← The Art of the Brand
The Art of the Brand
Personal Branding Strategies: Athlete Marketing, Brand Collaborations, and Kim Kardashian's Tesla Partnership
01:12:02
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- [00:00]
A
I think that business owners are pissed off about socials is because they can't buy their way through it. This was, like, really a political move for her. You want influencers constantly unboxing so that the brand stays relevant. Like, it keeps hype. It's like you're trying to layer on too much, and it just becomes greed.
- [00:17]
B
First impressions. It looks like a diaper bag.
- [00:19]
A
It actually makes you not want to buy because, like, it's so repulsive.
- [00:24]
B
What a brand, what a brand, what.
- [00:25]
A
A brand, what a mighty good brand. Say it again now. What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand. Welcome back to Art of the Brand. This week, we're launching the course.
- [00:38]
B
You look remarkably good for how hard you've been working on this course this week.
- [00:42]
A
Well, thank you. I'd like to thank my friends in Korea.
- [00:45]
B
Why don't you thank your staff who've been busting their butt for you?
- [00:48]
A
Oh, my God. The team has been absolutely. They've it. We really have. We really have been the Chicago Bulls. I guess that makes you Michael Jordan.
- [00:56]
B
Maybe.
- [00:56]
A
Maybe I'm more like Dennis Rodman. You know, like, I go rogue, sure. But, yeah. So I'm super pumped to get this out. By the time that this goes live, the course will be live.
- [01:05]
B
So let me ask you a question. Why was this course important to you, and why'd you do it?
- [01:09]
A
It's been really the most rewarding journey of being authentic, showing up, not asking for anything, and just seeing who connects with the content. And it's cool because in this pursuit of not entirely sure what, but just continuing to show up because it's working, I've realized I actually love working with people the most. Like, initially, when I started out, to me, it was like the glitz and the glamour was like the big brands. And I got that because of creating content and investing in my brand. And now I actually really realized that it's such a. Like a. The grass is always greener. Like, it's not better. Working with humans is better. It's more rewarding. But, like, my time is capped. Like, I can't work with only struggling small business owners in the same way anymore. And I. We, like, we had to do something to help them because they need help.
- [02:02]
B
Having watched your journey, there's a thing I've called the but for test. And, like, your life can go on one path, and if you turn right, you meet somebody new, and then you turn another right, and your. Your life goes in a completely different direction. And I think when you look back, you're like, because you made. You took a couple of risks and got out of your comfort zone. You know, you just got on a different highway and went in a different destination.
- [02:23]
A
Totally.
- [02:24]
B
What you want to do is give people the opportunity to. To get out of their comfort zones, to do the things that will allow them to meet new customers, new people, new friends, just to have the confidence to take that turn that they wouldn't normally turn, or to do it better.
- [02:39]
A
Totally. And to me, the messages I love getting the most is someone reaching out and being like, I love listening to you. I tune in every week. I've been implementing what you've been teaching through your videos, and it's changed my business. But there's just only so many people that are prepared to sit down and consume 400 videos. So, like, there needed to be a more constructive way to teach them what's kind of locked inside. Yeah.
- [03:02]
B
I had this conversation when I was speaking to a leadership group, and they were asking. It was females, but they were asking, like, how do I get out of this rut? And I'm like, well, what do you do every day? And they're like. And I go, if you're doing the same thing every day, the statistics of you encountering something that changes your life is very low, even in terms of meeting a life partner. Like, if you're just doing the same thing every day. Right. You just have to have somebody happen to bump into at the grocery store in order to change your life. So you have to do something that. That's different, that's a little bit of a risk in order to change it. And this is a perspective that I think you bring to people.
- [03:35]
A
I have something to add to that, because it's exactly the book I'm reading right now, Peak. And one of the stories I give early in the book is that Benjamin Franklin played chess with a lot of the best chess players around him, but he never became better than just being a good chess player because he didn't put himself into different environments. So he continued like his skill set level was stagnant. And to exactly to your point, the whole idea about peak, the concept of this behavioral scientist who studied what makes people great is that you have to create new neural pathways. So you need to develop that. That elasticity by doing things that stress the brain. And it's by going things past your comfort zone. So in order to become really at something. And that's where I think social media is just. It's so interesting because it's not complicated, but it's easy to stay stagnant, to not innovate, to not try new things, to feel like you can't. And you need to basically put yourself into a different zone of thinking in order to stretch your brain and to become more classic.
- [04:49]
B
Like when, when you, you get invited to a party and you're like, I don't want to go to the party, like it's a pain in the butt. But then there's. Sometimes you go to that event and you meet somebody who opens a door for your business, or you meet a new mentor, or you meet a new romantic interest. And too many people don't take those risks in their personal life. What social media does, if you do take some risks and kind of follow this content creation, it opens the door a hundred x that, right? Because you can make a piece of content that's seen by somebody across the world, but then changes your life or.
- [05:19]
A
Improves your business to even kind of take it a step further. Yesterday, an old friend of ours, she called me and she saw the marketing and she had some questions, you know, about the course. And I entertained it because this has been a good friend for a long time. And I was listening to her and she was like, you know, is this course gonna teach me how to use Capcut? Because I'm just so overwhelmed and I don't know where to start. And I could just see this very intelligent, very capable human being already putting themselves into spirals of why they can't do something. Why, like why they need something to be easier. And it. It's exactly to your point. When you consume the content that's the best online. It's like today, it's actually quite simple. It's just like Bethenny Frankel being Bethenny Frankel or Gary B. V being Gary Vee. It's actually fundamentally a mindset shift that you need to see content as an authentic arm to who you are. Like just capturing like real life moments with a hook. And what I was hearing this woman go through in her mind was you don't need to pay for a course to learn how to use Capcut. Like you need to. You can Type in on YouTube, you can type in on Google, you can download the app and like just spend an hour and try to get better. Like, it's quite literally the most easy app. What holds you back is the, is the planning, is the understanding, is the working through the uncomfortability. You just want to have excuses that keeps you back, which is more technologically focused than like fundamentally understanding who, what where, why and how you're going to show up.
- [06:53]
B
We encounter those people all the time that they're very attention to detail, focused, almost obsessive because it gives them permission to move to the next level once they've absolutely mastered the details. But it prevents them from doing the strategic leap or understanding the 30,000 foot picture. And this person saying, is it going to teach me how to do cap guys well?
- [07:12]
A
And that's exactly why like transparently I want to move out of socials because where socials is moving is it's very difficult to have somebody else do your socials for you because there is so much content. It's becoming harder and harder to break through. Like you, you genuinely have to develop the muscle of I don't care how I look, I don't care what the background looks like. This is a good idea. I have it now. Here's my $4,000 phone. That is a better camera that existed for the last thousand, like technology existed. It's like that's the stage you have to break through because and what's hilarious is this woman who, she's been a professional photographer around the world and she's into her 40s, like she's been a sought after photographer. And I'm like, no one can do your socials for you because really if you were born like 20 years younger, like you would be a social media expert. Like you have the eye, you have the skill set, you can't outsource it because by the time you give the edits, you make them do it four or five times, you should have just done it in the first place. And I'm finding most business owners can't find someone that's good at doing their socials because they really are the best at doing their socials, but they're holding themselves back.
- [08:29]
B
That's why I think this course is really valuable to a lot of people, is they kind of have a managerial approach to their business. Is like, what is the process? Who can I assign it to? How do I supervise it? But the world has changed that. If you are the person who owns or runs the business, the socials are now your job. Like you can't delegate your own socials. You are the face of the business. You're trying to capture the attention of people who align with your business. You have to do it, you can't manage it. And this course allows them to understand how to do it and empower them.
