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- [00:00]
Host 1
I don't want to be told what to do on my platform.
- [00:03]
Host 2
If Huda had said something similar about another disadvantaged community like blacks, would she still be in Sephora?
- [00:11]
Host 1
She is a top beauty brand, and that's why it's sad that Sephora isn't doing anything. They're handcuffed by her revenue. Sydney Sweeney launches a lingerie line because we know the girl is known for her eyes. But the way that she did it is it singles a larger trend of this, like litigation marketing.
- [00:28]
Host 2
Guerrilla marketing has always been something we love, like doing things that are not normal to get attention to yourself. So I commend her on that. I just. I just didn't think the piece was that interesting.
- [00:38]
Host 1
The Nike Skims collaboration. So they brought in new color waves this campaign, and the collection feels distinctly Nike Skims. Like, I feel like Nike Skims has an identity.
- [00:49]
Host 2
Why is Nike in it? Like, Skims could have. There was nothing about that piece of content that speaks to Nike for me, but it could have been 100% SKIMS curse campaign.
- [00:59]
Host 1
The Kendall Jenner and fanatics.
- [01:01]
Host 2
Like, I thought this campaign was intelligent, saying, I'm a powerful woman, you know what I mean? And if men fall so in loving me that they can't play sports after, that's their issue, not mine.
- [01:11]
Host 1
What do you think of the Pepsi Zero Sugar and the polar bear super bowl campaign?
- [01:15]
Host 2
If I was Coke, I would do a campaign and make that polar bear look like an influencer for sale.
- [01:21]
Host 1
The whole time I was watching the Pepsi commercial, all I was thinking about is Coca Cola. So a question that I had for you is, should X rebrand back to Twitter?
- [01:31]
Host 2
I think it's an indication that Twitter was great.
- [01:34]
Host 1
Can we just, like, make the halftime shows, like, great again? Can we bring back, like, the Spice Girls maybe?
- [01:38]
Host 2
Or, like, did you say make the halftime shows great again?
- [01:41]
Host 1
What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand. Say it again now. What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand. Welcome back to another episode of Art of the Brand. And this week we are coming from the podcast studio, but we will be shooting in a bunch of different locations over the coming weeks because we have some crazy work travel ahead of us.
- [02:03]
Host 2
Next week at the Super Bowl.
- [02:05]
Host 1
Yeah, next week. We're shooting live from the super bowl next week, and then the Sunday afterwards, we're going to be shooting from Paris and there's going to be a Rome leg in between there, but we're not going to be landing on a Sunday. So we'll be recording in Paris.
- [02:18]
Host 2
We received some incoming rounds this week from some of the people who follow our content online. And I want to give you you an opportunity to talk about what went on this week. And. And let's break down a little bit of controversy.
- [02:29]
Host 1
Yeah. So I was analyzing the Huda beauty brand. Not Huda Katan.
- [02:33]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [02:34]
Host 1
Who Huda beauty brand has generated hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars per year. So the paid ad strategy that goes direct to her website, not even her Sephora sales, which are insane. She's a top three beauty brand. She generates so much revenue for Sephora Aurora. But her paid ad strategy, which is direct to her website, is also doing over $75 million a year. And I did a breakdown of when you need organic to scale a community, but then organic has a ceiling. Like, you need to have paid on top of it and you need to have paid through tiers. Like, you have to understand how to build the entire funnel in order to take awareness to a conversion. And that's what the swipe through was on.
- [03:13]
Host 2
So you were trying to teach listeners and people who follow you and something that this business has done that was incredibly successful.
- [03:19]
Host 1
Yeah, it was a. It was a branding and a business insight. And that's what made it sticky is that people are like, how dare you basically promote someone that's bad. Like, why would you give somebody a platform? You're basically their intern celebrating a human for what she's done versus analyzing a business and branding strategy, which I do five days a week.
- [03:41]
Host 2
What I thought was helpful was. Or authentic to share, is that you wanted to pull it down. And we had kind of a conversation for a day or so because the hate was coming out and we were kind of thinking like, where do our values lie? Should we pull it down? Because what a founder is saying, even though it's good content for the followers and the business is relevant in the market.
- [03:59]
Host 1
I don't want to be told what to do on my platform. If I posted something on my platform, I will take the opportunity to talk about it. I want to learn. I want. When I say things that are wrong or can be improved or can be changed, I want the opportunity to have the dialogue and to discuss. But this is the business of brand. Like, this platform is where we break down what your business can learn from other businesses. And it's. It's complicated because I don't think people are wrong. I don't, I don't agree with the decision that she has made and why she would do that for her business. But Ultimately, what I think, what. What frustrates me more is that she's really had no ramifications from her. Her Western partners. So. Which is probably the direction that you're going to go with this. What do you think?
- [04:45]
Host 2
There's a lot of layers here. I think to unpack that could be useful for people listening is when I bought my cybertruck, I had people giving me the finger because of what the founder did. So from a branding perspective, you can have a business that's very good, but a founder who doesn't align with people's views. Right now, I don't think that's a fair equivalency, because Elon's sin was that he supported Trump, but he wasn't saying the ridiculous lies that Huda was saying. Right? Yeah, but the question is like, founders play a part. Not the question. The point is founders can play a part in a brand, especially as you're growing, once you get a dominant position, it's harder to knock them off. And they haven't been able to cancel Huda, even though she's saying things that are crazy. What?
- [05:23]
Host 1
And wrong.
- [05:24]
Host 2
Yeah. And what upsets me at kind of a macro level is, and I would ask the liberals to chime in, like, if Huda had said something similar about another disadvantaged community, like blacks, would she still be in Sephora?
- [05:39]
Host 1
No.
- [05:40]
Host 2
So the question is, why is there an unfair application of outrage amongst liberals or amongst the corporate world, which is esg, because why does it seem okay to be able to talk that way about one community in a completely hateful and dishonest manner, not just to the Jewish community, but also to the Iranians who are fighting for their freedoms, when she's supporting the Iranian regime. Like my post on Iran got millions of views pointing out that none of the people protesting for Palestine are protesting for Iran. And where this leads me to is online. What I want to share with people is outrage. If you have outrage, it's a sign you're a slave. Right. What we have to do is think. And what's going on online all the time is just outrage. And where we're calling for people to be canceled, whatever, we can have a discussion. You were having a discussion about a brand strategy of a very successful beauty brand, very successful brand that had relevance and utility to your listeners. Then the founder does something that people disagree with because it's off the charts assholic. And then people say, you're not allowed to say it. And that's where we kind of had this moral back and forth. It's like, no, this is relevant to the business of brand. And it doesn't mean that I support a retarded founder is saying, yeah, but.
