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- [00:00]
A
Nobody wants to buy your product. They want to feel like they're being brought in in a part of something that creates demand.
- [00:09]
B
Well, nobody needs your product. You want to make them want it by being part of your story.
- [00:13]
A
I want to talk about Alex Earle and Real Actives because she sold a million dollars in under five minutes.
- [00:20]
B
And Alex Earl is a beautiful case study of doubling down into anticipation. Genuine storytelling so people relate to you and then knocks it out of the park within a minute of opening the sales guarantee you. We'll talk to a boardroom next week and they'll tell us why they can't do it.
- [00:35]
A
It is the most profitable grocery store in North America. From a per square footage standpoint, it's presented as a grocery store, but it exists as a mental shortcut that allows the customer to feel good about their purchasing decisions.
- [00:51]
B
Erewhen is actually a psychological safety blanket for people who don't want to admit that they're not cooking.
- [00:59]
A
As much as I want to praise Erewhon for doing what they did right, I feel like the brand is losing touch with what has made it great.
- [01:06]
B
Hundreds of thousands will try out for this new people because the best time to get a client is when they're new, when they're young, when they're impressionable. The cigarette companies knew that long ago. So by having a competition that involves young females who are focused on beauty and making them apply, they're now getting fully immersed in the Victoria's Secret brand just to get a chance to become famous.
- [01:27]
A
What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand say it again now what a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand.
- [01:37]
B
Welcome to another episode of the Art of the Brand podcast, the number one branding podcast in the world. I'm Philip Millar.
- [01:44]
A
And I'm Camille Moore. Welcome back. I mean, happy Easter, everyone. Hope you had a great long weekend. And for those who had kids, hope you're surviving from coming back from spring break.
- [01:54]
B
Lots of great topics to talk about this Easter weekend. We should get into it. And I'll end it off with a little explanation of why Easter has bunnies and rabbits.
- [02:02]
A
Oh, that'll be interesting. I gotta make sure that I come back to that. Okay, well, let's kick it off. I wanted to start this podcast with talking about Erawan because it's become really a center point to the language and the zeitgeist of kind of LA culture. And I, from the outside looking in, it's actually just like a really interesting case study. It's presented as a grocery store, but it exists as a mental shortcut that allows the customer to feel good about their purchasing decisions. So, you know, we had that argument last week, Instacart. Erewhon's kind of an extension to that productivity argument.
- [02:37]
B
I remember when we had a discussion about what Erewhon was, and I said Erewhen is actually a psychological safety blanket for people who don't want to admit that they're not cooking.
- [02:50]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [02:50]
B
So they go to Erewhon to buy these very cool meals. But it's not like they're going to a restaurant, which makes them seem irresponsible, but they're actually paying the same amount for a plate. And then when they're in there, they're like, oh, I'm in a grocery store, so I'm going to buy some groceries. So it makes it look like they're going to prepare their food. And then because they need to assuage the guilt of buying, you know, a to go plate, they end up spending way more money on the products.
- [03:14]
A
It's a fascinating case study for providing the customer with exactly what they wanted. And it's fascinating for brands to study the success of Erewhon. So it is the most profitable grocery store in North America. From a per square footage standpoint, it does 2,500 in annual sales per square foot, which is 3.5 to 5 times the sales productivity of a conventional grocer. So most grocery stores make anywhere from 500 to $508 in annual sales per square foot, whereas Erewhana is doing 1800-2500 across its 10 stores. And the question is why? And the reason why Erewhana is so successful, and we've realized since we've been here is that it perfectly speaks to the psychology of what a educated consumer is looking for in the marketplace. And I think you perfectly broke it down. Explain what gap Erewhon fills.
- [04:17]
B
When we were discussing this, what I realized was there is a psychology of a lot of people who, because they're trying to deal with a whole bunch of stuff at the same time, I think from a self esteem perspective, people want to say, okay, I'm reasonable, I cook at home. You know what I mean? Like, I create a home, but I'm not frivolous.
- [04:34]
A
I'm not just eating out every night at restaurants.
- [04:36]
B
Yeah. And however. So going to a restaurant is more of a commitment. But what Erewhon did is create this segment of their grocery store that essentially gives you a restaurant quality meal that's healthy. That you can take home. So. But you don't feel like you're being as frivolous because you're like, I'm just going to go to a grocery store and get a bit of a meal to get home and then I'll pick up some groceries for my future household kind of cooking things.
- [05:00]
A
Yeah.
- [05:00]
B
And it's a beautiful. I don't know if it was a deliberate psychological motivation, but it really works because as soon as you get that meal, you're like, okay, I have to show that I actually cook at home, so I'm going to go buy some stuff. And then the reason why it's the most profitable store in the world, square footage wise, is because its stuff is incredibly overpriced. Like everything on that shelf is expensive. Like you can't go in there and come out without spending $200 as opposed to a normal grocery store.
- [05:23]
A
The reason why I wanted to talk about it, it's a fantastic case study for founders because on hand, the things that work right now are the products that are developed for the Zeitgeist, which is kind of an interesting conundrum because a lot of retail has not been developed through where the modern demand for the customer is. And that's why retail is struggling, is that it hasn't innovated or adapted to what the customer wants. It just keeps trying to do different versions of the same thing because they have an outdated mindset, because these are 20 year old, 40 year old, 50 year old brands, so they're not changing. When you look at Erewhon, it directly responds to what that consumer wants. It's someone who's busy, who cares about health and wellness and has discretionary income. And when you're busy and you're in health and wellness, you want to eat healthy food, but you often don't have the time to prepare it or to make it. So Erewhon is that perfect space between I want to eat healthy, I want to go to organic grocery stores, I don't want to be eating out every day, but I also don't have time to do it. So I find we're going to Erewhon for like lunches and for dinners. And I'm even hearing people say, like we were at with courting, we're doing a shoot for the tennis court. Courting. Shout out to Courtney. Her stuff is actually awesome and she's an incredible person, really well designed products. But we were doing a light shoot for her and the photographer said she was like, hey, do you want to go grab a drink? Or like grab a quick bite and the photographer was like, no, but I would go to Erewhon. Like you can tell that that person on a Thursday night didn't want to go to a restaurant but is prepared to spend the same amount of money going to Erewhon and how intelligent that is because people are like intelligent on her part. No one Erewhon's part. Because what they've developed is they just created the best product for what that consumer wants.
