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- [00:00]
A
It's this little piece of music for intel, and I have to admit, I didn't know what intel was. Three seconds of music. There was nothing like this out there.
- [00:19]
B
Walter, it is. Welcome to Art of the Brand. I'm so excited to have you. You are the most unexpecting outreach, so I'm excited to chat with you.
- [00:31]
A
Hey, Camille, thank you for having me on. And I was excited to find you on TikTok. It's like, I honestly love that channel. And I learned so much in TikTok that I'm even sharing that with my students at the university.
- [00:49]
B
That's so awesome. Well, let's talk about your background. So. So, Walter, tell me about a little bit about yourself and your foray into branding.
- [00:58]
A
Okay. So I was born in Vienna and really didn't like it. So I left to Los Angeles postgraduate at usc, and I got really lucky. And I think all the stars were aligned, even at the tsa. At the time, I didn't have a visa, but they let me in. Were so many things which you wouldn't even think they're possible those days. And when I graduated, a friend of mine told me Disney was looking for composers for trailer composers. And I wasn't really good in English at all. I didn't know what trailers were, and so I really kind of made fun of it. And those were the days. When you record yourself on a cassette, it's, like, far away from zooms and iPhones and whatnot. There's just 93. And I yodeled on the cassette. I put some weird sound effects from the alms on it, like the Alps in Austria. And at the very end, I said, so if you want to. If you want to like working with me, call me at 213, 500, blah, blah, blah. And I sent that cassette in. It was a chrome, like, this golden chrome cassette. And the kids wouldn't know what it is now. And two weeks later, I'm getting a call, of course, landline at the time. And Disney was on the phone and said, wow, your tape really impressed us. And first of all, it was a joke. Maybe the students would call. And I was joking back and forth. And then I realized this is really Disney calling me and had a meeting there. And I got the job to work in the trailer department at Disney. And the person who was running the department wasn't there quite often. I guess he trusted that I would do a good job. And at that time, I did, like, 20 or 30 trailers. And when I went to the Chinese theater, I saw, like, Four or five of my tracks in that. It was just so powerful. And so the days a pretty woman like that movie and watching that movie and then suddenly realizing that the story is happening just right behind me, just sitting in that movie. Being born in Austria, this was, it was like, it was unbelievable to have this feeling. And so, yeah, I got lucky and stayed in the States and became citizen and had the chance to work with Steven Spielberg and did a lot of audio branding.
- [03:47]
B
And so you became an expert in audio branding. That's how you defined yourself to me as an audio branding expert.
- [03:56]
A
Yeah. And that was also just by chance, that company, Imagine Force, it was the hippest or is the hippest graphic design, motion design company in la. And their junior designer called me at one point, said, hey Walter, I have this job, it's this little piece of music for Intel. And I have to admit I didn't know what intel was. So drove in and he showed me a storyboard and there were six pictures of the intel spiral. And then when he told me this is three seconds long, I said, are you crazy? It's like three seconds of music. You can't even say a sentence in three seconds. And are they really paying for that? So yes, they will pay for that. And it's like it's just three seconds of music. There's nothing. And on the way back to my studio I already realized it's really difficult. Three seconds of music. There was nothing like this out there. And so I, I was just listening to tracks from the Beatles to whatever there was in the charts and Mozart and Bach had tried everything and everything sounded chopped off or just an unfinished sentence. Like if you want to say a sentence and it stops and it was really frustrating. And I got the job. I think it was a Friday and by the weekend I was getting really nervous because I promised to have something on Monday. It sounded very simple and easy. And so I remember that Sunday I took again the storyboard on the piano and looked at it and the tagline would say intel inside. For that was the first tagline of intel and they wanted to promote that. They have those processes now in computers and you know, 91 or 92 and three, like the beginning of the 90s, people wouldn't even know what processes were. Nobody would take a computer apart. Not everybody had one. We still had dial up service so you couldn't even send emails all day long. It was just, you must think we are in the dinosaur land. It was really, really different. Everything. And so people had no clue what the Processor would really do. And do you really need a fast one? No answer. And so I sat down and thought, if this was a song, what would I do? I probably would write a melody around intel inside. So you have four notes. Four different. Maybe different, same notes. And since this is for engineers and it's very precise, very mathematical, maybe it's a rhythm which is super. Even so that felt good as well. But if it's melodic, maybe I should use two intervals. And he told me as well, it should resonate for everybody in the world. It shouldn't have any connotation to maybe classical music or Indian music. It's like intel was also majorly partly Indian employees, so it shouldn't feel like in that world and not too Western. And two intervals that do this, the fourth and the fifth. So basically constructed it and added a sound in the beginning. Because I thought if they have a commercial track, jazz or whatever they have in the beginning, it would feel weird to have some funny music. And then the melody starts. So I called it a palate cleanser. Like almost when you drink some water before you drink the good red wine, it has pink. It sustains, creates the feeling of the melody. And then the melody comes in and explained this to Kyle when I before I played the music and he said, well, that sounds interesting. And I played it for him and said, that sounds good. And basically that was it. And later on I realized my company and I, we've done probably 100, 150 big audio brandings. It never ever happened that it was that easy because they always ask us to copy the intel and it's hard to.
