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- [00:00]
Philip
The people around you secretly don't really want you to succeed. It's probably stopped so many people from achieving their dream because they listen to those people.
- [00:08]
Erica
Your issue is not that you've lost sight of the consumer. The issue is that you lost sight of your brand.
- [00:13]
Philip
Never listen to people who tell you to be realistic. You have to be proximate to where the best people in your trade are.
- [00:18]
Erica
She's being tied to one of the reasons why Nike stock is in the toilet.
- [00:23]
Philip
I think Lululemon is committing brand Hari Curry. I think it'll go down as one of the stupidest appointments of a CEO in the history of any company.
- [00:31]
Erica
If you want to get into fin finance, you have to go to Wall Street. If you want to get into politics, you have to go to Washington. If you want to become an actress, you have to go to Hollywood.
- [00:40]
Philip
Even if you become successful, they're always going to see you as that person in high school who is awkward or that person who wasn't this. They're never really going to give you the success that you've earned. And secretly they probably don't want you to be that successful.
- [00:51]
Erica
These big megaliths, critical thinking has left the building. We fear like we can't compete with these big players, but the big players are failing.
- [00:58]
Philip
Good leadership means pissing people off.
- [01:00]
Erica
What a brand, what a brand, what a brand what a mighty good
- [01:06]
Philip
what
- [01:06]
Erica
a brand, what a brand, what a brand what a mighty good brand. We're live. All right. What a brand, what a brand, what a brand. This is our last week recording at Glendale Podcast Studio. They've been so amazing to us. If you guys ever happen to be in LA and want to record a podcast, I would highly recommend that you check them out.
- [01:24]
Philip
Top notch quality of the podcast studio
- [01:26]
Erica
matters totally and they're great people. Husband and wife duo Erica and Jason Philip, two months in la. Can you wanna summarize it in a line or two?
- [01:35]
Philip
Just wanna be careful about saying how much we've worked here from an immigration perspective.
- [01:41]
Erica
Hopefully this will go live after we're back in Canada.
- [01:43]
Philip
We were here for medical reasons, doing some interesting stuff. But living in Hollywood for two months was actually an amazing experience. To get greater insight into where this place is, where it's going and how we might play a good role in helping to revitalize what is amazing about Hollywood.
- [02:00]
Erica
You know what I mean? What I really enjoyed about being here is seeing, connecting and realizing how small the world is like once you create content and how much you can connect and impact people that you would have never known otherwise. Like, it's cool how it's like one thing to say when you know, you do a live and people from all over the world are saying that they're dropping in. But it's another to be like shaking someone's hand and like talking. Like today we went to the gym and the guy who owned the telemedicine that was, they were giving out b12 shots. Like he was a fan of the show. Like it's, it's just, I think that that's cool, but not cool in like a self aggrandizing way, but in a way to remind you, create content. The world is really so small and it's so worth it for you to be able to connect. And I recommend creating it first and then going into the major cities. Like I was talking, I was talking to a few people about that of like once you've kind of made it, the next best thing to, is to go into a New York, into an LA or whatever for your industry, if that's in Austin, Texas or whatever. Because the loose tie phenomenon is real. We were talking yesterday to Basma Beauty, a really incredible story of a woman who was a burn victim and ended up becoming a tattoo artist that is like not. She hates the word tattoo, but she utilizes basically a tattoo gun to like hide your scars and like change your skin texture. And how she didn't, she didn't really make it until she proved her craft and then kind of went to Beverly Hills.
- [03:33]
Philip
What she described to us, it was very emotional one because she was a burn victim at a very young age and spent years and years in hospitals and then so became motivated to try and help people look as close to normal as possible. Yeah, built this incredible talent. She's the best in the world at tattooing skin to hide scars. The best in the world. She has the best celebrity. She gets flown to the prime ministers of different countries all around the world. But she started off in Toronto and she opened a little small studio there. And it gives me shivers because I know how many of our listeners experience this, you've learned this craft, but the people around you secretly don't really want you to succeed or they're not going to support you and you're busting your butt and they're just sitting there waiting for you to fail. And it actually, it's probably stopped so many people from achieving their dream because they listen to those people. But she did a trip down to LA and Beverly Hills because she was featured on and she said, I want to Work there. And getting away from that group of people that were holding you back was fundamental to her success. And I think a lot of people need to take that additional risk. Now. When she goes back, she's a celebrity because she's been validated somewhere else.
- [04:39]
Erica
She's been validated everywhere else. I'm so glad you explained it that way. And it's been such a testament, even to our own story of it's not. Where I'm from is the example. The example is when I speak to most people, when you're only trying to make it in your echo chamber of where you grew up and where you kind of started, they don't see you as great because they know your journey, they know when you started, versus once you kind of master that craft and you go elsewhere, people are only meeting you for where you are at present. So once you kind of get into that state of mastery, because all that they care about, like, when she moved into Beverly Hills, that's like the surgical capital in the America. In America of, like, being, like, prestigious plastic surgery. So she just got all of the business and was instantly validated because she wasn't competing with anyone when she's great. And the loose tie phenomenon is exactly that. So it's a great place to start the episode.
- [05:33]
Philip
But what I would say.
- [05:34]
Erica
Just explain loose tie phenomenon, though, before you move on. You explain it.
- [05:37]
Philip
Well, I thought we did a little bit. But loose ties is in your own community, where people know you. Even if you become successful, they're always gonna see you as that person in high school who is awkward or that person who wasn't this right. They're never really gonna give you the success that you've earned. And secretly, they probably don't want you to be that successful. But I also think.
- [05:55]
Erica
But the loose tie phenomenon is people who don't know you when it's a loose tie hold you at the standard of where you're at, not where you've come from.
- [06:05]
Philip
Well said. And what I want explaining on the point you had earlier is it's not always evil why it's that way. I just think, like, in some communities, they're like, you can't really be that good if you're from our community, because they think, like, we're a small community.
- [06:17]
Erica
But if you go, you're just Joe, you're just Lisa.
- [06:19]
Philip
But it's not always just against them. It's also about the community. But if you've gone overseas and done something and come back, then they're proud of you. Right? So you can't kind of the human. It's that notion things we've talked about.
- [06:31]
Erica
I don't know if we really did. When we were in Ireland, we were explaining this kind of problem to an incredible caddy that we had met that wanted to kind of do some things on his own. He goes, in Ireland. That's what makes this hilarious is everyone, no matter where they're from, struggles with the exact same problem. He's like, in Ireland, they say that you've got notions. You have these ideas about yourself or you're too big for your britches.
- [06:55]
Philip
You can be more than a caddy at Lahinch, which is amazing. But because he wanted to do more, people were like, oh, you've got notions. Just accept where you are. And that we talked about last week. Don't never listen to people who tell you to be realistic, fill your dreams. But it's not because they're often bad. It's just because that's what they've been culturally trained to do. So going on a walkabout, leaving your city, going on a journey, you know, it's called a journeyman taking your trade somewhere else. If you love coffee, go to the best coffee places in the world. Get some experience, come back.
- [07:21]
Erica
I actually want to say that's why we came to la. There was some health stuff. I actually did some embryo egg freezing, which was incredible. We went to Beverly Hills fertility center and Dr. Goldstein was literally incredible. I can't even complain at all for what I see people go through for, like, how top tier that was. But the real reason why we decided to do it is we listened to Shamath, who's on the all in podcast. He's got a super long last name I'm not going to try to pronounce. And when he said in it, he goes. And this is actually really what convinced Philip as like Philip, because there was a battle in which sometimes you don't know what's worth to do, where you're sitting, where you're at. And we've had to travel so much this year that to leave again for two months just seemed exhausting and you couldn't see the immediate payoff. But what he said was, if you want to get into finance, you have to go to Wall Street. If you want to get into politics, you have to go to Washington. If you want to become an actress, you have to go to Hollywood. And because we want to make it in brand and we want to, like, be the best at what we do, you got to go where media and branding is and I want to tell you that for wherever you're at, maybe it's you deciding to go to a conference in France because that's where the best injectors are. Whatever is your version of that statement. Make a commitment this year. Because what I can tell you is all of this shit compounds. It's not like in the six weeks going to Emma Greed's event was a career changing opportunity is that all of these micro wins of doing the reps in a different market at a different level, consuming a different level of information overall compounds to take you your life. You know that movie with Scarlett Johansson, you know where like the train goes could go one way and you could go the other way and just by making more intentional decisions. The butterfly, butterfly effect of where your life can go.
