← The Art of the Brand
The Art of the Brand
The Super Bowl's Branding Controversy: Taylor Swift, Trump, & the Future of Ads
01:33:19
Loading summary
Transcript253 lines
- [00:00]
A
I think really where Kendrick Lamar executed was thought his outfit was fantastic.
- [00:05]
B
I don't understand why there's this separate control of that halftime event. I don't think it recognizes who the audience of the NFL is.
- [00:12]
A
I agree with that.
- [00:13]
B
I think it was an anti celebrity getting involved in politics angle. That's where I think the booing came from. And if she didn't make that comment, I don't think anybody would have booed her.
- [00:21]
A
So annoying. Because there's like the American commercials and then there's like the Canadian commercials.
- [00:27]
B
What a brand, what a brand, what.
- [00:29]
A
A brand, what a mighty good brand. Say it again now. What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand.
- [00:37]
B
What are we starting with?
- [00:38]
A
We're going to start with the Super Bowl.
- [00:41]
B
Talk about modern day controversy. In terms of branding and messaging, what did you find controversial about the Super Bowl?
- [00:47]
A
Well, I found the super bowl to be a little bit boring this year. I don't know if that's a controversial opinion.
- [00:52]
B
You mean in terms of the game or in terms of the branding?
- [00:55]
A
The game. You know, I found Kendrick Lamar to be a bit boring. I think really where Kendrick Lamar executed was thought his outfit was fantastic. Like he really understood his colors. Like I thought that was a great look for him. And then two, I thought the choreography of the dance was well done. Like it was visually interesting, but I found him as a performer to be bit boring.
- [01:17]
B
I don't know where to go with that because when I look at the super bowl this year, I thought there was tremendous energy behind the super bowl that was very positive in terms of the United States. Trump, first time ever goes to a Super Bowl. There's never been a sitting president who went to one before.
- [01:32]
A
Oh, really?
- [01:33]
B
So him attending there was a big deal? Yeah, it was a big deal. And he was cheered even though he didn't see that on. I think we should talk about Taylor Swift being booed and him being cheered and what that may or may not reflect in the audience or what's going on. But what I saw from the NFL is kind of two branding mismessaging. Because you had this very pro USA feeling at the Super Bowl. I think the national anthem was there, but then whoever organized the event I think took a. A deliberate right turn away from Chris Stapleton's national anthem, which brought everybody to tears a couple years ago. I found that the national anthem this year was artistic but not motivational. Like it was actually bad. And I think that was done. I think there was somebody deliberately doing something to try to kind of counter the Trump momentum. Because that super bowl show, you know, it was very Samuel Jackson. No, no, it wasn't. Pro American. Samuel L. Jackson was looking like the character from the Quentin Tarantino movie he was in, you know what I mean, where he was just critical of what's going on. And then Samuel L. Jackson would stand up and say, remember the rules. Play by the rules. And it was like, even it looked like a prison yard.
- [02:47]
A
Some of the.
- [02:48]
B
I think there was a little bit of an anti establishment movement movement in there that. That was deliberate in terms of the national anthem and the halftime show.
- [02:56]
A
You're actually right, because they, like, deciphered a lot of Kendrick Lamar's, like, lyrics throughout the songs. And that was exactly the theme. You're. You're dead on.
- [03:04]
B
So I don't understand why there's this separate control of that halftime event. I don't think it recognizes who the audience of the NFL is.
- [03:11]
A
I agree with that.
- [03:12]
B
Right. And I don't know why that keeps happening in a way that you don't have, like, a mix of all of the people who love the NFL being showcased in their, like, country music. Country music, you know, even some loud Latin music or something. That's interesting. As opposed to just this kind of angry rapper who is taking shots, I think, at the U.S. at a time when the U.S. was feeling very positive.
- [03:35]
A
True. Yeah. I. I think. Okay. To your point on the booing of Taylor Swift, I think that there was a lot of unhappiness. I'd actually like your opinion on this because I'm not super into football. There's a lot of unhappiness around the Chiefs getting in. And I really think a lot of people thought that they bought their way. And I think that the booing of Taylor Swift is more for what the kind of chiefs represent, where they're like this golden child that's getting passed through. Because Taylor Swift just came off of that massive tour where she's, like, at this height of being loved. So I. I can't connect her being booed to where she's at from a cultural moment other than connecting it to the Chiefs.
- [04:21]
B
I think I can maybe shed something. And it goes back to some of our other discussions about the end of celebrities and celebrities getting involved in politics. She deliberately came out and made some anti Trump statements prior to the election. Right. Even though everybody knows Travis Kelce is not anti Trump. He's just pretending. And so because she politicized, indirectly football because of her. She was in the news all the time. Because of Travis Kelce and then coming out anti Trump, then that's why she was booed. Because the crowd in the stadium was pro Trump or pro the movement that the country was going on. I think those boos were a reflection of anti celebrityism. It's like, stop telling us how to vote. You're rich. We're trying to pay the electricity. Even though most people at the super bowl were probably wealthy based on the tickets. But I think it was an anti celebrity getting involved in politics angle. That's where I think the booing came from. And if she didn't make that comment, I don't think anybody would have booed her. You know, she hasn't said anything bad about the NFL. She doesn't say anything.
- [05:20]
A
She hasn't said anything. No, she doesn't say anything. That's the whole thing.
- [05:23]
B
Except the pro Harris comment before.
- [05:26]
A
But has Travis Kelce said anything on. No, he just hasn't said anything.
- [05:29]
B
So. Yeah, his silence is something.
- [05:32]
A
Yeah. But you said even though he pretends. That's not pretending. If he's not saying anything, he's just omitting.
- [05:37]
B
He did say, say before the super bowl that it was a great honor that Trump would be at the game.
- [05:41]
A
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, we got, we got a note from Andrew that apparently he said he would be a great honor that Trump was at the game. But I think that that also speaks though, to having the president being president.
- [05:51]
B
For he was walking around on the field shaking hands with players. Right. But then they're anyhow so politicizing.
- [05:58]
A
I think it's a, it's a, it's an. Actually it's interesting. Right. It's like that we want, we just expect more from anyone who's in the public. Public sphere. Right. And it's this idea that celebrities are place where like, they're better than us. And that's what makes influencers so interesting is that like influencers are among us, you know, and like, and it's when you look at, when you look at even the way that I think Trump is being viewed and how Trump is, is navigating this is he's understanding what the pot like what the society is looking for, influential figures. And it's like Taylor Swift being in the highest, like up boxes. Like she's not showing up and like shaking hands with fans or like doing anything. Not that I'm saying she should, but just that she's not also kind of shows that stark difference between an influencer and a celebrity.
- [06:50]
B
Yeah, definitely. I think it's a shame because she's very positive human for American, right? And she. She could get on the pro America side, but she just now seems on the kind of anti America side. Her box is right beside Trump.
- [07:03]
A
This is what makes me annoyed, is that she just doesn't say anything. That's the problem. It's like, you think that she's a real, like, because she's not doing anything bad. And by default, that makes someone good, which in some ways it really does. Like, it really does if you're not doing anything bad. But I just, like. Like, even what she wore to the Grammys, she wore this, like, really sexy red dress. She looked amazing. Like, she really looked amazing. But, like, she had this, like, sexy thigh chain that had, like, a T on it in red, which was like, you know, obviously for Travis. And it's. There is. It's like we. We paint this, like, very, like, girl next door picture for her. And I just don't feel like it's. And I actually think that she. My only point, and I'll drop it. You know how I get riled up on the Taylor Swift thing. I just actually think she could just do, like, if we actually knew her stance, because I really think that she's thoughtful and educated and intelligent. It would just allow to, like, hold on to more. Like, I. It makes. It was funny because when. When she got booed, Philip's like, aren't. Like, not these words, but to the effect of, like, you know, Taylor Swift's getting booed. Like, aren't you happy? And I'm like, no. Like, I don't want her to be booed. Like, I don't. I'm not wanting her to be booed. I don't think that she deserves to be booed. I just. I feel like she's getting booed because nobody knows what she stands for. That's where I'm at.
- [08:25]
B
Fair enough.
- [08:28]
A
So, thoughts on the super bowl overall? I guess. What are your thoughts? Because you actually have a very astute opinion. So how would you sum up what you thought the super bowl was? And then we'll move into the ads.
- [08:36]
B
I think it was. I think the potential of the positiveness of the super bowl was subverted by the people who organized the national anthem and the halftime show. I think they deliberately tried to counter the zeitgeist momentum that was there to be so pro America. And I don't mean that the national anthem singer wasn't. I mean, it wasn't a. You can sing the national anthem in a way that makes people get tingles.
- [09:02]
A
And you make it about yourself or.
- [09:03]
B
You can make it about your own artistic whatever, right? And Chris Stapleton nailed it. One of the best ever. And this one was about. This is my style, and I'm going to hold notes. To me, that just. That was a bad start to it. But I think football one, I wanted the Eagles to win. Like, I like the underdog. I think I would love to see an Eagles Bills. I guess we should talk commercials. That's really where we're going on this, right? Super bowl commercials. I think super bowl commercials reflected a movement back to advertising principles, which is like, sell products. And my goal is that they were not scared of selling sex, selling things that make people buy. But I know you have an interesting take on who was in the commercials.
