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- [00:00]
Carol
Carol G killed it. She was wicked. Victoria's Secret fashion show. They had stopped the show for several years. They brought it back.
- [00:09]
Philip
I literally found it far more entertaining than the Oscars or the halftime at the Super Bowl. I just thought it hit.
- [00:16]
Carol
Victoria's Secret objectively made supermodels more well known, like, to the average person, where you actually could, like, talk about them like, as if you knew them.
- [00:25]
Philip
I saw Aesop and I didn't know it was expensive, but I wanted it. But now whenever I go into a store, if I see Aesop in a gym or if I immediately think this place takes it seriously, you know what I mean? Like, it sends a message. And that's actually the secret sauce. That's the hardest thing to do with your brand.
- [00:41]
Carol
It's missing a critical point. You can charge a premium price point when you have a brand that justifies that price point.
- [00:51]
Philip
When you look at Jiro now at his stage, he's charging $250 US a seat for meals that last 15 minutes to 30 minutes.
- [01:00]
Carol
How many views on page you have had in the past 30 days? The reason why Instagram is showing you that metric is because views on Page literally matter more than how many followers you have.
- [01:13]
Philip
Followers have become an ego Metric is actually destroying business strategy. And that's why so many people try to buy followers, because, like, if you don't have a certain amount of followers, you're not legit. So. So hands down, Amex has the best rewards program, even when you go to banks and they're being honest with you. By the way, if you're a founder or scaling your banking relationship, you need to get some coaching on how to have a better banking relationship. But because I have good banking relationships, even the top bankers say, look, we.
- [01:37]
Carol
Can'T compete with Amex.
- [01:38]
Philip
Amex is the best.
- [01:39]
Carol
Yeah. Welcome back to another week of art of the brand.
- [01:53]
Philip
It's a wonderful week to be alive.
- [01:54]
Carol
It sure is. It's pouring rain here in Toronto.
- [01:57]
Philip
We get to talk about business, branding and strategy. What could be better?
- [02:00]
Carol
Man, we got a lot to cover today as usual. We're going to kick it off with the Victoria's Secret fashion show. It is back. After their short hiatus. We're going to talk about beauty brands going anti brand Amex in business, Tiffany viral post, ordinary creative store displays in Korea and how realtors have saturated themselves. And I'm sure Philip will come up with some other really interesting shit for us to talk about along the way.
- [02:28]
Philip
Right on. Let's get into it.
- [02:29]
Carol
All right, so Victoria's Secret fashion show. They had stopped the show for several years. They brought it back and there's a lot of buzz online. People are loving it. People, mixed reviews. We watched it. I want to know your thoughts honestly.
- [02:47]
Philip
And you may or may not believe it. It is the first Victoria's Secret show I've watched. Even though I think I would have thought I would have watched it in the past. But watching it with you, I literally found it far more entertaining than the Oscars or the halftime at the Super Bowl. I just thought it hit, like, I really enjoyed the music. I thought that the way that they did the music was spectacular.
- [03:08]
Carol
Carol G Killed it. She was wicked.
- [03:10]
Philip
The mixing of the music in with them going by, you know, like, I find the super bowl halftime performance usually just completely dead to me. Yeah, it doesn't matter. It's just dancing around and performative. But what I loved about this is like, it interacted the music, created the vibe. Like, it put the performers in with the music. Loved it.
- [03:30]
Carol
From the clips I saw online, like, I'm very much. My algorithm is very much like the Candice Wapnols, like the Adrian Lima's, like the like iconic Victoria Secret story stars came up on my algorithm, like, right away, the. The evening of the show. And I was really happy to see a return to the brand because it was very nostalgic for me. Like, that is what I grew up with. Like, we would watch it in high school, we watched it in university. And it was really a highlight to. To tune in to see these supermodels because Victoria's Secret really gave them more of a personal brand, like there was, especially because it came with the rise of social media. So we really. Victoria's Secret objectively made Superm more well known, like, to the average person where you'd actually could like, talk about them like as if you knew them and.
- [04:18]
Philip
Empowered them to become millionaires too. Influencers, Millionaires, millionaires.
- [04:23]
Carol
But they were really. It's a really interesting analysis of models is like, it's been something like 90% of the models are like faceless, nameless. Like, you'll never know them. Like, a lot of them that walk in the high fashion shows, they're kind of. Their job is just to walk. The Victoria's Secret angels are supermodels and you know who they are. So it was really cool to see them come back on socials. And then we watched. Watched it and it was a really interesting kind of like, like full experience because, like, I wanted to be critical on certain things. Like, I wanted to, like, criticize. Like, I didn't love the pink portion. I still felt like there was, like, a B team on the Runway. And I was like, eh, you know, this isn't as exciting as, like, the big names that were coming out at first, but ultimately I was really impressed that they. They at least went as close back to their roots as I think they can.
- [05:09]
Philip
It seems like an evolution of entertainment in that they. They went too far to one side of the spectrum, and it became not fun. Became more like lecturing to people. And what I found about that show is it was fun.
- [05:20]
Carol
Yeah.
- [05:20]
Philip
And it wasn't.
- [05:21]
Carol
It was really fun.
- [05:21]
Philip
It wasn't per. Like, it wasn't all the way back to the other side. Like, it still incorporated a little bit of both, but, like, it was unabashedly fun. But the comparison I want to give, and I don't know if I'll do it well, is our society's kind of move towards trying to force people to say that average is excellence.
- [05:37]
Carol
Yeah.
- [05:38]
Philip
Right. And when you're. When you're involved in something that's aspirational, whether it's your business or your brand or a performance. Sports, you know, leaning away from, like, you know, sports too. Right. Like, but I was just thinking, like, fireworks. It's like when I go to a fireworks show, like, I don't. I don't want to entertain the complaints of a shitty firework that shoots, like, six little balls and say, like, I should be in the big fireworks show.
- [06:02]
Carol
Yeah.
- [06:02]
Philip
Because I'm an amazing firework. I'm like, no, you're not. Like, you're still valid, but you know what I mean?
- [06:06]
Carol
Like, still firework, but it's not the show.
- [06:08]
Philip
I want the show, and that's what they gave me, the show. But you know, Missy Elliott, to me, like, I loved. I loved the Colombian lady. I think she was so Carol G. So good. But she was sexual in a way that a woman should be sexual. Like, I don't not should be, but I mean, like, she captured something like. You know what I mean? And it was beautiful, I thought, but. And then Missy Elliott was just rocking it.
- [06:29]
Carol
You bring up such a great point. I wanted to criticize what I saw on the Runway, which wasn't originally what you saw on the Runway. And I do want to talk about the Victoria's Secret brand story, like, kind of how they lost their way. But I do think this is a really important. But I think the way that they did it is accurate for who is shopping at a mall store like, ultimately, this is a fashion. A fashion show for, like, pieces that are gonna. That are sold at, like, average American malls. And you should. A WNBA star that represents that. You should have some models that can come out and that. So that. That girl that, like, that woman that. That. That goes and buys clothes at the mall, you know, can feel. Because even the models that they did choose that were less traditional, they still did look beautiful.
- [07:22]
Philip
They were sexy and feminine.
- [07:23]
Carol
Yeah.
- [07:23]
Philip
Whereas Megan Rapinoe is not sexy nor feminine.
- [07:26]
Carol
Yeah.
- [07:26]
Philip
No matter what you say. And so when you. When you feature her as your Victoria's Secret model and you put boxers in there, it's moving away from your brand. It's not saying there isn't a place for it. But, you know, what they did is they still focused on people who were. It was really.
- [07:39]
Carol
They did a great. And they also did a great job, though, too, of also leaning into, like, light controversy. Like, there was a lot of criticism for, like, the Nepo babies, you know, like, Iris Law, Jude Law's daughter was on the. You know, there was a few of those. But, like, ultimately, that's also.
- [07:53]
Philip
Jude's daughter's beautiful.
- [07:54]
Carol
That's also what Gigi and Bella Hadid were as well. And, like, the world loves the them. And that's also what. That was also such the American way of, like, these stars that, you know, the kids, like, they're coming on the Runway, and controversy is good. Like, the fact that people can have alternate opinions and we can talk about this and that we can have a dialogue and a conversation and opinion on the show means they actually did something. Right. It's the exact same thing for the Chanel show with Matthew Blaze. He's like, you want people to love it and to hate it, to have an opinion on it, because that's the whole point of why you put so much money into doing something, is you actually had some risk.
- [08:29]
Philip
One of the things that social media did that I think is actually destructive to our society is it made it very easy to tear down. Yeah, it made it very easy to. For everybody to have an opinion. In the past, if you're in a small village, you had an opinion. Nobody heard of it. But today, the more kind of extreme the opinion you take, the more loudspeaker amplification you can have. And so people want to turn around. Oh, there was nipple babies. Oh, there wasn't. This, like, it's. It takes no effort to tear down. I can tear down a scar. Skyscraper a thousand times easier than it is to build one.
- [08:57]
Carol
Yeah.
- [08:58]
Philip
And there's just so many people out there that are. Their whole industry and influence is based on tearing down things that are supposed to be fun and great. And we need to move back towards celebrating amazingness.