- [07:16]
B
Like when you look at going to a restaurant and you order a salmon, spinach, salmon salad, like it's 25 bucks
- [07:22]
A
or 32, it's $32 if you go to like a good spot.
- [07:25]
B
If you get that at Erewhon it's almost the same, the same price.
- [07:28]
A
But Erewhan, there's no cost saving.
- [07:29]
B
So the margin on that is the same. But they have far less brick and mortar to have to, to carry. So it's a beautiful mall. That's why Sammy Neusdorf is profitable. Right. They're actually selling restaurant prices without all of the expenses of it. But look at an era on next time you guys go in and just keep in perspective if you're a listener. Erewhon is kind of catered to to a very self indulgent population. Also like the LA crowd is very self indulgent. They spend more on themselves. They have more money than most. You have to find your own niche. But you've all heard like the healthiest part of the grocery store is around the outside Y. Yeah, but if you look at Arowan I've really cared about health. It doesn't have tons of fresh food. Right. The margins and the space aren't profitable to have bins of fresh food that produce that you have to kind over washed do all that stuff in Erewhon it's very much shelf based, expensive marked up foods that are, that are shown to be healthy but are really in boxes.
- [08:28]
A
But the reason why it's so brilliant, everything you're saying is correct. And it goes back to the argument that we had last week on Instacart that there is a percentage of the population that's small but has high, high power in buying and spending money on things that they don't need but they want and they've been told to want it because of this kind of more educated media. Right. The David Asprey's, the Gary Brca. But my point is, is like it's kind of, it's, it, it's really fascinating to study because it is that exact Class. But what's interesting about that is there's two components to it. Erewhon's become a discoverability retail component. Which is really why this, that this first came up is we want to talk about the brand death by a thousand cuts.
- [09:13]
B
But it's a destination.
- [09:14]
A
It's a destination.
- [09:15]
B
If to la you got to go to an airline to get one of their smoothies.
- [09:17]
A
But now that we've been like more permanent in la, there's two components to it. Eran is where I would go for brand discovery. Someone obsessed with branding. I would have to stop there. I would like to see what's going on. I'd look to the brands and I'd buy something and leave. You're right, it's like a, it's world building. But the second component, now that we live here, which is fascinating to, to expand upon, is the what would change retail is them simply sitting down and thinking what does the consumer want that they're not being given right now? And that's what Erewhon did. Even though they've existed for a long time, they've tweaked the product model that people wanted organic food fast. Like 40% of their revenue comes from prepared food and private label products. And 30% of their floor space serves a hundred thousand customers per week. So 30% of the retail environment is this grab and go component. The remainder of it is where you can get pre cut fruits and vegetables, you can get your, your beauty products, you can grab protein, an interesting bag
- [10:20]
B
of chips, anything grass fed, organic.
- [10:22]
A
Yeah, we went yesterday after a workout we went to Bunda, which is an amazing butt class.
- [10:26]
B
If I was writing their slogan, it would be Bunda so you can crack an egg on your butt. Like it was an amazing, an amazing workout.
- [10:33]
A
We stopped in Erewhon at this outdoor plaza. There was tons of other restaurants and places where you could eat. We decided to go to Erewhon because I could get us both customized trays of like three to five warm foods. I was able to grab some prepackaged drinks. I got like cut up watermelon and organic pineapple. And that was like, it's like a picnic lunch. It's like the best kind of lunch.
- [10:54]
B
Yeah. Except it cost five times what it would cost if you, it was 100 bucks. If you were to buy it from.
- [10:58]
A
It was the same price of a restaurant. But I feel like we've killed that point. But the cor. The second component that I want to talk about is as much as I want to praise Erewhon for Doing what they did right. And I do think there's a lot for brands to just study that there's a gap in what people are looking for and what is being offered to the consumer. Like, this is what Saks and like what Bergdorf should be learning from is to evolve, is to give the customer what they want. Be more like gentle monster. But the second component is that while we were walking in the store, I feel like the brand is losing touch with what has made it great.
- [11:29]
B
What happens with these companies is I'd love to know more of the origin story of who the brain was behind Erewhon and what that path was to get to this balance between Ready to Go and shelf space. Because it's usually a collection of deliberate good strategy and a bit of luck to kind of fit into where movement is going. But as soon as you get the profitability numbers that they have now, 2,500 a square foot per year, like five times the industry standard, what happens is that you end up bringing in MBAs and then the MBAs come in and say, look, we can make this more profitable if we cut costs, if we use bigger distributors. Why you like the idea of Erewhon is you're going to discover new things. But now we go in there and I see Pepsi products, you know, hidden under different labels there, getting primary spacing at end of rows. So like Erewhon, you were supposed to be the company that showed us the good products, not the corporate conglomerate products that change the name of a product and then buy your end because you're more profitable and you're going to end up losing people even though you're saving money. In a quarter you might get promoted. But the shitty thing is you're not going to get fired because you've hurt the brand over the long term by by catering to big corporations that have better margins for you.
- [12:44]
A
Well, it's interesting. So the story of Erewhon is that it started in Boston in 1966 and it was one of the original sites of being a part of this like natural food stores that were tied to like macrobiotics. So it was like a super healthy like in the space, if you were in that niche, kind of, I want to call it more like it is hippie culture. If it was from 1966 and it was in Boston, but then Tony and Josephine and Tochi, who's the founders that are involved now, bought the name in 2011 and they brought it to Los Angeles and they basically took a niche health food store and they turned it into this luxury wellness brand. So they saw, like, they reinterpreted the concept of Erewhon into like a modern LA culture. Like, basically they took it and why
- [13:30]
B
do you think they needed to buy the name?
- [13:31]
A
The name comes from Samuel or Butler's utopian novel called Erewhon.
- [13:35]
B
Oh, because I'd heard it was like nowhere backwards. And maybe that's where the. The novel came from, but. Except for the W and H. Yeah, but it's.