- [09:46]
A
I'm just laughing because it's, like, so annoying because there's, like, the American commercials and then there's like the Canadian commercials. And it's just it on the American side, it was. It's exactly what you're saying. It was a. It was a. It was a. It was a coming back moment. It is a moment of we're not chasing themes and things that don't connect to faceless businesses. It was completely focused on the sale. It was selling sexuality. It was selling. It was like speaking to human emotions. Like, it was going back to the core principles of branding. We saw some of the best commercials this year in a really long time. And one of the biggest things that stood out to me is influencers were a. Were the stars of the show. Like, it wasn't a hyper celebrity focus. You know, there was some ads that. But the ones that did it, like Michelo Ultra that we're gonna talk about, they didn't bring. It's like, I find, like, the celebrity commercials is always the same. You. You know, it's like the Kevin Hart, the Tom Brady. Like, it's like the same four or five actors that's like, recycled through like seven campaigns. And this year, to me, was really what advertising should be about. Like, the people who were in the ads were relevant, and that's what ads used to be. It was like the most relevant person at the time, not the most purchasable, like the Rock or Kevin Hart, you know, and seeing Alex Earl, like, she nailed it in the Carl's Jr. Ad. And it was like, unapologetically, what men that go to Carl's Jr. Want to see would like their. Their ideal woman to look like. And it is completely unrealistic. But it sells $2 burgers and, like, that's what we need to get back to.
- [11:30]
B
Business owners who have been terrified to actually properly target their audience now can see in the super bowl that there's a shift in the tide that you can now actually communicate to your audience without having to apologize. Because that, that influencer was off the rails.
- [11:47]
A
But it was like, it, like, it's actually, it's the, it's the social contract that we want with brands. And that's what's been missing, is that this. We've had this approach to branding that is like, we need it to come back to reality. And like, people don't want reality. They want to buy into a dream. They want it to be aspirational. Like, it, it's. It's meant to be ridiculous and funny. It should have shock value because you want it to be memorable. You don't want it who. Who actually eats the burger to be on the commercial. You want it to be almost so ridiculous that it stands out because you're fighting for attention. And it also has to make sense for your brand. And so many brands that, like, what is the difference between Carl's Jr. And raising Cane's and McDonald's and Burger King, like, other. Other than the nuance of, like, what, what they kind of put on the page. Like, it comes down to branding. And, like, when you're in a saturated industry, you have to stand out. And how do you stand out if you're all saying the same thing? Like, it doesn't work? And that's why we saw in this year's commercial is these big brands can no longer afford to burn cash, and they're going back to what works. So that's what you can learn from.
- [12:58]
B
The social contract concept, as you say. It is interesting because I. For the super bowl fan who's at home, who's going to buy a burger after work, that commercial made them feel happy, like, at a variety of senses. And then you have this connection with an audience by making them feel good and associating it with your product. And too many advertisements haven't been making the target audience feel good. They've almost been lecturing. Like, when you compare Canada, which is well behind the US in terms of returning to being proud of their country, you know, like, every commercial was like a diversity festival. And there's not. There's anything wrong with it by itself, but you're not connecting to anybody. Like, it just everything looked totally orchestrated to fill every box that could be. Could be filled. And so there was no strong advertising message.
- [13:47]
A
Well, it's actually, you're dead on. But it's also. It's just. It's. It's just like actually super simple. And that's why I'm making so many noises. Like, it's so simple. Like, think about it. If you have 20 million eyeballs watching the super bowl and you're trying to have your one of, sorry, what are we gonna say?
- [14:09]
B
I'm just saying in the States it was a lot more. But, yeah, whatever.
- [14:12]
A
The number is 100 million. 100 million people across the world. So. But. But it's dependent on whatever locale is seen the commercial. So let's just. Don't quote me on the number. I'm just gonna say 20 million. There's 20 million eyeballs that are looking, that are watching these commercials. And you're trying to get a return on investment from that marketing ad. Spend and buy. You want people to talk about your ad when they go back to work on Monday or on Tuesday or on Wednesday or on Thursday or on Friday. So what are you doing to make someone talk about your ad? Because the only reason you're creating an ad and spending all that money is to be memorable, is to be remembered, is to drive someone, to compel them to act. If you don't have a clear message, a cure. If you don't have a clear message and a clear takeaway if you're not being visually interesting and in some way, like, shocking or funny or emotional, like, if you're not making somebody feel you're not doing anything and you're burning cash. And that's the problem with, like, a lot of the Canadian commercials is that on the face. It's like on the face of being, like, inclusive and checking on the boxes is a good thing. The problem is that if you watch 30 commercials and it's all the same commercial for 10 different industries, none of them are memorable. And you don't leave watching that program being like, where am I going on Monday? I'm definitely not talking about RBC or Don Soap.
- [15:39]
B
You know what would be interesting commercial? I don't know how it would go over would just be the logo and then kind of in subscription watch to the end, right? And then for 30 seconds, people would just be watching the logo and then the next commercial would start up. It's kind of trickery. But you would burn your logo if. If that's all you want to do. If you don't have a message, you want logo recognition. But I found, like, most of the commercials on the Canadian side completely forgettable, whereas on the American side We're, we're pure entertainment.
- [16:09]
A
Okay, so let's move into two TikTok versus Instagram. So for those thinking that TikTok is suffering and your content is not performing, you're not wrong. It is been a very weird two weeks coming off of the proposed band that ban that was extended. Um, and I want to touch on what we know so that those who are feeling frustrated can at least get the best advice that we have in the current moment. It's definitely a breaking news environment because they don't share publicly that they've changed their algorithm, but it's clear that their algorithm has reset or they took away from the background or the back end of the app. What made TikTok so special because the sorting algorithm has completely reset or changed.
- [17:03]
B
Yeah. And this conversation came from you noticing how TikTok was acting differently with some of our content post relaunch or whatever.
- [17:11]
A
Oh my gosh. Like the content now is not performing at all. Like what's performing right now is like what was. What was once like abysmal from a. This. How this performed and it's taken away the live feature. So what's really frustrating is like a big push that I was really advocating for product based brands was to do lives because like lives are doing really well. It's no longer on the top anymore. No, it's not.
- [17:33]
B
And it's still available, isn't it?
- [17:34]
A
Not in the states. In Canada it is, but not in the States.
- [17:36]
B
Oh, in Canada it is. Okay. That's why. Cuz I thought I saw live in Canada.
- [17:40]
A
No. And they also. Yeah, they have it in Canada but not in the States. And which is a problem. Right. Because like a huge. One of the biggest audience mapping was in the United. Was in the US Like. Right. So the app, the algorithm has changed a lot. And it's. For those who are wanting to launch on TikTok. I would hold off. I'd be doubling down right now on Facebook especially. But the meta based platforms, Instagram is pushing everything right now. So it's really a strong time to grow and build up that Instagram and Facebook community. Because TikTok is, it's just not sorting, it's.
- [18:18]
B
Here, let me. Can I jump in?
- [18:20]
A
Yeah.
- [18:20]
B
Cause I started studying this when you brought it up. I think Instagram and Facebook and Meta are making a move to try and capture some TikTok market share.
- [18:29]
A
It is, yeah.
- [18:30]
B
And I think they're doing that by supporting. Supporting influencers. And Gary Vee has talked about this. But what TikTok has done I think is it's not promoting people who have lots of views in the past, it's only promoting people based on if you make content, do the first 10 people engage with it? And so it doesn't care if you've had a million views. It's like, do the first 10 people engage with it? And it doesn't promote it the same way. Your followers may have it on their feed and they like it. But in terms of. So I'd say from a strategy perspective, I would take old TikTok videos that did very well and I would put it on Instagram. Right? But from a TikTok perspective, it's actually not a bad time to get into TikTok because you can compete on a more equal playing field. Because now I think too many influencers just got a little lazy. They just kept making the same type of content and said, hey, because I've got a lot of followers, I should have the same engagement. And the onus on TikTok is your content has to be fricking amazing. It has to be the first 10 people who see it, like, engage, share. And then any small business owner can go viral with a million views today. If your content is entertaining, that's a fact. Any piece of content on TikTok, it's not dependent on followers.
- [19:41]
A
No, no, this is where you're wrong. So where it was a fact is that TikTok's algorithm always prioritized quality of content over number of followers. That was what made TikTok so interesting, is that you could have no followers with videos that have hit the millions. Because where TikTok rewards you on the follower push is when you have more content to keep people more engaged versus virality is completely dependent on quality of content. Instagram, you are correct. Instagram is harder to grow because it's based off of number of followers. So they don't push your content if you don't have the verification from a follower count. Because Instagram was founded from Facebook, which was more fixated on like, how many friends do you have? Right? It was like, about building up the numbers of how many people follow you. That was like the goal gold standard. Now, what's complicated with the TikTok algorithm is that it's no longer pushing content based on algorithmic preferences in the same way that it once was. And I'll give you a context example. So content that we've posted or reposted that did very well in the past will get a lot of saves disproportionate to how many views it's getting. So typically, if I would get several hundred saves or several hundred like DMS or like 25 to 50 comments, you could expect the impression the eyeball range to be within a certain. Like, because it's like a number game. Right. Like, if you get 500,000 views, the likelihood of getting 10,000 saves is. Is more likely than if you have 12,000 views, but 10,000 saves. So what's weird is that the algorithm is pushing it to people who really like your content, but it's not feeding it to a larger number.
- [21:28]
B
I think the saves are coming from followers and you can click on your followers and watch the people that you like. And I think you have tons of loyal people who like you and who save it. And that's growing every day.
- [21:40]
A
No, because I'm still growing and falling in new followers. It's just. It's slower than what it was.
- [21:45]
B
Yes.
- [21:45]
A
So there, there's a lot of creators are speaking about how.
- [21:49]
B
Yeah, but it goes back to our video where you said you're not shadow banned. It's. Your content's not good enough.
- [21:53]
A
No, the algorithm has changed.
- [21:54]
B
Okay. Or. But it's changed to value better content. That's new.