- [09:03]
A
To do it in a simple way. Like it's content. Pillars are simple, they're like but the reason why they're groundbreaking is because we want to over complicate social media, because we don't want to be bothered with doing it. We want somebody else to do it. And that's what's so, like, fascinating about the psychology of, of this is you would rather have somebody else spend and also waste time. Like, let's say it takes 20 hours, but like, really it probably could take like five or 10. And then you're gonna review it, give them edits, and you're probably taking another two or three hours out of your time. When if you had just showed up every day and you had content pillars, you badged out, you knew your hooks, and you spent 10 minutes every morning before you sat down and opened your laptop and did a video, it would literally 10x your business. You would be saving money on social media manager. Your cortisol levels would be lower because you're not trying to tell someone that doesn't understand their business like the business owner does, how to change it. And it would just, it would just work. Like, how much, how much more does some random person care about your business than you do. Like, customers are hiring you, they're not hiring Joe, that works out of New Jersey, that does your social media graphics, and you're asking him to design these graphics to make you look better when you could literally just say what's on the graphic in the video. And you're now doing what your competitors aren't. The core takeaway is like, the reason why I'm here and why I'm doing this is I've been in this game for almost a decade now. And we were hired initially by small business owners. And then you made me start investing in creating content. It was uncomfortable. All of the videos still exist on the Internet. There's been multiple times where I've had dirty hair, I've had purple hair because my purple shampoo wasn't washed out, or I've had stains on my outfits, my fly's been undone, I've had a bad angle, been having a bad day, you have to work through it. And now I'm at a point where it's an intangible. I can't even tell you what it's worth. But that mindset shift of working through that uncomfortability, it's the secret of life. If you just do that in every area of your life, you're truly winning. And what we've learned by breaking through this and speaking with brands and business owners is just, it's the key that goes, ah, okay, that makes sense.
- [11:21]
B
You know what I was thinking? I went into a hardware store the other day and I was really impressed by its layout.
- [11:27]
A
We should shut them out. It was home hardware. We were really impressed. They've like rebranded. And honestly, I haven't stopped thinking about the Yeti Camino bag. I think I'm going to go get it. Sorry. I was really impressed by the layout.
- [11:38]
B
It's so, it's so life enriching. Once you, once you're okay with putting yourself on social media to connect with people you would never have met. Right. And because now they can find you on social media. But even when I'm making buying decisions now, if the lady who was running, she's an owner of that home hardware, she had personality coming out of her ears, like, just amazing. Her staff, like, they were all hugging, but she just had this vibe. Now, I had never seen her before, but if she was doing social media and just being herself, I would be drawn to that place. Like, I want to go to places where I. Like the human.
- [12:15]
A
Yes. Okay, so what you're saying though is also such an important point for opportunity cost. Like you can only measure the randomness that exists within the universe, right? Like there's a randomness to it and there's a randomness that we decided to go to home hardware because my mother had asked for soil. And the enjoyment that we had, like, we're going to go back, we've talked about it, we've had like, we had a really joyful experience. To your point, if, if they were creating content, how much less randomness would occur? Like, how much more intentionality? And in the current landscape, it's the only way to guarantee survival. Because if people are pinching their wallets, you have to at least be top of mind because they're just, they're spending less, period. So if they're already spending less, why are you, why are you betting on randomness to be your way through? And I was actually, I was listening to a video and he made a really great point. He's like a product or service without a brand is a commodity. Like it's just nothing. Like it's just something for a transaction. The moment you add a brand, it actually has a story and you develop a relationship and it has meaning and has weight and you already have a brand. But by not showing up and investing that extra 10 minutes every day and building that online community, you're just lost.
- [13:37]
B
And you can just steal business from nameless, faceless competitors or corporations if you just get yourself out There I have.
- [13:45]
A
A small funny story. So we have a something coming up with a big brand out of Australia and a part of the launch is a podcast to do in person. And I really wanted to do the podcast in person over zoom. And Philip as the manager is like, we need a business reason for not flying to Australia to do a podcast. I'm like, I've got a vision. I've got a feeling like, we need to get to Australia to do this podcast. And he's like, okay, well, there needs to be a business reason. So on Monday, I'm like, manifest to the universe. I'm like, I need a business reason. And this person reaches out, out on LinkedIn, who's this business owner out of Australia, and he's like, wants me to do a speaking engagement in the US Completely not tied to Australia. And I'm like having this great conversation. This guy is like a total like building your tribe, creating your community, right? Like, he is so in line with our message. He, he has watched a bunch of our content. He feels like he knows us. You know, I'm coming onto this Zoom. And then because he's watched so much content, I feel like I know him. Like, he's my person. And that's what makes creating content so cool, is it just connects with the right people. And I end up asking him, I'm like, you know, I've got a question for you, Ben. Do you have like potentially any speaking opportunities between now and June? Because I'm really looking for.
- [15:01]
B
Because I gotta sell this to Philip.
- [15:02]
A
Yeah, like, I really, I've gotta get to Australian. Philip needs to be bought. In he goes. You know what, we just signed a big engagement this morning with huge brand coming to Australia for their huge industry, and we actually need a speaker on personal branding for a three city tour in Australia. Let me get back to you in 24 hours. And he's gotten back to me and he's just, he's waiting to solidify the deal. And the point to this is like, how do you. One, even if it doesn't pan out, how do you measure what that, that potentiality is worth when it's no longer as random, like you're being intentional with the content goes out like who it's connecting with, it's creating those pathways for what you want to achieve.
- [15:44]
B
No, And I know just to get back to what we started with, the reason why you, you kind of really worked quite hard to get this course done was because you know that you can affect thousands and thousands of people's lives. With this course, as opposed to just on individual engagements. And I think that's what's beautiful about it, is you can get feedback, you can get some interactions from. There are going to be some tremendous opportunities. But you busted your butt to put yourself out there. Tons of shots, tons of cuts, like frustrations. But that's what drives you, is to help these. Like, what we do is we want to make as many millionaires as possible by leveraging good brand strategy.
- [16:23]
A
Literally all I could ask for is a million stories of connected people whose lives were changed, who even can provide me insight on how they implemented it. Because, like, at this point, it's joy of life. It's just joy of craft.
- [16:39]
B
You know, when I've done coaching over the years, there are some people who they want to pay and then they want to grind you for as much work as possible, because that's how they get value. I've given you a dollar. I want to get $10 of value for paying you a dollar. That kind of scarcity mindset doesn't generally lend itself to dynamic change. Sometimes you meet somebody and they just give you that one little thing that helps you get over the hump to change your life. And I think that's what you've done by investing in so deeply in this course, to share everything you have. Because I know for sure that anybody who takes your course is going to get at least one nugget that changes their life.
- [17:14]
A
It's guaranteed. The reason why we did this is because these big brands that initially were my bright shiny objects and then, you know, when I got under the hood, I'm like, geez, like, you're as messed up as this poor small mechanic down the street. You just have more money to spend and to burn. Like it's the same confusion but no human connection. But yeah, but, yeah, true, of course. But. But in mapping this out, because initially, again, like, I did this with smaller businesses and then as the brand grew, I got exposed to bigger brands and it was the same thinking it was the same person. It was just more impressive name on the other side and a bigger office. And this structure is what every single one of these teams was like. Like, we've hired this agency and we've hired this person, and this is the best version of this that we've ever seen. This finally makes sense. Like, this is simple enough to run with. And these brand managers and CMOs that work at these brands who are not my enemy because they align with me on socials, they reach out six months later and they're like our socials are up, like we're thriving. This makes perfect sense. And it's, that's why I did this. Because you like I'm one person. How many small businesses or how many businesses can I work with? There's a cap. But I did want to now moving off of that, I wanted to touch on because we haven't talked about it in a long time, the four quadrant matrix. And I think it's important for many business owners listening to this, understanding how to go through the mindset shift for investing in your personal brand and taking control of your content. Because like having a baby, you know, like there's no convenient time to, to start. Especially the busier you get. And that's kind of this paradox, right, is that the busier you get, the harder it is to focus on creating content. The less time you have, the less energy you have.