- [09:08]
Carol
Well, I think that's also the destruction of what happened to Victoria's Secret too. Right? Is I did a case study to really understand where Victoria's Secret came from. And it's a really cool story. So it first was started by this guy, I think his name is Rob Reynolds. And in the 70s, I guess more traditionally coming into the 60s and 70s, maybe even before that. But men would traditionally buy lingerie for their wives or for their girlfriends. And he noticed that the lingerie buying.
- [09:39]
Philip
It was a gift, like a special occasion kind of event.
- [09:42]
Carol
And it was brought back by the man. And he found that the shopping experience didn't match the purchasing it like what he was purchasing it for. So it was like the lights were very bright. It was very like sterile, like kind of department store ish experiences. But it didn't have that sexiness, which is what you want, that kind of that full blown experience. So he went and created this concept in California called Victoria's Secret. And Victoria came from the Victorian understanding of when kind of undergarments became like a fashionable thing and like what was under the garment. So it's kind of this like speaking to like traditional female femininity and like what happens kind of beneath the wares.
- [10:23]
Philip
Can we go back a bit too and just talk about society and agree. Or take me down on this, but I feel like the last 20 years you've seen a movement that's deliberately tried to make men look like they're bumbling idiots. You know, like when. Even when you look at sitcoms and all that, like they're not capable. Because when I think of like when Victoria's Secret started, it actually seems like a very cool thing that a man would go into a store and look at stuff. Stuff and buy something that he thinks amplified his partner's beauty. And he could pick it and they would like it. Right. But there's kind of this move now. Like it's not. Men don't pick it. We just pick ourselves. And they're just kind of been brushed aside as not really consequential.
- [10:59]
Carol
Well, it's like what Ray Dalio says, like history has context, you know, like the way things were in the 50s, 60s and 70s. We can't. Like looking back now is hindsight. Like that's 2020. Like you to criticize what it was to where we are now. But what's interesting is so Lex Wexner bought the company. There was like eight locations. They were struggling. And he bought the companies for like, nothing. It was like $8 million, something crazy. And he really kind of like juiced it up. So the way that, like, Victoria Secret was before to what Victoria's Secret has kind of become was really Lex Wessner and Ed Razek, and they kind of came into the space and they're. And this is also during the 90s, which is what we talked about last week on last week's episode, the same time, where women were very strongly entering into the workforce. So this is kind of like mid to late 80s, early 90s. He really started the show. It's like 86, 87. Like, that was the Heidi Klum era. And you really started seeing women making stronger buying decisions, entering into the workforce. So exactly what you're talking about, like, that move to women being empowering. And then the Victoria's Secret model worked because it was attractive to both. Women love female beauty. They love to appreciate the ultimate female beauty. That's what I talk about a lot with especially. Especially with men. Like, there's female fashion, like fashion for females, and then there's. There's female fashion for men, and it tends to be way more feminine versus for female fashion for women. You see a lot of cool, like oversized blazers, like, cool, like slacks that are like wider leg. Like a lot of the fashionable stuff that I think is quite fashionable you wouldn't agree with as well because. Because of that kind of the difference of how females appreciate female beauty over how what men are looking for in female beauty. But what Victoria's Secret did perfectly is it attracted both. And it was first with the catalog, and the catalog was like. Was like bigger than Sports Illustrated. Like, they generated such an insane amount of revenue by putting these models that were like naked and lingerie under the auspice of like, you're buying something at like the Sears catalog. And it did so well. Apparently in the. One of the things I was reading, it was like the. One of the most read magazines by men. And it was hilarious because it was like literally only lingerie. But it was such a well done thing because it attracted both men and.
- [13:16]
Philip
Women well before digital media. Like, the joke is even the Sears Roebuck catalog had an underwear section. And that's like. And young boys would go to the underwear section of the Sears thing to.
- [13:27]
Carol
Look at because you couldn't get.
- [13:28]
Philip
You couldn't get pictures of.
- [13:30]
Carol
Yes.
- [13:31]
Philip
But yeah, like, Victoria's Secret catalog was. Was Something you want to get your hands on. There's a scarcity to the beauty that was there.
- [13:37]
Carol
That's what they did so well is like, they were so obsessed, obsessive about who they picked for the show. It meant something, right? Like, it was. The proportions were crazy. Like, you had to be super tall, tiny waist, big bust, gorgeous face. But they. They did hire people of all.
- [13:54]
Philip
Yeah, they celebrated beauty, and that's what.
- [13:56]
Carol
I liked about places.
- [13:57]
Philip
Yeah, that's what I mean. They celebrated beauty across cultures because beauty exists in every culture. That's what I loved in the Victoria's Secret show is even the way they chose their music acts. Like, they had the Korean band, which.
- [14:07]
Carol
Is amazing for pink younger kids.
- [14:09]
Philip
They had a Colombian singer, which, you know, speaks to how much Latinas love the blinged bras.
- [14:16]
Carol
They loved the body sprays.
- [14:17]
Philip
And then I had Missy Elliott, which.
- [14:19]
Carol
Was just like, Missy Elliott is a true celebration of women. Women. So initially, I didn't really agree initially with, like, Missy Elliott, because to me, Missy Elliot was kind of before my time. And I know all of her music, but it kind of felt a bit dated kind of. But honestly, I'm so glad they chose her because Philip made such an astute point where I have to. I really have to praise him on is he said, imagine what Missy Elliott went through to make it in rap music as a woman in the 90s. And I'm like, you're so right. Like, her swagger, her coolness, like, how special she is. She earned it. And that's a true celebration of women. And I, like, I'm okay with celebrating women that are gorgeous because that's how you want to feel when you put on lingerie. Like, you want to feel. Feel like the best version of yourself. It can't be average. It has to be the most aspirational. And I don't want, like. Of course there's a. There's a part of me that's like, yeah, it'd be great to look like Heidi Klum, but it's. It's not. It doesn't keep me up at night.
- [15:21]
Philip
You look better than Heidi Klum.
- [15:23]
Carol
But I enjoy. Thanks so much, darling. It doesn't keep me up at night. Like, it's nice to look at on Instagram, Bella Hadid and Gigi Hadid and Adrienne Lima. And, like, it's nice to look at beautiful people that are rare to see in real life.
- [15:35]
Philip
What it reflected to me is or represented to me is Victoria's Secret. Kind of went back and rediscovered their Brand DNA. You know, like they actually put something together that, that recaptured the curiosity of its, of its target audience by, by just embracing that brand DNA, not trying to please everybody, you know, not deviating or diluting at all.
- [15:56]
Carol
Well, and that's what I want to talk about too, because Victoria's Secret really had a huge hit in 2016. That's like when the business lost so much money. And a lot of the media loves to say that Victoria's Secret lost it because they were tone deaf to this empowerment of women. And I think that that is. There's an accuracy to that statement, that there was a change, you know, in the kind of the overall zeitgeist. But I think that's an oversimplification because that also comes at a time with a massive eruption into E commerce because platforms like AliExpress and Alibaba really were flourishing where it allowed an average person to create a company like Nyx or Third Love. These other companies were able to enter into the space and fill the gap that a mall company that had the majority monopoly over underwear in North America needed to be disrupted. It was kind of like antitrust.
- [16:57]
Philip
It just goes back to that correlation versus causation. Did it go down because it was being insensitive to the market, or did it go down because it became very easy to copy everything they did? And they had a very successful business model. And so what people realized is, and this is what I talk about in the car industry in the past, it was very hard to tool and dye a plant to, to make a Ferrari that looks like a Ferrari. It took years of investment. Like years. Now with AutoCAD and computers, as soon as you see a new car that has a great design, you can put it, you can take a picture of it, create a system, and you can create the exact same design. So that loyalty isn't about just the product. It has to be about something else. And so what happened with Victoria's Secret is it was easy to make the exact same pieces in China and call it a different name and that affected their market share, but also to have.
- [17:43]
Carol
A different brand ethos. Right. Like before the emergence of all of these, like, direct to consumer e commerce brands, when you went to the mall, it was La Vie en Rose, which was for old ladies. There was in Canada La Senza, which was like, for kind of strippers, you know, like, it's like, okay, honestly, like, do a quick search. Like La Senza was like cheap, like lingerie. Like, that's kind of the insight.
- [18:04]
Philip
Honestly, thongs weren't as ubiquitous back then either.
- [18:08]
Carol
Well, I'm just, I'm saying within, within my tenure of, you know, the mall shopping, because I also was shopping at malls before the, the boom of ecom.
- [18:16]
Philip
Back then, people wore bathing suits where you couldn't see their whole butt.
- [18:19]
Carol
Well, okay, so that was another move too, actually. Victoria's Secret got into swimwear and it was like they ended up killing that line. It was one of the dumbest things they ever did because when they were kind of at that, like, the end of their height, I and a ton of people, like, that's where you'd buy bathing suits at the mall. Because there's actually a shortage of cute bathing suits at the mall. That's why bathing suits blew up online because you could only go to like, Bikini Village and like, it was just not a ton of options. What was interesting is this all happens at a time when you're starting to get so much information online. So, like, I can be following these, like, Brazilian influencers or Parisian influencers, and they've got way cooler bathing suits than what's at the Scarborough Town Center. Like, it's like, I didn't have options. Like, these girls had options. So. But the point is, is that when, when all of these like Third Love and Savage, Fenty and Nyx, they, they, they came into the market, it'll. There was a ton of women that didn't want to buy bras and underwear from Victoria's Secret, but had to because they didn't have other options. And I think a huge. A big reason of why the business tanked is because it was the first time ever that the consumer was able to be given choice. And when you're given choice, you want to start to move away from a publicly traded brand that isn't really, like, Victoria's Secret wasn't innovating. Right. Like, there wasn't a ton of different things at the mall. It was the same bedazzled push up bras, the same different versions of like, Teddy lingerie. Like, they weren't constantly bringing in new styles and looks in a way that was like an Aritzia store where, like, it was new every season.
