There Is No Monoculture Anymore and Beauty Will Never Be the Same.

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Art of the Brand

Episode: There Is No Monoculture Anymore and Beauty Will Never Be the Same
Date: April 5, 2026
Hosts: Camille Moore & Phillip Millar (Third Eye Insights)
Guest: Sir John (celebrity makeup artist & creative director)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the radical transformation of beauty branding, celebrity culture, and the dissolution of "monoculture." Through an in-depth conversation with Sir John—a celebrated makeup artist most known for his collaborations with Beyoncé, MAC, L’Oréal Paris, and others—the hosts examine how the industry has shifted from a unified cultural mainstream to a fragmented landscape where authenticity and creative storytelling drive influence. Key themes include personal evolution within creative careers, the politics of beauty, the rise (and pitfalls) of celebrity beauty brands, and the loss of cultural “event moments” in the digital age.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Death of Monoculture and Changes in Media Consumption

• Loss of Cultural Event “Moments”:

  • Red carpet events and magazine releases once united audiences; today, their influence has waned ([00:00]-[00:47], [29:42]-[34:18]).
  • The Met Gala remains a rare exception that unites people in anticipation ([00:14], [32:16]).

• Shift in Content Consumption:

  • People used to host watch parties for events (e.g., Victoria’s Secret Fashion Show), but now wait for online buzz to decide what’s worth viewing ([00:28], [31:56]).
  • “There was monoculture before… Now there’s 48 million pieces of content posted a day. There’s no monoculture.” – Camille [30:05]

• Fragmentation of Celebrity Influence:

  • Celebrities are now competing with influencers who invite fans into their daily lives, creating parasocial relationships ([33:31]-[35:03]).
  • “It’s about the move to stream… like, these stars, they were nice to look at in a magazine; you didn’t see all hours of the day.” – Camille [34:42]

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Sir John’s Journey Through Beauty

• Background and Evolution:

  • Started in art history and transitioned by happenstance into makeup after doing a friend's shoot ([01:11]-[03:01]).
  • Received support from unexpected places (dancers at the strip club where he freelanced raised money for his trip to Milan) ([03:56]-[04:35]).
  • Worked with legends like Pat McGrath and Charlotte Tilbury, learning the value of humility, artistry, and persistent self-advocacy ([05:07]-[07:13], [09:02]).

• On Breaking Into Celebrity Beauty Circles:

  • Meeting Beyoncé and becoming her artist marked a turning point; emphasizes the importance of “campaigning for yourself” and not losing personal identity in service ([09:02]-[12:00], [13:45]).
  • “Never lose yourself. That can be killed in those rooms… I didn’t lose my own inner royalty.” – Sir John [16:18]

• Artistry and Preparation:

  • Brings an “art history” lens to makeup, creating references and mood boards for projects (e.g., Beyoncé’s Grammy Byzantine look) ([14:47]-[15:32]).
  • “Don’t just go and do a face. Bring in some art. Add something to it.” – Sir John [13:56]

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Lessons from the Beyoncé Era

• Advocacy and Boundaries:

  • Sir John recalls how he refused to work uncredited, setting a new precedent for Beyoncé’s team ([10:21]).
  • “Bet on yourself… you need to know how to advocate for you first before anyone else can.” – Sir John [11:34]
  • “Don’t take no for an answer… Continue to be curious.” – Sir John [18:21]

• Maintaining Self in Service:

  • He stresses serving clients without relinquishing one’s self-worth or creative voice ([16:12]-[18:18]).

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Creative Direction, Brand Voice, and the Politics of Beauty

• Defining the Creative Director Role:

  • At L’Oréal, Sir John influenced product shades, campaign messaging, and championed diversity ([19:56]-[23:01]).
  • The importance of having “someone in the room” to challenge bias and advocate for inclusion, particularly for Black models and broader shade ranges ([20:27]-[21:44]).
  • “The shade range isn’t reflective of the multiculty world we live in... Don’t be lazy in product development.” – Sir John [20:59]

• World Building in Beauty:

  • Differentiates point-of-view between brands (e.g., Charlotte Tilbury’s “blonde bombshell” vs. Pat McGrath’s bold artistry); world-building is essential in a non-essential industry ([39:50]-[41:01]).
  • “Everybody wants [beauty], but nobody needs it. So you have to align the want with their worldview.” – Camille [40:13]

• Emotion and Politics:

  • Beauty is deeply emotional and inherently political—driven by how it makes people feel, its inclusive (or exclusive) history, and its role in societal trends ([39:08]-[39:50]).

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The New Dynamics of Beauty Brands & Influencer Culture

• Rise and Pitfalls of Celebrity Brands:

  • Importance of founder visibility and authenticity; sales and community-building now require vulnerability and real connection ([36:55]-[38:23]).
  • The “drop culture” model creates scarcity and desirability in an oversaturated market ([44:30]-[44:59]).
  • “Virality without velocity” can sink a brand—if hype can’t be met with product, opportunity is lost ([42:50]-[43:21]).