- [09:11]
Philip
So it's proximity. You have to be proximate to where the best people in your trade are in order to get the best opportunity. It's not saying you can't be a great doctor and stay in your hometown. But if you want to be the best cancer or you know, or heart surgeon in the world, you need to go around the best heart surgeons in the world because you can't track it like other ROIs. But being around the people who are at the cutting edge of it having those discussions, there's no downside. But those discussions result in opportunities that you just can't have on a zoom
- [09:39]
Erica
and you can't measure back home. No, agreed.
- [09:41]
Philip
If you're looking at scaling this year, make sure you calendar something that puts you proximate to the people you most admire in your industry so you can bring some of that back.
- [09:50]
Erica
So let's kick off the show. We're going to first talk about Lululemon appointing a new CEO. So Lululemon just announced that former Nike executive Heidi O' Neill that did over 25 years at Nike was one of the leaders that piloted Nike's direct to consumer move by having its own brand stores is coming into Lululemon, which is crazy considering she's being tied to one of the reasons why Nike stock is in the toilet. And she's being named in a securities lawsuit for misleading the shareholders for saying that the direct to consumer strategy was an effective strategy when it ultimately was not. And there was clear signs in the beginning. So let's break this down cuz this is absolutely insane to me.
- [10:38]
Philip
I think Lululemon is committing brand hari kari by inviting the virus into their organization and calling it the cure. I think it'll go down as one of the stupidest appointments of a CEO in the history of any company that needs to reinvent itself. I can't understand. Well, I can understand. And that's actually the problem, because board members are people who are tied stronger to politics than success, are more focused on being right than being successful. And so they want to show that they can hire this female who essentially dropped the ball at Nike on many levels and bring it in. And then she does a press conference with equality on her T shirt and talks in sentences that I can't understand. Like, it wouldn't be any type of.
- [11:22]
Erica
Oh, my God. The whole focus on this video is like, we're going back to the consumer. We're connecting with the consumer. We used to do run clubs for the consumer. Lululemon, your issue is not that you've lost sight of the consumer. The issue is that you lost sight of your brand.
- [11:35]
Philip
But there's a brand signaling there. So when Lulu hires somebody from Nike who failed at their job and is now in a lawsuit, who actually kind of contributed to hurting the brand and brings them into Lululemon says, and they have a big equality thing on their shirt. Like, equality is good, but what the heck is the point of that? When your CEO is giving a presentation to get your company back on track, it's not about equality. It's about performance. It's about getting your brand. Like, business is warfare. It's not social signaling. But the people in charge of the Lululemon Lemon board just want to prove that they can be successful doubling down on that position rather than getting, like, I would have brought Chip back. People would hate him. But Chip knows how to get people passionate about a product. Again. This. This is going to. This can.
- [12:19]
Erica
This brand is too far from having Chip come back. But I do think that the larger issue is that of the CEOs that chip is suggesting. Like, they won't even book an interview with them. Like, they're not taking any direction. Like, anything that comes out of Chip's mouth. The board is trying to do as far opposite of what he's suggesting. And how problematic that is for what they don't realize is the reason why the brand is floundering is that they've lost sight of the ethos of what made the brand successful. So continuing to push further from the person that that was able to foresaw. Like, Chip created the legging, he created clothing, activewear, clothing for women. He created an entire segment where yoga clothing became everyday wear. Like, he created an entire new category for clothing, and he did it first. That is Someone that sees ahead. And I was having a conversation with a woman I deeply respect this past week coming into this. And I said to her, I was like, you know, a lot of these founders don't have to be personally likable. Because the conversation was like, Chip versus Christine. Because Christine's also a big reason why Lululemon continued to be successful. And when you look at like a Steve Jobs, when you look at like an Elon Musk, they're not necessarily designed like. The reason why they're so ahead of the curve is that they understand how to execute without and with. With also not needing to have to be liked by everybody. And that's relevant.
- [13:51]
Philip
First of all, if you're going to be a CEO, you can't be likable because you got to push people. You know, I work with briefly, General Colin Powell. You know, he said good leadership means pissing people off.
- [13:59]
Erica
Yeah, right.
- [14:00]
Philip
And he said because mediocre people don't want to be told they have to raise their standards. And when you tell them that, they're going to get angry at you and the weaker people are going to attack you, the better people are going to rise up to that standard and perform. But there's way too many people in corporations who are there and they're just mediocre. And they think they're amazing because of their version of themself. And when a CEO comes in and says, you're not doing your job, you know, they don't look inwards. They look at the CEO and say, you're wrong. I should just be able to do 9 to 3 on Zoom and take six coffee breaks. You know, so tying this back. We have an amazing episode because we're talking about Lulu, we're talking about Nike, we're talking about Apple, all in terms of leadership. This move by Lulu, I cannot understand for the life of me how they're not going to have a negligent lawsuit from their shareholders because the stock dropped huge on this announcement.
- [14:48]
Erica
And I think that we need to explain why.
- [14:50]
Philip
So I think that.
- [14:51]
Erica
I think we started. So the thing that's complicated about this segment is that there's layers. So the first issue is that the board has been trying to get a better CEO into Lululemon's leadership because Lululemon is in a problematic state as a brand. And that's why Chip Wilson took out that iconic full page ad in the Wall Street Journal that basically the entire board ignores him, nobody's speaking to him, and they have a massive rife internally within the company. Because Chip Wilson owns still a massive chunk of Lululemon. So there's, there's war with the person who founded the company and where the company is today. And they picked Heidi o' Neill and the stock plummeted the first day of this announcement. And we need to dig into why because there's that issue that's happening and then there's what Heidi o' Neill did at Nike that's relevant to why this is so stupid at Lululemon. So we're going to break that down. So Heidi O' Neill started at Nike in 1988. She first focused on owning the retail stores, e commerce and then apps and membership ecosystem. Then she became the president of consumer and marketplace. So she expanded beyond just direct to consumer into how Nike reaches and sells to consumers globally. And then she became the president of consumer product and brand. And this was her final and most powerful role at N with product creation, brand marketing, consumer insights and end to end storytelling. So she really rise through the ranks. And what's relevant about that is at the same time if she's taking this role in leadership. Nike is criticized for making some of the worst moves in its brand history. Break those down because we have the, we have the, the inside scoop on this. So the first thing that Nike has criticized is that it was pulled back too aggressively from wholesale. So Nike reduced emphasis on its partners like Footlocker and other major retailers that sold shoes.
- [16:48]
Philip
And why that was key hindsight's 20 20. The focus on DTC was good, you know, because I think Covid inspired. I think Covid kind of put a mind virus in people thinking everything could be done remotely. But that pullback from the retail space gave a giant opportunity for the Honas and the On Clouds, literally Hokas, Hokas and the On Clouds to move in because they stopped focusing on it. And so like a great kind of guerrilla operation from a smaller business. They see what the big company is doing. They're not focusing there and they want to exploited that opportunity. And once they grab that shelf space they're not going to, they're not going to let go of it because now they're incredibly popular.
- [17:26]
Erica
Well, this is where they really lost focus. And this is why brand strategy is relevant is that you can't use brand strategy of like what the zeitgeist is saying and apply it to every single brand. So Nike got, I'm going to call it greedy because they saw all of these brands going direct to consumer and they're closing the funnel. They don't have to give all of these percentages away to wholesalers. And then on top of wholesaler percentages, there's often a lot of marketing costs for being in store, like where your product is placed, doing activations, doing promotions. There's all these added costs that you don't see as a consumer that walks into the mall. The problem is when they created all of these Nike stores, a lot of the consumer that bought Nikes bought Nikes almost ambiently. Like they had their, their own habitual practices where they would go to a mall, like a sport check, like a Foot Locker.
- [18:13]
Philip
Well, they love the sneaker experience. Like, they weren't paying attention that this is the time that the sneaker experience. People were obsessed with sneakers. But they, they love to touch it. They love to touch it. And if you took that away from there, you took them off the shelves and thought you could just sell it online.
- [18:28]
Erica
You were in their own Nike stores.
- [18:30]
Philip
Yeah, a little overconfident. But to me, this is also a generalship issue. And just to, to, to give you business strategy, you might not agree with it, but if you hold the premium position in a marketplace, you have to be very aware of who's coming. And you don't give them opportunities and you quash them. And one thing that big companies have the power to do is to take up shelf space so competitors can't get in and get that foothold. And what Nike did under her direction is focus away from that. And it created like a giant lane
- [18:59]
Erica
for Hokas and on to come in and take it.
- [19:01]
Philip
To come in and take it.
- [19:02]
Erica
Right.
- [19:02]
Philip
And that's, that's bad generalship, because they should never have allowed it because of the cost. They should have owned both. Yes, because once you give it up, even you save money. They lost hundreds of millions.
- [19:12]
Erica
But you know what? Even as someone that's a more of a sophisticated shopper, if you were like, to me, hey, you know, I need to go get like some Nike Air Force ones to give to, you know, the guys at the office. I would literally tell you to go to the mall. Like, my brain doesn't. Because, like, so much of my life has been primed of, like, seeing Nike in those stores next to those other retailers. So for them to have pulled out when so much of the buying experience was based on discoverability, seeing their product, but seeing their product next to other brands, to not have, like, they should have doubled down on both, do world building in the stores and then have strong shelf, shelf space within these stores that sell their products. And so, okay, so that's the core issue, the second issue is that product innovation weakened. So because they had all this focus on direct to consumer, they weren't focused on innovating. When brands like Hoka and on came in, Nike became less cool for the mavens, right? For the people that are kind of ahead of the curve, the tipping point, people opposed to the people who kind of buy when they see everybody else.
- [20:17]
Philip
I just, I remember when I tried on my first on clouds, it was just viscerally more cushy or comfortable, right? And Nike really hit it when they came out with the air, you know, and then they kind of lost that angle in terms of innovating, in terms of having the most comfortable running shoe.
- [20:32]
Erica
But because it's also relevant to note that at the same time the brand also became more promotional. So they started increasing sales at their DTC stores to like increase people to buy more product, which lessened the brand because they weren't innovating and they weren't findable where people were shopping. So it became a promotional brand which helps sales short term, kills a brand long term. And then on top of that, Nike also lost some of its performance sport authority because the brand was leaning more into like these like equality messages. It lost sight of that brand being focused on performance.
- [21:08]
Philip
And we're going to talk about Nike brand later. But this is more about the errors she made and how the heck did she get chosen to lead the Lululemon brand.
- [21:15]
Erica
So on top of all of this, which in and of itself, when you're literally a part of one of the greatest brands of all time being in one of its worst positions of all time, on top of that, she's also named in a securities class action lawsuit. And the alleg is that Nike and certain executives misled investors about the success and sustainability of the direct to consumer strategy. The amended complaint claims that Nike falsely assured the investors that the consumer direct acceleration strategy was working while allegedly knowing internally that the strategy had serious problems. And the reason why Heidi o' Neill is named is because she held a major consumer and marketplace roles during the relevant period. And the complaint says that she served as president of Nike Consumer and marketplace. So you are literally faced with a stupid strategy at a huge brand that's in a failing position and then on top of that have a securities class action lawsuit for misdirecting the shareholders for pretending the strategy is working and you get selected to be the leader of a brand that that's publicly failing on top of itself. Like Chip Wilson took an ad out in the wall Street Journal. And this is what the board members are like, nope, you know what? Everyone's laughing at us. They're judging us or talking about us. This is the person that we're gonna pick to turn it around.
- [22:40]
Philip
That board is gonna get sued. Like, mark my words, because shareholder value is crashing. Like, there are. There are peacetime CEOs. There are wartime CEOs. Like, most founders are wartime CEOs. Like, they have to get their brand somewhere. But then once you get to that point, you can bring in a peacetime CEO. Pays attention to details, increases revenue. But then if you fall and you need to reinvent yourself, you gotta bring in a wartime CEO. This woman is not a wartime CEO. She failed at Nike. She's in a lawsuit. Now Lululemon is being sued by the Texas Attorney General for extreme greenwashing. Right. And is getting hammered everywhere for extreme greenwashing. She comes in with an equality T shirt, which is like, almost doubling down on. And I'm not saying equality is important before everybody starts hating on me. I'm saying your messaging. When you come out as a CEO, and if you come out in a T shirt that says equality, period, your message is something. And it's not controversial equality. But maybe you could come out and say performance matters. You know what I mean? Or something else if you're gonna say something. But that choice shows how bad it is. And now this woman is gonna deal with the Texas Attorney general coming after Lululemon for extreme greenwashing when she's named in another class action lawsuit where she misrepresented parts of the company. And now. And that's happening to Lulu. I can't understand it.
- [23:57]
Erica
Well, I think the issue is that she got passed over for the CEO ship for Nike and, like, Elliot Hill. No, but I'm just saying why she's coming out with, like, an equality T shirt. Is that say that she didn't get? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, it's just that when you're being named as. As another leader in, like, a CEO for another massive company. Yeah.
- [24:18]
Philip
I just wonder if the board asked her when they were hiring her to share with the board an example where you failed to perform at the standard you wanted or you didn't do a good job and explain what happened because. And if you guys are ever hiring people, ask your top candidates these questions. Don't just go off their highlight reels. Ask them to explain a time to you where they did something below the standard and why it happened and the psychology of the response that they give you Tells you a lot about them. If they blame external factors, I didn't get clear direction. Oh, the market shifted. Oh, my boss wasn't listening to me. You have a candidate that's probably not the best for your company. If they say, you know what, I took a shortcut here, I shouldn't have. I could have asked five to six other questions. I should have done more research here. I had somebody who was telling me this and I ignored it and I learned from that. So next time I will do that. That person is the candidate you need to bring into your organization. And I guarantee you the board didn't ask her this question about what happened at 90.
- [25:14]
Erica
But I think dig into that a bit further. So what is the two different worlds? Like one, when you're asking, when you're interviewing someone that's gonna of leadership in your company, the idea is to ask them a question to reflect on a position of weakness or where they could have performed better. And what you're looking for is can someone be self reflective in where they've seen growth in themselves versus were they blaming everybody else but themselves as the reason that that was a struggle Point moment. And what that shows to you is someone that's coming into leadership within your company is do they take accountability or are they blaming other people?
- [25:53]
Philip
Yeah, I know it's very important. And with CEOs, often they're sociopathic and very ambitious so they will throw people under the bus and blame others. But in your organizations, you know that one question can save you from 50% of your bad hires.
- [26:08]
Erica
I think that's a great insight for people to have kind of an ace to learn from this. But outside of that, this is a case study in when a brand loses sight of their brand and they're more focused on being right than realizing what they need to get back on track. Because even when in listening to her video T shirt aside, Lululemon's issue is not that they stop focusing on the consumer. At no point is it like in fact they've opened way more outlet malls, they've created more stores, they've be, they've included increased their sizes and the models of the you know who. Like they haven't lost sight of the consumer. They've lost sight of what made them great and why they were focused on explosion. So when you hear that answer from someone that has a track record of taking a brand in the wrong direction, that to us is a signal that sell your stock if you have it in Lululemon, because they're not, we're not financial analysts.
- [27:07]
Philip
But yes, it's. But yeah, and we often speak to that, the, when you're thinking strategy in your business, and it's one of the things I've seen in Hollywood that critical thinking gets dramatically reduced when you become obsessed with a personality you don't like. Like it happens with Trump, it happens with people who hate Kamala. You don't get good thinking when people are obsessed with a personality. And Lululemon board and the leadership there are obsessed with hating Chip. Yeah, and it's, it's, it's, it's ruining their thinking and it's ruining their brand.
- [27:38]
Erica
No, and you're, that's like the, the best point, I think, when you were so focused on hating someone, then seeing the bigger picture, the bigger vision, like, that's when you lose because you're so, to your point, so focused on being right, not focused on being successful. But on the topic of Nike, there was a huge controversy this week on their Boston Marathon sign. And it's such a clear showcase of how Nike has an authenticity crisis and they don't know where their identity is. So in case you missed it, days before the 130th Boston Marathon, Nike put up a massive window decal at its Newberry street flagship store that read in bold letters, runners welcome Walkers tolerated the Internet. Specifically run walk method users, charity runners and adaptive para athletes instantly revolted, accusing the brand of pace shaming, elitism and ableism. Within 24 hours, Nike panicked. They ripped the sign down. They issued a corporate apology stating the ad missed the mark and replace it with a watered down generic sign reading. Movement is what matters. And I mean, this was sent to me probably 50 times. So let us talk about the Nike authenticity crisis.
- [28:51]
Philip
Well, Nike's brand has a personality disorder.
- [28:54]
Erica
It does. Ain't that the truth?
- [28:56]
Philip
There's so many things going on here. Like, if we had been called in to advise on this, I think we would have said, look, Nike celebrates people who get up in the morning and put on their shoes. Like, that's the thing that gives me shivers. That person who gets up and puts on the shoes and others are sleeping, and if they walk, that's amazing. But to say they also appeal to high end athletes throughout the Boston Marathon. Like having done a marathon, I did the nine minute run, one minute walk. It was amazing. The time was good. So I don't know if somebody's gonna get fired for approving the runner's welcome. Walker's tolerated because it's okay to focus on performance. But don't Alienate people who are getting into marathons. Like it's probably the best way to get people into your shoes for life is to have them start a marathon and encourage them on that journey. And then finally if you pull it after two days it shows that you didn't really believe in it. If you guys red teamed that and said we believe in it, we're willing to take the strap for it because we want to go in this direction. But if you pull it because you get criticized by the kind of Internet trolls, it shows that you didn't really believe in it in the first place. And it means that your branding messaging is not authentic. It's just calculated.
- [30:05]
Erica
Yeah. The thing that sucks is the overall direction of where the ad is going is where Nike has to live because it's the most Nike. The problem is that wasn't it. And it like that's where why this is called the art of the brand. Because to your point, a huge point of marathon strategy is to incorporate a walking portion to regulate breathing to be able to go for however many crazy miles a crazy person has to do to make to do a marathon. But my point is is that there's so many ways they could have leaned into copy for how much money they're paying agencies to do those kinds of ads that would have been so Nike esque than like, like ripping people like it's just, it's so, it's so bad. And this is what's wrong with these brands is they ha. Like they get too big. Where I don't understand how, how does shit get approved and how does shit not get approved? Like it just, it blows my mind.
- [31:10]
Philip
It's corporate psychology. Like whenever you get into big organizational psychology, you get people pleasing, you get ambition. And the one thing you'll always, you can always be sure of. Ambitious people in corporations worry more about getting fired than getting promoted. But this is something you should totally get fired at. But people get fired because they contradict their boss. Right? And that's why the boss should get fired from this. And that's why I highly recommend you bring somebody into red team big things. And red team's a military term where your best people make an amazing plan and then you get the other group of the best people you can find often from outside your organization who have no career implications from challenging the CEO or the general who made and then you just rip the plan apart as if you're going. You do everything to question everything told them to do.
- [32:00]
Erica
We went there.
- [32:01]
Philip
Rip the plan apart. Because if they would have had us red team walkers tolerated, we'd be like, guys, what are you doing? Like, say you're champions for being here. The second you feel like quitting, push a little harder. Like, that's a cool message for Nike. You're a champion for showing up here. And when you feel like quitting, push a little harder.
- [32:18]
Erica
No, it should just be push harder. It's so hard to learn from this, from, for where you're at. Other than I would say the best takeaway is be bold, be right, and move quickly. Because these big megaliths, they're just so slow to move and they just, they've lacked, like, critical thinking has left the building. And it's we, we fear, like, we can't compete with these big players. But the big players are failing.
- [32:43]
Philip
Leadership is tough. They got a new CEO in there. You know, we heard that he's printing off the original rules. Like, be on the offensive every always. And maybe they got a little too into those kind of original Phil Knight things beyond the offensive always. But to have a press release come out, another statement that's just watered down nothing. Yeah, that is poor leadership. The CEO should have showed up there and said, my bad. I was doing this because of this. I didn't think about this. We're not going to do it again. You know, like, it's just not great leadership. And I don't, I don't understand why people are scared to like, get in front of that microphone and own spots and take accountability. But all I'm left with is a bad taste in my mouth that Nike doesn't know who it is. They respond by the which way the wind is flowing and it's just, it's left everybody with a bad taste in their mouth.
- [33:32]
Erica
I know. I feel like you just gave a really thoughtful and like, you know, I'm just like, how the fuck did this get approved? Like, when you are at their campus and they celebrate all walks of life and the whole part of the brand has moved into, to use the word equality. Like, Nike is really focused on making everyone an athlete. So I just don't understand for the Boston Marathon, when they are an original running brand, how that gets approved. Like, wake up and wash your face, Nike. Like, I actually just want to be harder on it because until you get this basic shit sorted out, you are the ultimate advertising giant. It is unexcusable to get something out that is off brand. To use a tone like, that's like ChatGPT First Pass. Like, it's not. It's not. It doesn't have the ethos. And I don't know how they're losing that. When people want Nike to win, people want Lululemon to win. Like, the reason why we're talking about this is I hope there's a world that their ears are open enough to listen to this, to want to improve.
- [34:34]
Philip
What I want to know, and I wish we had it, but if I was on the board, I would be like, can I get the meeting minutes or the video of when this was being pitched? And I want to see if anybody in that room said, don't do it. And then I want to promote that person and fire the person that ignored them.
- [34:52]
Erica
Yeah, agreed.
- [34:53]
Philip
Right. But we're not hearing that from the CEO. And I just want to talk on Nike one more time, because we had mentioned it, having visited their campus in Oregon. Amazing. Huge amounts of resources there. But leadership is about doing things that disrupt if you're gonna go to the next level. And my piece of advice to that CEO and the board is, you gotta close down Oregon. You gotta cut the ties to the past. It's great. I know you love it. You're spending a crap ton of money at a place that nobody can get to. I would close that down. I would get the best piece of real estate in LA that you can get and make something that makes Alo's headquarters look like nothing and create an experience where every athlete and tourist who comes to celebrity, celebrity wants to go and work at. But that giant, giant anchor is a psychological weight that is stopping them from getting where they need to go. But that requires giant courage to make a move like that.
- [35:41]
Erica
That was a mic drop moment. I just want to add in for, like, additional fodder because we have the inside scoop. Alo, their entire gym is by invite only. And the celebrities and the big names on socials, creators, influencers, whatever, they love to go there because they have the best trainers. So it's, it's like the reason why the Alo gym is so coveted and I think a real reason why Alo is seen as like, more premium than the other brands is because of how accessible that HQ is. And it's become so accessible, they're creating another headquarters that everybody else that's not in marketing is going to work out of, like the E Comm Team, like all the other teams, and that's only the marketing and branding building. And it's huge. It was the old CAA building. It's like, like three or four floors. Like, it's a massive piece of real estate. But to Your credit. Celebrities aren't going because it's a sceny place to go. They're going because they, they invested the money and it's like the best workout and they've got free valet parking. Like it's so to your point, like you have to be where people are. And like that worked before when they were the first to do it.
- [36:52]
Philip
They were the first known for track. So they were, they were close to truck. But don't be arrogant to think that people have to come to you go where the, where the important people.
- [37:02]
Erica
Our third CEO hit. So Tim Cook steps down from Apple after 15 years. Tim Cook announced that he is stepping down as Apple's CEO and he's moving into an executive chairman role and handing the reins to John Ternus, the SVP of hardware engineering. And it's a really interesting story because we listened to the take on the all in podcast who all, you know, those four guys are leaders in tech and they took a really graceful approach of saying, you know, Tim Cook did a good job because there was no major snafus and because they leaned into privacy, they ended up kind of maintaining that halo of being a loved brand. But I think they're also too close to the industry and that they can't break it open and be real. So let us be the people that do that.
- [37:56]
Philip
Couple insights on the Apple CEO handover. Why I really quite respected what Apple's done is there's a tendency in many companies to kind of hire celebrity CEOs and they bop from every two years from somewhere from Starbucks to here, Sephora to here, right? And they represent what it's supposed to be. And they have Giant, they don't care about the brand. They have such a beautiful severance package. The way it's known that if they fail, you know, there's no blood on their hands, there's no right.
- [38:25]
Erica
But Apple, you can become into the Lululemon CEO and have a lawsuit, but
- [38:29]
Philip
Apple, you know, Apple slowly develops people. Tim Cook worked for Steve Jobs and Steve Jobs told him, don't be beholden to what I do, but you know, learn from it. This new CEO has been, there's a mentorship of the new CEO. They actually are mentoring from within the best people to come and take the reins, which I respect. And so I love seeing a company do that. And Apple. The conversation that I want to engage our listeners with is during Tim Cook's tenure, do you think Apple did enough to preserve the brand like it's been profitable? But did they do anything that was Impressive about the brand because Apple did fail. They lost billions trying to do a smart car.
- [39:13]
Erica
Yep.
- [39:13]
Philip
Their visual thing hasn't worked. Didn't work.
- [39:16]
Erica
The AI not there.
- [39:17]
Philip
I don't know why it sucks. Siri. To this day, Siri is probably the biggest failure of a company of that size I've ever experienced.
- [39:24]
Erica
I think if you were to analyze cortisol spikes in my life, a big component of it is Siri.
- [39:29]
Philip
Like when you have a MacBook, you have a phone and you have a watch. Why can't your Siri be an amazing AI that tracks it all?
- [39:36]
Erica
Like that's my point. Okay. So I do want to get into that because I do think that's where the brand has to go. And it's why I think he's stepping down because he is not a product visionary, but he's a logistics genius and he's very good at holding the ship together. And the brand did pivot under Tim Cook's leadership to being a subscription based brand, which is why they made is why they actually became quite profitable because subscriptions just cost us so much money. Well that's what the subscriptions to the apps and the fee that Apple takes is so high. Which is again another reminder, if you're ever boosting your content, do it on your laptop and not your phone. Because Apple charges 30% on top of the boosting fee than if you do it on your laptop computer, probably the
- [40:22]
Philip
highest margin transaction of all time because what does it take?
- [40:25]
Erica
One of the hotel snacks in your room.
- [40:28]
Philip
That's hilarious.
- [40:28]
Erica
But what I want, you know what I thought was most interesting take that the all in podcast took is they're like look like, you know the question is like when you work for a Michael Jordan, you know, can you be a Michael Jordan again? They're like trying to compare, you know what who Steve Jobs was in the larger Internet of things to whoever could kind of succeed him is like a, is a huge task and a huge ask and I respect that. And I do think that the pivot to privacy was really important during a time of so much uncertainty and like security breaches and security hacking. But the criticism that I would give to the brand is where I think Apple has truly won is like the lack of friction to change devices because the lack of anxiety for upgrading to to a new phone with slightly new features that you do. Your 15 minute add in your Apple ID and all of your apps are in the same position. Your photos are all loaded, your text messages are the exact same order that lack of friction and Lack of anxiety has maintained me more of an Apple user and its interconnectivity into like my laptop and my work desktop, et cetera, iPad. And I think it's that alone that has kept people. But the question is, the further we go into technology, and I think you made this point to me, is it's not so much Apple's success, it's Samsung and Google's lack of, like their failure to not be able to better break into that ecosystem that has allowed Apple to maintain a dominant position. I think that's relevant to breakdown.
- [42:05]
Philip
Yeah, because we would have switched one. We would have switched if it would have been easier to move everything over. I've had a Samsung and a Google phone and a laptop and I just don't think. I don't think Google went all in on trying to win that market, especially because Google Assistant was far better than Siri. And that better assistant actually changes your life more than blue dots. And they didn't really bring a proper marketing strategy to that campaign. And Google is in the spot. They have Gemini. Apple doesn't have an AI software system that it can put in there that works, but Google has Gemini. So if they put that into the system because.
- [42:44]
Erica
Because think of how easy they did, didn't they? Isn't that the big thing? Yeah, they're merging.
- [42:48]
Philip
So one. Yeah. I think Samsung and Google are part of why Apple kept it. So I don't think it's all Tim Cook. I think Tim Cook did a good job being profitable, but there was very little product innovation. I'm interested in what our listeners think about. Has Apple innovated over the last 15 years? Because technology is growing. Science is so amazing. Why is the only improvement over 10 years on my phone, like a better camera? Like, I really feel like tech could do way more, but it's more profitable not to actually push the boundaries. It's profitable just to keep you addicted here, sell you apps. And rather than kind of. It's very hard to break into it. So Apple, there's a giant opportunity for somebody to come in and disrupt Apple's hold on the world. One area that I don't think that the innovated. I don't. Again, I'd love to be in that boardroom where they discuss the VR same. As opposed to making very cool glasses. So it's not Ray Ban, but, you know, have very cool glasses that allow you to track where consumers are looking and give them information. Like the ability to see where people are looking, I think is very valuable to business.
- [43:50]
Erica
Well, that's one of the things they talk about is that like that meta glasses like became so sticky, right? And it's like you're starting to see and like whoop and aura, like you're starting to see tech like Apple watches was such a big bloom and it was like a sticky wearable device. But now you're seeing better innovation in tech from these brands like eight Sleep because Apple's lacking that, that product innov innovation. But what I think was relevant that you brought up that I wanted to touch on is some very smart people that are very high up at a company that I will not name. They said, well, Apple kind of is like this. I don't know what the right analogy is, but it's I want to say like a unique low for the mass public. A lot of the tech that comes into the newest phones, like the facial scanning, the editing out photos in the background, all of the Androids get those way sooner but they're not as good. So what Apple does is like it perfects the tech that comes out so that by the time, because they own a massive percentage of the market share that by the time they introduce it into all of those phones because they know how sticky the Apple products are, it has to be the best version of that tech. And I do think that that's a relevant point because on another hand, like we talked about the orange phones like when they first came out, I that's what I want you guys like to love about this show. Like I'll be the first one to be like, I was wrong. I thought when I saw the orange it was like the stupidest move. But I see more orange phones than I think any other color phone. And truthfully I'm shocked I said that
- [45:28]
Philip
when we were sitting down, when our camera person had it, Nick had it, Sophia had it and the CEO had it and I had it. And I thought I was being brave because you were like, you got the white version of it, you don't want
- [45:40]
Erica
the new phones when they came out and you were like, I really want that orange.
- [45:43]
Philip
I want to get into the orange. And I thought I'd be the only one. And I think now it's the best selling phone of all time or in the last 10 years. Why? I ask our listeners again, I want to know why humans were drawn to this orange phone.
- [45:56]
Erica
I think it's because it's a luxurious color, right? You see it in Hermes, you see it with Gran Turmezzo. Like you only really see that orange in iconic places because it's a color that very eas, but it's not actually Halloween orange. Right. Like, that is more of a luxury orange. It's the Hermes orange. It's orange that you see in Europe. It's a luxe orange.
- [46:19]
Philip
Somebody did a great job pushing to have that. Cause I bet you people were saying, don't do it. And I'd be interested in the argument that resulted in it and why so many people are drawn to the orange.
- [46:28]
Erica
So Tim Cook will give you the orange phone. Let's move on to some trash headlines.
- [46:32]
Philip
So, yeah, it's too much businessy. Let's get trash. Trashy.
- [46:35]
Erica
Let's get trashy. Okay, so the next headline is the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. That has no Mormon wives on it.
- [46:44]
Philip
So, no, it has some Mormon wives who are the good people. But I don't think they could find enough Mormon wives who were sinners because they love the kind of saints versus sinners angle. They break it up into two groups. And so they're. They're kind of masquerading the sinners as being Mormons, and they're not quite that Mormon.
- [47:01]
Erica
I mean, I think to call a show the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, Orange county enforced some of the wives to be son's Mormon. Is it. Where does this go? And I think this is really an example of jumping the shark, which I want you to explain that definition and give reason because it was so brilliant that you explained this to me. Sway is here, guys. He. He comes in with these. These smart liners. One liners.
- [47:25]
Philip
Jumping the shark comes from a very famous TV show called Happy Days, where the f. You guys have heard of Fonzarelli, The Fonzie. Cool. Great show. Amazing show. But in its later seasons, just when it started to fall off, it lost credibility. It had an episode where the Fonzie, who would wear like a leather jacket and a white shirt, slicked hair, it was like the 50s. The episode involved him taking his motorcycle, jumping up a ramp, and jumping over a big tank with a shark in it. Right. And there was all of this hype to it. It was like the season finale. It was all. And it was just kind of disappointing. And it's been used now in the vernacular of writing and in tv, that you jump the shark. Because after that episode, the show never got its luster back. It kind of lost it. And it reflects when companies, organizations go too far doing something to get impact and it fails.
- [48:20]
Erica
Yeah, I mean, I think that that's exactly, exactly what they're doing here is like they're Trying to create. They're losing sight of good TV for the sake of, like, view moments. And it doesn't make like, there's no reason why you shouldn't use, like, the Secret Lives as the premise. Right. So it's like the Real Housewives of New York, the Real Housewives of Long island, the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. You should just call it the Secret Lives of Influencers in Los Angeles. Like, why the Mormon Wives? Like, what?
- [48:52]
Philip
First of all, if any of you haven't watched the movie Idiocracy, go and watch it on Netflix or Prime right now. Because this movie was done before smartphones. Smartphones even existed. It's a crazy movie, and it show forecasts how people are becoming dumb. You have these series of, like, you know, at least the Real Housewives are housewives letting you see their lives. But when you call the Secret Lives and it's a reality show, it's not secret. They're deliberately making it public. Like, there's nothing secret about it. Because it's not hidden cameras.
- [49:25]
Erica
Yeah.
- [49:26]
Philip
It's actually scripted nonsense. And if you're consuming this stuff, it's because you just like to see train wrecks or car wrecks all day long. And then every iteration is the same kind of average production team trying to make more money by just repeating it so there's no creativity in it. And it's going to go to, like, ridiculous levels. The Secret Lives of Mormon Housewives. Like, I want to see the secret lives of Somali housewives. The secret lives of, like, where does it go? Like, and I want to see the actual secret ones. I want. I want hidden cameras. I don't want to see, like, fake nonsense.
- [49:55]
Erica
No. And I think that's, like, the core thing, is that why people are annoyed about this online and why this was sent is, like, you can build up a brand reputation based on somewhat authenticity. Right. Like the mom talk in Utah during COVID How much virality, like, it made sense to give them a show. Same thing with, like, Love Thy Nadir. There's so much fascination around Brooks Naders and her sister that you give him a show because, like, there's, like, there's lore. But the whole idea of this second version is that they're kind of riding off this idea of, like, hate bait. That, like, people will just watch it because they want to rip it apart and they want to say that it's stupid and, like, it indirectly still gets views. But why are we here? And I think also it speaks to, like, why TV is losing it, because it's just more focused on the views than like, I don't want to say the art of television because people will roll their eyes when it comes to reality tv. But. But like the Hills was good. Like it was a great reality TV show. Like a lot of these shows that people like. Like, I mean, I've never been a big Real Housewives person, but like, people love those shows. Cause because to your point, like, there's authenticity, like to just create shows to make people mad so that you can get segments like this so people can watch it and like be angry the whole time. It just, it speaks to like, we're in Rome. You know, it's like it's the. The society is breaking down when like
- [51:13]
Philip
this idiocracy and people are sitting in their, in their moo moos at home eating tortilla ch chips.
- [51:18]
Erica
Like, this is also.
- [51:20]
Philip
These people are so, you know, like move past. Not a good brand.
- [51:23]
Erica
I do want to talk about though, the in on like swinging this the other way is like the Tea by the Sea. Because this shows you that why lo fi content is picking up and what's really competing with like high fidelity, more polished TV channels. So in case you've missed this, this comes from reporter Rose. Shout out to reporter Rose, who's always on the beat for us. Dave Portnoy high has created this segment called Tea by the Sea. And he initially, I mean, Dave Portnoy is the guy like one bite, everyone knows the rules. Like he's a media giant. He owned barstool. He understands having this character and personality and he's not loved and liked by all, but he's got a very strong fan base. And he originally was on this segment called BFFs where they would talk about kind of like the tick tock, I'm gonna call it, teen drama. But he felt like he was too old and kind of like out of, of, you know, out of touch with what was happening. So creates a segment called Tea by the Sea. And he's literally on a beach chair at his place in Florida and he's wearing a hat that says Tea by the sea. And he breaks down daily what's happening on like Internet lore. So he gives his take on Alex Earl versus Alex Cooper or whatever else is like hot for the day and people are tuning in and. And the reason I think this is interesting on another hand is really that you. What you should take away from this is that lo fi episodic content is what you should be leaning into like creat your own version of a TV show. But what's relevant to that is it's no longer becoming, like, new or enough to do episodic content. If you're not focused on developing a character and saying something that is, like, controversial through the lens that you have a point of view that people can argue against. And, like, that's, I think, the core thing to take from this segment. Jump in.
- [53:08]
Philip
P. You know, I just. I struggle when we're doing our content planning. You know, how much production quality we have versus getting imperfect content out in a timely fashion. Right. Because the news cycle is so short, unless it's a giant issue. If you're talking about it five days later, it's kind of like that canoe paddle. You have that swirl, you take three more paddles, and the swirl is now done. So focusing on having perfect production can lose you opportunities to connect with your audience. And you don't have to be talking about, you know, only assassination attempts or Kim Kardashian. You need to be talking about things that are relevant to your audience in a way that's interesting. And by doing it daily or weekly and making it timely, you have a better chance of getting engagement and building an audience than trying to make it perfect and only talking about the giant things.
- [53:57]
Erica
Well, and I think the issue, too, is what a lot of founders miss is they want the outcome without realizing the journey. Right. So one of the first things you ask me is, like, how many viewers he was getting. And he just started this, and, you know, some videos have 27,000, some have 12,000, some have 60,000. But what's relevant to that is, like, on the days that he might go back to back 10, 11, 12,000, he's not giving up, because in media, he understands that you have to do the reps. And I saw it on my feed, truly, probably about 10 or 12 times, and I didn't think it was anything until I saw it a bunch of times. And then. And then people started telling me that it was something. And that's the thing that you really need to. To close your eyes and let me say it twice. It takes time to build a reputation. And that was like the biggest takeaway from the Sammy Neusdorf in the Cockrell pickles. They haven't. They didn't create content for. For eight weeks before the place is opening or before they were launching their brand. They started with enough time that people were, like, were buying it. And my friend Pink leblanc, she's doing it on tik, and I see her content. I try to like it every single time I see it because right now she doesn't have tons of views, she doesn't have tons of comments, but she's, but she's doing the reps.
- [55:17]
Philip
But I want to talk about that because there's, it's kind of psychological, like self abuse to judge yourself by what pop culture is in terms of views like pink. LeBlanc is one of the best colorists in the world. The people who are watching her are the other best colorists in the world. Right. And so if you're going to have a conversation about your business, don't worry, like, don't worry about follower count. If you've got 200 people listening to you talk for 15 minutes, that is absolutely spectacular.
- [55:47]
Erica
Incredible. 200 more than you would have had if you've been hosted.
- [55:49]
Philip
200 people sitting in a theater listening to you. And those 200 people, they might be the only ones who liked it or who viewed the whole thing. They might talk about you. So even if you get 50 people listening to your video, that's freaking amazing because they care about you, they're hearing what you say, they're going to talk about you. So don't beat yourself up saying it has to be like that. Celebrate 10 people listening to you.
- [56:12]
Erica
So I have, we have two more segments and I actually, from a humility standpoint, want to talk about the Kris Jenner one next. So Kris Jenner. There was crazy headlines over the past week and a half that Kris Jenner's facelift was slipping. And initially when I came across my desk, I was like, this is stupid. This is annoying. It was literally less than a year ago. This is just like rage bait. And the more that I listened and I read, I was like, you know what, I'm gonna put together some content on it. And the more I sat, the more I reflected, I actually would have changed the content that I put out on it because I think there's a larger brand implication for when there's so much noise and you lack kind of control over the narrative. So on one hand, because I know that you've got some points on this as well, in case you don't know, Kris Jenner got a facelift from Dr. Levine, who was obviously well known because Kris Jenner is not going to go to someone that's not a proven surgeon. But at the time he charged a hundred thousand, he now charges over 300,000 for a facelift because Kris Jenner's facelift literally broke the Internet. And they went from $1,000 non refundable, non applicable, consult feature fees to $5,000 because. And they. They've shut off their phones. You can't call. It's my referral only. And apparently Kris Jenner gets a cut of every face facelift that comes in. But the point of what's interesting about this is that Dr. Levine has an extremely low profile. She wasn't even going to say what doctor it was until another doctor, Dr. Ben Talay, was actually the one getting credit. Cause he's a Beverly Hills surgeon. And she didn't like that a doctor was getting credit for it that didn't do it. So she's the one that told the New York Post that Dr. Levine did it. So the reason why this whole headline happened is because the photos at Vanity Fair were brutal. Whoever was focused on the lighting at that red carpet probably has been fired and like exited out of red carpet photos. Because it was like the biggest thing on the Internet that, like how bad everybody looked on the red carpet. And based on the photos from that night, people are saying that it's slow. And my point to this is when Dr. Levine doesn't have a personal brand and he has no, he has no ability to control the narrative online. Is that an instance where your brand can hurt you based on there being so much noise, so much attention, so much focus on something that can be taken down by something that's really not tied to the product? Because I don't believe her facelift slipped after less than a year of it happening.
- [58:45]
Philip
We may be talking at two different levels because. Because reality is a construct. And I think what people need to realize is that people are generating a fake reality to distract you, occupy you, or take your money. So she can put out curated pictures that are perfect. That makes a story that gets sent. He gets it. They're all making money. All of the masses are just following this constructed narrative. While there's probably important things in the world we should be focusing on.
- [59:12]
Erica
Yeah, yeah. Not a face left.
- [59:13]
Philip
Kurt Jenner's face left. Lift. When you're 70ish and your life goal is to look 40 or 30 right through filtered images that you selectively post on. I'm going to say that maybe that's not the important thing of life. And by the way, it probably did fall because it's 70. The body is not the same. It doesn't hold things the same way. It's very hard to transform in that way. So. So I don't think it means he's a bad surgeon. I think it means that she's old and doing those Surgeries is very difficult at that age. And I just want people to keep a perspective that the reality is being created for you to distract, occupy and take your money through all of these stories, all of these filters, all of this nonsense. Be smart in your business and serve your customer.
- [60:02]
Erica
Okay, but what's the other level that you think we're talking at?
- [60:04]
Philip
Well, we're just talking about, did it slip? Or, like, to me, I'm like, you paid $300,000. You made.
- [60:10]
Erica
No, you paid 100 and then the price went up because it was.
- [60:12]
Philip
So pay again. But, like, how many are you going to get?
- [60:16]
Erica
It didn't slip, but when are we
- [60:18]
Philip
celebrating as opposed to eight months? I'm sure it probably did.
- [60:21]
Erica
No, the photos were so bad at the Vanity Fair party.
- [60:24]
Philip
No, but there's tons of other photos from different things. I think these are campaigns to construct reality. So you only release photos that show what you want people to see. You don't allow people to take pictures here. You do all this stuff. It's all just.
- [60:36]
Erica
Well, that's the only criticism is the posts that she puts out are filtered and, you know, like, that's.
- [60:42]
Philip
But also, like, go live on Oprah with no filters and have a conversation about the facelift and we'll know for sure.
- [60:48]
Erica
Why. But why? I think that. I think the core. I think the core takeaway, though, is, like, when you look at. Because I don't. Why does she have to do that?
- [60:56]
Philip
Well, if she's making money off of.
- [60:57]
Erica
It's really about the.
- [60:58]
Philip
She's making money off of the facelifts based on that. And it's designed.
- [61:02]
Erica
I get what you're saying, but the question is more. The question, though, is more tied, though, to brand, right? Like, like, if the, The. If her product and the brand of the doctor being this, like, mysterious person that, like, you can't really access, you can't really find, and it's tied to her. Is that a good standard to not have a personal brand in the current landscape of things? If a headline like this in bad lighting could potentially take down your reputation, I guess is my question.
- [61:29]
Philip
Well, I don't know if he has a voice or he's come out and spoke about it, but he sounds like he's just a professional. But he worked a miracle. And for a year. It reminds me of, like, those sci fi movies where old people, People pay money for a drug that makes them look young, and then when the drug goes on short supply, they start to lose it and they start going back to where they were. Like, when you get to that age, maybe you have to have it yearly. Like, I don't know, like, let's. Let's get people to be a little bit more real.
- [61:53]
Erica
All right, well, we exhausted that one. Let's get into our last segment here, which is the Devil Wears Prada is a. The marketing has just been an exhaustive masterclass of earned media value being everywhere at all times. And I think it is worth talking about. So, like, the marketing engine for the devil. Worse, Prada 2 is in absolute or overdrive. From massive airport wraps around ads to target collaborations. They've got Grey Goose partnerships. They even have a devil wears Prada, McDonald's Happy Meal experience. The promotional blitz is everywhere. And there's kind of two sides to this. On one hand, are we living in a world where this is just now the playbook because Barbie did this so well, or is this killing the original movie's magic because they have these franchise licensing deals where they can now operationalize two years in advance to get rugs and cups and shirts and sweaters and lip glosses made after it? That it just makes it, like, tacky. What do you think?
- [62:56]
Philip
Our friend John Sheinberg had a great video on it saying that this is actually Hollywood marketing. Well, because he's a big fan of the. What's that? The flywheel? Yeah, that the story becomes, you know, essentially a mechanism to sell products at every level in different industries. And they're doing a good job in terms of being interfaces. You know, a little suspicious to me that Anne Hathaway has announced the Most Beautiful Woman in the World just as it's launching. Like, I'm always interested in the powers behind that are orchestrating their PR is unmatched, that are orchestrating announcements to get. To create a reality that. That get people. The disappointing thing to me is that the original movie was based on a great book. A real story, like, of a real story of somebody who was the devil, who was successful. Right. Doing an expose. It was a great story. But now we're bringing Wintour up. It's kind of clownifying the whole thing, but it works because it's like what Jurassic park did when it tried to create seven versions of it and amusement parks and. And McDonald's Happy Meals cups. So, like, it works from a business perspective. I think, though, Hollywood is in danger, that if this movie fails because the story is so poorly done or because it breaks the contract with the consumer, that it could actually be one of the nails in the coffin of Hollywood. Because if you're going to spend this much money and convince people to buy into it and it becomes a failure. I'm just going to go watch the TV series being made by a brand or by an influencer by the sea. Yeah. And I'm never going to trust them again. And so although I have no doubt they're gonna make a crap ton of money, I think that if it doesn't come through with a great story, it could help it help speed up the death of the old Hollywood model.
- [64:33]
Erica
I think you're bang on. And it's the thing that was interesting is Barbie was. There's obviously been tons of others that have done it, but Barbie is really the one that I was like, wow, we are in a changing world order for how well it was executed and how much I've learned with, with being in Hollywood. What many of you don't know is that the reason why they're making all of these remakes is because people can, can own like, legacy franchise rights to these movies. So everything is now remakes. So somebody owned the rights to the Devil Wears Prada franchise. They knew three years in advance that they were releasing the funds to do the movie. So the, the rant. The franchisee holder had years to operationalize getting all of these deals in place. And Barbie was the first time we saw that without having this narrative come, you know, come forward. The question, though, is the way that they did it for Barbie, it felt like a cultural moment. It felt like buying. They. They told you that this is a souvenir worth buying. So you wanted to buy some of the products because it tied to a moment in time. It was like an exit through the gift shop experience. If this now becomes the Playbook and we have five or six of these per year, the question is like, does it feel as much of a moment in time and is it going to be as successful? Because Barbie literally had like dog leashes. They had rugs from ruggable. Like, there was so much stuff I was looking at for the house that I felt, I know it's not in her. I know, I know I didn't get any of it. But my point is, is like, is. Does it feel as special when it becomes the Playbook?
- [66:12]
Philip
What I think is interesting is we're talking a lot about world building and how to do that. Well, this isn't really world building because it's not really showing how it's coming to be. It's what I call pre marketing. So what it's doing is it's just saying, hey, you can buy this and it's pre positioning marketing messages. And I don't think it's necessary. It's making it interesting like what happened at the Oscars. Like you can't swing a dead cat without seeing a poster of the Devil Wears Pratta too. It's not really world building. It's. It's building anticipation. And I think when you have enough money to just put it everywhere, people just assume it's worth paying attention to. And I'm not sure it's worth paying attention to unless the story kind of takes the piss out of itself. And I've heard that the story is actually kind of lampooning how the media is so constructed and fake. And this may play into what the premise of the movie is.
- [67:03]
Erica
I think what's really interesting about what you're saying is that I disagree with you. I do. Obviously this is pre marketing and we now live in a world where movies are aggressively pre marketing to generate box office sales because the bar is so much higher to get people in. Where I disagree with you is I do think that the Devil wears Prada 2 is world building, but it's world building for specific people that aren't as in tune with the sophistication of what true world building looks like. So it's a. Of world building because there's a lot of people I've spoken to that aren't as much on the pulse as probably our listeners are that are really excited to go with their girlfriends to get the purse shaped popcorn holder. You know, they're all for like Anna Wintourin and halfway doing a speech together at the Oscars because a lot of people are distracted. Right. Like they're deep in their lives. So they see these moments and they connected to the Devil Wears Prada as a moment in time and they have this nostalgic connection and it like allows them to get out there with their girls. Girls. So there is an element to it that's world building. I think the, the concern on my front is it lacks authenticity, which is what really holds the glue for world building. And the question is, where does this go if everything is a shitty remake with incredible marketing where you just, you lose that trust and credibility because how many shitty remakes are we going to keep showing up for because they do a cute popcorn holder.
- [68:31]
Philip
This is interesting world because like Star wars, you know, I was around very young when Star wars came out. The biggest thing that came out of Star wars was the ability to sell figurines. Yeah, it changed it, right? And it was like the first time it happened. But the reason why that was the
- [68:48]
Erica
whole thing too, right? Like he got the rights to it and it's like what made him like a kajillionaire is.
- [68:52]
Philip
But the reason why people bought it is because they loved the characters.
- [68:55]
Erica
It was. You can bring home a piece of
- [68:58]
Philip
it and they love the character in the story and they wanted to be taken back to the story.
- [69:02]
Erica
Some days I feel like Jabba the Hutt, you know, especially after the weekend.
- [69:07]
Philip
That was Chewbacca. Oh, sorry they made that noise. But anyway.
- [69:09]
Erica
But isn't Chewbacca a Wookiee?
- [69:11]
Philip
Yeah, he's a wookie. Jabba the Hutt was a giant fat lizard. Jack.
- [69:14]
Erica
I know he's a big man and I've got Jabba the Hot arms sometimes. That's why I wear my sleeves on.
- [69:18]
Philip
But what I'm saying is this is kind of trying to pre sale by creating media buzz without the relationship to the story. And that's where it's. You can break the contract because we don't know what the story is. We're just kind of anticipatory, buying something that the idea of what it could be.
- [69:36]
Erica
This is the thing though. They are selling the story. That's the problem. I just think that it's gonna be a shitty remake, like, for a lot of people. For them to see a cover of Meryl Streep and Anna Wintour that aren't as dialed in to what's happening at Vogue and all of the headlines in their distracted world. Order of things, things. That is a data point. That's a marketing point. For them to be like, Anna Wintour acknowledges Meryl Streep is playing her. Like that to a lot of people is. But like, that's the problem of noise versus signal. I. I'm on LinkedIn. I've seen probably 10 women I deeply respect that are like, this is a power move. We love this cover. This is great. And I'm sitting here and I'm like, how can this, this remake be as good as the hype makes it look?
- [70:22]
Philip
I. I'll get some hate from it. I respect a lot of men who say stupid things about sports teams right online. That's that kind of level of thinking, right? I. I think they're saying it's a power move. Like, I think it's just, it's just, it's just a dollar. It's just a dollar's move.
- [70:36]
Erica
It is.
- [70:37]
Philip
And if it doesn't.
- [70:38]
Erica
No, it's a failing brand move. Like for Anna Wintour for literally being legacy the devil that wears Prada. Like she is the like absolute reset, like relentless CEO that can't let go of power that created the most powerful women's fashion magazine in the history of it. She owns the fashion world like she is God in living form in the, in, in the fashion world. And for that person to acquiesce to a movie that, that makes fun of her shows you that it's a it. She's not in a strong chess position.
- [71:14]
Philip
It could be a legacy kill, but there's a lot of money there and people will can sell it. Like, if I was advising her, I would say, Anna, you've had an amazing life, like killer. Maybe write a sequel called the useless wear Birkenstocks. Right, and talk about how many people had their feelings hurt as you were trying to build an empire. Like actually take the story and now give it from your perspective rather than from the perspective of somebody who didn't like it. That would be a way to preserve the legacy. Do something interesting. This is just a giant, giant business model that if it doesn't come through, will remove trust in Hollywood. Maybe for the last time.
- [71:51]
Erica
Well, I think that wraps up this week's episode. Philip, thank you for the fantastic sound, boys.
- [71:56]
Philip
I've had Birkenstocks.
- [71:57]
Erica
So you have Birkenstocks. I wear Birkenstocks. I do think the brand alignment could have been better, but I think the point was dead on and I think you gave some people a great chuckle. Well, guys, I hope you've enjoyed our California escapade. I hope you nothing but the best this week. Follow if you're not following, share this to somebody else. If you felt like you learned something,
- [72:18]
Philip
put aside the last couple weeks in October for our amazing summit where you were going to learn everything we can teach you and the top people can teach you on the business of branding. Look, you know I live for conferences. I love organizing conferences, making the best legal natal conferences, business conferences. This conference is going to be be one of the best experiences for any founder who wants to know more about the business of branding.
- [72:42]
Erica
Have a fantastic day, guys.