- [19:53]
Philip
Because it's minimalistic for the most part.
- [19:55]
Carol
Or no, it's kind of tacky and colorful.
- [19:57]
Philip
No, but I'm just saying, like, lingerie is minimalist. You know what I mean? So there's only so much you can do once you've gone risque. Like, that's the challenge. But what I was thinking, like, from a brand perspective, even in lingerie, like when you put on a piece of lingerie, you want it to the brand to reflect something that makes you feel special.
- [20:14]
Carol
Yeah.
- [20:15]
Philip
Right. And so if you move away from your brand DNA towards average. Right. It makes it less special. It just makes it less special. Right.
- [20:21]
Carol
Well, that's a problem that they, that they fell into because it. The reason why I did the whole study and talked about where they came from is they came from a man wanting to create a space that made him and his wife feel sexy for where the garment was purchased from. It became a brand status or signaler for where they got it. You weren't getting it at Kmart, you weren't getting it at Sears, you bought it at Victoria's Secret. Right. That was the agent provocateur. You were buying into this brand universe of I am sexy because my sexiness comes from a brand that is sexy. And when you start to depart from that DNA, when you start to adopt things that are offsetting that are not. Yes. But just purely not authentic to your brand, like what Nicks can do and what Savage Fenty can do is authentic to that brand ethos. It's why it doesn't work. So what makes more sense, and I love your perspective on this from a scaling is like you almost need to retract opposed to change, right. Like there's. You can scale back and still execute at the highest level, opposed to try to change and be inauthentic.
- [21:29]
Philip
There's a lot there. But you know, when it comes to scaling, you're going to go through seasons, right. And you can't, if you break into a new market, create a new market category, you're going to, you're going to have that hockey stick growth, right? You're going to have slow growth for a while. You build, you build to build, you break in and then you get a hockey stick growth. But the hockey stick growth can't go on forever. Otherwise you'll just control all of the dollars in the world if you're growing 50% a year. So you have to anticipate that once you get that growth, people are going to come in and try to enter into your market. Because you've just created a profitable market, people are going to come in. And the problem is when it's a public company, the board wants you to keep it that growth for the shareholders. And then that's what ends up corrupting the brand. As opposed to you say, look, we have a season of growth, we have a season of expansion, then we have a season of consolidation, and then you Got to come back at it again. So it's very hard when you have quarterly. Rory Sutherland says it all the time. When quarterly reports are driving your business, you're going to ruin your brand. You have to think in a decade long cycle of seasons.
- [22:26]
Carol
And that's actually the. I think the best takeaway on the Victoria's Secret front is their stuff maintained their brand style, but a lot of their customers grew out of it. Like when I was in grade nine and the push up bra, I bought it Victoria's Secret. That's. I'm no longer that consumer. Right. And they didn't age with where their consumer was aging. So the smartest thing they did is they got into pink. Like, it brought me into pink at a younger age. I was, I was a part of the Victoria's Secret universe in younger. And it allowed me to buy into them more than what I would have. But I'm. But I aged out. Like, that's not a store for me. Like, I'm not gonna be buying, but I, But I'm gonna watch the Runway. Right? Like, I wanna, I still follow the models. Like, I still, I still respect the brand. But it, they didn't, they didn't age. Like, it's still. It's kind of tacky. It's like pink and black and boudoir and like everything has rhinestones on it. Like, I'm not wearing that as an executive.
- [23:20]
Philip
Yeah. I think stylistically the harder thing to do is, is to make it sexy and, but without it being so over the top. Like, but that's the hard thing to do. And then appeal to professionals who want to feel sexy but wear clothes.
- [23:32]
Carol
But that's why the Carol G thing was super smart. Right? Like, they're, they're speaking to the audience and like, and Missy Elliott and like the, and the Korean group. Like, they're speaking to the audience that's buying the product. But they're still bringing in a lot of eyeballs. Like when we watch. It was 25 million eyeballs that streamed the YouTube, the YouTube show.
- [23:49]
Philip
You know, summing it up, what I tell businesses is always, always, always try to get as accurate intel as you can on what your product makes your customer feel like.
- [23:59]
Carol
Yeah.
- [23:59]
Philip
What does your customer feel like when they have your product in their hand or when they're with you? And this is where we were talking about Aesop when, you know, we have Aesop all in our house. And I just remember the first time I saw Aesop and I didn't know it was expensive, but I wanted it but now, whenever I go into a store, if I see Aesop in a gym or if I immediately think this place takes it seriously, you know what I mean? Like, it sends a message. And that's actually the secret sauce. That's the hardest thing to do with your brand.
- [24:26]
Carol
You're such a great barometer if you're buying the product, if you're buying the brand, because you see through a lot of the branding very quickly. I can too, but I'm a sucker for sometimes, like, great branding and great packaging. And when you first tried the Aesop at my house, you instantly came out of the washroom and you're like, I think I'm gonna steal that soap. And he had. You had no idea what the price point was. You didn't know anything about it. You're like, damn, I love that soap. And you were, like, smelling your hands. And it was the one that has the. The like, embrasion in it. So, like, there's like, texture to it. And that's when I was like, I gave the story. And you were like, yeah, damn, that's great soap. And then I think I end up getting it for you. But the point is that the Aesop experience is so dramatically better than your average hand washing experience that it actually, Aesop, to me, is a fantastic picture of a great brand because packaging is not enough, Experience is not enough, consistency is not enough. It's all of the four of them together and how they create a universe of experience that really makes you feel better, different and creates a feeling.
- [25:39]
Philip
Yeah. It's not just a rational linear line where you have hand soap, you know, cheapest, with worst products, and then you go along a linear line to most expensive with best products. Right. What a sup did was jump a category and had a price point that was significantly harder. That made people say, wow, is this really worth it? But then you can't do it unless you have the brand. And they nailed the brand. Like the logo, the packaging, the name. Like, it worked to create a feeling that if you have Aesop in your house, you're different than people who have.
- [26:11]
Carol
A Jergens bottle or, like, in businesses. Like, it's such a small investment for such a disproportionate upside to the experience your customer feels. I've got two stories to it. So one, we were in the Air Canada Lounge, and it's not the nice one. It's like, average. And when I went into the washroom and they had like, molten brown, like, hand soap and hand cream, I remember saying, this place Isn't that bad? Like, I remember, like, having that experience of, like, this place isn't that bad, even though it's the worst. But it's. But. And. But then, in addition to that, we went into the Louis Vuitton store on Bloor. I had to use the washroom. And when I went into the washroom, I kid you not, they had literally a Jergens bottle of hand soap.
- [27:02]
Philip
Really?
- [27:02]
Carol
Yes.
- [27:03]
Philip
You should have taken a picture.
- [27:04]
Carol
I think I did. And I just. I didn't even know how to communicate this on stories in a way that, like, made me feel approachable. And it. It was such. And not only was the hand soap so bad, but, like, the. The trash was, like, one of those, like. Like, bootleg electric ones where there's, like, no reason for the. Like, the lid. And it was, like, an Amazon, like, random name. And I'm like, man, like, what a mess. What a mess.
- [27:29]
Philip
I've even said that about toilet paper. I'll say it again. Like, if you can see through the toilet paper, it's not good toilet paper. Like, invest. If you have a good story, have good toilet paper.
- [27:37]
Carol
I know, but, you know, what's actually funny is I got as a present the Hermes hand soap. And I wanted to. I wanted it to be an experience of where I, like, criticized designer brands for getting into verticals that they shouldn't. And I was actually kind of annoyed that someone got this for me as a gift because I'm like. I, like. I'm like, really? Like Hermes and hand soap, like, get me a blush, you know, like hand soap. And if you're gonna get something that's affordable at Hermes, and I kid you not, it's my favorite hand soap in the house, I constantly find myself, like, sniffing my hands when I walk away because it's such.
- [28:17]
Philip
Sometimes when I get nervous, I put my hands under my arms, and then I sniff them like this.
- [28:20]
Carol
That's gross.
- [28:21]
Philip
You don't know that skit from Saturday Night Live?
- [28:24]
Carol
I missed that one.
- [28:24]
Philip
Superstar.
- [28:25]
Carol
Well, anyways, it's the rhubarb one. It smells insanely delicious. And I'm like. I'm like, this is also why Hermes is the best, because everything that they do is actually so intentional. So I take that back. And my point is, is that I think that there is space for execution in hand soap. Look for the small things.
