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- [00:00]
Camille
A$AP Rocky has been named the newest house ambassador for Chanel. I'm kind of surprised to say this, but Chanel needs A dollar AP Rocky more than A dollar AP Rocky needs Chanel. They didn't even pretend to take out the obvious clues that chatgpt wrote. They didn't even use Claude Premium.
- [00:18]
Phillip
It diminished her brand or exposed her as not what I thought she was.
- [00:21]
Camille
So the Cambridge Dictionary 2025 Word of the year is parasocial relationship. And basically the term describes a one sided cy. Psychological connection where a person feels they know a media figure, celebrity influencer or character intimately, even though the figure doesn't know them back.
- [00:40]
Phillip
It's not surprising because our society has kind of is moving towards larger collections of broken people who don't have identities, resilience or and they're just living through other people.
- [00:49]
Camille
Diet Coke has come out with a new campaign where they're calling Diet Coke the Fridge cigarette.
- [00:57]
Phillip
All of the movie things show people getting so satisfied by taking that draw of the smoke after sex or after a meeting or something.
- [01:05]
Camille
Or they're about to have a stressful conversation. PickYourBaby.com has had this viral set of ads that are taking off on the Internet.
- [01:14]
Phillip
Like, to me it makes perfect sense if technology allows us to do it. Why wouldn't I want to pick my number one swimmer out of a million.
- [01:21]
Camille
Nicholas Pusch, which I'm sure I pronounced wrong. An heir of Hermes has filed a similar civil lawsuit against the LVMH CEO Bernard Arnault, alleging that he was unlawfully stripped of Hermes shares worth over 14 billion euros.
- [01:37]
Phillip
So it was a way for LVMH to get 27% of the ownership of Hermes.
- [01:42]
Camille
So Justin Bieber has launched this brand.
- [01:47]
Phillip
First of all, I don't think you should be dropping a few hundred bucks on a carbon printed sneaker.
- [01:51]
Camille
Omnicon has officially acquired the rival holding company ipg, creating the largest advertising entity in history.
- [02:00]
Phillip
Marketing is going to start to see tremendous layoffs in the industry with AI.
- [02:04]
Camille
What a brand.
- [02:05]
Phillip
What a brand.
- [02:05]
Camille
What a brand. What a mighty. Welcome back to another episode of Art of the Brand.
- [02:17]
Phillip
We are in the business of branding. Let's get at her.
- [02:19]
Camille
We've got a ton to cover today. Asap. Rocky and Chanel. Kim Kardashian live shopping the newest word for the Cambridge Dictionary. I feel like we're gonna retouch on the Row controversy. We've got a bunch of stuff to cover, so let's get into it. Who was so the first topic on today's podcast is the A$AP Rocky and Chanel announcement. I did a post on this the day after or even the day of. I think I wrote it when it came out. But in case you missed it, A$AP Rocky has been named the newest house ambassador for Chanel. And the opinion that I've fallen on is that I'm kind of surprised to say this, but Chanel needs ASAP Rocky more than A dollar AP Rocky needs Chanel. And it took me a bunch of research to dig into kind of the answer as to why. Because on its face, when I saw the announcement, I'm like, this doesn't seem to make sense for the Chanel brand. But when I dug into it more, it's actually crazy how big of a fashion icon ASAP Rocky has become and has had, like, real notoriety from the fashion industry.
- [03:27]
Phillip
Well, convince me, because it doesn't seem to be the right fit from my perspective.
- [03:31]
Camille
All right, well, let me break it down. So first and foremost, ASAP Rocky is named the CFDA's most fashion icon of the year. Like, most fashionable person of the year. Which is like, not the CFDA's is like legitimate fashion. Like, it's not. Like it's not purchasable. Like, it's. They're quite stuck up and difficult. And he also, are you sure it's not personable?
- [03:55]
Phillip
You're just saying that because everything is purchasable.
- [03:58]
Camille
The assessment of the cfd, like the brand the CFDA puts out there is that they're not often like, buying celebrity. Like, it's more focused on. Focused on the fashion industry. And he also was the co chair of the Met Gala. So he co chairs the Met Gala, which is considered to be one of the most iconic nights in fashion. He's also been the figurehead that's released Bottega, Veneta and Celine products before it hit market. So he's being provided and gifted products to kind of bring them into, like, cultural relevance through these other brand houses. So basically what Chanel did is, look, people already are looking at you for fashion. These brands were paying you or tapping into you because people see you as a source of fashion inspiration. Like, his fashion has been iconic for years. The way that he's done things, he's dressed himself, it's been. Been really weird outside of the box things. But he is a. He's someone that is in fashion. Like, he's doing his own fashion. He's creating fashion. That Chanel was like, look, we're now just going to associate you with the house and give you an official title because when anybody is looking at you or talks about your looks or your style or your fashion or your super famous wife Rihanna, they're now going to be talking about that in. In conversation with Chanel.
- [05:16]
Phillip
So.
- [05:17]
Camille
So Chanel's basically purchasing relevance so that when anyone talks about ASAP Rocky, they're talking about Chanel.
- [05:22]
Phillip
You know Matthew Blazy?
- [05:24]
Camille
Yeah. That's the new creative director for Chanel.
- [05:25]
Phillip
Yeah, they have a deep history. Rocky and Blasey working together.
- [05:28]
Camille
Right. Matthew Blay worked before at Bottega Veneta and ASAP Rocky did so much for making Bottega Veneta re relevant. Like that's what I'm kind of saying is that Matthew Blazers came from Bottega. Bottega was completely transformed as a house become kind of without making great changes to the brand has become relevant. And a big proponent of that was tapping into A$AP Rocky. So Matthew Blaze is like, look, if I'm gonna come into Chanel and do things differently at Chanel, let's access someone that's making a great change in fashion that nobody owns in fashion.
- [06:02]
Phillip
So will they be using A$AP Rocky to come up with creative ideas or are they just gonna slap Chanel on him?
- [06:07]
Camille
So the angle is that he is becoming a house ambassador. So he is an ambassadorship for the house. So we don't know if that means like he was just in the commercial that launched the maters d'. Art. So the ASAP was used for the like, commercial that launched on socials kind of advertising for the fashion show that happened last week. So I don't know. But I also do think that Matthew is planning to launch a men's line for Chanel. And, and I think that having a male because like, also not for nothing, Chanel doesn't offer anything for men. So it kind of doesn't make sense to have a house ambassador that's a guy.
- [06:44]
Phillip
Yeah. Like Chanel to me should have some men's clothes because it's always had a masculine angle to it.
- [06:49]
Camille
That was like the whole founding story.
- [06:50]
Phillip
But it seems like a male. Like if I was launching Chanel for male, it seems like it should be more like a business look that matches their look. Like not kind of a streetwear look.
- [06:58]
Camille
Yeah, like almost like a like a really like cool vintage, like oversized, like double breasted suit suits.
- [07:04]
Phillip
Yeah, like things that like.
- [07:05]
Camille
Yeah, pinstripes.
- [07:06]
Phillip
Like to me, like that would be.
- [07:08]
Camille
Attractive kind of like New York gangster kind of feel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the, like the More, you know, I mean, like the businessman gangsters. I'm saying like that very like, or.
- [07:16]
Phillip
Even the 50s, you know, 50s look, it's coming back. Yeah, that would be something that I would be drawn to that. That line of clothes if they had it. But asap, Rocky is very successful fella, like, so we'll see.
- [07:29]
Camille
Well, what's interesting is from a music standpoint, a lot of people that are like, big in the music scene call him an industry. So that like, because he's good looking and he's like, fashionable, he's not as talented as other rappers, but he's become this like, fashion icon. Now I can't speak to that because I don't. I don't have like the pulse in the rap world. But that's been what I've heard a lot of people say is that like, he's more of a fashion icon than he is. Call it a. Call it a. As respected of a. Of a musician.
- [08:02]
Phillip
He seems to be dialed in and quite as good. Good instincts on fashion. So hopefully this works for Chanel. I just, on the face of it doesn't make sense. It brings attention to Chanel. I just know they've got like 100 years of a brand there. They have to make sure they don't ruin it by doing something more than 100.
- [08:16]
Camille
But. But I, I think this is the. The brand conversation that I want to have is like, when you look at that fashion show that Matthew Blaze just put on in the New York subway, it was the first time for me that Chanel felt like truly, like, ready to wear in the sense of when I was watching the show, I was like, wow, like, I could really wear that. I could really see myself wearing that. And I was inspired by the clothing they were putting together in a way that although I'm not buying Chanel and I'm not buying Chanel off the Runway, I'm inspired by the way that he was putting clothes together in a way that felt more approachable. So I think it's an interesting. When you look at like, holistically what's happening with Chanel, they're trying to move it away from being this almost as like older woman brand that you kind of aspire your whole life to have and it becoming more of a kind of a like, like a row, you know, like it's. It's relevant. It's not even. The Runway wasn't decked out in crazy logos. The women that were walking on the platform, it was very character driven. Like it was tapping into. On social Media, you were. You're like, the way to win on socials is to connect and create characters. Like, think about every time you show up on content, like you're creating a TV show. And the way that he leaned into fashion was very character focused. Like, you saw like a Diana Vreeland knockoff. You saw like a 70s typist. You saw like a woman who would be in finance right now. Like, it felt very character driven.