- [21:58]
A
I disagree. I think the algorithm changed because what bytedance wanted to. What they wanted to keep proprietary was their algorithm. So now they're actually gearing up to sell it. When the owner said he was never going to sell it, and because he said he was never going to sell it and he's now being forced to actually sell it, he took out what was proprietary and has basically kept out one that was like, good enough. More similar or maybe slightly better than Instant Instagram, but nowhere near where it was. Because the change, The. The change happened the moment they kept the. The extended the band. Because before that the algorithm was like killing it. It was pushing it. Like content that wasn't that good was getting like thousands of views from me versus the content that's going out now that is much better is not getting nowhere disproportionate to where it used to be. And that was after they extended the band.
- [22:50]
B
Okay. There's certainly some controversy and conspiracies here. Like that makes sense at a strategy level, although I'd be surprised that we couldn't. AI couldn't deconstruct or make a better algorithm now. So I think their value was in having the platform established and having the spider web in everybody's phone, because I think the algorithm could be recreated today with AI and where we've come. But their power was in their expanded spider web. But that would be interesting if they pulled back their secret sauce in thinking it's going to get sold so they can start another one. Like. But I just.
- [23:25]
A
Well, that was. The whole thing is like, as it was gearing up, another one came out of China called Red Note. And the algorithm on Red Note was also scary, incredible. Like within like five minutes of swiping, it was like all the shit that you actually would like.
- [23:38]
B
And like Red Note has to have enough content. So where did Red don't get the content from?
- [23:42]
A
Well, that's, that's a great question. But it had a lot of great content on it and a lot of creators were flocking to it because everyone thought that they like the algorithm was actually shut. The TikTok was actually shutting down. So a lot of people fled to RedNote. There was a ton of content on RedNote, but RedNote was still all in Chinese. So that was kind of what was like the interesting, like next up is after that the extension happened. Everyone is saying it's like the algorithm reset. Like stuff that's showing up on your for you page, like the timeline page is no longer longer the stuff that you would ever have seen before. It's like weird stuff is showing up in your. And like all like everyone on the team said this like the, the week coming in after that, they're like, I'm seeing stuff on my algorithm I would have never seen before and it's completely distorted. So I think also a lot of people left the app because people are lazy when they go on for like four or five days and everyone is saying it's changed and Instagram is killing it and it's completely pushing the algorithm and we all have multiple apps making a switch to like not go on another app. Over the course of like, we're talking about this being like a 14 day breaking news environment, right? So people can move over quickly. But it's clear that something actually changed in the algorithm and the sorting of it. And that's what I think happened.
- [25:01]
B
So are you telling people to get off Instagram? Like.
- [25:04]
A
No, I'm saying, I'm saying I think that there is the potential for TikTok to potentially gear back up. Whether it like fixes its bugs, it gets sold, or maybe it was a departure from people deleting the app or thinking that it was gonna change. Who knows? I think that there's a potential it's gonna come back again. So there's no reason, if you're someone that was on TikTok, be aware that this isn't just a you thing and that this is happening and keep posting. But this is a time to really double down and build up a community on Facebook and Instagram. Cause we've, we've been speaking to several huge brands and the last three months they've completely outperformed their roas on Facebook. Like, Facebook is really having a surge in a moment because it was like dead for like two years and like, brands were completely cutting ad spend and doing it all on Instagram and TikTok. Now they're actually seeing a net positive, like massive growth on Facebook sales. So it's a really strong time to focus on Instagram and Facebook. In fact, I was even talking with a brand yesterday and the same video that they posted on Instagram and Facebook, and there was like a bit of a storytelling to it. It's like the owner, she owns a clothing company, and they caught like in real time her asking her husband who like, works in the office with her to wear like a matching pink outfit for Valentine's Day. And they like caught the like, real reaction of them, like fighting and him saying no. And like. And anyways, the video, like, did horrible on TikTok, did like 800 views or a thousand views. On Facebook, it got 30,000 comments and like an insane amount of views.
- [26:37]
B
Wow.
- [26:37]
A
And on Instagram, because on TikTok that.
- [26:39]
B
Would usually do very well.
- [26:40]
A
Yes.
- [26:41]
B
Right.
- [26:41]
A
Yes. And on Instagram it did the same. It did like in. Maybe in reverse. It like 30,000 views and like, it was like just. It blew up on those two other platforms. And what I was saying to her is actually interesting. I'm like, separately, that platform doesn't make sense for you to focus on because, like, your core customer, which is like an older audience, really, like, it's. It's not that it's a waste of time. It's like you're. By not focusing on where your customer is if you only have so much time. It's not strategic to be like, doing videos on here if it's not generating money. And time is money for you versus fixating on both these platforms. But the other takeaway is these platforms are like, really pushing, like, insane. Like we've had in the last 30 days, like 1.3 million views to my profile, like, which is like, unheard of. But it's because the algorithm on Instagram, because the algorithm is pushing content, because they're trying to keep people on Facebook and Instagram While TikTok is figuring its shit out.
- [27:38]
B
It's weird. I wonder what you think like Instagram rather than scrolling through photos like the. The reels or the shorts. Yeah, like that should just be the homepage. If you were to ask me about Instagram. Because whenever I kind of click on, I can scroll 2 or 3 but then when I click on a video then I just start. I can go down a doom scrolling pathway. So why are we starting with the kind of image? Just because that's how it started. If I was Instagram, I'd be like, let's double down on these videos and take the market share from.
- [28:08]
A
Well, that's where it also, that's where Instagram's algorithm is interesting because Facebook started with the focus on friends. Right. When someone adds you, you're adding a friend. So the. And you're actually capped at only having 5,000 friends. So Facebook is actually fixated on. You actually know this person. Which is where Instagram came out of. So the origins of the algorithm is that there's a propensity for a lot of people to actually want to see the people they've know. They know like their milestones first. Whereas you're someone that would have migrated. Like a lot of people prefer TikTok over it because they actually don't care about their cousin's updates. They actually just want to go on and like learn stuff or like see zebra videos or like I just noticed.
- [28:51]
B
This on Instagram and it peak. It kind of crystallized when I was talking to. So when I scroll on Instagram it's got some people that are interesting and some. But the shorts, the suggested reels are like females. Like, like so they know I'm a male.
- [29:07]
A
Yeah.
- [29:07]
B
And they've put sexualized females. Like when you look at it like my, my grid is just normal people that I know. But then all of a sudden suggested reels are like women in bikinis.
- [29:17]
A
It's crazy. When I go on a guy's Explore page how I want to use like the word dangerous. But it's like it's so unfair to the human mind. Like if you're the platform that you're not selecting on the Explore page.
- [29:35]
B
Force suggests the four suggested reels are all.
- [29:38]
A
Are all highly sexualized, like naked women. And if you're not following any of those accounts, like how unfair is that to the human mind to just like be able to constantly be staring at that.
- [29:51]
B
If you're a young man and you. You're trying to use it for. But either they keep. And then you go there and now you're on doom scrolling like it's Showing you that they know the real is the way to lock you into it. And they almost kind of politely make it look like you're doing business, but then you end up.
- [30:04]
A
Yeah, But I also would say too, that, like, there's something to your, like, search behavior, because it's funny, is like you get so much golf and so much girls and like, it's like tertiary. And fourth is like business, but which is interesting because, like, you consume so much YouTube, that's more business content or political content. So it's interesting that Instagram can't quite figure you out, but it's probably because you don't spend a lot of time on Instagram.
- [30:29]
B
Yeah, right.
- [30:30]
A
Like, my Instagram is. It knows me.
- [30:32]
B
Yeah. Shopping.
- [30:34]
A
It's all sold fashion and shopping brands.
- [30:39]
B
Anyhow, stay on top of what's going on with the platforms. The number one rule is keep making content. Keep learning from your content.
- [30:46]
A
Well, that was like if you hadn't listened to the episode by Dan Roto. I highly recommend it because I had a massive aha moment in that podcast in that it. This is a part of the journey, right. It's like it's not going to forever constantly go up. And you also can't keep doing the same thing. And there are times like right now where you can't quite figure out if it's a you thing or if it's a TikTok thing. But if you always default to when you're seeing low numbers or stagnated growth, it's time for you to evolve. It's just a great way to stay fresh. And it's, I think for a lot of. Of especially business owners where they know they need to do this, but it's. It's like it's a whole other job. It's a whole other skill set. It's a whole other investment. You know, you have kids, you have employees, you have business to run, and now you have to create content. And then the idea of once you finally got a hang of something and it's been eight months and that you need to, like, take it to the.
- [31:48]
B
Next level is there's different criteria. If you're a small business owner, there's nothing you could do that's more important than doing content regularly in your local neighborhood. True, but you're not aiming to get a million followers. That's not your benchmark of judgment. You just want to be the best in your market in that area and allow people to get to know you. I think that's where people miss it is like, well, I'm not getting a million likes. It's like, well, you're not supposed to. You need 100 potential customers to see it. If 100 potential customers see your content, that's amazing, right? And actually engage with it. So.
- [32:20]
A
Okay, but that's a simple. Okay, so you make a good point. So simple. Step number one is don't be delusional in who and how many people are going to follow you. And that's a great point. Right? Like if you're a local business provider that has brick and mortar there, you know, there's a cap number and it's not, it's not larger than the number of people that exist in your city center. It's going to be a very small percentage of that. However, that's kind of like box number one on the delusional scale. But number two is, and I feel like we've got so many examples of this with like clients where we introduced like doing video three years ago. And you know, they're not, they now either have their own in house team or they have another agency and like they're just keeping the same thing that we told them to do three years ago and they're not innovating. And the reason why I say this is we. You're constantly challenging me on we need to create a new podcast format, we need to create a new style of videos, we need to like up the game of the room. And it's that moment of like when you feel like you finally are comfortable in how you're creating content. It's like hard to think that you need to keep evolving and leveling it up. So once you've gotten past the barrier of like what you need even there's small business providers that I can think of that are in this local area where I'm like, you're so good, but you're staying so stale online. And like you need to like level it up and like change it up.
- [33:43]
B
Can I create a frame that popped into my head? It's amazing how slow people are to adapt. But there are still, whenever you go online, people are like, sign up to receive email notifications.