- [06:55]
Host 1
I don't at all.
- [06:55]
Host 2
But we can't live in a world where you say, take it down. Right? I, in my strategic principles, I study my enemies, I study people I hate. I want to know more, you know.
- [07:05]
Host 1
Like, like, study, study the enemies more than the people who. Like, that's, that's Machiavelli.
- [07:10]
Host 2
Like, that is because by sharing that strategy, it allows somebody else to copy it so we can knock them out. If Sephora doesn't have the balls to kick her out of the shop, which I think they should, but I don't see the movement asking her to be kicked out. But I guarantee you, if she said the same thing about the black community in the US she would not be on the show or LGBTQ or any. But why is it okay to talk so disparagingly and, and dishonestly about the Jewish community?
- [07:34]
Host 1
It's not okay. Right, but you bring up a really good point. And, and, and that's why I agree with you that I want to have a platform where people disagree. And many of you who listen week over week, you'll disagree with different points. I want you to reach out and share that I want to learn, I want to grow, I want to improve. But when I, when my team is using these strategies and things that I'm seeing online and it's working for brands and they're getting ahead, that's my promise to you, is every week you're going to show up and you're going to be able to learn things and take away things that we're using and that are working. And she is a top beauty brand. And that's why it's sad that Sephora isn't doing anything. They're handcuffed by her revenue and they're not deciding to make a change. They've pulled her from some major campaigns, but she's in a dangerous position now because it's an Icarus story and she's not the reason alone for where the business has gone today. And we need to be able to analyze the strategies that the very smart people that are paid to work on that company are doing because her sales are through the roof. And if we only ignore her because she's an idiot, which we're now saying multiple times, she's an idiot.
- [08:47]
Host 2
I don't even know if she's an idiot. She could be a brilliant strategist, just like some people in Other armies who are enemies can be brilliant strategists. Like her strategy can be. My audience is predominantly anti Semitic. That policy. If you're untouchable, like if you live. If you don't live in the U.S. or the. Or the U.S. protesters aren't going to do anything about racism against these people. Right. That then we've actually emboldened that type of racism. And then a smart strategist could use it and not care what some people think.
- [09:19]
Host 1
There's obviously an intelligence to it in what you're saying.
- [09:22]
Host 2
Could be there could be probably just pure narcissists.
- [09:26]
Host 1
Yeah.
- [09:27]
Host 2
Ridiculous.
- [09:28]
Host 1
That's how I feel about it in the end. Is that, like, I feel that it's an Icarus story where she's gone too close to the sign. She's. She feels like because she built this platform, she can say whatever she wants because it's her. Her voice and her thoughts and her words. But I believe that you should be held to a higher standard. When you have that level of a platform and you have that level of followers to. You can believe what you want to believe. But like, what she said in the first canceling is. Is not historically accurate. That's where it becomes to me more than gray. Like, it's black or white at that point. Like, you need to be held to some standard.
- [10:02]
Host 2
If you were to say something equally as disparaging about the Prophet Muhammad, you would be canceled. People would come after your life. Yeah, right. So what's bothering me is there's not enough balance on the people who are outraged. But the point that I want to share with our listeners is what I've been seeing recently is people are losing their creativity and their own ability to think and build strategy because they're fixated on this outrage cycle. Every four days, you're outraged about something else, you put a pin on. Next week you got another pin on. And then you never really follow up with what happened. That tells us that we're in. There are architects in our society that are making us outraged about things to stop us from thinking, to stop us from being creative. When we're calm and we're not outraged, we can have a discussion with people we don't agree with. We can actually read about stuff. We can think about it. We can do purposeful, intelligent things. But if you're outraged, you're not thinking and you're not free. And I just want to share with the people who are upset about politics. We're not about politics. We're about the business, a brand. But try to step back from the outrage and try to think a little bit more before sending hate tweets.
- [11:06]
Host 1
Yeah, that was a great point. Let's move on to the siren launch. So Sydney Sweeney launches a lingerie line because we know the girl is known for her eyes, but the way that she did it is it singles a larger trend of this, like litigation marketing where they under. So the whole idea is that days before the launch, she is caught throwing bras on the Hollywood sign. Gives kind of energy of like 2007 Britney Spears and she gets like arrested and it's. Police are investigating and it's this whole headline on tmz and there's footage. And then cut to a few days later and siren is launched her new lingerie brand. What do you think about this rogue lawyer?
- [11:48]
Host 2
It's not new. Like, if you go back to the Beatles, having the concert in L. A on the rooftop and kind of getting shut down, right? Like, there's always PR creativity. You always need people who can push the boundaries. Because we're in an attention world like. Like we're in the business of getting attention. I. The lingerie, I think, is a smart follow up to where she is. It can make money. I found that the video was not that good. I thought it was kind of cute, but you know what I mean? Like when you're pretending to be risky, like, it just seemed like a little bit curated to me. I like this term litigation marketing that you came up with because you can get sued and if you can afford the lawsuit, right. So for something like that, the maximum award might be 10,000, 50,000 or 100,000. That's nothing compared to what your ad campaign could be. So you could make that. But I think what she's missing is there's a lot of unintended consequences. And when you go up there and you throw all that stuff up there, what if the Hollywood sign gets that done every two weeks now or every week now, and it destroys it? Or somebody goes to do it and a kid goes to put their bra up there and dies. You could get a really bad follow on consequence when you start playing with the law and playing with illegality. But guerrilla marketing has always been something we love, like doing things that are not normal to get attention to yourself. So I commend her on that. I just. I just didn't think the piece was that interesting.
- [13:07]
Host 1
I think the thing that's interesting is this idea of, like moving fast and taking risk. Like the launch, the brand name, all of it. I mean, it was. It was good But I think overall, the core theme that I want to leave you all with is this idea of understanding risk and understanding leaning in and owning a moment. So we had a client this past year who saw on a really huge celebrity in their back bathroom. They had her, they were using her product, their product organically. And they wanted to start. They basically wanted to start doing like reaction videos and using people to do reaction videos of this huge celebrity actually using their product. And the initial reaction was like, no, this person's legal team is going to be all over it. You're going to get sued and there's going to be a cost to this. But the kind of, the larger conversation that was happening is what is the cost of that potential lawsuit going to be? It's probably going to be an overall percentage of sales is what they're probably going to come for. And giving a percentage of sales of sales you made is better than not having any percentage to give because of sales you didn't get. And one thing that you taught me years ago that has always stayed with me, is that you only have maybe three asymmetric upsides in your life.
