Podcast Summary: The Art of the Brand – “The Ordinary LIED”

Episode Date: October 22, 2025
Hosts: Camille Moore & Phillip Millar

Episode Overview

This episode offers business owners and branding enthusiasts a sharp, thorough dive into recent branding moments making waves—most notably, the resurgence of the Victoria's Secret Fashion Show, shifting trends in beauty branding, the meaning behind ego metrics on social media, the “Tiffany Paperclip” phenomenon, Amex's unique market signal, and the controversial new campaign by The Ordinary. Camille and Phillip bring refreshingly candid insights, banter, and actionable wisdom, always with a critical eye on authenticity and the evolving landscape of consumer perception.

Key Discussions & Insights

1. Victoria's Secret Fashion Show: The Return of Aspirational Branding

[02:29–23:49]

• The Show’s Comeback: After a multi-year hiatus, Victoria’s Secret staged a highly-discussed return, pushing nostalgia and entertainment to the forefront.

  • Phillip: "I literally found it far more entertaining than the Oscars or the halftime at the Super Bowl." [02:46]
  • Carol: "Victoria's Secret objectively made supermodels more well known, like, to the average person." [03:30]

• Aspirational vs. Average: The hosts stress that leaning into ‘average is excellence’ dilutes brands meant to be aspirational.

  • Phillip: "Our society’s kind of move towards trying to force people to say that average is excellence...leaning away from aspirational." [05:21]

• Brand DNA & Nostalgia: There’s praise for VS returning to its ‘brand DNA’: sexy, fun, a little controversial—but always with purpose.

  • Carol: "At least went as close back to their roots as I think they can." [04:15]
  • Dialogue about Pink and established supermodels fostering personal brands through social media.

• Cultural & Social Context: The show’s evolving cast and performances (Carol G, Missy Elliott, a Korean group) reflect intentional outreach to diverse audiences.

• The Downfall Lesson: Disruption came not only from changing social sentiment, but mainly from the rise of DTC (direct-to-consumer) brands and e-commerce, giving consumers choice and ending VS’s monopoly.

  • Carol: "A big reason of why the business tanked is because it was the first time ever that the consumer was able to be given choice." [18:16]

• Takeaway for Brands: Stay authentic, but don’t try to please everyone; know when to consolidate and refocus rather than dilute.

2. Branding, Perception & Products: Aesop, Hermes, and the Power of Experience

[23:49–30:29]

• Aesop as Premium Signal: Premium brands (like Aesop hand soap) immediately confer an aura of quality.

  • Phillip: "Whenever I go into a store, if I see Aesop in a gym...I immediately think this place takes it seriously." [24:00]
  • Carol: "Packaging is not enough, Experience is not enough, consistency is not enough. It's all of the four of them together and how they create a universe of experience." [25:10]

• Small Details, Strong Signals: Even small luxury touches (hand soap, toilet paper) deeply affect brand experience.

  • Carol: "If you can see through the toilet paper, it's not good toilet paper. Like, invest." [27:30]

• Seasons in Business: The hosts discuss how lasting brands appreciate the need for business cycles—growth, consolidation, and renewal.

  • Phillip: "Businesses need to go through seasons in order to keep growing, to protect their brand and come out better every year." [29:00]

3. Brand Fatigue & Minimalism: Peeling Off Beauty Labels

[30:47–39:01]

• Brand Overload: Highlighting Allure’s “visual decluttering” trend of removing labels for peace of mind—a reaction to endless branding.

  • Carol: "We're at this point of brand fatigue. Even our most mundane daily rituals are interrupted by visual marketing cues." [30:56]
  • Phillip: "If you have to take the labels off of all your stuff to feel uncluttered, maybe the real core issue is you don't need as much stuff." [32:22]

• Beauty’s Branding Paradox: Brand universe drives desire in beauty, even when utility is minimal—leaving brands striving for consumer “want” rather than “need.”

  • Carol: "Beauty is such a unique industry that's truly powered by the brand, right? Like you don't really need anything in beauty, you want in beauty." [33:34]

• Rogue Science & Placebos: Many “miracle products” are about emotional payoff, not clinical performance.

  • Phillip: "The placebo effect is what the brand is telling your mind that you feel better, you look better." [36:35]

4. The Real Value of Branding: Price Justification & Investment in Authenticity

[45:50–54:25]

• Tiffany’s $1,500 Paperclip: Viral social post claims, “If Tiffany's can sell a fifteen hundred dollar paperclip, you can stand by your price."

  • Carol: “It's missing a critical point that you can charge a premium price point when you have a brand that justifies that price point.” [45:50]
  • Phillip: “Tiffany has a brand that's been built over a century. ...It doesn't bear scrutiny." [46:53]

• Mastery & Craft—Jiro’s Sushi: The documentary "Jiro Dreams of Sushi" illustrates how relentless, joyful pursuit of mastery compounds over time to drive premium, irreplicable value.

  • Phillip: "Wealth accumulates from investing in making something spectacular, not just jumping around from shortcut to shortcut." [51:49]
  • Carol: “Branding multiplies your business valuation by a factor. The public-facing image, engaged community, and reputation make a massive, tangible difference.” [52:28]

5. Social Media Realities: Followers vs. Views

[54:55–61:50]

• "Ego Metrics" Exposed: Instagram’s new "views on page" metric is now more valuable than follower count; those obsessed with followers cling to an outdated signal of “legitimacy.”

  • Carol: "The reason why Instagram is showing you that metric is because views on Page literally matter more than how many followers you have." [55:10]
  • Phillip: "Followers have become an ego metric that is actually destroying business strategy." [56:45]

• Algorithmic Shifts: People don’t follow as readily; breaking through now requires exceptional entertainment, education, or trust. Old metrics no longer correlate to reach or impact.

  • Phillip: "To get somebody to follow you today...you have to be very entertaining, very trustworthy, or very reliable." [57:04]

• Case Study—Hyundai vs. Amex: Hyundai Cards (Korea) has only a local customer base but a highly engaging social presence; Amex, a global powerhouse, has fewer followers due to uninspired social content.

  • Carol: "The brands that are killing it online are the ones that really understand their brand, are creating a great brand universe." [59:05]

6. Amex: Signaling, Loyalty, & Short-Term Thinking in Retail

[61:50–68:10]

• Amex as a Brand Signal: Accepting (or rejecting) Amex cards signals whether a business values premium customers.

  • Philip: “All of the top bankers say, look, we can't compete with Amex.” [62:19]
  • Carol: "The percentage difference in a credit card attracts a different clientele." [65:09]

• Short-Term vs. Long-Term: Many businesses reject Amex due to fees, missing the long-term value of attracting loyal, high-spending customers.

  • Philip: "If I've decided that I'm an Amex Platinum or whatever card holder, that's a signal that I'm a good buyer." [64:30]

7. The Ordinary’s Controversial Campaign: Authentic or Manipulative?

[68:16–72:57]

• Creative Breakdown: The Ordinary’s new “anti-beauty-industrial-complex” campaign is visually arresting but, given they’re owned by Estee Lauder, disingenuous.

  • Carol: "It's like fake marketing where...we want you to see the Ordinary as this indie Canadian brand...But it's owned by a conglomerate." [69:58]

• Critique of Industry Critique: The campaign is praised for boldness but called out as “corporate masquerade.”

  • Phillip: “It's criticizing the industry and it's part of the industry that created it... If you want to make a difference, you have to be prepared to criticize your industry.” [70:32]

• Creativity vs. Sales: Provocative creative alone isn’t enough; the ad failed basic commercial function: it didn’t make anyone want to buy.

  • Carol: “It didn't make me want to buy any of their products." [71:10]

8. Realtor Saturation & Social Media Evolution

[72:57–77:51]

• Early Adopter Complacency: Realtors initially excelled on social, but now suffer from homogeneity and lack of true differentiation.

  • Phillip: "Today it's just saturated. Like, why would anybody follow a realtor today?" [73:27]

• The Billboard Effect: Digital now requires higher investment in creative/production to replicate the “credibility signal” of a physical billboard.

• Niche Down to Breakthrough: Doubling down on audience-aligned views and authentic personality works better than bland, generic content.

  • Carol: “She’s now owning a space that people aren’t speaking to because they’re just trying to be Realtors as opposed to community connectors.” [76:03]

Notable Quotes

• "Our society’s kind of move towards trying to force people to say that average is excellence." | Phillip [05:21]
• "Packaging is not enough, Experience is not enough, consistency is not enough. It's all of the four of them together." | Carol [25:10]
• "Branding multiplies your business valuation by a factor. The public-facing image, engaged community, and reputation make a massive, tangible difference." | Carol [52:28]
• "Followers have become an ego metric that is actually destroying business strategy." | Phillip [56:45]
• "It's like fake marketing...The Ordinary is owned by a conglomerate and it really doesn’t resonate with that brand message." | Carol [69:58]
• "To be able to spend a lifetime perfecting your craft is where…is the point of life." | Carol [48:10]

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Topic/Section | Timestamp | |----------------------------------------------------|-------------------| | Victoria’s Secret Return & Brand DNA | 02:29–23:49 | | Aesop/Luxury Signals & Seasons in Business | 23:49–30:29 | | Brand Fatigue, Minimalism, Placebo in Beauty | 30:47–39:01 | | Tiffany Paperclip: Price & Brand Longevity | 45:50–54:25 | | Social Media Metrics: Views vs. Followers | 54:55–61:50 | | Amex Brand Signals & Retail Decisions | 61:50–68:10 | | The Ordinary’s “Anti-Industry” Campaign | 68:16–72:57 | | Realtor Saturation & Social Strategies | 72:57–77:51 |

Final Takeaways

• Branding goes far beyond surface: It’s about the cumulative, authentic investment in experience, community, and psychology.
• Metrics and perceptions change: What worked before in branding/media now quickly becomes outdated as platforms and consumers evolve.
• Authenticity cuts through: The most successful brands and leaders double down on what is uniquely theirs—without dilution or artifice.
• Continuous innovation is key: Early success can breed complacency; ongoing novelty, audience focus, and strategic investment are crucial for staying relevant.

For more branding insights, practical strategies, and candid expert commentary, listen to “The Art of the Brand” every week.