had. It was like, you know, we opened up because there was excess fish coming in down the river and all of the workers needed a place to work. And that's why our founder started. And then he. He was obsessed with quality. This that, you know, like, it really. They told. They told the origin story, which I think people love.
- [11:09]
A
Even like the dessert tray. Like, the reason why the dessert tray is a, you know, a small part of world building is that nobody wants. Sorry, nobody needs a dessert. You. You want a dessert when it's served to you in physical form and you're seeing it and you're smelling it and you're looking at it.
- [11:24]
B
Yeah. As opposed to reading pie, you know.
- [11:27]
A
Yeah. Apple pie, banana cream, like made fresh in House. Like, he comes out and he talks about each. Each one. And you're looking at it and it makes you desire. It, like evokes an emotion. Like, that's what world building is doing at. And so let's get into it. So.
- [11:43]
B
All right, let's get in.
- [11:44]
A
We were so I do really want to have the opportunity to talk about kind of this story because it was a really big milestone moment and you guys tune in every week. And I think it's special to share the journey along the way. But Portland was actually where Philip and I started working in marketing together. And it was really my first serious marketing job. The agency that had existed, but this is a public company and I had a chief marketing officer role for Canadian operations. So Portland was really where I was an established marketer. It was my first real job. And we were both in a boardroom meeting with one of the agency of records for. For Nike. And it was the first time I ever saw, like, a real discovery session. And I was so one. I was just so proud to be there because I was. I was. Is my first real serious job.
- [12:36]
B
It was Nike's agency.
- [12:37]
A
It was Nike's agency. And it was the first time I really thought to myself that, like, I could do this at the highest level. Like, us listening, we were taking notes.
- [12:48]
B
I leaned over to you and said, we can do this better.
- [12:49]
A
You totally said that. I remember you saying that. And what's cool is in leaving that in the journey of what, you know, it's taken the last 10 years and what we've built. My only dream, leaving that meeting is like, maybe one day we can work with Nike. And it was so cool for how hard we've worked and for what we've been able to do with social media that Nike literally flew us there to coach them on brand. And it's been a moment that's actually really made me quite emotional all week because we've worked with so many big brands. It's not like. It's not that that's the big deal, but what's the big deal is what I want to tell you guys as we're kicking this off is like, start creating content. There's so many established agencies that have been doing this for so long, but they could only find us because of the content that we created.
- [13:40]
B
I got a couple points. And not just content, but courageous content.
- [13:44]
A
Yeah.
- [13:44]
B
Because, you know, we were.
- [13:45]
A
We're hard on Nike.
- [13:46]
B
We were hard on Nike and talking about the skims collab, but it got people to pay attention and hats off to Nike. They'll talk about it. But they wanted to be challenged on something, so they didn't want to bring in people pleasers. And so that's a nice secret sauce we have. And Camille's story is bang on at a deep emotional level. It was amazing to go back there, like, over a decade later in a totally different world. And I'll just tell you, that talk hopefully will go out on long form. But ladies and gentlemen, she knocked it out of the park. Not only did she go back to the place, but she gave probably one of her best live talks ever. And the executives at Nike were just loving what she was saying. He did a phenomenal job.
- [14:27]
A
It really honestly makes me cry. It really does, because I'm just so thankful for the opportunity.
- [14:32]
B
All right, people might be bored by now.
- [14:34]
A
Okay, let's move on. Let's make it about you guys. But, yeah, so the thing that was really crazy about Nike is that they really were interested in us, like, hammering them. They wanted us. Me to come in. They want me to talk about examples of who was killing it. And they really want to figure out this piece of world building. And it gave me a lot of anxiety actually going into it because it's so the. The cmo. Her name is Kamari. She's awesome. I loved meeting her. She really knows our work. So it was hilarious. She's like, you've got a brand, You've got a good brand, and you've got a great brand. How do we get like. And she was pushing me on, like, really using the pillars and, like, the brand stages. And it was. It's kind of crazy because when you think about the most ubiquitous brands, like, you can remove the word Nike and you can see the solution in any language. Everybody knows who it is.
- [15:19]
B
Actually, we had a great point on it, and it's popping because we have the pillars of brand. A good brand, great brand, but within the great brand. There's a cycle in great brands. And I think sometimes we confuse kind of a monopoly or once you become really well recognized, people think you're a great brand because you're still up there, Right? But in that space, great brands can flounder, they can fall, and they can rebirth themselves. And it was nice to see Nike being very focused on doing everything they can to try and keep it up there or get back to where they were.
- [15:52]
A
How proud the, like, the entire team is, like, for the new CEO that's coming in and, like, them talking about, like, they're. They turned back on the fountains at the Campus Talk about the maxims.
- [16:02]
B
Well, the maxims. Most good businesses should have its own internal set of principles, laws. Phil Knight created maxims and I actually put one on my laptop. Always be on the offensive. And the seal had them printed out and put out on all the cafeteria tables stickers so you could sticker them. Right. And so I grab one. I love that. Always be on the offensive.
- [16:19]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [16:20]
B
But it's nice to hold your people together into a culture when you refocus on that and don't just focus on numbers.
- [16:27]
A
So the thing that's cool is like we give this whole talk on world building and then they basically, they treated us so well. They had us set up like a full tour right afterwards with one of their storytellers who picked us up and did like a full service tour. And it was crazy. I've never seen a camp, I've never seen anything like this. I think it's probably like, you know, when they talk about the Google campus, like Nike is a version of that, like what they invested in, I don't even know how long ago to build that campus because there's like three stages of building. So it's been around for 270 acres.
- [16:58]
B
You know, it's bigger than most universities, like in all, state of the art.
- [17:01]
A
There's like 11,000 employees that work at this, this compound. And what's crazy is that they've invested to the nines. They have like Olympic pools, they have basketball courts, they have simulators, they have rock climbing walls, they have full blown cafeterias, they have a j. Japanese garden, they have a lake, they have multiple running tracks, they have biking tracks, they have pickleball courts, they have tennis courts, they have. And all of it is only for the staff and the families of Nikes.
- [17:32]
B
And then, and then 10,000 people work there every day.
- [17:34]
A
Yeah. And it's. What's crazy is that they've spent so much money on something that the world doesn't see.
- [17:42]
B
Yeah. Like it was a point we kind of digested after because a lot, a lot of your talk to them was like you're not putting enough attention on your destination stores to make them a world. Right. And so your brand may be good, you might have the best athletes sign, but when customers are going into the stores, they don't look that different than 10 or 15 years ago with just product everywhere. They're not really capturing the world. And when I left, I was amazed at how many landscapers they had just on the campus. And I asked, I asked somebody there and they said we have 200 landscapers who work full time here. And then when you look at it from a business perspective, I can understand that, like you want your campus to look good, but think of how much that costs compared to what you're paying, you know, your frontline troops at a destination store. Because we went into the Grove in Beverly Hills and we're really under underwhelmed with the quality of the staff and the experience. Right. And I think businesses have to focus on the front lines, like where your customers are engaging with you because that campus is in Beaverton, Oregon. Like few people are ever going to see that, ever.
- [18:40]
A
Not only is nobody going to see it, but Nike isn't. Isn't a modernized summer Fridays where they're bringing a ton of influencers through the space. I mean compare that to aloe, right where we, we worked out on Friday. Shout out to Laura, Queen of Pilates. Queen of. You got to follow Laura Quinn on Instagram and all of her Pilates classes, I guess are now free through the Aloe Yoga wellness app. She kicked our butts.