- [14:26]
Host 2
Three to five?
- [14:26]
Host 1
Yeah, three to five. Like three to five moments that will really greatly change your directory, get you onto a different vantage point where you're seeing the world from a different view. And when you don't act fast because you're so afraid of the potential outcome is when you stay beige and boring and you don't break through.
- [14:45]
Host 2
Beige and boring. I like it. I think you know the phrase we had bet big and big, right? Cause you're right. There's, there's, there's probably gonna be five times in your life where you have an asymmetric upside. And most people take risks on small thing. But I've said this to many businesses. Don't go bankrupt for $2 million. Go bankrupt trying to make 500 million bucks. Cause the result is the same at the end.
- [15:07]
Host 1
Yeah, bankrupt was bankrupt, right? Yeah, yeah.
- [15:09]
Host 2
If you've got an asymmetric opportunity and you look at it and you have a good team around you, sometimes it's worth going all in on that. Because the upside is 100x to you could go bankrupt next year anyhow if market changes. So. But don't be unnecessarily risky and have a good team with, you know, I.
- [15:25]
Host 1
Understand risk, like risk to a point, but for the, for how much? This one client we're talking about, like they sat on their hands, they talked about it, they went back and forth like they lost the Moment like, they. They lost it. And I see so many brands, they. They overstress. They have too many cooks in the kitchen. There's so many opinions. We're in such short news cycles that if you have a mom own it, you have to do it. And that's really the core takeaway from the story is, like, if the average person launching a brand, if you did this for the Hollywood sign, you wouldn't get the headline, right? So it's. The strategy is tied to her being a person of. Of influence and becoming this controversial figure that is like selling products, you know, that.
- [16:04]
Host 2
That example reminds me of. And it's. It's been in a few movies like Serendipity or whatever. But, you know, there may be five times in your life where you walk by somebody or you talk to somebody, and you get, like, instant crazy chemistry. Right. And if you don't kind of get up the nerve to talk to them or ask for their number, you have this small window with an asymmetric upside to meet somebody who speaks to your DNA, and they leave.
- [16:27]
Host 1
Yeah.
- [16:27]
Host 2
And you think about them for the rest of your life. Right. It's kind of an interesting.
- [16:31]
Host 1
Is that like, Sydney Sweeney in her lingerie for you?
- [16:34]
Host 2
No, I just think from her lingerie perspective, I think there was a different angle to take what she had done with American Eagle and with her brand into that space rather than be like a bunch of kids vandalizing the Hollywood sign, which isn't really tied to the sexuality that's behind her brand. Although there was an element of courage because she was also in the news because she told reporters, I'm not talking about politics. It's not my job to talk about politics. And people were criticizing her for not talking about politics, where I commend her for not talking about politics, because I don't care what actors say about politics. You're told what to say by somebody who writes a script. I don't care what you say about politics.
- [17:12]
Host 1
Let's move into the Nike Skims collaboration. So Skims.
- [17:16]
Host 2
Interesting. We're gonna have a bit of a discussion on this one, I think.
- [17:19]
Host 1
Yeah. Well, I really liked it. They brought in new color waves this campaign, and the collection feels distinctly Nike Skims. Like, I feel like Nike Skims has an identity. And the creative was extremely captivating. It was very visual. It was engaging. You got to see the product. Um, at first, I was a bit surprised that only Lisa was wearing the shoes, because it's a big part of this launch, is that they've designed their own Nike shoe, which is a big moment for them. But ultimately what I think is the most intelligent. And they were clearly inspired by Cat's Eye and the Gap campaign. Like, there's similarities between the two. Like how both of the beginnings start, because the Gap Cat's Eye campaign was so viral for getting sororities and kind of this, like, idea of second life for content of all these people, like, recreating the dance and it becoming, like, its own moment. So I think they did a really good job.
- [18:13]
Host 2
The video was good in that it made me look at the clothes. I thought it really showcased the clothes well, so that the dancing and the backdrop was an accent to the clothes. Like, I like the backdrop. The music was good. The classical music, you know, the kind of ballet slash dance side. Like, it made me pay attention because of how it was filmed. And in paying attention, I was looking at the clothes. I don't think it's necessarily a Gap ripoff because the song's not good enough to make me want to dance to it. Now, they can pay people to try and recreate the dance and do all that stuff, but it's not my Milkshake Brings all the Boys to the Yard or some of the other songs. But the question, I always left that at the end, and this is why, and you may know more, is why is Nike in it? Like Skims could have done? There was nothing about that piece of content that speaks to Nike for me, but it could have been 100% SKIMs.
- [19:06]
Host 1
I think that Skims could have done active work cooler than this collab with Nike. Like, Nike to me, is not only, like, not cool, but it's not doing things that are. That are interesting. In fact, you can tell that they're trying to hold on to relevance because they're doing so many collabs, which I do think takes away from Skims more. Like, there's Nike Aritzia and Nike Jacquemi, and, like, there's just Nike everything right now. And. But it's interesting because Nike owns the athleisure market. They do $48 billion a year. So it was a boss move for Skims to partner with Nike, because even though we can rip on Nike all day long, they still own the majority market share.
- [19:44]
Host 2
But no, but big players in the world of power, right? They collab with you to control you. Whereas maybe Skims has a plan to use Nike to get there. But I think Nike's market share was up for grabs, you know, with a good campaign. But often when the biggest power collabs with you, it's to control you.
- [20:04]
Host 1
To me, there's like, essence of that being there, because I don't like Skims does such a great job at a vibe, at a theme, at a feel, at an aesthetic, at like an experience of when you wear the clothing that. When I see the Nike clothing, it's cool to a young girl. But I think skims was cool to a much broader audience because it represented this premium lounge, active chill wear that really didn't exist in the market, like, as its own brand. Like, it really was a category king and how it's expanded into more cat, like, more line cereals. I think skims is a bright future and you're right, but I will.