- [28:41]
Philip
I just want to, before we move on, go back to that seasons element where I was talking about seasons, because everybody wants to live in summer. It's fine. But, like, when. Even when you look at human evolution, this is going into Phillip areas. The cultures and societies that advance the most are the ones that had winter. And it's because winter forces you to think forward and prepare. It forces you. The danger of winter forces humans to think of ways to be better, to safeguard. And if you don't, you die. Whereas if you live in perpetual summer, you just get comfortable. And so businesses need to go through seasons in order to keep growing, to protect their brand and come out better every year. But if you think it's always going to be summer just because you got a good idea, it's not really the way for your business to grow. So embrace the dips so that you can get to the great, to the greater heights.
- [29:26]
Carol
Well, it's interesting. I was reading a book and I wish, I want to say it's like Angela Duckworth and Grit, but I could be totally making that up.
- [29:33]
Philip
Well, Duckworth did grew grip.
- [29:34]
Carol
I know she did the book, but it's a, it was a female author and she talks about where she had to live for two years or three years in Vietnam. Like when she looks back on that time of her life, everything just kind of morphs together because the weather was like pretty much the same like all year round. And she said how much the human mind anchors memories to weather. So if you're someone that lives in a four season environment, like you think about like memories tied to like what it's like to be at Christmas, what it's like to be in the spring, spring, what it's like to be in summer. And it's, it's very cool because for so much of human history, our lives were so dependent on weather. So a memory is so anchored to like to weather into that time of year that it's such a great point on like why you have to go through seasons.
- [30:24]
Philip
Embrace it, embrace the suck, as we used to say in the military. And great things come from that.
- [30:29]
Carol
All right, so let's move on to the next segment here.
- [30:32]
Philip
Can I just let people know what hua means?
- [30:34]
Carol
Yeah, do.
- [30:34]
Philip
I don't know it. So you've heard hua. Nobody let me know if you know what it means. But anyhow, it means heard, understood, acknowledged. So it's a way of, it's a way of saying I understand what the mission is. So when somebody says hua, heard, understood, acknowledged.
- [30:48]
Carol
We didn't say from where.
- [30:49]
Philip
Well, it's from the Marines. But it's, it's, it's a military phrase that you hear all the time in movies where people say hua. It means Heard, understood, acknowledged.
- [30:57]
Carol
I just hope that we've got like so many like Art of the brandies, like hooahing everywhere. Like who on Victoria's Secret, who on. So next segment is a article from Allure and the headline is people are so tired of branding, they're tearing the labels off their beauty products. And the idea is that we're at this point of brand fatigue. And even though brand fatigue is actually not widely studied, widely studied, even our most mundane daily rituals are interrupted by visual marketing cues. The constant barrage overshadows the self care experience, hijacking my focus and frankly tiring me out. But creatives on the Internet might figured out a way around it. Visual decluttering, the practice of removing all of the labels from one's products to avoid constant advertising, is on the rise. It's not for everyone. Yes, it takes a little time and effort to peel off all those labor labels and you have to memorize which products are which. But the guy who wrote the article, whose name is Caitlyn McMichael, argues that it's actually a quiet rebellion hiding under the guise of minimalism. So I wanted to chat about this move to people ripping off their labels of their beauty products and what we think this means because this is kind of what we talked about last week too, right? Where people like even the runways, we've been seeing a massive leave from overly logoed and branded luxury goods.
- [32:21]
Philip
May I contribute?
- [32:22]
Carol
Take it away.
- [32:23]
Philip
It's ironic to me in terms of the level of thinking that goes on because that's, that's fairly solid thinking. But you know what I would suggest to people is you actually have too much, right? Like if you have to take the labels off of all of your stuff to feel uncluttered, maybe the real core issue is you don't need as much stuff.
- [32:40]
Carol
Mic drop.
- [32:41]
Philip
Right. And if I was coaching somebody or giving them a life like life hack, I would say, well, maybe don't spend money on brands that aren't valuable. And one of the examples that I life hack is I love Brunello, Cuccinelli or Cuccine, however you say that.
- [32:55]
Carol
Oh boy, guys, he's so bad at names. It's like horrible. He doesn't even remember my brother's name, but he calls him Kirk. His name's Curtis.
- [33:02]
Philip
It's T and a K, but anyhow, so I love those types of clothes.
- [33:05]
Carol
Curtis, Kirk.
- [33:07]
Philip
But suitsupply, a Dutch company actually has clothes that have almost the same fabric and looks alike. And I can get, I can get that look in some cases for 30% of the price. So what I would say is don't rip labels off of your expensive stuff. Buy what you need, less can be more and find ways to life hack so that you don't spend all of your life savings trying to be cool and then look so ridiculous that you're then ripping the brands off that caused you to overpay 10 times for that product.
- [33:35]
Carol
That's so true. Such a complicated thing to discuss because beauty is such a unique industry that's truly powered by the brand, right? Like you don't really need anything in beauty, you want in beauty. And how they drive the want is through the brand universe that you create. So it's a really interesting problem I talk about with beauty owners specifically in the work that we do. It's like it's the worst industry to be in because you just have to spend so much money in order to create this universe that drives people to want to feel a part of it. Like when you analyze Summer Fridays or Jisoo, like they're just spending insane amounts of Money to get 10 minute hits on the Internet so that you buy their lip gloss over the millions of others that exist out there. So to talk about the removal of labeling when the only thing driving that purchase is the brand is counter, it just, it takes away from what actually drove you to buy that in the first place.
- [34:41]
Philip
It's weird because it's kind of societal. It's actually, I think there's a parallel in healthcare, you know what I mean? Like where everybody wants to get the pill, the supplement, the whatever. They're not getting vitamin D, they're not eating healthy. Like there's simpler answers. And in beauty, I'd be interested in your take because I'm prepared to buy into beef tallow. You know, like this tallow movement, it makes sense. They show a picture of somebody in their 20s who use beef towel. Like I'm prepared to do that, but I just don't know if it works. But it seems like the system creates increased complexity in order to raise the prices up. And then you're just on this hamster wheel of constantly moving to what's better when there's a life hack, that there's a simpler thing there.
- [35:19]
Carol
There's two problems. That's why this is like a complicated topic to navigate. Because on one hand, a lot of these products, the messaging, the marketing, the branding universe that they're creating taps into the human desire to feel better, to feel prettier, to feel special, to feel wanted, you know, to feel like to feel like you're treating yourself. And that's a big thing. Like with products like Rhode, Like Rhode isn't. Doesn't have like medical grade active ingredients that are changing the cellular structure of your skin. But like, it makes women feel beautiful. They get an instant gratification of having shiny, dewy looking skin and they feel the closer to being like Hailey Bieber. Well, that's a reason to spend 100 bucks, right? But it's like when you talk about beef tallow, like, does it work? Like, what do you mean? Is it paralyzing your muscles? Is it making you look 40 at 60? Like, or does it make you feel like you're getting some moisture when it's dry outside and you don't really care about getting Botox? Like, they're kind of complicated questions because it's. They're not all weighted equally.
- [36:23]
Philip
The way you describe Rogue, though, it takes me to another medical reference that the ailment is you don't feel pretty enough. And you can, you can cure that ailment with placebo effects.
- [36:35]
Carol
Yeah.
- [36:35]
Philip
Which. The placebo effect is what the brand is telling your mind that you feel better, you look better.
- [36:41]
Carol
Well, that's what.
- [36:42]
Philip
As opposed to actually looking better. You know, like, it's kind of interesting.
- [36:46]
Carol
Well, that's like where I'm confused on this article is that like, you don't want to buy the Augustinus Bader face wash, which, let's just hear me say, is $100. So you buy the $4 face wash at Walgreens and you remove the label because you don't want to be reminded that it's the $4 bottle at Walgreens.
- [37:06]
Philip
That would make more sense.
- [37:07]
Carol
Like, yeah. You know, then a whole point of beauty though is it's the biggest misuse but like, greatest study of how psychology can make you buy something because of the way it makes you feel.
- [37:23]
Philip
Even the ceremony about it, what beauty has mastered, I think when I look at how females use a lot of it, is there's a ceremony. There's like, I am taking care of myself and going through this process. Like, the ceremony is as important as the product in some cases.
- [37:36]
Carol
Well, and that's what we're. It's not for everyone, but for me, like, it's a moment of self care and for appreciation for myself in the morning and in the evening. And to me it's. I'm also in pretty deep. Like, I'm not really buying products because a celebrity, like, owns it. Like, I at this point, like, I'm using stuff that's like, it has a lot of clinical studies. You know, it's expensive because it has like active ingredients and like the product goes bad in three to six months. So to me, like that brand does matter because to me the, the weight of the brand, the brand universe, the person behind the brand and how they make brand decisions are all so, so integral to where I'm going to part my money with. Because I know so much about beauty.
- [38:19]
Philip
People are going to want, people are going to ask, what's in your bag when you talk like that?
- [38:24]
Carol
It's so funny. It's what Hannah said to me today. Like, I don't know, do people care about that? Like, or I don't know.
- [38:28]
Philip
But when you talk about your beauty regime, like, it'd be interesting but we can talk. What I'd like to talk to business owners about though is I often come across them, I don't want to say they're whining, but they're like upset because they know they have the best product in the market and they're not seen as, as the best product in the market. And I, I almost guarantee you in most cases the product that's doing the best or holds that number one position, their product might not be the best, it's just that they really understand branding better and they're good enough to be in the best category.
- [38:53]
Carol
Yeah.
- [38:54]
Philip
You know what I mean? Like there's a top 20% of things that are good enough to be in the best category, to be the best. It definitely comes down to the branding.