- [33:55]
A
I've got a great point on this. Yes.
- [33:56]
B
All of those email notifications go to a junk. I don't see any of them. But every business is still asking me to sign up for them. Right? And they're. But they're all going to junk.
- [34:06]
A
You're so right.
- [34:07]
B
And so it's. But think of it, if you're a small or medium sized business, rather than have them sign up for local notifications by email that goes to junk. Make content that they'll watch because they like your product. So now your followers aren't subscribed to some stupid newsletter or email thing. Your Instagram is actually how they can stay on, stay connected to you. But yes, let me make your point.
- [34:31]
A
Well, I had this call a week ago, I don't even know, but she was a, a jeweler and she's like asked me a question about email newsletters and she's like, you know, I've had it on my website. I've had the pop up, you know, like, I've been kind of doing this for a year. And she's like, I've got like no subscribers. And I'm like, think about it. I actually had even my own moment. I'm like, if every website is asking you for their email for 10% off, I'm so exhausted for constantly pimping out my email for 10, 10% off that often never comes. But I'm at a point where I'm like, I just, it's not nuanced enough. It's not like it was initially it was interesting when a brand was like, okay, I'm gonna give you 15% off if you give me your email. I'm like, okay, perfect. But now if it's just like perpetually a nominal amount off, that's no different than every other brand. I'm at a point where I'm like, I just, it's more work for me to unscribe than the $5 that I'm saving. Which oftentimes the way that the Klaviyo flows is set up. You don't even get the email for the 10% off. So it ends up like a, it's.
- [35:39]
B
In your spam box and they make.
- [35:40]
A
You pain in the butt. And they're just.
- [35:43]
B
The reason why they're doing it is they're selling data.
- [35:45]
A
No, no, no. The reason why they're doing it, I'll tell you why they're doing it for the most part because the big companies, they actually have it figured out. And sure, there's a data component to it, but they've also made the laws so strict with like ST TPP that it's really not that, that like white labeling. It's very strict to like be selling your list because it's, it's a really big no, no. And there's like a lot of the way that the email systems like block it and Google is doing more and more to push it away. It's actually because it's, like, so less nefarious than what you think. It's a box to check. It's become one of those things that the web developers are like, okay, do you want your 10% off? Or the business owners are like, I want my 10% off box to get those emails. Because. Because people talk about email marketing. And what we did with this jeweler is I said, look, I'm like, why don't you just, like, change it? Why don't you just say, look, every month, someone is going to win that puts in their emails a free pinky ring. And the pinky ring is her, like, hero product. It's like a $1300 piece of jewelry. It's real gold. It's got diamond on it. It's gorgeous. And her email list subscriber went up 25% in the first week that she did it. And, like, she's growing email subscribers, and she's selling off of her emails because people are looking for her email to. To see if they won the pinky ring. And it was just such a small change of, like, actually creating surprise and delight, like, making people, like, want to look out for your brand. That makes all the difference. And so many business owners are on autopilot. They're like, I need to check the box with Instagram or check the box with getting my 10% off. And it's just. It's not effective.
- [37:22]
B
It kind of. It's a throwback to Elon. When he was building the Tesla plants, he actually questioned why everything. And he found 13 parts on every car that are completely unnecessary. And once the engineering would say that safety needs it, and then he went to safety, and safety said, engineer needs it. So he literally removed 13 parts that were on every car that people were just doing because they used to do it on the past. So you have to innovate. If you're a small business owner, be creative. Use Instagram to get people to care about your business and allow them to get to know you. You want them to like you.
- [37:55]
A
Yeah, that's a great point. I actually want to. Before we wrap up on this point, it kills me to say this, but I need to talk about it because it is such a big part of our strategy right now that email marketing has such an insane and disproportionate roi. And it pains me to my soul because as a consumer, I hate junk mail, and I. We just have so much of it. However, the lion cereals that I've seen in businesses that do it strategically underscore it and bold Strategically and effectively generate hundreds of thousands of dollars yearly based on email marketing sales alone. And a lot of brands that are known for their email marketing, like Reformation is one of them. It really contributes to the brand experience. The problem with email marketing is that 99 of businesses do it wrong and they're. It's like super boring. It's not interesting, it's cookie cutter, it's not personalized exactly. But the brands that do it correctly. The objective ROI is every dollar that you put into email based marketing returns a 36 return on investment. $36 return on investment. So for every dollar you put in, you should be getting $36 out of it. But it has to be effective and strategic. And that's kind of the pain point because it's hard for me to give you that formula of like this is how it's going to be strategic or effective. So email, email marketing, there's a lot of brands out there that don't know what to do. They have this huge list. They may send out an email when they're doing a capsule collection, like they're bastardizing their list, opposed to using it as an effective tool to build a community. But that's like a huge trend to get ahead of because a lot of brands are doubling down on it and because text message marketing has really lost its cachet and it's a more personalized way to connect with your actual community than posting something on Instagram. Right?
- [39:56]
B
So text message is annoying me because it doesn't have the filters, right? So as soon as you agree to a text message like that, that message comes in like so it's right. And that. So it annoys me.
- [40:09]
A
It. You know why text message message. Do you know why text message marketing annoys me? Is because it's not good enough. And the brands that do do it good enough kill it. Like, I was having a conversation with a client the other day and we were talking about Coola, you know, that sunscreen brand that we've done a video on a while ago. So Coola is a fantastic sunscreen brand, but it's, it's like annoying expensive. So it's like one of those things where it's like the sunscreen experience is so much better than the sunscreen you get from the drugstore, but it never is not annoying to spend $36 on a bottle of sunscreen even though the experience is so much better. And the client was telling me and he was like, look, I do no text message marketing except for Coola because every once in a while they'll send you a 15% off only through text message marketing. And I was like, that is such a great example of text message marketing done right. You know, like, they don't message you all the time, but when they do, it's.
- [41:08]
B
It's not a fake sale.
- [41:10]
A
It's actually something worth looking for. And they don't do sales. So they only do this like two or three times. And he goes, when they do it, he goes, I buy like 10 bottles because he knows that they're gonna buy it. He's got a family of four or five. And he's like. So I, I stock up and he's like, they don't abuse messaging me. And I'm like, that's text message marketing done, right? It's not like most of these brands, they get your number and then they're like sen four or five texts per week for their pots and pans.
- [41:35]
B
And if they're intelligent, they have to know there's no way you're interested in their product that often.
- [41:39]
A
No, right.
- [41:40]
B
Like, you could have seasonal, but they think, oh, we'll get a number and we'll send you something every week. And like, honestly, I don't need to look at.
- [41:47]
A
They ruin it for all the brands. Like, if you just are like, look, I'm only using this Thanksgiving is coming.
- [41:52]
B
You may want to have some fresh pots and pans. Here's our one time. Like, that'd be a good.
- [41:56]
A
This is only for our text messaging list. It's 50% off today. You know, and I was writing the book today, and I was talking about brand death by a thousand cuts. And I used actually the case study of Aritzia because Aritzia, interestingly, has actually been around since 1984. So Aritzia started in 1984 and it didn't actually open up boutiques across Canada until 1999. And the reason why I was wanting to bring this back up and what's really interesting is actually two things. As an aside, I really want to do a full case study on Aritzia because I learned so much in like studying it for the book. But one of the things that Aritzia did really well was their clientele sales. And they would do two sales per year. One was at Christmas, one was always right in my birthday at the end of June. And it was effectively like seasonal clear out, right? But they would put the whole store on sale. But those who they consider their clientele. So people that spent within a certain threshold were brought into the store on a special day before, like Anyone else got access to the sale, they didn't close the store. So they made sure that like all the regular people, like, saw that people were getting taken care of especially. And they gave them a tablet. And it was like literally a physical, like, really well printed, like piece of, like plastic that would show how much each brand was on sale. So instead of pricing down each thing and like making it cheap, they're like, Babaton is just 20% off or Wilfred is 15% off. So I would be seen in the store carrying around a special tablet that people can see that I'm getting a special sale that they're not getting without everything else being like, marked down. So that while they're buying it full price, I'm getting it 20% off because I'm clientele. And Aritzia did. I never missed a sale because they made you feel special. They called you personally, they invited you into the store, they told you what days you could go in and. And then once you bought something, because you always boss me when you're making an intentional trip to go to the mall. They gave you a really high quality gift. So they gave you, like, it was like, actually something that you would keep. So they were like luxury beach bags. There were like retro speakers. And my point is, is that they didn't ruin a sale. Like, I feel like now at like Boxing Day, like, I never would go to the mall because like every mall, it's the sale that they've had on for the whole week before. It's not special unboxing day. It's the whole week afterwards. And like, even Cyber Monday, like, I bought nothing this year because it's just like the sales start a week and a half before Black Friday.
- [44:35]
B
I think what you're talking about today reminds me of something I talked about in a podcast earlier today when I was talking to an expert on strategy and tactics in the international world. But, you know, you create patriotism or morale by creating a superordinate goal, which means a goal that allows a community to rally around. And when I'm thinking about this in relation to businesses just doing bland text message, there's nothing there, right? But if you have a superordinate goal saying, hey, look, if I shop here regularly, I'll be given first dibs on clearance, I'll be treated to something bigger. You now have a bigger goal to show a reason to show community. And that's what Aritzia did in that it had people like you. People would aspire to be like that. There was a reason to do it. And that's missing in most of what we're seeing in the digital world.
