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- [00:00]
A
But what that American Eagle campaign did, whether you agree with it or not, is when somebody sees somebody wearing an American Eagle pair of jeans, you're kind of signaling, I have good jeans. Like, whether or not they do or not, like, it changes the way you can perceive somebody in it. That's the power of branding. When you get a message out there in that way, guys, she's hot.
- [00:17]
B
Sex sells. This is not new. We need to get back to what the brands that want to make money and don't want to be losing. $68 million, which is what American Eagle lost in its first quarter. This is the death of. Of Adam Sandler.
- [00:31]
A
Happy Gilmore 2 sucks, and I've never been so disappointed, other than maybe Roadhouse 2 with the absolute garbage quality of that movie.
- [00:41]
B
It has nothing to do with the brand. And it's the same line of, like, them launching these bras with, like, the fake nipple piercings or the fake, like, nipples where it looks like fake boobs.
- [00:50]
A
I don't think it's the same. The reason why they came out with the garters was to make you look more sexually attractive. If somebody thinks it does, they're moving into an area, but they're. They're breaking their brand promise because it doesn't work.
- [01:01]
B
Never post it again. And she has been booked as the lead in the Viennese Opera.
- [01:07]
A
And the people who do that are often zero zeros. Follow the art of the brand.
- [01:11]
B
So more people on YouTube, like, even if you don't use YouTube, just, like, help us out, share it.
- [01:15]
A
We need more people to get it. We're putting our necks out there doing good content.
- [01:19]
B
What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand Say it again now. What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good. So we're back after a really cool week in Austria. For those who follow on socials, we were working with the University de Musik in Vienna, Austria, teaching the really, the best classical musicians from all over the world. The importance of a personal brand. And it was a really, really cool experience that I look forward to talking about on this podcast. Because even if you're not a classical musician, there is so much you can learn from extreme specialists.
- [01:58]
A
Classical music is just. It's a world people should get familiar with. Austria is a very underrated place to visit in terms of geography, architecture. It was one of my favorite trips ever. And it was so fun to work and coach with people who are the best at what they do and are so humble.
- [02:16]
B
Yeah.
- [02:17]
A
And it was just. It was Beautiful. To be able to help them get a pathway to go somewhere you can see the joy we brought to their lives. I loved it.
- [02:23]
B
And anthropologically it was really complicated for me to kind of reconcile understanding the worldview, like their point of view, perspective from how they got into it, how they were brought up. It was interesting cause one of the first nights we were there, you had booked a really special private concert at this. It's called Mozart's house and it's where Mozart lived for a portion of his life. And it's a very small room. There was maybe no more than 25 people in the room. And the acoustics was just unbelievable. And it was the night before I was set to start teaching and I had this really complicated moment of like just hearing the like number of hours that these artists put into playing this music and like just the obsession on not only like degree of the stroke on their instrument, but also just the length that like just so much time going into it and how complicated it was. Comparing that to the transientness of social media, like it was a really complicated. Like that was part one complicated.
- [03:34]
A
What you experience when you hear it live is you're actually in a place where people really do the work.
- [03:39]
B
Yeah, right.
- [03:40]
A
As opposed to in the kind of social media world, the marketing, the branding world. It's like, what's a shortcut? Can I find a trend? Can I do this? Can I just repackage it? Can I buy from China? You know what I mean? Like it's all like a short term world. And then. And we deal with that in some perspective, we're trying to get people to have long term strategy. But then when you go and you sit in that room and it's so intimate, you can feel viscerally when the work has been done. Because when they started the music I almost started crying. Same like just because of the sheer beauty of it. And I was like, what the hell's going on with me? But you can't fake doing the reps and doing the work like it was. I'm getting goosebumps remembering it right now.
- [04:16]
B
But it's so complicated. Cause we live in such a social first world where we're like, we're impressed by, by the ability to spend money, like for how much money brands can spend. And classical music is what was the like the most coveted form of entertainment for a large part of human history. Because it wasn't manufactured, you couldn't throw it out there. Like you couldn't reproduce it. And exactly what you're saying was kind of this further internal dilemma that I faced teaching these incredible people because as the kind of days continued, there was so much us. These are people that literally train every day for five to eight hours per day, every single day, like 365 days per year. And they've been doing this since they were a young child. And they've never posted a single piece of their art online because they don't feel like they're good enough. And I was sitting there and I was like, whoa. Like we, we live in a world where people who don't do the work are the ones who are the most overconfident about posting it online. And it was so complicated for me to find the words to compel someone that's fricking done the work to like do the easy part, which is share it online in order to drive ticket sales because they're already booked as the lead roles at these top symphonies and top opera houses. It was so complicated, like for my brain to reconcile. It's so cool.
- [05:40]
A
I just think that there's something missing in society that's become so short term and people get upset that things don't work the first time. But you have people who train that much and they do a two hour piece and they get absolutely ripped by a professor or the conductor if they get one note in two hours wrong. Now that has an obsessive quality that was destructive and there's missing creativity in that world. But in terms of like when you're looking at your business or your product, like how much are you really leaning into providing the best product or the best service?
- [06:13]
B
Well, that was the other piece of it too, right? Is because the socials that do the best are authentic. It's like to be vulnerable. It's like to kind of really allow people to relate with you. And the Stockholm syndrome is really not the right term. But the student you're talking about, her name is Ida. And what she said to us in kind of exasperation is she's like, I will literally play a two and a half hour piece and I'll get one note wrong. And it is, it's, it's considered abysmal. And the obsession on like technical perfection, opposed to bringing your own creative flair to the approach to music, hinders their ability to be vulnerable because they just, they don't even feel like they're good enough to show that vulnerability. Like they have to hide the ability. It's just this constant strife for perfection from business owners.
- [06:58]
A
I think what you can learn is the people who are doing the Criticism, for the most part, have also done the work right. And what I was thinking about is from a business perspective, I think too many people in today's world don't demand enough from the people who work for them. Right? Everything is just friendly. Oh, you did a good job. Good. Oh, you tried hard, good. No, if you want to be the best, if you really want to take your business, your family to $10 million, $100 million, make a difference, it's not friendly time. Your staff are not your friends. There are people who you put high standards to and you demand performance from them. And you can tell that when you get the right people in organization, they will respond to that. Now you still have to be a human and promote creativity. But they were at one end of the spectrum that shows people will work if you demand more from them.