- [39:01]
Carol
The problem is, is you need, you need money or you need status to like really break through in skincare and that's like the unfortunate reality or beauty, let's not say skincare and beauty. You need money or you need status. And the reason why it's problematic is because people have such a short attention span. So for the reason in which your product is exceptional, whatever the reason may be, it often takes five to 10 minutes to explain that to someone. And in a fast paced environment where like things are moving so quick and you have like gorgeous Hailey Bieber who's next to all of these celebrities that has like these, these crazy investments to do these campaigns, it's very hard to compete with that because the consumer isn't necessarily always looking for what is the.
- [39:46]
Philip
Most effective and the human brain is inaccurate. So the human brain isn't accurate.
- [39:51]
Carol
There's also no regulation.
- [39:53]
Philip
It tells itself what it wants to hear. And our good friend Patty, who's in this industry talked to us once at.
- [39:58]
Carol
Restore C, it's actually the main product we use. It's a fantastic brand. Restore C, it's so good. But the brand we're trying to improve because she put $58 million into the patents and the formulation, some of the best products in the market, but didn't put money into branding. And it's so frustrating for these people that are like, I have the best product. What do you mean? I need to invest in like better socials, better logo. And I'm like, that's the problem. Like, it's the job. Like, it's table stakes in beauty. Because people have so much money and.
- [40:27]
Philip
Because she has like, integrity, she doesn't give away sample sizes because. But with branding, you can give away samples and people are like, oh my God, I'm using Hailey Bieber stuff. They put it on, they think I look better. But because her product actually works, she's like, I'm not giving samples away.
- [40:41]
Carol
No, it's the opposite. Her product works over six weeks.
- [40:44]
Philip
No, that's what I'm saying is that's why she won't give away a sample. Because it's not branded that you put it on, you think you look better. It actually just works if you use it for six weeks. So there's no reason to give a little sample.
- [40:54]
Carol
Well, that's also the problem with brands that are, that are beauty brands that are more focused on the brand than on the product. Because I don't want to attack Rhode because she actually had this, one of the top formulators and like in the industry, period, do her line. But a lot of this stuff, it's like it's surface level, right? Like they're putting in ingredients that like, look really shiny or like silicone that like feels very smooth. And it's very hard for brands that are actually focused on like really like medical grade effective ingredients. I know a lot of really good brands that struggle with this because you're right, it takes six weeks to see a difference in your skin at a cellular level. So it's tough to like it. Also too, not for nothing, brick and mortar, like legit bankrupts you if you don't have like private equity or VC money. Like, it's crazy. The, like, not only do they take an insane margin, but the cost, the beauty brands have to pay the cost for the free samples. And it's millions and millions and millions of dollars. And it's very difficult because the whole point is like, how many people are you convincing off of a small, off a small sample? And that's like A gamble that only people with huge pockets can take.
- [42:06]
Philip
The market forces the manufacturers to put in products that make people feel like it's better when it's not actually doing what it's supposed to be doing. And it punishes the companies that actually work. Like Restorercy, but doesn't put that in. Yeah, that is. I was going to ask you, do you think it's worth talking about the face wash? The face wash element of it? Like why face wash is a good way to get somebody to switch brands?
- [42:28]
Carol
Oh yeah. But it's actually changed. It's now a lip product. So I was working with the CEO of one of the biggest beauty brands in drugstores and she was like Harvard educated and like just knew all everything. And the most interesting stat that I learned from her was the reason why skincare companies often have multiple different face washes is like, that's, that's basically the gateway product. People are the least loyal with face wash. So it's important for any industry that you're in to like to learn from this because it often if you're in something like, like beauty, right? Like you're in skincare, you sell face cream and eye cream. It's very hard to get someone to leave what they buy and they trust and they know to your product when it costs more, they've never used it before. Like there's a friction point and it's too. It's from a percentage of likelihood. It's very unlikely to get someone to come over on like a face cream other than like the randomness of like a best friend, like highly recommending it or me telling my mom, you got to try this. So the way to get people's loyalty in is on face wash. So they often price it as like a loss leader so that it's like the easiest way to generate people to come into the brand universe. And then once they like the face wash, they're more likely to try other products. The second one was sunscreen. Now the new product is lip balm. And that's why Summer Fridays is the number one. The number number, number one in the world beauty product of 2025 is a summer Friday's lip balm. And they got into beauty with a jet lag face cream mask. And it did really well. It was a great hero product. But the way that you get like massive adoption is through the new gateways lip product.
- [44:12]
Philip
That happened with me in fitness clothing because back in the day I was big Adidas guy when it came to workout clear clothes. And then somebody Said, hey, you got to try Lululemon underwear. Like, it's really amazing. And then I went into Lululemon store for the first time, bought some underwear. But that is what that was the gateway that got me to buying Lululemon T shirts with a silver and some of that stuff.
- [44:30]
Carol
You know what sucks? Lululemon made the worst female underwear. Like, it, like ripped you up.
- [44:35]
Philip
They never really.
- [44:36]
Carol
It was so bad. I thought it was the only one until friends of mine started an underwear company called a cc like cy and I was like, I'm not alone in this. Like, I was embarrassed. Yeah, I was embarrassed. Like, tell anyone. Like, they're ripping me up. Like, it's kind of hurts. And lul's got the worst underwear. And they've got the worst socks, too.
- [44:57]
Philip
That's negligent. Eh?
- [44:58]
Carol
It's so stupid. So I'm glad you had a great Lululemon underwear experience because dance far better socks. Honestly, I feel like it's where to spend money. It's kind of funny. I think I talk about this with a lot of people, right? Like, people really don't like $20 underwear.
- [45:11]
Philip
Yeah.
- [45:11]
Carol
And I'm like, you literally wear it every single day and all day long.
- [45:15]
Philip
And it's the closest, snuggest fitting stuff that you wear.
- [45:17]
Carol
And like, socks, like, socks and underwear to me are like, they need to be good. Like, you can't have shitty socks. You wear them every day. I have a great socks experience with stance and I. You know, I only regret it when I'm at the cash register paying for it because I'm like, it's a lot.
- [45:32]
Philip
Of money, but they're workout socks, but.
- [45:33]
Carol
They'Re so worth it.
- [45:34]
Philip
Yeah.
- [45:35]
Carol
And I only have to, like, I really want to. We. You know what? It's really not out of the brand material, but if anybody knows, I'd really love to know if there's a bunch of socks hidden in your washer and dryer, because I really do feel like they go missing.
- [45:48]
Philip
Oh, God. Okay, go ahead.
- [45:51]
Carol
All right, so next we're going to talk about. Oh, my goodness. So there's this post that's going viral, and I really wanted to touch on it because nobody has been speaking to the core thing that people are missing. So there's this post that went viral on Money News, and it basically is a screenshot. I'm sure you guys have seen this, where it's like the Tiffany paperclip. It's this huge paperclip, and it's a bookmark, and it says, if Tiffany's can sell a fifteen hundred dollar paperclip. You can stand by your price. And all these business owners and business coaches and entrepreneur creators online were like sharing this post being like mic drop moment. Here you go. This is what you need this week to like drive through and stand by your prices. And it's missing a critical point that you can, you can charge a premium price point when you have a brand that justifies that price point is why.
- [46:53]
Philip
We need more intelligence in marketing and branding. Because they say, look, Tiffany charged this much for a paperclip. So you can charge whatever you want. No you can't. Tiffany has a brand that's been built over a century. You know what I mean? But it's like somebody writes an article and it's like that first order thinking where it kind of makes sense but it doesn't bear scrutiny. Once you dig down it further.
- [47:14]
Carol
Underscores like why you have to have a brand because you can charge. It was last night we were watching Jiro Dreams of Sushi.
- [47:23]
Philip
Oh my God. Amazing.
- [47:24]
Carol
It's so good.
- [47:25]
Philip
J I R O Must watch with your kids.
- [47:28]
Carol
Prime.
- [47:29]
Philip
It's on prime now. It was missing for years but it's.
- [47:32]
Carol
So great because it's.
- [47:33]
Philip
And we tried to book.
- [47:34]
Carol
Yeah. And they're like, literally there's like no bookings. Like no, we just don't take them. Sorry.
- [47:39]
Philip
Give the context. Sorry.
- [47:40]
Carol
So basically it's this is this guy that's been doing this since after the second world war and he has this three star Michelin sushi restaurant that's like in the basement of Ginza Station in Subway. And the whole premise of it is how he has, he has found masterstrokes in creating sushi. And it's just abs. There's, there's no like special. There's nothing special to it. It's just the absolute best. He's got the best rice person, he's got the best fish person. And he every single day he sees his work as a joy to be able to further perfect. And I love what he said in the beginning is he said once you pick your, your career, he goes devote your life to it. Like enjoy your life perfecting the career that you have. And it was so enlightening for me to listen to that because I, I even find like with how obsessed we are about this. Like morning noon and night, we're brand, brand, brand. Weekends we're record Sunday brand. And there's so many people that are like stop. Like smell the roses. Enjoy the front lawn, like go play. Like do more I'm like, this, to me, is what's worth living for. Is like, to have joy and purpose and to spend a lifetime perfecting your craft is where, like. And to be able to contribute in a way that's meaningful, like, is the point of life.