- [09:42]
Phillip
Yeah, I enjoyed the show. Actually. The aesthetic of the show was different than a lot of fashion shows I've seen in the past. To me, it was hard to put a word on it, but it wasn't over the top trying to. Trying to make something exclusive. Like, it was very aspirational. Like, and as you say, like, as you saw each model walk, you could kind of picture they had their own story and their outfit fit to them. And I could see people wanting to be the people who were modeling in cool clothes. But you almost got a sense that each of the models was going somewhere cool or somewhere important. Like, they really tapped into that connection between the viewer and what they're trying to show.
- [10:19]
Camille
It was the first time that I saw a Chanel show. And this is gonna sound unapproachable on the face, but, like, I actually was like, I want to wear that. Like, I wasn't thinking about the price point. I wasn't aware of the, you know, like, I found Chanel has always created this world separate from one I live in. Like, it's always one that I'm like, I could only imagine wearing a cruise collection like that and it costing 12. Like, where am I wearing that to? You know, I will never have that, you know, like that. That's always been the feel of it. But this show in line was like, it felt more row coded. Like, you can tell how much quiet luxury is taking over the scene and how people aren't buying clothing like they used to in a now digital first world. So the clothing has to be more wearable than these art pieces.
- [11:05]
Phillip
To me, it reflected from a male perspective. It just seemed like they were well dressed people. I don't know if you know what I mean. Like, when you were looking at the women, it's like, okay, that person is really well dressed.
- [11:13]
Camille
They've got taste.
- [11:14]
Phillip
Yeah, there was a taste element to it. They. That made it like, if I was a female, I'd be like, oh, I would love to wear that outfit to work, or I'd love to be walking in that. It was really grounded in what humans need and it's a move away from this fast fashion of just replacing everything every six months. It's going back to having staple pieces. Like, as a man, you can spend a lot of money on a good suit, and it makes you well dressed. Some of those outfits kind of conveyed that type of investment.
- [11:41]
Camille
I totally agree with you. And the purses, like, the purses were so iconic. They were. They. I just. Every single purse that came down the Runway, minus maybe three, I was like, man, like, I would really love to have that. Like, they were, like, iconic staples. But that's where to wrap up this segment. I don't want to analyze asap, Rocky. Like, in isolation. It's more looking at what the house is putting out there. And you can see when you look at it holistically, Chanel is trying to move away from being this stuffy, fragile brand. They're trying to become more relevant and a part of a larger conversation, which time will tell, to see what that means and what that says.
- [12:23]
Phillip
Yeah. You know what he should do is he should come up with a new. You know, guys would say, oh, you're wearing a Zenga suit, or you're wearing a Tom Ford or a boss suit. Right. There should be like, are you wearing a Chanel suit? But he should almost be part of kind of getting a new. Because suits haven't really changed much in. In decades or centuries. Right. He should kind of come up with a new take on a suit that is distinctly Chanel, that you can say, I'm wearing a Chanel business suit.
- [12:46]
Camille
Well, that's what was interesting, actually, with all the pieces, is that they weren't screaming Chanel. It was, like, very, like, discreet details on the back of the jacket or, like, on one button. So I agree with you. Like, really kind of like making what it means to be Chanel without just screaming the cc. To sum it up, like, my point to this is what's interesting about high fashion in these houses is that every creative director that they put in place almost takes the brand into a new song. So it's interesting because if sales tank, that obviously hurts the business, but it's more tied to the creative director than it is on, like, overall criticism to the house. So when Matthew Blaze has done his residency and they can decide to move back to a version that was more like Karl Lagerfield. And obviously, it's dependent on sales. But what's interesting about this high fashion house world is that these brands kind of evolve and change depending on, like, who's running the house.
- [13:41]
Phillip
Well, that's a danger to the brand if you make the wrong call.
- [13:44]
Camille
Totally. But I don't think this is the wrong call. I think that it's responding to like how the consumer is spending.
- [13:52]
Phillip
Not from the show. The show, I think made Chanel look better, like to more people without being crazy. It wasn't about a circus. It was about saying we tailor to.
- [14:03]
Camille
Well dressed people or like overdone camellia flowers and like it being really old woman. Y. You know what I mean? Like, I still like that feminine like look. And I mean Karl Lagerfield Chanel forever. But in the current landscape, you can't just keep continuing to reinvent what 60 year old women want to wear. Like you have to change the brand.
- [14:20]
Phillip
Yep.
- [14:21]
Camille
Cool. Awesome. All right, so next one is the Kim Kardashian live shopping event. We're gonna talk about Kim Kardashian twice on this. But you know what, let's just tie them together because so this week Kim Kardashian announced two big events. The first was this live shopping event which really should be discussed in isolation because not only was it brilliant, but about time that a big brand tackled live shopping. Because Gary Vee has been like screaming from the rooftops telling brands to be doing it forever. And.
- [14:54]
Phillip
Yes, I have as well.
- [14:55]
Camille
You have as well. No, I know, but a lot of the brands that we work with have been doing it right. We have several brands like that are on retainer that have been doing it for years and have been largely successful. But the problem is when we try to pitch this ideas to bigger brands, they're always looking to be like, well, you know, nobody else is really doing it but Jeffree star. So we're gonna pass.
- [15:12]
Phillip
It's beneath us. It's too much like the shopping channel or it's.
- [15:15]
Camille
We don't want to pimp out our founder because we don't want them to be like a clown or whatever. Right. And so no one has done it. And with OBB Media, basically the media firm that does like everything right now who's owned by the husband of the person who's the CMO of road beauty. So a really connected couple of ratners, they own OBB Media. OBB Media puts this on and it is a full blown variety show. We had Kathy Hilton, we had Kyle Richards, Kris Jenner showed up decked out in diamonds, trying to be like approachable in silk pajamas that I'm sure were like thousands of dollars. We had Snoop Dogg that showed up wearing skims, making cocktails with Kim, talking about, you know, smoking weed. And it was an extremely entertaining 45 minutes and extremely well produced. And I think the difference for the reason why this was so successful is because they treated it like a TV production, like a QVC show.
- [16:13]
Phillip
Do you know how well it did in terms of sales?
- [16:15]
Camille
They haven't released that data. They also haven't released number of people that tuned in. But I would suspect it did extremely well because it collapses the sales funnel into an isolated moment. So typically when you launch a creative campaign on socials, you generate all this buzz and then you hope people like click to the website and then they preview around and they find their size and then they click to check out and then you hope from there they click to buy. Like there's so many steps where people can drop off on a TikTok Live. When she's talking about she had like specific sales for the live. When she talks about like the cami that's on sale for 42.99. In that moment the TikTok shop is showing that product and people can click to buy it like it's instantaneous.
- [16:58]
Phillip
Why I love the idea and kudos to Kim for like, if you're going to build a brand, you have to be bold enough to lead and do it well and not just do it. Other people not wait till other people do it. And why I really enjoy it is we're seeing a move towards the big brands or the names. They can create events that have scarcity. So if you say, hey, we're going to do a live and we're going to have all these guests, well then people will tune in because it's going to be entertaining. People want to see what's going on in Kim's life, see all that. So you kind of create a scarcity event which here's one event, we're going to have some people here tune in. So it makes people put it in their calendar and go to do it. And then essentially this kind of, this long form live shopping is essentially a seduction of sales. Yeah, right. It's like you're talking, Kim is happy. You see them joking. Your endorphins are going because you're having fun. You're saying, oh, that's hilarious. So there's Snoop. Oh, here's this person. And then you're like, and by the way, this is now going on sale. So it's almost like those old variety shows.
- [17:51]
Camille
It totally. Right, totally.
- [17:53]
Phillip
But it's the variety shows with live shopping using tech technology to actually push things that get the consumer in the frame of mind to buy.
- [18:00]
Camille
Yeah, right.
- [18:01]
Phillip
It's a very smart model.
- [18:03]
Camille
And what's cool is they put money into the surprise and delight of it. Like the, like the, her outfit, the production set, the lighting, it's world building. And like, that's what brands are missing, is that a lot of brands heard about live shopping. They put one of their, like poor interns into a corner of their office that's like not properly lit, asking them to like live shop. But they're not investing in any reason for someone to stop the scroll, stop what they're doing and engage with the brand. And like, that's the difference.
- [18:32]
Phillip
The leader has to show up.
- [18:35]
Camille
Yes.
- [18:36]
Phillip
And lead, Lead the mission. Like, get them to do it. And she showed up and did it. It was amazing. But like now it's like a variety show with sales. It's. To me, it would be a very fun thing to do.