- [07:44]
B
These were also very special people. But, and I agree with you, I think for me, the main takeaway for business owners is what you're feeling as not being good enough isn't unique to you. Like even at the highest end of specialization, when you devote an entire workday to just practicing your craft, to work to get a solo performance, when there's still tons of competition, like all of the things that you face and you feel become more amplified the further you go. So understanding that you're not alone in that feeling is what you need to work through in order to be the best in your space. Because once we worked through it past really that first day and moving into second, and basically at the end of the week, it was one on ones, they were all so empowered because they want to change the future of classical music. Like they know that there isn't a ton of 20 year olds filling the seats, coming to listen to these shows, listening to pieces that were written hundreds of years ago. But they understood that in order for them to really share their art and to, and to contribute to classical music, they have to be, they need to be the face that's going to change it and to modernize through socials.
- [08:54]
A
Most organizations and professions, unless you're in this marketing world like we saw the same with lawyers and doctors and engineers, because in the past the professionals, the experts didn't do it, they don't feel they should do it, but you can actually feel that you need to do it. And the world has changed, so you really have to lean into it with getting yourself out there on social media. But these people were the best at what they did. So there's nothing to be scared of by sharing it because it's Amazing. But they still wouldn't share it until you got. You were doing like therapy and life coaching with them.
- [09:22]
B
It was literally life coaching because they had everything. Like they got it and they. But the problem is is that nobody wants to be the first to change an industry. And that's also the other piece too is there's a lot of industries where there's a lot of like copy and catting. Like no one is innovating within these, these echo chambers because nobody wants to be that person that is initially laughed at or initially like is breaking out from is the outlier. Right. And that's what holds people that are the best at what they do are the worst at marketing themselves because it's not convenient to mark. You just want to do your art, you just want to do your craft.
- [09:56]
A
That's mean spirited. Sometimes the people who came before you are just doing what they did and they will push you down, especially if you want to do something new. And I've experienced this when I was building a law firm and we did social media early. There's a cycle that happens when you try to do something that's not being done in your industry. And the first stage is ridicule. You do something that other people aren't doing. There's a lot of people around you who know you that will go, who does that person think they are? What are they doing? Look at how that wasn't perfect.
- [10:26]
B
They.
- [10:26]
A
There's ridicule but if you stick with it, if you work through it, it turns into acceptance. Oh yeah, that's another post from that person. Oh, that's, you know, they're posting a lot and then the next one is a little bit of admiration. Wow. I really like how they're comfortable talking about this all the time. And the last phase is envy. They're like, my God, I wish I could be there. How did they get there? Like they, you know. But you have to work through those stages. Whatever industry you're in, whatever business you're in, you always have to work through the ridicule.
- [10:53]
B
I have two stories I want to share to put a face to exactly what you're saying. So there was really two camps that first day in the room. There were. Call them the more kind of traditionalists that came across as more elitist in the sense of social media is, is below the way in which they train and they perform. And it was very much of the mindset of that conductor or the person that's booking that opera singer. They are old, they're not on socials this isn't relevant, so waste my time. And it was really cool for the other half of the room, that. Which was interesting because they were really the students that went to Colburn or to Juilliard. So more the American, like, they're European students, but they still went to school in the US who were like, no, you're completely wrong. I had a colleague of mine at Juilliard that posted a video and literally got booked as a resident at the Met Opera because of the social media post. And she's like, I'm also getting booked in orchestras because they can see my ability to play online. They don't need me to send in my audition tape. She's like, no. Like, the reason I signed up for this, like, this master class is because this is happening in real time in this industry. And it was really interesting. To your point of. There's a lot of people that it's. It's uncomfortable to break from what other people who feel safe are doing because it's. It's often not in people's. It's not people's, like, nature to just start, like, posting themselves online and, like, pushing themselves out, especially if they're humble.
- [12:22]
A
Because they think that they're. They're. They're trying to.
- [12:25]
B
It's against nature. Like, it's not normal. But the other story I want to share to your exact point is this beautiful student, her name is Jamie, and she was initially like, a pop and jazz singer when she was young, and she made the transition into opera at, like, 17. And when she came into the opera program, she had posted because she was doing pop and jazz. And this was like, during the Justin Bieber days, she was posting a lot of her music on YouTube, which was, like, a way to be found. And she posted one of her opera pieces on YouTube. And one of the students saw her post and made like, a snobby, like, off piece comment of, like. And it haunted her since she was 27, 16, 17 years old.
- [13:06]
A
Never posted again.
- [13:07]
B
Never posted again. And she has been booked as the lead in the Viennese Opera.
- [13:13]
A
And the people who do that are often zeros.
- [13:16]
B
Zeros. Well, that's what I was saying. I was like, they are losers. But my point is, she was like, I. And we worked through it, through the social media therapy. And I'm like, Jamie, like, you, you've earned this spot. Nobody's handed you this spot for you to get the lead in the Viennese Opera in the fall show.
- [13:36]
A
Can I. Can I interrupt you? Because I'm getting Goosebumps. Because I remember when the conversation was happening and when she was talking about that. That kind of negative friend tearing her down. But when you said, you've earned it, her whole karma changed. She kind of went like this. But she came in, she goes, I did earn it, right? Like, it was just so visceral. Like, I still getting goosebumps because I.
- [13:57]
B
Was like, dude, you're amazing. Like, you've done the work. And she's like, I have earned it. I have done my work. And I'm like, so you need to get butts in the seats. You need to change the next generation of opera singers. Like, you're a person of color. You're getting leads in the Viennese Opera that didn't allow women that were. Didn't allow women in the orchestra past 2009.
- [14:17]
A
Like, and you had to be over 35.
- [14:18]
B
Over 35. And she's like 22 or something. I'm like, dude, like, you. And she won the competition at the master class at this top university, which is literally this university you're teaching at is above Juilliard. It's number one. It's like the classical musical school. And I'm like, dude, like, you gotta. You gotta create, demand. I'm like, you gotta show this. You gotta change the. Like, you're. You're the. You're the change. Like, you gotta. You gotta change. She's like, you're right. She goes, you are right. She goes, I am gonna post. She's like, I'm. I'm gonna post a video of me singing. She goes, but the only thing is, like, should I turn off comments? Because I just. I can't deal with the comments.
- [14:53]
A
This is why you're a role model to young women. And I want you to emphasize this point here, because you really changed her life with her.
- [14:59]
B
I'm like, what are they going to say? What are they going to comment publicly on your video of you posting that you won a competition of singing and you're the lead in the Viennese Opera. Are they going to tell you you suck? Are they going to tell you you're out of key? Are they going to tell you that you shouldn't have got this. This part? What are they going to comment? And I'm like, also, especially when you show up and you. You share what you just told me, if you create a post and you're like, when I was 17 years old, I changed from pop into jazz, and I. And jazz into opera, and jazz into opera. And when I made that transition, I Had posted a video. I had had a comment that had hindered my ability, crippled me to be able to post my art, that I spend five to eight hours a day training for the last seven years.