• Authenticity as Differentiator:

  • Influence and desirability depend on the congruence between a celebrity’s persona and their products (e.g., why JLo Beauty or other brands may struggle) ([46:53]), and why Hailey Bieber’s Rhode worked.
  • “The public has to fuck with you.” – Sir John [48:01]

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Guidance for Creatives Amid Industry Change

• Encouragement for New Artists:

  • Sir John emphasizes the importance of transparency, sharing career struggles, and providing creative guidance to the next generation ([27:27]-[28:59], [57:45]).
  • “Creative careers are unorthodox—sometimes you’re walking through the wilderness… you need someone to help weather the storm.” – Sir John [27:33]

• On Creating Lasting Impact:

  • MAC Cosmetics’ history of inclusivity, the loss and potential resurgence of editorial glam, and the cyclical nature of style trends ([58:17]-[60:27]).
  • “MAC was the first to put their money where their mouth was when it comes to diversity.” – Sir John [58:02]

• Beauty as Emotional and Social Statement:

  • “Beauty is a feeling. It’s not something you can see.” – Sir John [57:07]

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Memorable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• “[Monoculture is gone.] There’s no monoculture.” – Camille [30:05]
• “Bet on yourself, man. Bet on yourself all the time.” – Sir John [11:34]
• “Never lose yourself… I didn’t lose my inner royalty.” – Sir John [16:18]
• “The world-building is everything… nobody needs beauty, but everybody wants it.” – Camille [41:01]
• “The public has to fuck with you.” – Sir John [48:01]
• “Beauty is a feeling. It’s not something you can see.” – Sir John [57:07]
• “MAC was the first to put their money where their mouth was when it comes to diversity.” – Sir John [58:02]

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Notable Sections by Timestamp

• Sir John’s Path to Beauty: [01:13]-[07:13]
• Working with Beyoncé: [09:02]-[18:18]
• Creative Director at L’Oréal / Diversity in Beauty: [19:54]-[21:44], [23:01]-[23:55]
• Building Brands in the Era of Fragmented Media: [29:42]-[34:18], [36:55]-[41:01]
• Brand Authenticity and Drop Culture: [42:50]-[44:59]
• Mentorship & the Artist’s Role Today: [27:27]-[28:59], [57:45]-[58:59]

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The Takeaway

The episode illustrates how beauty branding—once governed by a handful of gatekeepers and singular cultural “moments”—has fragmented into a multidimensional, highly competitive field. Success now requires authentic world-building, emotional storytelling, and inclusive values. Sir John’s personal evolution exemplifies how reinvention, humility, and courage are essential to creative longevity. As monoculture fades, the brands (and artists) that thrive will be those who can evoke emotion, champion diversity, and navigate the mosaic of today’s ever-evolving culture.

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End of Summary.

Transcript

[A]

When you work on a project as big as lemonade or. Or, like, a Super bowl performance, and they become time capsules, I'm looking at, like, celebrity makeup artists, hairstylists, stylists. But even red carpet culture has slightly waned.

[B]

Major.

[A]

The only thing I can compare that has the same amount of gravitas that we still are lured into would be, like, the Met Gala.

[B]

I now wait till it's been aired to decide if it's worth watching. Like, I. We. We had watch parties.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right. Like, you watched it then or you missed it now. It's like I wait for the buzz on the Internet to be like, should I watch that tomorrow as a replay on YouTube.

[A]

That was the form of media that we waited. Magazines, like, ruled the world. It would come out, and you would feel like, oh, man. But when. But there's nothing coming out that we feel like that anymore.

[B]

The buzz.

[A]

Yeah. And like, what is that? Is it just me?

[B]

What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand say it again now. What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand who the hell are you?

[A]

Wow. Who the hell am I today? You know, there's many different versions of. We all have of self, but that's,

[B]

like, the coolest part of the story.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

It's how much you've evolved.

[A]

Wow. Like, you know what? Hopefully, if I stop. I don't want to stop evolving because I'll be. I'll be dead. I hope we continue to grow. But no, man, I've had a really colorful life. So when you say, who am I? I'm a son. I'm a big brother to three of three, and I work in beauty. So I've been in this business for so long, I would say I kind of grew up in the business, but I'm a true artist and, like, storyteller.

[B]

Like, right out of school, you got into beauty.

[A]

So not right out of school. So that it was kind of like a really wonky path. What happened was I went to school for art history since I was six years old.

[B]

Since six.

[A]

Since six years old, yeah. Wow. You're like a prodigy. My mom sent me to, you know, she sent me to a performing arts school to audition. I got in, and so basically, art kind of rules my. Ruled my life for such a long time. And then I went to university for art history. Dropped out after, like, a year because it was just too expensive. And I was a friend of mine, she was a model for a catalog shoot, and so she asked me could I do her makeup because the photographer. I'm sorry. The makeup artist canceled, and I didn't know it was a job. I had no idea I could even earn a living doing it. So did it. The photographer loved it. He told somebody at Mac Cosmetics about me. They couldn't hire me until I turned 18. At the time, that's how young I was. And so that was my first job. Shout out to Mac Cosmetics. They've been Canadian. Canadian. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So I've been in beauty for such a long time. I got fired at 23 for being late, you know, and what's changed? But I. So I kind of left makeup alone so few times, and it just kept coming back for me. So I left makeup alone during that space. I started to do the windows at B Doman and Gucci.

[B]

At 23.

[A]

At 23 years old, freelancing. And that was kind of my beat for a while until I saw a friend of mine. His name is Yadim Carranza. Shout out to Yadim. And so Yadim is this amazing, amazing makeup artist. But he, at the time, he was Pat McGrath's first assistant, you know, and so he's like, hey, Sir John, come to the shows. Do the tents with me. So this is when Father Fashion Week was at Bryant Park. So I went. I was like, man, I'm not really doing make it. He's like, come, you're. Come, you're doing it. So I went and with my kit. And then I met Pat. She asked me, was I going to be in Milan two weeks later for Italian shows. I guess she liked the. The hand that I had in terms of artistry. And I was like, yeah, sure, I'm going to be there. Meanwhile, I had no passport, no way to get there. And also I was like, I had so many bills. Mind you, I'm doing. I'm freelancing as a merchandiser, but I'm moonlighting at nighttime. I'm doing makeup in a strip club in Queens.

[B]

Oh, my God. Amazing. How many stories do you have?