- [08:30]
B
Oh, that's so interesting. So because that had become so successful and so prolific, every other one after that wanted you just to recreate.
- [08:42]
A
Was the most performed melody broadcast in the 90s. And I remember it was days when my kids went to school and it was in the radio all the time when we drove to school and they came up. It's an old, steady song. It was just a really cute moment to feel so cool, like very proud being with them.
- [09:03]
B
That's so cool. And does intel still use it today?
- [09:06]
A
Yes, it's the longest used mnemonic out there. It went through many iterations with countless iterations. But then the music law is a part of it and you cannot and must not change the timing because it's. There's a copyright behind it. And if I would change a note, if I would change the timing of it, they would have to register it again. So they're very, very religiously accurate about it that it can't change too much.
- [09:42]
B
Let me negotiated a really good contract for yourself so that every, every time in your plate you get paid.
- [09:52]
A
Remaking it was definitely much more money than creating at the time because, you know, to be honest, it's like thinking in the 90s and somebody asked you to write 30 seconds of music. There's not too much work to that.
- [10:05]
B
Yeah, yeah. But there was. Because it used it for a lifetime.
- [10:09]
A
Yes. I think internally they once told me that it had a value of 5 or 6 billion to them because of the media buy and all of that and the power behind it. And they're great. Invited me many times. We had a concert in Las Vegas and then we did this Beethoven intel mashup where we used the fifth Symphony and Beethoven brought it together in a very respectful way. It's like with a, an orchestra we recorded in Vienna and still beautiful moments. It's like, it's. It's like they made a little documentary on this and making off. So yeah, it's like. And, and you know, the funniest part is because it's so short, I would not talk about it in the beginning. I was kind of, I have to admit, not. Yeah. Not proud of it at all. I wouldn't tell my professors in Vienna, if they asked me what I would do, I would never mention it because it felt like if you write symphonies and big orchestral work and then there's like this one little thing with four notes that's not worth much, but that is outshining everything else I've done.
- [11:30]
B
Well, it's so funny to put it into perspective like from your classical training. Right. Like it's unfinished work. Like it's not even the same planet of like what you've been trained to, to do. But the reason why it was so good was because of all of your training.
- [11:48]
A
I'm sure it is part of it. And I think because it's constructed and they flew me to Beijing to talk about it, I really believe the power behind it is the story. And when ever there's a story behind mnemonic, it is so much easier and, and better to convey this to the clients and, and, and people recognize this. So even if you don't know the initial meaning, it's like it, it, it's subconsciously in there. I think you can sing intel inside along with it and that resonates and creates a sensation and a memory. And the power of music is just so incredible that I'm sure you have songs when you hear a split Second of it, all the feelings come back. What you have done in that moment, scent and light and visuals. It really is an incredible pun intended mnemonic. It creates experiences.
- [13:03]
B
No, 100%. I mean, marketing and branding is storytelling. Right. And that's where it's so difficult in our profession, because when you provide something great to a client, you know, it took years of your training to be able to get to telling that story. And it's so difficult to quantify that value because it can sound so simple, but it's so good, and that's what makes it so memorable. A simple is harder to get to. Not from a building of a symphony, but from like a general practicality. It's harder to do simple.
- [13:37]
A
Yeah, Einstein said that as well. Being simple is really difficult. There's like that simple, which is everything falling apart, but then there's a simple where you can't take anything away. And it's. It's is just this incredible thing. And that was the relativity theory. And there's so many incredible, simple, small things which build our lives.
- [14:03]
B
That's so cool. So what do you teach now at the university?
- [14:08]
A
They called me in because I worked a lot in film in Los Angeles to build the Chair of Film Music in Vienna. And it's a beautiful, great opportunity to work with young people. And they're so good. It's like the students that come in worldwide and the MDV in Vienna is ranking one step above Juilliard.
- [14:37]
B
No, it's the. It's the school.
- [14:40]
A
It's just really, really great. And even so cool that Red Bull came in and said they want to sponsor orchestra se for my students. So they took a lot of money in the hands, and we had an amazing studio and musician playing that music. And if you see the eyes of those students when they listen to the music with big orchestra and the synthesizers, it's just unbelievable.
- [15:10]
B
It's really cool how Red Bull diversified their brand to become more of a production company. And I know that the Red Bull hockey team has quite a bit of money. And that is in Aust, right?
- [15:22]
A
Yeah, yeah. And the soccer team and the Formula One team is like beating them. It just. Mr. Mateschitsu is an Austrian. Was an Austrian. He. He passed. Unfortunately, he just had like this incredible intuition what to do next. And he didn't want commercials. He just wanted to create amazing content which is earned media. It's so much more worth. It's like, because you don't want to see a Red Bull commercial, but you want to see like this athlete climbing up the highest mountain and. And not even drinking the Red Bull, but there's some little logo there. And you know, this is beautifully produced and it's so powerful.