- [15:40]
A
Look, one thing is clear. Mean girls suck.
- [15:43]
B
They suck, right?
- [15:44]
A
And so you have to remove them from.
- [15:46]
B
Don't give them the power. So Jamie's like, okay, you're right, it feels uncomfortable, but you're definitely correct. And you know what she posted? She posted her clip the next day of the next day and gave a story. And within the first hour of her posting, had over 20 comments. Beautiful comments, beautiful comments, powerful comments. Comments that will change her life as an artist, because it does. It never hurts the soul to be rewarded for the work that you've put in. But when you don't show people the caliber of your talent, of your what you're, what you're contributing to the universe, we can't thank you and applaud you. And that's exactly. There's just so many stories like this.
- [16:38]
A
Fear is the mind killer when it comes to your own personal life. And the life ruiner, because she was worried about people saying something negative. But once she did it, the people who responded were like, the comments are just giving me chills again, like, how, how much it valid. Like, we literally. You literally changed her life. And I want other, other young people who do the work, who are good humans to shed those mean people who want to tear you down and keep them with you.
- [17:02]
B
Well, in one of the cohorts that we were doing, we do like a. Every six weeks, you know, small business cohort of like 12 business owners. It's so much fun. And one of the members, we were having a conversation more on the lines like this, because this conversation happens all the time. Everybody feels like this. You are not alone. Creating content sucks. And he had seen this video, and I wish I could have it so I could give credit, but basically he's like, in this video, when you're afraid of creating content, there's five people that come to mind. There's five people that hold you back because what they're going to say, what they're going to do, how they're going to feel, block them, block them. Because the sooner that you just block them and get them out of the way and you start living for you and you start figuring out what works. People connect with what you like. Posting is the sooner that you start living your life and you start getting more out of what you're putting into your career, your job, and what you want. To achieve. And this idea of blocking those five people, whenever I say that, everybody. So, like, gutterly, like. Like, they see those five people, they know those five people and get it. Giving them the permission of. If they're the ones that are holding you back, send them a text. Be like. If you need to be like, hey, you know what? I'm blocking you on socials. I'm doing some things that are uncomfortable, but if they're people you can't talk to because you also just. You don't speak with them. Don't apologize. Just do what you need to do to live your life.
- [18:27]
A
Don't be constrained by the change of high school social hierarchy, which a lot of those people who don't achieve anything want to keep the social hierarchy. It reminds me of a parable that I think is relevant. And I heard a while ago, it's two monks walking down a pathway, and then they come to a stream, and there's a woman there in a beautiful, expensive gown, and she can't cross the stream because it would ruin the gown. So one of the monks picks her up and carries her across the stream and puts her down. She says, thank you, and they walk for another 15 minutes. And then the other monk looks to him and goes, you know, according to our vows or whatever, you're not allowed to touch women and pick them up and do that. Like, you should be ashamed. How could you do that? And they walked on a little bit further, and the other. And the monk who did that service looks at him and goes, I put her down 15 minutes ago, and you're still carrying her in your head. Right. And I think people need to realize you don't have to carry these negative people in your head anymore. Put them down and just move on. And there's so much joy ahead of you. And you really changed their life. Like, I was really proud of what you did there.
- [19:28]
B
It was quite literally one of the most incredible career milestones of my life. And it reinforces the reality that I love working with humans, because you don't get those moments from selling more backpacks. You know, like, these are the things that change your. Your life. And I hope that this conversation empowers you to do something that makes you uncomfortable, because the greatest things come from working through discomfort. And it's been the greatest gift that you've given me, Philip, in creating content and putting myself out there. And it's the greatest gift that I feel like we can continue to share because the world wants more of you, but they can't get to know you.
- [20:09]
A
If you're not showing up, if you're listening to this. One of the things that surprises us is how few of the people who listen to the podcast actually follow it. And if you enjoy the content and the frank discussions we have that. That expose us to criticism from people who know us and the industries, I'd ask you a favor. Please follow and share the content so that we can get our voices to more people, just like we're advocating for the people we consult with to share their voices so they can be seen and heard.
- [20:35]
B
All right. So also funny, we were at this extremely liberal arts school, and that's where I recorded the video on Sydney Sweeney.
- [20:41]
A
Yes.
- [20:42]
B
And I'm ready.
- [20:43]
A
American Eagle Sydney Sweeney surrounded by a very liberal school.
- [20:48]
B
The more and more content that comes out about Sydney Sweetie reinforces that nobody understands advertising marketing. And this is why you need to be so critical in the marketing advice that you receive, because it is a brand killer. The advice that's out there right now.
- [21:08]
A
There's so many people that copy what, what you do in your videos, and I saw a few of the marketing people kind of copy your type of thing. But if you were to critically look at what they say, there are functionally are ed. Like, they really don't. They really don't get it. They're just. They're just posturing and saying nonsense because they don't really understand that marketing is warfare and marketing is business. But they're regurgitating nonsense to business owners, claiming they have a million followers and they do all of this stuff. Like, I want you to share what you think of advertising and what that American Eagle campaign was, because when we talked about. I know you're a little reluctant because it seemed too controversial, but I'm like, let's get past the surface level nonsense and look at what actually happened here. And it was actually advertising.
- [21:53]
B
Well, what I think is actually the most important to point out is how much the political climate has changed. Because you showed me that this was an exact rip off of the Brooke Shields, Calvin Klein commercial from 20 years ago. And like, literally word for word, like, we're gonna. We're gonna show them literally word for.
- [22:16]
A
Word and ambiance and tone. Right? Like everything. It was a rip off, but that was very sexual. Brooke Shields and Calvin Klein's. She was young. It was incredibly sexual. Yeah. 16, 17. And. But it shows you that in the past they knew how to advertise, and today marketing and they don't know how to advertise anymore. They just. They're just all doing the same thing.
- [22:36]
B
About this veiled virtue signaling of we all need to show you how good of people we are. Which ultimately blends in. When every single person is using the same message with the same approach to models, with the same visual direction and creative direction, it becomes more of the same. So let's break it down. So Sydney Sweeney came out and there's a series of commercials that were directed by American Eagle. And the initial video that we did was effectively like, guys, she's hot. Sex sells. This is not new. We need to get back to what the brands that want to make money and don't want to be losing $68 million, which is what American Eagle lost in its first quarter, before this, before this.
- [23:23]
A
So using the old model of pleasing everybody and pretending to be a good person rather than a business, they're losing money, losing money.
- [23:30]
B
So the idea of being a good person is fantastic. I believe in being a good person. But you also need to make money as a business. And how you make money as a business is by leveraging sex, controversial statements, emotions, so that people start talking about a brand so that people can feel compelled to connect with it or an align their values. Which is exactly what marketing during the great days of the 80s, 90s and 2000s were doing. Is that Levi's, Calvin Klein, like, these brands became cult favorites because they walked the line.
