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- [00:00]
A
And it's so interesting with this movie is that at the same time of no one really hearing about it, not knowing much about this movie, there's this massive lawsuit where a marketing agency is being sued. $10 million for buying followers for buying metrics to placate to the client. To be like, no, like, things are working. We're doing things, but effectively, like embezzling. It's like a fraud lawsuit. Like embezzling this massive budget to do nothing.
- [00:29]
B
What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a.
- [00:31]
A
Might say it again now. What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand. Let's talk about the Strange Case of Strange Darlings. This is a movie that I don't think anyone has really heard anything about. And it's a perfect conversation as to why marketing strategy matters.
- [00:52]
B
Well, I came about it. There's a YouTube movie critic that I love called the Critical Drinker that I recommend to everybody for his Scottish accent as he takes. Takes apart crappy movies and suggests good ones. And Strange Darling by some people is being compared to almost being as good as Silence of the Lambs, but it just completely failed at the box office. So I was looking into it, chatting with you about it, trying to figure out why it didn't do that well. And it turns out there's a giant marketing lawsuit going on. And it's an example of poor marketing in branding and affecting sales that I thought we would just chat about because I know that there's a loyal group of people who love the movie and they're asking why it didn't do well.
- [01:37]
A
Well, I mean, that's just. That's a massive comparison, like to say this movie is being compared to one of the most iconic movies of all time. It just shows you how important marketing and messaging is. Because I heard nothing about this movie. I thought it was the movie that what's her name was in, Emma Stone, because it was a name similar to Strange Darlings.
- [01:57]
B
And so when we were talking about it, Silence of the Lambs, we decided to kind of compare Silence of the Lambs, how it was promoted to Strange Darlings in terms of title and the old classic movie poster that attracts you when you go to select a movie. And I know we looked at both of them. I thought it'd be awesome to talk about it because most people have seen Silence of the Lambs.
- [02:18]
A
I haven't, actually.
- [02:19]
B
You haven't?
- [02:20]
A
No.
- [02:20]
B
Oh, my God. We got you Watch that. I know, but it may be premature. We haven't seen either in the Movies. But if you look at. And we'll put up there movie poster boards, when you look at them, I think people should describe what do you get from each poster board. And the beauty of Silence of the Lambs is one. It's like making good content online. There's a hook there, Silence of the Lambs. You're like, what does that mean? Silence of the Lambs. And it's interesting because you understand the meaning later, but it's not what you think. But it creates ominousness, right? The silence of the Lambs. You're like, what the hell is the Silence of the Lambs? And then the poster board is a moth, right? And so it creates a sense of eeriness that you can kind of expect something is gonna come from this movie. Whereas when you look at Strange Darling and it's a picture of a pretty lady, you don't get the sense that it's potentially as impactful as a psychological thriller or Silence of the Lamb.
- [03:17]
A
No, it gives you nothing to desire, right? Like there's no space for curiosity, interpretation. Like it. It. It's not even artistic. It's purely just lazy. And the reason why the Strange Darling case study is so fascinating is it kind of poses two questions. The first is how do movies market in an age where they can no longer buy attention? Right? Like for the longest time, movies were only available to see in cinema. So seeing the poster was a billboard because the only way to really enjoy movies is when you went to the movie theater. The second is they effectively had your attention during the previews because you couldn't pre purchase your seat. So you needed to get there early to get a good seat. And before. The only way to really unwind or to chill out was to watch tv. And TV commercials or movie commercials were no joke. That's how you created buzz and hu hype. Like to get people to the movies today when you don't have any of those, like forced places of attention, how do you drive hype? And it's so interesting with this movie is that at the same time of no one really hearing about it, not knowing much about this movie, there's this massive lawsuit where a marketing agency is being sued $10 million for buying followers for buying metrics to placate to the client. To be like, no, like, things are working. We're doing things. But effectively, like embezzling. It's like a fraud lawsuit. Like embezzling this massive budget to do nothing.
- [04:56]
B
So I think there's like almost marketing malpractice at the front end.
- [05:00]
A
Yeah.
- [05:00]
B
In terms of, and this is what a problem is, is marketing is people are making like pretty or visually aesthetic things, but they don't have a hook and it's related to content. You can make the best piece of content for YouTube or a video for TikTok, but if you don't capture attention in the first five seconds, nobody's gonna see it.