- [49:03]
Philip
It really is worth watching because it gives a perspective, especially for us in the West. But it's very hard. You know, when I did a keto, what I. What I learned is that there is beauty in everything. If you're just present. When you walk, and you walk very deliberately, you can really walk beautifully, like, when you pay attention. But our society is so distracted, and everybody is dabbling in everything, and everybody has an opinion on everything, and nobody's really focusing on. On making beautiful things that are simple. It's almost like that. That one of my favorite movies, the Last Samurai, where he looks over at the guy and goes, one could spend a life studying the cherry blossom and it wouldn't be a life wasted.
- [49:41]
Carol
Yeah.
- [49:41]
Philip
You know, like, a little bit of depth would help us.
- [49:43]
Carol
Well, that's what we actually can learn so much from Eastern culture is like, even, like, he just talks about, like, the art that goes into the rice. Like, this rice supplier comes by and he goes like, this is like. This one strain is like Jiro's strain, because he's the only one that, like, takes such great pride and care.
- [49:57]
Philip
Who knows how to cook it?
- [49:58]
Carol
Who knows how to cook it. And it's like. It's just everything that they do, it's so simple, is just done with so much respect and ceremony, like, every single day of the ceremony. And the reason why I brought that up is so. In the story, Jiro has two sons. And the tradition in Japanese culture is that the older son takes over the father's business. So in this. In the documentary, the younger son has to go out and to make his own location. And the interviewer asks the two brothers and says, like, were you jealous? When. Like, the fault. Like, when the father kind of pushed. When Jiro pushed you out to go start your own. He goes, no. Like, in. In Japanese culture, it's the greatest honor to be able to, like, as the oldest son, take over the father's business, and the younger son has to go and start their own company or start their own venture. And in doing this, they talked about how the sons are, like, 50 and, like, 40, 45, even, maybe. Maybe even older, 47 at the time of this documentary. And they're still, like, toasting seaweed every day. Like, they're still not even at, like, the highest level. And the younger son that's gone out and like has started his own restaurant and is doing it, can't charge the same price point as his father because he has, he's only been doing it for 30 years, over 50 years. And that 20 year difference, he was like, with some so much respect and dignity, was like, I could never charge what my father can charge because I haven't put in that time. And that's to go back to the Tiffany thing. It's like it's. Tiffany has its problems, like, don't get me wrong, it's been, you know, purchased and whatever. But to say that for the work that's gone into that brand, that reputation, what it means to get a Tiffany box and that color and like that's worth something. And that's why you need to invest in yourself, because that difference is, is the difference.
- [51:49]
Philip
I just think that humans today have a, have a kind of corrupted timeline. Everybody wants the shortcut, whether it's day trading, whether it's. Watch one video on YouTube and they're not focusing on their art. Whatever your business is, that's your art. It doesn't matter what market you're in and what. When you look at Jiro, his business, you know, now at his stage, he's charging $250 US a seat for meals that last 15 minutes to 30 minutes. But it is a transformative experience. But the guy's now a multimillionaire. You wouldn't know it, he hasn't changed how he's done it. But wealth accumulates from investing in making something spectacular, not just jumping around from.
- [52:29]
Carol
Shortcut to shortcut and compounding over time. Right. Like really but. And that's another core point too though is we haven't talked about this on the podcast, but we've talked about it a lot with our clients and we've done a lot of work with clinicians who have sold their practice or who are gearing up to sell their practice. And we will look at the valuation before they start branding and then we re look at the valuation a year or two later. And the difference between when you have that personal brand, you're generating followers, you have a nicer website is a 3 to 5 time multiple difference. And it's so intangible. But when you think about like put yourself in the shoes of your patient and you're looking, or whether it's a patient or maybe you're the investor and you're looking at buying two different clinics and one clinic has a full roster, has been in business for 20 years, has a clinic, but has no online presence or no website, nothing. The second one has all of the same things. Maybe has been in business for even a little bit shorter just to make something a little bit less than the first one, but has 100,000 followers on social media, has a beautiful website, has highly produced videos, who, you can see their before and afters, you can look at their work. They've got an engaged community that are commenting, that are sharing the content. Who, which one of the two is worth more money?
- [54:00]
Philip
I think branding is like investing. Like there's a compound element to it and it's a, it's a slow hockey tail. Like it, it doesn't have the immediate result, it's not the short term bump. You can't just like do a new logo and then all of a sudden everything changes. It's like it's a journey, it's a slog. But if you focus on it, you do it well, you're going to get disproportionate results. 2 years, 5 years, 10 years down the road. If you don't do it, you'll never get it.
- [54:26]
Carol
I also think that the paperclip bookmark is brilliant. Like, I love it. Like, I like.
- [54:32]
Philip
I know you want it. It's not going to be under the Christmas tree.
- [54:38]
Carol
I just, I'm so sick of like, I lose all these bookmarks that I. That are like these thin, flimsy pieces of paper. Like if it was an 18 karat, huge ass bookmark, like paperclip, I mean that, like I could put on the page. Probably not gonna lose it.
- [54:53]
Philip
No. All right, don't get me started.
- [54:56]
Carol
We tried. Okay, so I want to talk about follower count. So I haven't seen anybody talking about this on social media. And I think it's really important for wrapping your head around where the current state of social media is.
- [55:11]
Philip
This is a critical point.
- [55:12]
Carol
And the reality is, is that not only, like, I can tell you every way till Sunday, people aren't following anymore on socials. Like, the way that the algorithm has changed is continues to feed you content that you've been shown to like. So what sucks the most is you're creating great content, you're showing up and you're getting like all of these views, but your follower count isn't growing. And for marketers, you know the pain point when you're talking to your owners as business owners, you're like ready to cry and give up. You're not alone. And Instagrams change to showcasing how many views On Profile is an indication that the platform has changed, and they're showing you what metric matters more. And it's views on Page. So if you go to your page, if you set up like, a creator account, like a business page, you will see underneath your bio, and it's only viewable to you how many views on Page you have had in the past 30 days. The reason why Instagram is showing you that metric is because views on Page literally matter more than how many followers you have. And for context, we have a client that we had just launched socials for them a month ago or two months ago now, and he's had three videos get over 80,000 views, but he's got 115 followers. So the guy is like. Feels kind of embarrassed. He's like, you know, all of my 115 followers? And I'm like, dude, it's not about that anymore. Like, look at your views on Page. He has half a million views on Page, and he's been on, like, for socials in two months. Like, that's incredible. It's kind of metric.
- [56:46]
Philip
It's kind of a dark place to be in because followers have become an ego metric that is actually destroying business strategy. And that's why so many people try to buy followers, because, like, if you don't have a certain amount of followers, you're not legit, you know, and that ego metric exists in there. But he crushed it with content.
- [57:03]
Carol
Yeah.
- [57:04]
Philip
And the difference is, is I think people will. People have this. Their own ego metric, which is, I don't want to. There are people who have 10 times the amount of people they're following and follow them. And then there are people that have the reverse. Right. And so when somebody's gonna follow you, it's very hard if you have 100 followers, because they don't think you're worth following based on social desirability metrics. You know what I mean? Like, if only 100 people are following you, I'm not gonna follow you. It's hard to get them going, but they'll watch your video if it pops in the feed, and it's amazing. See what I mean? And to get somebody to follow you today, if you think of how many times you follow somebody, you have to be very entertaining, very trustworthy, or very reliable. That makes them want to work, align with you. Because it's. It's a big ask to get somebody to follow you. It's like going on a third date or something. Like, it's not just a quick follow anymore, because if you just keep. You follow 2,000 people, you're not getting their feed, right. Like, I. I really only want to follow 25 of the top thinkers. I don't want to follow 10,000 people. How does that help me? If I follow 10,000 people, I can't see their feed.
- [58:00]
Carol
Well, you bring up another great point is like, the. The other Instagram metric is really, like, people don't follow a lot of people, right? Like, when I see someone is following 4,000 people, I'm like, whoa, that's a lot like Instagram. You're right. Like, you want to more curate who you're seeing. That's where the Explore page is so huge. So it's. But it's also. The platform's approach has also changed. Before, it was really focused on who you were following, why you had followers, and now with, like, stories and the way that the Explore page is set up, it's just not about that anymore. So to your point, like, it takes a lot of trust building to generate a follow, and that's why you have to be so focused on brand. Like, I talk so much about, like, it's not often they're not social problems or brand problems. And the brands that are killing it online are the ones that. That really understand their brand, are creating a great brand universe. Like the. The example I gave in the book, because I'm going back to finish the book, is like, there's these really cool credit cards in Korea. They're called Hyundai cards, and they had like 464,000 followers. They're. They're a credit card that's only in Korea. And they're really cool. You should check them out online. They do all of these really, like, unique designs. So they'll do, like, a Starbucks card that, like, looks like a really cool card. They do these, like, passport cards. They're constantly, like, every month coming out with a new design. It's like kind of a piece of prize pride. And it's like, scarcity to have these, like, special Hyundai cards. And they're only in Korea. 434,000 followers. Really great brand, executes incredibly Amex. Like the America. The official AMex account has 637,000 followers. So the Amex is not killing it on socials. There's not a reason to follow Amex. If you go on Amex, it's like all bureaucratic red tape, like ads, content that's not interesting, you would never follow proportionally, Hyundai is doing way better because they have a great brand. So the brands are like, when you really study, like, who's got a ton of followers. It's because they're showing up in a way that isn't sales, sales, sales, sales. And that's why I talk about in the masterclass is like, you have to understand four pillars. If you're only selling. Nobody goes online to be sold to. They go online to be educated or entertained. You have to give them. So what. You have to give them value. You can, like, give them a left. Like, you can give them a right hook, you know, every three or four posts so that you can be like, hey, yeah, like, we sell services. But if every time we just come on these podcasts and we just laundry list what we do and who we're working with, no one's going to listen. That's not the point.