- [16:07]
B
Red Bull is just. I've got a few clients that are in the energy drink category and it's so interesting because to me, I think it's like the best competitor to have. And then for them, they're like, it's the worst competitor to have because to me, like, Red Bu Bull is in such a league of its own. But it's. Red Bull is such a great master class for branding, not energy drink. Do you know what I mean? Like, it doesn't. It's not that it's killing the cat. It is, obviously, but I'm saying it's more than that. Like, they're so culturally relevant. Like when you look at doing things that are experience focused, that are brand focused, not focused on selling your product.
- [16:48]
A
Exactly. You totally see it, how they want to be seen and their experience. It's like, you don't drink that liquid. You drink experience and that shows and earned. Media is, I think, the new currency for everything. Three years ago I had this great pun intended wake up call. I was still in bed and, and, and I got this call, hey, Walter, do you want to write a symphony with Beethoven First? I thought again, it's a joke, and joked back, yeah, it's like, I want to write Jimi Hendrix as well and the Beatles and Radiohead. And he said, stay focused, let's do Beethoven first. So I realized this guy's for real. And he said, Harvard, Rutgers University and Cornell, putting a team together. And they want me to be the composer lead for an AI generated tense symphony like Beethoven before he died, did some sketches and he was like this incredible, gifted, crazy composer. He walked the vineyards and when he had ideas, he would pen them down in his booklet and then mull over it overnight. And he. I think he moved 15 or 16 times here in Austria because it was a very loud neighbor and played all night long and people didn't really like that. So he had like those very cool themes for the 10th Symphony, but it's so little music that you can't make a symphony with it. And someone had this great idea, Matthias Reuter and Telecom Magenta in Germany, to use human composer and AI to finish it. And why AI? And I learned so much there. It's like AI is the only modality that could be even with Beethoven because you and I listen to so much more music than Beethoven did. Because, you know, whatever the sounds of Fred Again or whoever. And Beethoven wasn't in that genre, of course. But AI could be fed that it only knows Beethoven music or Mozart or anybody who was born before him. And he might have listened to and started on that basis. So taking in, we called it a seed, like one of the themes and render that in AI. Only AI could do this because of that experience level. And then I would get those snippets that are longer and start arranging them, composing them. And then we suddenly had the 10th Symphony ready and we performed it in Germany at the ALP Philharmonie and was really successful. And Robbie Williams heard about it and said he wants to have Beethoven, his next release. And so I could work with him on rearranging the Angel Song that it had orchestra in there. And so the introduction is Beethoven AI, which we collaborated with. And when we performed this live, he was so stunned by the orchestra. It was just so an incredible orchestra feeling in there that he forgot like the first two notes to enter back, like after the instrumental section. And he just stood there on stage and was mesmerized. And the whole thing between the Beethoven and Robbie Williams brought Deutsche Telekom over $1 billion in earned media. And wow, that's quite a success.
- [20:59]
B
That is crazy cool.
- [21:03]
A
And so for next year we do Johann Strauss. So that I love collaborating with AI I think AI is here as an amazing tool and some people abuse it, but for the most part of it, it's just incredible.
- [21:23]
B
How much of AI is playing a role in your traditional teachings of orchestra and symphony?
- [21:33]
A
That's a good question. In terms of production, in terms of sound, it's a lot. It's probably 80, 80% already. In terms of composing, not that much. I'm trying to lure the students to use AI for really different ideas. You could think of, let's say, the Greek architecture of temples. Use that mathematical scheme and import this into some Beethoven and it's something you can't imagine, but AI could do. And once you hear it, then you can take this as a great beginning of an idea and compose something extraordinary.
- [22:32]
B
Wow. Really fascinating. Was the university open or against AI.
- [22:41]
A
Before I started? They were very scared of it.
- [22:44]
B
I bet.
- [22:45]
A
I think I could help that they see AI as a collaborator.
- [22:57]
B
And what you have to work through to get them to change their opinion. I mean, like MDW is really a traditional school.
- [23:07]
A
It is very traditional. It's 3,000 students and probably 2,000 in a good way. Very traditional. It's like they're there to play the Mozarts and you be doing this the right world. Then there's some a little bit more open and they're probably 2, 300 that are really modern and hungry for the latest and greatest and ingest it and spit it out in the best new ways. And I think that's okay. It's such a new field that we have to experiment and we have to be cautious but not fearful about that. And I admire and I'm friend with Rifik Anadol. He just does this most amazing work with AI.
- [24:06]
B
He's the favorite. He is absolutely my favorite. If you could, like, get him on the out of the brand, I would, you know, be very fake. I love his fabulous.
- [24:21]
A
I think it was ten years ago now. I worked the first time with him. He was still at UCLA student. And you and company hired him with this project in Los Angeles for the New Year's projection. It's the distinct grand park where the City hall is projected on. And we did the music and it was great working with him and he stood out. He was helping in the student the next year. He was even more literate about his whole projection mapping and so on and on. And then the next time I saw him, met him again at south by Southwest with his ideas. And four years ago, I could bring him into a project that we did here in Vienna, Mutus Mozart. We did this Mozart experience and he did one room and it was just so fantastic to work with him. He's one of the most joyful artists who is. I don't know how he does it without, like, any chemicals. And. And he's just always peaceful happy. He's so. It's like, yes, let's do this. And we want to. And we can do this on top of it. He is so inspiring, and I'm so happy for him that he's at the top of the world. They want to do a sphere in Dubai now.