- [45:27]
A
Totally. And, and Sephora did it too. They did Vib Rouge. Right. Like you got, you. You spent so much money and you got specific perks and it like was, it was like a thing worth having. Like, it was a. And it just. When you, when you. Everything you do should have a strategy and a. So what. And that's what's missing is that we, we approach things like it's status quo and then you're confused why it doesn't work for your brand. Like, I've spoken to so many brands this past year where their whole focus is on like, like being good for the environment and like socially conscious and like creating a good impact. And then they're like asking me what they should do for their Boxing Day sales. And I'm like, isn't your whole thing like to not be perpetually trying to sell more? I'm like, why don't you take a completely different approach and stance and say like, we don't participate in Black Friday or Boxing Day. Instead anything purchased, we're actually going to give 10% to, to the trees, the forest.
- [46:26]
B
That would be an interesting Boxing Day sales that we're gonna double what we give to the Rainforest Fund on one day.
- [46:31]
A
Because if you wanna shop today, if.
- [46:33]
B
You believe in this community value, this.
- [46:36]
A
Is what we're gonna do. And they loved the idea. And then they just felt like handcuffed. Cause they're like, oh, that just takes more, way more work than just like slashing everything by 15%. And I'm like, we've lost the plot. Like, we do things because we feel like we have to do them. And that's not the point of brand. The point of brand is to do things that make sense for your brand. And that' got critical mass.
- [46:57]
B
Like, but they got lazy about subscribers and team members and rewards cards. Like, they're just, they're everywhere. And so they've gotten lazy about it.
- [47:08]
A
Apps. Download our app. Like, I don't want your apps.
- [47:10]
B
I don't want more apps on my phone.
- [47:12]
A
No, I don't need it.
- [47:13]
B
I might have one app of the thing I go to all the time. But I think people need to remember that an existing company customer is worth so much money. And so you have to give your existing customer a journey to stay with your brand and to stay, you know.
- [47:27]
A
And it's complicated because like, interestingly, I also this week realized we did a video for Particle and I went to go tag them on instagram and like, they don't have an Instagram. You know, they've intentionally only have like a Twitter and a LinkedIn and, you.
- [47:42]
B
Know, where are they putting the video?
- [47:44]
A
No, he posted the video. I'm saying we had a tag and I just didn't find like, you know, initially I was like, okay, I respect it. You know, I'm like, you know, you're only being like where you need to be. But then on another hand, it's like, I also don't think that that's the right approach. I would say you should have an Instagram, but only treat it as a secondary website. So don't be focused on needing to post like three times per week or five times per week. Just outline whether it's once per week, like what you do.
- [48:12]
B
We haven't articulated this, I think, but I know where you're going. So for the. I interrupt sometimes because I know where Camille's going. But it's not one strategy for an account. Like, what you're saying on Instagram is there's two strategies. Because it's a secondary website, your Instagram has to pass, you know, the review of somebody who's looking you up. That's just it. It has that purpose. You have to have an Instagram account that if somebody hears about you and clicks on it goes, yes, that's what I want to. I want to work with that company. The second purpose is creating content to bring people to get your brand known or to get lawyers. But I don't think I've ever really heard too many people speak about the dual purpose of Instagram now.
- [48:50]
A
And that's what I'm kind of saying is like, we approach. We feel like we need to approach things in a one size fits all environment, right? Like, you can only have Instagram if you're posting three to five times per week and you have UGC and you have a face for the brand and you have a personal brand as a founder and you've all. No, these are all strategies that you need to decide what makes sense for your brand. And that's what's missing is like Black Friday should be approached strategically, right? Like, and. And it can be something that, that it might be strategic for you to pass on it so that maybe. And. Or it. The other thing too. That's hilarious. That where Sephora has done fantastically, and I don't know how nobody has pointed this out yet, is that Sephora does. So it like Aritzia does two big sales a year where like everything on sephora.com gets is on discount. And it's like a big year for people that get all of their cosmetics and hair stuff from Sephora because, like, that's the only place that they buy. So they'll stock up. What Sephora has started to do, which is brilliant, is they do their big sale, like, two weeks before Black Friday. So they do it so that, like, they clear the coffers of, like, what you're. You spend a thousand bucks, you have.
- [50:03]
B
No money for a makeup sale on Black Friday.
- [50:07]
A
And I was like, this is brilliant. I'm like, because they've completely placed themselves to have a sale at a different point in time so that their customer, their tribe is, like, getting excited, saving money, creating a cart. It's become this whole thing on socials where people are like, what's in my cart for the vib sale? Because you know that it's coming. And it becomes this whole thing where, like, women are sharing their hacks and what they're buying. And it becomes this massive event where people are spending thousands of dollars because they're stocking up for their six months of the year. But that's what I'm saying. It's like, have a strategy. Like, if Black Friday isn't your strategy, but you need to make sales, like, maybe you do a vib moment, you know, like, maybe it's. Or like Aritzia, like, just how can you do your thing so that it stands out and you get attention. That's all you're fighting for is attention and to get some kind of surprise and delight. Like, how can you get your customer leave and be like, oh, that's interesting. That's different. Like, how do you get them to tell someone they know that's your only thing you should be stressed about?
- [51:09]
B
There's a crap ton of strategy there. There's a whole podcast. That was brilliant.
- [51:16]
A
I've got one other thing to add in on this.
- [51:18]
B
Okay, let's hit it.
- [51:19]
A
It's kind of different, but I just feel like hitting you guys with everything. Everything that I. These good conversations I had this week. So I had another client of mine. It's a little bit different, but it follows the same vein before we move into marketing on the spectrum. So this client of mine has a bunch of followers but is unhappy with the success she's seeing on social media. And my initial response was, your followers are purchased because it doesn't make sense when you have have north of 70,000 followers and 15 views on your stories or, like, no engagements on your posts. Right? Like, to. To grow an account to 70,000 plus is a big feat. And it was very much like an absolutely not. You know, how could you suggest such a thing? It's actually because I just went off, you know, I want. I went completely dark for seven months. And. And because I went dark for seven months, you know, I've had a bunch of experts tell me that because I went dark for seven months, it's. I'm not posting every day. So the platform is punishing me. And I wanted to clarify that there are a lot of agencies that were buying followers for business owners that were investing in social media marketing early because there was a lot of pressure for follower growth.
- [52:45]
B
And can I just expand on that from a practical perspective? I know of agencies who would say, pay me $25,000 and I'll get your follower count to 2,000, and then they drop 800 bucks and they get the follower count. Like, that's a great business model for an agency that's not actually doing anything to get organic growth and to build a brand.
- [53:06]
A
Totally. And a lot of followers were purchased. And it's not like a lot of these business owners don't even know. And the reason why it's problematic. And what I want to touch on is, is no, if you have zero engagement or zero story view count, it's not because you went dark for seven months. Because the, the algorithm is actually more inclined if you come back and you have that many organic followers to push out your content because it knows that a large number of people are wanting to follow you. So if you come back. And that's why a lot of celebrities that don't actively use their socials, like when they come back and they like post something, it's actually the first thing on all of their feedback feeds, all of their followers timeline, because they want to reward that, that account for coming back because a lot of people have showed interest in that account. So if that account starts pushing content, they want that con that that account to be prioritized.
- [54:02]
B
I think also the algorithm understands quality of followers. So if followers, if your followers are active, then it'll post to them. But I think on a lot of.
- [54:11]
A
The purchased accounts, we see they're not real accounts.
- [54:14]
B
They have three to five followers and they're not. And they're not liking following, sharing, commenting, they're not real. So you were suckered into looking at your follower content but not engaging.
- [54:25]
A
And that's what I was saying is I was like, if you took off seven months, you wouldn't get 15 views on a story. And it Becomes a really uncomfortable. Like, I think there's a lot of people that are just missed their. The reason why I'm bringing this up is where the conversation went, which was really interesting was advice that she was getting from other agencies. Reinforcing that going offline for six or seven months would hurt your engagement. And my argument is the opposite. It will hurt your growth if you're not posting every single day or if you're not posting frequently. There's no incentive for the algorithm to push your account and you're not going to grow. But whatever you've retained will, will push it out proportionate to the interest and the activity of the followers that you have. And if you are, does not matter if you're not posting frequently, if those followers are real, you will get proportionately better than abysmal results. And that's. If you need like that's a good thing for you to know and to question if your followers have been purchased.
- [55:30]
B
So I had this question on, on X. If a bunch of your followers are dormant, how do you deal with that? Because the algorithm sees that your followers aren't really doing anything, so they don't push your. Do you start again or what do you do?
- [55:45]
A
So you shouldn't start again because there's no real benefit to starting again. So it's effectively the same issue. Like you either have literally zero eyeballs or you have less eyeballs that aren't as active. Now, the algorithm isn't going to punish.
- [56:01]
B
You because you let me throw something by you because my understanding from some research that I did is that the algorithm is triggered in some ways by how the first 10 views do and even in your followers and friends. So if all of your followers or most of them are inactive, it could send your content to 10 of your followers. If none of them engage with it, the algorithm will say, this is not good content. So don't you need to get rid of people who, who have no chance of engaging with you because they're dormant accounts?
- [56:29]
A
No, because the, because then the reality would be the same. Like if you have no followers, right, and you're posting content that has no follower, that you've no followers to, you're not going to get the benefit of the. So it.
- [56:41]
B
But you're not saying that you should keep fraudulent followers just because fraud followers.
- [56:45]
A
Are different than inactive followers, right? So if you have followers, like that's where I'm saying this is. These are very nuanced questions. Like if I had an account and they were like, let's say for Example, you had opened an account when your kids were young and they were a lot of like the soccer parents. All of those accounts, the algorithm of those accounts are clearly real. They're not made from the same ip. Right. Like, if they're not active and like, and you post content, you're. You just need to build up by consistency of content. Right. Like it's. But fake followers will hurt your algorithm.
- [57:17]
B
Yeah.
- [57:18]
A
And fake followers. I think that it's better to remove. It's a tough question because, like, there's really. No, there's really. Okay. It's a really tough question because it depends how many we're talking.
- [57:32]
B
I just don't want to, I don't want to guess when we're giving advice.