- [13:44]
A
Yeah, I mean, maybe that's where they come from in the novel. So basically the idea is that Tony and his wife Josephine bought back the concept and built it around what was, what was missing in the modern LA kind of ecosystem. And then they've built it. And then what started happening is that the rise of these kind of like CPG brands becoming these, like, big household names and being these status symbols of like, identity ended up kind of tracking throughout kind of 2015 to 2020. And then that's really where the brand got its like, tipping point. And then since kind of 2020 to now is to your point where it's kind of becoming like ruined. Because now when I go into the store, I. It's like just filled of like, like Kourtney Kardashian's Lemmy. Like, is that the best thing that should be an Erewhon? Should it be like PepsiCo brands? Probably not. And that's what's. It speaks to that the concept we talk about of like the brand death by a thousand cuts, that what's making the brand great right now is slowly being killed. Because every time that I go back in, I'm actually doing less shopping on the left hand side of the store on that, like, remainder of the grocery store shopping. Because, like, I've gone through the aisles. I don't find that the protein that they're offering is like the most cutting edge. I don't feel like the range that they're offering and some of the supplements and like the beauty brands, you can
- [15:04]
B
tell people are buying shelf space. The curation of Melan with Sammy Newsort is. Is he's curating what he's putting there. To you, like, as somebody who's. Who's committed to the cause, what I can tell now going through Erewhine is people are buying shelf space.
- [15:19]
A
Yeah. Oh, so that's a thing. So there is a listing fee. It's apparently $250,000 for your brand to be considered to be on the shelf of Erewhon. And then the smoothies were apparently like a fee of any from 25 to 50,000. This is all secret. This is private behind closed doors. So this is like speculative because you can't publicly search this. But that's the cost to even be have a smoothie be considered with your brand name on it. But Hailey Bieber's a strawberry glaze road smoothie was reportedly doing 40,000 a week in sales. Like it was like the amount of demand that. That road smoothie. So it. It be. What's interesting to your point is Erewhon MA capitalized on this opportunity of as these CPG and celebrity brands were getting into the CPG space and they were in la, they could charge for brands to be a part of this discovered ability because they already owned this, like, destination namesake. But where the problem is, if you don't protect that and it's just for purchase, where does that go? Right? And like, that's where. When I'm going through the shelves now, I can tell it's so obviously for sale because even if it was for sale before, I don't know how long they've been charging these fees for, they were at least doing a better job of the products that of the products that ended up on the shelf.
- [16:42]
B
Yeah, I was just looking up the name Erewhon. It's an error. It's an anagram from a dystopian novel where it's actually like probably the worst name to name a grocery store if you actually get into the. Into the novel. But it has a flavor that. That's attractive. Getting to that tipping point where you just hear everybody saying, you gotta go to Erewhon. I want to go to Erewhon. You want people to be using that phrase right now. I need to go to the grocery store and I need to pick up dinner. It's like, like, I'm going to Erewhon to get my food. They've really nailed it. I would just caution them to not lose their sense of purpose and direction by allowing bigger companies or big brands to buy space. Stay true to your customers who trust you to put on the shelves what is good for them, not as what's good for your bottom line. That's the path to survive the next decade.
- [17:25]
A
So let's get into the headlines. So the first headline is actually talking about the question of AI and its tangible value with this question of kind of AGI and where it's going. And I wanted you to set this up because the all in podcast talked about it this week and I thought it was fascinating.
- [17:43]
B
It's very complex to get into what's going on in the AI world, like when it comes to brands. Right. Like they were talking about Claude and Anthropic going public and being two giant companies bigger than anything that's ever been made that if they get artificial general intelligence will disrupt a lot of markets because one, it's going to take a lot of capital out of the markets when they go public in terms of investment capital in software companies. So it's going to affect other software companies. And once they go public, they're funded and they get AGI, it could destroy a bunch of software companies that don't have it. And so that's going to disrupt a
- [18:17]
A
lot of investing with artificial general intelligence coming. These structured AI programs that are utilizing AI, it's not going to be as relevant.
- [18:26]
B
What's not going to be as relevant?
- [18:27]
A
These isolated AI programs. Right. Because the whole like, especially businesses that are like that are completely structured around like these AI programming, like paying for these year long contracts for like an AI call operator or like paying for the extra add on for getting like the Canva AI. What is the value of those programs going to be if we tap into an artificial general intelligence where you're not going to need all these isolated differentiated products?
- [18:56]
B
Yeah. For the AI company that has dominance on AGI, their platform will be able to do everything almost immediately and better than isolated AI startups. So for AI startups, you know, it could be a rocky road if they don't get market penetration early and have a brand. I think where it's relevant to our listeners is don't buy into the hype of AI too quickly and transform your platform so it's all AI and you lose the human connection. Use AI to make yourself better at every stage. Use AI to get rid of unnecessary positions faster so that you can put your dollars where it really matters. But don't think AI forward facing is going to be the solution for your brand. It's a big risk to go too heavy into AI if it's forward facing.
- [19:39]
A
I want to talk about Alex Earle and Real Actives because she sold a million dollars in under five minutes.
- [19:46]
B
If ever there's a case of disrupting the market by somebody who's doing things differently. You know, we go into big corporate boardrooms and they don't want to do this stuff. Oh no, we don't do this. We didn't do that in the past. I don't, I think that's risky. Oh, what would happen if they're, I want to punch myself in the face when I listen to these executives in a big company that has a great brand talk themselves into why they can't do anything fricking interesting. And Alex Earl is a beautiful case study of doubling down into anticipation. Genuine storytelling so people relate to you and then knocks it out of the park within a minute of opening the sale. And yet guarantee you'll talk to a boardroom next week and they'll tell us why they can't do it.
- [20:24]
A
What's hilarious, too, is everyone's talking about her retail play and they're comparing her to road, and I'm like, slow down. How about we take five minutes to identify that? The current model to sell in the digital landscape is to create anticipation because nobody wants to buy your product. They want to feel like they're being brought in in a part of something that creates, and it's what speaks to
- [20:53]
B
the Nobody needs your product. You want to make them want it by being part of your story.
- [20:58]
A
And that's what Alex did is Alex created people to discover, to create demand. She created hype. People didn't know what she was launching, but she's been dropping Easter eggs and connecting with a community for years. And when you look at how many followers she has, I'm not minimizing, you know that she doesn't have a lot of followers. She has 8.3 million on TikTok and 5.5 million on Instagram. But to do a million in the first five minutes greatly surpasses what Ro did in the first year. And Haley, way more followers. Kardashian, way more followers.