[A]

I mean, it's been colorful. So I went back to the club that night, and I was talking to the girls, telling them about this, you know, cool opportunity I had. And they were like, you're going? I'm like, well, guys, it's cool, but I just have so much to do at Brills. I can't really go right now to Italy. And they're like, okay. The next day, I come back to the club, they put together a jar of $2,200 for me of fives and ones and tens and twerked me all the way to Italy. That trip kind of changed my life in a sense, because on that trip, basically started becoming an editorial makeup artist assistant for Pat. I met Naomi Campbell. She was my first client.

[B]

I remember that Lucas as her first client.

[A]

And I was terrified to go in her room. But I idolize her so, so, so much in high school because to see that much diversity, you know, opening closing shows and advertising, all that and the power she had, it still has in such a major way. So.

[B]

And she's a special woman.

[A]

Oh, she's special. She's special. She's. She's. She's very special.

[B]

Dr. That is true.

[A]

You're right about that. Yeah, you're right about that. So came back to the States, and I started working with Charlotte Tilbury, who is, like, literally, like, a godmom to me. I fucking love.

[B]

She's like, talk about special. Like, literally, like, you have at like. Like, Most. Like Pat McGrath. All hail Naomi Campbell. All hail Charlotte Tilbury. All hail. And then we're gonna keep going, but keep going.

[A]

You know what, though? What's funny about Charlotte is that Charlotte was. You know, at the time, the business was completely different. This is before Instagram. This is. Twitter was just a thing. And. And so we had. You know, I loved being an assistant because I was under so many greats. You know, we were on set with Steven Meisel or Mario Testino, you know, Annie Leibowitz. And so, like, what we were learning was a way to really elevate the artistry or elevate, you know, editorialized beauty in some way. And so. And having an artful lens, you know, coming from school, art school, it also really helped me. But I was humble. I was. I was carrying luggage. You know, I just wanted to be in the room. And one thing I actually always talk to younger creatives about is just get in. You know, get in there. Don't have. You don't have to be a famous person right now. Just do the work. Do the work, be great with what you do, and then all that other kind of stuff that will come. But sometimes I feel like the priorities are a little ajar, if you will, right now, you know, so.

[B]

But they don't want to do the work. They don't see the. They don't see the vision.

[A]

The vision, you know, like. And then. But I'm in a really cool group of, like, you know, makeup artists or hairstylist stylists who are, like, the Last of the Mohicans. So it's kind of like we were the last, you know, studio era, if that makes any sense. Totally glam myself. Mario hung, Van Gogh, you know, just all of us. We are. And also we're super cool. We're all really tight, you know, which I love. Even though sometimes the Internet, back in the day when we first got Instagram, always wanted to put everyone against everyone, you know, just insert. But. But we never had that sense of competition at all. We were also really, really supportive of each other in terms of, like, the contracts or, you know, understanding what we're signing and understanding, like, the nature of the business. So. Because I've been under contract for. For a very, very long time, you know. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So good. So you work for Charlotte Tilbury after, like, by the way, like, was Pat McGrath then, like, what she is now? Like, what was that brand like then?

[A]

So Pat at the time, I mean, well, she's the queen of, you know, makeup. And so she ruled all editorial ruled, editorial ruled. You know, all the shows. We would actually travel with suitcases of books to just lay them all out once you come backstage or lay them all out so a client can see the references that we were creating. It was really amazing.

[B]

Think about, like, pre Internet, like. Like, literally the books you'd have to

[A]

lug around and the Internet existed, which is crazy. Which is crazy. So. But it was the. It's the theater of showing the client, you know, the gravitas of all of the things in the findings that we're trying to do to create something unique for them for a show or whatever.

[B]

How long? Like, what was the prep like, for knowing what pages to lay out and for.

[A]

It would just come in, lay out books, just whatever you feel like. Just maybe they can. We'll find something or reference or something. A Polaroid or something. That was cool. It was a little too. But to be. I'm gonna keep it honest with you. I'll say this. I don't talk about it too much. It was too much competition that was violent on her team at the time for me. And so when I say violent, they were willing to hurt each other for her attention. And so. And I wasn't. I'm living. I'm. I'm living in Harlem. I don't play shit like that. So, like. Cause if you play with me, we. We playing for real, you know, So I. I didn't love that atmosphere. And also, I didn't. I didn't think it was really cool for anyone to entertain that from the top, you know, and so that's why? Charlotte was, like, a really good space for me. Charlotte introduced me to Beyonce in 2010 at Tom Ford's first womenswear show, actually, in New York. And so. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And you guys clicked.

[A]

And we clicked. We clicked. I remember seeing her. I didn't know I was going to do her. She gave me a list of Julianne Moore, Daphne Guinness, Charlotte and Beyonce. And I'm like, who? Who is who? Because I just knew it wasn't the singer. I was obsessed. Like, this is the B Day era. Obsessed, right?

[B]

You saw Beyonce on the list, and you're like, this can't be Beyonce. Like, there's another Beyonce.

[A]

No, it had to be. I just was like, this is not. No, this is. You're tricking me. Right? But it was. And we. She was. We were 28 at the time. Both of us. We're the same age. Well, I always like to remind people she's, like, seven months older than I am. But, you know, I remember that she had a really. I've always given a lot of props to the people who came before me in terms of inspiration. She had a really amazing makeup artist. I never thought I would see her again. Her name is Francesca Tullo. So Francesca Tullo is someone who did all of Cher's things, Diana Ross's album covers, Elizabeth Taylor's Diamonds fragrance ads. So you're walking behind an artist that is, like, that iconic. You're like, what can I do here that is even relevant? You know? But I remember getting a call to come to their offices, and when I went to the offices, all my work was, like, all over the tables, you know, in conference rooms, like, in the work of, like, Karlie Kloss, you know, Joan. I mean, at the time, it was Jordan, Don, Naomi. And so I was like, what is going on here? And so they were like, you know, we want you to go on tour. And so I. They gave me, like, this huge, huge book of, like, oh, how do you say? Like, a contract to look at. And I was looking through some of it, and she. They told me in that meeting that I wasn't allowed to say I worked with her. Or, you know, it was. I had to be so private at the time. And I was like, well, wait a minute. I can't even take credit for something when it comes out. This isn't for me. I walked away. I walked out, and I felt so stupid. I felt so dumb. Like, I was like, oh, fuck, did I really just screw something up? But I just knew I couldn't. It was not the time for me to go underground, it would be suicide for my career at the time. So they called me back and told me that no one has done that on this team. And so you will be the first person, but you have to get everything approved and this and that, and then so happens to start that whole relationship and world tours and Super Bowls and all that kind of stuff.