- [25:46]
B
He's got. I mean, his stuff is so ahead of the curve, and it's so like, you can stare at it forever. It's so like the way that it bleeds outside the lines and it just. It's something that you actually just feel like you're in a trance when you look at it. Like, it's so captivating.
- [26:07]
A
Yeah, it's fantastic. And he so deserves it. He's so smart and an incredible person.
- [26:19]
B
Have you composed music to go with his art?
- [26:24]
A
Yeah, we've done a show together, which is a permanent installation in Vienna. And then also the grand park experiences.
- [26:35]
B
So cool. So you're now permanently in Vienna.
- [26:41]
A
I'M flying back and forth. Two weeks ago was in LA and we recorded at Sony, a big project. And it's like the energy in the United States, it's just nothing like this. No, it's unlike. And the people, it's unmatched. It's just. Especially in LA or New York, it's like if you work with the artist there, it's unspeakable. It's a little disconcerting that so many things close down and don't work anymore. The homelessness is awful. It's like there's so many poor people.
- [27:26]
B
Even Melrose, like, it's half out fully. Like, it's. It's apocalyptic to see la.
- [27:32]
A
Like, yeah, we have our house next to the Griffiths Observatory. And this was just this park area, which was so peaceful and deer running around. And now when you just drive down Los Feliz, there's so many tents and those poor people, there's no way to go. And we have to find a solution how to help them.
- [28:02]
B
Yeah, it's a big problem. It really is. So what are you doing? Where do you say that you're. Where are you right now with audio branding? Where do you think the state of audio branding is?
- [28:17]
A
It seems it becomes more and more important by the day, and most important is to be a visionary here. And my next big thing will be audio branding, which is spatial and interactive, and I can't say more to that. And I hope it will be released soon and different. And I'll let you know, I promise.
- [28:48]
B
Okay, fine. And are you going to.
- [28:53]
A
Oh, this will be released worldwide, of course.
- [28:58]
B
So maybe you'll have to come back on the art of the brand to talk about it.
- [29:02]
A
Yes, of course. And the last big one we did was AMD, which was released this year. You know, we have AMD and Intel. That was February of 24. And I would love to do Nvidia. I know they have one, but I think they can be better.
- [29:25]
B
Cool. That's awesome. What is another cool story that I can pull from your archives?
- [29:35]
A
Oh, this was. Maybe it's the Delta Mnemonic. Delta called and asked me if I'm up for writing a mnemonic for them. I said, yeah, I'd love to. And they said, we'll have a shootout with five audio agencies. And I said, you know, I don't believe in the shootouts. It's like hire any company you really feel good with. But composing three seconds of music and five companies doing this is not fair to you and not fair to anybody because there's Cross talk. And. And you will go crazy if you listen to 150 different mnemonics at the end. And I didn't hear from them for five months or so. Suddenly they called and basically said, you were right. It was chaos. How can we work together? And said, okay, fly me to Atlanta, to the Hub, and I want to really learn about your company first and see what's happening and so it can really create your story, your audio story. They flew me in and I'm coming to the board meeting, and there's like all these suits and pretty stressed people and asking them about the brand, about the feelings, and they were really depressed. It's like a saying, well, nobody likes to fly. And this was a year and a half, I think, after 2000, the 9, 11, and it's noisy up there and it's late. And it seemed like whatever they said was negative. And I said, is there anything positive so you can share? Because I would like to tell a positive story. And we're thinking. And then again, they talked about the noise up there. And she said, you know what? Then let's be Zen about it. Let's embrace the sound. Give me the chance to bring an orchestra on a plane and be tuned to the sound. So basically we make that noise, that sound up there, a beautiful drone, something you would now hear in a Hans Zima Dune movie. And the tuning in into that sound could be like lifting up airplanes. And this is. Wow, that sounds like a great idea. Let's do it. You know, Kaden, just give me an airplane and I'll bring the orchestra. We never had the chance to fly the orchestra on the plane, but we winged it in a stage. And again, this was like finding an audio story, a story that makes sense and then everybody understood it and it worked.
- [32:39]
B
That's really cool. I would love to get your permission to put that story in my book because. Because I. I always start with the process to discover, and it's often what brands and what service providers want to rush. And you can't get to that. That end result without going through the process to discover and to almost be Zen about it of, like, you can't rush greatness. You need to, like, really understand. And that's where art comes from.