- [21:32]
B
Kim, I'm sorry to say it like she dusted you on this one.
- [21:35]
A
She dusted. And she has a significantly smaller audience, although it's. It's big for the average person. But success leads clues, like, you guys need to realize that you have to change your. Your marketing rollout. It's not about waiting for it to be perfect and then dropping the product and doing a event. It's creating a strategy of anticipation before you launch. And Alex Ruhl is very different than Sammy Neusdorf. Like, they're. They're taking nuanced ways that connect with their brand strategy. I want to talk about this false comparison between real Actives and Hailey Bieber and I with Alex Earl. This is a case study that we've truly have never seen before. What Hailey Bieber was selling was this allure and aspirational potentiality of buying into what Hailey Bieber has achieved. Haley married the most famous and iconic cute male pop star that everyone between 25 and 35 wanted to be. Their one less lonely girl. Haley is. It's very private. We don't know much about her. She shares just enough. She really is the embodiment of that ultimate popular girl at school that you just want her to like you. You. The point is she's not Alex Earl. They're completely different people and strategies. Alex Earl has mastered vulnerability marketing. She's actually a response to what we were sick of with celebrity marketing. She was this real person that went to university that documented the hangovers, the messy nights, what she was doing, the boys. She hooked up with the bad skin. Like, she showed the good, the bad and the ugly. So it's a very different rollout strategy because Hailey Bieber represented beauty and aspiration. So her product was super on brand and authentic because it signaled that you were a girl like hailey Bieber. For $50, you could buy the phone case and take selfies like Hailey with Alex, it's a different beast. We haven't seen anything like this before.
- [23:39]
B
Well, it's kind of like Mr. Beast in a way when you say it's a different beast. Yeah, I think you accidentally actually made it tie. Yeah, it's actually, it's a different version of Mr. Beast in that she knows how to make content, she knows how to engage with her audience, and she knows how to create interest.
- [23:54]
A
Well, that's the kind of. The question is, like, it makes sense for Road to be sold to Elf because Road has brand cachet tied to an aspirational beauty. A brand owner that you don't know that much about. Like, Road can evolve because Haley hasn't put it all on the table. Alex, it's a bit more complicated because to use like the Mr. Beast example, is this just feastable chocolate bar? Is this just something that she can sell as a byproduct of her posting two to three posts per day and showing her life. Like, is this something that's going to die and then is she going to bloom into just keep launching different brand products? Because like Emma Chamberlain in her coffee is different than Haley Bieber and Road Beauty. Like, it's a different comparable. And I think the question that people are asking of like, is this going to have a billion dollar exit? And I don't believe it can because the, the nuance in Haley Bieber's brand can be built to be light luxury. Like, there's an to it of like, scarcity. Even though now it's got wider distribution. Haley is a scarce asset. She's not a clown that pops up that you see all the time. Alex this to me is more of a conduit of like a TikTok shop. More like a what a Lily Reinhardt is doing where she can just do through live sales and live shopping. But she has to be the clown that's constantly popping up.
- [25:11]
B
Like I'd call Hailey Bieber a clown because she's married to a clown who disrespects her. Right. That's why I would call her a clown. Right. But she's used him, she pursued him, she secured him and she's used him. And so she's actually a good business person. Alex Zurl I wouldn't call. She's a performer, but I don't think she's clownish. I think she's incredibly intelligent. What you can take from this is there's different ways to get success in the market. I think one of the biggest dangers to people is to get too greedy too fast to try to make things happen too quickly. Because we're always benchmarking against these famous people we talk about. But like, you know, I want to talk about John Smith or Jane Doe who, who's got a $2 million business and is looking to get to 20 million. Like what can they learn from that? And I think you can get local celebrity to help you if it works. Or you can double down on your own content creation and getting people to follow you and be interested in what you're going to do next.
- [26:02]
A
You made a great point. I just wanted to explain my language on the clown. It wasn't to be derogatory. It was more like being almost like an available show, like just a constant, like someone that keeps popping up. And you use that in talent. What's happening right now in the media landsc is the people who are becoming the most powerful as media personalities are almost these live streamers where they're like over index, they're overexposed. You see so much clips from them, you see so much content. So they're like flooding the Internet and it's often with like provocative content. So the big one this week, the guy that got arrested was like the looks maxing guy and he's created this whole sub niche that's like quite controversial on pounding your jawline with hammers so that when it, like when it the scar tissue rebuilds, it's like more defined or like Kai Sinette and like having these provocative clips with like celebrities freaking out on live streaming. My point is like Alex Earl is more akin to that in that she's over indexed. Like there's, she's just Putting out so much content every day compared to a Haley Bieber. That's more of that celebrity model of I'm gonna disappear for two months and then I'm gonna pop up and just do like three swipe through posts of the best, most curated hot pictures. It's one where like you're super available and exposed and then another one where it's done through more of a publicist lens.
- [27:19]
B
So if you're representing a brand at Coachella coming up this weekend, like what, what are your thoughts that you could give brands going to Coachella to make the biggest impact?
- [27:29]
A
Well, that's why I just don't like binary statements. Right. Like there are brands that you need to take more of that road approach. We're being super on brand and showing up less frequently but in very on brand curated moments. And then there's other brands that can be extremely successful that come through over index profiles. Like Alex Earle should have her own product to. She's only been ever selling like Poppy or like Georgie where she's getting a percentage of sales. This is now her first time to do like in feed sales to her content. So it just, it represents a different model. So when you're talking about the Coachella brands, are we talking about 818 and Kendall Jenner or are we talking, you know, Chelsea park and her having a sweaters pop up, like the Chelsea park sweater pop up should be over indexed because that's an. I think that's a content creator's brand that built a community that like there's different strategies based on different components.