- [19:04]
B
Not a paid. Not a paid. We just, we got to do that workout. And I can tell you this is the hardest Pilates work I've ever done. And I wish I was doing that when I was doing sports. Every athlete should be doing Pilates for stability and core. It's, it made me, it broke me.
- [19:19]
A
So what's, what's crazy is where you guys see the aloe workouts like the Kendall's, the Haley's, the Alt. When we were working out, Dua Lipa was there. But when you see, wherever you see all of the influencers doing their workouts, that's actually at Alohq in Beverly Hills. It's the old CAA building. So it's this massive building and they've spent all this money on cryo cold plunges. They have the best instructors, they do all personal training and they make it an entire shootable experience on socials. So it's such a better way to leverage that HQ cost to get like the, the influencer status than Nike that's tucked away in Beaver in Oregon. And it's, it's 11, 000 employees. They're investing in their employees. They really, they really are believing their maxims of like sport needs to fit into everyday life. So you really lived and breath saw the Nike soul in the brand on the ground. But that's the problem is that the consumer, when you're not on the Nike grounds and you're not getting the tour from Paul who is amazing. You, you're not feeling that ethos, that brand to where Nike used to be. Because the store experience is so far away from the world building that they built in Beaverton, Oregon.
- [20:31]
B
There's honor to the founder. Sometimes there's arrogance that we don't have to move because we are where we are. But if I was, if we were advising Nike again or another point, I would say replicate what Alo is doing in Los Angeles where you have like the biggest concentration of sports stars, all of your athletes there and like make the best training center there so that people will make content in Los Angeles at your workout. Like, you can build your world that way.
- [20:56]
A
You know what's so fascinating is Philip really had this core point of like, you really need to invest in your frontline staff because like when we went to the Grove and I'm not. This is not a Nike problem. This is sadly, businesses, you know, not incentivizing top employees and like growing them and like not having that Home Depot experience where you really focus on paying and bringing in the right people. That the human experience is missing in that world building conversation. And like, obviously that's important, but that's kind of like a more brand conversation. On the world building front is having an amazing store employee and store clerk is not really what we talked about in that. The core point of world building is that you have to make it a destination. When people are traveling to la, they have to say, I got to go to the Nike store. Because I've talked to 10 girls in the last two weeks and they're all like, I got to go check out the Revolve store at the Grove. Like it revolve. Opening that store is a clear, is a clear extension to world building. Having amazing employees in the store is important, but that's not going to get a family from Oklahoma to go to the Grove.
- [22:00]
B
I think you may be missing a bit of it there because there's no sense having a great destination if you don't have the right fit in terms of people. And what I want to do, encourage all business owners, Nike all the way down. Reevaluate how you consider your humans who represent your brand on an expense line. Because the people who work at your destination stores, they create the experience. Disneyland has like a used to have like this very hard criteria to get in there. But yeah, what I was saying is don't look at them like they should get minimum wage plus two bucks. Like pay them five times more, like invest in them. So they create the world in at the destination store. They're a vital, They're a vital part of it.
- [22:37]
A
But you can't justify five times more.
- [22:40]
B
I would absolutely justify five times more. I would make it a casting audition to work at the Nike in the Grove. I would make it a very. I would make it so that people get $150,000 there and I. And I'd have people, I'd have lineups around the street to hire there. Which creates a world, right? It changes the frame. None of the competition is doing it. But the scarcest resource in today's world are highly qualified humans who care about their job and will work that extra mile. It's very hard to get them. And you have to change the framework because it will create a world. Imagine if you had like the best actors. Everybody tried to get into Nike like it became almost a celebrity job to work at that place because you're paying this ridiculous amount. You can pay 200 landscapers to cut your grass in Beaverton, Oregon. You can pay that amount at the Grove in Los Angeles where people are coming for a destination. The last thing I'd say though, when you're a leader you always have to look at your policies because sometimes they're well intentioned but they fail. So at the retail for Nike, one of the criteria to get hired is you have to be availability. On the weekends they have an availability criteria. But what does Nike represent? Athletes. So if you're somebody who's a high level competitor, who's wonderful looking and engaging, but you're not available on Saturday and Sunday because you're on a semi pro team, you can't work there. But at the Nike headquarters they were like find time for sports every day. So at Beaverton that's great for their morale. So they can do sports every day. But at your destination locations where you need to be represented by the best people, they can't do sports the way they want. Something to. Something to consider. When you look at your frontline troops
- [24:07]
A
to say that you could, you're going to pay them five times more like you one you didn't clarify. Is it at the flagships only or
- [24:17]
B
is that at every retailer at the destination source? Yeah.
- [24:19]
A
And at. And then two is when you look at examples like Disney World or Abercrombie or. Or Home Depot where they had. It was criteria based in ethos based. It wasn't based on the potentiality of making five times more. Is that it was a badge of honor. There was a selection criteria for where to work. So I think that like when I Think of what needs to change. Like one, yes, you need to be able to be selecting the right people to be working. I think the availability piece is a big thing. But ensuring you have the right people and you're also creating interesting opportunities I think also brings more people in. Right. The concern that I get when I hear just that is also the cost that's offset to the, to the, the customer. Like if Nike is increasing their labor by five times, where is that going from a still a public company you
- [25:10]
B
wanna have a, who makes record profits and, and, and they will be more profitable if their destination location is 10 to 100 times more effective. I don't think it's, it's a very good. At a company of that size, it spends 2200 full time landscapers. You could have 20 people working at your Nike grove who are Hollywoods who get paid a salary. That's ridiculous.
- [25:31]
A
You're just fighting a hyperbolic number. Like five times is like I'm telling
- [25:36]
B
people the philosophy of how you line item your expense of labor needs to be re looked at probably in every market industry, especially your frontline people. I know labor is expensive, but people don't understand the long term payout that comes from having amazing people. They just look at quarterly. That's the point is we look at labor, it is the new scarce resource in the economy and the competition for good people is going up.
- [25:58]
A
You're making an extremely astute point. Like labor, like good people is everything. Like good people power great businesses. Because like having an awesome founder at the top and then bad labor beneath is like what kills. You know even in, in us scaling our agency, we've learned a lot about the people that power power the ship. But in the, in the larger conversation of world building, of where you need to focus on like all of the things that we were thinking about when we were brainstorming and going through the Grove, having good employees was kind of more of the brand box than on the world building box. People are really racking their brains right now on like what is world building? And what world building is when we were communicating it to them is world building is branding at full volume. So we always ask people like what is a brand? And it's always words like identity, a feeling, an idea, an experience, reputation. Right. So world building is all of those things on Max. And it's why when you look at LV and doing the massive Shanghai ship or how Summer Fridays invests in their community base and creates like sweaters and like wearable swag or Chelsea Park Sweaters. What you're seeing is what branding does at full volume because it allows people to feel special. It creates a moment of pulling out your phone. Like, for example, we went into the grocery store. I didn't take a second single photo. Same day, we went to the Tesla diner and I shot 25 photos and videos and I posted four or five of them on my stories. Like, what I was compelled to post versus not post is what is world
- [27:35]
B
building in the LeBron James building in Nike, they have. It was an amazing. So they have a court with the net and they have on the cement every place. He took a shot almost in the NBA and it's got the marks of all of his points. And it's like first point in the NBA, 10,000th point. And so you could really live what LeBron had did in his career. And so when people were asking about world building, well, why is that in Beaverton, Oregon, like, find some space in a store and allow people to take shots where LeBron got his 10,000 hoop. And you might be able to record that. Like, it would be good. That would be good content that would make people feel part of the Nike world rather than just going into a store and buying something.
- [28:14]
A
There's world building to use the full volume. Like, there's world building at full volume where, like, there's an expense accrued. And I do think that there is to a point in world building of like, you do have to spend to make people feel like you have to disproportionately invest in your customer. Because there's never been more. There's never been more competition. But there's also. It's so hard to navigate what's legit and what just looks good and is shit. Like, that's what I think a lot of brands are missing is like when you're coming up and you're new. It's why building in public is so powerful, is that you're showing the decisions, you're showing the humanness. If you just show a beautifully packaged logo and model shots and products and no one's heard of you and you have no followers, you don't know if it's real. Because it can be drop ship from China and you can order someone to design a logo off of Upwork and it can look really good for not a lot of money. So this idea of world building is this true trust factor that leans into it and you bring up such a great point in that one isolated location. There was like probably 25 of these examples in our tour. What Philip didn't explain is there's two things on the floor. There's all the gold things of shots he made and points he made. And then there's the black circle of shots he made and didn't get the piece. And the whole ground is covered in them. It looks almost like cells that are like multiplying. And then on top of that they have the milestone moment. So not only was where is the shot, but on that shot was his 20,000th point. To Philip's point, like it's all been mapped out. The data is there. Why aren't you putting this, this emblem that's already been sent to someone to get printed at a vinyl wrap? Why is that not being put into every single flagship store? Like the work's been done.
- [29:54]
B
People aren't aware that one of the the highest IQ of professions are authors. Right. Because it's very hard to create a story.
- [30:01]
A
Yeah.
- [30:01]
B
And world building, you actually require high level IQ and creative ability to world build.
- [30:06]
A
Yes.
- [30:07]
B
Like, it's not just great point, can't have an accountant. Like accounts are very necessary, but when they get in some positions they're a charge of world. But you, you can't world build unless you know how to tell a story.
- [30:18]
A
I think that's why I was being a bit snappy on the, on the like, on the salary stuff because like there's operational stuff, but it's this larger storytelling and creativity of. It's not easy. It's simple. And simple is it requires the, it requires the knowledge to be able to know what to pull and how to do it.
- [30:38]
B
Like the advice that I get just to go back, like, the CEO of Nike makes 26 million bucks. If you want to do something that changes the yardsticks, you have to do something dynamic. So I'm not saying that this is always the answer, but $26 million, like 1 million is 10 people who get 100,000 bucks a year to get paid. Right. Like when you think of it, you have to be creative. But the world building I would do is I would announce that we're going to have the highest paid people in the world in retail at our five flagship stores. And we're going to take auditions. You'll get people lining up wanting to, you know what I mean? You offer free healthcare, you do all that stuff to see O takes a pay cut to fund some of it. You've got like now a story. We're going back, you know, like, so be creative and tell your story in a way that's compelling. Nike has the parts like I really, I fell in love with the campus, the museum you must attend. The story gives me shivers. Like the books, the movies, the original logo.
- [31:30]
A
They have the original shoes, the truck that they sold. They kept the truck where they sold the shoes out of the back. Like I was geeking out.
- [31:38]
B
Yeah.
- [31:39]
A
Like, we got to sign the Maxim wall. Yeah.
- [31:41]
B
We're going to do a, a piece on the logo at a future episode because it's going to be crazy. But should we tie this into LeBron's commercial as well in terms of world building?
- [31:50]
A
Yeah, let's go. I mean, this there is actually awesome. They launched this creative this past week on socials. This is kind of one of the reasons I was overwhelmed. It's like their social team has really upped the ante. Like they're going back to their original brand. And they have this video that came out with LeBron and he's like golfing and he's an amazing golfer. And there's all these people around correcting on the golf shot because everyone wants to correct LeBron then also, if you're a golfer, it's the worst part about golfing is that you get a whole peanut gallery of opinions on like all the different ways you can tweak and improve your shot. And as he's kind of doing it, he puts in his, the Nike Beats headphones. And the whole point is like he tunes out the world so all these corrections are happening and he's, he's not listening to them.
- [32:34]
B
And the point that I make about that is, okay, so you've got this great commercial where LeBron's hitting. But if you wanted to world build in your stores and you had a golf, a big golf department in one of your stores, put a simulator in for three weeks, show the video of LeBron hitting it, and then ask people to try and out drive his best drive.
- [32:50]
A
Yeah.
- [32:50]
B
And then if you out drive him, have pre recorded video of him saying way to go. And if you don't have him kind of shit talk you. Yeah, like that would be amazing to promote golf and to make people feel part of Nike's world.
- [33:01]
A
Bringing up on that point of like the idea to take it forward. Because the way I want to talk about world building is how like what Nike is doing through their lens of world building is what's interesting about that video. And that collab is Nike and Beats collab together. So instead of them fighting for dominance on the logo, they both shared putting a logo on the left and on the right, which is like a Huge move for two really big brands. And it was cool because you're seeing this with like Nike skims and like with like Jackson Jacquemi. Like they're, they're trying to tap into cultural relevancy by not making it about them, but by sharing the conversation. But what you bring up that's interesting is another way to think about world building is how do you create content around the content. And that's where I feel like Kendall Jenner's at the. Is at the heart of like every example of this in recent times. Whereas he'll do this fanatics campaign and then they'll create five to six other creatives around the creative that amplifies the core storyline or the core point. So the Devil Wears Prada, Kendall being the intern with l', Oreal, it amplifies the movie. Right. So it's all how do you world building is thinking about there's this world and how do you create all of this hype and buzz around the entrance into the world? So think about whether it's like other planets that are floating around or other kind of amplific that creates demand for someone to want to buy that passport and enter into it. And the Devil Wears Prada has been doing such a great job for like the speech at the Oscars where it's Anne Hathaway and Anna Wintour. From them dropping that, it's going to be like popcorn purse holders that have like a little accessory on it that's like a take home. And it. So it's the idea, to your point, what Nike should do is they're putting so much money in the talent and the creative. Create additional moments around that where people can in real life engage with that creative concept to amplify the commercial.
- [34:56]
B
Yeah. And it takes time. Just like building a brand. It's like the best TV series takes four or five episodes to get into it. Because now you're engaged and immersed and you have connections you have. You have to have your target audience engage with your world.
- [35:09]
A
Bang on point. And that's why you actually have to think of what is the buildup and how do you build in public for whatever creative you're doing. Because if you're not amplifying the creative through multiple series or storylines, the creative is less interesting. And that's really where when you look at any one of those examples that we just gave, it's not even the Millie Bobby Brown, the COVID story with the content she did, it wasn't one video, it was several videos. Right. So you don't know which one's gonna hit, but you need to have this like storyline around the storyline to amplify what's happening. But the reason why, it's incredible. Put on your seatbelt. These big companies can't think this way because they're too big.
- [35:53]
B
No, they got committees and there's a hundred people who approve it and nobody wants to take a risk and they've
- [35:58]
A
got 10 other that they've got to get going out the door. And I'm, I'm talking in this room and I'm like, guys, this video goes out. It's. This wouldn't come across my desk because you're not amplifying the creative through this idea of world building and the whole room. You can tell they're all like, shit. We spent so much money on that a minute and 30 second Instagram video. She's so right. And here's my point. If you're a startup business with no money, you have so much leverage. It's why Hot Girl Pickles are killing it. Because every day they get their iPhone and they talk about their logos and their illustrations on the jars and it's. They can do things at a rate. It's actually, it was what I told Nike is I'm like, create a committee where you go through the lens of you assume you're a small business. How would a small business talk about this? How would they break it down? Like, it's never been a better advantage. And like, you know what's also awesome too?
- [36:49]
B
Just your work committees. They should really never be over three or else they don't get anything.
- [36:52]
A
They don't get anything done. But I was just gonna say like, when we're in the room with those big brands, they are the most afraid of these, like, young ones that pop up that have communities because they're so loyal and they're so dialed in.
- [37:05]
B
So true. Sephora.
- [37:08]
A
So Sephora. You know what's hilarious? We've like taught, we've like been like our friends at Alo and our friends at Nike and now we're going into our friends at Sephora. You know what I must say though, before we, we move into these three, because a lot of you guys have been listening for a long time and it's kind of funny for, you know, connecting with people that you listen to and then them, you know, entering into the, the evil layer. The thing that's cool about Aloe Nike and Sephora is that none of them are trying to buy us. They're not trying to like ask us to create content. They're not asking for us to like, they really appreciate that we're critical and
- [37:43]
B
we're constructive, but not trying to buy us. They're not trying to pay us to message for them. Yeah, yeah, they hire us, but they're not trying to buy us.
- [37:51]
A
No, but they're, but I, but I mean like even through the lens of like how many times Nike had me redo the presentation to be harder on them to be more critical, to be more constructive.
- [38:00]
B
That was amazing.
- [38:00]
A
Like, it even alo. Like they love, like it's. To me, I just, that to me is the greatest gift. And you know what? Even the CMO of Starbucks came up to me at the Sephora event and was like, like, we love your content. I'm like, we're the meanest to you. You know, like, and I just, so I just want to really just be like clear with you guys on that. So anyway, so because that's an issue
- [38:18]
B
in marketing and advertising is that a lot of the agencies are very, you know, they're butt kissers. Totally butt kissers, people pleasers. They want to, they want to keep the people in the job to keep them playing. And so but even when it's almost like when you're trying to attract a mate sometimes like being a little bit
- [38:32]
A
critical, a little bit hard to get.
- [38:34]
B
Yeah.
- [38:34]
A
You know, you know what's hilarious? At the Safari event, the CEO and the CMO came up to me. They're like, like, are you happy? Do you like this? And I'm like, yeah. So let's talk about it. So Sephora is kind of Sephora's Comic Con concept. I think it should be called Sephora Con. I think the name is stupid. But what they, they rented out this like massive building in downtown la and it's like three floors and it is like literally an adult's Halloween graduation. So you like come through and you're like given like a massive Halloween goodie bag. That's Sephora branded. And the first stop was Starbucks, which was hilarious. They called it Starbies and they had like pink drinks and green drinks and I was like, oh no, not for the kids. We talk about this all the time. Which I'll talk about that in a second because I talked to the executive team at Starbucks, I mean Sephora about that, not Starbucks. And basically it's like every single major retailer at Sephora, asterisks only every major retailer at Sephora because it is a six figure fortune to be able to get into this, like to pay your way and it's basically world building at full volume. Every single booth is each brand showing up and being its brand. And they all have different things to activate. So whether it's like carnival games, whether it's like photo opportunities, whether it's like meeting the founder of the brand, it's kind of like an expo west for beauty brands. But every single booth is giving stuff away. So the whole idea is like, it's like going to every single house in like the best neighborhood because you're getting minis, full sizes and accessories and presents from every single Sephora, major retailer, beauty brand.
- [40:15]
B
Yeah. So first of all, let's just take a moment to. To recognize what I felt as a 6 foot 3 straight man walking in there. I felt like I was, I felt like one of one guys.
- [40:24]
A
One of one.
- [40:24]
B
Like I was in Taylor Swift doing podcast research at Taylor Swift concert.
- [40:28]
A
He was one of one. He. He also will probably share how many times he got hit on was his favorite thing to talk about that day.
- [40:34]
B
No, it's not true.
- [40:35]
A
He got a manicure. The chick next loved him. Show your manicure by the manicurist.
- [40:43]
B
What I felt, though, when I look at it from a business perspective, like, you pay a lot of money to go there. Who's going there? I guess they want to get Instagram pics from it, right? Because they're all trying to promote their stuff or make a little experience. But there was just, there was too much to get the effect that you would want. Like, for me, if I was advising them, I'd say, look, take that money and create a world where your customers only experience your world. Because it was like, there was like thousands of like, cool places.
- [41:10]
A
It was like brand barf. Like, there was just so many of them.
- [41:13]
B
It's hard to connect. It's hard to. It's hard to be memorable. There's a little bit there, but it's complicated. Okay.
- [41:18]
A
I think the first thing that I learned is do not underestimate the innate female desire to get free mini makeup. Like, I'm not gonna lie, I caught myself in line a few times and I'm like, why am I in line for a Josie Moran mini body cream? And I'm like, but man, that bag is so cute. That comes with it. Like, it really, you cannot underestimate how, like, it. It was a full body experience. But what I kept thinking throughout all of it is that really how crazy saturated and competitive it is for these business owners, because the only way they're differentiating is was by brand aesthetic. Like, it was just Purely the visual identity of how it made people feel. Like, nothing in any of the booths were speaking to their formula.
- [42:04]
B
Like, except that doctor in the VIP lounge, even.
- [42:06]
A
No, but even Dr. Dennis Gross. Like, there wasn't. There wasn't core stats on the clinical effectiveness or, like, before and after or what you saw for 30 days. It was only on visualized world building. And all I thought is, like, how hard it is for these business owners to get ahead. And to your point where it really might be worth it to spend that money to run a parallel, to activate in a different way. But then on the other hand, what I struggle with is there also is something to these people living and breathing and activating with your brand in a real life experience. Because there. There was also a lot of brand fans that were able to, like, come and connect and touch and feel the brand and, like, take photos with the brand. And. And there is also a value to that when you're competing with neck and neck with these big brands there.
- [42:59]
B
I think there's just something that's changed in the makeup and skincare world where people, it seems less people are loyal to one brand.
- [43:05]
A
Yeah, right.
- [43:06]
B
And they're just buying their one brand they love. They just. It's almost like a junk food addiction. Like, you know, I've seen it in some people's medicine cabinets. Like, how much different product is there?
- [43:15]
A
I got it gifted, but research and development, fellas.
- [43:20]
B
No, but you know what I mean?
- [43:20]
A
Like, there's generous. I give it to everybody.
- [43:22]
B
There's literally a friend.
- [43:23]
A
I will give it to you. There's literally like, I am always, always accepting new friends.
- [43:26]
B
So I think people are like, they're just going to buy one of everything from all. They just love trying it. It's like their little indulgences. I'm going to try this. And it's a gift to themselves rather than a regime.
- [43:35]
A
You know, I learned this past weekend that a lot of the Sephora beauty brands are listening to our content every week. So I would give you this, I will say when I came home, because we got the VIP bags, which were literally £10 each, we will put a photo of Philip having to carry them out as he does bicep curls on his way out, just to show the girls, you know, he's. He's one for them. But how impossibly loyal people are and how really what Sephora has mastered is like this overwhelm that connects with, like, the female. Female mind that likes beauty. And it's. It almost is not at all focused on Loyalty, like, for how much? Like, I don't understand how you can go through a full day of getting literally unlimited samples and minis and then you're further gifted two massive bags of full size product to take home. The tickets were 450 for VIP. Like, you got your money's worth, but just in the bags that they gave you on the way out. But how can I possibly become brand loyal to any of, like, how am I? Like, how long it would take you to use all of those products is so hard for you. And also, too, like, not for nothing, when you're being given like seven face creams. Like, how much more special you have to be. Like, how do you be that more? Like, how.
- [44:54]
B
That's how I think the model is. They just expect you to have seven face creams. What I thought was interesting looking in the bag, just as an aside, is packaging. Because when they're not on the shelf and they're just all jumbled in there and you kind of looking through it, I think packaging, it matters more. Like the design of your packaging matters more when you look at this.
- [45:09]
A
Oh, my God, it's Matt. It's everything.
- [45:11]
B
It's everything.
- [45:11]
A
No, it's literally everything. It's. It's where they also spe so much money at launch. But, you know, it's interesting you saying that of all this stuff in the bag, I pulled out the Josie Moran body wash and I'm so impressed with the rebrand that Josie Moran has done. If you guys have known the brand for a while, it was like, it's been a legacy brand. It's been in Sephora forever. I used to buy and I've totally forgotten about it. Product was always good, but it was always kind of like hidden near the front. And it felt like an older brand. And they've recently gone through this rebrand and I love it. I think it totally has revived it. We're seeing Josie Moran more. I can't believe how young she is. I can't believe how beautiful she is. It's a complete different experience to how I knew the brand. And that comes with so much risk and they've done it so well. But what's interesting is in using the body wash, how incredible the experience is of using the product. Like, it's a really fantastic formulation and it really reinforced why that entryway product, like that discovery product of being something like a face or body wash, has been such a historic entry point for beauty brands. Because in using that product, it was such a low risk and, and that this is the thing that's kind of sick about it is that I'm pretty loyal to my face cream and eye cream. So I get these, these two huge bags. I'm probably going to give most of it away to people that I respect and love so they can enjoy it. But what I actually tried is the body wash because I'm not loyal at all to my body wash. And after trying and experiencing it, she is 100% going to get my money to try another product because of I'm now patterned to the brand through using it. And I want people to think in terms of really figuring out what is that product for you?
- [46:58]
B
When I put it through a military perspective, like securing a client, a loyal client, you have to get a vanguard, like you got to get a beachhead into that client, clients world.
- [47:08]
A
Yeah.
- [47:08]
B
So you might have whatever your business is, you might have your product. That's your, your hero product. Right. But that hero product requires some time to get people there. So always be thinking about how, what is your gateway to get people to try your hero product? It can be a sample, but you could make a different version of something that's easier for people to use and then they come to your hero. So invest in that gateway, that gateway pathway to secure that client.
- [47:31]
A
Yeah, I mean that's a great analogy. Let's move on. So, so here is the insight of the weekend. So I, I got to meet almost the entire executive team at Sephora and they are all females and they're all moms. And one of the questions that I asked very candidly was like, look, like everyone I talk to says Sephora is going to the kids. And like everyone I know is like talking about avoiding it at all costs because they really don't want to be it like the shelves are pillaged and be it like a daycare. Even yesterday with a client, she's like, I literally was overhearing nine year olds trying to figure out how to spend their 40 allowance that they got like they're being dropped off at like Sephora as if it's a daycare.
- [48:12]
B
And we were judging, we were judging them a little bit.
- [48:14]
A
We, I was totally judging them 100. I mean we've talked about this tons of times on the show about Aloe, about Starbucks, about Sephora. And I saw a face of like, yeah, like don't love this. You know, and, but a good genuine don't love. And they said, you know, the problem is that nobody's talking about and I want to give them credit for this, is that all of those Children's stores that we grew up with the limited to in Canada, La Senza, Girl Justice, Claire's have all gone out of business and there isn't kid friendly brands that are filling that gap. And during that time, content and tablets for Kids and YouTube for Kids has skyrocketed. And kids have always done what kids do. They look up to teenagers. And because teenagers love the makeup and teenagers love Starbucks and teenagers want to be like 20 year olds, you're seeing that ripple down to the 7 and 8 year olds and there's no one satisfying that demand. So Sephora and Aloe and Starbucks have unfortunately, unfortunately have to take this on.
- [49:18]
B
It made perfect sense when you told me that when we were talking, I
- [49:21]
A
was like, damn, how did I not think about that?
- [49:23]
B
This is why you need like second and third order thinking before making conclusions about what's happening. Like Sephora's gone to the kids somehow. This might have been a brand thing or was intentional.
- [49:31]
A
I totally thought it was them.
- [49:32]
B
It's an unintentional consequence of a gap created by Covid and the, the blossoming of social media. Get ready was with me. We should get paid to say this, but my solution is that obstacle that you're experiencing with your brand right now because people don't want to go into the store. So your core, your original core adults, they don't want to go into the store anymore to buy because there's all the kids there. We'll turn that obstacle into an opportunity because if all those kids stores closed and kids are doing all this, why not make a Sephora for kids?
- [50:01]
A
Yeah, like they called it Starbees. I guess Starbucks owns the trademark for Starbies and like why don't you do like a Sephora kids like, or like a call it Sephora, make it Sephora Con and call it Sephora. You know, like, yeah, and, and allow
- [50:15]
B
them to shoot some like, you know, you could really encourage, you could really, you could really, you could double your revenue with the kids by making a world for them to go to, not one that they're just kind of thrusting themselves.
- [50:24]
A
Well, I actually think that's exactly what's missing for Sephora because I don't feel like the experience is tailored to me and they, they don't want to tailor the experience to kids. And I think that's this like push pull that we're feeling in the brand is like, it's Sephora's run by moms, it's Sephora's run by women. Smart, intelligent, well spoken. They were a very Impressive team and they're not wanting to sell to kids. It's also why they've introduced lines like Sincerely yours and why Shay Mitchell got into her baby brand Rennie or kids brand clean kids brand, not baby brand and she got ripped for it. And like every parent that I talked to after that video and there were so many thoughtful comments of like the people who are ripping Shay Mitchell creating a solution for kids that want makeup and giving them a clean offering doesn't have kids kids because anyone that's a parent and every other kid at school is doing it and it's a nine dollar lip gloss or eighteen lip gloss. No mom wants to be the mom that's like no, I'm not getting you that lip gloss. So if someone can come out with a safe lip gloss for their kids, that solves the parents like constant nagging for wanting them. It is a hero in their eyes. And that's why Sephora's launch was Sincerely yours and Salish Matter. Who's like literally the most I'm trying to get her on the show because I met the CEO. Anyways, I just thought that was a really interesting insight for everyone to consider And I also think it's a credit to us maintaining and staying curious because they really went in with an open mind. So that closes the Sephora segment. He okay, so let's talk about the Bachelorette brand. So in this is from reporter Rose who gives us the scoop on some hot stuff to to cover weekly. So thanks Rose for this this I'm going to give the breakdown because there's a really interesting brand context here. So my resident Gen Z Katya has given me three phases to explain. So in case you've missed it, there was a huge headline this week with the Bachelorette pulling the newest season with a bachelorette named Taylor. And she comes from Secret Lives of Mormon wives. So phase one one. Basically Taylor built her initial following. She has over 5 million on tick tock as the unofficial leader of hashtag Mom Talk. And this was a group of young good looking moms. They were Mormon moms in Utah and they were known for dancing and they had Stanley cups and they do these V formations and they took off online. The brand was built on being very relatable and very aesthetic. They were very good looking women. And in 2022 Taylor goes on Tick Tock Live and completely blows up her own life. She's has this tearfully confession that she and her husband Tate Paul at the time were getting a divorce because they've been soft swinging with that good looking girls, group of mom talk and that now they've now crossed the lines because she's now caught feelings for one of her good friend's husbands.
- [53:22]
B
What is soft swinging? Like, is that like half pregnant? Like what's soft swinging this much?
- [53:26]
A
These are my Katia Gen Z knows. I'm sure the Gen Z's know. I'm sure there's hard swinging and they're soft swinging. Okay, if anyone knows, let us know. So, so basically instead of her getting canceled by coming out and by basically saying that she's breaking up her relationship and her friend's relationship, the Internet loves her because she was like very transparent and she weaponized her own scale in her own scandal and basically raw messiness is like the most valuable currency. Well, this blows up and they get a TV show out of it and that's what becomes the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. Which moves on to phase two of the story story. So phase two, basically in 2023, Taylor gets arrested for aggravated assault against her new boyfriend, Dakota Mortensen because her and her first boyfriend or husband break up. Police reports stated that she threw a heavy metal chair at Dakota, but it hit her daughter.
- [54:18]
B
I'm not sure it hit the daughter, but there's some reports.
- [54:20]
A
But anyhow, it struck her daughter and she pleads guilty to a misdemeanor because. Because she basically hits her kid. And instead of stepping away, Hulu swoops in and built a show around her. The show was a massive hit. So is the Hulu's most most watched unscripted premiere of the year. But the critical misstep is that Hulu glossed over the severity of the 2023 arrest. They showed body cam footage in episode one, but immediately time jump to her being pregnant with Dakota's baby, the second baby daddy. And so effectively giving her like a sanitized redemption arc because something happens, there's drama, police are called, but now they're pregnant and things are good. They're back together. This is where phase three comes in. Oh, actually this is a four phase endeavor. I'm sorry I didn't scroll further now. So ABC, who also owns Disney, announces Taylor as the season 22 Bachelorette, which was a big deal. It's a historic deal because she was never in the Bachelor franchise. So they're pulling someone that's notable into the show. Views have been down. Show is less relevant. This is the Bachelor's way to really bring eyeballs because Taylor's a very controversial, well known person. Controversial, well known person. People really hate her because she's always stirring up shit. People really like her because she's raw and she's real and she gives them entertainment at home. So the strategy basically is that people are very pissed off because they bring in someone that's not a part of it. It. Someone that is conf. Okay, I'm going to start now moving into phase four. I'm now going to phase four. So basically, in March 2026, in, like, literally last week, a new domestic assault investigation between Taylor and Dakota opens. In late February 2026, just days before the Bachelorette, the Sunday premiere, TMZ leaks the raw, unedited video of the 2023 attack. So now the entire Internet can see what that initial attack was. And Taylor looks like. Like a psychopath.
- [56:13]
B
Yes.
- [56:14]
A
Because she's like. The child is screaming in the background asking her to stop crying. She's continuing to throw things.
- [56:20]
B
She was throwing, like, metal stools at him. Like it was. The fact that he sold it at that point is interesting timing too, because he actually sold that video to TMC. But ABC had spent, like over 95 million bucks or something.
- [56:34]
A
It's over 2 million an episode.
- [56:36]
B
Yeah. To do the whole thing. Sponsors had been. Been booked on it, and so they cancel.
- [56:41]
A
Well, then this is the other drama too. So she. So Dakota and her are together. She misses the flight to go film the Bachelorette because she sleeps with Dakota, which is on the the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, Season 4. They're completely sharing that she's going on the Bachelorette. She misses it because she's sleeping with Dakota. Here she is going on a show, trying to find love. She's still with this. This bad news, ex, boyfriend, baby daddy.
- [57:07]
B
Because it seems somewhat ironic that you just slept with, like, your baby daddy to go on the Bachelor to find love. Yeah.
- [57:13]
A
Where the premise of the show is whether it's true, whether it's not, is that like, they're. They're trying to find love. And she had done all these interviews of, like, I'm so sick of these losers. I need to find someone. I'm gonna do this. And then so apparently she picks Doug on the show and there's this content on, like, tick tock of, like, the tattoos on the arms. And they found some footage of, like. Like that same day he's wearing the outfits. He landed to see her. And then now she's apparently back with Dakota. But anyways, so they end up canceling Bachelor, cancels the show as soon as this footage comes out because it's.
- [57:48]
B
Has a bad look yeah, there's some sponsors issues. There's domestic violence.
- [57:52]
A
Apparently a ton of the sponsors pulled their. Some did.
- [57:55]
B
Yes.
- [57:55]
A
Okay. And reports that I got from reporter Rose and Gen Z. Katya, can I jump? Yes, jump in. I want to hear your thoughts.
- [58:03]
B
Okay. There's a long intro to that great
- [58:05]
A
controversy context because I don't know if everyone knows about mom talk here. So. Okay, so what do you think about the Bachelor brand? What should they have done? What do you think of the Bachelorette brand and what should they have done?
- [58:17]
B
You know, bottom line, I think the CEO probably dropped the ball here and was treed by a Chihuahua. I've said it before, but he overreacted to some negative press. Press, press goes. Like Donald Trump said, you can grab them by the X and got elected. Like, they could have survived that. And it probably would have been their best season ever because they put her on that show to be controversial. If anything, this was a gift. And some sponsors might leave. And I understand that you just put a disclaimer.
- [58:40]
A
Yeah, apparently all like a ton of
- [58:42]
B
sponsors left, but you put a disclaimer. You know, we don't support domestic violence and seek treatment, but this is the episode live. And Ron, people would have loved to it, but they. There's going to be tons of lawsuits. I think it was a brand failure to cancel it at that point because they think they're moral. They think that they're above controversy. They hired her for controversy.
- [59:01]
A
I mean, I'm going to say it as it is. Like, it's trash tv. You're trying to bring trash to the show. Like, you're. The whole point of it is you're. You're trying. The whole point of reality TV is that it's a proverbial car accident. Like, you can't. You don't want to watch and you can't look away. And like, that's why they. They strategically picked her for this season. It would have been the highest ratings they've ever had. It would have had the most polarizing responses. People would have been so bought into the kind of guy that she picked. Comparing it to the two other baby daddies to the other guys that are in the friends groups. Like, it. To me, it makes no sense to try to be virtuous at a point where there was so much legals and so much R D that would have had to be done to that point. Point to then, like, how did they not know what the situation was? And of course the Internet is going to freak out. That's the point of why you picked the. The Mormon that was famous for swinging with other couples and like it and has multiple baby, like it.
- [60:01]
B
Just everything about it is something I said, identity crisis. But it's actually truly a brand identity crisis because they don't really know, as articulately as you said, that's their brand. Their brand is that you captured the brand. This turn of events fits into their brand identity. But at some level, they were worried about being criticized by people who were telling them it wasn't the right thing to do, and they lost their brand identity, made the wrong call.
- [60:24]
A
I think the other issue too, like, with this whole problem of second screen, you have to get into more extreme. People like more extreme characters. That's why it's like the Love is blind or like 30 Day Fiance or like, like they're just getting into crazy and crazier formats with more stakes and more things on the line because people are more distracted by more things. And the reason why the Bachelor and Bachelorette franchises aren't as successful is because they've done the same thing 42 times. Yeah. So, like, it's why they intentionally brought something in because, let's be real, TV views are down because we. You can't have swearing. You can't have profanity. You can't have nudity. You've got Netflix competing with you. You've got all of these things. So that's why you bring in someone that's a car accident and you do it like, and. And you launch it and you do exactly what you say is. ABC does not condone domestic violence. This show was. Was. It's. Exactly. It was even like the. The Diddy documentary where it comes out and it has, like, all of these things. And I know honestly, 50 Cent is such a G. Like all hail 50 Cent. But my point is, is I. It. I don't give the people what they want. They want to go home after their long workday, and they want to feel personal retribution that they're not as messed up as that person. And they also want to have a say in helping this woman find love because people want to defend her. They want to. They want to talk. They want it like I. It makes no sense. I feel like I can't say anything more on this. I just think this was the stupidest not only way to waste money, but to absolutely kill a franchise that was on the decline.
- [61:59]
B
Who's going to watch the next one? I don't. I don't even know if they'll make the next one because it's such A a it's such a brand confusion moment that you, you just. I don't think there'll be another season.
- [62:07]
A
I'm just not happy about this.
- [62:08]
B
CEO should be fired.
- [62:09]
A
So next one, we're moving on to the next headline. Lipstick Lesbians have a brand backlash. So, really interesting case study. So lipstick lesbians, a fantastic name. They're two women, they are a couple, they are beauty influencers, and they have probably one of the most powerful YouTube platforms. They do what Philip and I do, but for beauty. They rip people apart. They give constructive feedback, they pray, they do breakdowns, they do case studies. And they've been in the service of providing information for a very long time that they decided to get into the business of launching products. And they did it in a very unique and different way. So what they did is they basically got access to archive products and they're calling it leaked labs. So their first breakout product was this 4D malleable eyeshadow palette. As we've never seen anything like it. You can like, like stretch it, you can touch it, you can feel it, and you can put it on your eyelids. And the whole idea is that people will buy these products and they're going to come in like, almost like lab sample packages so that they're not branded yet. They're from their labs of products that they've been formulating. And they also can come from other businesses, labs that they might be formulating. And the idea is that it's kind of taps into this building in public framework work where the crowd decides what moves on and what stays. So people pay for the sample, they use the product, and they either hate it or they love it. And the initial concept is brilliant. I've known about this for months. Anthony, who does their pr, is a good friend. And I've known this has been coming and I thought it was a really interesting idea, but it's come with a lot of backlash because people are like, like, why are we paying to be your guinea pig? Why are we paying for products that aren't good enough to be on the shelf? And why are we in a position to have to decide if NARS who makes a billion dollars a year? This comes from a video of a. Of a snippet that was pulled. So I don't know if ours makes a billion dollars, but if NARS makes a billion dollars, why are we paying to decide if their lab moves forward?
- [64:19]
B
This topic represents a fundamental issue in our society because people are saying we. And that's what the online trolling community does. They say we. Right. Because they want to have a voice. Why do we have to pay for it? You don't have to, because as Gladwell said in Tipping Point, there are early adopters. There are people who want to try new tech. Right. And so if you're producing new tech, we aren't paying for it. The people who want to are paying for it because they want to give feedback. There are people who love that. So they're actually tapping into a market segment. That's brilliant. People are talking about them. It's brilliant. And I hope they're strong enough to not respond like the CEO of ABC did. Don't worry about the trolls saying we when it's not we. It's them. Like, they just want to tear something down. Don't listen to them. I think it's a brilliant move.
- [65:04]
A
I think it's a really smart idea. But it does pose a question of. It doesn't seem clear what standard they have decided if the product is good enough. And I think that that's where there's a gap, is that if the first product launch, people don't. Aren't loving the product. Like, they like. The idea is really novel. It's very cool in execution. It's not as good as another eyeshadow palette. How do you build a brand when the idea of you deciding if it's good enough and that we don't know what standard they've used to decide if it's good enough. Like, that's an interesting piece.
- [65:38]
B
They can tell a story about what the standard is like in this. There's an interesting story that could come out of this about how they change. Like, there's something interesting there for me to find out about. So I like the idea.
- [65:48]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think your perspective is, you know, when I think this is something that I really want to watch because it's different, it's unique. They're creating their own category. It's a really fascinating move. And it's. It. It makes sense for. You know what's really interesting when I was at Sephora, how much money is being put into, like, stupid product innovation at, like, the Sephora level? Like, when I was thinking about, like, how competitive almost all of those booths there was three floors of this massive place. They're almost all selling the same thing. How much R D money is going into, like, the foam being foamier, you know, or like, a totally new way to wash your face, which, like, think about, like, where does that go? Like, for how long can we just continue to pour R and D into just like doing new ways of things that we've already found things that are good enough.
- [66:40]
B
Yeah. And what are you actually paying for in the end? Like, really, you're paying for the brand, like the customers. Because I don't think some of the elevated brands are that much different, but I don't know how much differentiation there is and what the cost is, but people are paying for the brand.
- [66:55]
A
I'm not gonna lie. Really. When I was walking, when I was walking around the Sephora, I think they did a fantastic job for activating, for giving the Sephora customer exactly what they want, like to go and live and feel and like taste and experience the Sephora. And like all of their brands, like, they really understood world building and how they spent and how they activated that. They even had like a swag wall. But as someone that wouldn't have bought a ticket to go and was there, all I could think, and it, it might be my age, because I did find the people there to be younger, is there's no substantiated claims here. Like, nothing here feels like the product is first. It really feels like they're selling a visual identity, like a way it makes you feel. And to me, that's a very difficult place to live because there's always going to be new Alex Coopers or new Salish Matters, or there's always going to be these new, you know, faces and people that are going to come up. If you're not focused on how to differentiate on product quality, where does that go? And maybe that's not Sephora's market or that's not Sephora's game, but it is something that I was thinking, thinking that
- [68:05]
B
whole time there's almost different market segments within that market.
- [68:09]
A
Yeah, totally. So the last clip that I want to talk about before we get to Philip's incredible content creation insight is John Galliano for Zara. So John Galliano, a famous designer, he has designed with Dior, he's designed with Mason Margiela. He's got a very kind of clownish kind of look. Like, he's a very unique guy. Very much into like, like bodices and bodysuits and bows and it's very kind of like European, almost like brothel houses. You know how they used to like, dress with like the, they'd wear the bodice and like all the kind of fluff and frills around it. It's gone. It's got a sexuality to his brand. Well, basically he's been announced that he's going back through The Zara archives and reimagining some archival pieces. And this is similar to kind of Zach Post and coming in for Gap. These, like, these brand designers that are at the end of their tenure or lifestyle are kind of cashing in their big checks because we also had another one, what is her name? So this is like Zach, Zach posted at Gap and then Claire Wright Keller at Uniqlo. And then there was a joke that like Heidi Silmain might be applying at Aloe. So the idea is that once you kind of get to this point at the end of your career, you cash in for the big check to make these, like mass market brands cool. And there's been a lot of ripping and jokes on the Internet of like, what does Zara archives even mean? Like, what is there to pull from? Because the idea is, like, when you're at these designer houses, they're so obsessive on like archiving the pieces year over year. What is your initial thought of Zara moving into this? Do you think it's smart? What are your thoughts?