- [18:45]
Camille
You know, the takeaway for this is obviously like when you, when you're a founder like Kim Kardashian, you can obviously generate awareness and buzz, but there's a ton of brands that have founders that have followings, that have platforms that thought it was below them to show up and to invest in this format. And when you're spending tens of thousands on ads for holiday season and Black Friday and you can do all of those sales in one moment. If you invest in a high end production, you're an idiot. That Kim Kardashian's the first to do because the floodgates are now gonna open.
- [19:14]
Phillip
Well, you're more profitable because you're spending less. But it's also the difference between a founder brand, where they can attract people as opposed to like Nike. Yeah, like who would host the Nike one? Like maybe some athlete they endorse, but.
- [19:27]
Camille
Well, that's what Nike would do. Right? But here's the thing. Give it two weeks and we're going to see who Nike is going to put in. Because the problem is like, now that Kim has done it, the floodgates are going to open. And guys, if the standard was already investing in production and world building, well, that standard has just raised because, you know, because when the Queen enters into the arena is when people. The standard is now much higher. And the point to this is stop waiting for these people to leverage these tools that the platform is building and putting out there. Like the time is coming in which they're all going to use it. So now that Skims has done it, what can you do that can utilize that feature and allow it to be different? I wish they released the sales numbers because I think that that would just be a larger indicator of, like, get off your ass and start doing this.
- [20:18]
Phillip
You know, like in the past, if you had a new product or something, you would kind of beg to go on a morning show or a late night show, and so you would go on to somebody else's format to be featured so you could talk about your new book, so you could talk about your new product, your new movie or whatever. But now with the digital, you can kind of create your own type of talk show. And we should actually consider doing it when we're launching our book. Like, bring some guests in, have people talk, do a half hour live event, not just. But make something that's actually fun and entertaining, that's live to showcase something that you're launching with your audience.
- [20:51]
Camille
Totally agree. Totally, totally agree. So what's interesting is Kim launches Kim's Miss, which wasn't skimsmas, but it was Kim's Miss, which was interesting and it was really well done branding. She showed up. It was exceptionally done. This is coming off of the backs of, like, several successful campaigns. And then this week she's like, and I'm launching a masterclass. And when I saw the masterclass, I'm like, this is brilliant. This woman is a marketing and branding genius. This is so, like, about time that she showcases her brain over, you know, all the different reasons that you can tear her down along the way. And I bought Masterclass to watch this session so we could talk about it on today's podcast.
- [21:36]
Phillip
Yeah, well, I feel then I'm going to be a little less kind to Kim on this segment of the.
- [21:41]
Camille
Yeah, we should.
- [21:42]
Phillip
Of the Kim's analysis.
- [21:43]
Camille
We are honest. Yeah, the Kim's analysis. Not the Kim's analysis, but the Kim's analysis.
- [21:49]
Phillip
It actually shows you how masterclass can make money if you bring the right person in, you sign up for.
- [21:55]
Camille
Well, it's brilliant. It shows you how much money you can make when you just bring in the right people. But.
- [22:00]
Phillip
Well, we watched it last night. Tell it that. Why don't you start off?
- [22:03]
Camille
It was so frustratingly disappointing because I do think that Kim is extremely tactical and intelligent. That entire family are true experts at positioning, messaging and branding. However, this billionaire mogul needs to have better people around her because the entire script and all of the takeaway notes were like, first past chatgpt.
- [22:28]
Phillip
You just took one of my points.
- [22:29]
Camille
But yes, like, literally first past chatgpt. Like, they didn't even. They didn't even pretend to take out the obvious clues that ChatGPT wrote it. They didn't even use Claude Premium. They used, like, ChatGPT Tier 2. Like, it was.
- [22:43]
Phillip
So it's not this. It's that, like, if you guys watch the masterclass, put the. Put the captions on, and then you can actually see almost if you've done anything with AI.
- [22:54]
Camille
No, I. I don't even think it's that complicated like it does. She can't even flow reading some of the sentences because it's literally a robot speak, like it's a robot script.
- [23:04]
Phillip
So she comes in, it's a good idea. She agrees to do it, but then she has people who work for her. And you know, when. When you're a founder, just like if you're a general or if you're somebody who's earned their way to the top, you have people around you who are supposed to do the fucking work to make you look good. And there are shortcuts. And the person who put together this script took shortcuts. I would. I would go so far as to say the person who put the script together for this masterclass for Kim to read should be fired.
- [23:29]
Camille
Major.
- [23:29]
Phillip
And I don't want to ruin your life, your mortgage payments, but you don't put it in chatgpt. And. And she's a billionaire. She's super successful. Somebody with amazing creative talent in terms of writing and who understands her should have written that. And she probably should have spent a little bit more time with that person because it's her brand. Because when I watched that before watching the masterclass, I thought she was. She seemed smarter to me than after the masterclass. And so I think it actually kind of. Her staff indirectly allowed her brand to go down. And she should have sat down and said, this is not good enough. This is not how I talk. This is nonsense. Like, all of the effort was put into making her look good and having all of these cuts. And they made it like a music video, but it was very, very thin on content. And I'll get to that later. But I think masterclasses lost the plot as well. But just first and foremost, Kim, the person who is responsible for this script, should be fired.
- [24:25]
Camille
It was so substance lacking. Like, it wasn't a masterclass. It was a YouTube series of her providing light insight as to how she's made kind of business decisions. Even what I was looking for from her, to dig into it further and talk. It was just so surface level. But on top of that, so there's 10 commandments. I mean, commandments, commandments, great messaging. But the 10th commandment which you wait 75 minutes to get to is do as I say. And she basically said, like. Basically wraps up by saying, like, we want people to watch. They tell people to watch this because do as I say. And the 10th Commandment is not one of really that you can. After listening to her nine others. It's not the coup de grace. You know, it doesn't sum everything up and be like, this woman is a boss.
- [25:18]
Phillip
I would even go so far as one of her staff said, knowing what you know about Kim Kardashian, come up with 10 commandments. It seems like ChatGPT wrote them because it was vapid and not interesting. It was not a masterclass. It was like a fucking a coffee time talk. Like there was nothing about it that was actually that intellectual.
- [25:38]
Camille
It wasn't tactical business advice. It wasn't like, this is. Even the takeaway notes were so, you know, I struggle with this because I produce curriculum, you know, for business owners. And like, I was like thinking about the planner, I was thinking about the course, and I'm like, man, like, my stuff is a hundred x better than this. I've taken four extra sentences to explain a concept like point of view. And this is someone that's generated billions of dollars who truly understands this stuff and isn't taking the time to explain it in a way that makes sense.
- [26:11]
Phillip
Because it was so script driven. I don't feel like it was authentic. Kim.
- [26:16]
Camille
No.
- [26:17]
Phillip
And I think what the masterclass has done, that's a disservice to us. Who. Who? I. I took a master class on poker with Danielle Negran. Who. I butchered his name.
- [26:26]
Camille
It was, I mean, it's on brand for us to do that.
- [26:28]
Phillip
But it was a spectacular, like eight, eight lesson series on how to get good at poker. And it's responsible for me actually becoming much, much better at poker. That Kardashian masterclass really won't make anybody any better. It's like reading a four page comic book, you know what I mean? In terms of learning something, there's there. It is not a master class.
- [26:48]
Camille
What's actually interesting is I had masterclass back in the day and I actually like allowed the subscription to lapse because the learning was actually too big of a commitment to it being like more digestible. The problem is I feel like they've now gone too far the other way. The, like, the random summary take notes like that were so chat. They were, you know, when ChatGPT writes and like, you actually have to work hard to figure out what it's Saying like, the words don't have meaning. Like, that's how bad the summary chapters were that were like, take note. It's like, don't do this, do that. The best thing is this. It's not this, it's that. And I'm sitting here and I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. Like, you actually have got to be kidding me that somebody has an. And they're launching it right before Christmas, which is Masterclass is Super Bowl. It's such an easy gift for, for people to give someone that's starting a business or working in business.
- [27:42]
Phillip
If you want to give somebody a gift to understand this, it's not the masterclass of Kim Kardashian. It's Camille's Moore's social media masterclass. And I'm not saying that because I have a personal investment in you and the product. It's just that product has a thousand times more detail and actionable things than this thing.
- [28:02]
Camille
Work.
- [28:03]
Phillip
It has work. Whereas this thing is just, it's. It's actually insulting. It's like somebody just wants to watch her talk. Like those segments, if you guys watch it, watch the segments where she's. She's helping out a couple small business people. It pissed me off at how like, vapid is. She's like swiping through their Instagram. Oh, you got to do this. Like, there was something to it, but it didn't sound like anything a second year marketing, you know, graduate wouldn't.