- [28:24]
B
I know a lot of founders and brands follow us. If you're at Coachella, look around you. Not just by hey, do these look fun or sexy? Ask yourself, are they doing something that's actually different or draws attention to it? Because what I find is too many of the organizations are spending millions of dollars doing just different versions of what other people are doing. And when you're looking at strategy time and time again, we get like, we find that brands aren't prepared to take a risk and they don't really understand the cost of mistakes. There are situations where you can take a risk and the cost of it not working are very small. You might have a couple people criticize you, but that doesn't matter. It's better to take the risk, see if you learn and see if you can kind of penetrate a different way of doing something that will result in an asymmetric upside. But if you're not taking these risks, you're not going to find These asymmetric upsides to penetrate through. And if you're just sitting in committees all day with like, six different people, you know, telling you why you can't do something, and it's just safer to do what everybody else is doing and hire a better influencer or hotter models. Like, it's not really dynamic. So when you're assessing Coachella or the brands this week put a really critical eye to are they doing something that is changing the game or bringing more attention to it?
- [29:33]
A
So talk about the next headline. This is actually fascinating. So Victoria's Secret announced that it will have an open casting call across the country to find its next angel for the fall of 2026 fashion show. The winner will be signed to a an exclusive contract with IMG models and will walk the Runway in the show. I think this is brilliant.
- [29:50]
B
Let's break it down different levels of thinking. One, it reminds me of Nike's competition. They had to pick the next soccer player. It really got people bought into the brand. Where it's appealing to me from like second and third thinking is Victoria's Secret plays to the sexuality of women. Most women want to be sexy. Hundreds of thousands will try out for this new people. Because the best time to get a client is when they're new. New when they're young, when they're impressionable. The cigarette companies knew that long ago. That's why they would advertise to kids in high school, because if they got them Lucky Strike, they were lucky strike for life. So by having a competition that involves young females who are focused on beauty and making them apply, they're now getting fully immersed in the Victoria's Secret brand just to get a chance to become famous. So it's like beautiful psychological strategy because by, by applying, by watching, you're on the website, you're probably buying clothes, you're probably showing the clothes. Even if you don't get it, you felt beautiful. And now Victoria's Secret is in your DNA. Like it?
- [30:49]
A
It is.
- [30:50]
B
Yeah. It's a great, great story.
- [30:51]
A
It's bringing back the right woman into the brand. Brand. The reason why I love this is it's a perfect example of world building through the lens that we are defining it. The kind of simplest way to describe what is world building, because it's kind of like the word brand. Like, it's, it's, it's encompassing because it's building. It's world building. So it's the idea of like brick by brick doing more every day in every way. Way. But the reason why this is a great example of world building is that you can instantly see the cascade effect for the second, third, fourth, fifth of kind of breakdown that comes from this. So one you have people applying for the show, it becomes public. So who's been applying? So you get participatory marketing of people like chiming in, wanting to vote, seeing who they pick.
- [31:39]
B
You're just going to get sales too because people are going to go into the store and buy stuff and try and get a feel.
- [31:44]
A
And then it creates more demand for the next show because you want to see the person that won. And if you're a part of the voting, it also taps because you want
- [31:52]
B
to hate on the person who got in that you didn't or have an opinion. So getting your customers to have an opinion about something in your brand world building as relates to brand, people use it, but I don't think they really get it. If you ever played like a civilization game, the reason why the bigger the civilization of the world gets, the more capability it has. Because. Because if you're just at one level, you don't have infrastructure, you don't have cross tentacles speaking to each other. So the more you build your brand world in the perception of your customer, there's way more ways for them to enjoy it, right? And so when you say brick by brick, it's like you need sanitation, you need roads, you need government. The same as when you're building your brand. You need multiple ways for them to
- [32:31]
A
interact and create content and create entry points and demands into the brand, form opinions.
- [32:39]
B
You want them to be talking about what's going on with your brand because they're part of it.
- [32:42]
A
Then it's how do you create these different sites for content? That's like the simple way that I'm describing your way that you're. You said it is so well said. But when I break down in my mind, it's like how do you get to three to five plus plus plus pieces of content for every idea you put forward? Like, how do you get someone to put out three to five pieces of content based on that isolated idea? And this is one of them that does it. You get people that want to apply, you get people that want to post about being in the store trying on the products. You get content of them posting about being picked or not picked or being pissed off with the pics. Then you get content of them posting about the actual show and their thoughts on the show. Like once you now break down, how many pieces of content can this idea generate? That's when you know, you're in the world building territory and like that's what makes it so simple. It's interesting. The other fan's interesting thing is what makes world building complicated is that it has to be on brand. So the reason why this is on brand is one, it goes back to the lore in the story of Victoria's Secret. They used to film and capture these casting calls. It was like a big part of the brand and it was super iconic before social media, right. Where women would show up and then, you know, that's when they had all this bad press about what that looked like and what that was like because it was high stakes and it required a very good looking thin model. Another thing that's interesting is, is Victoria's Secret has become an entertainment brand. Like the show is such a big part of the ethos to the brand that what they've lost sight of is that it's an entertainment brand. Like when I used to go into the store during the height when they had swimwear, because that's when I went into the store the most is when they had pink and when they had swimwear, they would have photos and videos of the show happening in the store. Like they understood being an entertainment brand kind of before this ownership of socials. And then they lost it when socials became the main communication form.
- [34:47]
B
You should double down on controversy even in your own brand. Because if I was advising this particular venture, like I would be encouraging or even seeding controversial stories that are criticizing it totally, right? Like I want to get. Oh, public interest group X plans to protest show because it does what? Why? Like I would do that. Like just make people get into it. Like get people angry. So that there's a. Now it's a universe of. And there's one side and another side. That's when it's more. Your brand is most powerful, is when there's a. There's a world, but there's an enemy on the other side. And you're on this side and now you're really advocating for it.
- [35:26]
A
Makes you tune in, right? It's why our post on the Secret Lives. ABC torching the Bachelor. Swipe through post if you know, you know, if that English was English. English. But it's because there's. There's two camps. There's a camp that's like, you can't air someone that's. That's charged in guilty for domestic violence. And then there's another camp that's like, she's a train wreck, we want her. That's what Creates that. You need that to get good TV or good content.
- [35:54]
B
You know what I would do if I was advising them? Honestly, I think there's scope for it. I would try and find like, the hottest models over 50. Like, I would, like, bring a segment into it to make it a little because I find, like, there's more and more people staying fit later in life.
- [36:08]
A
Yeah.