- [19:03]
B
That's actually the why people hit ceilings in their business development. When I help people with scaling, working your butt off doing things well gets you to that kind of million maybe in revenue one to five. But then you hit a hard glass ceiling is because you're so busy in the business, you're not working on the business.
- [19:20]
A
On the business. Yeah.
- [19:21]
B
We've talked about it numerous times. I was introduced to it through Stephen Covey.
- [19:26]
A
I think he seven habits, highly effective humans.
- [19:29]
B
But I think he was the one who did it and he just created the quadrants. There's one matrix of urgency and then there's another matrix, matrix of importance. And the least valuable thing you could be doing is something that's not urgent and not important. And that's just a random phone call or a random email from somebody. But it's kind of addictive to be occupied with those things. But it's not urgent. It's not important. But you'd be surprised at how much of a day people spend on it. The other thing is urgent and not important. Yeah, urgent is like somebody's at the door or somebody's calling you. So there's this urgency to it, but it's not really important in terms of it doesn't move your goalposts down the, down the line. What most of our clients or business owners are dealing with for the majority are urgent, important things and we call them crises. So you're spending most of your time dealing with crisis. And the thing that's going to get you to the next level is the last quadrant, which is not urgent, but important. And that's the working on your business element that most people don't have the time to do or they deliberately don't do it because there's more fear working on the business because you're used to the crisis, you're used to everything else. That's kind of a deviation outside of your comfort zone.
- [20:41]
A
Well, I can even speak to my own experience with this. Is that because you really pulled me into creating content, it's hard to change, period. Once you move past that statement, it's when you're fixated and almost like living in this functioning chaos, it's very difficult to get out of the chaos unless you make intentional change. And it becomes, especially when that's where the conversation of like, you know, can I hire someone? Because at least like you're paying for a workout class is like, you know, the theory of like, and that's what we did, I think intelligently, is that we initially hired a video team to come in and shoot content. Because regardless of how I looked, regardless of how I felt that morning, it wasn't me putting my phone on a tripod. It was me paying real money to someone coming in and shooting and editing it. And that was only gonna happen that day, twice a month or once a month.
- [21:32]
B
And prepaid.
- [21:33]
A
Prepaid.
- [21:34]
B
So that you know, you're not prepared.
- [21:35]
A
And it's big money. Like it was, you know, like even if it was like eleven hundred dollars, like, that's way more than a workout class. Like, it's way more than a 40 buck lunch. Like, it's a lot of money. But the point to this is the way that I want to, like, I want to walk you through understanding your brand and walking through understanding brand pillars and content pillars allows you to see content as not urgent but important and reshape the way that your clients have power over you. Like it, it changes the power dynamic because to your point, like when you aren't investing in creating content and you rely on word of mouth and reputation alone, it's not a reputation, doesn't matter when you invest in your brand on socials, but it's a very different experience when you live or die by a client being able to hold you by the collar and they're going to refer you to someone or they're going to dangle that over you and you have no time in the day because you're responding to their requests that are not urgent and not important because they own you. And by not creating content and working through that, you can't flip the script. And that's what really, in creating content and investing in my brand, it's allowed me to have. We've never been busier, but I have more control over my schedule, my calendar, and just. I call it fu. Confidence. Like your mind, the way you see things, way you look at contracts, the way you look at money. Like. Like it completely changes when you have power because you don't need them. In the same way, like, you have joy in your job. You don't feel handcuffed by it.
- [23:04]
B
There's. There's some stuff to unpack there. Like the. Responding to crisis all day becomes a pattern people get used to. It doesn't transform your business.
- [23:13]
A
No.
- [23:13]
B
It keeps your business going.
- [23:14]
A
Yeah.
- [23:15]
B
And that's why you hit the ceiling. So. But people just get used to it. They like it. A crisis makes them feel like they're getting into it. And I think a lot of people, when they think about it, they'll see that that's what they're doing. Working on their business, taking three hours, walking away and doing something that'll transform your business is scary to a lot of people. They just say they don't have time for it because they're actually. They're actually scared to do it.
- [23:36]
A
Well, it's surviving versus thriving. Like, you genuinely don't think that you have time, but it's comical when you work through it and you have, like a very clear framework because it's. It's. I don't know how else to say it, but, like, you're just. Just you're not too busy.
- [23:51]
B
Or they. They kind of deselect themselves from content because they. They find something about their personality that says, well, I'm not that person. And I was just thinking about the hardware story. I could love 10 different hardware stores with 10 different owners based on their personality. I could see a guy with glasses sitting there in a hardware store. Somebody walks by and goes, where's this? And he just nail. He knows where everything is. He knows the answer to every question, but he does a deadpan. He's not an emotional, you know, effervescent person. But I would love that kind of theme. Or it could be that lady that I met who just seems so welcoming and cares about your family and your dog and all that. Whatever your personality is, you can convey yourself in a way that makes people attracted to your business.
- [24:32]
A
Well, this woman followed me on social media not too long ago, and she's this, like, legitimately senior citizen. Like, but she is.
- [24:41]
B
So she's not identifying as older?
- [24:42]
A
No, no. But she really takes care of herself, I think. I want to. I want to say she's out of New Orleans, and she owns, like, a clothing store, like, some kind of a boutique. She had followed me, and I was going to her page, and I was, like, just so impressed. Like, I just saw. I was, like, skimming, and it was just like, hundreds of videos of this woman in this boutique, like, with her little mini mic and talking about her items. And I was just so impressed that she was doing something that I wanted to support her because she was just showing up. Like, I wasn't focused on, like, criticizing her or finding ways that she could be better. Like, I was just. All I wanted to do was support her because she is someone who is showing up and trying. And I think so many. You're so, so many people, especially in industries that aren't, like, super sexy and interesting. Your bar isn't Kim Kardashian or top beauty influencer. Like, it's just showing up and making yourself uncomfortable and getting that first pass of people in your community and your customers to be supporting you and being cheering you on and being proud of you. And you go, you growing. And as adults, we don't put ourselves into uncomfortable situations enough to grow.
- [26:00]
B
It can almost be emotional when you think about how people hold them back. Because when you see somebody taking a risk to show their real self out there, I don't know why, it's kind of emotional for me to value that. But you're just. You're really taking a risk to get yourself out there. And it's funny for our listeners. Think of people who do that in your life. Like, you actually are so grateful that people who are a little bit different show themselves to you. And I can't remember, I was talking, oh, it was somebody on LinkedIn the other day. He's like, oh, I hate LinkedIn because people are, like, posting all these videos that aren't just about their businesses. And I was like, this is not a LinkedIn used to be a place where you put on a fake self to sell stuff, right? But I want to know who the person is that I'm hiring. From a business perspective, I want to know what they really think about things. And you could see that there's a resistance from some people who want this kind of anesthetic approach to selling so they can just give you sales pitch in the mirror without authenticity. But when I see somebody and I get to know who they really are, that you don't have to be perfect. I just like getting to know who you really are.
- [27:04]
A
As an aside, and just another deep note that I've actually never said out Loud before. Whenever I meet a business owner that's doing their own socials, that's. That's showing up and is trying one, they never regret it. Even if they. They know. Like, even if they qualify it with, you know, oh, you know, I only have a few hundred videos or I only have a few hundred followers. They never regret it, and they're always happier and they always enjoy their jobs more. And when I think about even in our. In our sphere, like, we're constantly pushing, like your sister, you know, the insurance mom, you know, Ashley, who's a mom of two and who does insurance, and we've made her her own TikTok, and, you know, she posts a few times a week and she's got a few hundred followers. Like, she's gotten so much more joy out of her job, out of her. Like, there's never been a person that's like, I've been doing this for six months and it's killed my business, or it's taking me away from my customers, or I'm depressed because I have to be better at my job.
- [28:11]
B
But there are lots of people who are struggling with social media, and it's become a negative in their life because they can't kind of get a grip on why it's not working or what they're doing. But they're not the ones putting themselves out there, but they're just struggling. Like, almost every business we. We meet, they're not satisfied with their.