- [20:41]
Host 2
To me, it seems like it's part of a play to go IPO or something like that historic term because when I watch that, I don't see any Nike. I see a lot of skims. Love the tones. I think the clothes look very cool. I think they could have done that totally by themselves and. But it takes a little bit more courage to do it. But I think doing this collab, maybe on their books, when they're doing their pitch decks, say now that we're partnered with Nike, we're going to be able to get access to this amount of the market segment. I just, I don't think it's good for the brand. I think it's probably good for the ipo.
- [21:11]
Host 1
What's complicated is that it did put skims into a different arena. Skims had some, like leggings and some like tighter, like T shirts and stuff that are not that far off. The Nike collab is it's that the Skims athleisure didn't have its own clear category. Like, there wasn't a clear click button that took you almost into a different. To a different part of the site. The type. Different type, like side of the brand. And for them to be moving faster and getting more market share and establishing themselves as a. As a seriously huge player. When brick and mortar and retail is in a very scary place, it does change the way that I think of skims. But to your point, I think the only area of where there's space for criticism is that Nike needs to let go because skims is so much cooler. What Nike's getting from it, they've already gotten from it.
- [22:00]
Host 2
I don't think it does a lot for skims brand. I think it does more for Nike's brand. I don't know why. Obviously I'm not in the boardroom behind it, but I think Skims could have. Could have taken that market share. Now that they've collabed with Nike, I just. I don't feel they have an athleisure brand. I feel they have a collab with Nike, you know, so I don't know where it goes.
- [22:20]
Host 1
No, it's an interesting point. Okay, we'll leave that there. I. The only thing I really wanted to talk about, though, on that campaign is this. This larger theme that we're going to get to, of, like, algorithm native storytelling in that what these creative concepts we're going to talk about today. Like, what they're doing is they're creating a second and a third and a fourth life online. It's creating a larger conversation. So that one ad creative. I've now seen a hundred videos of people, like, recreating it, talking about it because it was so visually esthetic. So the idea is focus more on entertainment, Focus more on making a short video that's like a TV show. Like, it was totally captivating and to the point. Like, I never really got to the end, but I watched the video so many times because there were so many things happening throughout it. And I've loved watching. And the split screen of one person doing the dance to there being like 15 on the screens, like, the kind of the experience. And it's something that is, like, so nice to be able to keep watching. It's kind of like a brain rot. Like, I can just keep scrolling through it and see it. I love it.
- [23:29]
Host 2
One thing I was watching a lot is I kind of do the Dougie song with the Enya remix. Like, I found that captivating, but there was no brand behind that or on top of it. And it was. It was very. It was a very viral.
- [23:40]
Host 1
Well, you're seeing this with even, like Taylor Swift and Ophelia. When you look at the songs that have been breaking out and have. And even the cat's eye gap, like, it's. It becomes its own second life of people wanting to recreate the moment. Like, that's the way to really sell, is for people to not feel like they're being sold to.
- [23:59]
Host 2
But that's what I think the Nike skims is. Most of the content that goes viral is the one that goes viral because they made something authentically good. Not when you're just kind of copying it, you know what I mean? And trying to recreate it. So there's a fine line between trying to be authentic and viral and just making great. Like, people are hungry to be entertained. We're not getting it from Netflix that much anymore. We're not getting it from Hollywood. People are hungry for real entertainment. So if you're taking shortcuts to get views, that's not real entertainment. You can make it entertaining with a lot of money. But I think for most of our, our listeners in the business, follow us, you know, try to entertain and educate in a real way and you'll. And you'll be successful.
- [24:38]
Host 1
Yeah, and totally. So one of the things that I was studying so I watched a segment on heated rivalry, like I actually watched a part of the show and was interesting. I can understand why the show has gone so viral with such a low budget, is that they designed the entire show for algorithm made of storytelling. So like everything is very short, like micro moments, almost that idea of like the second screen where because these clips have to live online, they're packing so much emotion into such tight shots and small moments in windows. So that if you saw the clips online, you know exactly what happened in the show, but enough that brings you to go and watch it, which is what has made the show such a sensation.
- [25:23]
Host 2
It's interesting because the story arc that used to be so mandatory for a good novel, for a good screenplay, for a good movie, you know, that still exists, but it's almost like there's a new story arc for short term, short form content that is becoming more popular and more profitable because I'm seeing even in preparing for the podcast and some of the super bowl as we're talking about, it's like the celebrities are moving to commercials because there's more money in this kind of short form branding ecosphere than there is in the movies.
- [25:55]
Host 1
Now that even leads to the next one. Like when you talk about the curse campaign, the Kendall Jenner fanatics, like what's interesting is even that campaign which speaks to like a larger theme, taps into the zeitgeist, brings in culture. Like there's context and like deeper understanding to what makes that creative good. But they also created additional creatives around that creative so that it would have this bigger moment. Right. So it's like becoming, to your point when you're saying obviously that's where the money is because the, you know, betting has a ton of money and a lot of these super bowl commercials have a ton of money. But outside of that, they're also becoming extremely relevant cultural moments and they have for a long time. I'm not saying commercials haven't been, but it's interesting how they're dovetailing into socials and creating these different moments and different Vignettes and different reactions that is proliferating in a. In a way that feels more 4D.
- [26:52]
Host 2
What do you mean by 4D?
- [26:54]
Host 1
It's interesting because we would used to watch a commercial, and the commercial would be good, and then maybe we'd go home in the office and we would, like, talk about it. Right? Like, that would be kind of it. Now, these commercials that are good, they become, like, moments. Like, for example, like the Kendall Jenner one. They did, like, a whole billboard campaign that says, like, cursed with a K question mark.
- [27:14]
Host 2
That's a moment.
- [27:15]
Host 1
They're hyping it up so they had a date underneath it for, like, when the creative was going to be launched. And then there was all these people online that were probably paid to talk about the creative and, like, react to it. And then there was people that were reacting to the reaction of, like, this is so genius. So it's. They're creating kind of these larger moments around an investment in a creative campaign for earned media value.