- [36:09]
B
And I think you could really find elegant sexuality in that without it being, you know, garbage. So it's just average. But just find like the most beautiful people of a certain age and like, have them walk down there and be on top of the world showing their stuff. I think that would be super cool.
- [36:24]
A
Well, I think it's really interesting what you're saying, because when I think about this last year's show, I was the most enthralled with how those OG supermodels looked on the Runway. More than I was impressed by, like, more young, hot 22 year olds. It's interesting. Like, the algorithm loves newness, and I think our brains love newness because we're inundated with so much of the same on the algorithm that what I love seeing the most is exactly what you're saying. It's the Caroline Stanber. It's these women who are 50 but look better than I look now. And that's what I wanted more. Because that also taps into that millennial psychology of this ultimate fear of aging. And see these women that look incredible at 50. And Sports Illustrated is tapping into that too. Right? Like they're getting more models that are in their 40s and 50s. Because I care more about that.
- [37:16]
B
And honestly, since we're dig. Digging into deep psychology, because most young men are. Have been completely weakened and emasculated, they're actually intimidated by girls their own age. And a lot of them are kind of looking for like, mommy figures. Like it would bring like, older women are kind of in with these young guys who have no money. Money and so putting in kind of hot 50 year olds. It'll bring like some of the other young guys in who love these mommy figures.
- [37:40]
A
I mean, I cannot imagine ever being with someone that's older. So I mean, that's just. Okay, next point.
- [37:47]
B
Too challenging.
- [37:48]
A
Too close. Okay, so let's talk about, say, hires Lawrence Singer as head of Sustainability and Impact. So this to me speaks this larger trend we're seeing right now in CPG in different formats. But this headline is interesting. So say beauty, kind of. The tokenized clean sustainability brand at Sephora has hired Lauren Singer, who's a kind of a pretty famous environmental activist. She has a substack and a blog and a page called Trash is for Tossers. And it's basically this idea of, like, leading the zero waste movement. They've kind of brought this person in to signal that, say, is clearly committed to sustainability. They're bringing in, like an executive to own this title. What's interesting here is that the clean beauty space has a credibility problem because greenwashing is so rampant. I do think that Sephora is perpetuating that narrative by giving, like, a badge for that to. To kind of be present on beauty brands. What does clean even mean anymore? Like, it almost means nothing because the. The topic of it is so broad. But what's interesting is that founder Laney Crowell talked about how Sephora told her directly that consumers didn't know about the sustainability work that SANE was doing and that it wasn't translating. So the goal for this move to me more is like a branding headline to really connect with that target consumer that really wants to make an impact with the products they're purchasing. And it signals that virtuousness of, like, when you use, say, you really are serious about kind of cleanness and sustainability. What do you think?
- [39:20]
B
Yeah, I think on one hand it speaks to the idea that purpose washing is dead, that, you know, this kind of fake embracing every cause, you know, to be popular with the consumer. It's. It's not believable anymore. It's not authentic. But when a brand like this, if they really want to own the space, they gotta get into it in a way that's believable and authentic, as opposed to just having six statements on your package. I mean, nothing, you know, vegan. This, this, this. So it's. That is a very smart brand move to capture the loyalty of that area. And I would even be telling them emphasize how fake and fraudulent most of the other claims are. Right? Like, don't be scared of the controversy. You believe in it. And one way to be successful in what you believe in is you have to name the people who are abusing it. Right. There's been so much environmental corruption that has come out from governments and big organizations pretending to be environmental, convincing the populace through garbage stories and making billions of dollars while people think that they're being virtuous, it's not actually doing it. So there has to be a very clear connection between what you're doing and how it's actually changing the plan. Planet.
- [40:25]
A
I want to preface my point to I believe this is brilliant of what SE did because it really gives that credibility and loyalty connection to the consumer that's missing in the Sephora landscape. For the woman who's, you know, educated, looking for true clean products, looking to make a difference, but not wanting to sacrifice her beauty, this investment in bringing in Lauren Singer will pay dividends because it really signals to that educated class those storytelling speaking points of like, when women are recommending their beauty products, it gives that extra storytelling bump. So it's really smart. And it's differentiated from the other headlines about to read to you of like brands creating random titles for these kind of creators or thought leaders online.
- [41:13]
B
Going back to this though, is her, is her position that she's very environmental or that it's clean ingredients for the products?
- [41:21]
A
Well, this is what's complicated is that I watched Lauren sing Singer's TED Talk that has like 4 million views. It's super successful on YouTube. And the hook is that she has this glass mason jar and she's like, this is the. In all of the waste that I produced in the last three years fits into this mason jar. And she goes on to basically say that like nothing she uses uses plastic. Nothing she doesn't like. She makes all of her own products and she's on the quest of like helping people live cleaner lives. To your point point, how does that fit into mass plastic inventory that exists in Sephora? Like on one hand I'm like, this is really smart because it gives women that want to turn a blind eye but want to feel virtuous enough to continue buying. Say on another hand, how does this tap into exactly what you're bringing up of like, where does this go? And at the end of the day, say can't have a Bring your own glass mason jar and fill up your own blush at Sephora.
- [42:20]
B
Sephora, like most marketing is psychological operations and it just, it would make me smile to see people walking out of Sephora with a say product and get into their Range Rover by themselves and drive home, you know, or like just
- [42:32]
A
ship it like one product to their house? Well, this is the headline. It's like Singer rule spans everything from product formulation and supply chain decisions to how the brand communicates its sustainability commitments externally. The higher coincides with the release of The T say's 2025 impact report and expanded partnership with Repurpose Global. Say is the first beauty brand to sign the climate pledge. Net zero carbon by 2039 and has removed millions of pounds of plastic through community based recovery programs. All good, but I've got say product on my counter at home and that Shit's plastic. So I just. It all sounds good. I think it's. I. I don't want to rip it apart because I do think it's the right mix move from the. The context of. Oh, there is very much a say consumer.
- [43:19]
B
I'm just saying, like, it's to me. Call me. What's the word for somebody who's skeptical, but signing a commitment to be carbon neutral by 1939.
- [43:28]
A
No, 2039.
- [43:29]
B
2039. Okay. Like, we're going to be on different planets by then. Like, it's, It's. It's a pure. It has nothing. Right. Like, but you're the first person to sign it. Well, let me be the first person to sign 2167's Commission commitment to goldfish preservation. You know what I mean? Like, okay, like, who cares? Like, let's connect, really, with your customer. But I want to get into these titles.