- [28:29]
A
Social media, but they're struggling because they're not going to the root. They're not actually defining their brand. They're not actually consuming the right level of content that. That allows them to feel like it's manageable. Like, they're just disappointed that they're not 21 and amazing at Cap Cut or TikTok.
- [28:52]
B
The analogy just pops my mind. Whether I don't know if it's perfectly relevant is I've seen people who want to love golf and they never take a lesson and they just hate golf. But they go out and they play all the time. Yes, but it's frustrating. They don't like it, but they keep doing it because they think they have to do it in the industry. And then they go and they meet the right instructor, and all of a sudden they feel what a swing is supposed to be like. They're like, oh, my God, how long have I been doing this? And I didn't know what this is.
- [29:14]
A
Supposed to feel like, but I actually feel like. The better analogy, though, to what you're saying is they Went out and played a few times. They're good at most things and they're mad or they're annoyed that they're not actually good. Like, they're not actually showing up and trying. They're just get frustrated and pissed off that it's not easy. It's not easy. It's the same thing as working out or, like, trying to lose weight. You know, like, you try to eat healthy for three meals and then you, like, down a large pizza Friday night, and then it offsets all the calorie deficit that you would have lost. And then you're, like, pissed off that you're not losing weight. And it's like, it's exactly to your point.
- [29:48]
B
But getting a lesson early. Yeah, you just can make the experience of learning golf so much better. Right. It's like banging your head against the wall. Like, it feels good when you stop. There are people who are trying to learn a skill set without getting the right instruction early and are frustrated with it.
- [30:04]
A
I'm going to be blunt. I think that business owners are pissed off about socials is because they can't buy their way through it.
- [30:10]
B
Yeah, that's a good point.
- [30:11]
A
You know, they actually can't spend money for someone to do it in a way that they can just, like, not be bothered with it. Like, they can't. They can't outsource it or they can't bypass it.
- [30:21]
B
We should dig into that more because it's very true. Like, there's just a bunch who, like, hate it. And it's like, because you're so right, they just can't pay to fix it.
- [30:28]
A
No, it's, it's. Honestly, it's everybody. There's just. There's just different. There's just different versions of the beast. You know, like when people reach out and they're like, hey, you know, like, I know my who, I know my what, I know my why, but I don't. I'm struggling. I just, you know, I need support at your level in order to execute. I'm like, no, you don't. Like, how many? Like, where are the videos you've posted where, you know, you tell me. You know, you, you know, you're who, you know, you're what, you know your why, but you want me to do it for you. And like, yes, Like, I, you know, sure, I. I can help you, but at the end of the day, like, if you're not truly taking this and trying, you're just constantly going to be disappointed because you have this vision, but you're not Trying this vision.
- [31:09]
B
I remember the one client that you may be remembering on the who, because she came, she goes, oh, I know who my who is. And I'm like, how? I just know because I see, I'm like, have you ever done a video and asked people what they love about your business? No. You know, have you ever got any feedback? Like, what's your. They didn't even have a client feedback card. But she was so sure she knew her who, but she had never put herself out there and asked for real feedback from her customers. And video and content's a great way to better know your who because you can see who engaged with you, who comments, you know, it's a much better way to do it.
- [31:43]
A
Yeah, I completely agree. I also, too, it's really interesting. We talk so often about this concept of, you know, personal branding. And it's so easy to talk about it for realtors or for, you know, lawyers or for beauty owners or. Or whatever. But where I think that we've talked a lot offline but we haven't spoken about on the podcast is personal branding for athletes. It's really interesting that such a sexy industry is so behind on really leveraging such a small window of fame and notoriety by virtue of athletic performance. It's actually fascinating.
- [32:23]
B
What's so ironic about that is, are the people who advertise themselves as personal branding consultants for athletes don't have a personal brand.
- [32:32]
A
It's so bad.
- [32:32]
B
Their websites are disaster.
- [32:35]
A
We'll talk about this. You were talking to one of the most famous golfers of all time, and the person. His agent.
- [32:42]
B
Yeah. So his agent is a bit old, but not the most famous of all time. But this guy had done some work for some pros that were pros 20 years ago. So he's still doing the work, but now he said that he's into personal branding, but when you go on his website, you just immediately get the sense that they don't get personal branding. It's just very outdated. And in sports, I think it's being governed by this agent kind of mafia that controls what the athletes do. And so a lot of these agents have been doing it for 20 years. So they're. They actually haven't modernized. They kind of dabble in some things, but they don't really understand how you can 10x or 100x an athlete's value.
- [33:21]
A
No, I actually cracked it. Like, I know why it's so broken. Agents, they effectively are like, they're in the betting game. So they. They place their bets on 100 lottery tickets. And they know statistically if they sign up 100 junior players or 100 kids coming up, five or 10 of them will actually generate a contract, right? Like a sizable contract. So they basically work in volume. So they're constantly focused on puppy milling, like more people in to sign them up. Because it's a numbers game on the percentage of, of who's gonna make money. Now once basically the agent's focus is then skewed to one, bringing more people in and then two, who's making the money. The problem is people that are. Who is making the money tend to be the franchise players. So they're fine because they're doing brand deals. They're doing. They have a personal brand, right? Like Auston Matthews, Mitch Marner, like they.
- [34:18]
B
Have Steph Curry, no brand. It's astute. If you play that numbers game, the agents are going to make money because three out of the 100 are going to be franchise players and then they're going to make all of their money from those franchise players. The question is, who's left behind?
- [34:32]
A
And that's the problem.
- [34:33]
B
And it's, it's, it's, it's forward to the large middle that if you branded them properly, would probably get better contracts, better endorsements.
- [34:40]
A
But this is the problem with sports and it is changing. But the problem with sports is that because it's very much a team environment and it's got a very much these undertones of like this fraternization, anyone that's trying to stand out and be me is labeled as, as an individualist. You know, you're not a part of the team. You're only trying to care for yourself. And there's a lot of looking down, there's a lot of like frowning and shunning someone that's trying, like, because basically you're hired to kill it from 7 to 11, you know, during game time. And before 7 to 11, you don't exist. You're sleeping, you're eating food, you're rolling out, you're stretching, you're doing warmups during practices. Like, for you to be creating content, negotiating contracts, editing that means you're not focused on the game. You're not here in the game. And the problem is, is that all these athletes, especially in cities and towns where there's tons of small businesses that would love the exposure, that would love the eyeballs, aren't able to make more for their brand that exists in a very small window because they're so stressed about the team and they don't have the skills that's the other thing too is like these are people who've spent their entire lives training for a sport.
- [35:57]
B
The agents also are a little short sighted because they're used to revenue streams for them that come from certain types of brand deals. So they don't invest in the length of time it takes to build a brand. The kind of, I think the deep, more of a deeper intellectual point is sometimes old revenue streams will dictate your future strategy. And if those old revenue streams are still performing but they're going to die out, you kind of neglect your future strategy. And so the agents only tell the athletes to do things that they know they get paid for as opposed to saying, hey look, if you just invest two years doing this, it might not pay for two years, but there might be a giant upside at the end in terms of your brand.
- [36:34]
A
Well, the larger problem with the agents is that they're actually like nowhere to be found for the middle of the pack player. Right? Like they're just, they're not present, they're not available because there's just. The large majority of athletes are the middle of the pack. Like they, they are, they're what build the team. Right? It's not franchise players that built the team, it's, it's everybody else in between. And the issue with, with that is that the, the agent isn't actually thinking about the potential for truly the 60% of their roster that's like matured into pro players because you could be making a sizable cut off of all those team players and team members. But the problem is that they're not prepared to do the work because it's, and then the issue is then if the, if the, but then the athlete doesn't know what to do to, to basically broker and start those conversations. Because all these businesses that would be interested aren't primed to like reach out and like give free suits and like free, give free meals and like hook up. These players that have, that have built in micro audiences like if you're playing on the Calgary Flames, like you are a celebrity to Calgary into a Calgary based business, like that's, that's huge. And it doesn't have to be like Columbus or Columbus Ohio or any of these towns. Like these are, these are really important people to a small minority.