[B]

Wow. So it's kind of a lesson, right? Like.

[A]

Well, the lesson is, like, bet on yourself, man. Bet on yourself. Like, bet on yourself all the time. You have to bet on you or know how to campaign for yourself. I think I always talk to people who are, you know, any business, and you don't have to campaign for yourself in an aggressive way, but you do need to know how to advocate for you first before you can, before anyone else can, before an agent can, before a lawyer. You have to know what you need and what you represent.

[B]

It's a good lesson because you can. You can get starstruck by the stars, you know, and, you know, had you not listened to your gut when there were so many signals there to kind of tell you otherwise, like, you've. You've. What's cool about this episode is you've continued to reinvent yourself.

[A]

Damn. Okay. Thank you for that.

[B]

How would you describe, you know, that period, the Beyonce period? What does your art look like during that time?

[A]

Wow. Oh, that's.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

That's an amazing question. What does my art look like at the time? That's a beautiful question, because it really touched me in my. In my. Like, right here in the chest. I would say that my. What was really. What she was possibly fond of was the fact that I would take, like, glam makeup that we needed to do for concerts or whatever. The diversity of doing something for a show which is in a stadium, you know, a Super bowl, an editorial cover of a magazine, or it could be, you know, shit, a red carpet. Those are vastly different spaces that I believe, or I can own it and say that I was able to bring an editorial quality to her that was heightened or artful. You know, it wasn't heavy. It wasn't. I wanted to. I always wanted her to look as elevated as possible. So I think that that would be what my artistry looked like at the time. But I love glamour. Like, I love. Everyone kind of. Everyone talks about. I was known for the no makeup, makeup, because I do love skin so much, and. But I do love the fun that I used to be able to have or pull off with her when we were on tour, like, in South America or this country, that country. I used to just go for it. And she let me, you know.

[B]

Yeah, like, what was that? What does that relationship look like? Like, is it when you're going into an event or an activation, how much planning are you doing? How much? Like, what does that look like?

[A]

Okay, so I. It's different for different people. So for me coming out of the. Out of the space. Sorry. For me coming out of the space of, you know, under Pat and Charlotte, I always thought about, I need to bring references. So that's not something anyone else on the team was doing. So I would make decks, I would bring in references boards. And so I always wanted to have like something, some. Something to add to this project. Like, so, for example, if you get a treatment for, you know, a Super bowl or a video shoot or lemonade even, I was like, okay, I'm sitting there, I'm looking at it all. I'm kind of digesting what the scene is or what's happening or what they want to communicate. And then I'm not going to just go and just do a face. No, I want to bring in some art. I want to actually add something to it. And so I know for sure she really appreciated that.

[B]

That also kind of ties to your art history background. Right. Like, because you, you were, you were actually adding to absolutely the piece of, like, how that longevity is going to be in the market.

[A]

Like, for example. I'll give you example. When we were doing. She was pregnant with the twins and we were doing the Grammys. And so Peter Dundas, who was the head designer at Cavalli for a while. Peter Dundas had this beautiful gold and she had this gilded sort of head.

[B]

Oh, my God. That was the most iconic.

[A]

And so everyone, we was, you know, wondering, okay, where was that performance? It was. We did that in. Damn. I want to say that was in. Was it in la at the Staples. I believe that was the Staples Center. Yeah.

[B]

Was it the Grammys or was one. It was.

[A]

It was the Grammys. It was the Grammys. Yes, you're absolutely right.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay, okay.

[A]

And so immediately I knew if this was the Byzantine era. So, like this was a thousand year era around Christ that, you know, was this whole gilded moment. So it wasn't like her trying to reference Queen Mary or Jesus's mom. This is something that she actually was pulling from a period of time. And so that is what you can bring forth when you research, when you have something to add to a conversation. I always feel like you should have something to Add to a conversation instead of just going to work with your hands, you know? Yeah.

[B]

What is a. Like from that period, what is a lesson or a story.

[A]

Oh, man.

[B]

That, like, really has changed your life during the Beyonce era. Before we move on to the rest

[A]

of this story, during the Beyonce era, what has changed my life or, like, a lesson?

[B]

Like something that.

[A]

Yeah. You know, and no matter. And I'm going to say this. And this is. I can say this. Never lose yourself. You can't lose yourself. I. Even though I'm in these spaces, even though I like, you know, working with talent, working with celebrity, I knew I'm a servant for sure. You know, you go. Because, you know, whatever you do, you're there to serve the people, serve your client. But I never lost my own sense of self. I never. I know how to minimize myself, to be humble, but I wasn't. I'm trying to find the politically correct way to say this. I didn't. I didn't lose my. My own inner royalty, if that makes any sense. And so. And because that can be killed within those rooms, that can actually be, you know, stumped out because it actually is easier for you to be a servant and just do whatever someone says. But I was like, okay, I don't really believe that I should not push back here. So I pushed back, or I would ask questions, or I would actually not agree at times politely. And so that actually was really respected in that space. She respected it. And so I always kind of stood up and. And continue to be the person who my mom raised in that space. So I never. That's one thing I just want to say, because a lot of people do lose themselves. They lose themselves and they actually become a lot smaller. And so sometimes I realized I. What I need to do is actually possibly continue not to separate myself, but I don't want to dim my light just to go into this room. I don't want to dim myself to be around certain friends. And so that's. And it's not loud. It's really, really quiet. That comfort that. That kind of confidence that you're growing into, it's never loud. It should be. Never boastful. But it. But you have to be strong in it or. Or you'll be broken.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I feel like that's also really is her brand. But it might. You know, but when you have so much power, that's a. And it's an interesting dynamic that you brought to the table, because she probably has a lot of people that just, like, acquiesce around her?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

What is the lesson you learned from her?

[A]

Don't take no for an answer. Don't take. Don't take no for an answer.

[B]

I feel like you were like hearing it in your head when you don't take no.

[A]

But in the way where that's. Just continue to be curious. Continue to be curious. If you have a vision, if you, if you have an idea, it can be realized. And if you're getting a no, it's. It's not necessarily. It's possibly just a jump off point to figure out, okay, how do I actually. What do I need to do to get a yes? Maybe it's just not working with this person. Maybe it's going in another direction. Maybe I need to actually look at the way I'm pitching something and go back to the drawing board to reformulate the ask, you know, but whatever you really, truly need and want, get it. But when I say no means no to men for sure. When girls say no, it means no. But in any other thing, I never felt like it really applied to me.

[B]

That's cool.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So then you do that for a decade.

[A]

Well, from, for more than a decade. Like, even like if she calls me right now to do something, I'll do it, you know. But I would say I started to. I started to need to do more, which was kind of confusing, I guess, to a lot of people because it seemed like, okay, why don't you just be happy where you are with this? But I'm like, I need to do more shit, you know, so. L' Oreal Paris. I became the creative director for L' Oreal for, I want to say, like 11 years. I loved L' Oreal Paris. And so I had so many great times. I walked in their show every year in Paris. Yeah. Yeah. I was a model once a year.

[B]

Baby, let's do it. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. That was fun.

[B]

Try your lean, babe.

[A]

It was so fun and model energy. You know what else was really amazing? And I started to find my voice. I started to find my voice in that space because I was in a spot where at the top of this, you know, food chain area. And if I see something, I'm going to say something. So I found out how ways to make sure that diversity was brought to the forefront or we need to make sure that everyone feels like they're on our radar from inception, you know, from product development, in the way that we're talking to them comms.

[B]

This is brilliant.

[A]

I've like, for. I'll give you an example. We were shooting Something. And before we get to the shooting, the day before, were talking about the models that are gonna come. And so one of the models, it was a black model, and they were like, well, you know, you see her hair. And, you know, Sir John, she doesn't. The way that they were describing her before she even came to set, she was a problem. Like, it was a. She was a problem and not necessarily someone, which is an opportunity to create something beautiful.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

And it was in stark contrast to how they were on the same zoom, talking about her white counterparts. And so what. What happens is when you go to work, she doesn't know she's going to work. You know, wanting to have a great day, wanting to do a great job, and there's already a preconceived energy or hesitation for someone, and that. And that spills into her day. And so. And she doesn't, you know, unbeknownst to her, she has no idea. But those are the kind of things behind the scenes that someone needs to be in the room. Someone needs to be in the room to say, actually, this is. You know, the shade range or the shade extension isn't reflective of a multiculty world that we live in. You know, the global complexion continues to change. We need to be not lazy in product development. So those were ways that I continued to just use my voice and advocate for, really, everyone.

[B]

Cool.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you are l' Oreal Paris. And what is. So you move from kind of a makeup artist to a creative director. What does that mean? Like, how does. What does that role look like?

[A]

So it's different for different companies. But I would say with l', Oreal, it was. I was kind of informing product development, which was fun. Like, shades of foundation, shades of concealer, where the palettes, what we were choosing for the year, also what models that we were using. So basically, they were just using me almost as an editorial makeup artist, but the voice whisperer for everyone in corporate. And then I met what was cool about that. I got a chance to meet all of the editors, so all of the journalists. And so even though I'm cool with a lot of influencers, shout out to influencers, but I love and I feel so blessed that I grew up with a really amazing generation of badass journalists. Women, you know, beauty editors at Hearst, Kanye, Nas, you know, Time Inc. And so. And then they're still friends, my friends today. And so they really are the ones who taught me how to sharpen my skills. So the shout out to the journalists, shout out to Kalanda Barfield Sarah Brown from Vogue, all these women, they really campaigned for me in such a major way to continue to refine my voice and. And also to become a better writer even.

[B]

Cool.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then. So did you fall in love with creative directing?

[A]

I do, I have. And so you know what, it's creative direction is basically having the idea or having a vision of what can make a brand either cooler, more contemporary, either more modern, bringing something from the past and reshopping it or reshaping it so it happens to look nouveau or new. And then also having, hopefully you're diplomatic or have enough diplomacy to move the needle when it comes to the people who are as creative, who have the serious jobs like marketing.

[B]

The dream Killers.

[A]

The Dream Killers. Shout out to the Dream Killers guys. Shout out to the dream Killers. Dream killers make the world go around. But now then I start to understand like this full circle dynamic of what everyone has to do to make this work, you know, and so it's more fun when you're on a smaller brand. When you're working on smaller brands, you get a chance to have a lot more fun.

[B]

Like favorite brand you worked on.

[A]

Favorite brand I've ever worked on would be Shout out to Medicube, Metacute. I'm having a great time with right now, but I would say, yeah, that's it. But also I had a really good time when I produced cosmetics. I had a line in South Africa for five or six years.

[B]

Cool.

[A]

And I had a fucking really great time with it. It was fun. But I haven't wanted to. We talked about this before. I haven't really wanted to produce color for myself. I've licensed my name out. Like I've done stuff for Disney, Lion King Barbie, but I never wanted to do color only. So I want to go into something else, which we've talked about because I feel like it's more evergreen, you know, it makes me feel a bit more alive. And it's not as transactional as a lipstick.

[B]

Well, I feel like it's. I'm in la. I feel like we can't swing a dead cat without like a celebrity makeup

[A]

line or like listen, listen. And it's. I don't. But I don't want. I'm not knocking anyone who has them because I know so many founders. I know so many founders. Shout out to the founders we know

[B]

that are crushing it. That are crushing it.

[A]

But it's. Yeah. And so I think everyone sees me and wonders why I don't immediately go in that direction. But I've had a really, I'm having a really great run. And I think I've also really loved the fact that I've been blessed enough to continue to evolve into different versions of what a makeup artist can look like. And so I've seen so many makeup artists like masterclass.com, you know, or, you know, having licensing deals. I've had a television show in Lifetime with. With Ashley Graham, and actually, the first season was, what, Adriana Lima.

[B]

Cool.

[A]

So it's just. It's fun. It's just fun to continue to ask the universe, as we've been talking about, how can I show up next? Like, what do I want to do? What do I want out of this experience? You know? So. Yeah.

[B]

How was shooting your masterclass?

[A]

Masterclass.com was amazing. Well, first of all, shout out to the producers. So they taught me so much. You can do anything or any. You can be anyone, and they're going to get a curriculum out of you and make you better educator, cool, anyone. And so I. So I. How vigorous was, wasn't. It wasn't too bad. They just were really. They. They were really specific in what the audience needs. And so they were. It was almost like having a really great producer. They were producers.

[B]

Yeah, they're producers. Yeah.

[A]

But it was almost like having a vocal coach and sense they were like. Because they were so curious. And then we would go back to figure out, and now. Oh, now I get this flow of it. And so I'm really proud of that. That was fun.

[B]

Had you taught before that?

[A]

I've done masterclasses all around the world, like Amsterdam, Reykjavik, South America. I haven't been to Russia, but I think every other place I've been, China, you know.

[B]

So what was the most interesting to

[A]

teach Paris was a Paris with a translator. And I brought my dermatologist with me, Dr. Dendi, who I love, who's my

[B]

sister, like, actually your dermatologist.

[A]

Yeah, but she's my friend. Yeah, but I wanted her because I love skin so much, and I wanted us to do some, like, tour together. And so we went during fashion Week, and we had a beautiful class, and I made people cry. The thing is. And also, I don't know, it's. Ever since I've been doing master classes, people come to not just hear me talk about makeup. They. These creatives come to hear me talk about, like, life and how to stay fortified in your space, in your soul, so you don't lose it, you know? So I'm there talking about or doing makeup, but I'm not really talking about Makeup so much.

[B]

What are those lessons? What evokes the emotion in those rooms?

[A]

What evokes the emotion? I believe that they see themselves in me. And so what? And I'm very transparent, you know, and so it's like. It's almost like church. We have church, you know, basically, how do you where all of these people who are creatives, they're walking through the wilderness. You know, they're looking for something they can't always understand how to activate. It's almost like looking for WI fi. You know, it's there, but you don't always know how to access it. When you have a creative career and, you know, it's really difficult at times to stay, to stay on track emotionally, mentally. You know, sometimes I used to have depression in my 20s or anxiety a bit because I wanted to make it. I wanted to do the thing, do what I had to do, but there was no way or plan, you know, when it's because. Because it's so organic. So I have friends who are doctors or lawyers or teachers, and they've all had a very linear road to success and what it looks like. But when you're creative, it is so unorthodox. So I think that when you have someone who can speak to that and help you weather the storm together, it possibly may be like a guiding light for them.

[B]

Well, I think it's just so easy to think that, you know, if you only know, had a chance to work with a Pat McGrath or Charlotte Tilbury and then to say a name like a Beyonce, you know, you think that everything is. Is going to be okay, everything is good. And then to hear someone that at the highest level talks about struggle and uncertainty like it's. It makes them feel like they're not alone.

[A]

Yeah, that's true. That's true. And they're not. And they're not, you know, and you're

[B]

not speaking down to them.

[A]

No, no, no.

[B]

Speaking with them.

[A]

No. And also you gotta. They have to have courage. When you work on a project as big as lemonade or, or like a Super bowl performance, it just kind of. You add something into the zeitgeist creatively that people are consuming. I was having a conversation the other day with a friend and I noticed that the world is changing. Well, in so many ways. In so many different ways it's changing. But I remember when we used to do cover stories and, you know, it would come out and you would feel like, oh, man. But when. But there's nothing coming out that we feel like that anymore. The buzz yeah, like, what is that? Is it just me?

[B]

No, not at all. You're totally not wrong.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's because, like, we. There was monoculture before, right? So before, when September Vogue came out, right? Like, or when lemonade came out, like, everybody had to listen to it. Everybody had to watch it, Everyone had to talk about it. Now it's like there's 48 million pieces of content that's posted a day. There's no monoculture.

[A]

Is that it? Is that it?

[B]

There's no monocult. Wow.

[A]

Wow. That makes me a little sad, though. Slightly.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Slightly.

[B]

It makes me sad too. And there was a headline that came out the other day is like, you know, is Marty supreme the closest thing that we've had to monoculture this year? Because, like, my algorithm can feel like, you know, Hailey Bieber's at the center point of my world, but she might not even come on your feed at all. Right? And I text my mom today that we're at Aloe headquarters. She's like, where? What? You know, and that's. That never used to be the case.

[A]

That's so true. That's so true. I just. Okay. I just heard about Marty supreme yesterday for the first time.

[B]

Honestly, it's been like, literally the only thing relevant on my algorithm for the last like three and a half weeks because Kylie and Timothy are just wearing orange everywhere. But you're a bit older, right? That's not.

[A]

That's not.

[B]

That's not a part of your zeitgeist. Like, that's where it's. When you talk about these moments and it's all people had to do to consume culture.

[A]

That's so true. That is so true. Oh, man. That was the form of media that we waited. We would. Magazines, like, ruled the world at one point, literally.

[B]

That's why when you say the Last of the Mohicans, that was a bang on analogy even.

[A]

I'm wondering. I'm curious here. I'm looking at celebrity makeup artists, hairstylists, stylists. But even red carpet culture has slightly waned.

[B]

Major. Because we don't, like, TV isn't the medium anymore. Right. That's like, think about, like, that's what it is. It's all been broken down. Like, there's why, like, think about. We were talking about this on the podcast a few weeks ago. Like, I'm. I now wait till it's been aired to decide if it's worth watching, like the Victoria's Secret Passion Show. I didn't like. I. We. We had watch parties.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like, you watched it then or you missed it now. It's like, I wait for the buzz on the Internet to be like, should I watch that tomorrow as a replay on YouTube?

[A]

Damn, that's so true.

[B]

It's just. It's totally changed. And you used to be at the center point of, like, being there, seeing it then, waiting for the reaction, and now it's just like.

[A]

Only thing I can compare that has the same amount of gravitas that we still are lured into would be like, the Met Gala.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, we. That's the only thing.

[B]

But the Met Gala, they've done so much to stay relevant. You know, what's interesting about what you're saying is I think there's going to be a pendulum. I know there's going to be a pendulum swing back to experience. Because designer goods that the scarcity has been completely blown up. Yeah, right. Like, anyone can get knockoff anything. You know, like, the commodity of having the Louis Vuitton bag is no longer special. Being at the Met Gala, it's being at the Super Bowl. Right.

[A]

Or Paris Fashion Week.

[B]

Or, like, the experience is now what's the true luxury? Because you keep. There is officially a cap. So I do believe that it's gonna move back. I think the problem is, like, this year you talk about something like the Oscars. Like, I just. I don't think it's that interesting right now. So I can. But you know what I mean.

[A]

I do, I do, I do. No, you're right. You're right, man. Damn. I've never thought about the fact that red carpets matter so much because we did watch television so much more. Now I just have.

[B]

Also, celebrity mattered so much more.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, like, because it was the Hearst era of, like, we don't know them. They're beautiful to look at and we've been told to care. Like, but think about it now. Like, who rules world? Alex, Earl, like, these. They're influencers. They're not celebrities because they've. They've. What we like, what we've gained is we now actually know them. Like, I don't actually really know anything about Beyonce.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

You know, like, I respect her. I think she's great. I always use a line that I have the same hours in the day as Beyonce. But, like, she can't, like, think about an Alex. I know that she adopted a dog last week. Like, it's.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

Her name's Asia. You know, like, but that's so true.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

But we like that they've broken that fourth wall and like, they're the most relevant people now because you can, you can tune into their TV show every day, see their whole life.

[A]

Like the Kardashians or whatever.

[B]

The whole life. Like, think about, you know, Campbell Hunt Pocket is. No, well, she's just like George Influencer from Georgia and she chronicles every single day. She does like two to three posts for like. And we've watched like, I know everything. Like, I even know when she's like at the gas station pumping her gas. Like it's like a 24 hour clock. No, but the move to stream is even like another level of extreme. No, she just.

[A]

That's crazy to me though.

[B]

Crazy. But think about like these, these stars, it was just. They were nice to look at in a magazine. Like you didn't see all hours of the day.

[A]

I think I like that though more. I like a little bit of mystery,

[B]

you know, it's also exhausting and.

[A]

It's exhausting. And also you become overexposed so quick, you know, I don't.

[B]

That's why the word parasocial relationship is the word of the year this year.

[A]

Okay. What does that mean to you?

[B]

The. Have you not heard of this?

[A]

I have, I have, but I'm just curious.

[B]

It's this insane. I like where people feel like they know them so much because they post everything.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

They're so obsessed with them that like people come up to these creators, let's call them, and they. Or even stars, like they completely like trauma dump because they're like, they think that they know each other.

[A]

So it becomes like also a shortcut into this almost pseudo familiar, like, yes. Attitude that they have with people. I don't like that. I'm a New Yorker, let me tell you. So you don't say hi, but. And also you can always see when people know you because it's a look that they give you.

[B]

It's the eyebrows, something in the eyes, it releases something. I know, I agree.

[A]

And so, but I like. And so I'm not the best case study when it comes to social. Because I don't, I don't love to post my life a lot. I have a really cool life, but I just don't think about capturing it in a way. And everyone, like my agents and people are like, you have to do that. We want you to do that. And I'm like, okay, well sure, you know, But I don't. It doesn't come natural to me. Also, I grew up in a business where. You didn't. You did not.

[B]

No, you didn't.

[A]

It was. You were anti.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Everything was under embargo even until it came out.

[B]

It's a gift for you to be here.

[A]

So I have a question for you. So, first of all, I think you're brilliant. Okay. I. We know you're brilliant. So what do you. What do you feel. Where do you feel like the business is going in terms of, like, beauty? So not just cosmetics companies or whatever that looks like, but the face of founders. Where do you see that shifting in the next 24 months or so?

[B]

Well, that's the. That's the problem is, like, because it's so competitive and so saturated, you have to give more. Like, you really have to build an authentic community. You have to, like, the. It's so competitive.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it. It's these, like, these brands, like the Barbara Sturms, where you really, like, that's why she's going on tour, right? Like, Barbara Sturm. Yeah.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. Like, she's like. She's on tour, like, shaking hands and kissing babies because she sold her company too, right.

[A]

She still stayed on. She stayed on as a career. Okay.

[B]

That's why they're making her do it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because they need, like, it. The. The problem is, like, founders have to be involved.