- [33:17]
A
Yeah. And you have to be open that when the moment is there to basically, like, being the antenna and take it in. It's like receive it. When. When I did lg, it's like they wanted to be LG Electronics. They wanted to be playful kids. Like. And I remember I was on A plane. And there was this mom in front of me and playing with a baby. And she was like, they look this kind of little baby sing song. And I took that as an initiative to. For that melody played with like wooden kids, like instruments. And they liked it right away. There's some. And. And, oh, maybe that's a story you might like. This was also in the 90s. I wasn't well known whatsoever, but I had a friend at the other graphics company and he called me in the afternoon, said, hey, Walter, I'm working on this blockbuster. And the director really doesn't like the music of the composer. But I'm doing the. He's doing the main titles to that movie and he needs to have good music. And I said, okay, give me a week. Said, no, Walter, we have the next presentation tomorrow. Give me the. Give me the track, give me the visuals. And it was Eraser with Arnold Schwarzenegger and Vanessa Williams. And of course I stayed up all night long and at 4 o'clock in the morning, I did sound design and music. I was so tired that when I played this string line on the synthesizer, I pushed two buttons at once, two keys at once, and it was this dissonance. And normally, as the traditional composer, if it's not what you have in your head and if it doesn't play like this, you don't listen to it. But it was 4 o'clock and tired and listened and thought, man, this is not what I wanted. But it looks. It sounds very cool. And I left that mistake in there. And so next day he presented it to the director, the director really liked it and gave it to the composer to do something in the style of the composer. And I was furious. I said, you know what? I spent all my night and I had a great idea and now somebody else is basically taking my idea. So I was miserable. And four days later and getting another call that, you know, got a guy had a chance, we'll take your music. And basically this was done in one night with one big mistake and my first big movie in the movie theaters. And. And so I met Arnold Schwarzenegger in la. He's Austrian as well, after the fact. And he was, he was very proud and met me there and said, well, it was a good job here. It's like. And he was lovely.
- [36:26]
B
That's awesome. I mean, I recently read his book. He really is more than what you expect.
- [36:35]
A
Yeah, he is a fantastic speaker. He is a great thinker. I think he helped California a lot. I wouldn't agree with his choices. Towards women. I think he could be different there. But then it's like that's probably not a good conversation. But like. But fortunately.
- [37:07]
B
Go ahead. Sorry.
- [37:09]
A
But fortunately a lot is changing and that now the people are trusting women when they come out and talk about stories and as in that sense, I think we're in the best time ever. Like Steve Jobs always said he would like to have artists make hit songs in the bedrooms and feeling safe because again, when I grew up in the business, you had to be and especially women. It's like it was hard for women in the record business because there were like those sharks in there and awful situations quite often. And right now Billie Eilish was with her brother more or less in the bedroom and wrote amazing music, produced it and she became the biggest star ever out of her bedroom. And that was the biggest dream of Steve Jobs. And so it's democratizing it and you can't do everything anywhere. You don't need those big companies anymore of favors.
- [38:22]
B
I completely agree. I think that's a big part of my message is like it's never been better to be in business, period, you know, male or female, but also as a female. But it's the time to put yourself out there, like lean in. Like the, the world is waiting for you. It's, it's not, it's, it's not going to take you and give it to you. You got to take advantage of the opportunity that's in front of you. And you're so right. That's such a cool story about what Steve Jobs wanted and how Billie Eilish became famous.
- [38:58]
A
When did you realize that you made it? Did you wake up one day and you knew? Oh my God.
- [39:07]
B
You know, it's funny because I, I don't feel like I have, you know, like to me life is, life is a gift. But like I haven't reached my destination. Like it's. I, I just feel like it's a big blue ocean and I'm just still swimming in the shallow end. Like every week the, the work, the Internet is this big, you know, like I get to meet and spend, speak to the most amazing people because the Internet allows me to. So I, I don't, I don't feel like I've had them. I've had moments where I'm really thankful. I worked through the period of uncomfortability where I've. Where I've realized, especially with still being young, that I deserve a seat at this table. Like some. Like obviously something I have to say is, is valuable and there's been those moments that have been really cool in my moment of growth. But I don't know if I'm reading right now. I'm finishing, actually, Michael Ovitz's book. And like, I'm at, like, chapter 12, and it's like, you know, it's. He. He just kept doing so many incredible things, but, like, I'm still at chapter 12, and I'm like, holy shit. Like, you didn't give up. Like, you had Robert Redford as clients, and you kept going. And it's. That's kind of the question is like, you know, when is it? And I almost don't want it to be too early, because then I think that that's where, like, unhappiness breeds, is like, if you get too high too early.
- [40:40]
A
But you're on an amazing journey. And I think all of us have those days where we wake up and feel like in the pasture and.
- [40:51]
B
Yeah.
- [40:52]
A
And just being lucky. And I wish for you. And everybody's listening to. To think back if you ever had that experience. You were in the car and you were singing, and suddenly your aunt or somebody is yelling, camille, stop singing. And the tragedy is that you believe that person, that if you leave that person more than your ability to sing, and you would never sing again or never write poetry anymore, never draw anymore. And also here I think AI can help us to be that supporter, because we have amazing moments with humans, but we have also those moments that crush us, or we should say that we allow that they crush us. Because you might have believed your aunt that. Oh, my words. The worst thing. I will never sing again.
- [41:49]
B
This is your perspective is what AI lacks is emotion. Right. So the. The emotion element of jealousy, of greed, of. Of love, you know, it can. It can cloud your judgment and take you off the right track or on the wrong track. Right. That's an interesting perspective. It's like, you know, AI doesn't have that emotion. Like, it's just going to tell you if this is good or this is. Is better or it can be better.