- [37:53]
B
You know what I'd love for us to get the opportunity if anybody knows an aspiring or professional NFL kicker, I think kickers have done the worst branding ever because on paper the kicker is responsible for the majority of points. Any super bowl team has to have Kicker, the best kicker. But name a kicker in the NFL, I can't. Right. But you. The kicker is putting the most numbers on the board in the average NFL game. Where is the branding? They never, there's no personality. I've never, I think there's been a couple, but I, I think there's a branding opportunity for a kicker to start to make a name for themselves.
- [38:27]
A
Well, there's just so much. My brain is spinning. There's so many cool angles. But you know what's actually really interesting? This marks the first year where the majority of the super bowl commercials that included players, they actually had equity in the businesses. So now football players specifically are negotiating equity in businesses in lieu of payment, which is a really big move for athletes because to get equity instead of just like a payment check really transforms their role.
- [39:00]
B
You know, it was a Jordan play, but I think you can do it at a micro level for some businesses.
- [39:04]
A
Well, it was a Jordan play, but then it was kind of ignored by everyone. Right. Like they went into kind of like high level licensing. The Kardashians really are the ones that changed it. Like they were the first to really come out and say like about 10 years ago that they were really flipping the switch with how they engage with brands and that it was on an equity basis like they owned the brands, opposed to it just being a licensing deal.
- [39:27]
B
Yeah, I definitely think parents of aspiring superstars should figure out how to brand early, you know what I mean? Like when the kid's 16 and 17, because it can double or 5x the value on signing if you're, if you've built a good personal brand before.
- [39:41]
A
Yeah, I mean I would, I think that anyone that is an athlete, if you send this to them, because we're also going to be working with a, basically a big brand in the US that's completely focused on helping. It's just a, it's basically like a video based series, like a masterclass. Initially was started by a gentleman who wanted to help women in sports, like monetize their own pages and personal branding. And he had a really interesting insight. He's like for the last few years, basically brands have been losing money, right. Investing in female sports. And he's like, at some point these donors are going to, they're gonna want an roi. They're not gonna want perpetual losing their money. So he's kind of trying to really pilot and position these female athletes being like influencers so that there's like another revenue. Like there's another basically angle for brands to be like, we can justify doing this because it's not just based on in game viewership, it's also based on eyeballs on their pages. So you're gonna see a really big push with wanting athletes to understand how to monetize, how to create content, how to develop a community, a tribe, an audience so that they've got other streams of revenue, which makes perfect sense.
- [40:58]
B
Definitely lots of opportunity.
- [41:00]
A
I have a lot of hot or not content. I'm going to kick us off actually with the Bay Claw controversy. So Baze, is that luggage brand that you love from Shay Mitchell, Canadian, she's.
- [41:12]
B
From Vancouver, trying to get the, the.
- [41:14]
A
Prize, the luggage and then you get pulled out. That, that's hilarious concept, brilliant, but was under a ton of controversial fire. And I actually think it's. Tell me what you're talking about. So remember we talked about Chelsea Park a few weeks ago and she had the sweaters and basically there's this growing movement where the general populace is so pissed off at brands prioritizing influencers for wanting to generate basically like get back their roi. So what happened was they had the gen pop line up so that they could do the human claw. And people waited hours to do this. And as people are waiting hours to do this, like influencers are just like jumping the line, being like clipped up, doing the claw. And then they're also taking luggage out of the ball pit to just hand to influencers who aren't even in line. And people were like losing their. Because people who waited three hours, like they basically ran out of luggage. And then the last set of luggage, this woman who was like having a meltdown, Shane Mitchell, had this like social moment where she's like, I'm gonna give the last luggage to the last person that standed in, standed in line. And effectively the woman who was the next in line, who would have gotten the luggage, who waited three hours, didn't get it.
- [42:32]
B
And the person who came two minutes.
- [42:34]
A
Ago, two minutes ago gets the luggage.
- [42:36]
B
They're not good thinking there.
- [42:37]
A
But it speaks to kind of. I think there's really a revolt against the influencers because brands are talking so much about community and building community and building community. And what makes these social moments real is that you have real humans that love your brand that are showing up. Like when I think about baes, I can't go to the airport without seeing like hundreds of women, of dads, of moms, like everyone wearing this brand. And then all you care about is this like 21 year old girl, pop beauty hack girl that may or may not have real 17,000 followers that you're handing it to so that you can at the end of your wash up say, you know you got over 500,000 real view metrics.
- [43:19]
B
This is a great topic even beyond the hot or not because is you just really insightfully laid out a human issue that business people don't get. The ROI is driving the boat. So they have a great idea. So there's a creative idea. But then this kind of one dimensional ROI makes them betray their actual customers, kind of prostitute themselves for likes that as you say, may or may not be right. And what's missing I think intellectually in a lot of these marketing departments or the people who are doing it is they don't really know how to war game what could happen. So like they make their plan, they've got a great creative and everybody just gets you know, so hyped about how good the creative is that they forget about the humans that are part of it. Because if, if somebody had presented that to me and, and I knew I. You're going to do more damage to your brand.
- [44:07]
A
Totally.
- [44:08]
B
You're going to have like when one legitimate customer posts a negative review, you know that that overdoes 50 positives, right? And one, one influencer is not going to overdo that. Like it's just very bad planning for them to have such a great creative and not to understand there'd be way more value just to go to a small town and do that like as a pop up and just change the lives of people. Right. Rather than try and make it celebrity worship.
- [44:31]
A
Well to me it's so simple in that you should have two boxes, right? Like first and foremost that is like an in real life activation. You're getting your social moment because Shay Mitchell is there and you have iPhones there. Like it's going to do well on the Internet. Like it's, it's got that wow factor. But outside of getting the clip for Shay Mitchell, like if you're having hundreds of people show up like that's your, like that's your social moment, that's your investment. Like you're doing it for kind of the post to then be also giving influencers luggage as like a gifting piece is like a different box to the overall strategy. Like you want influencers constantly unboxing so that the brand stays relevant. Like it keeps hype but it's to your point. It's like you're trying to layer on too much and it just becomes greed. Like if you're doing something for your community do it for your community. You also get the added benefit that it's a social moment. Like if you're gonna choose to do something that's a hundred thousand dollars, accept that ROI for what it is.
- [45:34]
B
This is where Rory, if he was in this conversation, I think would agree with us. If you create an expectation in somebody and you don't meet it, the resentment is huge. It's better to have a lower benchmark and over perform. But when people stand for three hours to get a base bag and they see somebody walk by and get it and they don't get it, you have created hatred. And that hatred has way more power to hurt your brand. As opposed to. They just showed up somewhere, surprised everybody. Shane was like interacting with normal humans. No influencers. You can deal the influencers after where you can do a special influencers bobbing for dollars event. Right. Where it's only influencers.
- [46:13]
A
But that's typically what you do.
- [46:15]
B
Right.
- [46:15]
A
It's like the day before, it's like, you know, and then like the second day or third day is open to the public.
- [46:19]
B
But yeah, so it's a hot on creative. It's a not on execution.
- [46:23]
A
Totally. The next thing on hot or not is Range Rover moves into clothing. So Range Rover has launched a scarf line.
- [46:34]
B
Okay. I have a beautiful idea for their marketing campaign if you want it to be funny from an advertising campaign because we all know Range Rovers get stolen all the time. Right. I would have people like breaking in to steal my Range Rover blanket. You know what I mean? Like, I would kind of play on that because it makes it look like Range Rovers are in there.
- [46:52]
A
Okay. What you just said would have been so much smarter. Range Rover blanket collection. Yeah, right. Like, like having these like chic colored blankets that are the coolest blankers that.