- [27:38]
Host 2
I don't think it's creating moments. I think there used to be moments like, I'd like to teach the world to sing or. Or certain areas. And I think modern agencies and creative are trying to. To reclaim some moments by regurgitating what's done in the past. But I'm not really seeing moments being created. I'm. I'm just seeing. And that's why I asked you about the D. Because it's dimensional, but I think everything is less deep in general. But Kendall's. What I want to talk about. Kendall's curse thing is, I love that the phrase that Katya came up with, the narrative reclaim. Re. Narrative reclamation. You know, she kind of reclaiming the narrative. She kept this thing that seemed negative and owned it. And I love. And I want people to. I want people to not be the victim always, like, wherever you're going, go there with courage and boldness. And if you get something that seems negative, just take. Reclaim the narrative, own it. I think she did that beautifully with this particular campaign. I thought this campaign was intelligent saying, I am a powerful woman. You know what I mean? And if men fall so in love with me that they can't play sports after, that's their issue, not mine.
- [28:44]
Host 1
I want to get back to what you said. But when I was saying, like, the moment she went, like the day after it went live on Jimmy Fallon, he went. She went on the day after on Jimmy Fallon. And the whole thing was like, her talking about, you know, that campaign, and, like, you can tell that they had placed her on the show as a PR piece for the creative. And then on the show she like randomly air quotes FaceTimes Tom Brady to ask Tom Brady who's gonna win the super bowl because she's betting with fanatics. And if she wins, it goes to charity and if fanatics wins, it goes to charity.
- [29:20]
Host 2
And my brilliant marketing at every level, like it's. It's like it's. It's a coordinated synchronized campaign to hit. That's four dimensional. I think because you're hitting that power.
- [29:31]
Host 1
Point that I forgot.
- [29:31]
Host 2
You're hitting many dimensions of the space. Like.
- [29:34]
Host 1
But you know why though? Because when you said I'd like to teach the world sing like that iconic Coke commercial, it was iconic but it was repeated. Right. So like every time, every Sunday night when you'd go home, you'd probably see it twice or three times. And if you watch TV throughout the week, you would see it multiple.
- [29:52]
Host 2
But I think the first time people saw hit everybody like we're still talking about it half a century.
- [29:57]
Host 1
But my point is if that fanatics ad got 7 million views, it's a lot of 7 million views one time.
- [30:05]
Host 2
Yeah. Like it just disappears.
- [30:07]
Host 1
It go like. And that's why when I say that the four dimensional angle is interesting is that the old TD programming is that you would purchase multiple buy spots with that investment. Now you don't really have that because you can't.
- [30:20]
Host 2
Because there's not a controlled element of. Of advertising spots.
- [30:23]
Host 1
Yeah.
- [30:24]
Host 2
That you can buy with. Basically. Now you're constantly fighting for attention.
- [30:27]
Host 1
And that's why I thought it was interesting is that. And then there was like these crazy crumbs of like she's like fake flirt texting online with Devin Booker, which is like one of her ex boyfriends. That that is a part of this curse with a K. And there's all this. It's another topic I want to talk about this like crumb based marketing where the new strategy is to like drop all these crumbs that allow people to create the dots. Yeah.
- [30:52]
Host 2
Follow you into the Hansel and Gretels, whatever that.
- [30:57]
Host 1
So that the idea is that you knew what was coming. Like you're this intelligent, special person that can be like aha. Like so for one example, the whole like there was a moment on the Internet a week ago where Alex Earle and Tom Brady were seen together and there was all these speculations of like are they dating? And they're probably gonna have a Super bowl commercial together. Like it's probably a crumb for them having this commercial. Together and the same thing for the Wuthering Heights. Right now it's like the movie that's. There's the Oscars are coming up and it's Elordi, Jacob Elordi and Margot Robbie. And now you're just seeing all this stuff of. She just talked about like how Jacob sent her roses and like pop, apologies. Another podcast was like she's literally married like this. The PR for the movie is not even that she's like being bad like cheating on her husband. It's that she's, they're, they're just manifesting that this love that's in the movie, there's a potential for it in real life without T. You know what I'm saying? Like they're doing all these, this crumb based stuff.
- [31:59]
Host 2
I like some, the guys that work within psychological operations have moved into some of these campaigns because it's actually a very well done manipulation of reality. Like of artificial reality.
- [32:12]
Host 1
Yes, that's it. You nailed it. Artificial reality.
- [32:14]
Host 2
To make people think that they're actually making these conclusions because of their own intelligence. But they're really. When you say bread comes, they're being led down a path to say okay, now you're going to, now you're going to think this is happening. Now you're going to worry about this. Now you're going to see this and so you're going to pay attention to our movie or our ad.
- [32:32]
Host 1
Well, another one was they like took this still. So I guess one of the outfits in the, in the movie is like a latex version of like a dress from that time period and people are like blowing up like the whole, the whole point is like they're taking these moments and they're putting them out online to. It's the, it's whole Marty supreme idea. My question is just like where does this go? Like if the expectation for every commercial and every movie is to have so much hype and awareness online, what does this look like three years from now? Like is it Macy Day parades of like huge parades going down the street talking about the movies.
- [33:08]
Host 2
There's cycles of kind of sacrilegious behavior that can go on in advertising and marketing where there's more of a, an appetite for it and then you'll see a regress to traditional, more beautiful, more beautiful things. But what it tells our listeners is anybody creative is king and context is king. Right? But good creative doesn't exist in most places. It is a rare art to know how to do creative in a good way. And most people are just Phony and creative.
- [33:39]
Host 1
You're right. You're right. Well, talking about phoning and creative, what do you think of the Pepsi Zero sugar and the polar bear super bowl campaign?
- [33:48]
Host 2
A polar bear is not intellectual property. So if you tie your brand to the sun, you can't stop somebody from using a picture of the sun. Right? That animated polar bear was, was a strong icon of Coke. So what Pepsi did, which was interesting, which is use the polar bear. And not that it's not that intelligent really, but the polar bear chose Pepsi, right? And then a blind taste test in a blind taste test, right? And so people are like, oh, should they do this? The cola wars are starting. And first of all, war is good for business, whether you like it. So the cola war is resurfacing is great. But what I think Pepsi has done, it goes to some of the things I've been talking about, is given Coke a beautiful opportunity. Because what I would do as a campaign, and I'm giving this for free, and I know you'll get angry at me, if I was Coke, I would do a campaign and make that polar bear look like an influencer for sale. Right? Because, because that's what's going on in the world is, you know, endorsements, everything, like, it's all fake. And so I would just do a commercial of actual real polar bears, like cool polar bears who haven't sold himself out. And I would make that polar bear into this shallow influencer that Pepsi people brought in and put makeup on and did the whole. Like, I would just, I would actually make it look like Pepsi gave the polar bear the right answer. Because no, it's not real. It's an animated polar bear. Like you can, you know, the polar bear didn't actually choose Pepsi.