- [42:21]
A
Absolutely. And. And. And that you have a different ability of choice than the AI Whenever I start a new year at the university, my first question is to the students, and those are already master students. What is music? Can you describe. Can you tell me what is music? Not by describing the effect of music, but what is the essence of music? And so far, I never, ever received a really simple, satisfactory answer. And I found that in a book. I didn't come up with it. Edgar Vera is a French composer, said Music is organized sound.
- [43:10]
B
Yeah. Ooh.
- [43:12]
A
Which is an incredible statement. But to me there was something missing because now if a fire truck, a fire engine is driving by and is playing his horn, it is a musical interval. But is it music? And you. And I probably would say it's not music. But if John Cage, when he did his concert and would open the doors and the environment became part of his composition, then suddenly it's music. So I think the missing word is intention. And I would say that music is intentional, organized sound. I mean, you see it this way.
- [43:54]
B
That's what made John Cage so fascinating though, was like he pushed the limits and asked me, you asked that question. I remember one of my professors in university did that. What was it like six minutes of silence. And like, how jarring it was to sit there and to like, be like, where is the sound? So that's it. It's such a. But, but he's a philosopher, you know, like in.
- [44:25]
A
Yes, yes. He had so much to say politically as well. And, and, and. And had the audience in his hands because you, you wouldn't even dare to cough in that moment. People cough after they got off.
- [44:43]
B
You were on the edge of your seat even listening to it. Yeah. You're like, how. How long was the silence? Was it four minutes?
- [44:52]
A
4:30.
- [44:53]
B
I think it was called 4:33, 4:32 or something random. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was the name of the song, right? It's like 4:30. Yeah, yeah. That was a really. 4:33 or 3:44. Ah, yeah. That is so. You're right. So powerful.
- [45:21]
A
That's a message and. And also technology and ideas are so important. And if you think technology always helped musician. It's like the Beatles had sound because technology became important and how you record. And the first synthesizers and effects. And later on Skrillex, he used the synthesizers differently. And the 808 drum opened up a new genre of music. In the beginning, people were afraid that they would lose their jobs, like the American Federation of Musicians, that only drummers were allowed to program drum computers because they were afraid that it's a dying breed to be a drummer. And look what happened. We have amazing dramas. But the 808 defined a new style of music. Hip hop without 808 wouldn't be hip hop. And same thing with AI. I think we are starting to work with new soundscapes and it's like pioneering. It's almost like the cowboys in the Wild west with going to new land and exploring it. And it's powerful and interesting.
- [46:43]
B
Well, it's so fascinating when you realize, not to someone at your level, but when you talk about music being organized sound, you know, like music that we like is an algorithm. Like it's repeatable. So to have AI to be able to speed up what we already know for the melodies, the drops, like that, for what our brains like where the potential of music can go. Because music is everything. Like human society is built around the connection of music. So if we can tap into what makes music good or great, imagine the kind of music that we can produce. It was the other day, I was driving and the first, you know, four chords of the Beatles. What is the famous song about?
- [47:33]
A
The song Love. No, Here comes his hand.
- [47:37]
B
Yeah. And it was like never, it never gets old, you know, like at the moment you hear it, it's sunshine like it is. It is a bright light on your childhood. Yes. Like it's, it, it's, it's. It's actually like. It's, it's human experience. That song like to. To listen to those chords.
- [48:00]
A
Yeah. And George Harrison used synthesize. That's one of the first tracks with synthesizers solely in the. It's, it's. They were so far ahead of time like Radiohead was now. And so many bands, they really change mankind. Maybe here's an interesting story as well for you because you just touched that point. Health and well being. I really believe more and more that music is here for our well being and more so than the entertainment. And when my youngest son was five years old, he had an illness. It was pretty like a very rare, very rough illness. And my wife, when she heard the hospital, said he should be in surgery or is. He has to be in bed for two years, said we have to do a different route. And so she picked osteopathy, acupuncture and sound healing. And a year later he was fine. It was incredible recovery. And when we brought him back to UCLA Health, to the hospital, they said what did you guys do? This is just have never seen that before. And I realized that music and sound was a huge part of that recovery. And so as a thank you, I was in the part of my life where I can give back to the world. I founded a non profit. It's called Health Tunes. And Health Tunes is basically streaming music medicine. It's preventive like it. It's music for pretty much anything you can think of it. If this is Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, even epilepsy, we have a medical study, 70% lesser seizures. And then for the young people, stress, anxiety, Burnout, depression. There is music for every person out there and. And it's evidence based and. And we can. That music can help so many people and it's so good to see how they use it.
- [50:27]
B
When I was in, I spent a lot of time in Southeast Asia and the first time I really heard like the gong and the sound baths. Like there is something religious to frequency and it makes sense why religions were so attracted to those frequencies of sound. Like the way that your hair just kind of. You can feel it like stand up into like in your. Like it's just. It's religious and there's something to frequency that I feel like we need to study more even. I mean, I don't know much more than this statement. But like when they play music beside a plant and no music beside another plant, the plant that gets music grows more.