- [28:29]
Camille
The problem, the problem with that aspect is. I'm glad you brought that up. The problem with the, these, like, students that they brought in to broke it up. Kim has no brand in teaching. Like, she has no brand in, like, approachability and like, understanding how to give feedback. So the problem is that she wasn't anything during that segment. Like, she wasn't.
- [28:50]
Phillip
Like, you were skipping through it. I'm like, no, slow down. We have to kind of. We want to understand, like, she wasn't.
- [28:56]
Camille
Because she's not. When you're at that level, you're not in customer service anymore. You know what I mean? Like, you're not like a likable. Where you can like, shape what you're saying. Like, you just get to the point because you're tight on time. And it's not the best. It's not the framework that she should be in. Like, she should be in something like talking to someone who's. They basically pulled these, like, small, like, small businesses to one of the girls, she has this bakery in downtown la. Only her is running the entire shop. And her segment is her criticizing that she doesn't have a social media employee and somebody else that's running the front. And Kim's. Kim's advice is, well, you know what if you need to basically get to having three employees, so you should just hire three employees tomorrow. And we're like, well, you're not talking about scaling and operations. Have we discussed how much money she's making? Where are her margins? Can she afford to do well? 3. Or rather talk about creating content while you're running the shop so that you can generate hype. Like, it just. It was lacking any form of strategy.
- [29:54]
Phillip
I'm led to wonder if it was all scripted because even when she was sitting with them, because I disagree with you a little bit. If you become very successful and you're wise, you can sit down with somebody and give them something useful. Like if. If you or I sit down with a new business owner, like, we give them some real stuff very quickly. But the way that, that those segments were going, like, she wasn't giving them anything.
- [30:16]
Camille
That's not her brand, though.
- [30:17]
Phillip
Like, but it doesn't matter her brand. If you're wise and successful and you run a masterclass, you can sit down with a business owner and in half an hour, you know, in 10 minutes, give them something that changes their business. Like, everybody wants that mentor who's been through it and give it. She didn't give them anything useful. It was, it was. It looked like she was told to swipe and she was reading. Like, it just. It diminished her brand or exposed her as not what I thought she was because she wasn't able to look at that business and intuitively give that person some insight that helps their business, maybe.
- [30:46]
Camille
I mean, she's a socialite elite. Like, she's, she's fair enough. You know, like, she's. Everything that she's done has been leveraging status and continuing to keep herself in the limelight. And I think what most. What shocks most industry people is that everyone say they're actually lovely to work with because the idea is that they're dislikable or disagreeable people. So because, like, for example, like Martha Stewart's masterclass, she doesn't have. They're not doing that to Martha Stewart. Having her, like, around these, like, regulars, like, nothing about Kim's brand other than she does this, like, advocacy work for, like, juveniles in, like, the, in the system. But like, that to me, makes more sense than giving business owners advice.
- [31:23]
Phillip
But masterclass comes from. If you're a master you usually have students, like, and that's where most people go. Like, once they make their money, they're super successful. They become a master. Generally, they want to teach or share their wisdom to help raise all boats. And I didn't get from her that she was capable of developing students or.
- [31:41]
Camille
I don't think you're wrong, but we're arguing based off of me saying that's not her brand. And then the way that it came out on the show is that it didn't work. So I'm saying, like, masterclass. They had, like, they even did a huge launch for this in New York City. It was like this oculus installation. And masterclass isn't usually doing that for, like, they know that this is a big thing at Christmas, and it's such a mess. For analyzing her brand, what she's accomplished and what she can do, Like, I would rather her do, like an all hands meeting with her skins team, seeing how she approaches leadership, how she organizes her day. She talking about what it's like for her running a business in this crazy part of her life. Like, balance, like, understanding how to prioritize. That's what's the most interesting about her because I bought it being like, look, I'm. I already get brand. Like, I don't. You don't learn basics, branding basics from Kim. You are someone that you understand it. You get it. I'm looking for that second and third level up. Like, how does she time manage, how does she prep, how does she go into things? Like, that would have been worth so much more money for her brand.
- [32:41]
Phillip
Most masters come back to first principles. And it's good once you hear it from, you know, a master, they remind you that you have to do things a certain way. But, you know, as a final, like, I want to take a shot at masterclass, and I don't know who's running that organization if it's gone public, but it's got people now who are producing content. That's garbage.
- [32:59]
Camille
Yeah.
- [32:59]
Phillip
It's got some people in there that are more about the smoke and mirrors and tons of cuts and cute stuff, like people adjusting her hair and spraying her hair. Like, if you buy the Kim Kardashian masterclass, you want to learn how to do what she did. I don't need to see her getting her hair sprayed unless.
- [33:16]
Camille
Unless she's showing me, which is what she's kind of famous for, is that she's constantly, like, there's no extra time. So, like, while she's doing those things, like, how does she have her assistant run through her day. How does she do her research? How does she like those?
- [33:28]
Phillip
But that's. That's a masterclass on being busy. Right, but what was her masterclass on the commandments?
- [33:34]
Camille
The business. Her 10 business principles. And then the last one is do as I say. It's just like, come on.
- [33:39]
Phillip
They weren't business principles either, but I like that. I liked her focus on product. I think what she's realized over her career is that you have to have good product. And I think that was a good takeaway. You could tell that what she's learned is having great product is important.
- [33:52]
Camille
Literally, the four pillars that I talk about, she said them in a roundabout way. It's like, have a great story. Have a personal brand, have credibility, have trust. Have a story that people can buy into. Have a great product. But then you have to focus on experience. Right? You have to focus on, like, what does it feel like when you walk into the store? What is it like? How are all those intangibles, the packaging? Like, she was even one of her things was like, focus on the packaging first.
- [34:14]
Phillip
Focus on the packaging first, first, first.
- [34:17]
Camille
The first thing is, but you still need a good experience. And then the fourth thing is consistency. And that's what she was talking about too, is. And I'm sitting here and I'm like, kim, you know, I almost feel like.
- [34:26]
Phillip
The person who put it in ChatGPT had bought your social media map.
- [34:29]
Camille
It could have been better. Like, if you're gonna rip me off, I do a better job.
- [34:31]
Phillip
The one thing I did like was her talk about making the decision to switch from kimono to skims.
- [34:36]
Camille
Yeah.
- [34:37]
Phillip
You know what I mean? Like, that's a tough thing to do. And I would have loved to dug a little deeper into what was going on there, but everything seems so curated. It just didn't seem authentic.
- [34:46]
Camille
That's actually my biggest takeaway, too, that I. For how to justify in my brain that it was a good use of time was when she talks about how much backlash she got for kimono and how she, like, acquiesced. Like, she didn't. She realized that it wasn't the right move and she was gonna be constantly faced with it and that she, like, decided to take a step back and to change the business name, because I struggle with. It's very hard to find those case studies of when to listen to the cancel culture, you know, and, like, when to kind of step away and to decide, like, when does it make sense to listen to the noise versus versus the signal because in the end I do think it's the best decision she ever made. Because Skims, although is Kim with an S on the end of each side feels less only about her than it does a part of her. Whereas Kimono is a bit more like Kim Swag.
- [35:36]
Phillip
But that's what I was gonna say is I'm not sure it was the right decision to cancel it because of cancel culture. Right. Just because Japan, like in Kyoto didn't like it sounded like a kimono. I think that a kimono was.
- [35:47]
Camille
It was kimono, it was one for one kimono.
- [35:49]
Phillip
But I just didn't think it. I think the name Kimono kind of limited the brand into kind of sleepwear. But Skims has more universal appeal and it was shorter, it was tighter. So I think it was the right decision to change the name. Not because of cancel culture, just cause Skims is a better name.
- [36:05]
Camille
And to wrap up, it actually was interesting sitting there with Philip because he gets annoyed that we talk about Hailey and Justin and Kim a lot. And I think that you actually finally got it as to why it's such a big brand is because she really tapped into where there was a blue, blue ocean.
- [36:20]
Phillip
Yeah. With the shapewear.
- [36:21]
Camille
The next thing I want to talk about is. So the Cambridge Dictionary 2025 Word of the year is parasocial relationship. And basically the term describes a one sided psychological connection where a person feels they know a media figure, celebrity, influencer or character intimately, even though the figure doesn't know them back. And that this relationship is creating an illusion of friendship or intimacy that's connected. Common with TV and social media. These people who aren't traditionally famous but definitely have these big platforms have these fans that are coming up to them and are basically like trauma dumping. Like they're like coming up to them and they're like telling them like what's going on in their life and like downloading onto them because they feel like they know them so intimately. And I wanted to get your thoughts on this, that this is like the word of the year.
- [37:11]
Phillip
Well, I think it's capturing something that that's going on like parasocial. Obviously it's, it's taking something from parasite, which means one person is taking more than the other. It's not, it's not symbiotic. So parasocial means it's not surprising because our society has kind of is moving towards larger collections of broken people who don't have identities, resilience or and they're just living through other people. So it's Not. It's not more surprising than when somebody would say with a celebrity, when they think a celebrity should know them. But it's. It's easier to have these relationships, parasocial relationships, spark up all over the place.