- [60:24]
Philip
Are we going to segue to the AMEX portion of this discussion?
- [60:27]
Carol
Let's do it.
- [60:28]
Philip
Since you brought up amex, I feel.
- [60:29]
Carol
Like that was just like a perfect lead in. But any, any, any remaining remarks.
- [60:33]
Philip
You know, what came to mind was just when I was working with a landscaper who wanted to scale and his socials were like, I'm a landscaper. Would you like to some new shrubberies? Would you like your lawn cut? And I'm like, dude, you were like a very accomplished football player and you manage somebody's backyard, like, why don't you make coaching references? Why don't you call yourself coach, whatever, and then come to, like, these amazing houses you're dealing with and like, and then say, hey, here's the game plan to run defense against the weed and thing, you know, like, and then all.
- [61:05]
Carol
Of a sudden, make it educational.
- [61:06]
Philip
Educational, but also entertaining, but tied to something that matters because he so good at talking football. And then you just put a football analogy over your landscaping and your lawn, and all of a sudden it starts to catch. That's the difference between selling and nailing it on social media.
- [61:20]
Carol
The only thing I just want to wrap up to that is, like, it's. I can never say it enough time. People don't care about you online. They care about feeling smarter, looking better, having their time spent in a more useful way. So if you're not doing everything you can to make their three seconds the best three seconds, you're not going to win.
- [61:43]
Philip
And they're not that fixated on whether you look the best, it's the best angle or anything like that. They want the content.
- [61:49]
Carol
Yes.
- [61:50]
Philip
Thank you.
- [61:51]
Carol
All right, let's move on to amex.
- [61:53]
Philip
I was just saying the other day, I'm getting annoyed. I love Imax. It gives me the best rewards.
- [61:56]
Carol
You weren't saying this the other day. You were saying that you say this all the time. And we finally said, let's bring this debate to the episode.
- [62:04]
Philip
So hands down, Amex has the best rewards program. Even when you go to banks and they're being honest with you. By the way, if you're a founder or scaling your banking relationship, you need to get some coaching on how to have a better banking relationship. But because I have good banking relationships, even the top bankers say, look, we.
- [62:19]
Carol
Can'T compete with Amex.
- [62:20]
Philip
Amex is the best.
- [62:21]
Carol
Yeah.
- [62:21]
Philip
So this came up because I went to my optometrist and I needed to pay for some glasses. Now this is a high end optometrist and they didn't take Amex. And I'm like, why don't you take amex? And they're like, oh, it charges an extra percentage than MasterCard. I'm like, these are very expensive glasses with a high markup. Like, this is annoying me. And I had to go out to the car. And I'm just the business decision not to take Amex because the short term thinking is I lose a percent as opposed to see, as opposed to having loyalty from customers who value what Amex brings to the table. I think it's not the smartest decision. And like everything you do in your business says something about you.
- [62:55]
Carol
You.
- [62:56]
Philip
So I like amex. We like Amex because it's the best rewards system hands down. You get the most for it. One of the ways they pay for that is they charge the retailer a little bit more money.
- [63:05]
Carol
1%.
- [63:05]
Philip
1% more than MasterCard. So if you don't take Amex, what you're saying to me is I don't want you to get those points. I understand that.
- [63:13]
Carol
Or I don't value as a customer is what it's telling you. I don't value. I don't value the Amex customer as a customer for this store.
- [63:21]
Philip
Yeah. And if your margins are only 3%, I can understand why you wouldn't want to give away another point. But most retailers margins are in the 50 to 100%. And I went to the optometrist to buy some glass, some sunglasses that were quite expensive. They didn't take Amex. And I just looked at them and I just looked at them and immediately my lens of this place changed. I'm like, you're not actually that good. Like, I shouldn't even be buying expensive sunglass prescription sunglasses from you if you don't take Amex because you don't actually care about what I'm doing. Like it devalued them in my perspective.
- [63:51]
Carol
No, it was incongruent to the brand experience. Because you're buying designer glasses at a high end optometrist and they're making a decision to be cheap, to not pick the credit card provider that costs a little bit more but attracts the kind of customer that's coming in to buy designer glasses. Like it was incongruent with the exception experience. And it constantly disappoints you because you're, you are someone who tips very well, who spends a lot of money wherever you're going. Like you're not a cheap customer. You're not coming in and buying the cheapest thing and asking for the tap water and then doing a 5% tip.
- [64:31]
Philip
And leaving like or add 1% on my bill. But like if I've decided that I'm an Amex Platinum or whatever card holder, like that that's a signal that I'm a good buyer. Right. And then you deny that card because you want the extra 1%. And then it just leaves me feeling, I don't know, like it annoys me. I know some people are going to say Amex is ripping people off, but you want to really appreciate what your buyer is representing in the way that they buy your product.
- [64:58]
Carol
No, I think that what the takeaway is from this and the point of this conversation was in a very saturated and competitive market, it's very easy to lose people with stupid decision making.
- [65:09]
Philip
That's a great point.
- [65:10]
Carol
And the percentage difference on between like when you're already paying 2% on credit card fees to have one, that's a 3% credit card fee. But a credit card in which has a higher net worth customer that it attracts, the 1% difference in credit card attracts a different clientele. And the reason why it's annoying for us is when we, when we tend to go to restaurants or these businesses, there tends to be a business element for us. So it makes more sense for us to put on an Amex. And for you, you actually don't even have on your Apple Pay or tap another card other than Amex. So it puts you often in a difficult position because they wanted to save the extra 1%. Opposed to seeing it as a cost of doing business.
- [65:54]
Philip
No, you nailed it there in terms of like it just, it doesn't make sense. So you can ask it like don't look short term if I would even advertise. We take Amex because your business means like, you know, and I would go the other direction.
- [66:05]
Carol
We want Amex customers. It just. What it underscores is you want to. What does your brand represent? If you're trying to come across as an upscale, a higher end, or you want to attract customers that spend more money, there is a sacrifice that needs to go with that. Or you can also stand on your laurels and be who you want to be. But I don't think enough businesses are actually really thinking about that cost and what that says to that type of customer.
- [66:33]
Philip
Yeah, I enjoyed where this conversation went because the message is the reason Amex is the best to Amex holders of all the credit cards. Yeah, you get the best rewards, you get the best protection, you get the best insurance. If you travel overseas on an amex, they'll pay 1500 bucks for. For legal fees if you have the right product. Nobody knows that. Like, so the card that takes the best care of the person who buys your product, you're not taking because you want the 1%. That's the signaling mistake that I think is happening there. And so relooking at that and saying, look, we take the card that takes the best care of you. Right. That would make people want to go. That's an interesting angle.
- [67:12]
Carol
Well, that was our experience when we were in Italy because there were so many places we went where we bought, booked so much of the trip on Amex points. Like all of these hotels. We booked all of this stuff on Amex points. And then we got there, and then nobody was taking the Amex credit card. And there was a lot of places where we didn't sit down and get dinner, or we left or we didn't buy stuff because there's sometimes where you, like, leave the house where you don't have, like, wads of cash on you in Florence. Right. Like, you only have what you have. And it just, it. It's not about the Amex. It's about that level of thinking. And people don't put that into their business for, like, what kind of a brand do I want to represent? Who do I want to attract, and what are their shared values? And there's a large segment, especially within AMEX, where that 1% difference can represent a 10% difference in your business because you're bringing in those people. You're so right in that Amex is the most favorable to business owners. And business owners tend to spend money. Yeah, they can also. They can also push it through their business.
- [68:11]
Philip
So great segment.
- [68:12]
Carol
Do you feel like you got. You got that out of your System.
- [68:15]
Philip
Yeah, I do.
- [68:16]
Carol
Okay.
- [68:17]
Philip
It's a point.
- [68:17]
Carol
All right, so I want to talk about the Ordinary creative campaign. So the Ordinary came out this week with this creative that broke the Internet. And it was very, like, dystopian, like 1984, kind of brutalist of kind feel, where it was just speaking to, like, how much we've kind of lost the plot on Beauty. And we're like a slave to beauty and we're all doing this stuff and, like, we don't know what we're doing to ourselves. And it kind of ends with this, like, very unscientific periodic table of, like, breaking down of all of these things that we're doing that have. That have no backing to science. So calling things like medical grade or like, poor list. These are all words that beauty brands use in their marketing that actually are useless when it comes to a scientific standpoint. On one hand, the Creative was. Was very well done. It made you stop. It made you think. It seemed very different. It broke through the noise. I want to applaud the Ordinary company for doing something that was engaging and impactful. However, and this is what people were not saying on the Internet. As of 2024, the Ordinary was purchased by Estee Lauder Company, which literally is an umbrella corp that owns all of the companies that they're taking a shot at. So it's like fake marketing where it's like, we want you to see the Ordinary as this indie. This indie Canadian brand that it once was, that is supposed to be like super cheap for the same ingredients that are in these core products. But it's owned by a conglomerate and it. It really doesn't resonate with that brand message. And I think this needs to be said.