- [35:08]
Host 1
Thank you so much.
- [35:10]
Host 2
We can say as Coke, if you want to hire us. I could do a campaign that says showing Pepsi executives gaming the system so the polar bear knew which one to pick and he was just a for sale influencer. And then the cool polar bears over here just enjoying life with a real Coke. That campaign is worth millions.
- [35:26]
Host 1
Okay, thank you though for your genius. You know what? Like, the whole time I was watching the Pepsi commercial, all I was thinking about is Coca Cola.
- [35:34]
Host 2
Ah, interesting. Yeah, yeah.
- [35:35]
Host 1
And I forgot, as clever as they think they were smart. I. All I was thinking is, that's the Coca Cola bear. Obviously the Coca Cola bear would like Coke. This is AI. Like, that's all, like, that was all I was thinking. And what was interesting about it is it didn't make me Want Pepsi more. It actually made me want to support Coke.
- [35:57]
Host 2
Nostalgia. Make nostalgia for Coke.
- [35:58]
Host 1
For Coke.
- [35:59]
Host 2
But I just think Coke should lean into it because, like, sadly, war is good for business and people pay attention. They should just go at each other with campaigns.
- [36:06]
Host 1
But, like, the. The. The idea of it, a war is so smart. But I feel like my response to the. The alternative campaign would be something like, you don't have anything iconic for us.
- [36:17]
Host 2
To leverage, like a sign.
- [36:20]
Host 1
No, like, they're just. They have a slew of like, let's. You know, should we bring back the brutal Kendall Jenner Pepsi campaign? Like, oh, yeah, you know, let's wait. Like, it's just like, it's. That would be like, almost like my.
- [36:30]
Host 2
It's very interesting.
- [36:31]
Host 1
My mean girl response of like, you've got nothing iconic that we can take.
- [36:35]
Host 2
Yeah. So you could show a boardroom of Coke executives. What are. What are we going to attack if I. Pepsi. That's iconic. And you could just kind of be laughing at all the candle.
- [36:42]
Host 1
Oh, yeah. Really badly done. You know, like, the. The. Like, I just. I feel like that would be.
- [36:48]
Host 2
Probably get a real human who is part of it as opposed to an animation. Yeah. Yeah. That's fascinating. I wish somebody bring us in the boardroom for that. We're talking about Tyra for a little bit. Or are we passing on, I don't know.
- [36:59]
Host 1
Like, it's fake controversy.
- [37:01]
Host 2
It's performance outrage.
- [37:02]
Host 1
It's. Well, I mean, we can talk about that for a hot second. So, like, there's. I'm sure you guys have seen it online. Like, there's this. There's the. What was the show called?
- [37:11]
Host 2
America's Top Model.
- [37:12]
Host 1
America's Top Model. So America's Top Model is. There's, like, a spicy documentary coming out for, like, how horrible they were and how accepted that was during that time. And she's now coming forward, as in the other cast members. It's kind of like retribution of how bad it was. And there's like, fake clothes clips online that, like, she's gonna get hammered and this is gonna be bad. And I'm like, she's narrating the documentary. Like, this is performative marketing. This is fake. Like, this isn't. Like, she got busted for saying stupid in an interview last week. It was literally set up to be an inflammatory documentary.
- [37:48]
Host 2
It's a shame because it might be the only way for her to be relevant is to go back and attack her former self where she actually did something that was empowering. She went on tv, she owned the moment. She had high standards. She didn't apologize for it. And people knew what it took to get into that industry. So to me, what she did back then was strong. Right. What she's doing now is incredibly weak. And it's just performative outrage and the people kind of crying, oh, I wanted to be a model, but that was so hard. I'm like, well, what did you think being a model was? They made me be skinny. What did you think you had to do? Like, you know, but it's. Our society has devolved into this cesspool of like, oh, I've been treated so badly. And it's actually trying to make money because people want to see people at their deep psychology, want to see people embarrassed and brought down who are big. And so what Tyra Banks is doing is she's just selling herself so that she can appear to be brought down because it makes people feel good about themselves who could never be models.
- [38:45]
Host 1
So a question that I had for you is, should X rebrand back to Twitter? We've gone back and forth internally, and what was interesting is the last speaking engagement I was at the day after Harvard, somebody asked me a question, and they said X. And they corrected themselves to let the entire room know that it was formerly Twitter. Like, they're still correcting X as formerly Twitter. And at this point, like, this is. This rebrand has now happened years ago. Is that an indication that the name is bad?
- [39:17]
Host 2
I think it's an indication that Twitter was great. Right. And there's, like, a zeitgeist issue in it in that Elon took a huge risk to buy that completely failing company. And if anybody's interested in business and not just political outrage, analyze what happened. He fired 80% of the people, and the company ran better in three months. That's what we need to do to a lot of government, a lot of these other institutions that are just constantly complaining. So Elon has a brand. He loves X. He's got SpaceX. I think he might name kid X. Like, he likes.
- [39:49]
Host 1
Oh, he's got a kid named X, right? Yeah.
- [39:51]
Host 2
He likes the symbol X. The problem is X isn't a verb. You know what I mean? You can't like X somebody, right? Like, that's breaking up with them. Twitter was a great.
- [39:59]
Host 1
Because you could tweet.
- [40:00]
Host 2
Because you could tweet. So there was a verb to it that caught on. Like. And that was brilliant branding by Dorsey. Right? And so everybody to this day still says, I'm going to post on X Twitter. You know, everybody is always saying, I'm.
- [40:12]
Host 1
Going to send a tweet. I'm going to tweet.
- [40:14]
Host 2
Yeah. Like, and what do you say on X?
- [40:15]
Host 1
I'm going to send out a note.
- [40:18]
Host 2
Yeah, you can't.
- [40:19]
Host 1
Like, there's no. It didn't give you the language that went with like. So for Instagram, I'm going to post.
- [40:23]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [40:24]
Host 1
You know, like, so it on TikTok I'm going to post but like on X because it's less of like a thing I'm putting out there. I'm putting. I'm like more almost texting someone because it's so text based.