- [37:48]
Camille
Well, especially when we're seeing, like, more of their lives, right? Like, people are literally living their lives through their phone. Like, I watch a lot of these, like, lifestyle influencers and like, just imagine, like, how much of their life is spent, like, obsessing over capturing each detail so they can put it on social media. And then it's to be on the receiving end of, like, watching someone. You know, there's, like, you know, I follow Bridget on Instagram and she's been documenting her entire. She found out she had cancer and, like, from the day she found out to, like, going through crazy chemo and, like, she's documenting all of it. So it's kind of crazy because when would you ever see four times a day, you know, someone like, documenting the highs and lows of their life, and then what else do you say to them when you see them?
- [38:31]
Phillip
Those people are trading privacy for celebrity, and there's a price that comes with that. But it's almost more reflective of society how more and more, like, humans are animals, right? And so they. They look for things to pattern on, they look for things to follow.
- [38:46]
Camille
And.
- [38:46]
Phillip
But there's a lot of despair in the world in that a lot of people can't live the lifestyle that they think they should be living. And so they're just, you know, they're. They're projecting themselves onto the life of somebody else. They're watching it, and that's how they feel like they're getting that lifestyle. Right? And so this kind of despair, spare economy is making people attached to influencers because it makes these people who can't live that way feel that they have access to it. But by watching everything they're doing, they feel they have access to a lifestyle they couldn't get. And it. But it's also creating psychological dependencies and illness that we have to be aware of because there's going to be more and more people who are hurt by stalkers as this progresses.
- [39:24]
Camille
Yeah, totally.
- [39:24]
Phillip
You know, so you have to be careful if you are somebody who's putting yourself out there to have stalking, security measures in place, to have better contracts, and to have somebody who can sit down with you and say, hey, this probably not the best thing to do. Like, I think you need a little bit more strategy where the world is going.
- [39:37]
Camille
Well, it's interesting because I. Even when I think about like the Roe scandal, you know, and that conversation that we had on Ahuja, and you know, it sucks because in order to get more detail, you have to pay for her substack, which is okay. But then outside of that, when I think about it, it would be like, based on this being the term of the year, it'd be interesting to have a perspective from the side of the row. Like, how weird is it to be launching and owning a brand where it's now becoming people's identity and you're in this position where you have to be seen as the bad guy to kind of like distance yourself for how this person wants to show up. And I'm sure that there's good people on both sides. And this woman who's done a lot of good things for the brand and generated for the brand a lot of money, feels very hurt. And that's why this word is so interesting, this parasocial relationship where it's like, is she wrong for feeling like she's devoted so much to a brand? But then the question is, what does the brand owe you? And we're in a breaking news environment. These concepts are so new. And then people's identity becomes your brand. How do you navigate that?
- [40:51]
Phillip
Well, once people get accustomed to seeing your world every day. Right. They develop a dependency on you for their own joy. Right. Like you, that person is actually allowing them to live something. But the question becomes, how do you turn it off? Because in parasitic relationships, usually you have to rip the parasite off.
- [41:09]
Camille
Yeah, Right.
- [41:09]
Phillip
It requires surgery or deworming or a knife. Right. So once you have parasitic relationships, like you can take their money for a certain amount of time, but if you want to turn off the privacy element, you're going to get some serious backlash. You have to be very careful if you're going down that road.
- [41:24]
Camille
Yeah, it's really complicated. I'd love to hear your guys thoughts on that. Okay, so the next is so, so intelligent. Diet Coke has come out with a new campaign where they're calling Diet Coke the Fridge Sea Cigarette. And it's a viral trend that shows people dramatically opening a cold drink from the fridge like it's a cigarette ritual, but instead of nicotine, it's Diet Coke therapy. I think this really showcases the power of messaging and why micro scripts are so powerful.
- [41:57]
Phillip
To me, it's, it's brilliant. Kudos to whoever came up with that concept. Because sin cells.
- [42:02]
Camille
Yeah, right.
- [42:03]
Phillip
Sex, drugs, rock and roll, cigarettes are kind of an old version of a sin that you shouldn't be doing a treat, right? But, but also a sin. Like, if you do it, you're. You're not responsible. It's bad for you. It's. But all of the movie things show people getting so satisfied by taking that draw of the smoke after sex or after a meeting or something, or they're.
- [42:26]
Camille
About to have a stressful conversation, right?
- [42:29]
Phillip
And it's like you're indulging yourself. And so for Diet Coke to have the courage to say, hey, we're the cigarette in the fridge, it's just brilliant because immediately people think, oh, I'm not supposed to have it. But it's so satisfying to the people who do do it. And now the Diet Coke gets the projection of something that gives you that similar feel of indulgence without it being as, as fatal as a cigarette.
- [42:51]
Camille
To me, there's two things to analyze. The first is microscripts. So Bill Schley wrote a fantastic book. It should be called microscripts. It's longer than that. But the idea is that Bill Schley. The idea is that microscripts are three to five words typically, but they derive a lot of meaning. So it's not like a tagline. It's something that is, like, packed with meaning and instant point of view positioning. So that's what makes the fridge cigarette so powerful, is that it's not a tagline, it's a microscript because you instantly understand so much more through simple language. And they're the hardest to develop, but they carry the most amount of weight for your brand. So brands should have a point of view, perspective, and a microscript. And other great examples are like Buckley's, it tastes awful, but it works. Or Bounty, the quicker picker upper right. Like, you instantly get what they are. And Donald Trump uses microscripts a lot. He uses language like Sleepy Joe Biden and Crooked Hillary that they're simple phrases, but they derive so much simple meaning.
- [43:59]
Phillip
No, whether you like it or not, like, you want, you want things to, to catch and to hit. And so you have to have. You can spend a lot of time with good creative to come up with the right microscript.
- [44:08]
Camille
But the reason why I also love this too is this to me is like Mad Men branding. Like, this is going back to like, it's toasted. Like they're, they're letting go of wanting to be safe and wanting to be like uber part positive and saying, this is like a cigarette, right?
- [44:21]
Phillip
But it also makes sense because in the past when you saw Coke commercials, right, you'd see somebody take it out of a cold cooler when they're hot and kind of rub the can on their face. It's the same kind of indulgence that cigarettes have. But because cigarettes are almost banned in some level now, it's smart to align yourself with something that's forbidden.
- [44:40]
Camille
Yes, but think about all of the bureaucrats that are like, the worst thing that we can do is a cigarette.
- [44:46]
Phillip
That's what I mean.
- [44:47]
Camille
And this is where branding is an art and a science. Right? Like there's an art to it and there's the complexity of the scientific element. Right. Like, yes, cigarette is bad, but when you call Diet Coke a fridge cigarette, your customer isn't stupid and they're able to make an association that it is a safer vice because they're choosing not to smoke.
- [45:09]
Phillip
I'm glad you brought it up. Because when they call it a fridge cigarette, the kind of the non leaders in the organization, the non courageous people are like, oh my God, cigarettes make your teeth yellow. They do this. They do this. But this is why branding really needs to focus more on leadership. Because to come up with campaigns like this, the creative people can come up with it. But in order to get them across the line, you need a leader. And a leader is prepared to take a risk. A leader is prepared to go where somebody else hasn't gone. That's the way you build a brand. And we don't really spend enough time talking about how you need the skills of leadership in order to build a brand. And somebody in Diet Coke, you know, had the character and courage to make this ad campaign get across the line. When as you say, there's, there's probably 40 people peeing their pants about this.
- [45:53]
Camille
But what a great campaign and how much money they've made because there's so many people that want that daily treat that aren't, that aren't never going to turn to a cigarette. But the association makes simple sense. That's why we like, we talk about it ad nauseam. But like controversy sells. And it's why you have to be prepared to do something that is shocking and like generate attention. And you know, I did a post a few weeks ago on Shay Mitchell launching the kids skincare face mask. And how many angry when she launched this product, it was like 90% negative or 100% negative on the Internet. Like people were ripping her being like, how dare you launch skincare for kids? You're just trying to like abused children. This is capitalizing on abuse.
- [46:39]
Phillip
Same with Kim in the masterclass when she talked about the pregnancy bra too.
- [46:42]
Camille
Oh, my God, the maternity stuff. People are ripping it. And what's interesting is I've spoken to so many moms that are struggling with their daughter already having a demand for makeup, dying to buy it, and would love to be able to purchase an alternative that appeases. Mom, mom, mom, can I have it? Sandra has it at school. Like, I need to do it. Why can everyone do it and I can't? Oh, my God. I just want baby.
- [47:05]
Phillip
Okay, stop that.
- [47:06]
Camille
No, but I'm sorry. It was. I feel like I was pretty good and. But having like all these clean products and that's where it's like lean into where. Because they're never going to buy your shit in the first place and they're giving you free earned media value.