- [24:08]
A
So courage is required. But that when we talked about it, like, I was like, don't, don't listen to the hype you're seeing on social media. Somebody at American Eagle wanted the controversy.
- [24:18]
B
Nobody 100% wanted the controversy.
- [24:20]
A
And that's the, you have to get noticed being courageous. You can't be great. I love that Jerry Maguire movie when he goes into the coffee shop and he's called Coffee Shop Jesus. And he says, that's the path to greatness. You got to put your ex out there. Like, if you're not willing to take a risk, you're not going to be great. And if you're just copying everybody else, you're going to be mediocre until you go bankrupt.
- [24:43]
B
Well, here's like the second and third layer of strategy to this is that Good American owns the market now for that, like, inclusive body, positive, more focused on African American women, or like model models of different shapes and sizes. And Good American is killing it. Like, they filled the gap in the market because all of these brands that were trying to be inclusive didn't actually sell jeans that fit these women. And so Good American came forward and was like, hey, you know, do your American Eagle jeans not fit even though the model looks like our models? Well, here, now you can actually buy jeans that fit. And that's why Good American did so well, is that they. They became a category king by owning a part of the market that had been ignored. And that's what started so many of these marketing people are getting wrong online is that to show yourself as inclusive and virtuous and then to not have the sizes, the cuts, and the blue, like the footprint, to attract that person results in a brand that loses $68 million in the first quarter. And instead they need to reposition, retweak to get back to their hero. Product was always jeans. American Eagle was famous for launching jeans that were comfortable, that were breathable, that were flexible. They. They came up during the age of, like, when people started wanting more stretchy jeans. And American Eagle owned that. It's what made them famous. It's what put them on the map. They were the cheaper alternative to Abercrombie and to Hollister. They still sold that kind of American sexuality like that, that kind of Americana image. And they had a very strong hold in the market. And off of that, they were able to expand their mall footprint. They've become a pretty similar staple mall retailer across North America. They have a. They have a. Had a massive mass appeal. And then they started to pivot to inclusivity with their Aerie brand. When that became the thing of the moment, and they know it became done, Tablespoon started losing because everyone started doing it, and it's no different. This past week, the original founder of Outdoor Voices had to recome back to her company, and she's the one that kind of made, like, athleisure, like, outside of fitness. Like, people wear it to the like to. You'd wear, like, a tennis dress, like hiking, or to go get Matcha. Like, the Outdoor Voices transcended athletic apparel. And the reason why they had to come back is because people are no longer wearing athleisure. Like, they were, like, now post covet. Like, even I said to you at the airport, I'm sick of wearing leggings at the airport. Like, I want to wear regular clothes now. I've overdone. I have a million black leggings. I'm done with it, and the market is done with it. Legging sales are down by 40%. So it becomes table stakes when every single competitor, like Vori, had to redo its color line. Lululemon just had to remove its middle seam from its aligned leggings because Nobody's frickin buying Lululemon. Lululemon is like skimified their brand. We walk in, it's like all these different skus are no longer a fitness brand because it's table stakes to be in the fitness space. And it's the same thing for American Eagle and Aerie. People are saying you were inclusive. They launched Aerie as an inclusive brand 10 years ago and lost money. Now they're losing money now because everything. Because they weren't real inclusive. It was a fake black rock ESG move for them to have an inclusive. This was back in the day where, like, it was Victoria's Secret, pink and airy at the mall. So they.
- [28:07]
A
I'm just doing gospel accompaniment.
- [28:09]
B
Keep going open. They opened a box at the mall. Now when you think about inclusive activewear or inclusive underwear line, you're buying it on Instagram off of an influencer that's launched it because of a need, because it aligns with their values.
- [28:24]
A
I just want to suggest your criteria for underwear selection shouldn't be inclusivity. I think it should be pretty much targeted to what you want from your underwear. So, you know, it's. What I come down to is strategy. Nobody really understands strategy in these areas. And founders and CEOs have delegated strategy to marketing people who call themselves professionals but have no idea how to critically analyze a market and come up with an actionable and executable strategy that wins. It's about winning.
- [28:52]
B
I know.
- [28:53]
A
And they've handed the reins over to these people who exist in this grievance, politically correct culture, and it's ruining their brand and their business. And when it comes to American Eagle, my thoughts are, when you look at brands and how people perceive your product, it's like wine. If I give you wine, expensive wine in a paper cup, you might not even know it's. It's expensive wine. You might prefer something else. But what that American Eagle campaign did, whether you agree with it or not, is when somebody sees somebody wearing an American Eagle pair of jeans, they think that they have. You know, you're kind of signaling, I have good jeans. Like, whether or not they do or not, like, it changes the way you can perceive somebody in it. That's the power of branding. When you get a message out there in that way, well, you're now allowing.
- [29:37]
B
People to signal the way that they want to be perceived when they wear a brand. And that holds value. And what's interesting is I actually also want to add to what you're saying. I also think that time's up for this, like, fake blanketing of, like, inclusivity so that we can't see the ugliness of society. Because this, the, the. The response from the. From the ads alone. So to go back, the reason why I was trepidicious in doing it is because I didn't love the ad. Like, I didn't love the. That she was styled. I didn't love the way that she was acting. Like, the Brook Shields version is like, 10 times better. Like, even the way that, like, they made her do, like, movements in her jeans to show the flexibility. Like, to show their good jeans, putting them on.
- [30:21]
A
Like, it was sexual. It was like there was. There was a lot of things going on that was artistic.
- [30:25]
B
It was a better.
- [30:26]
A
They just made Sydney Sweeney talk throaty. They just went all in on just simple sexuality. But because it's so different than everything else, it's working well.
- [30:34]
B
It's because it's saying what. What nobody wants to say. And like, Doja Cat, for example, like, did a video instantly, and it was like her doing a moniker of, like, a redneck, a stereotypical, like, redneck accent of, like, making fun of her saying that she's got good genes. And then there's such an. Like this, this outcry of because someone who's objectively good looking regurgitates an ad from the 80s saying that she's got good genes. It's. It's Nazi. Like, it's just. It's. Where have we gone in society? Like, what does that take away from a woman of color? If a girl that is objectively beautiful has good genes? Why can't people of color have good genes? Why can't. Why can't anybody else have good genes? Like, why can't anybody say that they have good genes? And it has to not be a black woman.
- [31:24]
A
Yeah.
