B (1:48)

You're so annoying because you actually look so good and I look like I got on the wrong end of a. Of a fight about Japanese Birkins. Okay, so we've been away for two weeks. We've got so much to catch up on. We're going to touch on today about some things that we learned, experienced, enjoyed in Japan and Korea and then touch on some things that are hitting hard, like Loewe on cloud and then elevating wellness tech outside of a Bunch of stuff that we analyzed in Japan that is super interesting for your brand.

A (2:20)

So much to talk about, the beauty of branding in Japan and a little bit of leadership lessons.

B (2:24)

Well, I guess I can start with how much it sucks to write a book. It's actually really interesting how difficult it is to do things where you can't see the immediate return. And it's probably for a lot of people, the same feeling you experience with creating content. There's just a bunch of different mountains to get over. And for me now, creating content is easy because, like, we've done it so many times. It's like sitting down and doing the hard work, which is like writing all day when you can, instead of doing, like the quick dopamine hits of like creating a piece of content or writing a substack.

A (3:01)

There is a saying in the Navy SEALs that they instill in recruits early in order to help them succeed. It's called embrace the suck. Anything worth doing is hard and sucks. And so anything that you find easy to do, you're probably taking a shortcut. But embracing the suck is the way to achieve something that's remarkable. And with book writing, which is a long term investment of daily pain, if you're not prepared to embrace to suck, you'll never write a great book. And if you don't write a great book, people won't know you. So embrace to suck. If you don't like to make content, embrace to suck. Make content. It'll pay off. Work out, it'll pay off. Eat healthy. Everything that's worthwhile involves some suffering.

B (3:38)

Over the past few years of writing and rewriting and going through this process, I've tried to consume as many books as possible to, like, inspire. And one of the ones that really stuck out was Stephen King's book on writing and how it makes so much sense that he writes every day. Like he says, even, like, even on Christmas. He is writing because the process of getting into communicating your thoughts through the written word, especially when you're so used to doing it orally, is. It's daunting is the wrong word. It's actually hard to get into a flow where you feel like you're executing your words in a way because it's less fleeting, right? Like a podcast, it's a conversation. When you're writing something, it's kind of forever. So it's trying to put those words together in a way that's going to last.

A (4:29)

What happens to too many people who have great intentions is they just get caught up in reading about what they should do. And so you're watching YouTube about what you should do, you're buying books about what you should do. Half people don't even read those books. Right. Do what you should do.

B (4:44)

Yeah.

A (4:45)

Right. Getting educated is fine, but most people are just are distracting themselves by thinking they're doing something by reading about what they should be doing. One of the tricks that we learned a long time ago is if there's something you should do, trick your mind by saying, look, I'm just going to start writing for five minutes. And then your brain will go, five minutes is nothing. And then once you start writing, you'll find you'll be there for an hour. But sometimes because it seems like, oh my God, it's a whole two hours, you kind of avoid it. You go to the fridge, you clean.

B (5:11)

Up, you go on social media, which is like so much easier to get these, like, quick hits. It's actually crazy because we're re watching Mad Men right now and just like seeing what a world looked like before.

A (5:22)

Phones where people actually talk to each other.

B (5:25)

Yeah, it's crazy.

A (5:25)

And read books, but literally, take this piece of advice. Say, whatever your difficult task is, tell your brain, even though you know you're lying to yourself, I'm just going to do five minutes of writing and then just start doing it for five minutes. And then once you get into it, you'll find your brain and your body love it. Right. But it's that starting. It's that kind of angst about starting that stops us and gets us distracted.

B (5:46)

So true. I also want to talk about, spend a lot of time in Korea and this is now our second time back to Japan. And I wanted to talk about the differences that we've experienced between the two cultures and how Korea is really becoming a leader on the brand front. And for those who haven't been able to see this part of the world, how interesting it is because there's not enough people talking about this kind of world emergence in branding and what that looks like.

A (6:12)

Yeah, like I, I have a different opinion. I think Korea's brand is worse than Japan's brand, but Korea is more commercial and so they're, they emulate US Markets much more than Japan, which Japan is proud of its own. Japan's brand is its culture.

B (6:26)

Yeah.

A (6:26)

And so they're very proud of their culture and they don't feel that they need to emulate the west the same way. Whereas Korea is, in Asia, the kind of center of American branding philosophy.

B (6:37)

I think it's more complicated than that. I did a Post about this on my page. And if you're someone that's struggling with creating content, I recommend that you check it out. And it's. I basically broke down how I plan to create content when we're traveling for work because it doesn't come easy to me. And like I've really had to create a structure in order to execute properly. And one of the things that we do in preparation is we hire a full time videographer if we're not going to travel with one of our own and we have them do a scouting report. And what was interesting in talking with the videographer we hired Koyo.

A (7:07)

Shout out to koio.

B (7:08)

Shout out to Kyo koio. He was great. But one of the things that he actually ended up articulating to me in person is how complicated it was for him to find a scouting report. Because Japan doesn't value fast execution. Like they don't. They value like tradition and repeating legacy over time and respecting. Yes. And they also, they respect a shared collective. So this like idea of like branding being like individual and compete and like sticking out is actually against the Japanese culture. So it was really interesting in having that conversation with him because I was sending him Korean equivalents of like, hey, find this because this is in Korea. And like I expect Japan to have versions of this and it was really hard for him to find it.

A (7:54)

I like that though, because they're not a popup culture. It's not just new, new, new. They actually kind of look down their nose at, at people who are seeking newness all the time. They like built in tradition and.

B (8:05)

Well, that's where I was going to say is more complicated than what you were saying. Because what he was saying is that actually in Japan they respect the really well executed Western brands because that subscribes to their culture. Like Dior, Louis Vuitton. Those are heritage brands from another culture that from their persp have earned it and are extremely. So they, they prefer to have brand validation for where brands have been done the best opposed to seeing themselves. Yeah, exactly. Like there's not a Japanese equivalent for skims. And that was one of the craziest things with the difference is that in Korea, like we've gone to Korea three years in a row. Brands that we will go and see in Korea, we won't be able to find again the next year. Like they, they, they kind of are like these stars, like they show up and they're big and they're bright and they're crazy on social media and then they like disappear and then like, the next one pops up, it's really more tied to that. And which is interesting because Korea and America have a very close relationship.

A (9:08)

Yeah, hugely. Like, American have dominated Korea since the 1950s after the Korean War. Right. So they've had a huge interest influence on culture and economics, which has made them quite successful, but also, I think, has turned them away a little bit from their own story.

B (9:23)

Well, and it's also why Korea is kind of like having such a moment, obviously here, but also in the east, because it's kind of the closest to that New York experience when you live in Singapore, Hong Kong or Malaysia. So it. It really has that American feel. But what was. In this quest of analyzing the branding, there was two other things that really stuck out that were interesting. One was cosmetic, which is the big. The huge beauty brand. And it's like, basically like the Sephora of Japan. And what was fascinating is that the entire store is focused around a ranking system. So they have an entire dome in the middle of the store, and the face wash to the eye cream to the skin cream is all ranked first, second, and third. And what was crazy is he went to Kate, which is like their kind of like Summer Fridays or like an independent brand that's number one in Japan. And I saw the ranking system again. It was like mascara first, second, third, makeup remover face first, second, and third. And in talking to Koya, I'm like, this is so fascinating. Like, why is this a thing? He's like, in Japan, the collective, the opinion of the group is the most important thing. So everything is focused around because they do the ranking at Cosme. That's where the Japanese want to buy their makeup, because the group has decided that that's the best, that's the second, and that's the third.

A (10:46)

It's interesting because people follow trends in. In North America, like, what the group is liking. But I feel like it's a more. More honest assessment in Japan. Like, they really kind of subscribe to the wisdom of the crowds. Like, it's not. It's not a ranking based on newness. It's a ranking based on what they like.

B (11:03)

The thing, though, that's interesting is Cosme does change it every week. So the rankings do change weekly. But what's. I disagree. I think in the west, it's more about discovering what people love, but not necessarily being a collective love. It's that discoverability. It's like trying to find something new, like talking about what face cream do you use versus, like, it's about. There's an obsession towards what is proven but tied to discoverability opposed to uniformity.

A (11:33)

Well, they're chasing trends and popularity. Right. So whatever is popular, people are buying. That's why the personal brand is. That's why I don't think it's that relevant of a point in Japan. They're just putting it down number one seller. Right. As opposed to in North America. People are always trying to figure out who's the most popular at the time. It's just. That's why I don't.

B (11:54)

But I think that the difference though is that in North America, you're constantly consuming. The idea in Japan is that you don't need to test multiple face creams. You just go in. These are the three options. You test 1, 2 and 3, and then based off of what you like the most from the three, you buy that and you use it to the end. Like it's not a this. It's not this massive consumption concept. And you're right, obviously there's. There's a desire to, like, if the lip balm is going viral, trying it, but that's. But it's less about it being objectively number one to it, kind of looking the best and being the most alluring.

A (12:30)

But does that mean the Japanese don't have brand loyalty? Like, if they go in and the rankings have changed, do they buy something different?

B (12:37)

Yeah. So they don't have brand loyalty.

A (12:39)

They seem to be very brand loyal to me and that if they like something, they stick with it for a long time.

B (12:44)

Well, what was interesting is when I was doing a lot of research, going and prepping content, Cosme West Moon, that kept coming up in the, like, the beauty space. And a lot of the products that I saw people talking about in the videos were not the ones that were being ranked. And the store was packed, like, literally packed. Like, I felt guilty bringing Koyo into the store because I'm like, man, this man is going to lose it. Like, it was like literally like sardines, like, packed to the brim. So it shows you that there is still a desire to be going in. And it was all Japanese people, like, going in and buying it. And the products have changed so well. And that was the next brand I wanted to talk about, which was Muji, because Muji has actually become really big in North America. For those who don't know, it's like a Japanese retailer. But what was interesting is that Muji stance, it's a much longer Japanese name, which I can't remember, but it's like Muji Japanese and it basically stands for no brand, great quality. And that's why if you see the four Japanese characters under the Muji name, that's what they stand for. So it's no brand, no logo, good quality. And it's fascinating that that is the number one store in Japan that it like, has no brand. It's focused on being great quality. Everything is super minimalistic. They even sell groceries. Like, they've taken the IKEA concept on steroids.

A (14:06)

But it's. It sounds like my psychological operations days. It actually is a brand.

B (14:11)

Totally.

A (14:11)

Like, Muji is a brand that says it's not a brand?

B (14:14)

No, they say it's no logo. No logo, good quality.

A (14:18)

I think said no brand, no logo.

B (14:20)

Well, I'm taking it kind of a step further because it's very minimalistic. So the, the Japanese conversion is no logo, good quality. To me, it's more like a no name, like a no brand. Right. Because the idea is that they have a hotel, they have furniture, they have clothing, they have beauty, they have housewares, they have groceries, they have a bakery.

A (14:42)

So then the Muji is that they just. They select good quality things. Like, so the. The brand messaging is, if it's in Muji, it's good quality.

B (14:49)

It was so. Yes. And it was so funny because when we met the videographer Koyo, he was like, this is very hard for me to be in the store because I just want to buy everything. And it was like the most plain stuff. And I'm like, this place, you can't control yourself here. And.

A (15:06)

But that's a cultural thing.

B (15:07)

Totally.

A (15:08)

They like good things, well priced. This is kind of the opposite of bougie. Muji is the opposite of bougie.

B (15:14)

Nailed it.

A (15:15)

Right?

B (15:16)

But what I also love too is we were talking and he's like, yes. Like, so his wife works for Sapporo, huge company in Japan. Whiskey. No.

A (15:23)

Yeah. I think it's Satori, the biggest Japanese whiskey.

B (15:25)

Whiskey.

A (15:26)

Great whiskey.

B (15:26)

So he's like, we do well. And he's like, I own 10 pieces of clothing. And I'm like, koyo, I brought more to Japan than you own, period. And he was like, literally couldn't control himself in Muji. He's like, it's just too much. I love the store. And I'm like, this is crazy.

A (15:41)

Yeah, like, you didn't want to go to a luxury store. Like, the Japanese citizen likes Muji because it's got good stuff. You know what I mean? Like, that's the Mecca for him.

B (15:49)

Well, that was what was so interesting when we went to all of the Japanese vintage stores, which if you don't know is like the best in the world. Because the Japanese take such great care of well made things and they respect the western brand. So whenever they bring something to consignment, it's literally like it's brand new. So. So it's from a point like price point perspective to quality, you're getting the best. And all he kept saying to me is, he's like, I don't get it. I don't get why these Birkins are so expensive. He's like, I don't get it. And I'm like, coyo, there's just some things I can't explain to you. But he's right.

A (16:25)

Let's not talk about our Birkin discussions. I caved. But anyhow, we'll keep going.

B (16:29)

We'll keep going, guys. It's a great place. We love Japan. But I also want to talk about when we learned about the pouring from your friends in your class.

A (16:40)

So I was in. One of the reasons why I went to Japan is I did this Berkeley course for executive coaching and scaling where there was 20 people selected and we got to do this cool stuff there. But one of the head instructors, this amazing Japanese businessman, Satoshi Satoshi, just Yamamoto, the best day, best name ever. Great human. But he was describing how to pour a bottle. I think we got a video of it. Because they respect the work that any company puts into its brand that you cannot pour a bottle. Like if I was pouring Camille champagne, it would be a big faux pas to have the label hidden. So you have to turn the label up so it's visible to everybody. You have to pour with two hands and the person receiving takes it with two hands. But you're honoring whatever the product is by showing the label as you pour it. It was like a small, a small act that shows how much they value the work.

B (17:33)

Craftsmanship.

A (17:34)

Yeah, that, you know, the business is done, the brand is like, it was beautiful. We should pay more attention to that, no less.

B (17:40)

Well, that's what I love about the Japanese approach is that they hate waste. They believe in minimalism, but they want the things that they have to be well made and they deeply respect their, the craft that has gone into whatever you're consuming. And it's even to like when you eat, like we learned during like the tea ceremony that you're supposed to make the last sip when you're done your matcha loud like because you, you're giving, you're giving recognition, recognition that you finished it to the end. And it. You appreciated the ceremony of the tea, which. And the same thing with eating ramen. You're supposed to eat, eat ramen loudly because it's out of respect that because they hand make the broth and they hand make the noodles and it's about showing that you're enjoying the food. Which is when you think about, you know, whatever we do in our life, whether it's raising your kids or whether it's when you're working as a service provider or you selling a product, like how nice it is to have the recognition for the time that you've put into it.

A (18:46)

The green tea place you went in like it was pretty much just green tea, but the best green tea. But the ceremony of all it was slow it down. But it was a great lesson that when you finish your cup of green tea, the last thing is you do, you go right. And even if it's not heard, it's just part of the ceremony of recognizing the work that's done. I think we could learn a lot as a culture. But also in your business.

B (19:07)

Yeah.

A (19:08)

Like if you have a business, like take the time to show gratitude and recognize the customer and they should do it to you. But even handing a business card, right. Hands like two hands face up and you pass it and then you take it with two hands and you bow like you're bestowing upon somebody a courtesy of recognition. And I think that companies in the west that, that, that take a lesson from that could actually really change their interaction with their customers by slowing down to show gratitude and bestow respect.

B (19:37)

What I love about the tr, like the tradition with all things Japanese is how present they want you to be, how much you need to be present. Presently, enjoying presently. Acknowledging everything is with the utmost respect. Even like when you just seeing someone and bowing like you bow to everybody like it's, it's such a way more than just like a hi. Like you're actually taking a moment to like acknowledge their presence and bow to.

A (20:03)

Them like it's I honor your existence.

B (20:06)

Yeah.

A (20:06)

But like ask yourself, do you honor your customers when they come in? If you have a business, do you actually honor their existence? Do you make them feel present? Not enough and all that. I bet you most of us don't do it enough.

B (20:17)

Not enough. And that's also the other thing too that's really quite cool is that you can really go anywhere in Japan. Like you can eat at any restaurant and you're going to have a great meal because they like, they're just trained to take such pride in what they execute on so that they're contributing to the shared values of the group. And we also learned too that you can't be fired in Japan, but the standard is so high that you, you can't kind of like have half ass anything. Like you have to do everything to the fullest.

A (20:46)

Yeah, I'm not sure about that. The lawyers that I met there didn't tell me that. But I know that they demand excellence.

B (20:52)

They demand excellence.

A (20:53)

So I couldn't see them entertaining somebody who wasn't from the first order of employee to the top. I think that I didn't meet anybody who was not 100% committed to their job.

B (21:04)

Yeah. But I think that also is, it's also in the selection process. Like in order to get a job is so hard to get it. Because even Coya was saying, like, you, you don't really leave your job. Like, it's, you're, you're, you're kind of there for life. And they don't, they don't desire insane growth. Like, they're not looking for massive career growth. They're looking for like stability over time. Like, stability is the most respected thing. Like staying in a position and like perfecting it over time is like, is the mindset not just. And he was like asking questions about how hard it is to like keep employees. And I'm like, yeah, like, they all want to start their own company and they're like, they all want to work. He's like, that's crazy to me. He's like, just to think that you can't, you're not committed to putting at least 10 years into working at an agency is nuts.

A (21:49)

It's a very different culture.

B (21:50)

Very different culture. The other thing too, that was actually really quite interesting is the difference between how much Koreans hate being on video and how much pride the Japanese took because we did like an interview series where we interviewed a bunch of really cool brands in Japan. You know, what was a brand to them and like, what it meant. And they were literally the best question, the best answers to the questions we've had from anybody. Yeah, anybody. We've asked hundreds of like top, top, top, like second in command at Ogilvy and these answers from these Japanese bits. But they were so beautiful and long, so thoughtful.

A (22:23)

But they feel honored that you asked them.

B (22:26)

They did.

A (22:26)

So if you ask them that, they're not going to be trite about it. Right. They're actually going to think about it. But it's the thoughtfulness behind the answers was really inspiring.

B (22:35)

Oh my gosh. It was just. Can't get over it. Can't get over it. Okay, so I want to talk about, you know. Okay, actually before we move on, because there's two other things that I want to chat about. The Bvlvari Hotel. So we checked out the Bvlvari Hotel in Toronto. Toronto in Tokyo. Some work stuff has come up that we're hoping.

A (23:01)

Manifest.

B (23:02)

Manifest with that particular. And we wanted to check it out because they don't have the Bvari hotel chains in North America. And it really was a master class in brand extensions and experiencing a brand360.

A (23:17)

So I never really understood the brand in North America because it just seemed like a jewelry brand. And I was familiar with like a snake bracelet or something like that. But the hotel extension, brand extension I thought was fascinating. And I'll let you talk more about it.

B (23:31)

I was worried going to it because I thought it was going to be cheesy because I do know that the. So basically a lot of brands have gotten gone into like licensing their name because there's so much demand in Asia and the Middle east for brands, especially like these Western brands. So a lot you're seeing like Mason Margiela just opened a condo in Dubai. You have like Fendi that has a hotel in Miami. Like, this isn't a new thing. And I was worried that it was going to be cheesy because I didn't expect a brand to take it so seriously. And I think it's such a great case study for when your product is high priced or when you want to provide a more experiential way for someone to experience your brand. Because when we were in Japan, Muji also had a hotel. So it's not necessarily only luxury, but what's cool about it is it's a different brand. Different brand totally. But what's cool about it is think about how much time would you spend with the Bvari brand? Like the max you spend with them is an hour. If you go to their showroom and you buy a piece of jewelry or if you're doing a custom piece, which is a very small percentage in the world, think about how like limited time someone is spending with that brand. But when you create a hotel, you have someone's attention for 48 hours. Right? Like it's, it's. It's an entire breakfast, lunch and dinner. Like you're sleeping with the brand. Literally. Right? It's. It's a total. It completely transforms your loyalty to it because you're able to experience it In a different way.

A (25:05)

It's interesting you said sleeping with the brand, literally, because when you, when you said some brands license themselves, so if they license themselves to a hotel or something, then to me it's a one night stand. But if you actually commit to your branding extension, then you can get commitment to me. So we slept with Bulgaria or whatever they're called.

B (25:25)

Bvari, bavari, bavari.

A (25:27)

But like, to me, it's not a one night stand because I really got. I saw how much they were committed to the experience and it really made me appreciate their brand. And I thought it was genius to have these select hotels that are very high end because if somebody stays there, they generally will have some resources. But like, it exposes you to the brand in a way that was so positive because I didn't. How else do I get to know a brand like that?

B (25:51)

How?

A (25:52)

Period?

B (25:52)

Right.

A (25:52)

I don't want to walk into stores, like just, you know, and have a salesperson. But by staying there, I really got the sense that they were 1000% committed to what their brand was and doing things with excellence.

B (26:04)

I've always found the brand to be fine. I respected it, but I never paid much attention to it. Like, I was more a Van Cleef or a Cartier, probably because Bvlvari came across to me as almost more exotic. Whether it was more like Asian because of the connection with the snake or more European because it. It never quite crossed my desk in the same way. But the level that they executed from a design perspective to how they spent money with so much int. And at a level I've never seen before. It was the nicest hotel I've ever seen in my life. Like it was, but not because it was extravagant. Yes, it was so well done. It was in the details. And I really think the theme of this podcast should be in the details because when we get to like, gentle monster. But like, guys, like in the lobby, they had a bonsai tree and the lobby attendant was telling me that they changed the bonsai and every single week so that they continue to get the right amount of sunlight because these bonsais are over 100 years old.

A (27:17)

But it wasn't just the bonsai. Like, it was a room that was dedicated to show the best bonsais in jail.

B (27:23)

Yeah, like, and the bonsais were with.

A (27:25)

The lighting that was just gorgeous.

B (27:27)

Oh my God. It was just. And the bonsai so bonsai. What he said is that the whole team gets so excited because they don't know what bonsai is going to be next. They find out on Friday when the bonsai master delivers the bonsai. And they fall in love with the bonsai every week. And they don't know when they're going to see it again because the bonsai master has to decide when the bonsai is ready to leave the bonsai garden based on how its leaves are doing, how the arms are doing. And he showed me. He was my favorite bonsai. It was this bonsai that was shaped like the hakusai wave. And it, like looked just like the wave. And I just. It was just branding on steroids. Like, it was just so well done. And then we went to the bar, and the bar was on the 45th floor. And we had to enter into a different hallway and a different elevator chamber that was pre, pre pushed. And the woman who brought us up to the 45th floor was wearing Bvlvari jewelry. And we get up to the 45th floor and the design is just if you haven't.

A (28:26)

Because it's Italian. Like, they really have gosh, they have taste. They have, like, they know how to put shit together.

B (28:32)

Like, when a Japanese get together with Italian design and they make an American cheeseburger, I can die.

A (28:39)

We had the best cheeseburger, like, I could die, literally at that hotel. Best cheeseburger in my life.

B (28:43)

And then we shared it, which was like a cardinal S will always regret not eating that other half of the burger for the rest of my life. It was so good.

A (28:52)

Can I get back to the bonsai master for a second?

B (28:54)

Please? Please do.

A (28:54)

I like a little bit of the Japanese Zen samurai culture. But what I love about that culture, one of the lessons we can take is that if you are excellent at your job, you. You command respect whether you're a janitor or whether you're a CEO. And at this beautiful high, high end hotel, they worship the bonsai master.

B (29:13)

They do.

A (29:13)

Even though he's not a millionaire.

B (29:15)

Nope.

A (29:15)

But he is. He just loves his job. It's kind of like hero dreams of sushi. Like, I love that culture that says, just be the best at whatever you do and you get respect and admiration. It's not only about money. It was beautiful.

B (29:28)

No, it's a. It's about a joy of craft. But before I move off the bonsai I had while I was alone, I went in Ginza and there's this super cool store called Tradman's Bonsai.

A (29:39)

And.

B (29:39)

And this bonsai master has created this like, streetwear brand. And basically the idea is combining tradition with. With modern fashion and this Tradman Banzai company, they have all these cool clothing, they have these like super cool design. It feels kind of like stussy. But the bonsais are being used with like Cartier, Louis Vuitton, like Givenchy. Like they're bringing bonsais to these super high end fashion shows stores to like merge this kind of craft of like new with the old. And it was so cool to learn that bonsais can be up to 500 years old. But ones that are over 300 are obviously like very rare because it's have to been passed down for a very long time and how much these like bonsai masters are like so zen. Like they own these gardens and they tend to like. And do you know that any tree can be a bonsai? It's just, it's the way that they like dwarf it, they stunt it. Almost every tree can be a bonsai.

A (30:44)

There goes Camille again.

B (30:45)

Oh boy.

A (30:45)

Saying like a willow tree can be a bonsai.

B (30:47)

In the research I did, it said any tree could be a bonsai. Now I'm sure there's maybe a few trees that can, but a lot of trees can. A lot of, A lot of trees can be bonsais. Let's, let's end it there.

A (30:57)

I'll fact check you here.

B (30:58)

Oh boy.

A (30:59)

Okay, but before we go on.

B (31:00)

Okay.

A (31:00)

My name is Philip. You don't hear from me a lot on the podcast, but I love to be here. But if there's something I could ask you is to like, share or follow. Because our goal is to be the number one branding podcast in the world and we appreciate sharing all our insights with you. But do us a favor, share, follow, make a comment and help us spread the word.

B (31:16)

Thank you so much for that. We don't even have any advertisers. We do this literally because we're obsessed with branding. So help a fellow out. Okay. So I think that's really pretty much it on those fronts. Do you want to talk about anything about your leadership experiences before we move on to Gentle Monster?

A (31:32)

Wonderful experience. Going to Japan and you know, learning in the Berkeley environment, which to be honest, Berkeley, great brand. Maybe we can talk about it like built a brand over a long time. And so when I hear Berkeley, I think, when I hear Berkeley, I think like giant software startups, companies, excellence in academia.

B (31:52)

I think about the, the American way of branding universities and how good of a job they've done of maintaining this idea of these school systems.

A (32:01)

Yeah. And so institutions, you know, I'm a little worried about it because it didn't seem as focused on performance as merit. You know what I mean? But going there, no.

B (32:10)

Merit is gone. Merit has left the building in the United States of America.

A (32:15)

And, like, at many. Thank you for saying that, because I didn't want to be the one who said it.

B (32:18)

No, we, like, let's bring merit back. Everybody cannot be a leader. Everyone cannot be the best. Like, that's like the. Like, that's where we actually can learn from the. To be in a program in Japan that says everybody is equal is so counterintuitive to the joy of the journey in which you can learn in that country of, like, you are never the best. You will spend your entire life achieving. And the people who do the extra work should come out on top, which should tell you they want to do more.

A (32:45)

Yeah. Like, for example, a bonsai master. Somebody can't just declare themselves a bonsai master and be treated equal to somebody who spent 50 years tending the garden. Right. And so what I found interesting is they talk about leadership. They're like, everybody is a leader. Okay, everybody can be a leader. But it's kind of like, no, it's Kumbaya.

B (33:05)

Fundamentally against the semantics of the word. Someone has to lead to be a leader. Otherwise, it's a line.

A (33:10)

In order to lead, you have to learn how to follow. But I find, like, there's this culture now that says, hey, like, nobody should really have to follow because we're all equal. We're all leaders. And, like, if you're all leaders and nobody's actually leading, like, and you have to earn trust to be a leader. And it was just a very odd dynamic for me going into this Berkeley kind of academic environment where I actually felt I was judged by a lot of the instructors. Like, they actually. They actually looked at me. They looked down at me, and you were there writing. And they just prejudged me. They thought I was an asshole. And at the end, they apologized and said, hey, sorry for judging you. But it was. It was a very weird culture to go into. I was very hungry to learn something different and vigorous. But you lose me a little bit when you start off and say, everybody's a leader, as opposed to having to earn being a leader.

B (33:56)

We're not celebrating the fabric of society. Like, we need people to be exceptional followers. We need great leaders, and we need people who might have the softer, hard skills to work harder at it in order to develop, like, a better society. Like, if we just tell everybody that everyone is great, everyone is amazing, everyone should be on the Runway. Everyone, everyone should be this. Where does society go? Like, what happened to, like, the work? That you get joy in doing the work? It's about the journey. It's not about the destination. That's why if you talk to. If you read all of these autobiographies, whether it's celebrities or business owners, the best years were the hard years. It was the years where you had to face the most discomfort, the biggest hardships. It's. It's why when I was struggling with writing a book, you said, okay, we did our own coaching session. And you're like, who do you want to be like? Or where do you want to be remembered for? And the names that I talked about, they're like, where? You're like, yeah, they have six books. Do the fucking work. And it's when I hear that and I reframe it, it's easy to not show up because I'm bruised and swollen. But that's not how you get to the top. Like, you. You have to be imperfect.

A (35:11)

I feel like some brands, once they're established and they're kind of on the downside, the people in charge of the brand, it kind of gets populated with people who aren't focused on meritocracy or the hard work. And so, you know, they. When you talk about eq, it's not eq if you just tell everybody they're amazing. Like, that's not eq, Just affirmations every day, just being amazing. Everybody's amazing, everybody's equal. Like, that's not EQ is like working with a dynamic group of people. This particular course was amazing because there's people from nine countries like Saudi Arabia, South America, Asia, North America. So the best experience for me was working with these professionals from around the world and learning from them. But the delivery of the brand from Berkeley, you can see it's moved away from merit. And more about everybody is equal.

B (35:57)

Well, I think it's a huge issue with society. A big video that was super viral this week was the University of Washington. This course brought in this only fans model. And the huge clip that's online is that she was talking about how that she had to do a number two in a box and this person online paid her $10,000 so she could ship her feces and that they could, like, eat it or play with it. Who the fuck knows? Anyways, the point being is, like, the comments were exploding. They're like, think about how much tuition is at the University of Washington. Like, what are you learning in what degree from an OnlyFans model that's effectively cutting corners and is making an absurd amount of money because they're selling themselves.

A (36:43)

I actually think you can learn from that. But what the video that, that struck me about education, if we go down this path this week, is great comment from Scott Galloway, who is taught, who's a professor at nyu.

B (36:55)

Yeah.

A (36:57)

And he's actually saying that the student loans, the people who should underwrite the student loans should be the universities. So the government shouldn't be providing the student loans because the universities are taking advantage of government loans and producing programs that are useless for making money because they know the government will lend to it. So they're just creating junk programs that are. People are getting 200 grand in debt and not making any money. But if you made the universities responsible for the student loans, if there was a default, well, they might focus more on producing useful degrees.

B (37:29)

So true.

A (37:30)

Rather than these retarded degrees.

B (37:32)

So true.

A (37:33)

Right. And that type of second order thinking, it's like it's not common in our society right now because it's, it's drowned out by nonsense talk like it's killing me.

B (37:43)

I could not agree more. You nailed it. Oh, you know what else I want to talk about? We were at the Peninsula in Tokyo. Obviously we were in search of a great bar, but we found it at Bilvari and Peninsula Bar was pretty good. It was, it was good. It was good. But I mean, like, I wouldn't be, like I wouldn't write home about it, you know, like, it was not bad. And so there was a few times on the trip where I saw the Loewe On Cloud sneakers and I was kind of going through the motions in my brain of navigating what I think about collaborations like Loewe and On Cloud, whether I think it's strategic, where I think it fits in the market. And in the end, what I found was really fascinating is how big of a shift we've gone to in kind of like upscale athleisure, like how much there is an obsession with like comfortability and how Loewe basically was able to kind of fill the gap by providing successful men an elevated kind of basic. And I wanted to work like talk with you on it because I feel like you've got a very different perspective.

A (38:56)

One of our interesting points is like a brand just slapped on something. A logo slapped on something is nothing. So because one of the guys in my cohort from Saudi Arabia had these, these on clouds and when I looked at them, I'm like, you're an idiot. Like, just buy on Clouds like. And that's the difference between what we talked about earlier, licensing versus commitment. Licensing means I'm just throwing a logo on something that already exists. And then you pay 50% more. Well, maybe that means you're. You're not the smartest person in the world. Like, you made a lot of money, but you're buying, you're buying the exact same shoe with a sticker on it, essentially. Right. If they wanted to commit to Athleisure, build the best frickin, like, invest in it. Right. But our society has kind of lost its mind in that people who want to be cool will spend extra money on the same product with a sticker on it that has a brand that they think is valuable. And so it's working because people are buying it. But I don't think it's intelligent. I don't think it's necessarily good for their brand just to slap it sticker on something.

B (39:51)

I feel really conflicted by it because on one hand there is men's. Men's casual wear and men's accessories is booming. Like, it's really never been bigger. There's less of a expectation for men to wear suits in the workplace and they're moving more to this, like, lower piano, like Brioni Brunello Cucinelli, where it's like you still look put together, but you're comfortable. And what I think is interesting is that's what the gap that the Loewe On Cloud collaboration solves is that you're still wearing On Clouds. You're comfortable, but the idea is that the design is more refined outside of just slapping the logo on, like the colors they chose, the way they designed the shoe, it's a slightly more sleek look.

A (40:39)

To me, it made the On Clouds look worse because On Cloud has beautiful, pure design. And then all of a sudden there's like this writing on it and I'm like, it just goes against the whole aesthetic of the shoe. It's it. It is, I will say ridiculous, but if people want to spend more money.

B (40:54)

But it fills a gap.

A (40:55)

Yeah, but the people who are buying that are probably trust fund kids because people actually make money. Don't waste money on stuff like that.

B (41:02)

We got our sound bite guys.

A (41:03)

They put their money back into the business or they invest, but it's usually somebody who is born into cash who buys this ridiculous type of stuff. Because these collaborations without commitment are not a good way to, to advance your brand. It's a shortcut. We'll do a collaboration without any commitment. We'll slap it on there and we'll think it works, you know, I don't know.

B (41:23)

Well, with that perspective, what do you think about Chanel's sneakers? So Chanel didn't partner with someone else. They came out with their own sneaker line, which a lot of more refined women are wearing, especially older women that can't wear like heels or like, you know, fancier shoes. So you're seeing a lot of like well put together women wearing these kind of Chanel sneakers. What do you think about if Loewe had came out with their own sneakers and didn't collab with on cloud?

A (41:50)

I think that would be better. But you have to do it well. You have to execute like the whole like the Bovary Hotel we went to, they didn't just slap their logo on a Marriott and call it something else. Right. They actually invest. Like the design of every square foot of that hotel was deliberate.

B (42:04)

Yeah.

A (42:05)

And they created a hotel experience that was incredibly memorable. If you're going to do that with a sneaker, then do the same thing. If your brand is worth it. But a collaboration without commitment. If the Chanel sneaker is better than an on cloud or a honor or whatever, that's good. Right?

B (42:18)

But you know, even Hoka Hoka.

A (42:22)

Yeah. Honors hona words.

B (42:24)

You're so bad at names it's crazy. Next thing I want to talk, I wanted to pick your brain on is this woman. Her name is Lauren Hogarth. I believe my phone died. So I can fact check that later. But she came out with this. Basically it's like luxury jewelry encasing for the Oura ring. So it's like a 14 karat gold cover that has diamonds on it. And I wanted to talk about the future of elevated wellness technology and if we think this is a sustainable trend.

A (42:58)

You know, I always thought the Oura ring was its own brand in that if you're wearing it, you're kind of establishing yourself as somebody who's interested in long longevity.

B (43:07)

Yeah, right, Totally.

A (43:08)

Which kind of indirectly can say, okay, I'm kind of in that billionaire class, you know what I mean? Like it looks like and sometimes I.

B (43:13)

Don'T eat french fries all the time.

A (43:14)

Sometimes I think wearing something that is not perfectly aesthetic is its own message. And you can see that in some styles. Right. Where the things are extra clunky or bigger. I thought that the Oura ring had its own style.

B (43:26)

It's on vibe.

A (43:27)

Right. But from for this lady, like this is just great entrepreneurship. Right. Where there's a lot of people who wear it and want to have a little bit more bling. So she just found a gap and made something that's. So I take my hat off to her for scaling in her own way.

B (43:41)

The reason why I really like it is I think one of the things that holds me back from wearing it more is the esthetic. And when I think about all of the monies that I've spent, probably the best use of dollars isn't wearing a Cartier ring, but is in elevating a piece of jewelry that has a plus plus, plus factor. So, like, when I think about when I saw the encasing of it, like, with the diamonds, I was like, that, to me, is a better use of a Christmas gift than like asking for wink, wink, another Bvlvari snake ring. Because I'm making my aura ring nicer. Like, when I look at your whoop. Like, your whoop looks cool when you're in an all black outfit. Otherwise, I think it looks ugly. So, like, if you. I mean, you would never do this, but if you could put it in a bling encasing, then I would probably wear it more.

A (44:35)

I'm trying to remember that concept we talked about before from one culture where it's kind of a travesty to add more layers onto something that's already beautiful. Remember there was something that.

B (44:48)

Oh, yeah. I mean, it sounds super Japanese. Like, for this Japanese episode is the worst direction to go on my part. So I heard it. I heard it out loud, you know.

A (44:55)

Like, when there's something beautiful, like, you don't add more to it. And so I feel like the Oura ring was designed in simplicity to do. When I see somebody with an aura ring, they have a brand. When I see somebody with an aura ring that's got tons of diamonds on it, I think they're kind of retarded.

B (45:08)

I mean, I'm here.

A (45:08)

I think, no, you're wasting money that should be in stock. Stocks or in your business or in inventory or in marketing or give it to charity. But if you're putting diamonds on your.

B (45:15)

Aura, I call it fashion. Okay, But I. You. You make a good point. Like, you make a good point. I just think it's an interesting direction for. For where wellness is going. Like, to me, there is a gap in the market, and it. It makes sense to me.

A (45:30)

But I feel. I feel like luxury is going away from bling. I feel like even the lawyer Piana designs, like, it's just quality bling is fine.

B (45:37)

It's. It's over. Like, over logos. So, like, the Gucci came Up with an aura ring. That's dumb. Who, like Gucci is. Is trashy. Like, we don't want Gucci, but having just like an aura ring. She had like two very simplistic lines of diamonds. Like, it's not like a full diamond, like bubble ring. So it.

A (45:57)

And it's not like a hublot surrounded all by diamonds.

B (46:00)

No, no. It's not one of those, you know. But I do think that the over focus on logos are moving. It's clear. Like, the numbers are there. Like we. It's. It's no longer cool to wear all logos because anyone can wear all logos. And they're lessening and lessening the price point for that from a. From an entry standpoint. So it's no longer like, only rich people can be decked out in logos. It's like you often see the opposite. It's like people who don't really have money are the ones that are like decked out head to toe in like the Gucci GS and like the Louis Vuitton LVs. Like, it's not cool now to wear logos.

A (46:29)

What's that sweater you're wearing right there?

B (46:30)

Oh, my Kith Japan sweater. So we.

A (46:34)

I have one as well.

B (46:35)

We got matching Kith Japan sweaters. So I went. I went. I love. I love K think they do such a great job. I love how they curate things, how it's so unique. You never know what you're going to get. We showed up right when it opened because of jet lag, and they were. They had just released that capsule that this one day. So I got this, like, there was a whole Kith Japan collection and it.

A (46:58)

Was sold out within an hour and a half. So if anybody wants to buy, we will auction it for $25,000 after I.

B (47:06)

Wear it a few times. So last thing I want to chat about is let's talk about Gentle Monster. Because we went back to Gentle Monster and it is just every time we go. I'm never sick of it. So it's actually really interesting is when we went this time, it was like Philip Re fell in love again. He had so many astute points that I want you to touch on. But I was just. I'm at. Gentle Monster is my favorite brand in the world, like, full stop. So when I went, I was like, yeah, no, like I'm home. Like, I, you know, I expected it to consistently get great, which I probably shouldn't take for. For granted because businesses constantly disappoint. But let's touch on those pieces.

A (47:45)

Well, Gentle Monster is it's a glasses company that has become so much more.

B (47:50)

So much more.

A (47:52)

There's a lot of lessons. You can look at it just on its face and say, oh, it's got very cool stuff in there. But if you look. Attention to detail is kind of the theme of this podcast as well. Because in Japan, when you're looking to. To stand out in a cluttered world at every level, the last 5% kind of matters.

B (48:10)

Yeah, it's the Olympic difference.

A (48:11)

And that's something that we noticed is like, when paying attention to detail. So when we were in Toronto, I showed you that store that was kind of trying to copy it, the Arctics jacket. You know where they were like.

B (48:22)

No, that was TNA Super Puff. They had a. So at the Aritzia on Bloor street, they have this big installation of this puff jacket where the arms were moving. And it's such a thimble of what Gentle Monster does.

A (48:35)

It was kind of like a fast food version of it. It's like, let's make something. But when you go in there, they actually, they curated artistic things that were very fascinating, but they paid such attention to detail in how they made it.

B (48:47)

Like an expense that you can't justify. Like, it's a true. It's a true example of brand over marketing. Because the art in the Gentle Monster store is better than what you get.

A (49:01)

In an art gallery.

B (49:02)

At an art gallery.

A (49:03)

Yeah. And the roi, how do you capture ROI on that if you're looking for quarterly returns? But it's just everybody who goes into that store is amazed at the investment they did in making a feel, and everybody is taking videos of it and.

B (49:16)

Sharing it all day.

A (49:17)

Right. But it was fascinating that they started off in glasses and became so stylish in that. But now they're expanding into house new flat. And I, I predict that Gentle Monster could move to kind of an Amazon brand at some point because of the way, like, maybe not as mass market, but they are really like a universal retailer.

B (49:37)

I. I don't think Amazon's the right example because that's a marketplace, but more like a. More of like a Muji, like a universal retailer. Like, extremely artistic.

A (49:46)

You just. You just go there to enjoy life and, and look at like, what they produce is fun and.

B (49:53)

But let's slow down because we, we kind of jumped ahead. So Gentle Monster, if you haven't heard of this brand, is a absolute masterclass in doing things that don't make sense. So the story is this. Hankook Kim was wanting to create a sunglass company and basically the sunglasses are, are owned by two oligarchies. So all of like your Cartier sunglasses, your Tiffany sunglasses are not done by the brand. They're licen to these two. Luxottica. Yeah. And one other manufacturer. And he wanted to enter into the space because he noticed that especially in Korea, like a lot of people wear glasses and they've got smaller, smaller heads. So they needed to create glasses that fit the Korean head shape, the more narrow face better. And he started in doing B2B and he realized that no, like none of these glasses retailers were buying his product because why would they? There's two people that fund their entire business. So he got an investment.

A (50:52)

Distribution channels.

B (50:52)

They own everything. Yes. So he got an investment of $100,000, gave away 60% of the company, and went balls to the walls with this crazy art gallery installation in like 2018. And they instantly blew up. Like everybody showed up with their phones. He had six different rooms that you had to travel in to see the different glasses. And it started to get momentum. So at one point he was doing a different installation like every seven days. And then finally, the brand has now become synonymous with these like crazy art exhibits. Futuristic, futuristic, Weird, but like so well done. So it's like the glasses are secondary to the art. And when I was in Japan, in Tokyo, they had a huge like Japanese man and behind him on the small table were like the glasses that went with the collection. Like, they're not focused on selling the glasses, they're focused on creating an experience. And in turn, they get millions of dollars in earned media value. Because everyone that goes there, even if you don't buy something, takes a photo. And the new version that we went to, because we've been tracking this brand for years, has now a fully built in cafe. They have full on housewares, they've got into hats, they've got into perfumes, they've gotten into teaspoon that you can take home. And every single thing that they've executed is so unique, so different and so well done.

A (52:20)

So think of your business or your store. The reason why Gentle Monster kind of works is when you go in, they've created such a quality of experience that you just have to think that their product is amazing.

B (52:30)

Yeah, right.

A (52:31)

You can't go into Gentle Monster and not think that their glasses are not fabulous because of how much they invest in it.

B (52:38)

You actually think that they're way better. Yeah, because of like, honestly, there's like three styles that work for me and we're, we've become Friends with the head of marketing at Gentle Monster, and she's even confirmed she's like 80% of their sales are on the plain black glasses. So the reason why they create all these crazy designs is because it brings people in and they take photos with them. But honestly, the majority of the glasses I would never check out if not for the experience of the store. And it's become one of the most well known and captivating brands in the world. Because of their investment in brand, they employ talent. Oh, yeah.

A (53:14)

You know, like, this isn't like weird art. You know, art for art's sake. Like, this is actually like beautiful art. And you can see it in the design of this new housewares line, too.

B (53:22)

Yeah, New flat.

A (53:23)

Right. That house. Like, it's perfect.

B (53:25)

The red nails, like, they had red nails on all of these different things. And it's. It's kind of like dark, sexual, like a little dominatrixy. But because it's also just so well done, I wanted it. Yeah, it's fresh, even though it's not my aesthetic or style at all. But I've never seen anybody do anything like it that you. You want to take it home as a souvenir.

A (53:47)

Well, it just makes pouring tea interesting.

B (53:49)

And the other thing too, when you talk about the talent, did you notice all the people that worked in the store? Like, how unique and artistic and their job is pretty mundane. Like, they just clean glasses all day when they're walking around with ride.

A (54:02)

They took pride in the. In the glass cleaning cloth they held. Like, I'm sure they were told they had to hold it like this. Like, they made everything a ceremony. It had kind of an Aesop feel, the way they worked.

B (54:12)

Totally, totally, totally. Well, Gentle monster is I. You know what I love too, because when you were sitting down, you were like, man, like, they. What they focus on is on detail. Like, when we looked at every art installation, like, how much money they spent and how the machine moves and like, how many pieces they have. Like, it just. There's so many ways that you can cut corners that it could have still been good, but it's so exceptionally great because they're not fixated on that. And it was so cool to. To keep falling in love with a brand. Like, the longer you go into it, like, think about how often you. It's kind of disappointing or you have to make excuses for something because it's growing too quickly and how the brand is still saying so true to an aesthetic that you can't quite pinpoint.

A (54:59)

What I admire about them and when I try to help other businesses is how on side their staff is.

B (55:05)

Right.

A (55:06)

Like when you have a brand that executes, you can't have staff that are half assed.

B (55:10)

No.

A (55:11)

Right. Like you have to have people who are really proud to work there who really buy into what you're doing. And a lesson for the businesses out there is, you know, it's not a waste of time to focus on giving that extra 10%, making everything feel special, getting your people on board with it. Like, it, it's, it's a brand opportunity a lot of American businesses are missing.

B (55:31)

Totally. Totally. Well, we, we are also going to be recording on Sunday, so we'll touch on Matt o' Lane on Sunday. So I think there's a lot that brand owners can learn from that. But I'm so excited to be back.

A (55:43)

And we're going to Colombia next week.

B (55:44)

We're going to Colombia next week too. Guys. Buckle up.

A (55:46)

Doing a good podcast.

B (55:47)

Can you imagine going from Japan to Colombia? Like what that's gonna be a whole other episode in and of itself is like Latin culture versus like high context. Like it's gonna be, gonna be super interesting. But we're really excited. And if you haven't checked out Bella Beauty, check them out. They're making big waves in the beauty industry.

A (56:03)

B E L A H We hope.

B (56:05)

You have a great week. We've missed you guys and we will speak soon.

A (56:09)

Happy to be back.

B (56:10)

Xoxo Follow Konigiwa.