- [47:19]
Phillip
No, the first mover advantage into that space works. But, you know, I'm doing more and more in consumer behavior and behavioral science these days. When you say it's the fridge cigarette, like, you have to. When you're trying to sell something, you have to think about what your consumer thinks before they buy or they click buy. And if somebody sees fridge cigarette and gets that sense that it's a forbidden treat, when they're in the grocery store and they see Diet Coke, if they've seen that message, they're gonna think, ah, this is a forbidden treat. I'm gonna indulge myself. And it allows them to step across the line to make that purchase that they wouldn't make before because they think they're doing something kind of forbidden and dangerous. Even though it's not dangerous to drink Diet Coke literally at all, other than aspartame.
- [47:59]
Camille
Well, I mean, it's not good for you. But yeah, like, it's. I mean, like, it's not like smoking a cigarette, you know, But I mean, it's.
- [48:05]
Phillip
You have to think of how do you influence human behavior, consumer behavior, to buy that type of campaign works beautifully.
- [48:11]
Camille
I totally agree. Well, and on the topic of good creative, I want to talk about this. It's like, so this company called pickyourbaby.com has had this viral set of ads that are taking off on the Internet. And people are saying that this is like another episode of Black Mirror came to life in the real world. And the headline is, have your best baby period. Have your best baby period. And the website is pickyourbaby.com. so it's the assumption of, like, you're selecting your genetics eugenics of your baby and you're picking the best baby. And this is obviously like going crazy on the Internet. So let's dig into that.
- [48:54]
Phillip
It's a little intellectual. So first of all, do you own your DNA? If you own your own DNA, shouldn't you be able to pick? Unless there's a religious thing like when a male contributes their part to creating a baby. Let's say there's a million swimmers that go out. But I guarantee you, you could rank those swimmers from one to a million in terms of what's the best DNA package in there. So why would you leave it to chance unless you think God is deciding? Wouldn't you want to be able to pick your best DNA to make your child? Like, to me, it makes perfect sense if technology allows us to do it. Why wouldn't I want to pick my number one swimmer out of a million rather than randomly? There could be, there could be a roadblock on the way up to the egg that cuts off all your best swimmers and then these slow guys get up there like you never know what you're going to get. So it appeals directly to people who want to have the best lifestyle, the best product. And you know, the controversy I think is just helping the business.
- [49:49]
Camille
It's what's wrong with the world and it's what's taking business owners off the prize of why they're doing this and how to make the most effectiveness with their dollars. Because when you are a genetic based company that's offering the ability to choose the genetics, the best campaign to go forward with is pick your best baby. Because not only is it gonna piss the people off that don't wanna do that, but it's gonna speak directly to the people who do. And in the middle of that, create so much controversy and noise online. I would have never seen that subway billboard if not for that simple microscript statement.
- [50:32]
Phillip
If it was just a vanilla kind of, hey, we can help you with.
- [50:35]
Camille
Your thinking about having children. Start the picking process with us. It would have absolutely made no impact whatsoever. And that's the problem that people face is if you're in the business of, of burning cash, keep doing vanilla messaging. But when you want to win, you have to stand out and piss people off.
- [50:54]
Phillip
No. And there is a vocal minority or majority out there that wants to attack anything that's seen as elitism or best. Right? It's like, but humans aspire to raise their social status and to be better and to be the best. So it's, it's, it's not intelligent not to double down on elitism if your product is the best, if what you're doing. And so they are Just there. They want the haters to attack them. Because the people who want to have the best baby will not be discouraged by haters who don't want to have kids anymore and think the world is going to fall apart. Like, it's not going to discourage them. Hatred.
- [51:33]
Camille
Well, the other issue too is. So I was reading an article and the whole article was about how medical spas are in such a difficult position because they're all claiming the same thing. Like, they're all saying natural results. They're all posting the same content. The message is the same. So if everything is the same in an industry, like, how do people sort through it and whether or not you agree with it? I will be going through the IVF selection process. And when I saw this ad, I'm like, shit, I'm gonna check out this website. I went to the website, I checked it out because it's spoke to me. It spoke to the journey that I want to go through. And at the end of the day, when you're trying to speak to your. That's why I talk so much about, understand your customer, what are their problems, what are their pain points, what are.
- [52:18]
Phillip
Their shares, their shared values of these people are they want to have the best job that they can have.
- [52:23]
Camille
You can't speak to everybody. And when you're trying to speak to everybody, you speak to nobody. Because boring doesn't cut through.
- [52:30]
Phillip
Great Eye campaign. I just want to take a moment here because Camille's not that comfortable talking about it, but we're. We're coming up with a social media brand Master Planner. Now, Camille's put tons of work into this thing, and honestly, page for page, it is the most valuable thing I've ever seen. And I've read every book there is out there in the marketing and branding world. This book by itself has more content than everything in that section of the bookstore. It's going to be coming out in the new year, so get yourself on the waiting list. Reach out to Camille and look forward to this because this thing is going to change your business. It'd be a great Christmas gift if it was available before Christmas, but you can start to pre order. If you want a Christmas gift, buy her Social media Masterclass, which is an online course that is full of incredibly valuable information. Homework, projects, case studies that will transform your business in 2026. Remember to like, follow and share. We're the number one branding podcast in the world. Help us keep growing. Now back to the podcast.
- [53:24]
Camille
Wow, thanks for that. Plug Phillips. Okay, so let's now talk About Hermes versus lvmh. There's a really interesting story that is going back sometime. So this isn't a new story, but the story has taken a new turn. So Hermes is probably the last, like, true luxury privately owned company that's owned by the original family. And lvmh, which I don't think this is a shock to anyone, is a publicly traded conglomerate that owns the majority of the fashion houses. And it's kind of the reason for the why luxury branding is in the toilet is because it's just, it's owned by an oligarchy. So like, they're just copying and pasting the same strategy and like maximizing these names to generate profit. Now what happened is Nicholas Pusch, which I'm sure I pronounced wrong, an heir of Hermes has filed a civil lawsuit against the LVMH CEO Bernard Arnault, alleging that he was unlawfully stripped of Hermes shares worth over 14 billion euros. It's a real life succession drama that is reviving the bad blood from when LVMH tried a hostile takeover of Hermes a decade ago. So what happened is Nicholas Push has this wealth manager who manages all of his wealth and all of his assets and is secretly siphoning off his shirt shares to the LVMH CEO Bernard Arnault. And this wealth manager dies and this owner, Nicholas Poosch, is like, holy shit, $14 billion of my assets are gone and are in the pockets of the CEO of lvmh. And the reason why this is controversial is there's a very large legal difference between fraud and professional incompetence. Negligence. Negligence. When you professionally make a mistake negligently without actus rea or mens rea. So you just make a business mistake.
- [55:26]
Phillip
All right. I know you love Legally Blonde. Actus reus is the act of a crime. Mens rea is the intent.
- [55:32]
Camille
Yes, it was missing.
- [55:34]
Phillip
So assault is non consensual application of physical force. That's the act, the mens rea. The intent is that I intended to do it. So if I kind of reach back here, if I reach back here grabbing something and I hit you, I, I've committed the act of assault. But I, I didn't intend to insult you. So usually assault you. So usually you need both the intent and the act, just from a legal perspective.
- [55:56]
Camille
And the Swiss court said that it was negligent, like you should have been on top of your shit. No, they're now going to the French court. They were in the Swiss court.
- [56:03]
Phillip
The Swiss court said the French court did define because, and I can explain this to you. So French law in privately held corporations, if you have more than a 5% holding in a private corporation, you have to disclose it. What's relevant is LVMH is a giant public corporation, so people can buy and sell shares. And it's not necessarily controlled or tried.
- [56:25]
Camille
In the public market.
- [56:26]
Phillip
Right. In the public, on the stock exchange. Hermes is like one of the last bastions of a family owned private luxury that's trying to protect its brand. And what LVMH had done is they had bought, you know, 10 or 15 years ago, 4.9% of Hermes shares. So they didn't have to disclose to Hermes that they had an ownership possession. If you had 5%, they would have to disclose. But they wanted more control because the more shares you have, the more influence you have on board of directors, on direction. So then they went with banks, they did deals with banks and they did like a swap where the bank would owe them money and the bank would buy the shares. The three banks, they would disclose it, but they actually had a contractual obligation to give it to LVMH. So it was a way for LVMH to get 27% of the ownership of Hermes, which is their competitor. Right. So this was a complete breach of the laws in France. And LVMH got the highest fine in the history of France for this kind of fraudulent, sketchy train trading because it was a competitor. That makes it more juicy is that they were buying their competitor. And it's relevant to know, like Elon was talking about this, whoever owns shares in a company can, can influence who the board of directors are and then can influence policies and all that. And there's a few companies, there's a few organizations in the world that represent the big mutual funds and they have disproportionate influence on the board of directors of a lot of companies because they're all being controlled by these, these organizations. And this is what Hermes was worried about. And so after that was done, LVMH ended up disposing themselves of all of those shares, apologizing and moving forward. But then this guy comes up later and finds out that some of his shares, he had somebody managing his finances. And these rich people usually have a family office. But one of his advisors had secretly been selling some of his stake because it's controlled a lot by H1, which is the first family group had been selling some of his stake to LVMH, which means that they were actually over 27%. But he didn't know it because buddy wasn't letting him know what happened.