- [40:36]
Host 2
That was the secret sauce of Twitter is this kind of tweet. Right. It wasn't as. As heavy of a task and you can have these dialogues. Like if I was sitting down with Elon, I'd probably say the ultimate act of power is to say it's now ready to be Twitter again. Right. And just allow the language to flow nicely. But Twitter just doesn't sound as strong. X is now the most popular news source in the world, whether you like it or not. Like the most people in the world are going there for news right now.
- [41:04]
Host 1
I just can't. I don't get it. Like whenever I open it I'm like, goodbye. Like, I gotta get out. Like, it just.
- [41:11]
Host 2
The algorithm takes too long. Like. But that's actually why some people like the algorithm, I find in a way doesn't. It's not as enjoyable as the other platforms in some ways, but. And I don't find the search mechanism. Mechanism is as good. Like what they should buy ground news. I don't know if you've heard of ground news, but it's this very. It's this growing platform that for every news story gives you angles of it from one side of the spectrum, another side of the spectrum, how much balance there is. Like, it really gives you, like if you're a critical thinker and we should be sponsored by ground news, but we're not. But I would go there if you want to see how a story is being treated in the media. If you go there, you'll see all of the angles from the different areas and where they lean and how they're covering it.
- [41:52]
Host 1
Fascinating.
- [41:53]
Host 2
So you could come up to it. And I think that's where X should go as opposed to this tweet algorithm in the past.
- [41:58]
Host 1
But that's super fascinating. I wanted to take a moment to talk about our predictions for the super bowl ads and then of the ads we saw which ones we liked the best.
- [42:10]
Host 2
And why, as we go into the Super Bowl, I think the NAR people love storytelling, and it's a great Super Bowl. When you look at the quarterback story, so you have a brand new one, right. Who's kind of replaced Tom Brady in the Patriots, and they've got there without him. There's a great story there. I think he's a rookie. And then you have the Seahawks quarterback who's been a journeyman for decades, never made it was kind of washed up. And this is the chance. So you really have this. You have two quarterbacks who. Who kind of deserve to be heroes. And it's just. It's just the beautiful kind of American conflict in sports that people love from a branding perspective. So the super bowl should be really interesting.
- [42:54]
Host 1
I meant the ads.
- [42:55]
Host 2
I know the ads. I just thought that was, you know, story matters.
- [42:58]
Host 1
Story.
- [42:59]
Host 2
You can tell a story about each quarterback.
- [43:01]
Host 1
What do you think about. Do you know anything about the halftime.
- [43:03]
Host 2
Show with the bad bunny? The guy who lives in Puerto Rico and says he hates the U.S. oh, yeah.
- [43:09]
Host 1
Does he?
- [43:09]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [43:10]
Host 1
Is that a whole thing?
- [43:11]
Host 2
I don't know why. Yeah. I don't know why he was necessarily chosen. You know, it's.
- [43:15]
Host 1
He's like the number one Latin American singer in the world or something crazy like that. Like, he's got a huge following for London. Like, people go nuts for him. But I don't really know. Like, I know he was dating Kendall Jenner for a hot minute, but I just. Can we just, like, make the halftime shows, like, great again? Can we bring back, like, the Spice Girls maybe? Or like.
- [43:34]
Host 2
Did you say make the hack drive shows great again?
- [43:36]
Host 1
Yeah. And bring back, like, I think. Okay, not gonna lie. I use that tagline all the time. Like, I think everything could be made great again. Like, Trump understands great microscripts.
- [43:47]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [43:47]
Host 1
You know, like, I feel like the last few Super Bowls were like artistic representations of self than like full blown entertainment. Like, I like when Snoop Dogg comes out and then like Flow Rider and ludicrous comes and then we got like, Madonna and then we like Spice Girls pop out of a cannon. Like, that's my kind of Super Bowl.
- [44:06]
Host 2
Yeah. I just, I don't find the super bowl actually reflects the viewers in many case. Like, you know, like, I'd like to see a combination of. Of the genres because all. Everybody likes. That's what I love about, you know, Latinos.
- [44:18]
Host 1
Yeah.
- [44:19]
Host 2
Black community.
- [44:20]
Host 1
Yeah.
- [44:20]
Host 2
You know, the country community.
- [44:21]
Host 1
Like Missy Elliott with country music. And then we bring.
- [44:24]
Host 2
But let's. One more time, please. Let's not butcher. The national anthem, hands down. You guys, tell me if I'm wrong. Best national anthem at a Super bowl ever is Stapleton.
- [44:34]
Host 1
Oh, yeah. That just still gives me goosebumps to think about.
- [44:37]
Host 2
Like, a national anthem is not something to be perverted into a fucking sideshow. Right. The national anthem is something that is supposed to evoke pride in your nation.
- [44:46]
Host 1
That's the core point of the anthem. It's an anthem.
- [44:50]
Host 2
Right?
- [44:50]
Host 1
Right. Everyone. It, like, makes people feel. They set up, they sing, they like.
- [44:54]
Host 2
And it represents centuries of history of the country in a way. Like, it's not. But you know, people.
- [44:58]
Host 1
It's a great anthem.
- [44:59]
Host 2
It's an amazing.
- [45:00]
Host 1
An amazing anthem.
- [45:01]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [45:01]
Host 1
Okay, let's talk about those ads. So what I thought was interesting is the Pringles, they've launched, like, teaser ads with Sabrina Carpenter before the Super Bowl. Again, it's like that whole crumbs thing. Like, we know she's going to be in one and we're only seeing, like, certain vignettes so that it drives hype. And it's bringing younger eyeballs to the super bowl too, which is interesting.
- [45:20]
Host 2
Honestly, I think more money is being paid on super bowl ads than in some Hollywood production week. Oh, yeah. That's where entertainment money is going.
- [45:28]
Host 1
I loved the Andy Cohen one. The Meal Diamond.
- [45:31]
Host 2
Yeah, I thought it was okay. But honestly, like, I feel like for those of you haven't watched the movie Idiocracy, it's like we're moving in that direction where entertainment is now being made into 30 and 60 second scripts because we have become comfortably dumb.
- [45:44]
Host 1
It's true.
- [45:45]
Host 2
And we don't want to actually invest in a storyline. And so part of me says, yeah, that Andy Samberg thing was funny. He's a funny guy. But I also kind of feel like the celebrities are kind of going from making Francis Ford Coppola type movies where there was real character development to putting a banana on their head and dancing around. Like, I thought the band.