- [51:17]
A
It grows faster. It's like people in hospitals, if they have no stimuli or music, the right music heal 30% faster. And if. Even if they look, they're now into forests or into greenery even faster. So it's. It's like I think we finally also in this amazing time where we realized that nature is so important, that music is an important factor. Nutrition.
- [51:46]
B
It's back to our roots. Right? Like, think about when you go through anything difficult. You know, you lose someone, you're grieving, you go through a breakup, you're really at a great day at work. Like, I find so much of my day is consuming information, but there are these, these peaks and valleys in life where I turn to music to heal. You know, like I have. I have songs when somebody dies, or I have songs when I'm feeling loss or grief, or I have songs when I had a great day at work. Like, music allows me to regulate, allows me to cope. It allows me to. To be more of whatever I'm being, you know, like being more human.
- [52:29]
A
And. Absolutely. I love what you just mentioned. And music has something which is paradox, that sad music can make us incredibly happy.
- [52:41]
B
It heals.
- [52:43]
A
It heals. Yeah. And that's the part that this music is not bawling, but it's a positiveness. It's like there's a crying where it. Where you suffer and you don't feel well. But with music, it helps you to get emotions out. Yeah, yeah. Not feeling.
- [53:01]
B
It's fantastic. I don't get to talk about. I studied music too. I went to art school for most of my childhood and then I went on to almost. I never got to speak on it. But like music is everything. Music is Music is. It's so funny. I can't remember movie quotes for the life of me. But once I hear a song, I can't forget the words. So I'm like a funny jukebox. Like, I can almost sing any song that's on the radio. Rock and roll, rap, pop, top 100, country. But a movie I've watched 20 times couldn't. Couldn't give you a line because of the way that it's composed. Like, the. The algorithm to the music is easier for me to memorize than delivery of words.
- [53:50]
A
That brings us back to the beginning, because teach a kid the Alphabet by saying it, or you sing it once and the kid remembers it. The Alphabet song helps you to memorize it immediately. It's because of the melody. But kids would not remember it if it just ABC.
- [54:10]
B
If we just 26 or whatever, 27 letters, you would know. But you're right, it's soon as you add a song to it. That's why it's so funny. You know, when I go to spell bananas, I always go to the Gwen Stefani. Because it's just the way that your brain, once you. Once you pat it or like you hear a name like Roxanne, you have to go, Roxanne. Like, it's just the way your brain latches on to sound. That's why they need to make a song goes to me. If you make a song about Camille, both me and your daughter get to benefit from it.
- [54:45]
A
So, you know, there is an artist, Camille Thomas. She's very famous, like cello player and Camille, a singer in France. She has great songs. And yeah, you and my daughter is Camille. Like Camille Claudel. Like, Claudel was such an incredible, beautiful artist. Like, she did the sculptures with Rodeo. It's a fantastic, powerful name.
- [55:15]
B
It is. It's a Camille conference. There's not enough of us. There's not enough of us. Well, Walter, in every single episode that I've done, I've asked as my last question, what is a brand to you?
- [55:31]
A
A brand to me is an entity that resonates deeper than just its name. It gives me an experience. And Apple has done that. Red Bull has done that. There are some out there and they're so much bigger than just the Alphabet.
- [55:56]
B
That was a great answer. That is awesome. How can people find you if they want to hear your music or learn more about you?
- [56:06]
A
Just I'm in Spotify. There's my name would come to LA when I'm there. I work a lot there or in Vienna. Come to the university, you know, there's one thing, if you come to Europe, my university, as I mentioned in the the interview, is getting more and more into the now and especially we have a female dean. She is really an amazing, powerful woman. She's open for the newness. And if you ever want to come to Vienna and speak at the university about your experiences and social media, because students, they have to, they need that. It's like imagine you're 24, you know so much about your job, but suddenly you have to knock on people's doors and say, yeah, I'm a good composer. If you do it like this, they close the door right away. If you could come to Vienna and give a masterclass on social media, especially in Austria, so far behind the whole branding, that could be amazing.
- [57:26]
B
If you could see if that would be possible. I am actually in fact in the Netherlands in December. That would be very easy for me to jump over.
- [57:42]
A
That's a one hour flight. If you maybe could be the first Wednesday in Vienna of December, I can arrange for this. We have those three two and a half, three hour seminars where we invite amazing people like you. I'll email you. But yeah, it's like, it would be incredible to have you there.
- [58:14]
B
I would be.
- [58:15]
A
The students would need that.
- [58:18]
B
I would be honored. And that's actually exactly when I would be there.
- [58:23]
A
And there is some budget for that. It's like. But I would let you then negotiate it to have a normal budget, but then a famous budget. So it would be so great if you come.
- [58:36]
B
I would love to come. I would love to come. That would be to me a lifetime achievement. And I would only come though if you would accompany me to the Rafique Standing Art Gallery.
- [58:49]
A
I'll bring you to that.
- [58:51]
B
I would love to see it in Austria. He's my favorite. Like, I would just love to see, not, not to see him in person. I'm saying the gallery, it's of a few.