- [57:35]
A
Yeah.
- [57:35]
B
Like if somebody has 50,000 fake followers and the problem.
- [57:39]
A
If you have 50,000 fake followers but 20,000 real followers, it doesn't make sense to restart to zero.
- [57:46]
B
No, but it makes sense to have 20 because the algorithm will see that your followers are engaging, but it's very.
- [57:52]
A
Hard to get the 20,000 to follow you on another account.
- [57:55]
B
No, I'm saying. So how do we get rid of the fake followers?
- [57:58]
A
The fake followers. The fake followers. Here's the problem. What the fake followers are doing for you is that you're not going to get the engagement rate of what 50,000 followers truly looks like.
- [58:15]
B
Well, of course, but I think it's actually more detrimental to your good content because they're not responding. And so the algorithm says these followers aren't responding to new content.
- [58:24]
A
I think the algorithm knows that they're fake.
- [58:27]
B
Well, then it'll punish you.
- [58:28]
A
It. Yeah, I don't, I. You can't know because like the out. The applications don't tell you, but there's a lot of indication that a lot of the celebrities. This was like a few years ago, like the Lady Gaga, Selena Gomez. It was like this huge, like it was this huge publicity campaign that they actually analyzed them and they're like 70% of their followers were fake, like for like the biggest celebrities. And, and their accounts still continue to do well. So I think that it's just, it's based on benchmarking success. Like, the issue that I see is the clients whose con, whose, Whose accounts I suspect have fake followers. They're delusional in where their content should perform because they see themselves having an account with 70,000 followers. The issue isn't that the content isn't performing, it's that it's not getting the view count proportionate to the amount of followers that they have that they're happy with. So if they were starting out with having 6,000 followers and their videos did 700 views, 800 views, that's proportionately great to the ratio. But if they have 26,000 followers and 20 of the thousands are bought and their videos are only getting 600 views, it's still based off of the real followers. It's just that they feel because they've got 26,000 that the follower count is failing. Fake.
- [59:47]
B
What's interesting is should you keep fake followers that the algorithm knows is fake? I don't see a scenario in which you wouldn't be punished for that. You might still be doing okay, but you don't know how much bigger you could have grown with engaged followers.
- [60:02]
A
But if you weren't. But the larger issue is that people don't know when they've been purchased. These clients that I'm speaking to, they're not lying to me from an ego standpoint. Like they think they genuinely like they've got no contact to how hard it is to grow to 70,000 plus followers.
- [60:20]
B
But that's important information for a leader to make a strategic decision. Like if you don't know that, then it's hard to make the right decision. So I would say that they need to know conclusively do they have fake followers or not, regardless of what the opinion is.
- [60:34]
A
Well, but that's the issue when it comes to conclusively because you're like, you're. The issue is complicated because who's going through 120,000 followers? Every single one of them. And that's the other issue too. Is that because the iPhone screen or the loading screen is so slow, it's a very laborious task to go through every single follower. It's a better guess to make based on your engagement rate. Now there's two elements to that because you can be shadow banned. So when what. One of the things that's relevant that doesn't get spoken to enough is that if your content becomes super sales focused and your followers aren't interested and they keep scrolling past it, it stops showing up on their in feed and in their stories. So you actually like can genuinely be a real follower and you don't see any of their content because it's, it hasn't. You haven't indicated it's interesting to you. So what is happening to a lot of businesses is that their followers are real and they're not getting engagement because for several months the strategy was bad and they stopped engaging. So they are being like banned from their Followers. The second issue though is if you had a. But that's. But the nuance to that is more I find two businesses or to brands that are like hyper focused on selling, whereas more personal accounts that can have these like huge numbers of followers if there's no engagement, it's purchased. Because if you're a person and you've personally grown to 70,000 plus followers and you're getting no views on your videos even if you took six or seven months off, like if you did a hard stop off, opposed to like posting a bunch of like crappy content, you have a purchase follower account that was probably bought by your last agency. Most businesses why they get so frustrated about marketing and branding is that the roles and the professional exists on a spectrum. And the problem with the industry is that there's one word to describe who you want to hire but the skill set can vary so greatly.
- [62:54]
B
Yeah, I think you should tell that in, in the context of what we're experiencing within our staff.
- [62:59]
A
Yeah. So we had inherited someone, you know, there's a longer story to this but we had inherited someone that was a really lovely person but really not the right fit. And it was a bit of a disagreement between Philip and I because I was failing to articulate what the issue was when there was no real issue. And the reason why this is like nuanced and complicated is that. But I can sit down at a table and we can all say that we're in marketing but there's a, there's a very different deliverable that comes to each person at the table. And this further kind of goes to where AI is going and where I think marketing is going to have a massive segmentation. There's going to be a lot of jobs that are going to be available in this industry is because the approach to marketing is not equal. And the way that I explained it to you, which released your aha moment and I really want you to go into it is I said look, I'm like, like this person is very friendly, they're very kind, they're very lovely. But this is very much someone who is going home and or works from home and at the end of the day is closing her laptop and never like looks on social media to learn anything about marketing has no pulse on what's going on in the industry, is not doing anything to like read, absorb and learn and to expand their thinking. Marketing is very much a paycheck and it's you know, moving around graphics, maybe typing some emails. But it's an in house role that's very different than the level of investment I feel in this industry and the caliber of thinking that we. That our team would bring to the table. And that was where there was like a massive, like, disconnect. Is that our team are people who are like, every day sending me like 5, 10 videos on Instagram TikTok. They're consuming YouTube videos. Like, we're reading books as like, teams. Like, we're at a different level.
- [64:53]
B
Yeah. What was fascinating to me is I didn't understand why the person wasn't fitting in because I didn't know them that well. But as soon as you explained it to me, I just. I had this aha moment. Is that the people who have come to our team, a lot of them through some of the top. From some of the top agencies, some of them came to our team and took a 50% pay cut. And that aha moment came, synergizing that reality with this reality is the people who want to do marketing at the level we do are like top 5 percenters in terms of intellect, curiosity, creativity and passion. Like, we had somebody say, look, I'm getting paid a huge amount of money in a corporation, but I can't use any of my creativity and I'm not passionate about anything I'm doing. I want to come in and work with businesses and do dynamic, strategic, brilliant things. That's marketing at one end of the spectrum. Like, the artist who's passionate at the other end is somebody who just who moves product around. But they all come under the same label, which is. We almost need to kind of structure the credentials of the industry. I think even people just say that they work in creative and they just put together simple graphics. It's not really art.
- [66:02]
A
And where this came from is that one of our partners on another project is a lovely human being. And he just sees marketing as like, like accounting, you know, or like. Or like a construction worker. Like, you know, how to lay cement. Perfect.
- [66:19]
B
Move product.
- [66:19]
A
Move product. And. And it. It was a really nuanced and kind of difficult thing to overcome because. Or to work through because it's. I know that marketing is not created equally. Like, I know that, like, the problem with the industry is that there's no, like, there's no designation or test you have to take or specialized credential. And that's what create. Creates massive variance. But I didn't really get it in the simplest terms until I was faced with. With working with someone that I would have never hired. And it was at that moment where I'm like, you're such a lovely, good person. But what you do, it's like you're almost not even in the same industry as me because what, what you're doing, that's marketing is in no way what, what. And not even me being like, at the level that I'm at, but like, even where. What, how I even conceptualize the field. Like, we're just, we're, we're not both in construction. And I think that that's a really interesting takeaway for business owners in that you should be looking for people at whatever rate that you can afford that are at least hungry, especially as a founder and a business owner. Like, a lot of these marketing people are very much like, you know, I can use Canva, I can string together a few sentences, I can market your business, and that's where you need to be. Where. And you can burn a lot of cash because it, it very is probably better for you to do it than to be hiring someone that's not even really that interested in their own career.
- [67:44]
B
They're really, you're really just hiring an administrative person and then giving them a title that they're working in marketing and then they're, they're moving products. But you're not getting the art of marketing or the art of the brand in terms of creating something that's truly valuable.
- [68:00]
A
No. And it's like just, it's super relevant because we're, we meet so many business owners that are like, I'm so frustrated. I hired this person. I spent so much money. We did X, Y and Z. It resulted in nothing. And it's like, well, duh.
- [68:12]
B
Well, you know what's interesting is when I look at the credential, I was just. I always go back to the military. If somebody says they're in the military, that can be, you know, newly trained to special forces. Right? Like there's, there's a level. So that phrase marketing, you have to be aware of. But the way that they credential in marketing is you have an MBA in marketing, which really doesn't encompass, I think, the strategy or the creativity that's needed. But that's considered the highest level of marketing, is going through an MBA program that rewards math rather than creativity. Like, ask your person, show me the most creative thing you've ever done. I don't think there's a lot of creative actually in that area.
- [68:52]
A
No, that was marketing on the spectrum. Spectrum. Today's hot or not is that Michelob is hot and Starbucks is not. So let's first kick off with Michelob.
- [69:03]
B
Michelob Michelob, Ultra Michelin, Low calorie. The reason why I think it's hot is because it's recognizing that there is a demographic of high income, high spending capacity people in the. Just below the boomers who want to feel proud about themselves. And so they use celebrities to unabashedly celebrate being cool and older and embarrassed a young couple and just double down on using celebrity to be entertaining and make their product cool. Amongst the market segment that spends money.
- [69:36]
A
I think that you nailed it. I think that commercial was awesome.
- [69:40]
B
Describe it, maybe solve it.
- [69:42]
A
It's like emotional. It makes you feel. It's like it's. And it's one where you don't. It's not that it hasn't been told before. Like, it was creative and it was interesting. And I, I feel that's really what's missing in brand campaigns, especially at the highest level is they're giving them a storyline, but there's just nothing impactful about it.