- [05:19]
A
Well, but it actually, it brings to a realization I've made as of recently that I wanna double down into is that we fixate so much on aesthetics, like maintaining a brand standard and like that really matters, but it actually matters at a different stage in the journey for many startups, which effectively, like a movie is doing when it doesn't have like super famous actors in it that are like gonna carry the primary. You have to care more about effectiveness than aesthetics alone. And I see it for a lot of small businesses, they're just, they're so focused on like the look and the feel for the brand that they're prepared or they're not really prepared to sacrifice how long it takes to grow by only focusing on aesthetics and not effectiveness. And you need to be launching tons of ships. Like you need on average 20 to 60 creatives per month to see a generation of sales. Now, all of that should have strategy. All of that should have like a plan and an angle to it, but it's often shocking the one that performs the best and it's usually like a mix of things, like it's got the right cuts. It's not like as obvious as the one that looks the best.
- [06:32]
B
Came across a great podcast that was talking about Apple and we were talking about how Steve Jobs was kind of an arbiter of taste. Like he really obsessed with design and he would be brutal on people to make sure the design was perfect. And taste is actually something that you don't get from biz school. Like there's just few people have. Everybody thinks they have it, but the people who make iconic things that really connect, they generally have this sense of taste. And if we do a case study on this, like if you pull up the, the movie poster of Silence of the Lambs and you look at it, there's something about it that's interesting, right? You read it, you look at it. And to get to that level of interesting, it's not just putting a moth on a certain background and doing it in 15 minutes, right? To make art that makes people pay attention and listen or leaves an action, you really need people who are skilled and who fixate on the details. Whereas if you Compare that to the Strange Darlings poster. You. It's a pretty profile picture.
- [07:34]
A
Okay, but this is, you are correct. Here is the. Where I would, I would challenge the visual image that's at the top of like wherever it streamed, like Netflix or whatever. One of the things that Netflix does that's odd, that isn't as intentional as you would think is it takes like random clips from movies and like the way that it makes almost like the landing page isn't at the rate of almost where it should be like it. It actually, it's an interesting like side conversation that I'm often finding. Especially like classic movies, the still that Netflix pulls or like the background image that next flick pulls isn't the best representation for the movie. And I don't think the movie has control over that. I do think that there's space for that whole page to be like actually a full like, like, actually piece of real estate that like Netflix could sell to coming movies. And where I'm going with this is the problem with St. Strange Darlings. Yes, you're right. It extends to the COVID image. But I think it's more than the COVID image because there's lots of movies or shows that we'll watch that get this like kind of tipping point hype where the still of the show isn't that intriguing or interesting. And there is something more to that like critical mass of what's happening because I think Netflix doesn't provide the control necessary for that still cover art.
- [08:59]
B
Remember, Netflix makes content internally to save from having to buy content. Right. So Netflix will bring on a new release of something that had cinematic success. And so the one way you make money is if you have cinematic success in the pre launch marketing, then Netflix pays for it.
- [09:15]
A
That's what I'm saying though is I'm saying the criticism for the Strange Darlings marketing is that they didn't get that hype. They didn't get that buzz in their prelaunch marketing.
- [09:27]
B
Yes. So it's alleged that the marketing company was providing fake numbers of likes that made the producers think they were getting the hype that they want, but they weren't getting the media placement and they weren't getting the message out there for an opening day. It's hard to do that now. It's hard to get hyped for a movie that's coming out on day one.
- [09:47]
A
It's not though. It's not. If you had a $10 million marketing budget. That's, that's the crux of this conversation we're having Is that it? Is, that is the. The takeaway from this conversation is that what you're seeing at the Strange Darlings level is shocking, but not shocking because it never happens, is that it usually doesn't happen to businesses at that scale. Marketing companies are stealing businesses money every single day. And unfortunately, the person that's usually the most susceptible to that is the small and medium sized business owner because they don't know what questions to ask. They're so busy running a business, they don't have the benefit of being able to hire all these different salaries that can just overlook an agency. And it's not shocking that it happened to Strange Darling. It's just at the scale in which it happened at that. Like they didn't ask questions sooner about the followers that they were purchasing and the vanity metrics that they were buying. Like we probably see at least two to three times a month brands that come in that have had followers purchased by an agency unbeknownst to them, and they think that they've got a lot of followers and they have like almost no engagement on their page. And it's very difficult for somebody else to come in and pick that up because we're working against an algorithm that's now working against you because, like, you've bought metrics.
- [11:03]
B
Hmm. Yeah. Strange Darling is just. It's a movie that has some crazy twists and it's a thriller and it didn't come across. When I look at some of their online visuals, some of them are okay. But it's. But it's.
- [11:22]
A
But that's what I'm saying. Like it's not the visuals, like it's their entire marketing strategy. It's how they hired a team. And the team didn't have the proper oversight to be ensure that they were doing what they were doing. And this happens every single day. But usually not to like big production movies.
- [11:42]
B
I just think. But the point I think I'm making is if the title is not good or the hook is not good of whatever content you're making, you can fail 100%. And we watched Hudsucker Proxy. Right. Which is a phenomenal movie by the Coen brothers. Yeah, that didn't do that well. But Spectacular Movie. And maybe we could chat about what we were talking about.
- [12:04]
A
Yeah, so we watched the Hudsucker proxy. So I think a great connector to what we're saying about Strange Darlings is the Coen Brothers Hudsucker Proxy. Because both of these things happen to us kind of at the same time. Hudsucker Proxy is not a new movie. It's kind of like an alternative Christmas movie. Like, there's nothing actually that Christmassy about it, but, like, because I think it happens at Christmas, you get, like. And it's like, in New York during winter time that it feels enough like it was the right time of year to watch that movie. And what was really interesting is the movie was actually fantastic. We, you and I both deduced that that's actually what made the Coen brothers. Like, the Coen brothers is, like, the way that they approach. Like, how cerebrally. Like, the shots, like, the narrative, the storyline. Like, the instruction on acting. Like, it was so odd but so well executed, and we've both never heard about it. And it's. Because when you hear of the name Hudsucker Proxy, what does that even mean? Like, it's so hard to remember. It's not memorable. It's quite possibly the worst name. And why I think that's relevant is we talk about four pillars to a brand, right? A good brand needs a good product, a good story, a good experience and consistency. And so many people think that if your product is good enough, the business will come. And it's. That's, like a quarter of the battle. Like, if your messaging sucks and you don't have a good strategy to go to market, you're not going to win.
- [13:32]
B
There's also kind of a little arrogance that might come from the old way of doing things. Like, the one phrase that always I hated when you try to get people to change is they're like, well, we've always done it that way.
- [13:44]
A
Oh, my God.
- [13:45]
B
And I think in the old days, this may have been a story where there was less options for books. And so it was a. If you had a beautifully written book with critics, it would spread through critics and reviews, and the title didn't matter as much, right? Because you have. Well, you just have some things that are amazing books that didn't have good titles, and they do well because there was. Let me finish. Book critics were the key. So if you put. If you put a great book in front of an influential book critic, it could do really well with a crappy title. In today's world, where nobody is going to one book criticism, where there's, like, 1,000 reviewers and there's 1,000 options, having the wrong title can make your product get left behind.
- [14:34]
A
This is where I was just gonna challenge you on it, though. I think that a good critic can give a product with not a great title a strong life. But I think where the Difference is, is if it's a genuinely bad title. And, like, that's an important difference, is that oftentimes it's not that it's great. It's not that it's the best. It's that it's good enough. And Hudsucker Proxy is a bad title.
- [15:00]
B
No. Just think about how we talk about content.
- [15:03]
A
But even Strange Darlings, we've been talking about this for two weeks. We both haven't even watched the movie.
- [15:08]
B
Yeah.
- [15:08]
A
Like, and we now are convinced it's. It's, you know, a hidden great gem that needs to be watched, and our attention spans are in so short and in such demand that if we're not being sold that it's great.
- [15:22]
B
But this is when I talk about taste, like, the difference between success. Because if you compare the Coen Brothers movie, the Big Lebowski to Hudsucker Proxy, at first Blanche, they could look like similar titles. Right. But the Big Lebowski actually is really a hilarious way of naming something. Everybody wants to know, what the hell is a Big. I'm not thinking, what is a Hudsucker Proxy? It just. It seems too complex.
- [15:49]
A
There's no meaning derived from it. Right. Like, proxy isn't a. A word we use colloquially every day. The Big Lebowski. Lebowski is like, clearly someone's last name. And the COVID was always. It was always him and it, like, and like, with kind of like the bold.
- [16:05]
B
Why is he called Big?
- [16:06]
A
No, it makes enough sense that you're intrigued.
- [16:11]
B
Or, oh, Brother, where art thou? Like, interesting kind of.
- [16:14]
A
And also, oh, brother, we're out. Though it always had such an engaging visual cover. Like, the two of them clearly breaking out of something, like, on the run. Like, it's, oh, brother, we're out. That was a great name. Like, you can tell that it's a classic movie. Hudsucker Proxy, I think it's like, something.
- [16:32]
B
About an airline industry. You don't like when you just hear.
- [16:36]
A
It, but then it means absolutely nothing. And then it's like an industrial complex.
- [16:39]
B
Yeah. And it had a. It had an image of a building. Right. It didn't talk about the coolness of that Christmas thing. And so the first thing we said when it was over, this is before we came across Strange Darlings, is that movie should have had a better name and more people would watch it.
- [16:51]
A
Well, I was. I kept racking my brain throughout the movie because I was like, I actually wanted to write it off before we watched it of, like, this is stupid. And it was so good. That it was. And the question just becomes opportunity cost, right? Like, obviously it's by the Coen brothers. Obviously the Coen brothers are super successful. You know, they're among the best or the best. And. But imagine the opportunity cost if it had been better named, like, you know, regardless of whatever they've achieved. Like, imagine, like, I just imagine, like what, what. What could that have meant if it had actually gotten the, like the recognition that it could have deserved? And that's. It's often worth it. You know, it's just worth it for the sake of like, you know, if it could have had more, give it more. And that's the kind of. The question with Strange Darlings also is like, you know, well, one of the Strange Darling things, like, super disappointing, but like, what's the opportunity cost? Literally, in that case, everything but. And that's just like the picture that we're painting is like, business owners beware. Like, the sad reality is that if you're not inspecting, you can't expect greatness, especially when, like, especially when they don't have any skin in the game.
- [18:08]
B
That's the old military maxim we've chatted about. You can only expect what you inspect. And if you just delegate fire and forget. You know what I mean, you. You can be. You can be ripped off. So if you've got a long standing relationship with somebody you trust and they've got a track record, then that's fine. But when it comes to busy founders, you know, you can only expect what you inspect. Yeah, right. And you got to go two to three questions deep because you can kind of be calm. But my angle is different than yours. I think your message is awesome, but it's just taste and the artistic ability to actually do things well that seem simple. I think people who are very good at complex tasks undervalue how important it is to have somebody who knows how to artfully or tastefully create something that can contribute to the legacy of what you're building technically. Because Strange Darlings sounds fine, the images sounds fine, but it doesn't. It's that last 5% that is the tipping point often. But when you think of the Silence of the Lambs, and I hope people watch it like Poor Things.
- [19:11]
A
That was the Emma Stone movie. Poor Things, Strange Darlings, like, they're super close, but I think you're over complicating it. Your point on taste is dead on. I think that's a really interesting separate conversation. But in a world where the average thing that's coming out is like, pretty subpar and it's getting like hype and it's generating view count. That's. That's not at the level of like taste. It's just like basic execution to just get eyeballs. Like people are so hungry for good movies and good TVs. Like for it to be compared to Silence of the Lambs. Like we're literally dying to just consume something better than a Hallmark movie. Like it's just like Spider Man's 14th version. Like it's, we're just, we're so hungry for it. So your level on taste is at a point for demand where like the bar is so low right now in production that they really shit the bed. To not make this like a movie that's like a must see movie. There's a bit of a.
- [20:13]
B
It's a crime that it's not as successful as it should be.
- [20:15]
A
No, there's no, there's no, there's like right now everyone is just dying to watch something decent.
- [20:21]
B
No, something like Silence of the Lambs. You know, they don't come across.
- [20:25]
A
The fact that they mess that up is such a huge failure that it's not even at the level of like how iPhone is now, like, you know, losing the plot on UI UX. It gets.
- [20:36]
B
That was an interesting discussion we had in Brooklyn in New York City. I don't know if.