- [59:00]
A
Is it worth. Yeah, yeah. We should go there. Okay, I'll let you know tomorrow, even the day after. I'm sure it's possible what the days are and then if they align, they'll be incredible.
- [59:16]
B
Yeah. And if not, I mean, I've got quite a lot of business in Europe and I'm there quite often. But it'd be too funny if the stars aligned on all of this. While I'm pretty much right there. December, oh my gosh. I mean, but I feel like Walter, this has been my life. That's why I'm like, to me it's all about. It's all about how amazing. And that's what I would say in the whole presentation of it is you're so. I find, especially people who are so good technically, they hold themselves back. They're not. They're really bad at marketing themselves. They're really bad at communicating. And if I can help them, and I can help them change their life, change their trajectory too, because it can't come down to luck. They have to, like, do something to stand out, that I'm on a quest to help as many great people as possible be better.
- [60:10]
A
To be open and being naive and far ahead. And that story, because that probably should not go on tape. The first time when I came to the United States, I was invited through a government art project which happened in Austria and was performed in New York. And I was like, as a kid, I wanted. I knew I will be in the States. And. And so finally, I'm 19 years old. I'm on this plane to JFK and get bought the ticket, the flight ticket. I'm landing jfk. I was so, like, excited, nervous, trembling and coming to the customs officer. And there's this. It's like huge colored person, like, with a big smile there. And I'm showing my passport, and he's looking at my passport and says, walter, where's your visa? And I didn't have a visa. And I really, like. I swear to God, I said to him, visa, America is the most open country in the world, and I'm from Austria. I don't need a visa. And he looked at me and he was pale and waved me in. And this is like, unheard of. So when I got my citizenship, my US Citizenship, at one point. Were you ever illegally in the States? It was a really hard one to like, to not lie about it, of course, and became American. It's like, I'm American now and I'm so proud of it. I'm happy. But those are the moments. It's like there was so many of those moments in my life. And you have to be open.
- [62:11]
B
No. And that's. That to me, is all life's about. You know, like, it's. It's about being open, but also putting yourself in a position to receive. And that's where I find a lot of really technical people is if they're constantly retreating and hiding and only doing the work, then they're holding themselves back for where the world is now. Because it's no. You like to even to. For your story, like, for you to be called to LA and to New York. Like, you're working world became this big because you opened yourself up to open opportunity. But you have to be open to it. And I think that. That because I work with a lot of like, really top, like surgeons, doctors, even like a bunch of like astronauts and engineers. They're very similar to top composers. Like how they think they're a black and white. Like, they're very rigid. The way that I can communicate and explain to them. They're like, they get it. Because it's not someone talking about the ego or vanity. It's talking about, like, just understanding how to position themselves to do more of what they're great at. Like, it's. I love this stuff.
- [63:17]
A
Yeah. And I think we're all open. And when I saw you on TikTok and how you talk about brands. Like, I really should talk with her. Two. Two weeks later we here.
- [63:31]
B
I'm so thankful you did. And like, I. I respect. So what. When I saw what you did, I'm like, oh, my. Like, what an honor. I would love to speak to someone who has put a lifetime in this. And because I love music, I love the angle that you came at. It's not. This isn't regular. This isn't ordinary. This is like in the. My. The book I'm writing is actually called the Art of the Brand. And that's why I would love to use that story that you gave because the. I'm actually finishing up the book as we speak. And it's so funny that we're having this conversation because the story that I put in is about me. And I think that I Actually, there's no case study that I've put in that's been from the podcast. Like, that's been from someone I spoke to. And I feel like all of this was meant to happen so that I can bring your art into the Art of the Brand because it's such a great different perspective on the. So if. If I have your blessing, I'll write it, but I'll allow you to approve it.
- [64:33]
A
Thank you.
- [64:34]
B
And I think that that would be really cool. And this was really meant to be. And I would. I would love to be able to come see you and speak. To speak to those students. That would be a lifetime of make it happen. I would love.
- [64:47]
A
Maybe it's in December. I hope it. It's in December. It'll be great. Just for intel, you know, the brand awareness of intel at the beginning of that year was 26%. Then they started the mnemonic. At the end it was 86 or 87%.
- [65:05]
B
I couldn't even tell you intel, but I can tell you the sound. Like, it's bing, bing, bing. Like, it's. It's literally the. It's. It's also so crazy how sound and smell are so triggered to, like, memories. Like, I remember when I think of the sound, I think of the early 2000s, you know, like, I think of my childhood. I think about, like. And it's so burned in. It's such an iconic moment for where you were in your life. Like, it's so cool. How sound does that.
- [65:41]
A
You. It's. Yeah. As we said, very powerful. Okay, I'll work on it. That would be great to bring you to university and show you the refik room here in Vienna. We'll make it work.
- [65:56]
B
I would love that. I did not realize that you were in Vienna, so thank you for doing this so late for me. I appreciate this so much, Walter, and I'm so glad to be connecting with. If there's. And it'd be an honor to have you in the book. I think that it would be a testament to your legacy and branding.
- [66:14]
A
Thank you so much.