- [31:25]
B
Like, it's just, it's. It's getting to a point where. And this is what, what paralyzes founders is because they can't see, speak to anyone because they're just so afraid of this, like, mass wall. Like, Doja Cat wasn't buying American Eagle. Like, these people that were. That have an opinion of American Eagle weren't their core customer. And American Eagle was losing. And they understand that they. The tides are changing in America. Like, the last election showed a move away from that overly inclusive narrative and that it was. It was won by 52%. So American Eagle is like, this is our last. We're going to be basically, like, in the hole if we don't change a strategy. They just aligned with the political climate in the United States. Like that's good strategy. If you're literally a faceless retailer at a mall that has no, like American Eagle has nothing now other than this.
- [32:20]
A
I come across this, we come across this a lot with founders because we all want to be good humans. Like we want to lift all boats. But you know, when you allow industries or movements to become ideologies, they take over and they ruin it. I've worked with so many founders who are actually, they're actually losing their investors money because they don't have the courage to, to make it a business. They're running a business, they got money from investors and then they're using their business as a way to socially signal.
- [32:49]
B
Yeah.
- [32:50]
A
And that's not what business is. Business is about giving a, where the money is. Give a rate of return to your investors. Grow, conquer territory and marketplace and make freaking money. Right? And they're, they forgot it because everybody. And I don't blame them, they've just been so kind of conditioned to believe that they have to do this, that they've lost a plot. But when you lose your investors money, you should reconsider like your strategy. And I don't think a lot of them have any good strategy. It's time to look at this situation. See that American Eagle stock has gone up. It might be temporary, it might be long term.
- [33:23]
B
It went up 10% the day after the campaign and then it went up 27% after Donald Trump praised the ad. So it's, it's skyrocketed. But also it goes back to simple branding principles. Right. If you're a founder led brand and you're hyper involved in your brand and your business to, to go and swing the pendulum in another way that's not aligned with your brand is non strategic. Right. It's, it's understanding strategy is dependent on what you're faced with as a brand and business. And that's what the criticism I have for all these like social media experts online that are like you were about inclusivity. How could you do this? Because the core fundamental marketing principle that they're missing is when people zig, you zag. And when you're a faceless corporation that is a publicly traded company that has brick and mortar and you have the same ads as the next four stores that are lined into the mall and you're all selling jeans. Like when I think about here in Canada, you've got Garage, you have American Eagle, you have Aritzia, you have H and M, you have Zara, you have all of these companies that more or less are selling the same product. How do I drive someone to go into American Eagle versus now? I'm actually probably going to go check out American Eagle because at least they're doing something interesting, right? Versus before. There's no demand.
- [34:42]
A
What this trend has had done over the last 10 years is it made marketing and advertising agencies incredibly mediocre or below average. Because ask yourself, if you're a founder, how much skill does it take to recommend you do what everybody else is doing?
- [34:57]
B
0.
- [34:57]
A
How much skill does it take to just say, we need to be inclusive? There's no intellect used there. You're just regurgitating. And so you're just trying to be more of that. But there's no creativity in thinking. And that's why most of these agencies and these marketers who are trying to jump on this stuff, they're not worth your dollars. Don't give your dollars to people who are saying vanilla, boring stuff like, give your dollars to people who know how to come up with creative strategy. And I think that kind of dovetails quite well into what's going on in the movie industry.
- [35:28]
B
Oh, my gosh, does it ever. Can we talk about Happy Gilmore 2? This is the death of Adam Sandler.
- [35:36]
A
I've said it before about a few things, but, like, Happy Gilmore 2 sucks like it is. I watched it on the airplane over because I loved Happy Gilmore when it came out, it was edgy. It had great villains. It was different. It was politically incorrect. Like, it was like. It was edgy stuff for, like, young males who got it and that's why it was so successful. And I'm like, okay, happy Gilmore 2 is coming back. Adam's done some cool movies with uncut gems and the basketball movie, hopefully. This is amazing. And I've never been so disappointed other than maybe Roadhouse to. With the absolute garbage quality of that movie.
- [36:16]
B
It was interesting because I had no interest in watching it because I already know. I already knew what to expect. And when I was thinking about it deeply in reflection, because you were. You actually gave it your attention, I decided that I am too good for that extra impression. But what it comes down to, to me is that movies used to matter and it's. There's a larger issue with all of the. Over consumption. And I feel the same way about branding, which is what we'll get to with the skims discussion next, in that it just. There's no. There's no work. Like, people don't have to wait for anything anymore. And the movie industry used to be special. Like you had to go to a theater and you like, you would see the trailers and the movie would be launched like six months later. It was an event like now we live in this world where most people work from home. They have like Netflix on in the background. They just want to perpetually binge content. There's. They don't really care about the gravitas of the plot or like though it's just, it's an over like AI and Green Screen Festival. And it's all that Happy Gilmore is, is. It's a look, another celebrity look, another celebrity look, another celebrity like look how many people that we could get in with zero plot or focus on actually making an iconic second movie.
- [37:32]
A
It was vapid. It felt like it was written by AI. I actually felt like Netflix or somebody needed a tax write off. So they spent an incredible amount of money on production that wasn't tied to any story. And it's an insult to every fan of that movie. It's an insult. It's an insult to the intellect of people who care. But your point, I think was really interesting is that they may be realizing that people aren't really paying that much attention to the quality of the story. They just want to get a few kind of dopamine butt bumps. Well, because they're watching Netflix while they're on tick tock, you know, and then running around each other as opposed to when you go into a cinema and you sit down, you can't have your phone out. You're investing your time. You expect somebody to give the work. Like the musicians we talked, put the work into making a story. This movie was an utter disgrace. Like it was an utter disgrace in terms of storyline. It was, it was diluted into politically correct nonsense. There was no, no edge. They destroyed the villain, Shooter McGavin, who's iconic like the guy like Schumer. Gavin, you're probably not aware of it and some of the audience are, but you need real villains in stories. You can't have fake villains. Or they kind of made the villain into somebody who's now friendly. They tried to make it this warm heart. It was just garbage. And then they, because they had the budget and that's what these big companies do in their advertising. They get a big budget and they put a big production on, but they don't say anything interesting. And they brought every pro golfer into this movie. And they became, the golfers became punchlines, like they were just. I felt embarrassed for them being there. And if I may Just talk about the storyline for two seconds. You can tell that somebody paid to have them do an indirect attack against that Live other golf thing. But this is why you need to hire people who know how to write. So they make Happy Gilmore kind of fight against the live alternative. But if you want a good, a good storyline, you can have Happy Gilmore doing really good in the pga, have him get sell out to go to Live, and then have a redemption arc where he comes back and, and comes back to real golf and what it was about. Instead, they just made it a caricature. It was absolutely useless. I think they had a chance to make it Happy Gilmore 2. Focusing on golf, a combination between caddyshack and succession. Right. That would have been really edgy and said something interesting instead. I think this will go down as Adam Gilmore's most embarrassing movies. He phoned it in. You can tell I'm passionate about it. It's we love golf. I hate this movie. You almost should watch it to see how bad it is.