- [70:02]
B
Yeah, I thought there was somebody really intellectual behind it because they used Willem William Dafoe and I can't remember the lady's name who's been in a bunch of comedies was on SCTV, Catherine O'Hara. So they're kind of like, you know, people in their 60s or. And then it's also making fun of pickleball, which has gone crazy popular.
- [70:21]
A
Right.
- [70:22]
B
And so they weren't marketing to the cool people. They were marketing to people who are looking to enjoy their life, who play pickleball and don't want to have a lot of calories. And so they kind of took on a young couple in a pickleball match and the young couple was like, we'll kick your ass. And then, you know, I recommend watching it because it's a great way to tell a story and use celebrities intelligently to create support for your brand. So I thought that was one of the best commercials I've seen in a way, because it. We have a phrase, if you can, taking the piss out of yourself. They're kind of making fun of, of, of the people who might drink their product, but like not being embarrassed to just say, hey, we love pickleball. We're super health conscious and. And we kick your ass.
- [71:03]
A
And the, the takeaway is that everybody enjoyed it. Like, that's. I, I think it's like, I talk about controversy so much and, and there's just so many people that fear the beast that don't exist. You know, like, they just want. They're just like, they're so paralyzed by, you know, oh, but, you know, not all pickleball people are old. And. Oh, no. Like, what if the old. Like, what if our old. The older people get insulted? And, like, they're just. They create all of this. All of this anxiety to not create something that is just funny. And that's what, like, we're missing is like. Like when you're having a brand moment, it needs to be a moment, and a moment has to say something.
- [71:42]
B
And you mentioned earlier the social contract with the brand. When you watch that video, if you're an older pickleball player who wants to see themselves as healthy and still athletic, not washed up, they watch that and they get a social contract. They're like, michelob knows me, right? Like, I want to play. I want to be active and seem cool. And it's not just young people who are cool. Like, they. They made a connection with their target audience. That's always really good.
- [72:05]
A
100%. I've got another quick hot before we move on to the knot. And this week for Valentine's, Door Dash did a whole campaign about. And it was, like, kind of risky. It was like this whole, like, threesome concept. So it's like the couple and the door. Door Dash is like the perfect threesome. So it's like it will. It will give you. It will deliver you flowers, will bring you chocolates and wine and. Yeah, like, so it. And it was like, it pushed the envelope, right.
- [72:37]
B
Like, without really pushing it.
- [72:38]
A
Without really pushing it. But, like, it was just. It was funny and it was good.
- [72:42]
B
That goes back to your point earlier. There are always going to be people who say no, who say you're pushing the envelope. But then you need intelligent people to say, are we really pushing the envelope? Or we're just being funny? Because Doordash, saying it's the perfect threesome, like, on its face, isn't really. And it's just a play on words. Right. So it's a brilliant campaign. But I think, like you said, many marketing departments would have kiboshed it.
- [73:06]
A
Yeah. And who are you really insult? Like, I think a lot of these campaigns, they really connect with those who they connect with. Right. It's like, if that isn't really your humor, you're probably not going to be, like, overtly insulted that you'll never use them again. You'll just be like, yeah, okay, whatever. Not for me. And like, you move on. Right. Like, you can get what they're doing. And that's what's missing is that there was there. There used to be this, like, cheekiness or humor that would come with a brand that, like, you took it for what it is, or you're like, I. I respect what you're doing and I'm gonna move on. Cause it's not a hundred percent for me. And it's. And it's. That's. What's missing is because by not having that risk, even though it's not really risk, but just being like, having a bit more of it being risk, it just. It actually is what allowed you to get a better sense of what worked. Because the default is now saying nothing. And it just. There's no. There's no benchmark to compare when everyone is saying nothing and nothing is really working.
- [74:04]
B
But this industry requires intellectual, creative thinking. That works because DoorDash knows there's a lot of couples trying to have fun evenings. Probably that even when I came into.
- [74:18]
A
The office, Elaine, who is Philip's older law clerk, she was like on Instacart trying to order her wife flowers. You know, like, it's. It also is like it. It's the reality of where we live. She's like, you know, the. The schools are canceled today or whatever from snow. And she's like, she's stuck home with the two kids today. Like, you know, I need to get something to her. Like, I'm gonna send it on Instacart. And it's such a perfect. When he Like Doordash being somewhat similar, it just shows you. It's like it actually connects to how people are using it in a panic situation.
- [74:50]
B
Like, and you need a hook to get people's attention.
- [74:53]
A
Yes.
- [74:53]
B
So if you say the perfect threesome partner, people are gonna read the next line regardless.
- [74:57]
A
They wanna know where you're going.
- [74:59]
B
Yes, they're gonna read it regardless. And then if you have a plausible tie that says, hey, we actually are an addition to your couple, just not the way everybody else thinks it is. It's brilliant and beautiful all around. Aligned hot to doordash for everyone.
- [75:13]
A
Hot to doordash. I've actually got a bunch of knots on the Halloween on the. He did that to me yesterday on the Valentine's Day front. Not really worth. I just feel like it's Valentine has also become an unnecessary moment to sell product in like, three color waves, like pink, red and white, with pink and red on the white. And where I think that it's going is I feel exhausted as a consumer. Like, I feel like the perpetual consumerism is going to be on a decline. Because initially I thought it was really quite sweet when skims would come out with like, A holiday collection. But now I just feel so inundated with purchasing and I as the consumer is like, is getting older and sick of like we got so much stuff during COVID I feel like there's just such a decline on like I just don't need as much stuff and.
- [76:06]
B
Good dear.
- [76:07]
A
I'm hearing from so many brands that like sales are just nowhere near where they are and they're sure there's economic ramifications, but I also just think it's this like perpetual over consumption. And I found a lot of the Valentine's Day campaigns this year were like lazy. They lacked that creativity of like this is interesting, this has a hook and it was just like another ad.
- [76:27]
B
So let me jump in. So what's not. Is doing ads because you supposed to do ads because like you say if, if people have over consumed and there's going to be a shrink, it's going to thin the herd. And the way you survive is having a loyal customer base that trusts you not to just be constantly selling them things because. Because those are the first things you stop buying as opposed to the things that have meaning behind a brand for you. And if. Yeah. So it's not cool to just be pushing your product under the umbrella of whatever holiday is that month without anything special or creative.
- [77:00]
A
Yes. Yes. Nailed it.
- [77:02]
B
Do you have an example of that or you want to just move on to our.
- [77:06]
A
I really wasn't impressed with skims. You know, like they brought on one of the bigger K pop singers. There were some other fitness brands where I was like, they were kind of one of the highlights like roundups for the week. But it was just like pink and red activewear and I'm like, this is lazy. Like I really didn't find that. It was like Reformation did a good job. They partnered with Pete Davidson and it, the whole idea is that like Pete Davidson is like Reformation's like boyfriend. So like all the girls that like love Reformation, he's like their stand in boyfriend. And it was like it, it was a, a good social moment because it connected with like that consumer base of like the 25 to 35 like working woman who might be single or who's in a relationship and thinks that that's funny. Like they did a good job of being on brand for their consumer. But I just found like oh, sweethearts did a fun, funny one. So sweethearts, all of the hearts that like were like misprinted so they like did they call it like a situationship and they've like fixed the misprinted ones so that they're like. When you're like not dating, but like, you can like give someone some sweethearts because you're in like a situation.
- [78:19]
B
Oh, that's a good term. Situationship.
- [78:21]
A
Yeah. So I thought that that was good. But for the most part, I was just very underwhelmed by Diptyque coming out with a pink and red candle for Valentine's Day. You know, like, it was like, okay.
- [78:33]
B
Valentine's Day protein powder. Her. It's a great.
- [78:35]
A
Yeah, it's like killer. So that is. But the knot. So let's move on to the knot because this is really not a Valentine's Day knot. This is very much a Starbucks is just not it right now.
- [78:50]
B
And coming from people who are extremely loyal to that brand. And I think when you say death by a thousand cuts, you know, what we've seen is this gradually not valuing the Starbucks experience the same way. Having probably spent thousands and thousands at Starbucks over the.
- [79:06]
A
Well, really what it comes down. So the, the brand death by a thousand cuts is a concept that we came up with where brands die slowly. They don't. It's not typically a proverbial blood Bud Light moment. You know, like, it's. It's over time and you have some really interesting. So the new CEO has come in and he's basically. It's like a cleanup job because, like, the company is like on a major decline. But I'm not shocked. There was a moment a few years ago where the stat was crazy. It was something to the effect of a new Starbucks was being open, open in the Asian market every 15 minutes. Like it was that crazy of a stat. Like it was based on a time increment, like not even a day increment because they were expanding so aggressively in the Asian market that the brand death by a thousand cuts concept really I find tends to like manifest when brands go public. Because it's seldom that it's like one bad decision because they're so risk adverse. Like they actually like say nothing and almost do nothing. But it's like by virtue of the doing nothing and expanding and cutting corners by focusing on profits, you can't therefore focus on brand and the brand starts to die. So that it gets to the point where we never go to Starbucks to the point where like the other day we were walking by a Starbucks and you're like, on King Street. And they're like, how. Which is the main main street. And they're like, how, like, who, like how does this, how does this company keep their rent? Like, who goes to Starbucks anymore. And I really, at that moment, it was fun money. To me, Starbucks is in like dire situations. You know, like I'm at the airport and there's nothing else there. I'm going to Starbucks or I'm like in a rural town and the option is like Dunkin or Starbucks. To me, it's never like first, first choice. It's like dire necessity. And it really made me think when you brought that up, Starbucks.
- [81:01]
B
I think everybody should like think of their favorite or first Starbucks moment. Right? There was a time where Starbucks actually represented something that we hadn't experienced before. Like it was a warm, welcoming place where they cared about our name.
- [81:15]
A
Yeah, they did.