- [47:02]
B
Everybody is selling them so they can steal. They can sell stealing them so they can sell it to China. Like, you know, the whole kind of car theft ring that's happened with land. With Land Rover and Range Rover.
- [47:12]
A
Yeah, but that's only in Canada. This is like a. This is a European.
- [47:14]
B
Range Rovers are the most stolen cars in the world.
- [47:16]
A
But everywhere is this happening everywhere. I don't know if all of our friends. I mean, right now there's a huge if. I mean, I think you guys have to tell us if this is happening where you are. But it's like, like the biggest problem right now in Ontario is there's like a car being stolen every minute. And like it's was for the longest time. Range Rovers and the police are Nothing about it.
- [47:36]
B
They'll go to a high end mall and they'll put a tracker under a Range Rover or a Land Rover and then when it goes and parks in the garage, they go and actually break into the house just to get the keys.
- [47:45]
A
Absolute like hit jobs like one minute or less.
- [47:47]
B
But then a minute later they're on a.
- [47:49]
A
So Philip is saying if like the blanket gets stolen because it's getting sent to the seed container over overseas. But okay, I mean that might be a bit complicated for their, for their advertising, but it's not. I don't understand what made Range Rover get into a scarf line. And there's no story to it. It's not like they're doing top like convertible Range Rovers and doing kind of like a, a Jackie Kennedy like over the hair.
- [48:12]
B
That would be cool. But if you went back to the, the Land Rover story, they were known as a desert jeep. Right. So kind of maybe capturing some of what made Land Rover famous in having a scarf for the elements, as you said, that would be cool. But that collection of pictures just makes me think, makes me think it's expensive.
- [48:31]
A
To me it makes me think they're desperate, you know, like they're trying to do something. But it really didn't have a so what? Or a thought. And it's a no, you know what?
- [48:39]
B
It's an example of bloated companies that have too much money. They hire too many people. So somebody in their marketing department is trying to find let's make scarves something about themselves and it's actually diluting their brand and making them not focus on what they need to. I hope somebody at Range Rover is listening to this.
- [48:54]
A
All right, next one is Peron and Formula one. So Peron non alcoholic, partnered with Charles Leclerc and Lewis Hamilton. Peron puts non alcoholic beer in the driver's seat for racing. Tie in. The campaign marks the second year of partnership between the Formula One team and Peron Nastro Auro. 0.0%.
- [49:16]
B
My initial reaction is don't try to put, you know, a square peg into a round hole. And so they're trying to make something that is appropriate in certain circumstances as cool as F1. And I just don't think that square peg fits in the round hole for that brand.
- [49:32]
A
It's, I mean their whole thing is like it's the Italian way, you know, and it's the, the Ferrari drivers and so bragging about driving beard while their driver is driving a car.
- [49:43]
B
But that connection is there, but it's not actually a powerful human Connector because if I'm a Formula one driver and I've had a hard race, I want to have a good, a good drink.
- [49:52]
A
It's not obviously, but where that in quotation works theoretically is that current Peroni consumers that enjoy Formula one feel a strengthened cool factor because as they're drinking it, they feel like they have a story to tell. Right. And that's what a lot of these like generic big brands do is that. But it allows consumers. It's actually really interesting they talk about this and how brands grow in that Coca Cola's like frequent drinkers like who they kind of consider like their tier one customers actually only will drink Coca Cola like two to four times per year. Like it's actually a high consumption Coca Cola drinker is actually a pretty low consumption drinker.
- [50:38]
B
Well, it used to be people drank 10 Diet Cokes a day.
- [50:41]
A
No, no. But that's not, that's not the point. It's that that statistically when you look at numbers, it's like it's almost like statistically impossible to find people that consume at that rate. So anyone that's drinking two to four, their goal is just to get it to six. So they're just trying to people that already consume Coca Cola to be because they've already gone through the priming of seeing the products so many times. They basically just want to do something that keeps the brand top of mind. So if you're already someone that it's and it's the Coke model what Peroni is doing. So if you already are consuming Peroni, let's say you buy it twice per year, three times per year and you see the ad of Charles leclerc and Lewis Hamilton, it's more likely to stick with you and you're more likely to not even necessarily buy more, but just ensure you buy that second case that year.
- [51:31]
B
It's like on one level, like nascar, like beer is involved in. They have those type of affiliations. So to have Formula one do it, you know, it doesn't not make sense.
- [51:41]
A
But I'm just, I'm underscoring that it, it actually is outdated. It actually there it's, it underscores that it's very difficult for the average business owner to learn from the brands at this level. And a lot of the marketing books and branding books are truly not relevant to your brand. And when I analyze the campaigns at this level through reading those books and speaking to like Rory Sutherland, it shows you how almost bad the thinking is because they have so much money.
- [52:09]
B
My gut feeling don't try to make non alcoholic beer as cool as alcoholic beer. Make it its own coolness, you know what I mean? Like, but that's gorilla. What I would do is Formula one is high performance. Right? What you put in your engine affects how that engine performs. What you put in your body affects how you perform. We have high performance people, we drink high performance drinks. Right. That tastes amazing. I would just not try to kind of cleverly make it look like it's as cool as alcoholic, make it its own category of cool.
- [52:37]
A
But here's the takeaway though. The reason why these brands can't do good marketing or good branding is because they're handcuffed by one, bureaucratic systems and two, that they have to do the RFP model. So the way that they have to like do the pitching, get the contracts, how they have to develop their budgets, how they have to go through the process, develops more or less the same campaign creative with the same level of impact, which is like low impact. And what you're saying and you're. And the core takeaway, the person listening to this is you need to be dialed in to guerrilla or different. Because these big brands are just, they're playing, they're playing an outdated game. They're playing a different game because there's no way to even measure really how successful like that campaign is because it's just the, when you get to that generic stage, it's not that much growth year over year. It's just they're big brands. So to your point, it's like, but you need to be coming with more of an agile guerrilla approach to your marketing in order to stand out.
- [53:41]
B
Like, I've studied guerrilla warfare and guerrilla business strategies and the beauty of guerrilla strategy is you can get 10 times done with 100 times less. And these big corporations are, oh my.
- [53:52]
A
God, it was like that stats right now.
- [53:54]
B
But these giant brands are so used to this that they're dropping millions of dollars on commercials that have questionable effectiveness. Whereas if you have one tenth of that budget, you could get 10x the results by just saying something interesting. Doing things differently.
- [54:06]
A
Yes. It's literally that. That movie we were watching the other day where the intro quote was, NASA spent $20 million to engineer a pen that could write with upside down when they're in space. And the Russians use a pencil. Yeah, like it's, it, it's the. Effectively the same thing. It's like analyzing these Peroni and Coke campaigns. Unless they're like, you know, Coke used to have great campaigns. They don't anymore. And they're effectively spending $20 million too. Have a pen that weighs upside down when you could just use pencil. Okay, next.
- [54:35]
B
Beautiful segue.
- [54:36]
A
Okay, next is Kim Kardashian did a Tesla shoot.
- [54:41]
B
Ah.
- [54:42]
A
So Kim Kardashian did this whole shoot with Perfect magazine, and it was with.
- [54:50]
B
The Tesla bots omnibus.
- [54:51]
A
It was also with the cybertruck. She was, like, taking a selfie with.
- [54:56]
B
The don't hate me Cybertruck's coming in a couple weeks.
- [54:58]
A
I know he ordered a cybertruck guy's sos. So she's, like, making love with one of his robot.
- [55:04]
B
Okay.
- [55:05]
A
And she's, like, holding hands with him at the pool.
- [55:08]
B
That's actually kind of a vibey photo shoot that I wouldn't expect.
- [55:12]
A
Well, it's interesting for the political landscape too, right? Because, like, is she politically affiliated? I feel like Elon Musk is really, like, controversial, especially in California and LA and where she exists. This was like, really a political move for her. And I want to break it down.
- [55:31]
B
It's fuck you confidence, as you said. But, like, when you. When you stop caring about what, you know, your detractors think, you. You have the liberty to just reinforce your. Your own community.
- [55:43]
A
Yeah.
- [55:43]
B
And that's what I like about it is it's different, but, you know, it's. It. It does speak to her kind of cutting edge element. And so I like the aesthetic of the photos, and I'm a little bit biased because I got a cybertruck coming.
- [55:55]
A
Well, you love. Yeah, you love Elon Musk.
- [55:56]
B
Although I don't like how it looks. I'm gonna wrap it, but I just like new tech. I like things that push the boundaries.
- [56:02]
A
What she does do well and what that family does do well is they understand how to make a conversation. You know, like, they're. They're constantly at the point where you're discussing something. Like, they're always dropping it at kind of like the right moment so that it's creating controversy and noise. And it's actually what Kanye west does well, but has taken it too far. Like what he did at the Emmys or at the. Where his, like, his wife drops the dress and she's like, fully naked. And then he also. You probably didn't see this, but, like, he has a Shopify for his Yeezy, and he had one product on there. It was like a white T shirt with just straight up swastika. And it was like, for 20 bucks. And it got like, shut down because, like, everyone was freaking out. That's like Yeezy. This like, brand that used to be so cool that, like, has a lot of, like, aftermarket sale value would be promoting swastikas. But what it shows you, though, is, like, what Kanye west is doing wrong or doing right, but in an extreme way is he's making himself the center of a news story. Like, he's just doing things to just be a headline and to keep himself, like, top of mind. He just did a video, he did a song he dropped, and it's about his daughter with P. Diddy. But it just. He's doing things to make. He's trying to be infamous. He's trying to make that happen.
- [57:21]
B
I don't think that's this at all. And a company that doesn't have a marketing budget but makes products that stand out because of their exceptionalism and their CEO is essentially their marketer. And we can see how that can affect demographics, because I think within a year or two, we've seen Tesla owners being part of one demographic, and this is where everybody attacks it. But I think it could be actually indirectly brilliant.
- [57:45]
A
Yeah.
- [57:45]
B
Is all the people that would have bought a Tesla who are on one side of the political spectrum bought it.
- [57:50]
A
Yeah.
- [57:50]
B
Right. And they last forever. So what's he done now? Now he's got Kid Rock buying a Tesla. Right. And Arnold Schwarzenegger and all these other people who would never have bought a Tesla before. Right. They wanted a big diesel Hemi pickup truck, and now they just opened up a whole new market. And Kim has probably sensed that there's some zeitgeist behind where he's taking technology that is. Is beyond the shortsightedness of where people are.
- [58:15]
A
But I'm saying, though, it's on the same line of I'm going to do things that are controversial, that are going to get people talking so that I'm at the center point of the conversation. Because this isn't a shoot with Tesla. It's a cover shoot for Perfect magazine. And she chose.
- [58:31]
B
Yes, that's what I'm saying.
- [58:32]
A
A controversial brand alignment, but it's brilliant.
- [58:35]
B
She's with the best robot in the world. She's ahead of the trend. She's not responding to the zeitgeist of where all the people are now.
- [58:43]
A
Totally agree.
- [58:44]
B
To the same pool.
- [58:45]
A
I think it's hot.
- [58:46]
B
It's. For me, it's 100% hot.
- [58:48]
A
Hot all the way. All right, moving on to the next one. This is less of a hot or not. I just wanted to do a quick touch on it, but Poppy was sold to Pepsi.
- [58:56]
B
The end of the brand Poppy was.
- [58:58]
A
Sold for Pepsi for $2 billion.
- [59:01]
B
Wow.
- [59:02]
A
And. But Pepsi and Coke, all of these big brands are coming in and buying up these huge health food products. So Simple Mills was recently purchased for a huge amount of money. So was Siete chips. And it's where they've rolled out more line cereals because nobody's buying Oreos anymore. Nobody's buying like dunkaroos like PepsiCo and Coca Cola are conglomerates for sub product. They're effectively like Procter and Gamble Campbell. Like they own a ton of different things. Like no one's drinking pop anymore. So it shows you the trend that clean healthy living is gone generic.
- [59:38]
B
To me it just shows the trend of a brand that dared to be different. And probably for the first couple years a bunch of people are like, what are you doing? That's ridiculous. Who do you think you are? You know? But they, they invested in doing something and then these big corporations can't build their own brands anymore. So they have to.
- [59:54]
A
But that was never their play.
- [59:55]
B
Yeah.
- [59:55]
A
Their play was always acquisition. It just, it's interesting what they're choosing to acquire. It's been acquisition for a long time.
- [60:03]
B
How do you know that?
- [60:04]
A
After cigarette.
- [60:06]
B
So I didn't mean poppies play.
- [60:09]
A
No, no, no. Like the big, like the big companies like Kraft and after cigarettes were banned, they started buying up all of these. Yeah. Sugar based and Nabisco.
- [60:17]
B
Yeah.
- [60:18]
A
And then effectively Pepsi and Coke started to do the same thing. And it just shows you. The reason why I think this is interesting is a lot of people that listen to us are they own some form of like a clean or health and wellness business or they own a business that needs to integrate into the clean vertical. And it's, it's, it shows you that the make America Healthy Again movement that came at the end of the election and is now in full swing is hitting a different demographic than it's ever hit before. Like it's becoming a general understanding to live and be healthier. Which is fascinating. Yeah.
- [60:52]
B
It's this big business grows to a point where they, they have a monopoly on shelf space. Right. And then, but they're not, they're not, they're not using any ingenuity to change things. What's sad to me is that you have these companies that build great businesses and then they just can't say no to the great dollar value. And then I believe Siete will go down, Poppy will go down. It won't be the same level because those companies have experts at cost saving, scaling, like saving money.
- [61:24]
A
Through scamming, skimming the dollar. I agree with you. When businesses go public, they lose their secret sauce. But I do think it's different when a conglomerate purchases something that was already working. Because if, let's say for example, poppy is filtered water, stevia and like something else, like it's, it's hard to cut those corners, right? Like when it comes to like simple healthier foods, there's less ingredients, like simple meals. Ingredients is like watermelon seeds, it's like organic whole flour. Like how do you cut those corners?
- [61:59]
B
Well, I don't know. I think some of those brands use good ingredients, pure ingredients. They had some. The Siete brand to me was a family business that focused on getting good, healthy ingredients. Once you sell it to a giant conglomerate, they're going to find a way to get GMO stuff in there, recategorize it so they don't have to say it is, and then you'll just notice a subtle change in the quality of the product over the years.
- [62:24]
A
Hmm, I wonder. I think that's the. What's been interesting since the Ciete acquisition is that they've introduced more line cereals. So I think it's actually quite cool that when I go to the grocery store, like I can get gluten free taco shells and I can get like basically healthier seasoning salt. Like that didn't exist before. Categorically, like when you wanted to get a hard shell at the grocery store, it was only the old El Paso. So it's like they're now offering a more premium alternative. And it seems to feel on brand, it just, it didn't have the inventory and the resources that it once had.
- [62:56]
B
I do not share your confidence that big corporations will stay true to the brand pillars that built it by standing.
- [63:03]
A
No, I don't disagree with that. I just, I, I don't know how they will be able to cut corners without, I guess, seeing it. Like this is the first time this has ever really happened with health food.
- [63:13]
B
Well, no, it's not. You see it with eggs, it says free range. Well, what free range means is that for five minutes a day the gate has to be open on a giant poultry farm. Oh yeah, right. All they have to do is open the door so the chickens can go out once a day for an hour and you can call them free range. It's not actually a free range chicken in terms of what the consumer thinks. So don't underestimate big corporations ability to kind of sell the, you know, they buy the brand and all the Brand equity that's been bought by the family owned business that cares. And then they'll just find a way to turn it into a bean counter festival.
- [63:47]
A
From my perspective, do you think it's.
- [63:48]
B
Hot or not then them being bought? I don't think it's hot or not. I think Poppy was hot and I congratulate them for their exit strategy and making a lot of money. And it's an inspiration to anybody else who's building a brand. I think the big corporations are going to ruin it.
- [64:01]
A
I think it's a hot move because if I'm going to go out and I want something that's a treat, I'd rather have like larger distribution access to what I think is like a healthier treat. And that's what Poppy was already kind of trending. Like they got themselves into Chipotle. They're like, if I go out to a fast food spot, I would rather have more options like a Poppy at. At my dispose. And like that comes to it being with a bigger company and a bigger brand like a PepsiCo that has a distribution channel because that's also what Pepsi and Coke are, right? Like their rival distribution network.
- [64:35]
B
But I will always choose an independent brand over the other side.
- [64:39]
A
I completely agree. To me though, it's a box to check. It's a role to play. I don't drink pop. I wouldn't even order an iced tea when I go out. But if they had a Poppy in the fridge at a Freshie or at a Chipotle, I'm going to grab that and water it down. That to me is a cool treat. But to your point, when you're talking about a local small business, no, I don't need Poppy in there. But where do we go that has PepsiCo products, not small businesses. Okay, so last one is Magic bullet got a rebrand. And I think I showed you this photo, but it was interesting because I saw. So I was out and about. I was in about. I was out at Canadian Tire, funny enough just to make the non Canadian listeners chuckle. And I was. It's while I was listening to how brands grow. Basically what they talk about in the book is that rebrands are very difficult for brands once they reach like their tipping point of like critical mass for like large scale understanding. Because rebrands basically kind of like resort the product and position in the customer's brain and they need to reconnect the new brand image to the product. So basically when you go through a rebrand, your customer can forget who you are because you Visually look different when you're in the grocery store and when they're distracted. And when I saw the Magic Bullet packaging, I felt like it was a perfect case study of that exact thing they were talking about happening.
- [66:11]
B
First impressions. It looks like a diaper bag to me, having had kids, but I had the Magic Bullet back in the day.
- [66:18]
A
When I was on tv when I was in school.
- [66:19]
B
Like, when it was sold on tv, so did I. And it was innovative. It made being a student. You know what I mean? It gave you more options as a student, made you cooler. And so I love that I would have kept the retro. I don't know if they did it, but from a business perspective, it's an example how processing consultants can ruin a brand. Because people are like, oh, we gotta change. Well, it's working. Like, maybe they identified that they needed to do a rebrand, but then you bring in consultants and they tell you you have to do a rebrand, and they give you all these options. And then a lot of people love choice, so they feel empowered when they can make a choice. So all of the leadership, they make a choice. I don't know if they tested that against people, but that. That. That just does not look like something I'd want to buy or that would draw my attention to it. And to your point, it doesn't remind me of what Magic Bullet had done up until that point.
- [67:08]
A
Yeah, right. It's really.
- [67:10]
B
It looks like a vampire blood mixer or something. I don't know.
- [67:13]
A
It's complicated for me because on one hand, when I was at that shelf, all the other competitive product, because they had a novel product, they were the first to inch, they disrupted that industry. But all the other competitor products have actually kind of taken a nod at what their brand once was. Like, that white background, the kind of the black text with, like, highly visual images, like, very compelling to look at. And what's difficult is that the Magic Bullet actually no longer has a usp. So it's interesting to me that they would focus on rebranding instead of, like, enhancing their product line. Like, to me, Ninja really took their, like, took their brand position because Ninja now, like, really offers innovative, like, quality products that are like, that are like 11 and 1 or 10 in ones. Because I was the magic bullet, told TV Play, it was like, it's salads, soups, smoothies, sauces.
- [68:05]
B
Like Ninja. That word captures something, right? And if I was redoing Magic Bullet, I would focus on. A bullet is more effective than a Ninja. Ninja is cool. But a bullet is still Better.
- [68:16]
A
Yeah. Right.
- [68:16]
B
And I would focus on faster, more powerful, more effective. The magic bullet beats a ninja every time. I didn't even do a commercial. I think there was one in a funny movie once where a ninja comes out. It's like. But he pulls out a gun, just goes and shoots him. Right. Like, I would kind of.
- [68:30]
A
Oh, that's funny.
- [68:31]
B
I would go down that line. But the fact that my first reaction, too, there's a visceral reaction that exists in marketing, and it's related to the color therapy you talk about and how we use color in film. Right. And we recently watched Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, which is one of the first movies to really fixate on color to evoke feelings. And. And it's a great movie to watch. I think you can attest to that. But when I look at that stark red, you know, it's almost like blood. Like, there's something about it that doesn't make me feel.
- [69:00]
A
Well, the packaging is such a miss because, like, the product doesn't stand out.
- [69:05]
B
No, it's blood on red on red. It's like red on red.
- [69:07]
A
But then the other thing that's interesting is that because they went lowercase magic, and, like, it actually looks like a school project, like, to redo the rebrand. Like, I can't believe it got approved. Because. Because it being lowercase, it doesn't pop. It's like, once you're like.
- [69:22]
B
Well, they think it pops because it's red, but the eyes don't touch with color.
- [69:25]
A
Yeah. Like, when you see all the color on the shelf, you're overwhelmed. And then it actually makes you not want to buy because, like, it's so repulsive, like, how much color it is.
- [69:35]
B
I know. It's offensive.
- [69:36]
A
It's offensive.
- [69:37]
B
It pushes the red. Like, that type of red evokes a certain thing. It's a fiery. You know, it's not like my clean kitchen. Even though some red. Some red appliances can work.
- [69:47]
A
Even this, like, create, then recreate, period.
- [69:51]
B
No, that person should be fired.
- [69:53]
A
And then also create, then recreate.
- [69:54]
B
What.
- [69:55]
A
What does that mean? Especially when they're making a smoothie. And then the next thing is, like, includes. And the font is so small. And it's. Right. Justified. So it. It doesn't even, like, excite you for what's included.
- [70:07]
B
That is an ultimate design failure.
- [70:09]
A
It's so bad. And then like, lastly, to your point, on, like, the red appliances. Red appliances in the kitchen has been owned by luxury, right? Like the wolf knobs or like, the KitchenAid Red Iconic Mixer. Those represent luxury in the kitchen. Nothing about this is luxury.
- [70:27]
B
This is what every student should have in their dorm room or in their apartment.
- [70:31]
A
But it also doesn't make you feel like you can even really tell what the color is because they did so much color in the background.
- [70:37]
B
Like, no, it's like red in the container on a red.
- [70:39]
A
Casey, Is it red? You know, like, is it. Is it black? Like, you know, like. And then on the top it says new look. Like, no shit. You felt like you needed to put a new look sticker in lowercase blue on the top, right? In, like, in case you missed it. In case you missed it. Which it's not even really that legible. Like, the kiwi is easy to see.
- [71:00]
B
Who. I'm just fascinated by the people behind the scenes who give the okay to that okay. Like, I got a brilliant idea here. We're going to put a blue bubble in the top left corner. It's impossible to read. That says new look. Like, you don't need that to see New look. Right. Like, you need your product to be recognizable, which speaks to your book. Right? Can I recognize the brand legacy that I've come to know it by? And have I changed it to improve the brand look? Right. But a completely new look just. It's a giant knot. And we should hashtag that company. So. So somebody there reaches out.
- [71:34]
A
I don't think they found any money left. They probably.
- [71:37]
B
They spelled it all on Redding, which is expensive, on a phone call.
- [71:40]
A
Oh, my God. They spent so much money on this rebrand and nobody's buying the product. Like, oh, my gosh. So that wraps up this week's Hot or Not and this week's episode of Art of the Brand.
- [71:50]
B
Support the Courts. Let us know if you like it and leave us some comments.
- [71:53]
A
Yeah, send it to my link camille-moore.com you can access the link, and if you end up taking it, tag me and I'll see you next week.