- [58:29]
Camille
Wasn't his clothing. Yeah.
- [58:30]
Phillip
So as. As soon as he gets this, he's like, this is crap. Maybe I should have monitored my annual returns more. But it was done without. And as soon as they started launching the civil suit and potential criminal lawsuit, that financial advisor commits suicide. It looks like something from succession or some conspiracy that somebody didn't want this guy talking to the authorities. And he either committed suicide because his gig was up or because. Or somebody didn't want him talking because this is big news in the world of luxury brands.
- [59:00]
Camille
So where do you think that this goes? Rogue lawyer?
- [59:02]
Phillip
Well, it depends on how they move. How this. What's his name again? Peter.
- [59:06]
Camille
Nicholas.
- [59:07]
Phillip
Nicholas Pooch. It depends on what his legal team is doing. Like, I'm not as familiar with European law, but now that this person is not able to testify anymore, you can run into kind of a dead end in terms of showing where the fraud was going. So it's very, very sketchy. I think at some level he'll get them back. LVMH will probably return the shares to him at some level to avoid this. But there is something sketchy going on there for sure. But one thing is your brand. You need to protect your brand through control of your corporation. And so you have to be. You have to put some defensive mechanisms in place to not allow your. A bigger corporation to come in and secretly do a quiet takeover without your knowledge.
- [59:50]
Camille
You know, like, imagine finding that out, just being like, hey, you just. You've lost $14 billion and it's going to the competitor. Makes me want to call my accountant. Although. Although those numbers aren't on the table. I just. Man, this is why they need to like, improve the schooling system because, like, you don't even know how to protect yourself with the way that it's all. It's designed to all be super complicated and confusing. I mean, another episode. We should talk about your hostel board takeover. But that's not a Today thing. Just for, like, how fascinating and complicated this shit is. Okay, so next I want to talk about Justin Bieber. It wouldn't be a hit episode if we didn't talk about the Biebs. So Justin Bieber has launched this. This brand. He had a brand before it was called Mad Happy. We're done with Mad Happy and now we're launching this brand be called Skylark. And what's interesting is it called Drew House. Oh, sorry, Drew House. It collabed with Mad Happy. So the last brand was called Drew House.
- [60:45]
Phillip
And please note, listeners, that I corrected Camille on a beaver point.
- [60:49]
Camille
I know. You know what, though? Like, he just. He's less cute. So he's less. We're less. It's less relevant now to the Camille world. Anyways, he. He launches this brand called Skylark, and it's kind of a Yeezy ripoff. You know, he's launching these slides, but what's interesting is he launches them first. So. Right. So similar, but like, also like totally like Japanese kind of astrotech, you know, North Facey. Anyways, so he launches this and then also like, look at the glasses down here. Like kind of gentle monster. Yeah. So he launches his brand, but he launches it first in Japan. He does that actual physical pop up in Shibuya, and the lines were insane. Like, insane response. And he launches it in Japan before he launches it in the US and he also does a jacket collab. Like, Haley designed the jacket that they were also selling to in the store. So the two of them were in Japan and they documented it, and Haley is there designing a piece. And it's interesting because I have criticism that I'd like to gossip with you about, but then I also think some praise in how he did it as a real life activation. First, where do you want to start? Where do you think? What are your thoughts?
- [62:08]
Phillip
First of all, I don't think you should be dropping a few hundred bucks on a carbon printed sneaker.
- [62:12]
Camille
I think they're like 120 bucks box or something. 140. Like, they're.
- [62:15]
Phillip
But they're essentially, they're not made in a plant. They're just printed in one piece through these new carbon printers. So it's interesting where, you know, they probably cost $3 in material and then.
- [62:27]
Camille
Well, they have to at 140 price point. You know, I mean, like, you would expect that because you can't sell them for 86 bucks. So you can tell that he couldn't.
- [62:33]
Phillip
Do anything more than, like, people, like, they seem cool. Like, they're a little bit like the old Yeezys, but they're just carbon printed. I like the idea. It actually kind of is similar to what Bella Beauty did in. In Bogota, where, you know what I mean? Like, you have something that you can create buzz about. I think it's. I think it was smart to go to Asia and Japan to do this. Like, they're a little bit more of a line culture. They'll still stand in line easier than the West. Like, the west, you'll stand in line but in. In Asia and South Korea, like, they'll stand in line and they'll force something. And so by making people stand in line, you create a new story. This line is so big. Look how big the lineup is, and people come in. So I think they picked the right place to launch something that's interesting. When I looked at the products, it just didn't seem like anything else that's going on in the world. But I thought somebody in his team is intelligent and is doing something different for him.
- [63:24]
Camille
I do think it was them to make that decision to launch there. And the reason why is because they didn't have to chase celebrity. So by doing it in Japan, a market that only makes sense because of the way that they've kind of styled the streetwear. Like, it feels more Japanese. It created a lot of hype and buzz here because he completely bypassed the US Market. So people here who were like, the hypebeast kings are wanting to get their hands on these shoes because he went there and it made, like, a social media moment. So I do. And I do think that that's them because they're at the heart of celebrity culture. So they didn't want to have to do, like, a whole, like, gifting program. They didn't want to have to put up with the rigamarole of. I think they're bored of it.
- [64:09]
Phillip
They bypassed all of the courtiers and courtesans that are in between the consumer and the product. And by going to Tokyo and having a. I. I think there's a move towards, you know, prestige brick and mortar locations that. That just, like, Gentle Monster does, that brings people into an event that makes it feel. Feel like an experience with an element of scarcity. And then that will. That will fuel online sales. Yeah, people will see it on their social media and then buy it, but you don't have to have one in every mall, but you need to have very strategic and tactical brick and mortar stores.
- [64:40]
Camille
The only feedback I would give through to criticize the brand is it feels to me like he's trying very hard, opposed to critical crafting an evolving personal brand around it that positions him as this, like, fashion and, like, I'd say more of a branding mogul. Like, to me, it seemed like a bit of a crutch that he had to bring Haley in to do design. And, like, the way that he kind of launched these shoes is like he ripped off her phone case design of the lip gloss and, like, had a, like, a case that, like, held a joint. And it. It just. It felt like, he is trying to be this. He's seen the success of what Haley has done, and Haley has made that. He's decided to get into products. And it feels kind of easy. It doesn't. It doesn't feel like there's this genius behind it. Like, the. The tie to Justin Bieber feels the most weak, which might make sense why they went to Asia, because that's where his brand is the strongest. It's like Paris Hilton. She does her products do so well in Asia because the idea of parents. Paris Hilton is so much more prestigious there than it is in North America. So I think that's another element to it that makes sense to me is there. And it's disappointing because I want to praise him for what they did, but there's something there that feels like a celebrity brand that's getting into products to make money.
- [66:00]
Phillip
Yeah, no, I agree with you. That's a good point. I think if he did that in la, it would have failed. Like, he just doesn't have that draw. And so I don't.
- [66:07]
Camille
But Drew House did well, it may have.
- [66:09]
Phillip
But to do it again, to switch, I don't think it would have got anywhere near the buzz, but to go to Tokyo, like the center of that culture. So I don't think that they just. I think they had to go there to get this type of feedback. And I agree with you when you say he's trying too hard. Because when you look at the store, if you go online, look at, like, there's too many products to be launched all at once. Like, if you're going to launch your new brand House or whatever, it should grow into something. But if all of a sudden you've got 200 SKUs in your store on day one, like, how involved was he?
- [66:40]
Camille
It shows you the copying and pasting.
- [66:41]
Phillip
That's what I'm saying. It's not like he designed something that he absolutely loved. And, you know, Kim designed shapewear because it really was something she wanted to, and that's how she got into it. And then from there, you build a brand house. But today, there's a way to make money, which is if you have celebrity, go to Asia, launch a store, you know, put orange socks on a table, spread out, you know, like it. I don't think it's.
- [67:04]
Camille
And the lines will come, you know, like. No, no, I totally agree. But that's also the core difference when you analyze when celebrity brands work versus when they don't. And the core difference is finding a true need and a real gap. And that's what Skims did is is. And I still have these fights. You know, we criticize them for doing, you know, these things. And the reason why I criticize them for generating earned PR is I'm just getting a bit sick of, like, just putting more junk in landfills. Like, I think that needs to get to a point where there's. We're not just leveraging hits on the Internet, which I'm never going to win that argument. And that's just my own perspective. But the piece here is, to me, there is that gap of what is he creating that's filling a gap, other than it just looks like another easy slide that had 15 minutes. So that he comes across as this hype beast.