- [43:51]
A
Yeah, let's get into the titles. I feel like I gave you guys enough to process on that. Okay, so this is not new, but last week I saw two of these headlines that I thought was interesting with the say one, so I figured this can be a larger segment. So Jones Road taps Emily De Donato as a chief Blush officer. Jones Road is Bobby Brown Brown's newest brand. It's all about kind of natural. It's exactly what Bobby Brown built her beauty brand off of. It's very focused on this, like, clean girl aesthetic. Less is more. Very much. Like three minutes, and you've got a, like, a full face kind of vibe. It's not really competing with, like, the Pat McGraths of the world, where it's like makeup artist. Makeup Chief Blush officer puts this model whose narrative online is like, like, I was told I would never be a model, and now look at me. I'm a famous model. Not only am I a famous model, but then I had three kids and I can still model. And every time that anyone told me, no, you can't do it, I pushed through. So it kind of connects with that Jones Road messaging and Bobby Brown storytelling. But at the end of the day, do we give a about being a chief Blush officer and what do we think this means in the grand context of. Of like David's Bar coming out this past week and saying that Candace Wapnol is their chief beauty officer, and then
- [45:11]
B
we did a post chief Brand officer.
- [45:12]
A
No, no. Beauty officer of a protein bar.
- [45:15]
B
Many of our listeners will know that titles are often a way employers don't give you a raise. Right. In many ways. Like, so if the more crazy titles you see, the more dysfunctional a company is, right? So to make somebody a Chief Blush officer, like Chief Chief Blush Officer, like this could be a parody movie.
- [45:33]
A
It's supposed to be cheeky though. Haha. No pun intended.
- [45:36]
B
Chief is usually the executive suite, right? That has decision making over where a company is going. You can have an ambassador, like you'd be the Blush ambassador, but Chief Blush, you're actually doing a disservice to the people who are working hard in the business to make it work. Because you're trying to get a headline, you're trying to leverage their celebrity. There's other ways to do it. But you know, you can give people chiefs of everything. Chief fart catcher, chief chief of whatever, waste disposal. So like, people are so desperate for attention that they're giving away brands hoping to get coverage in the news.
- [46:04]
A
But here's another perspective. I've been thinking about this segment specifically for the entire week and it has stuck with me storytelling the narrative around it. It's inner circle content. Like it's inner circle in the sense that if you're in the funnel, if you're a part of the brand and they release something like this in collaboration with the market model, it does elevate the relationship with that model in a way that at least feels more meaningful and more intentional than just using someone that's pretty. And there was a story tied to it. So like.
- [46:38]
B
But there was no position before.
- [46:40]
A
So there is. So the story goes that Emily, when she was in the kind of the height of her younger modeling days, actually did a shoot with Bobby Brown where Bobby Brown was doing her makeup. And it was such a big deal for her. She was so nervous. And the photo they have is her kind of doing the blush. And then Emily did a brand kind of goes on to being this like clean aesthetic, blushy kind of makeup person. And she had this video go viral with the Weathering Heights blush. So there is a storyline to it that if you're in the funnel, your inner circle. And I do think it's intelligent for at the end of the day, it goes back to we talked about last week of like the campaign narrative, like why you do campaigns is just to stay top of mind so people go to your site and buy more product. But then compare that to like the chief beauty officer of Candace Swapnol. And what I think is about to flood the market with the, the stupidness of like taking a good idea and like watering it down so that it means nothing.
- [47:33]
B
I just want to go Back to my previous reference of chief fart catcher. For all of you there that are in businesses who've worked in corporations, think of the person who would follow around the boss and just capture their farts. That's what the chief fart catcher is. I'm not saying that you need to create this position, but they exist in most corporations. Now let's move on to David.
- [47:51]
A
Thanks for that sidebar. So David's the Same Way week basically announces Candace Swapnal as their chief beauty officer. So David's is a protein bar. Candace Swapnal is a supermodel. Candace Swapnol is a supermodel celebrity. To go back to our celebrity argument, that really is not known for her personal brand and the entire post. The caption that I could read to best describe whatever this title means is a corporately written caption on a TikTok that's on Candace Wapnol's TikTok that talks about how how beauty is not in the eye of the beholder. Beauty is something that you can hack. Beauty is something that David understands. So it taps into the idea of like what the statue of David represents and where their namesake comes from. And that Candice Swapnole looks forward to sharing her beauty tips and tricks from the brushes she uses to how she achieves Reeves beauty. It's a protein bar company. Is this smart because it just breaks through and people are like wtf? Or is this the beginning of a lot of brands leveraging this concept in a way that's not impactful and doesn't move the needle?
- [49:04]
B
It's tough to even digest another pun for David's bars. Ha ha. Because I'm not sure Candice eats the bars, but obviously she has a beautiful physique and covering her in a plaster like type of garment makes her look like David. The thing is like, like I don't like when they kind of use a theme because at one level it seems clever, but it's actually not because the statue of David was built for Marvel. Amazing ingredients. It took years to do. It's accumulation of so much stuff and then you get something of true beauty.
- [49:36]
A
Yeah.
- [49:36]
B
And now they're kind of taking a supermodel, slapping some pasture on it, put plaster on it and trying to make David's bar represent beauty. I don't know if David's bar represents beauty. I know there's been some controversy over the ingredients of late. I would be focused on making sure that the ingredients message is done properly rather than just kind of leveling into this fake intellectual piece on you know, slow talking beauty is, you know, that's
- [50:03]
A
even more complicated when you really think about it is kind of a bad time to be talking about beauty and potentially having a mean girls fat bar on your hands here. Because if you're like miscalculating the calories, the word on the street is this is not a. This is not a legalized headline. Fact. You know, David's legal team don't come for us, but it's kind of a weird time to be utilizing one of the skinniest, hottest supermodels that can tap into being a CBO chief beauty officer
- [50:33]
B
and could be making us fat at David's protein headquarters. What does a chief beauty officer do?
- [50:40]
A
That is the question, guys. You tell us what you think that is.
- [50:42]
B
She goes around yelling at people for not being pretty enough.
- [50:45]
A
Hiring Candace to just walk around and be like, you look like a mess today, Camille. That color does not look good on you. What were you thinking? Thinking I'm kind of here for that. No. Okay, let's move on. The hook for this headline is that Timothy Chamolet Chalamet Shamwow. You are wrong. That.
- [51:03]
B
Yes. And the way in which we kind of came to this conclusion is quite entertaining.
- [51:08]
A
It really is.
- [51:09]
B
At the Pantages Theater, we went to
- [51:11]
A
see Spamalot, the Monty Python play. And while we were kind of sitting there and waiting for the show to start, we realized how we still are seeking evening experiences like things to do.
- [51:22]
B
Because we've been to a bunch of shows recently like Moulin Rouge, Loved Buena Vista Social Club, one of my favorites. Then we're going to Spamalot. And then in anticipation of starting, I kind of lean over to you and I go, you know, if I could invest in Broadway style shows en masse, I would do that now. Because I think people still want to get out of the house and have an experience. They just don't want to see it on a. On a two dimensional screen. They want to see three dimensional performance in person. Is there. You know, I don't know if I was saying that he was hammering. I don't think I said that he was hammering them because his own own profession was in jeopardy. I think he was being arrogant because he's at the top of his game thinking, oh, you know, I don't want to be there. But the irony that I think is sweet is that you're going to see less and less money going in that direction and more going to these live experiences, which, you know, to me is actually refreshing because I don't need to go to a big theater to watch a movie when I can watch it at home. But I love to go and see humans perform music or opera or play. Like we should lean way more into that.
- [52:22]
A
The thing that's interesting is the argument between digital. It's hard to make that better in a real world context because digital can improve at a different rate. In person is capped of its iteration on improvement. However, you can't replace the in person with an in home version. And that's what's really relevant and interesting and where I actually think if you are in the performing arts, if you own Broadway shows, if you own Broadway locations, if you can do more to change that experience, it has a disproportional impact on your business because you can't replace going in person and seeing the show. So.
- [53:05]
B
Right. Lose the arrogance. Because a lot of those areas kind of had an arrogance that you're lucky to be there at the symphony, at the opera, at the show. Right. And so they don't actually treat the. But like if they were to make it far easier to get refreshments, far more comfortable, more immersive, like use some creativity rather than having the same concession stand and same swag spot the thing that you had for 40 years. Like do something way more immersive about that experience. Whether it's listening to the music and headphones out there or engaging in something. This is something I would go all in on.
- [53:35]
A
Yeah, totally. And I think that also connects to the what Nell Horan is doing because he launched this week this private fan dinners. And why I think that's so interesting, we'll do the ad read bringing in here. Jose. Why I think it's so interesting is that it completely competes with where beauty founders got in trouble last year of like only hacking, bringing in big famous names to get earned media value and reach digitally. And he's going back to like investing in a community. And this is interesting because I don't really care if like Cody Simpson and all these other celebrity names are at now Nell Horan's dinner party, but his fans to be invited. This is what we said about summer Fridays and they did that big expensive dinner last year year and they invited all of these like celebrity founders in la and I'm like, why bring them out for more paid dinners for them to all post about the evening? Why don't you bring fighting for camera space?
- [54:34]
B
Like no, that's, it's, it's actually a really good move. Especially when the song is called Dinner Party. Right. Like this is why we need smarter people in marketing and branding. We're not seeing this level across the board.
- [54:45]
A
But the reason why I like it is it obviously still got to to us, and it makes me like him more because he would prefer as an artist to perform to an intimate. Like, it actually brings him back down to that artist level of we've celebritized these singers to be so out of reach and out of touch to the fans and how much disproportionate, lifelong value he's getting by doing that. Even for the people that weren't selected, they now have the chance to be that one less lonely girl the next time he does it.
- [55:16]
B
And this is what I would say to some of the celebrities to follow us. Unfortunately, you can't trust most of your advisors because they're telling you to do things that make them feel cool.
- [55:24]
A
Yeah.
- [55:24]
B
So if they get tons of celebrities there with you, they feel cool because they're getting the people they want. But you, as an artist, you want to be around the people who love your stuff. I remember when I went to a book signing once and everybody had these books because the person was really well known. I won't mention their name. And one of the smart aides saw that I had a book that was all dog ear because I'd read it so many times. And they pulled me to the front of the line. He's like, finally somebody who actually has read me my book. That's what the artists want, and it's actually good for your brand to do that. So be very careful about who you're listening to when you're talking about spending a lot of money.
- [55:56]
A
And, Philip, we're tight on time. I think a great way to wrap up this episode is for you to break down why Easter has eggs and bunnies.
- [56:05]
B
The God of fertility's name was Eoster E O S T R E. And that was the God of fertility. And that pagan God was celebrated around the vernal equinox, the spring equinox, which is in March, usually in around March or April. And what is spring? Fertility. So when religions vie to take power from others, they usually absorb something about their competing religions ideology. And the reason why Easter is populated by bunnies is because they're known for being very fertile, and eggs is new growth in spring. So what we have at Easter is a branding overlap of the Christian religious tradition of somebody dying on a cross viciously with a brand of bunnies and rabbits running around each other to celebrate spring birth and fertility.
- [56:55]
A
So that's why we see so many chocolates and, like, Easter eggs. And because it's the time of the year where you're seeing procreation, they would
- [57:05]
B
run out and see pro, like new animals, flowers blooming. It was all about fertility. And so those are two symbols of fertility that are now overlapped on top of the brand of Easter.
- [57:16]
A
Wow. Love the rogue lawyer insights.
- [57:18]
B
All right.
- [57:19]
A
Amazing, guys. Well, thank you again for listening to another week of Art of the Brand. Our goal every day this week is to go live at 12 PST and which is 3 Eastern so that we can show up. We're going to talk about April Fool's brand moments. We're. We have a bunch of stuff to talk about every day. Yeah. Our goal is to go live every day this week. So it'd be awesome if you can support us and you can be there. Add in some questions, we'll do some live on audits. We hope you guys have an amazing week and had a restful weekend because
- [57:43]
B
we put on our screensaver. Our children's future is worth going live every week.
- [57:47]
A
Same. All right, have a great day. Bye, guys.