- [81:16]
B
And I loved working there. In some cases I found like, I could do better work.
- [81:21]
A
Like working with your laptop. Like working.
- [81:23]
B
Yeah, like making it a destination. Going and working there. And Starbucks was known, staying on the. On the theme of threes as the third place. Like you had home work and in between, with Starbucks, you would go there on the weekends. But then as to speak to your point about metrics, once financial metrics come in and growth come in, they start closing ones that don't have a drive through. Because with a drive through, people don't have to sit down. You can sell more. That makes sense. They start doing the remote orders and then they have a printer that puts a sticker on your coffee as opposed to when they used to write your name on their. The coffee. So all of a sudden it becomes less personal. And then some places that really annoy me and it's probably because of the homelessness issues as well, They've taken the chairs out. So that place in the community that we used to go to sit down and see people and connect, there's no chairs out. What's that telling me as their consumer is I don't matter other than I'm purchasing their overpriced drinks. Right. It's like, let's move it through as fast as possible. Let's stick a sticker on it. Let's have a mobile pickup. Let's have no community that goes contrary to the brand. The new CEO has come in and said, look, we're going to start putting names on it again. We're going to reduce the menu by 30%. But I wanted to ask your opinion because that logo used to mean something to people as elevated coffee experience, and today I don't think it is. So how would you go about a brand refresh for a company like that that's trying to go back to what was important?
- [82:49]
A
I Just don't think that's the issue with Stark Starbucks. I think the what you highlighted like it was the original, like what Starbucks did, what Howard Schultz did 25 years ago. Plus like this was business was started in the 80s is coffee culture was nothing in the North America like it was in Europe. And it's the same issue that we spoke about with McDonald's. To me, in that Howard Schultz created a category that existed and was proven in a different market. Europe brought that to North America, struggled, perfected it and then grew it. And within that time coffee culture has become more largely adopted and the competition has greatly increased. And you brought up this great point because you were talking about how McDonald's for the first time ever has had multiple down quarters. And you brought up a really astute point when we were speaking to your daughter in that the what Uber Eats did is it allowed a better selection of options. So prior to Uber Eats your fast food choices were McDonald's, Taco Bell, KFC, pizza, different versions of shit. Now when I open my phone it's like Thai food, Vietnamese, Indonesian, Dutch, Japanese. Like you, you have a higher quality opt option at not that different of a price point.
- [84:19]
B
Think of it. So the exposure to more options changes the brand position of. So in the past McDonald's used to be the go to place. Like if you had the munchies.
- [84:28]
A
Yeah, right.
- [84:28]
B
Or at the end of the night or whatever you did, it was a treat. But as soon as Uber Eats or doordash or any of these things come up now you have so many more options. The brand of McDonald's is not. Where does it sit now?
- [84:40]
A
Nowhere at the same demand as where it was was. And that's where I think Starbucks is to me the same in that Starbucks was very novel when it first entered entered into the market because it like standardized and represented a streamline small town coffee concept at a much bigger level. Like it was very interesting and tantalizing. Like it was a thing that you could like go from city to city and then they introduced these cups and you could collect. When you go to Starbucks in different cities or different countries, like you could. And it just, but with that also came great like Blue Bottle Coffee. You know, Blue Bottle is doing a great job. Like their branding is fantastic. It feels more like a small coffee shop.
- [85:24]
B
You know what happened is it goes back to a lot of the stuff in the book is the product was good when it started. Like you couldn't get equivalent across cities of what Starbuck was offering. And but once you lose the experience that Starbucks represented. All you have is products that could be copied and done better down the road.
- [85:47]
A
And it was.
- [85:48]
B
So then, now Starbucks becomes convenient because it's got a drive through. But it's not a premium brand anymore. It's just what Starbucks has kind of become is the best drive through coffee.
- [85:59]
A
Yes.
- [85:59]
B
Right.
- [86:00]
A
No, that's. And that's where, when you're talking about the rebrand, it's like, I don't. The issue with where Starbucks is is that, that I don't think that Starbucks needs to be rebranded. I think that the company needs to relook at what's realistic for perpetual growth. Like there's going to become a point where the Starbucks experience is just the Starbucks experience and it has its role in its place. But that's what it is like.
- [86:26]
B
Or, or if I may, sorry for interrupting the. What Tim Hortons did in Canada is they became a variant of Wendy. They became a drive through provider of coffee and food. Starbucks. I wonder if this is, but they're.
- [86:40]
A
Even doing like the Starbucks things too. Like they've got lattes, they've got Americanos.
- [86:43]
B
Yeah. But I'm saying for Starbucks, Starbucks should just try to win the drive through coffee and food.
- [86:48]
A
But this is where I just, I, this is just where I feel like it's worth. Starbucks represents consistency. Right. Like when we're traveling in different cities, the reason why we'll stop at a Starbucks is it's either like proximate, they had good real estate estate so it's like easy to go to and the app was easy to use. So when we were in New Brooklyn, we'd go to the Starbucks. But the experience or the cachet of what it was once was, was lost because it's no longer novel. So it's, it's disappointing when I go to the Starbucks and the employees are rude or like they don't feel like they're on brand and the experience doesn't match the $8 I'm spending on a consumable drink that's done in 10 minutes. But, but also I also feel like the, the, the reason why I go to it is also because it's like in my brain as like a simple choice. Like I don't go to McDonald's, I don't go to Wendy's. Like Starbucks is my version of that. Right. So when we're driving to the cottage, I'm sooner stopping at the Starbucks that's on the en route because like I get my egg white bites and I get my latte and to me that's my version of McDonald's. Like it's a more premium. Premium decision maker. The decision choice. But the issue is that they think their product is still novel and they're trying to overcomplicating by adding more items to the menu and like doing more things. Like they just need to pare back and be a consistent, reliable coffee operator because they have the real estate footprint.
- [88:20]
B
Yeah, I'm saying that they shouldn't be a coffee operator. I think they should just get into their mass produced coffee and food. Food.
- [88:27]
A
That's what they are though right now.
- [88:29]
B
But it's weird if the CEO is going to be able to kind of recreate what Starbucks was and then be profitable. Because I don't see how you get more profitable when you've grown this much. Because going back to that brand means product.
- [88:41]
A
Yeah, you're not, you're not wrong with what you're saying. The profitability question is where it becomes complicated because they lost their brand when they became focused on profits.
- [88:51]
B
Yeah, you're right. Sorry, I just popped. What I might do if I was a Starbucks CEO or if he was smart enough to hire is I would create Starbuck boutiques that are, that are throwbacks to the original but then still offer the highways. You know, like how you have that tiered environment.
- [89:06]
A
Oh, that's smart. I, I do like when they do the Starbucks signature stores.
- [89:09]
B
Kind of like a lost leader.
- [89:10]
A
But it's no, we went to one in New York and I went to one in Chicago and I, I thought that those were actually, I think that they actually should have done more with those. They instead of doing less with those. Like I think that there.
- [89:24]
B
Because that's the last leader for the sales on the road.
- [89:26]
A
The biggest issue though that's worth discussing is perpetual profitability. That's the problem is that businesses expect forever increases on profitability and it makes it very difficult and impossible. While when at the heart of what made it successful was the brand. And to be focused on profits means that you're not focused on brand building and the two can't exist simultaneously. So as you go further down the profiting the profit line, it becomes harder to be hyper focused on the brand line. And that's where these conversations can't coexist.
- [90:11]
B
I think, I think to dig down on that you can always seek to grow more revenue and profit. Profit. But you should have a process that says not at the expense of my brand. Right. Because growing is good. But like if, if you're. Somebody is selling you to grow in A way that ruins your brand. It might not be the best long term decision. Right. But if you can grow and keep your brand identity or your brand contract, that's fine. But it's when, it's when MBAs and accountants come in and says, look, if we do this we can get way more profit and then you hurt your brand.
- [90:42]
A
Well, that's also what, that's. Yeah. And that's also what Cody Sanchez and Gary Vee were talking about. Right. And that what the investment banks can do is like they can make, they can just, they can bean count way better. Like they can streamline profitability, but what they kill is the brand because they're not creative and it's, it's irrelevant. When I think about really what Starbucks should do, like Starbucks hyper focus on growing into the Middle east and Asia. And because there was so much cachet with it being a western brand, it was Starbucks. That feeling that we had 10 years ago is what Asia feels right now. And really what Starbucks should do is, should create a new like a second brand and should basically roll out on a smaller scale. It'd be better be powered by Starbucks and it'd be like a totally new model. So that there it reintroduces novelty because really what Starbucks should be focused on in the same way that Louis Vuitton. And we realized this with the PL that offloaded from Turkmenistan. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you got to watch the Oman podcast is that a lot of these huge brands are hyper focusing on the wealth increase in the emerging economies in Asia and the Middle east. And that's where Starbucks should be focused it to me the cachet is done in North America. It's time to, to spin off and create a separate brand because like Chamberlain's Coffee is now opening brick and mortars. Like there's new competitors entering into the field that have a, that have new cachet to what Starbucks lost by chasing profit ability.
- [92:17]
B
Starbuck, I just think sucks these days, you know, and I miss it because it used to be a special third place for me, but I don't have that third place anymore.
- [92:27]
A
Starbucks sucks. All right, so that ends this week's episode of the Art of the Brand podcast. A reminder to submit your brand if you would like to have it audited on the show. We will be auditing brands every episode and you will get an email if you've been selected to be audited live on the show and we'll see you next week. I'm gonna cover a Walmart case study the importance of investing in a brand, ChatGPT how to use it and understanding the quality of the input. And I wanna break down why you need to be controversial and why not saying anything is killing a brand. Among other topics that we will work on this week, Keep branding.
- [93:09]
B
What a brand, what a brand, what.
- [93:11]
A
A brand, what a mighty good brand. Say it again now. What a, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand.