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- [00:00]
Camille
If I was to tell brands one thing to plan for and plan for heavily is to activate in real life. Talking about like doing these super bowl activations, the reason why people can't measure them is because they're not, they're not thinking in terms of world building. Like how do you tie the digital element, do the pre teasing to get to the event to have a KPI. Do you know what? I'm kind of building on it. Like really doing the world building is what's missing with this activation based marketing.
- [00:29]
Philip
There's no KPI to creating a buzz about experience. It's just something that will pay off if you double down on it.
- [00:35]
Camille
You go to Instagram to see everything. Like you go to judge, like a restaurant you're going to eat at, you're looking at like whether or not you're going to go to that med spa.
- [00:44]
Philip
It just. Nobody checks their messages on TikTok. But Instagram has like the healthiest and most user friendly DM mechanism to communicate with people. So you're experiencing this digital world, but you can actually have a lot more.
- [00:56]
Camille
Intimate connection in airport experiences. Like how much money I would spend if they had a blowout, like a blowout area and like an IV area and a quick 30 minute facial area. Can we just have a moment for the uniforms? What was Canada doing?
- [01:15]
Philip
Oh my gosh.
- [01:16]
Camille
Oh my God.
- [01:16]
Philip
Like, and it's Lululemon. Like Lululemon. If you, if you just wanted to show everybody that you were dead as a brand, we wanted to show everybody that your creative is gone, that you're doing nonsense. You've lost a plot. You just did it by, hum, humiliating Canada's best athletes, making them dance around.
- [01:32]
Camille
I think Abercrombie is a really interesting case study because it was a brand that was so iconic and died. I think because it became a bit tone deaf.
- [01:44]
Philip
Like if you're going to do ad campaigns, you got to spark it up and you have to do things that get noticed. And war sells cola. War sells more cola. Attacking your opponent because they suck will sell like you don't. You can't be vanilla anymore in this world of digital attention.
- [02:01]
Camille
What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand. Say it again now. What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand. All right, so welcome back to another episode of Art of the Brand. We're recording from San Francisco Super Bowl. I was gonna say 47, is that correct or is it 48? Do we know?
- [02:22]
Philip
But we're in the San. The SF podcast studio. Great studio. Thank you for hosting us.
- [02:27]
Camille
Yeah. So it's awesome. So we've got to. Let's kick it off. Let's do a recap of what we saw. We just came from Gary V's event. VaynerMedia put on an awesome brunch that was super fun. We met so many cool, great people. So welcoming.
- [02:39]
Philip
They should have super bowl award, like, commercial awards things. I think vaynermedia would win all of the awards this year with the creative that they've used.
- [02:47]
Camille
Well, it's actually was probably one of the most interesting takeaways. Is that so Gary Vee owns a huge agency called VaynerMedia and they had a bunch of the brands in their brunch. But it was a very, like, classy, tasteful brunch. But it was funny because a lot of our favorite super bowl commercials were those brands. So it's obvious behind the commercials that are of the better ones, if not the best ones are all produced by the Vayner team.
- [03:15]
Philip
Oh, he's killing it with his creative. His team is killing it. And if people aren't getting on the creative bandwagon, they're gonna be left behind.
- [03:22]
Camille
The thing I thought was really interesting is that, like, the kind of the lack of branding in the city and I think the big thing that I keep coming back to in so many content and even in, like, funny to say, like, experiencing it today, how powerful experience is in branding and how if I was to tell brands one thing to plan for and plan for heavily is to activate in real life.
- [03:49]
Philip
You know what I thought about when you said it is how important experience is. But I think once you've realized how good experience can be, like in certain spaces, you become aware when there's no experience in spaces. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's the absence of experience in a common space now is palatable.
- [04:07]
Camille
Well, what I think is interesting is people talk about the super bowl of things. Like, you know, how, like, the super bowl is the analogy used for everything and how people often use that as also kind of this epicenter of like, advertising and, and. And consumption and like eyeballs. And it's interesting that when being here, I've never been to a Super bowl before, how you would think that for a lot of these huge brands like the Unilever, the Bayer, like those big, big brands, why they wouldn't spend more because there's such a cultural relevance to like, this Americana of traveling to the super bowl, like, it's such a silly thing for them. To not plan for when with these brands that have bigger budgets.
- [04:52]
Philip
Well, I guess I don't know what the budgets are like. There's not space for everybody. So there are major.
- [04:57]
Camille
No, no, I know we went by in the park and there was that Old Spice. Like those things are easy. It takes planning, it takes intention, it takes, it takes re looking at how you want to spend money. Like digital has almost become too easy. Right. People think that digital is so measurable, so, so disproportionate budgets are put into what's measured because. Well, that's what we heard today from one of the conversations you were having that the life cycle of the CMO is on average two years and it's KPI driven, it's not brand driven. So when they're, when their job success and their bonus is tied to key performance indicators, you don't focus on that intangibility of the brand building.
- [05:40]
Philip
What I thought was interesting is if the average corporate CMO is changing every two years, it's like what I've said in government, like you need to have a 20 year plan for your country, but if the election cycle is four years, you only work on short term things. And so how do you actually build a brand if the person is kind of in charge of the brand is changing every two years? Yeah, but you need kind of a 10 year focus on doing something for the brand and if the CEO isn't behind it, that's why these brands start wandering around because their CMOs are changing all the time.
- [06:09]
Camille
What you're saying is right. But I also think it's a bit of the, it's a bit of the problem with our attention spans and people who, who work in brands. Right. Like it's. I don't want to totally blame either side, but when I, when you also think about it, when you're kind of restricted for what you can do and the greatest impact you can make is somewhat in the beginning because you're the most exciting. Right. Like it becomes frustrating to start getting things done. So it allows you to get into a new position and start trying. Like I just think that there's more to it. You disagree?
- [06:39]
Philip
I don't want any more to.
- [06:41]
Camille
There's more to this that people are changing, they're changing hands. Right. Like they want to get more on their resume, they want to get more range, they want to get more experience.
- [06:48]
Philip
No, that's not the trend is that they're just getting moved out because you have quarterly measurements.
- [06:52]
Camille
Yeah, they keep.
- [06:53]
Philip
That's where you bring in you bring in somebody in charge of marketing and they have to try to bring short term results that end up petering out and that's why they're flipping them to.
- [07:01]
Camille
Try and try and make well on that side too. I mean, yeah, of course if, if on the side of the brands letting them go. But I, I also think there's a lot of like horse, horse trading of, of people who are looking for different talent. But I don't want to move past that point because this week I was in our show Notes. But this week Ro did an influencer getaway in Montana. And what I thought was really impressive about it is that they did a kind of a teaser for it. Like they ramped it up. Like they had people knowing that it was going to be happening and the people who they selected to go were kind of again like that ultimate cool girl they had. Everything was so curated, was so high fidelity. They were truly doing like a Vogue shoot on the top of this mountain. Like how much they put in focusing on content but talking about like doing these super bowl activations. The reason why people can't measure them is because they're not, they're not thinking in terms of world building. Like how do you tie the digital element, do the pre teasing to get to the event to have a KPI, do you know what I'm saying? Kind of building on it. Like really doing the world building is what's missing with this activation based marketing.
- [08:12]
Philip
There just can't be a KPI for it because you can't, you can never really quantify it. Like if you do an experience based activation at an event and only a hundred people see it, but those hundred people are connected cumulatively to a million. You know what I mean? Like you just don't know what comes from it when it comes from the world building. So there's no KPI to creating a buzz about experience. It's just something that will pay off if you double down on it.
- [08:36]
Camille
I've been thinking a lot about it this weekend because I've been for experience. I have seen, I've been analyzing it deeper because there's been such an absence of experience in the past few years. And when I was in the CAA gifting suite yesterday, they had a bunch of brands like Mackenzie Child was one of them. It's that, you know that checkered house kind of brand and they had all the teapots and they had like, they had really like clunky house stuff among a ton of other things, Lola blankets. And I was thinking about it because the whole idea of the gifting suite is you fill up this iPad and then, like, the products are sent to the WAG's homes. And I was like, what makes Mackenzie Child so desirable is that it's constantly in the background of a certain kind of girl's house and how intelligent it was for them to activate in that space. Because all of those wags are exactly that type of girl.
- [09:30]
Philip
You have to say, you're at the CAA event with the wives of the athletes.
- [09:33]
Camille
Yeah. Wives and girlfriends of the Seahawks and the Patriots.
- [09:37]
Philip
Yeah. And it was a great branding collab experience.
- [09:41]
Camille
Right. And what's interesting is, like, when you're talking about the KPI of measurement, like, this is where branding gets really strategic and guerrilla, is that, yes, you might have gotten content and being in that experience and building that kind of mackenzie Childs world in that room, in that space. And sure, there's like, girls that might post it and post about it, but you're also signaling that idea of, like, that passport. Right. Like, you are the kinds of women that are MacKenzie child women. And we will, when we send it to you, the fact that it sits kind of ambiently in the background is almost the point. Right. And that's what's so interesting about that KPI driver, is that how do you quantify that? How do you quantify that?
- [10:18]
Philip
But it's everything to the brand. Yeah. And that's why brand is longer term. Like, it's. It's not. You can't measure it quarterly or even in two years.
- [10:27]
Camille
Well, it also speaks to this, like, more larger idea that I'm building on in that Instagram is really the center point of the world right now. And it's. People aren't really talking about it because there's such a desire to go where there's underpriced attention. Like, go, you know, go to Snapchat because an eyeball is worth less, or head to TikTok because, you know, it's easier to scale and it's easier to grow. But there's also something to focusing on the platform that actually has the. The greatest upside for distribution and reach and impact, even though it's not as monetizable.
- [11:00]
Philip
You know, what do you think? Because Instagram, to me, started as kind of an image, Right. You put your pictures on there. What do you think is so special about Instagram that allowed it to capture this space, kind of almost pushing TikTok and YouTube away at the moment?
- [11:16]
Camille
Well, what's interesting about what Instagram has become is it's Like a better version of Facebook. So Facebook, when you add someone, it's a friend, right? It feels hyper personal. When you add someone on Instagram, you're following them, right? Like, so Instagram is this cool blend of it's where your friends are, it's where people you know are, but it's also where creators are, it's where brands are. Like, it's this real kind of true, like that center square idea, you know of. Like when you go back to like the Rome and like you'd have vendors and you'd see people you knew. Like, it's one side of getting all of it and you get it in a format that is. There's so many different mediums. Like if you want the quick dopamine hit of the story or if you want the in feed of something that's hyper visual. And that's the one thing that TikTok got wrong is that because it doesn't have that explore page and that visual aspect of mixing mediums in the same way, it's less. You go, you, you go to TikTok to like brain rot. And it's not to see people you know, you go to Instagram to see everything. Like you go to judge, like a restaurant you're gonna eat at, you're looking at like whether or not you're gonna go to that med spa.
- [12:33]
Philip
But you know what? I think Instagram's leverage point to gaining superiority is when you think of it, YouTube doesn't have direct messaging.
- [12:40]
Camille
No.
- [12:41]
Philip
You're watching their stuff and DMs.
- [12:43]
Camille
Yeah.
- [12:43]
Philip
And TikTok, it just. Nobody checks their messages on TikTok. But Instagram has like the healthiest and most user friendly DM mechanism to communicate with people. So you're experiencing this digital world, but you can actually have a lot more intimate connection.
- [12:57]
Camille
Okay, so one, if you're wanting to focus on Instagram, that DM feature is the difference. So you want to create content that's highly shareable. And that's what most businesses miss, is that their content is an ad and an ad isn't interesting to anyone else. There's zero shareability to your post or a piece of content you're losing. But what's interesting to what you're saying is Instagram is this one like this one echo sphere of I go, I can learn, I can send it to you, I can swipe. I'm seeing my friend, you know, announcing that she's pregnant. I swipe. It's an interesting video that I can build upon for like a piece of Content or a substack. I swipe it's skims new video on their Nike skims club. Like it's one. And that's your point? To your point on YouTube. YouTube is so intimate. Like YouTube is where you go to like deep dive to learn. Like you have your people on YouTube.
- [13:53]
Philip
But you can just post a comment on the video. Right. But there's no engagement. Like YouTube lives when people are posting in there. But I've always thought that was the most useless thing in the world because the conversations are going so fast you can't read anything. You know, like on those YouTube lives. But on Instagram you own it because if you share it, you're sending something to somebody as a gift or as something. Right. And you don't. Like there's something more intimate about Instagram.
- [14:17]
Camille
You know how there's like car brands for certain people, you know, like you can say so much about someone by the brand of car that they drive. I think social media platforms are the same. Like it says so much about someone if they're a YouTube first person. Like they like, they like to like learn longer, they like to invest longer, they're more, they're more curated, they're more specific, they're more picky about who or what they listen to. Whereas Instagram to me is like the more for everyone kind of place because it's, it allows you to like the algorithm and the Explore page is designed for people who are busy, people who want range, people who want it like cuz Facebook is limiting with it being more about like a timeline. Whereas Instagram is more like it's serving stuff to you.
- [15:06]
Philip
Yeah, it's almost like in 30 seconds to two minutes if you pop on Instagram you can feel like you're being brought into the community you've built in terms of your interests.
- [15:15]
Camille
Yeah.
- [15:15]
Philip
You know what I mean? It kind of brings you to your place of interest and you can do it on a short level or a long level. Interesting. I wanted to. We were talking about experience though, because when we got off the airport we thought how come there's not many cool activations here celebrating the super bowl as you walk through the airport?
- [15:32]
Camille
I actually, it is hilarious that you said that because the days leading up to it I was having this internal dialogue and about like, why is nobody investing in airport experiences? Like how much money I would spend if they had a blowout? Like a blowout area and like an IV area and a quick 30 minute facial area. Like what? Like why is the airport not changed from a delivery of services and experiences. Like they, they introduced nap pods 10 years ago and like that was groundbreaking. But like a half an hour blowout or even like a touch up of mirror like how much money I would spend if they could just get into 2025.
- [16:17]
Philip
I was trying to figure it out because. And the one thing I, I realized is you know how like duty freeze have become absolute dumpster fires of boringness.
- [16:26]
Camille
Yeah.
- [16:27]
Philip
And so I think the people who manage the airports are kind of run by some, a few big corporations. And so now every duty free, even when you go to a big airport, it's all the same stuff. It's a conglomerate, there's no variance at all. But I just don't think they have the people creative enough to know that they can rent the floor space or the landlords in the airport have non competes that don't allow them to do things like that. You know how like duty free controls which brands can be shown there. That might be something that's restricting that space.
- [16:57]
Camille
So we ended up getting into a huge fight. I mean it really was not that big. It was, I was being dramatic there. We got into a funny disagreement that resulted in him buying smoothies. And it was because we were rushing in Korea and I didn't get the chance to go to volume. And I was disappointed because I love to do my yearly like haul where I stock up on all the new products that have, you know, blossomed in the last six months that I've been there. And Philip was like, they're for. They for sure will happen at the airport. And like no they don't. He's like, they for sure will happen at the airport. Well, guess what? They didn't have one at the airport. But like why wouldn't they have one at the airport? I feel like there's. We understand the exit through the gift shop and we understand how to spend money in any way anywhere but the airport.
- [17:41]
Philip
Yeah. Because the airport's not a cool spot to buy, but like to buy stuff.
- [17:45]
Camille
Like think about how like you don't have to be someone that travels all the time. Most people when they travel, they feel special. So like the, the threshold to invest further in that specialness is already primed. Like it's so easy because you can't bring your own food. Really can't bring your own drinks. Really, you are traveling somewh so you probably want to have stuff done. So if anyone runs the and you've just been sitting on decisions and you haven't figured this out, which I'm sure there's regulatory stuff. So let's also talk about the Olympic opening point.
- [18:19]
Philip
That's what I'm saying. So there's always an element of politics coming into to sports and Olympics. But I thought like yesterday, the opening ceremony of the Winter Olympics, although aesthetically beautifully designed by the Italians, like the French at the last one had like that this Dionysian woke festival opening ceremony. The Italian one at least had like uniforms and straight line. I thought it was nice. But the virtues, like the virtue signal of the politicians is a bit gross.
- [18:51]
Camille
They took so much time saying like let's unite the world. This is like we're all coming together, let's make this. I'm like, it's literally a competition. Like it's countries pitting themselves against each other. This is the most like, like absolute sight of competition. Like why are we spending so much time talking about when it's not relevant?
- [19:09]
Philip
The cool thing about sport though is that two people can compete against each other and, and still get along, you know, like in a way. So. But I think they were, I think they're moving away from the sport and they were bleeding into the politics with like, you know, you know, not even veiled statements that were meant to say something against one country. Do you know what I mean? Like it was, it wasn't really just saying everybody here is. Woke up at 5:00 in the morning, sacrificed everything for a type of excellence so you could come here and be tested based only on your merit. And the person who wins the gold medal will be the best human being who worked the hardest. Like there's a bit of leaning into the ash.
- [19:48]
Camille
Yeah, the ash was gone. But I, but also too, I mean you brought up such a great point because you've, you've been to so much, so many things with your military background with like the decorum ceremony, there's an art and a strategy to executing ceremony and it was so drawn out. Like there becomes the like the art of the presentation is also knowing when to end. And that's like what I like when we talk about this kind of, this idea of like the art of the brand. Like your opening ceremony is such a big part of the Olympic brand. And like when these countries take it on and going too long and not knowing that point to like to finish.
- [20:23]
Philip
Artistically there was some beautiful execution, but the pacing and I think that's what we're talking about. Like when you're doing an activation, like pacing is important and if you try to include everybody so it takes so long, like you just it's impossible to keep the pacing.
- [20:37]
Camille
Yeah.
- [20:37]
Philip
You know, for the ceremony. So I gotta draw it out and.
- [20:40]
Camille
Oh, my gosh. In the outfits. Can we just have a moment for the uniforms? What was Canada doing?
- [20:46]
Philip
Oh, my gosh.
- [20:47]
Camille
Oh, my God. Like, I'm just. I'm at a point now where I'm like, oh, like, okay, one could have been done. So cool. Why was there a huge hole in the back? Why did it, like. It looked like.
- [21:01]
Philip
It looked like children dressed up as Spider Man.
- [21:03]
Camille
It was so bad.
- [21:05]
Philip
And it's Lululemon. Like, Lululemon. If you just wanted to show everybody that you were dead as a brand. If you wanted to show everybody that your creative is gone, that you're doing nonsense, you've lost a plot. You just did it. By humiliating Canada's best athletes, making them dance around in the.
- [21:21]
Camille
Compared to the American uniform, like, so well tailored, so classic.
- [21:26]
Philip
Ralph Lauren.
- [21:27]
Camille
Elegant, so American.
- [21:29]
Philip
Ralph Lauren. Nailed it. Lululemon just is, like, stuck down that hole of.
- [21:35]
Camille
I don't want to give them more air and media value. They get nowhere in media value. But you know who knocked it out of the park? Mongolia.
- [21:43]
Philip
Oh, Mongolia.
- [21:44]
Camille
Mongolia. They had the Goyle. They did a collab with Goyal cashmere.
- [21:48]
Philip
Yeah.
- [21:48]
Camille
Oh, French guys.
- [21:49]
Philip
That's the type of stuff right there.
- [21:51]
Camille
You know what I also loved too, actually? Brazil. So Montclair did Brazil, which was. It was such an abomination. Like, Giorgio Armani did Italy dirty. It was so bad. It was like, when you think of the Italian, like. Like Kappa outlet mall, like, it was. It was not Italy at its best.
- [22:15]
Philip
You are click gold right now in this segment. Let me just keep going. I'll just sit here.
- [22:20]
Camille
Honestly, what I. And then Brazil about Brazil. Brazil was. It was like. It was. So Montclair did this famous, like, these museum pieces where it was like, if Puff was fashion and they rocked it for Brazil, which. Brazil is a fashionable and cool country. So but the fact that Montclair is from Italy and, like, the Italians, that it's in Milan, like, the fashion capital of the world. World. And they were done literally. Outlet mall dirty is so. And Giorgio Armani passed this year, like, this is the year when they knew the designs were coming. And it's his legacy. And it's in Italy. Someone goes, we don't care about the budget. Like, we got it, like, because, like, Giorgio Armani's name is now in that, like, artist phase. Right. Where, like, it's super iconic. So to have it in Italy with his name. The year he passed that it should have been, like, puffy tailored suits. Because he was famous for the American tailored suit. The, like, flexible. The flexible suit. They could have rocked that lastly, though.
- [23:23]
Philip
Yeah. Okay, Sorry, go ahead.
- [23:24]
Camille
The. The true winner that comes out on top here, Haiti, with its athlete of one. I think they nailed it. It's like that same kind of, like, Montclair. But why I loved it is that. Cause I want to talk about the importance of kind of like these. These social dressing moments, because it goes back to Instagram being the center of the world. You're seeing it for music shows like the Grammys. Like, did you see Chapel Roan's outfit?
- [23:55]
Philip
Oh, yeah, yeah. But we're not mooned outfits yet, are we? On our podcast?
- [23:59]
Camille
Thomas, I was just gonna talk.
- [24:00]
Philip
Why can't we just stay with the. I think the winner of the opening ceremony was that model Victoria Batori or something in the sleek white. Like, it was just. And she carried the American flag with such elegance.
- [24:15]
Camille
Yes, of course.
- [24:16]
Philip
Like, I thought, for an iconic moment of saying that is elegant Italy, like, just nailed that.
- [24:20]
Camille
For the American flag or the Italian flag.
- [24:22]
Philip
The Italian flag.
- [24:24]
Camille
No, that she was the star of the show.
- [24:26]
Philip
Yeah. And the other star. And I want to talk about it because it goes back to experience. So Andrea Bocelli. Silence. Yes. And if any. Even if you didn't watch the opening ceremonies, I highly recommend that you go and you just turn a good speaker up and listen to him sing in that stadium with the people there. That song is one of the more moving songs of all time. But it hit us again today because when we were at Gary Vee's event for Vayner, they had LA Russell, Louisiana. Russell, who you guys have to listen to. But he was amazing, and he had a choir there, and he had been working with Gary Vee for, like, eight years to build a following without going through a record label. So just organic sales. But the guy's lyrics were amazing. But it just. We were talking about how being in person is so much more memorable. Like, getting that music experience with the choir.
- [25:15]
Camille
It's actually crazy to say how underrated human interaction is. Like music in real life. Like, talking to someone, having to focus on a conversation for four minutes without having four other tabs open and, like, typing an email in the background. Like, just the. When I was there today, I was there today. And a part of my brain, like, I had to keep telling myself is, like, I'm here right now. Like, be here, be present. And the music hit different. The conversations hit different. The. It just. It's so sad that we moved somewhere where. Like, this, to me, is a groundbreaking insight of, like, where you need to invest your time. So seriously, is in branding, like, in person branding in person experience rather. And sorry, where you need to invest is in person activations and getting back out there to connect with people. Because all of this digital stuff works so much better when people can meet you and they can, like, tell you how much they love your content, what they connect with, and then connect you to other people because they already feel like they know you, but until they see you in real life, you're just. You might as well be a digital.
- [26:29]
Philip
AI, somebody who could be traded like a. Like a player's card. But what I thought was interesting for our listeners, practically. So Gary Vee paid big bucks to bring this guy, and he was spectacular artist. And the people in that room were incredibly connected human beings. For like 250 people there, they probably had a reach of like 20 to 30 million more than that. And then there's one.
- [26:51]
Camille
Becky G was there. She's got 40 million followers. So he's crazy. A billion.
- [26:56]
Philip
And so this. This artist, he's amazing. LA Russell, LA. Russell, LA. Russell. He's such a good human. Like, his music with the choir was amazing. Rap is what is spectacular. But in the end, he gives this. And Gary is like, I work with him. We need to get more followers. And then LA Russell is like, yeah, buy my album today. If you're here, if you liked it, just buy my album today. And you guys gotta listen to this. Everybody had their phone up filming this concert where Gary Vee is bouncing with him. He's bouncing with him. And then he goes, buy my album. And then Camille goes over, looks at me and goes, where's the QR code?
- [27:30]
Camille
No, I went on, where's your phone? Like, he. It was his website is Evens Biz. How hard is that to hear? On this podcast with Clear Audio, imagine being in a room with a mic and he's just done singing, and he's telling you, go to evensdobiz.
- [27:47]
Philip
Because we all wanted to buy. But I'm just saying, like, there's times where you can be an expert at your craft. You still need somebody to look at your process. Because in two seconds, we're like, if there was a QR code just on the speaker beside, and everybody would have taken their phones and go, boom, click, buy. And now you have a hundred people with 100 million.
- [28:06]
Camille
Where, like, people really like. The event I went to yesterday, which I won't name, was really not organized as well. And like that's a piece that people miss is like it's not doing the event, it's not doing the thing. It's having the strategy and the digital layer around what like you need to think in person to digital. Like what is. If the new funnel is. You're meeting, you're touching, you're making them feel like we. Even the, the event, we went afterwards to gallery, it was put on by Lumify, which is like eyedrops. And they had me entirely captivated by their brand for an hour. They had no digital conversion to the in person experience. Like they. And that's the issue is so many of you are thinking digitally and there's space for you to expand, but you need to think in real life, in person. And then how do you amplify that into a digital space?
- [28:57]
Philip
You need both that, what you said there, I think it was very important and we got to like the in person to digital and how to capture it. Like that's, that's a very complex topic that you're explaining there. But I thought you did a great job.
- [29:08]
Camille
I also, I really want to go back though, because it's been something that I've been stewing on and I wanted to talk about it is how what we were saying like at the Grammys, the outfits were so crazy and they were so extreme and because everything has moved to how do I show up on more feeds on Instagram and that's the word that nobody is saying on Instagram. Yeah, because like when Chapel Roan shows up and or Heidi Klum shows up that it's so ridiculous that it's only designed to show up on Instagram feeds.
- [29:48]
Philip
Because Heidi Klum would not have been mentioned at all in the last month, that outfit.
- [29:54]
Camille
And you're seeing it with like how Marty supreme did the orange. You're seeing like everything with the, the skims, Nike skims, with the Kendall curse, like with the 50 cent commercial for DoorDash. The way to win is to show up on more feeds and to get more sends. So the Chapel Roan dress is designed to go into more DMs. That's what you need to be thinking of as a brand owner.
- [30:21]
Philip
But it's not the same to say that Heidi Klum wearing some plastic freakish dress is good for her brand. Like there's an act of desperation that comes that can hurt a brand. And so if you do something, because that's the only way you can end up in DMs, it can work at one level if it like baseline sex or violence or those types of things. But you're right that the kind of professional who goes to the show but who looks like a million dollars like that model at the opening games it doesn't get. But she also can get shots of shit. It's just not as good. But you have to ask yourself how much are you willing to compromise to become an attention whore.
- [30:56]
Camille
I actually disagree with you.
- [30:58]
Philip
Everybody's just going to keep doing it and you're going to. It's just going to look like this clown festival of celebrities.
- [31:02]
Camille
That's a real point.
- [31:03]
Philip
She talking about to get a creation more.
- [31:05]
Camille
How do I get on more Instagram?
- [31:07]
Philip
Yes but for one day doesn't build a member. A brand is also you know a 12 month or a 5 year plan. Right. So what you're having is this kind of short term peacocking to be look at me so I can say I had some looks but nobody's going to care about how you clue them two months from now.
- [31:22]
Camille
What I think you're right on is where does this go? Which is my underlying question for this like overall theme. Because I've also been thinking about it with Wuthering Heights and like Margot Robbie where she's so into an aesthetic right now that I think this is like will be archived and cited later. Like this moment of how she's being dressed and how it's showing up on Instagram is. It's the perfect movie marketing for me as a consumer which is ultimately with it being like a Jane Austen novel. Like I. I probably am the consumer. So her and Jake Velouri having amazing fashion is so smart for that end consumer. But because it's showing up on more Instagram and I'll go back to the Heidi point. We are in a relevance economy.
- [32:09]
Philip
But isn't that showing up in like a suggested or more you don't even know.
- [32:14]
Camille
So Instagram when I like open it accounts that I'm not following if they just think that that post is in is relevant to my interest they will show me. So like random chicks that I've never heard of will show up on my feed announcing they're pregnant and I will like for a moment get excited being like no way this I'm like who is this? Oh wait, it says follow. I don't know who this is. And it's like in my feed. So Instagram knows that there's a.
- [32:39]
Philip
Well yeah there are people trying to.
- [32:41]
Camille
Because people are probably.
- [32:42]
Philip
No, but people are probably staying on trying to see if they Know the person and so their time on that.
- [32:46]
Camille
No, it's not that. It's that when I check when I. For that example for that girl, when I click on her, it's like 65 of, like, people I actually interact with the most follow that woman. So there's a high likelihood that I would know her.
- [32:59]
Philip
I know, but. But I also saw some posts that are, like, pretending to be something, you know, and it. It gets the account time on views because people are, like, looking at the. The bot, you know, and doing a whole bunch of stuff. Like, I've seen those kind of interesting.
- [33:12]
Camille
But what I was going to say, though, as the second point is when you. I was like, I don't disagree. I don't agree in the Heidi Klune point. If Heidi Klum didn't have her crazy Halloween party where she makes herself legitimately ugly every single year, which makes no sense for, like, one of the hottest models of all time, I don't know that I would know who she is. Yeah, Like, I don't know if I. If she would. And truthfully, for me, it's relevant because if I work with brands that are looking for a hot, aspirational woman in her 50s, she's probably one of the first that I think of for big brand deals. But two, if I was a consumer and I wasn't in the industry, and I, I, as the. The puppet master, had picked Heidi Klum, that would have high penetration, high reach, because of, like, shared mass awareness and knowledge.
- [34:02]
Philip
So I think, like, in terms of making her Persona a business, where she's at. Like, she's not going to be in the news for acting or singing. Right? So she has to be in the news for something because she's a little older. Like, she has to kind of, you know, so for a business perspective, it makes sense.
- [34:18]
Camille
Just the question is, where does it go? But I think the underlying signal that you can take away is Instagram is the center of the world. Like, that is where. And if you. And I think a lot of business owners get frustrated because they're expecting growth, they're expecting followership. Imagine your Instagram is a. Is a second version of this world. Like, how hard is this to break through and to, like, be noticed and recognized?
- [34:41]
Philip
I was just laughing because LinkedIn literally.
- [34:44]
Camille
Laughing at himself in the corner.
- [34:46]
Philip
Oh. I was like, LinkedIn, we have it on camera. LinkedIn popped into my head. And I could just imagine the humans who say, my preferred channel is LinkedIn. You like the boringness of the people just saying, congratulations on Humble brags like it's just such an uninteresting feed generally, even though it's trying, like, like it's slow. Like if you're on it.
- [35:06]
Camille
The only thing I like about LinkedIn is that I get really feedback. Thoughtful people breaking down what they like about campaigns and advertising or like taking an insight that we've shared and applying it to something that it's probably the most thoughtful of the platform. This is why I'm not a hater on the people. This is why.
- [35:26]
Philip
Actually, forgive me, but I think, I think LinkedIn is really kind of for the dorks, like without being. Because I just know what people used to teach.
- [35:34]
Camille
You're so right. It was totally for the dork, but in the best way.
- [35:37]
Philip
What they used to teach people on LinkedIn is find other people writing things and then write really thoughtful comments. Right. And so I feel like all of these thoughtful comments are for people who are just trying to get platforms. So it's not, it's not as much good dialogue as like performative dialogue. But everybody on there has a business they're trying to promote.
- [35:55]
Camille
But I would, I don't want to undermine that. They're going on there and they're trying to like, thought leadership is hard. It's the safest way to lean into thought leadership in an arena that feels, feels that you're not being too controversial and your opinion matters. And for a lot of people that's a great place.
- [36:14]
Philip
No, I'm. Maybe I'm being mean spirited, but just some of the content, some of the comments you can just see are like, okay, you're trying too hard to say something on this post as opposed to really having something to say. But, but keep doing your thing. Whatever, whatever platform you're on.
- [36:28]
Camille
Okay. All right, let's move on to. I want to talk about the Abercrombie strategy. In this, the spirit of the super bowl, it's. I did a swipe through in an article on it this week and I really want to give Abercrombie credit because.
- [36:41]
Philip
We'Re in our 90 minute segment portion of the show, so every topic's gotta be 90 seconds now.
- [36:46]
Camille
So yeah, what I love about. So I think Abercrombie is a really interesting case study because it was a brand that was so iconic and died, I think because it became a bit tone deaf to the changes. Like people were less interested in kind of that like douchier, kind of like male, like super chiseled like idea of men. Like it just the culturally it moved away from that because I worked at Abercrombie.
- [37:17]
Philip
Okay.
- [37:17]
Camille
It was actually my second job and ice cream once. Well, I feel like it's hilarious to. I was. Well, it shows you the power of Abercrombie. I thought I was literally like I was special when I walked. We used to walk through this when they would ask you if you would not go.
- [37:34]
Philip
You were special, Camille. More honestly. So let's get on with the brand.
- [37:37]
Camille
Someone had to believe in me and. But like the brand back then was so powerful. Like it was so cool. If you worked at Abercrombie. I worked at Abercrombie Kids, which was the non. No, it wasn't the cool one. It was the one that like I could tell people I worked at Abercrombie and if they didn't ask other questions, it passed. But otherwise it was literally where bratty private school parent moms would go and they would just mess up the pile and I'd have to refold it. But the point is, is that what I thought was really interesting in the rebrand is that. So the rebrand was super successful. Like the way they. They basically kind of became like a bit like a sheen. Like it's like mass market cute clothing that is like cheap on quality moved away from an overall brand. But a lot of people still don't know because it was really Gen Z focused and then partnering with the. With the NFL. They first only started with five teams and then once they. But what was cool about it is that they made clothes with the like with the team opposed to Lululemon that just like slapped a logo on pre designed product. So Lululemon didn't create anything new. They basically were like a. Like a swag dealer. Like they gave the Scuba swag.
- [38:53]
Philip
I like the strategy on first take. Not having known as much by going to five teams, if your design and creative is well done, you are going to get relative deprivation or envy from the other teams. You know what I mean? Like so if you're. If your team swag is amazing. Like if I'm on a team that doesn't have Aber. Like I. Everybody wants better swag for their team. Do you know what I mean? So it's not. Yeah.
- [39:16]
Camille
But what was cool about it though is that it they also just made like really cool like almost like band tees. So people were wearing the 49er shirts. Like a Guns n Roses shirt. Like it wasn't. It wasn't also just like like fan merch.
- [39:28]
Philip
Cool clothes. Oh, you want to look cool and support your team. Like you don't want a Gildan T shirt.
- [39:33]
Camille
No. But what I thought was really cool about it is that they. So they've. For the super bowl this year they became the official fashion sponsor of the super bowl and they've rolled out their clothing with all 32 teams. And what's cool about it is that they did a fashion show during the super bowl weekend and they recreated the tunnel so it looked like tunnel looks. And they hired all the like the top football players from the teams that were in the super bowl and the models were all about the men and they put all of the wives and girlfriends in like one section and like celebrating them as like women of greatness. Like they're like, they're almost like the judges or almost like watch which is, which is.
- [40:14]
Philip
Or the people being entertained by the good looking.
- [40:18]
Camille
But what's so cool is that that's like old school Abercrombie. Like they're still really good looking, super fit people. But, and, but in a way that feels more modern and relevant and I respect that.
- [40:28]
Philip
They didn't make it A bunch of overweight people or down there.
- [40:31]
Camille
There we go. We got our sound by everybody.
- [40:33]
Philip
I'm just saying like that's if that's the brand.
- [40:35]
Camille
No, they didn't. They. They did it like it was all the super fit football athletes and it was. What I love is that for the, for the fashion show they actually went back into the archives of the teams so that it was like they actually made it like a fashion show. Like they'd put like work into the styles. They're not going to be sold in store some of them. And it's a, it's a really cool story of. I think that we can be critical of brands that move away from their original brand heritage. I think that that idea of Abercrombie will be iconic again.
- [41:05]
Philip
I wonder if, if Vayner's behind it because the, the guys were like Gary loves to take brands that have gone kind of into the penalty box or disappeared and revitalized them. And because he's so into football, I bet you he was behind this because they were saying that his, his favorite thing to do is to take brands that have fallen off and rec and bring them back.
- [41:24]
Camille
I don't know if they were so I wouldn't give them that plug because I don't know if it was them.
- [41:29]
Philip
We should find out because it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful move for Abercrombie and they can turn that into hundreds of millions of dollars.
- [41:36]
Camille
But I think it's I think what's really interesting though about it is that there's just so few brands that can do that, right? Like, that can move away from where they were originally and come out on top. So it's worth celebrating when they do it.
- [41:49]
Philip
When you say there are so few brands that can do that, you're actually anthropomorphizing a brand. Like, who can do it to a brand? Like, does the brand. Like, you know what I mean? There's so few brands who can do it. Like, somebody has to do it to the brand.
- [42:03]
Camille
Well, because people that they, they get afraid of what they were and they. Or people that will come in that put their own lenses or personal or political biases on a brand that it becomes a different monster that people can't relate with.
- [42:19]
Philip
But what I'm saying is let's say Gary was tasked to build Abercrombie back.
- [42:23]
Camille
Okay. But it wasn't him.
- [42:24]
Philip
So it may have been, but let's say he. It's not that the brand wasn't capable of doing it. It's that there wasn't a human in control capable of making the brand great again.
- [42:38]
Camille
I don't think that it's. I think it's not the person. I think it's the crowd. The issue is that when you have multiple decision makers, that's the issue. It's not one person. It's that it lacks one person driving division.
- [42:51]
Philip
That's the right person. Because if it's the wrong strategy.
- [42:53]
Camille
This actually was a female CEO that came in and she's completely turned it around since 2017 when they, the. They did 5.5 billion this past year and they were up from 3.3. Like they.
- [43:05]
Philip
Well, so I'm saying rushed it. It's a great, it's a great story. Great reemergence.
- [43:09]
Camille
Yeah. If you want to do one more on the warfare. It actually speaks to that larger theme that we're seeing this year, that we're seeing more of those hit pieces in ads where brands are re entering into this, like, honestly heated rivalry with, with their competing brands.
- [43:25]
Philip
Being Melbatoast only worked for Melbatoast. Like if you're going to do ad campaigns, you got to spark it up and you have to do things that get noticed. And war sells like, you know what I mean? Like it's cola. War sells more cola. Attacking your opponent because they suck will sell like you don't. You can't be vanilla anymore in this world of digital attention.
- [43:46]
Camille
Yeah. I think it was when we first saw it with the Pepsi and the Coke and then what was the other ad that we just thought was too oh, Claude and ChatGPT and. But what is interesting though is when you, it's so relevant because it's exactly how the human thinks. Like when you think about Apple versus Microsoft or Apple versus PC, those are the best commercials because it gave you two different archetypes and two different worlds to choose between. Right? And there was people that really resonated with that alternative, like PC world and there's people that really resonated with the Apple world. And when you, when you see those comparisons or when you create that rivalry, it allows for tribalness, which is what humans are built upon. And the reason I think it's relevant is I like so often small, medium sized businesses when you're leaning into thought leadership, you don't want to talk about the competition, you don't want to say.
- [44:39]
Philip
Things that discourage the profession. Say what's wrong with your industry, you don't want to like. But you, if you're fixing what's wrong.
- [44:45]
Camille
In the industry, you have to say something different. Like you have to create an alternative of why someone should choose you over the alternative. Because if you don't, what you're signaling to your customer is we're the same. And if they've got a better marketing, if they've got better word of mouth, if they've got a better location, they're going to win. And that's the problem is like to not be tacky. And that's where like the art of it comes in. But when you analyze what's impactful, like success leaves clues and like that's a, that's a, it's a clear way to also communicate. In order to explain how you're different, you have to set a standard in which is norm. And that's what people miss, is that it's not on them. It's not like saying that they're bad. It's articulating how you're different.
- [45:35]
Philip
Well said.
- [45:36]
Camille
Well, I've. It's weird not recording in our space, but I enjoyed today.
- [45:41]
Philip
San Francisco needs to come back. It's a great city.
- [45:46]
Camille
It was like last night when we were walking and we like. I honestly felt like I was like in like, I don't know, like 1984 or something.
- [45:56]
Philip
Oh, you mean with cement buildings?
- [45:57]
Camille
Like yeah, but like just also. It's so dystopian, like also kind of also mixed with like Aldous Huxley. Like it's this dark place. San Francisco. No one's really talking about it.
- [46:07]
Philip
Well, they are, but who are you picking for the Super Bowl?
- [46:11]
Camille
You know, I really enjoyed meeting the New England Patriots and their wives. I really respected and appreciated structure, tradition.
- [46:21]
Philip
Yeah, you saw the paradox sitting there. How cool. He said he was a really nice gentleman.
- [46:25]
Camille
The quarterback, Drake May, was a sweet boy. That is, like, all of them were just kind guys that were professional. They were refined. I really. I really liked them.
- [46:42]
Philip
You know, it's interesting, and we're not allowed to give any betting advice, but let's say they're three to one underdogs, meaning if you bet a hundred bucks, you'd win $300. You bet on the Patriots. Seattle is the favorite to win, but sometimes you get, like, a little inside knowledge. I think that can give you a betting advantage. And what I'm getting from you is you have a bunch of people who aren't taking themselves too seriously, who aren't partying and who are calm and they're young and they're underdogs. And in my experience, those are very dangerous opponents when you have a bunch of egos on the other side. But I know the journeyman quarterback on the Seattle team has something to prove, but might make me just go and put down a little bit of money on. I really like on the Patriots by.
- [47:23]
Camille
From your insight there, I enjoyed this weekend.
- [47:26]
Philip
If you lose your house because of this, don't. Don't blame us.
- [47:29]
Camille
Well, this doesn't come out until after the Supergirl, so you're just. You're giving a lot of disclaimers for. For advice.
- [47:38]
Philip
We're not live.
- [47:39]
Camille
It's not live.
- [47:40]
Philip
We're not live.
- [47:41]
Camille
We're not live yet.
- [47:41]
Philip
We'll be live soon.
- [47:42]
Camille
We're gonna work on that, though.
- [47:43]
Philip
But this will be a record that I called it.
- [47:46]
Camille
True. I mean, I don't bring him in enough disclaimers. He does not give legal advice on this show. However, he does sometimes play a lawyer in his day job.
- [47:54]
Philip
Yes.
- [47:54]
Camille
Well, hope everyone has a fantastic week. We'll see you next week.
- [47:57]
Philip
And from Italy.
- [47:59]
Camille
Oh, yeah, from Italy. Goodbye, everybody.