- [67:57]
Phillip
No, because I can put in Yeezy, which was successful. I can put it into an AI and say, hey, give me a whole. A whole thing of products off of it. Like, you don't see the artistic investment into something that's worth the money other than, oh, I'm famous. And here's some stuff I think is. Is cool. Like, what he should do. He kind of disappeared, but he needs to disappear and come back kind of like Keanu did, or do something and come back like a monk or, you know, having done something interesting that makes his products cool. And I think he just wants to try and catch up with Hailey because they're probably competing, and I can imagine.
- [68:31]
Camille
They had art because Hailey is kind of the breadwinner now, right? Like, she goes and creates this beauty company, and it has the largest exit in beauty in a handful of years. And it's like, when you look at that as one of the most prolific pop stars ever, you know, when you look at what you can make in lip gloss and just think of, like, how much of his life he gave away to touring and to albums and to singing. And, like, here she can make lip gloss, and we don't even know how much she leaves the house or even how much she works. And she makes this much money. It's crazy.
- [69:02]
Phillip
He doesn't have a story, you know, like, as a founder, like, we're not seeing what he's about these days.
- [69:07]
Camille
But that's also why, though that piece does work is, like, there's this whole streetwear culture of, like, hypism, where it doesn't work, where you have to have these things. But, like, you. You. It's actually like, the exact same thing as, like, girls needing the new flavor of lip gloss, but it's just like this streetwear version of, like, the. This hoodie that Comes out with this obscure print, is like the thing you have to have and it goes on the aftermarket for so much money. But it just, it's another way of showing like how stupid the human brain is and like what it, what it needs to feel validated. Okay, so let's talk about Omnicon and the changing of the guards in advertising in the agency world. So Omnicon has officially acquired the rival holding company ipg, creating the largest advertising entity in history. The aftermath is brutal. They've let go over 4,000 people and the idea is that it's likely the retirement of legacy agency brands. What are your thoughts on this?
- [70:02]
Phillip
What was that phrase? News of my demise is. So the kind of first level thinking of it is this is the end of the agency or the creative. Because there's this giant merger of two agencies and with 4,000 layoffs, we called it like last year, marketing is going to start to see tremendous layoffs in the industry with AI. So if you're in marketing, you better be building a personal brand, you better be building a community of people who know you. You better be doing something dynamic and memorable or else you are going to be retired. Where I think this is going to go is I don't think it's the, the end of spectacular creative people in advertising and marketing. I think you're going to see a shift to boutique. You know, so the giant law firm, I think it's similar things happening in law. The giant law firms aren't sustainable. It's too expensive to keep them. They're not hiring associates anymore because the GPTs are better than six year associates in the most case. So you're going to see a big shift in labor. But if you're in this industry, you need to be looking at building your own brand, your own boutique. And, but if there is again, I think there's going to be an increased demand for top creative. So for the top 5% in the field are going to have a bigger demand. Yeah, but the people who are just average, who are just phoning it in, who think they can work from home and not really care, they're done. You better start looking for another profession because you're not going to be around in, in a year. And that's the first sign is the people who are phoning it in, who think they can, they can coast in a marketing world are going to be done. But the top creatives are going to be gold to companies because as everybody goes to AI, you, you're not gonna get that human creative element that's the difference.
- [71:38]
Camille
Yeah, I mean, I think that's the core takeaway is like, when you look at these agencies like ddb, like, it's effectively Sterling Cooper. Right. Like, they've been around. They did the original Think small Volkswagen commercial, which was from 1962, or, sorry, that was from 1959. And then they did like the Avis. We try harder. And these are legacy agencies that have been around since the 50s. So when you, you know, it makes sense for there to be a consolidation of the way advertising used to be, because they have all of these departments, they have all of these IP for doing things like RFPs, right. Like the request for proposals, like, they know how to work at the highest level. But you're right, to me, it's. It's also diversifying through the nicheness of where it's all going. Right. Like obb, the agency that did the skims, live, like they're a media company that does like, develops, like production media. So it makes sense for them to develop like a live department or to be doing like these, these production activations with brands. Like, it's just, it's moving away from having the radio department and the advertising department and the commercial, the TV commercial department. Like, it's going to more niche expertise.
- [72:51]
Phillip
I explain this all the time in terms of value. Microscripts. The right microscript script is worth millions of dollars.
- [72:57]
Camille
Oh, yeah.
- [72:57]
Phillip
It's really the execution. Once you have the microscript can be delegated to AI agents going forward or graphic designers. But the number one thing the companies need is the right microscript. And if you have experience using AI and you ask for it, you just get a regurgitation of old microscripts. What AI doesn't do is something that's groundbreaking, that kind of breaks norms and moves you. Because all the AI generated language models do is look at what's been done in the past and then regurgitate it and give you 10 suggestions of microscopes that none of them are really creative or groundbreaking.
- [73:32]
Camille
Well, it's even more than that though too, because the AI is also aim to please. So if you're in the mindset of I need to get this done, I have 25 minutes, I'm presenting this in 45, you're not going through the right direction in passes and the right mindset and framework in order to get the best product, and that's the biggest threat to your business, is that AI aims to please. So when your team is using AI and you're Kim Kardashian doing masterclass, you're getting a really shitty product because a B level employee, even at these top, if they can be lazy and cut corners, they will. And that's where you have to go to top creative and surround yourself with people that understand the trends but also understand their risk. Because it's so focused on aiming to please.
- [74:19]
Phillip
Yeah, like I'd love to give a little bit of an insight on AI because OpenAI ChatGPT is taking a lot of heat these days because it was in a dominant position early. But it then when it was in a dominant position it took a risk, a risk averse platform. So it doesn't really give you data that's risky. And what it does is it learns from your chats and it learns how to play please you.
- [74:42]
Camille
Yeah.
- [74:43]
Phillip
So like if you ask it to be your counselor, it's gonna, it's gonna just say what you need to hear. It's not gonna give you what you want to hear, not what you need to hear. And there's an example I was watching the other day, two individuals who were big soccer fans or football fans in Europe, they Both put into ChatGPT who's the best soccer player in the world? And it gave a different answer because it knew that one person loved Messi, another person loved Ronaldo. So when it asked the question what's the best soccer player in the world world, it gave the answer to the Ronaldo lover Ronaldo and the Messi lover Messi.
- [75:13]
Camille
Based on the data points of what.
- [75:14]
Phillip
It could put that they've already seen together. That's not what you need in business. And so there's a movement away from chat, GPT and open AI because it's risk adverse. GROK is now crushing it with giving you risky analysis. And Google has caught back up with Gemini.
- [75:28]
Camille
Gemini is crushing it. A nano banana, like the, the, the, like the creative that's coming out of it. But that's the problem is that it's an intangible that I can't express to you. Like I see when I use ChatGPT if I use it for ideation or that's why I have to like write the articles and I can like utilize it for like ideating, but I'll see the way that it develops the sentence structure or how it regurgitates it back to me, it's focused on pleasing and then that when you're trying to break through and do something that's different and if everybody else is using that same, you're handcuffed by the same person problems.
- [76:02]
Phillip
We had a phrase in the military with top performers. If you have a yes man working for you want to use redundant, you know, you don't need. You need somebody who challenges who pushes and who can. Who can break new ground into new creative areas. Yeah, totally amazing.
- [76:15]
Camille
Well, that was awesome. What a great week. So much to cover. Next week we have to do our favorite Christmas, Christmas movies, Christmas songs.
- [76:23]
Phillip
Remember, if you want to buy a Christmas gift for somebody this year. Camille Moore, social media masterclass. Best gift you could give somebody.
- [76:28]
Camille
And we'll give you a 25% off discount if you use Brand Story 25.
- [76:33]
Phillip
It will be the gift that keeps giving.
- [76:34]
Camille
I mean, honestly, this is like when I was watching Kim Kardashian's masterclass. I'm like, man, what. What it is to be a fly compared to this lion. And I'm like, man, like the fact that they're going to generate millions of dollars off of this masterclass, that doesn't explain anything and is not helpful in any way to business owners. Like, it was so disappointing.
- [76:55]
Phillip
It was a great learning lesson. It was a great podcast. Look forward to next week's Christmas special.
- [76:59]
Camille
Yeah, we'll see you next week, guys.
- [77:00]
Phillip
Let us know what your movies are.
- [77:02]
Camille
Your songs are, and your favorite ad campaigns at Christmas. DM those to me on Instagram. And, guys, I love getting your nice messages about how much you love the show. Keep sending them to me. I love connecting with you all. If you tune in every week, I'd love to know your name, your face, so that we know who we're talking to because we are here on a Sunday. We do this every weekend.
- [77:19]
Phillip
But follow and share.
- [77:21]
Camille
Please don't. Just, like, have a great day. See you next week, guys. Goodbye.