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- [00:00]
A
So what happened Astrid? Why are we having this dynamic conversation about marketing and pr?
- [00:06]
B
So this conversation came by very honestly. I have worked in public relations, communications and marketing and the hybrid marcom role. And I would say there's a confusion amongst ourselves as practitioners, business leaders and other, even team members about who does what, what do they mean, how do they work together. And I wrote a LinkedIn post, really short and sweet one, about how VR and marketing are need to be complementary but are not the same things. And specifically that product marketing is not a news release, product marketing is not PR and in fact if used incorrectly can actually hurt your reputation, cheapen your brand. And within the past few days it has been actually heartwarming and overwhelming and also eye opening that people around the world, there have been hundreds of thousands of views, hundreds of shares, so many comments amongst each other. And it's very clear to me that this, this pain point and this irritant is across the board. And if we can't even agree upon who does what, whose purviews, what, what, how do we even define ourselves then how can we rely on companies to do that and to create right teams and to give teams the right tools to, to do their best work?
- [01:44]
A
No, I mean for anyone listening to this in, in the industry this is a ongoing battle because whether you're on the internal side and like, lack of higher up understanding of like the delineation between them or if you're on the agency side and having delusional clients trying to communicate that it's the same thing. And it's been an ongoing battle but it's, I still find it so interesting how there is such, such a true lack of understanding and awareness between kind of the two different camps.
- [02:20]
B
Definitely. And I had seen that and felt that personally before but now I know that the sentiment and feeling is held across the board globally. And people that weighed in were, were, you know, marcom people, PR people, comms people, marketing, traditional marketing people and out everyone seemed to agree. The common bond was that there's an agreement that what is currently going on is not quite working. It's not the right synergy. But how do we help our sectors, really our areas of expertise, how do we work together? How do we make sure that we can all do our best work? It's complimentary, synergistic, we're not in silos. But also not stepping on each other's toes.
- [03:15]
A
Totally. Well, I think what's really interesting is it's always been confusing.
- [03:19]
B
Yeah.
- [03:20]
A
I think with the rise of social media and how important the message is for the medium. The confusion between the two has increased. Right. Because so much of effective marketing today has an element of messaging to it. Right. And yes, there was a great comment on your. Your post where it's like the. Where you pay is marketing and where you parade.
- [03:45]
B
Yeah, I loved that. It was fantastic.
- [03:51]
A
And to me, the analogy is like, you know, for. For so long, pr, if you, like, used a boat, like PR is almost that, like that mouthpiece trying to make an announcement, trying to see if what they're announcing, like stick sticks, and is like, interesting. But marketing is more of the engine. It's more of the sales. Yeah, but where it's confusing is in order for the marketing to do better, you need to have a stronger message. But then the question becomes, when is that messaging or that comms? When is it PR and when is it effective marketing? And that's totally.
- [04:28]
B
Here we are.
- [04:30]
A
So what is your opinion on that?
- [04:33]
B
I have to say this one. I have spent many, many days, many hours, many really, of the last few years really thinking about it, and I think you've really, really hit the nail on the head in what you were just saying. I think pr, public relations, comms, media relations is really the same thing with just calling it different names. I think it hinges upon reputation building, trust building, credibility building, like really storytelling, telling the story of. Of who the company is. But I say this, while I say this, I also think those elements are also intricately linked to brand. So the more I think about it, the more I think PR and brand like, are super closely linked. But then you've got marketing. How does it fit in, and where the heck. Who owns social media?
- [05:36]
A
I'm gonna say, though, when I think about it more deeply, I don't know if I completely agree. Like, when I think about pr, right? Like public relations, where I've struggled in my job of being an agency owner and being effectively like, for hire for different brands, is that a lot of brand owners think that because they're announcing a new product or a new location that, that they deserve, like, media access. And the biggest, the biggest pushback is constantly like, no, there has to be something newsworthy.
- [06:11]
B
There has to be something.
- [06:12]
A
So what? Unless it's like Louis Vuitton opening up a new store in a market that they've never like. Unless the brand itself is a story. Yeah, is a story. But what I think about, like, in modern pr, it's like you're almost your storytelling. You're providing something that's news and noteworthy, and you're kind of like casting a net, right? And the idea is that of that casting a net and something that's a bit more authentic, ideally organic, native to that platform, it provides an opportunity of like interest for the brand. And then from there when you go further down, kind of your researching hole, which is like going to Instagram, going to TikTok, maybe going to their website, that's where branding needs to support the story and where marketing needs to continue that message. But it's telling the message in a different way.
- [07:07]
B
I really like, I really like the way that you've, you've articulated that. I think that it really interweaves everything really well. And I think that that common question, that common request from business leaders like well that should be a news release. That should be a news release. Like well actually where's the news? And here's where, I think here's where a lot of the issues start to come out. It's like, well, they have a news release in their head and you as the practitioner in the field, you're like okay, well tell me more. And you try to draw out a story, maybe you try to link a specific thing to let's say a bigger growth story, a bigger growth narrative or something that, that's a bit more interesting or palatable. But if you can't do that, if you can't justify something as new, innovative, interesting, news grabbing, newsworthy, attention seeking, then it's self serving. And in fact that news release or that kind of media relations outreach will not set you up for success. You as an individual practitioner, your personal brand and reputation, the company's brand and reputation. I think what we also need to talk about is media relations in the traditional sense of pr in that you pitch stories to media with the hope that it gets picked up, whether that be in a composite story, whether that be a feature story or just a relationship building moment. I think journalists are so smart, they, they have immense knowledge in their fields and they also know, I think, I think they understand psychology and behavior very well that if people answer in a bit of a cagey way or anything that denotes that they're possibly hiding something, then now you've got that you've piqued their spidey sense. You've piqued, you've piqued their interest, but not in the right way. So I think there's an element of is it newsworthy, is it right to be pitching to media and are there potentially any landmines that if you do have this great idea, this, this something that you do think is news? Are there landmines that you might potentially get caught in? If your media relations work is successful and you do talk to a journalist, like, are you actually ready for it? And there's that element too.
- [09:42]
A
I feel like, as I've been listening to you, I've had a breakthrough through explaining it to people who feel like it's. It's confusing. Because it is actually confusing to me.
- [09:52]
B
Like, the both of us don't even quite. We're aligned, but not a hundred percent.
- [09:57]
A
No, because. Because I also think that the role of PR has also changed. Like, that's another interesting element to this too, right? Is that prior to the digital age, the way that you made your business or your restaurant stand out was to generate public relations, was to generate press, right? And with the digital age, with socials, like, that's what makes it complicated, is PR now manifests through different forms. But I feel like this is the best way to explain it. So recently in Toronto, we got a Nobu. And the Nobu has both a hotel and a restaurant. Now, if they were hiring us to do the pr, Nobu coming to Toronto is in and of itself news and noteworthy because it's such an iconic brand, right?
- [10:46]
B
Yes. No arguments here. Only excitement.
- [10:49]
A
Only excitement. But the way that they would do that story, the way that they would cover the story is they would cover the who, what, where, why and how. So who is behind the Nobu project? What is interesting and noteworthy. So they would talk about Chef Nobu, which you've seen a ton of press over. You would talk about the menu, you would talk about the building, you talk about the architectural design. So you're not talking about. It's about Nobu, but you're building this story and news around this article so that once you're done reading it, the only thing that the reader is saying to themselves is, holy shit, I need to go to the new Nobu.
- [11:24]
B
Yes, let's get that coveted reservation. And I really. I love that example. And if there's any, let's say, a lot of times when there's a big launch in Toronto or in Canada, it's like, okay, were there Canadian designers chosen or is there Canadians? Like, okay, we use Canadian wood for the furniture or whatever. There's like, elements of trying to make it local somehow, too, in the story that then you can layer on.
- [11:51]
A
And that's where I was going with it. It's like. But when you think about. Think about the marketing now, the marketing needs to, like, chop it up and put that into a Bunch of different bite sized, digestible, sellable moments.
- [12:05]
B
Not an easy task.
- [12:06]
A
No. Yeah, but, but think about like social media, right? Like each social post would be like one featuring nobu, several featuring key items on the menu, one featuring the architect, maybe the Canadian wood that was used. So it's almost like PR is, to go back to the analogy, like PR is, is the one crafting the entirety of it as if it was a news story. Marketing takes that, chops it up into like 50 pieces to put it through email blasts, put it through socials. But the way in which socials communicates it is almost dumbed down. And that's where they're not the same is that PR is crafting the story. PR is leading the narrative. It's communicating in a way that's different because it's a different part of the funnel. Right. Like the socials are much further down and it's the delineation of taking the pieces of what priority is the architect of that brings marketing into the fold. So it's the same table. Yeah, we're sitting at the same table. But different chairs. Yeah, chairs, different roles.
- [13:12]
B
Exactly. I think that you've hit the nail on the head. I love that I, that actually excites me and I feel like. Yeah, I, I think that's exactly, exactly bang on. There's still that question for me and I've, I've seen it float in so many different places. I've had it on my plate. I've not had it on my plate. But social media, like who, where does that go? Who owns that? Is it purely marketing? Is it part marketing, part comms? It's a bit of a. I think this, this is going to be something that organizations. I think it depends upon the size, but I think place are gonna have to figure this out.
- [13:55]
A
But it's also the quality of the person, right?
- [13:57]
B
Yeah.
- [13:58]
A
Marketing can't often do pr, but PR could pilot marketing. Like that's kind of the different way of looking at it. Like if you're. And that's the struggle that I've been in is that like a lot of places will have internal marketing when they reach out to hire me or to hire you. It's like a service in addition to. And then they have too many cooks in the kitchen that are providing opinions. But marketing, because like from the lens that mark, whether it's right or wrong, like marketing is seeing it through the lens of. Well, these four posts really perform well for us traditionally. And it's. And it goes back to understanding the sales funnel. It's like. Well sure, like once they're following you, once you've generated that interest, somehow the posts in which perform are different than getting that public interest. Yeah, right. So, and that's kind of where that's the important. So like that's really what it comes down to. At the heart of this post is anyone that's confused by it has either had very good marketing people who are more aligned with a public relations mindset that can provide great marketing, or they don't understand the differentiation of role because they don't understand the psychology of the buying funnel.
- [15:11]
B
I think that's completely it too. And I think that to the general public they don't care who does what, they don't care about the delineation of anything, nor should they. The end result for the general public and consumer should just be they see the brand as the brand. They get a feeling, they get a vibe, they think they know who you are by seeing your logo or hearing your name and that's what you want. All of this making the sausage stuff is for us to deal with while we get there.
- [15:47]
A
No, totally. Well, I mean you worked at one of the most notable banks for a very long time and I don't know why like for whatever reason the like creative aspect, like the frontwards facing marketing, branding, PR gets like so muddled where there is like the roles aren't clear. But like if you look at the banking example, like the person who's selling GICs or who is like front facing for the customer, like regardless if they understand it loosely, is not the same person who's developing the GICs or developing the comms for the GICs like in any other industry, it's not confusing that there's a clear role and responsibility for the role in which they play and what they develop. But when it comes to marketing, because every business uses it and there's no barrier to entry, it's like why is it, like why is it so confusing that you need different skill sets for different things?
- [16:43]
B
It really, it boggles my mind and I do think that in some cases internal teams work, marketing, comms, PR work well in a complementary way together. But I've also seen instances where this confusion amongst leadership and quite frankly as we're talking about the teams themselves, this confusion actually leads to animosity between the teams and then that's where I think, you know, I think that's why. Yes, exactly, exactly. And, and you said something that I really, really clicked and I think you mentioned quality of the person.
- [17:28]
A
Yeah.
- [17:29]
B
And I Think that matters because to some leaders and to some people they're like, oh, PR comms, marketing. Will you just pretty up my email? It's like that is such a two dimensional, old school, outdated way to look at what we do. We're strategic business advisors, we're, we're business counsel and we should be at the table for some of these conversations, you.
- [17:55]
A
Know, and there just needs to be a better understanding of its value and its worth. Yeah, and that's like, it goes to another piece when you were chatting earlier about, you know, like PR speaks to a brand. It's like, well, to execute, to take a step back. Like in the way that I explain, brand is like there's three levels to a brand. Because the word brand means everything and nothing, like all at the same time. So it's, and it's like, it, like what even is a brand? So the way that I break it down, like, well, there's three levels to a brand. There's an A brand, there's a good brand and there's a great brand. And like the differentiation between the three is one really understanding what makes a brand, which is the four pillars. A good product, a good story, a good experience and consistency. But then to make a great brand takes the element of time as well as like an exceptional execution of those four pillars, which often comes with time. But why it's so confusing of like the role of how each of them play is because there's a narrow understanding or a limited understanding that all the different pieces that makes up a brand. So in order to have a brand that's like intriguing or exciting or interesting, you need that really great news hit piece. You need people telling that storyline and having the right sound bites to communicate back, to kind of create that buzz. But that buzz is only supported if the brand is fantastic, if the socials look great and if the experience is bang on. Like you can have the best looking socials, the best press release, the best website, and then if you show up and the service sucks.
- [19:29]
B
Oh, forget it. Exactly. And then, then you need your PR people to manage a reputational issue.
- [19:35]
A
Yes, yes, but it's like, it's how. It's like an ecosystem.
- [19:38]
B
It's all interrelated. Yes, but.
- [19:41]
A
And so they are all interrelated, but like where the role in which, where the. And where it is levels of importance. I think that's like a separate convo for us to get into is like PR has changed not for every industry, but for a lot of brands that I work in, like beauty and like, let's say less luxury fashion, let's say like basic or like mid tier entry points. You can get PR now through influencers, which is not the same as like media relations.
- [20:09]
B
And no, but it doesn't mean equally important, I think.
- [20:13]
A
Yeah, but it doesn't also mean that PR is no longer as important. It's like going back to your point, it's having the right business advisors that understand what your business needs.
- [20:22]
B
Yeah. What is the goal? Really? What's the goal? Because you can do flowery things, you can write flowery, flowery language. But if it doesn't match your brand, if it doesn't mean anything, then it's, it's just not going to resonate.
- [20:37]
A
No, it's fluff. No. 100%. What has been some of the most shocking comments that you agreed with or disagreed with, like, high level.
- [20:45]
B
The funniest thing to me is that from PR and comms practitioners globally, it's been the same thing. It's been like, glad someone said it. Stay having the same issue. And it's really made me feel like, wow, we're united. It doesn't matter what country, what time zone, what your first language is. There are some, there are some schisms here that, you know, certainly are not just things that I've seen or that you've seen. And it was very clear alignment and a lot of, a lot of people supporting each other and like really being like, oh, I'm so glad we're having this conversation. And then marketing, comms or a more traditional marketing, they were like, yeah, agree. But then marketing proper. There were a few that were like, no, PR is marketing. And like, well, here we go again. Like if we all can't agree, well, here, here, herein lies the dilemma.
- [21:45]
A
Well, I guess the point of confusion. And it's like, it's almost like because we haven't developed like professional vernacular, it's like if you're trying to categorize the different talents for hire into one box, what box do they go into? And like, that's the issue is like there isn't that. Like, it's not like the finance department, you know, like it's clear to people that a bookkeeper isn't the accountant.
- [22:12]
B
Isn't that like, okay, you have a commerce degree and you've done xyz. Okay, perfect, we're gonna take you, we're gonna put you in here. Different, different company, but here's your box. And it's almost like speaking of boxes, there are so many boxes in our area where, where Is it a Venn diagram? Where is it a separate box? Where, where let each other just run and shine. And, and I think like for me the biggest thing is let the people who know what they're doing, regardless of whether their title is marketing, comms, pr, public affairs, let them, let them do what they're good at. They've lived through things, they've seen it. I think we all understand the general public, public sentiment, how things can turn quickly. For better or for worse, let us do our jobs.
- [23:06]
A
Well, it's really interesting, like even from my perspective, like I went to school for writing, like I know how to write. Writing a press release is like definitely not beyond my capability, but when clients, when I'm doing like a launch for clients and PR is mission critical. It's, it's one of the first things that I outsource to localized specialized experts. Because another big thing with more traditional PR is it, it's also who you know, right?
- [23:37]
B
And it's really, it really is putting something out on the wire. I don't know if most people realize, but it's, it can be thousands of dollars to put a news release out on the wire. So that is a big a financial commitment, It's a time commitment to write, plan. And it very likely could be if there isn't the elements that we talked about earlier, which is that, that newsworthiness, the innovation, something enticing, exciting, and you tell that story correctly. But if you also have all those things, it doesn't guarantee you coverage. You can have a great story and still not, you know, permeate through to earned media because very much, as you said, it's a relationship based business. And I think what a lot of people don't understand with, with media relations is that it's really the art of relationships. It's the art of managing relationships, building them, maintaining them. And I say this with great passion and having seen a lot of different issues over the years, that when you engage in media relations, it's not just like, hey, we're launching this new thing and we're excited, we want our name in lights. Okay, you might, you might have that happen. But don't forget, there's a flip side, there's another side to this coin and it's that you can have a reputational issue or a crisis or a mini issue that if you don't handle correctly turns into a crisis. And that means that that reporter that, that journalist that you've now engaged with, they know you, they know your number, they know your email, and they're going to call you, you might not even know there's an issue brewing yet. They know, they've heard, they have their finger on the pulse and you get this call. So you also have to be ready to take the bad with the good. And I think the, really the, the value in a seasoned PR professional is being able to turn those hairy, difficult, potentially bad moments into moments that disappear, dissipate, never make it into the news or get turned into. There's a positive story or some element of that. I think that's really where the bread and butter is for traditional PR professionals, 100%.
- [26:11]
A
And for those who are confused on kind of the name of the game from the pr, from the PR world, it, from a traditional standpoint, it very much is still kind of an old boys club, which isn't, isn't. I'm using that more colloquially.
- [26:31]
B
Yeah. And like the Rolodex and like the.
- [26:33]
A
Role who you know, what you know because. And that's really where a lot of times what clients miss when hiring professionals, why PR experts can't just give you what you want because they've spent 5, 10, 15, 20 plus years developing these relationships. And you have to understand how many levels of relationships you're tapping into. Right. So on the first hand, if you hire Astrid, well, Astrid's been in PR for 20 years, so Astrid knows all of the who's who in the zoo, in the city, in the luxury space that she can pick up the phone and make a call. Now once she picks up and makes the call, the person on the other line, she's got a relationship there that she's basically asking for them to take their time to review the piece and hope that they're going to print it. Now once the, the editor, the writer, the journalist is reviewing that piece now they're straining their relationship with the media source because if they put, if they put their name out there, they do this print run and it gets no clicks, it gets no views, it hurts their print run ability or their media ability. Now you're dealing with the strain with the meat. And you have to understand the role in which this plays. Like no matter how important your business is to you, if it's not, it's like, like simple Donald Miller, how to Build a Story Brand. It has to provide value to the reader or to the listener. Like no one cares how much time you put into this restaurant. So when you understand, when you're paying for an expert, you're paying for their credibility, their expertise, but also the relationships and the relationships that come from the relationships. Because you're asking for a platform to print your business.
- [28:18]
B
Exactly. For free and like that. Free, you know, coverage here, very much earned. Very much, you know, and if there are potential things that you are putting forward and it might be misaligned with previous things the company has done or the organization has done, you need to be prepared to be questioned on it.
- [28:42]
A
Cool.
- [28:44]
B
You just totally can't expect that. It's like, oh, that's cool. That's a great idea. We're just gonna cover it. If they're. If it piqued their interest, they will talk to you, but they're also going to get, you know, the nitty gritty around the story. Are there any inaccuracies, inconsistencies, any, you know, possible contradictions from past things that you've done? Like, it's not just. You're walking into a potential lion's den. And I say that carefully. And that are journalists, I truly believe. They're not out to necessarily get a gotcha moment, but they're inquisitive, they're smart, that if they see, if they sense an inaccuracy or inconsistency or that bit of cold, tepid aloofness, they're gonna ask you more questions or you're gonna get.
- [29:37]
A
What you don't want.
- [29:38]
B
Opposite. That's it.
- [29:40]
A
Yeah.
- [29:40]
B
Like, you're. You're actually getting the story that you should dread.
- [29:45]
A
Good. Thank you. No, and that's the other thing that's really, like. It's just. It's. Media is in the business of making money. They need to be able to get and receive stories that are earned, to your point. So that's the difference between native and earned. You know, like, it's. Is it purchased or is it like a gen. A genuine story. Obviously, the genuine stories perform better because, like, clickbait is all over the Internet and, like, for the most part, people don't click on it unless I agree.
- [30:11]
B
I think we're immune. Starting to become more immune to it now.
- [30:15]
A
Totally, totally. And this is, I think, like a conversation of many to come. So anyone who enjoyed this dialogue, disagrees, agrees. We'd love to have your comments, feedbacks, and perspectives. And if there's anything else that you would like Astrid to cover to the two of us to cover together. We are looking for that shared motivation to get Astrid to do more videos.
- [30:39]
B
Thank you, Camille. And also thank you to everyone across the world who have weighed in on this topic so far. Thank you. You've gotten us two different minds together. Here and hope for many more to come. Awesome.