- [40:04]
B
Adam Gilmore.
- [40:04]
A
Oh, did I say Sam?
- [40:05]
B
You said Adam Gilmore.
- [40:06]
A
Adam Gilmore.
- [40:07]
B
And what they figured out at this.
- [40:09]
A
Point, I hate that movie.
- [40:11]
B
When I think about it though, like, what they figured out is that if you. It's the same thing as, as social media and skims, which we're about to talk about. Because what these brands have figured out and the way that these platforms allow for the shitting on of the art is because they understand that if you have a brand that people already were connected with, right? This is Happy gilmore came out 29 years ago. So if you have a brand that people are already that are connected with and you throw in a ton of cameos of big names, you will generate views in the first day that Happy Gilmore 2 was released on Netflix, 42 million views. Now, the reason why Netflix does this is, is that 42 million people are on Netflix and aren't on Crave or Prime or Hulu or Disney plus. And when they get that level of market share, there is a high percentage that people will continue to stay on Netflix that will create a subscription to watch the movie and then will go on to watch other movies. Because what these platforms are is they are effectively time eaters, right? They want to eat more time from their user base because the more time on app, they already make money from the subscription. But the more likely that you're longer on the app, the better data you have for shareholders and the more likely that they are to renew their subscription. So it's not about the art of creating great pieces. It's about generating the most number of eyeballs.
- [41:55]
A
To me, it shows how money destroys art. Because when Netflix first came out, they focused on telling good stories. And Netflix movies were way better once they started making movies than what Hollywood was doing, because Hollywood was in the Marvel phase of nonsense, and they actually had people. But now that Netflix has so much money, they're now destroying their brand. So they might have got 42 million viewers, but I now consider Netflix movies to be garbage. Like, deep down, anything that Netflix does I'm just gonna assume is garbage, because this, this was fucking garbage.
- [42:24]
B
But the last few things don't rip.
- [42:26]
A
Me off the audience.
- [42:27]
B
Yes, you feel ripped off like the last few. But I've been like, I've been noticing this with Netflix. It's like they're just. They're trying to rush the production because they've got such high quality cameras, so they can make. They can package something to look way better than the substance that it doesn't have. And that's what's really fascinating about this. Like, the same thing with Roadhouse too. It, like, if I, if you. If we were in, like, a writing situation and you're like, okay, Camille, like, you have two days to redo Roadhouse to, like, my first draft would have been better than the script and the way that it was written. But because they throw in Conor McGregor and they throw in these other big names, Jake Gyllenhaal, people will show up and they'll watch the movie and it gets them all of those pieces that we talked about. And it's actually, it's what's wrong with the world. It's what's wrong with branding. It's what's wrong with the destruction of art and the learnings from this. The takeaway from this is like, we need to align with our wallets. We need to speak out loud. We need to request they return back. Because otherwise. I saw this when we were, like, landing from the airport and we were driving and it was like another movie with, like, Austin Butler and, like, guns and, like, you can tell there was tons of green screen in action. There is a desire to just mass produce these movies with these names because every Wednesday, Thursday, there's no, think about it. You can go home tonight and watch three movies while you're cooking dinner.
- [43:50]
A
You don't have to go and rent them at the store or go to a theater. But prime is guilty. Like what they did with Lord of the Rings and the political, like, it's a combination of money and our society has begun to accept incompetent people as long as they fit categories. And so you get big, you get money. You can't fire people who suck. It just it self perpetuates average or below average content because you can't fire anybody. But you're still making money because people are still bought into your brand enough to take another shot at it.
- [44:21]
B
Yes.
- [44:22]
A
But if you're a founder, you cannot fall victim to that. You don't have, you don't have the safety net to make those type of mistakes, to invest money in things that have no strategy and don't work. So don't follow what the big people are doing and the agencies are doing. Like be creative, know your strategy, find your audience and have some courage.
- [44:41]
B
All right, so I'm going to tie this though to skims.
- [44:44]
A
Yeah.
- [44:44]
B
Because I did do a post on social media where I wasn't going to do a video on the Skims headscarf, but I have marinated on it. And what frustrates me about Skims is that there's so many well intentioned business owners that are impressed with the brand. The brand house of Skims, and rightfully so. Skims has done a lot of things right. And I've really enjoyed supporting Kim Kardashian for launching and creating a brand that really transcends like the generation. Like I'm really, I really had a lot of positive things to, to say. But what's frustrating is that it's, I have intel, I have inside knowledge that they are gearing up to go public. And if you analyze every decision that they've made in the last 12 months, there is so many obvious clues of trying to pre pump the stock for when they ipo. And it's frustrating because they have a lot of these like shock and awe moments that create these virality and everyone's talking about it and they're creating this buzz and they're getting a ton of earned media value. Right. So this past week they launched this like head, this head bandage. And the idea is that it like snatches your chin. It's a non surgical way to like snatch your chin. And initially Kim Kardashian and her sisters were famous because they brought back waist trainers. So they brought back actual corsets as a way to like show getting that hourglass shape. And it was like all the rage, full transparency. I totally had one. Never wore it because it's sucked to wear, but I was even influenced at like everyone was, everyone was buying these corsets and it wasn't even their brand. They were Another brand, but they were, like, wearing them. So anyways, this kind of ties into, like, the original Kim Kardashian lore. And the idea is that it like, naturally snatches your face, but it's like collagen infused fabric. And like, basically all the surgeons came out right away and they're like, we tell people to wear bandages to help with swelling. Like, there is just. You're not snatching your chin that people pay surgery for by wearing a bandage around your head at night. Like, this is stupid. But where it's more stupid is that it has nothing to do with the brand. And it's the same line of, like, them launching these bras with, like, the fake nipple piercings or the fake, like, nipples where it looks like fake boobs. And the reason is that it frustrates me is it's just producing more crap that's going to go in a landfill.
- [47:07]
A
I disagree with you. I don't think it's the same. Because having a bra that shows nipples or piercings is a way that some people might feel because they were in the clothing business. The reason why they came out with the garters was to make you look more sexually attractive if somebody thinks it does. But a headscarf is now getting into kind of medical plastic surgery. You know what I mean? Like, it's. They're moving into an area, but they're breaking their brand promise because it doesn't work. Like, they're actually taking people's money for something that doesn't work. Like the garter at least works. Right. Or the bra that emphasizes some part of the breast works. But this headscarf thing is just money getting thrown at something to try. And, like, that is where you're breaking your trust with your clients. So I. I'm somebody who goes short on skims if it goes public.
- [47:52]
B
Yeah.
- [47:53]
A
That's not my investor advice, but I would personally go short on that stock because, as you say, they're building a very feeble foundation for prolonged growth because they're losing their. Their brand.
- [48:04]
B
You're fundamentally correct. But there's two things that I want to touch on that bother me about this strategy. And the first is the easier one to tackle, which is like, Anthony Hopkins wore it because he was something like that in silence. Yeah. And it was like a totally organic moment. Or like, they gave it to him, they shipped. It was. Anyways, it was well played. And there's a lot of business owners that are like, wow, this is so awesome. What a great strategy. This is cool. Wow. Love it. And it Bothers me for the reasons that you just said, where we're celebrating people for just creating viral moments that don't actually connect to the brand. And it becomes signal versus noise. And a lot of business owners want to go in and copy and paste what they're doing at this, like, massively large scale. And it's. It. Not only is it not scalable, but it's. It. It's not actually going to help your brand. It upsets me for the business owners that are trying to learn from these behemoths that have just kind of popped up and have really nailed it with branding, but are moving away from branding principles that you can learn from one.
- [49:14]
A
The Signal and the Noise is one of my favorite books. And you guys can imagine it if you're. If you're old enough to know to turn radio. Like, you hear noise between channels, and then when you hit the channel, you get the signal, so you get the message. And in our lives, with everything distracting us, there's so much noise. And if you're a founder or somebody who's in marketing, that has to achieve a mission. Your job is to. To receive the signal and then to focus your team on the signal, not the noise. And that Steve Jobs was famous for this, right? He focused absolutely on making the best product at every level, right? And he removed all noise. He didn't even listen to other people's opinions because he was passionate about it. He had confidence that he knew, and he was seldom wrong. If you're a founder that knows your business, your industry, right, you have to make people focus on the signal so that you can get your product to market in the way that changes things.
- [50:06]
B
And that's exactly that brings me to my second point. Is that the reason why I am unhappy with these launches, like the nipple piercing, like this, this head scarf thing, is because skims entered into the market and was successful because they followed a signal. There was no modernized shapewear brand that fit different shapes and sizes and where fashion was going. So Kim Kardashian developed this out of a core need, right? She's really been a fashion icon, and she wears shapewear under different garments. So she was the first one to create, like, basically, like, imagine wearing like a dress with like, a high slit. She actually created a shapewear where like, one leg was cut off so that you would have a shapewear on that side, but not that side for a dress like that. So she really revolutionized shapewear and she extended that that product skew because she leaned into actually creating really great basics for men and for women that at a price, like the competitor at that point was like a hand rower, singer, it was really quite expensive. Like you'd get these like 500 pajamas at Berg dress. But they weren't a complicated cut in style. It's just that they didn't exist. So her signal and the reason why the brand was successful is she offered a fantastic product at a reasonable price that didn't exist, that had a great brand around it that made women feel special and it really boomed into being a great brand. But the problem is, is that where they started and what made them successful is not what they're continuing to do today at a mass scale. And it bothers me because I think that we should have more critical conversations on brands that are just selling junk that's going to sit in landfills, that are trendy, when you could just be offering a great product that's a staple that people could just be buying into. Like, I just, I have an issue with this perpetual capitalism where every brand is just always trying to make more money and always sell new stuff. And I, I just, I like, I.
- [52:02]
A
Like perpetual capitalism, but I think there's short term strategy and long term strategy. And what happens is Kim, who is great at what she built, then got the success and then started listening to all these advisors, right? That's what usually what happens is the founder has a passion, has a vision, has a noise, like gets rid of the noise. But then when they get busy, if you get like, Steve Jobs didn't wear fancy clothes, he didn't go to fancy, fancy parties, right? He didn't fall victim to the entourage. He was passionate about making the next amazing thing. It seems like what happened with Skims is that she did something amazing and then got caught up in, in all of it and then got shallow and is now doing things that don't, that aren't purists. Like she could have gone from the style that she created with Skims, a beginning and now find a way to move it into another market segment following the same kind of principles, like, you know, that, that, that create beauty in other scenarios. But instead, as you're saying, they hire MBAs, CEOs come in, everybody starts telling you she's busy. The founder gets busy doing all the parties or all the glam stuff and they forget about the purity of what made it amazing in the first part. And then it gets diluted. They make money, they're going to go ipo, it's going to have a bump. And then I forecast it's Going to crash and eventually die.
- [53:21]
B
Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't even give her that much credit. I don't think that this is, like, MBAs that are saying, make a nipple piercing bra. I think this is someone that's built a career off of perpetualizing 15 minutes. You know, like, she's.
- [53:36]
A
She's constantly Kanye.
- [53:38]
B
She's really done every. It's like, just. She needs to constantly stay relevant. And I think that she really is a strong creative force behind these ideas. And, like, the woman is smart. I just. I. The reason why I wanted to give skims credit initially is that it wasn't gimmicky shit. It was, like, actually good stuff.
- [53:56]
A
I got skims, like, loungewear. It's really cool.
- [53:58]
B
But that was the thing, is that, like, I wanted to almost shit on it initially because I anticipated it to be gimmicky, and it transcended my expectations, and it became a great brand. And I was like, I actually really respected her business acumen, her intelligence, her ability to launch a product that was actually needed in market. And it's almost frustrating in kind of seeing how all these brands like Aloe and Lululemon, like, they're just all kind of doing the same thing. It's like, how do I just throw something out there so that we can sell it out? And it. People wear it for 10 minutes, and then it's just. It's just. It's not good.
- [54:34]
A
You can't do it at the low level when you're a founder at that 2 million in revenue. Like, you can't. You can't do that. You have to focus on making something special.
- [54:43]
B
Why do you want to do it? I just. I. I just feel like it's. This is just more on my, like, philosophy, esoteric of, like, you know, brands should make the world better.
- [54:52]
A
But it's kind of like. Like, I. I was just thinking about Uggs. Like, the. When you talk with the founder of Uggs, like, he made something that was spectacular when he sells it now, there's an ugg store with 125 different versions of. Of stuff that is just called Ugg.
- [55:06]
B
It's junk.
- [55:06]
A
Like, it's just junk.
- [55:07]
B
Yeah. Like, why don't. Why can't you just keep your, like, seven styles that are awesome, launch another two or three every year that are, like, additional, like, new styles?
- [55:16]
A
That's Chanel.
- [55:17]
B
It's not anymore.
- [55:18]
A
No, but, you know, that's how you build something. I know anyhow, but highly recommend Austria for a vacation. Get into the mountains, where they did sound of music. Watch the Sound of Music again. Right? We're recommending to people in this industry, go back to vintage art, 60s, 70s, even the 80s. They knew how to tell a story.
- [55:36]
B
Yeah.
- [55:36]
A
Look at some of their commercials and copy them as American Eagle did. They knew how to tell a story. They understood advertising. Today, they do not get advertising.
- [55:44]
B
Well, before we wrap up, and it could be a little bit longer because I actually do want to touch on why Austria was such a fantastic return to great branding principles. Like well done execution, not over the top, focus on the details. And this was a really special place. So this was called I'm not gonna luck. It was actually like one of my favorite pastimes was try to pronounce all the German words. We were in Austria, but this beer hall is run by a monastery and it's been there since like 1543 or something crazy. And it really is the last of its kind in Europe for kind of all of the pieces that it has. So it's this huge building, four ingredients.
- [56:32]
A
In the beer still poured out of wood caskets, gravity fed. So no pressure, no change on the outskirts of Salzburg, but just spectacular culture.
- [56:42]
B
So it houses like a thousand people and they've got all these different halls that people can sit in. It's all of the same tech since literally 1548. And the way you come in and you grab whatever size of pint you.
- [56:57]
A
Want off the wall, this mug, and you have to wash it.
- [57:01]
B
You have to wash it. Your. So no, you first, you buy it. So you like, you give the token or you pay for your cup, you go and wash it and then you stand in a short line and a guy fills it up out of the barrel. And what's so cool is that they like actually encourage you. Like they have kids around, they have dogs, People bring their dogs inside.
- [57:19]
A
They say bring your own food if you want.
- [57:20]
B
Encourage you to bring your own food. But they also have this artisanal food hall where like these local food providers and it's like really good food. It's like amazing cheese plates and like schnitzel and like just really good quality food. And it's, it, it's so well executed. And these are like one. The branding was fantastic. The vibe was amazing. The flow was great. And they just returned to original principles. Like, we don't make stuff like this anymore. It's like you have to like exit through the gift shop and like it's all corporate owned and there's no, like, it doesn't have that joy to.
- [57:56]
A
It's Transitory.
- [57:58]
B
And if you're going to Austria, you have to check this place out because it was just, it, it's what we need more of in the world. Like in, in a world that's throwing out nipple piercing bras for a 10 minute hit on Instagram, like this was really cool. There was families, there was young people, there was old people, there was like all different walks of life. It was, you can tell a really special like community connection point.
- [58:21]
A
And no an MBA would have looked at that or a CMO would have come in and go like look, we gotta get taps that are pressurized so we can get more per. But you know what I mean, you lose something in the long run and we need to as, as founders and people who care about making things that are amazing to stay true to your brand, then sell it, get your exit and let somebody else screw, you know, screw it up if you want, but if you're a founder, stay true to your brand and make an experience that people will talk about.
- [58:48]
B
I just, but I want to, I want to encourage people to actually make the world better. Like I want to encourage people to create a brand that leaves a memory on your clients and your customers and actually like when I go into a space like that and I, when I look back on my life, it's places like that that I'm so glad that like I went into and I spent money. And I think when we talk about the art of the brand, if you're just looking to cash out and to make a ton of money, I don't actually really feel that aligned because to me branding is art and I, and I want to bring back that art and branding because when it goes back to those classical musicians or a lot of you listening to this, who are, who are devoting your life to making your, your practice, your industry, your patients, your customers lives better. We need more of brands like yours and like this than we just need for people that see simply want to make money alone. And I'm kind of going back right now and I'm re listening to a lot of the, the book classics and what was interesting is I think it was Seth Godin, but I've like consumed so many in the last two weeks. And he said, he's like, you know, you always hear people say if I can capture it probably wasn't Seth Godin, but it was one of those strong business books, 10% of a market, maybe it was zero to one, period. Peter Thiel. Because if I, if I can capture 10% of the market, the market is $15 million, you know what I mean? And he's like, but the problem with that mindset is that you're only focused on the potentiality. Like if the small percentage of the market is worth that much money, think how hard it is to actually be able to break in to take a percentage of that market share for the players that are in there, how much money they're spending. And it goes back to that play bigger concept. A book I highly recommend where if you cannot enter a market and be a category king, which means you can own over 76% of your market share, then you are, you're only going to be fighting for the scraps and constantly in a stressed out mode. And I, over our time, in doing this, over a decade now, a lot of the people that reach out that, that, that are looking for the desperate help for branding or marketing, the most are looking for support because they didn't enter into the space for the right reasons. Right. They were. It's only to get that percentage and they think marketing and branding is the difference.
- [60:52]
A
You go into business for yourself, like you want to change the world, but at some point. But if you don't have a strategy, you won't have an exit plan and you'll just struggle all the time. So you need a good strategy. You need to build something amazing if you want to keep it in your family for 200 years. True. But there's only one of these in all of Europe, so that's not really the plan. Right. The founders have to have a strategy so they can build a brand that has value, that protects the people that they love, gives the lifestyle that they want.
- [61:15]
B
And you're a scaling expert. Like I agree with you on that. You need to have a trajectory of scaling. My point is, is if your perspective going into it is how to get out of it, then that, then those are the, like a lot of the people that you work with with SC scaling is, they've also been doing this for 40 years and they're at a point where they actually like really need to scale or they really need to get out. Like it's.
- [61:35]
A
Their business is crushing them.
- [61:36]
B
It's a, it's a different aspect of time is my point. Right. It's like it's you, you shouldn't be trying to get into something with planning like the exit or if you do, then you're really not interested in branding because that's not where that, that's not a branding conversation.
- [61:49]
A
It's not a branding conversation.
- [61:50]
B
It's not a branding conversation.
- [61:51]
A
It's a money conversation. Well, that's a marketing conversation. Let's have more of these conversations next. Next week when we get back from Texas.
- [61:58]
B
We do. We get back from Texas, we're going to be seeing Patty and Joanne. If you haven't seen them on Instagram.
- [62:02]
A
And tick tock, they are hilarious.
- [62:05]
B
They really are. So check them out. And I really look forward to posting all the stuff that we got on Austria. We got a lot of really great content and I really.
- [62:15]
A
Everybody, your one video, people are going to think it's e. It's AI generated. Like it is so beautiful. That thing's got to go up.
- [62:22]
B
Well, hope everyone has a great week. We're so happy to be back and speak.
- [62:26]
A
Follow the art of the brand. If you're here and you're not following us, follow the art of the brand.
- [62:30]
B
So more people on YouTube, even if you don't use YouTube, just like help us out, share it.
- [62:34]
A
We need more people to get it. We're putting our necks out there doing good content.
- [62:37]
B
What a brand, what a brand, what a brand what a mighty good brand.