- [69:59]
Philip
You know, it goes back to. In some cases, advertising can be manipulation. It's interesting that the. The vibe of the ad is kind of a 1984 dystopian.
- [70:08]
Carol
Yeah.
- [70:10]
Philip
Environment. But then they're actually using a 1984 kind of theme in that they're misrepresenting who they are to make you feel like an individual when really you're being controlled by making it think that you're an individual. Like it. It's quite interesting.
- [70:22]
Carol
Yeah. QI role. And it just. I want to praise it for thinking outside the box. It was a very well done creative, but it no way resonates to where the brand has gone.
- [70:32]
Philip
Well, it's disingenuous and maybe not authentic because it's criticizing the industry and it's part of the industry that created it. But what I liked about It. And this is why I say to a lot of the business. Businesses that I consult with is often if you want to make a difference in your industry, you have to be prepared to criticize your industry.
- [70:50]
Carol
Yeah.
- [70:50]
Philip
Right. And so that, that ad was engaging because it was kind of attacking the industry, which then you think if you're authentic, you're brave enough to point out what's not working, and then I want to know what it is you're offering that's working. But in the end, it's just kind of a corporate media masquerade, trying to make people feel different by just buying into the same thing.
- [71:10]
Carol
The only other piece that I think is really relevant is it didn't make me want to buy any of their products.
- [71:17]
Philip
No.
- [71:18]
Carol
And I think that's a really. It's something that you want to ask yourself when you look at a lot of these creatives online is like, does it drive you to buy? And whether you loved it or whether you hated it, the Sydney Sweeney American Eagle campaign made you want to go check out their jeans.
- [71:33]
Philip
Yeah.
- [71:33]
Carol
And that was a core takeaway from a lot of people that were pro. That message were like their. Their statement was actually like, ridiculous in that they were like, I'm going to go and buy 15 pairs jeans tomorrow. Like, it was an insane number that they would never buy. Like, nobody needs that many pairs of jeans. But when you look at an ad like this, it's not presenting the ordinary as a solution to the problem. And for that reason puts us more up for like an award than it does to drive sales. And the question you want to ask yourself as a business owner is what is the point of why you're doing a creative? And that KPI is super relevant because nothing about what it did is made me want to go even see what they're offering on their website.
- [72:15]
Philip
It's a throwback to, I think Rory was talking about it once, like some of the. Some of the ads that won, some of the ads that were the most memorable in magazines were ones that the people who remembered what it looked like didn't know what the product was.
- [72:29]
Carol
Yeah.
- [72:30]
Philip
Right. And so, yeah, you can be creative, but you have to be creative in a strategic way.
- [72:33]
Carol
Well, I'm even like going to their page now and it's like using exclusive exfoliating lip serum for the first time. And it's like, meet the ingredients. Ph. I get just. It. It's really not that different than what a lot of other of the skincare companies are doing. So it's kind of like Taking a run at them to make a statement without, I feel like actually really showcasing something that's truly different.
- [72:56]
Philip
It's just a smoke and mirrors campaign.
- [72:58]
Carol
Yeah. All right, so we got two more to kind of roll through here quickly. The first one is how realtors have saturated themselves. This is a really interesting conversation that we were having offline, and we were talking like, it's the real. The real estate space is really fascinating when it comes to social media because they were the ones that really understood it first that they needed to get on social media to increase their likelihood of getting more leads. Like, real estate really got it. They really got it early.
- [73:27]
Philip
One of my favorite guys talk to is a successful Realtor. And when I talk to lawyers, I'm like, look at what realtors are doing. They look down their nose. But realtors, the ones who succeed really have to hustle. They really have to know how to connect and how to lead gen. The top 2% of realtors are amazing. They know what they're doing. Most of them are not that good. So it's a great place to go to get examples of what's working. But they were early adopters. They got out there early, they used the coaching. But today it's just saturated. Like, why would anybody follow a realtor today?
- [73:59]
Carol
Well, that's like, my biggest criticism of it is, like, they were so good so early, but there's no differentiation in the market. And we work with some of the bigger realtors in the US And I'm constantly trying to push them, like, who they look to. I'm like, their pages are boring. Like, there's nothing new. There's nothing dynamic to it. Like, just seeing someone do the same thing in a bigger house doesn't make it more interesting.
- [74:24]
Philip
We're putting on a costume. What I was saying when we were talking is before digital media, what a billboard represented wasn't just the message on the billboard. The billboard signaled to the consumer that you have enough resources to have a billboard. And therefore you can conclude I'm good enough for you to hire. Right. Because people who aren't successful can't afford it. That's what billboards did. Digital media today, everybody has digital media, so it doesn't make you stand out. So the kind of billboard effect that you can do on digital media is to invest in better production and better content that signals to your audience that you have the resources that verify you as a top performer. So you have to double down on your creative spend, your production spend in order to get the billboard effect that gives you the credibility.
- [75:13]
Carol
Well, even like Ryan Sirhant or like Grant Cardone, like, I'm coming for you guys. Like what you guys, what you started 10 years ago was incredible. But when you go on your page, there's nothing new or different to it and it's there. It's interesting because they can. This is the thing that's like frustrating for people, but you also need to see it as an opportunity. The people who started that stuff early, like while you were sitting on your hands and not looking at socials, they won and they can, they can stay safe. Like, they don't have to innovate because they got ahead early and they have market share, they have awareness in market. So there's, it's, it's sometimes hard to learn from the people who were at the top of their game but aren't innovating because they can put out crappy content and it will get views.
- [76:00]
Philip
They're like Nike in terms of their. Because they have the monopoly.
- [76:03]
Carol
They have the monopoly. But where it's of part A positive is that if you actually analyze it, there's nothing new or different to it. And that's actually how you break through. Like, the algorithm rewards novelty and you need to do things that are outside of the box that are different. Like for you, you talked to a Realtor in our local area who really was on the verge of bankruptcy and you told her you're like, double down on your political views, get into your niches. And her business has been blown up because she now represents a community and she is trustworthy in that community. And she's taken a very different approach to like, it's not traditional real estate content, but she's thriving because she now is, she's now owning a space that people aren't speaking to because they're just trying to be Realtors opposed to like community connectors.
- [76:51]
Philip
Yeah, like, people see growth as, okay, I have to please everybody or not piss anybody off to get growth. But often it's counterintuitive if you actually find a lane where you really connect with people. You know what I mean? You can grow much faster by doubling down on connecting with the people who align with you at the risk of pissing off the people who would never hire you after they met you anyhow. Yeah, right. And the problem Realtors have, like, if you're listening, it's kind of an ego driven industry where there's a lot of ego in comparison. And so your social media content often is very focused on you as opposed to the hero is your Customer and you're the guide and you're not focusing on being creative in terms of how you will help your customer, the hero, be happier.
- [77:35]
Carol
You're so right. Guys, we failed you on the football logos. We're gonna get that for you next week. The best and the worst. We got some sent in, but like, guys, send them in, contribute. We actually had a few people reach out on wanting to be planner editors. So thank you. Thank you for messaging me.
- [77:51]
Philip
So we're launching this product that I think is absolutely spectacular and incredibly valuable, but we need some help from our audience picking the perfect name for it. And you know, we're going back and forth. So if you want to help out, just message directly and we'll bring you into, into the discussion to see if you can help us.
- [78:07]
Carol
Yeah, send me a message on Instagram.
- [78:10]
Philip
I also want to do a shout out. Check out. Camille's featured in CNN talking about Trump's branding. Big deal. And hopefully we're gonna be chatting with Gary Vee soon. So let's see how that goes.
- [78:20]
Carol
Google search, cnn Trump branding, and it will be the first one that comes up because in Canada, I don't know if you guys know this, we cannot post links on social media. It's crazy.
- [78:33]
Philip
It affects politics because then you're forced to go to traditional media only to get news. You can't. And so most people are spending their time on social media. The liberal government had written, gotten some legislation that prevents social media from putting it.
- [78:46]
Carol
They got. It was a fight because it was Meta, the, the Thompson family that owns like the Global Globe and Mail and like the Toronto Star. They own like, they own the conglomerate of the media. They're. The traditional media is failing. And the problem is that they can't monetize when people post the news on social media because they want everything to be like, like, like locked. Right? Like walls. And. And they were getting into a fight back and forth with Zuckerberg and then basically Trudeau showed a power move and was like, we're just gonna make it policy. Then like he had. And then he played the trump card. He actually did it. And it was because Meta wants to monetize. But ultimately, why is the government getting just so stupid?
- [79:29]
Philip
How ironic is the phrase played the trump card in today's society because it predated Trump. Like it's a game, you know, it's kind of crazy. Yeah, that how that. How that works out.
- [79:41]
Carol
Well, guys, thanks for tuning in for another week of our brand.
- [79:43]
Philip
It's been a slice.
- [79:44]
Carol
Speak soon.
- [79:45]
Philip
Like follow share.
- [79:46]
Carol
See you next week, everybody. Adios.