- [46:07]
Host 1
I'm surprised that you said that. I thought that Ben Stiller, Benson Boone one was great because not only is it entertaining, but it speaks to a real pain point in Instacart. And what they're saying is, like, you pick your own bananas and carrots because what sucks when you order Instacart, Which I do three times a week because I hate going to the grocery store. I hate when I order produce. And they intentionally picked the worst apple in the pile. Like, that's the worst part of Instacart is that when you need to buy like produce. They pick the worst ones.
- [46:37]
Host 2
I don't think they pick the worst ones. I think they don't care. The same way if they were buying their own.
- [46:40]
Host 1
I want you to care. I'm. I'm paying you a tip.
- [46:42]
Host 2
That's where everybody should save the tip. You know how they get the tip at the beginning?
- [46:47]
Host 1
Yeah.
- [46:47]
Host 2
You say, no, I'm only going to tip at the end after I look at my produce. But was it. Was it. So that was that Instagram singing and pick your bananas.
- [46:53]
Host 1
Yes, the whole commercial.
- [46:55]
Host 2
But how can you pick your bananas?
- [46:56]
Host 1
I guess, I mean, I'm sure the us got it first, Philip. I'm sure they have like, they FaceTime you when they're at the banana stand.
- [47:02]
Host 2
Well, that's kind of annoying. I don't want to be on FaceTime. I did this if I didn't have the shot.
- [47:06]
Host 1
I don't care about selecting my bananas over FaceTime with my Instacart shopper. I care about taking that additional hour when I'm at the office. Listen, just go to the grocery store.
- [47:18]
Host 2
This is another dumb.
- [47:19]
Host 1
Stand in line.
- [47:20]
Host 2
This is another dumb thing. Just pick good bananas. I don't want to. I don't want to get a FaceTime while you're at the bananas. Like, like from a.
- [47:27]
Host 1
Maybe like a training and SOP protocol. So like the instacart drivers, they go. Or pickers, they go through like so. But then there's gonna be this. The problem is, is that we are a part of. The solution is because we don't go in store, they're able to give us inventory that they're not able to get from the in store shoppers.
- [47:44]
Host 2
Yeah, but the person going in is an in store shopper. They're walking around with a cart picking the stuff up.
- [47:49]
Host 1
I understand, but I. I feel like I just cracked something.
- [47:54]
Host 2
You know, it's a shame that. Go ahead.
- [47:57]
Host 1
They weren't. They knew that we weren't going into the store, so they've been giving us the shitty produce that nobody wanted to buy.
- [48:02]
Host 2
It doesn't make me want to go back to the store. Store. But it's a shame that the instacart shoppers can't have a brand where they're like, I picked the best produce.
- [48:09]
Host 1
Could you imagine? I'd pay extra for that guy?
- [48:11]
Host 2
Oh, God, I would. 100%.
- [48:12]
Host 1
I know.
- [48:13]
Host 2
Imagine that's the rating. So whenever you get bad produce, you should just leave it. Bad produce. You didn't do a good job. Learn. Learn how to feel up a watermelon.
- [48:21]
Host 1
So that would be the difference. If they hired us, that would have.
- [48:24]
Host 2
Been the content I would have done.
- [48:25]
Host 1
We would be showing how we're training the instacart pickers to knock the right watermelons. Yeah, you're. You're right. You're right.
- [48:32]
Host 2
I'm not a legacy. I wouldn't say it was fun production value, but it's like 30 seconds of people. Like everything that we're doing in production that's entertaining is rooted in decades old things. Like, that's a 70s take on, on rock bands.
- [48:48]
Host 1
Yeah. But it's also.
- [48:49]
Host 2
We're not making things that are interesting today.
- [48:52]
Host 1
But that's also Benson Boone's style. Right. So he's kind of reviving this. Like he's got an Abid jumpsuit on, but it, it's more, it's like more the. It's kind of like that David Bowie kind of energy, you know, like, I don't know, Ziggy Stardust that, you know, like, he's, he's doing backflips. He's got, like, he's got a solid range. He can go high, like, and he kind of dabbles into that like androgynous kind of feel like it's that old school rock star vibe. And he's like, Benson Moon's bringing it back. He's a cool kid. I like.
- [49:26]
Host 2
Oh, the 70s was the best music of all time.
- [49:28]
Host 1
Oh yeah, totally.
- [49:30]
Host 2
Why don't we make some good music?
- [49:31]
Host 1
And do you know what he sings?
- [49:34]
Host 2
Oh yeah. Does he get paid to do that?
- [49:36]
Host 1
Yeah.
- [49:37]
Host 2
Yeah. We should probably leave it that way.
- [49:38]
Host 1
Hi. We're posting that right now, guys. The aloe one. I hope you guys see it by the time you listen to this this week. Well, that. Do you have anything else you want to wrap everyone up with?
- [49:46]
Host 2
One thing you can take away from us is we're going to stay true to values. We're going to be good to people and we're not going to be silenced. But we're also sensitive to the world is hard and there is unfairness out there. And we're going to do our best to be, to be true and authentic human.
- [50:00]
Host 1
Oh, yeah. I mean, I really believe in being a good person, but I think also being a good person is also navigating through time and space and figuring things out as they roll with you.
- [50:10]
Host 2
You know how you're. I always said Martin Luther King's quote, you don't measure the character of a man by how they act when times are good. You. You, you measure their character by how they act. When times are bad and when a. When a topic is emotional to you, that's when you can see how committed you are to dialogue, freedom of speech and all that. Because it's easy to. It's easy to cancel other people, except when it comes to your views.
- [50:33]
Host 1
So true.
- [50:34]
Host 2
Till next week. Wish us luck on our travel adventures. It's exhausting, but we're gonna keep coming to you with the Real deal.
- [50:39]
Host 1
I'm actually excited for next week's recording because we are coming to you right after Gary Vee's super bowl party. Like, we're leaving that party to record. We're leaving early to record the episode in San Francisco. So it should be a good episode because we also are going to be coming at that point off of, like, five pretty big brand activations at the super bowl. So we'll be inspired with some good shit. See you next week, everybody.
- [51:04]
Host 2
Good pod.
- [51:05]
Host 1
Goodbye.
- [51:05]
Host 2
The world's number one branding podcast. Subscribe, Follow. And like, goodbye.