- [69:47]
B
First of all, I, I acknowledge boldness. So it's doing something different in the market. And they're in. Their success is probably coming to an end because of the Chinese competitors that are able to do fast, faster and cheaper and copy them within a week. So they need to create some sort of story or some sort of world. And for me, having a quote, a couture designer come in will put a story on. Those are clothing. You know what I mean? Like, it'll make it a little bit elevated. So it's not just something that can be replicated because story comes from who's designing it as well, Right? Totally. So. And that's harder to replicate.
- [70:21]
A
I don't know why Zara is getting so hammered. Like, Zara is obviously a fast fashion. I'm not saying that it's not, but when you look at the pretty little things and the sheens of the world, Zara is known as, it's a respectable brand. Like, they create fashionable pieces. They're high quality enough. Like some of my Zara jeans I've kept for years. Like, they're great. I love a lot of my Zara pieces. And Zara to me is that ultimate, like, high, low fashion retailer where someone could be wearing Chanel and could be wearing a Dior, but their jeans are Zara and like, nobody looks at them weird. Like, Zara sits in this place of it's not cheap, it's accessible, but it's stylish. And that's harder to Find in a day to day context when you're asking people to what Aritzia to be your baseline, when that can be quite, that's expensive for people.
- [71:11]
B
You want to always make sure you have as much information as possible before you rip on something. This couture designer at his stage in his life might want to be somewhere else because it was slow to make pieces in the past. Like, it was slow. You were limited, so you would work, you do all the details. But his cumulative experience, you know how there's some amazing artists that can kind of like sketch and throw and sketch and throw. He might love the fast fashion element to it where he can just design a thousand pieces fast and see how they respond. You know, it might be artistically very interested, interesting for him to get into this thing and just design faster pieces, be more, more adventurous. So I think it might, I think it might be a good sign for Zara.
- [71:49]
A
I think it goes back to the experience of me talking to a Sephora executive and asking a human being that works in that company about, you know, the kind of idea of Sephora going to the kids and hearing back an answer like they gave that was so thoughtful. I think a lot of the memes you see online is it's easy to rip apart, you know, a big conglomerate that's solving a gap. You know, it's, it's easy to call them trash. It's easy to, to pull a, a visual of a trash mountain and say, you know, what archives does Zara have? They're a huge brand. They obviously have an archive breakdown of styles they had and data they pulled. They have one of the best apps that you can use to shop. And brands like Target have done this brilliantly for years. And why shouldn't a brand like Zara, they're not ripping off Target. They came up with their own approach. And I, at the end of the day, every brand needs to find a way to stay relevant and get ahead. And I would be a hundred percent open to pulling open my app and looking at the John Galliana's interpretation of the Zara archives. And I respect Zara. I think, would I love the world to be a better place and for there to be like, less clothes made? Absolutely. But like, there's also a ton of billions of people on the planet that all need to wear clothes. And it's. I, I don't know what perfect ton
- [73:06]
B
of billions, A lot of billions.
- [73:07]
A
I don't know. Is it 8? Is it 9, is it 10? I don't even, I don't know, I don't want to, to, I don't want to do a shamwow, a Timothy shamwow onto the how many humans are on the planet?
- [73:14]
B
But like I've told you a million times not to exaggerate, you know.
- [73:17]
A
Yeah. But I, I just, I feel like this is getting hammered more than it's being praised. And I actually think this is a smart move for Zara. I also think it's a smart move for Zara. Zara did like a cashmere collection a few years ago and they'll do these like premium capsules. And I've bought Zara cashmere. And you know what? It was great. It served the price point that it was bought at. It wasn't a fortune. And after I wore it my 50 to 100 times, I gave it to my niece and she left it longer.
- [73:43]
B
Well, that's a double thumbs up on the Zara move from us.
- [73:46]
A
We love that. Okay, so let's, we got to the best part of the episode. Let's give us the strategy and the content framework. I've purred, I've hawed. I'm ready to go.
- [73:56]
B
This story comes from a conversation I have with my sister, who I love dearly, who is known as the insurance mom on TikTok, and constantly trying to encourage her to find the time to make content. As a busy mom running a business, there's always a reason not to. And I harp on her and. But this content advice, I think is, is priceless for anybody out there with a business because making content is sometimes the hardest thing to do to get your business going, to get your name out there. And I follow an individual named Chase Hughes. He's a behavioral analysis specialist. I highly recommend the Behavior Panel YouTube channel. And he dissects what really motivates humans in terms of the reptile brain, the limbic system. And it's not what we think it is. We're not thinking about, oh, the good results that will happen. So people often focus on the benefits rather than the risks, the rewards. So what I said to my sister when I was telling her to make content, I want you to go and put on your screensaver right now that my children's future is not worth making content. And just look at that every day. And even though maybe in your consciousness you don't think it's motivating, but it hits the reptile brain because it tells you that you don't care enough about your children to make content. And it will, I guarantee you, help you make double the content if you just put that on your screensaver this week. Let me know in the comments if that helped you. But I really want you guys to make content and get known out there because the people who are best at their job are the worst at marketing themselves.
- [75:20]
A
You know why I love when you did that to her? Because when you said it out loud, it was such a, a shocking statement that like instantly made you want to go. Like, it's so not hard to create a piece of content. And of course I tear care about my child's future that it's like you almost just want to like snarkly prove you wrong. Like how dare you say something so stupid like that. Like I, like there's way more, there's way harder things that you could kind of. And I think that that's what people miss is that you're constantly looking for like that perfect day. But it's so easy. I mean I can be tough on myself. I've been, I, I need to finish this book. I need to find the days to be writing every day. And every single day that goes by that I don't prioritize writing the book, it ends up being another three weeks of the book has not been written. And it's the same thing with creating content. So it's. You are only as good as what you put out. And the reason why that's a really relevant statement is that that window. It has never been a better time in the history of, of how humans have lived that you can put your idea out there in the exact person that you want to watch it, can watch it without you spending a dollar.
- [76:27]
B
Working with Chase Hughes was a life changing experience for me because he highlights that the words that we use, like even all the words that you just described that people have, it's all meaningless. It's the behavior. Why do you, you know, he can explain why you go for junk food at a certain point at night. Those words on your computer screen screen, My children's future is not worth making content. It will work scientifically on your brain to do it because when you read that you're going to go, I'm going to make content it just because you it. That is the, that is the human evolutionary that we are worried about the future. And when we say that, we say I don't want to be responsible for my kids future not being great because I didn't make content.
- [77:04]
A
Well, we are thankful that you guys listened to us for another week. Please send this to somebody else. Please make sure you're subscribing and you're
- [77:12]
B
following us because we're giving away good stuff and not getting paid for it.
- [77:16]
A
No, we do this because we love it. But just show us that it's worth us doing this every week. So I hope everyone has a fantastic week ahead. Until next time, we'll see you next Sunday. Near the bright Goodbye.