[A]

Okay. Yeah.

[B]

And. But not to the level of, you know, being a Campbell Hunt pucket or being like an Alex River. You need to share your life, but you need to share your reason. You have to share your why. You have to, like, why did you do this for Formulation? Who does it fix? Who is it for? What are these stories along the way that contribute an ad? Like, you talk, you know, like, even off camera, we were recording, like, you talking about the concealer you're using. The reason why you use it is because, like, Beyonce, when she'd sweat on stage, it would be. It doesn't. It doesn't emulsify. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, if you tell those stories for the. For the. If you were to launch a makeup line and like, that you have to evoke emotion. You have to build a world. And that's why we talk about these. These. These space. These places and spaces that used to have so much reverence. They were world building. Right. Like, the Oscars was a world that

[A]

you tapped into the red war season.

[B]

Like, it was a. It was a moment in time, and it was any. Everybody could tell you what it meant.

[A]

Like, and Fashion Week was a world.

[B]

It's a world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's. You have to recreate that with brands. Like, we're literally sitting in the Atlo podcast Studio. Why does Alo have a podcast studio? And guys, I should probably be nice. I'm sitting here.

[A]

But it's fly.

[B]

It's fly. But this is world building. Right? Like, when you. Like when you walk into the space, like, aloe feels different to me now.

[A]

Yes. When I walked in, it was like. I'm like, is this. This is a hotel. Literally, it felt like one. So, no, I totally feel you there. But creating emotion. So when you think about emotion, you know, beauty is always so emotional. It's also really political.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Beauty is so political.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's never not been. You know, when I think, I'll give you an example. So the politics of beauty are the way we police women's hair in the 70s, when they first started dyeing their hair, L'. Oreal. The L' Oreal commercials actually were the first times. And even the fact that men shouldn't get any Botox, now, that's politicized. Black women couldn't wear their hair out actually in public. It was a law. So I think that beauty and politics always sort of run parallel together. But emotion, man, when you think about emotion, how do you create emotion? Like, what does that look like in stereo, in your content? Is it something. Is it just storytelling? Do you feel like it's.

[B]

It is storytelling, but it's figuring out what it. Like, how do you want to make that brand feel right? When you think about road versus when you think about Pat McGrath or when you think about Charlotte Tilbury, like, they're very different worlds. The thing with beauty is that everybody wants it, but nobody needs it.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

So you have to. You have to align the want with their worldview. Right? So Charlotte Tilbury totally speaks to my world of this, like, blonde bombshell that is like it to me. To me, the dream is to be a Charlotte Tilbury girl. Right?

[A]

Like, that is my siren.

[B]

That is my world.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Whereas, you know, the Pat McGrath world is one I deeply respect, but it's not my world, you know? Like, I'm not a makeup artist. I'm not into, like, the supersaturated colors. Like, it. It's about the way to win in an industry where you don't need it is to have such a clear point of view and figuring out what that is.

[A]

Okay. You're. You're schooling me right now. I'm even thinking about, like, wellness or that space. It is about. You want to be in that world. You want to create the world for them.

[B]

The perspective, the perspective, and the perspective. That's why when beauty is such a great example of it. Why I geek out in beauty is they so understand the world building because nobody needs it. So branding is at the. Is at the best. Like, the best it can be because you're. You're creating the desire for a purchase that nobody needs. Nobody needs more lipsticks, Nobody needs more blushes. But what is the. What is the payoff? Like, they're making you. By buying it, you're feeling something. You know, Is it confidence? Is it sexiness? Is it empowerment? Like, what is it?

[A]

Yeah, you know what? And you're so right. Is it confidence? Is it sexiness? Is it power? But sultry. And it's also like a. It's like chocolate. It's a little bit of an emotional dopamine hit.

[B]

A major dopamine hit. But the dopamine, like, it doesn't have the dopamine hit if it doesn't have a great brand.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, if you took a road lips, lip gloss and you took the brand off it, someone would like, yeah, I don't know. I don't need another one. But it's a road.

[A]

Yes, yes. You know, yes, yes.

[B]

If I use that. I too, am married to Justin Bieber,

[A]

you know, like, so.

[B]

Which, not gonna lie. It's been a dream for a while, so.

[A]

Well, the way shit is going, I mean, not anymore. Not anymore.

[B]

We've gotten older now, so. Question.

[A]

When you think about. I know that you had. So what happened with Pat's collection? If you would. Did some of the mystique leave.

[B]

No to me. Okay. So I've heard a bunch of different things.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

My assessment of it is that she had varied. She had virality without velocity. So she is so dialed into these moments that became these, like, breakout successes. And she doesn't have the business mindset because she's an artist. She was a creative bottleneck to the scalability of her company. So she does the glass skin with Moulier.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The product doesn't come for a year later, and they only launch 100 SKUs. But one of her assistants, which you probably know, Erin Parsons.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Four days later, recreates the look and she gets the hit. And there was moments that she doesn't have, like. And it's. It's. It's. I feel like it actually really connects with your story because people think if I just could go viral, you know, like, if I. But virality can actually hurt your business.

[A]

Really? Wow.

[B]

Because if you. If you generate demand and you can't satisfy it, people move on.

[A]

They do move on. Or they do move on.

[B]

Especially when it's like, you can't have that kind of a business and be a Sephora partner. You could have that kind of a business if you're doing, like, drops.

[A]

When you say a Sephora partner, meaning, like, you know, as that's your main distribution channel, that would not be good.

[B]

Well, Sephora is purely scale.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's like a part of the, like, the trepidation for where Rhode is going is like, what gave Rhode this halo is that she dropped the product. Once it was dropped, it was available and it sold out in 72 hours. And once it was gone, it was gone. And it says something about you to be a road girl. It says something extra if you're a road girl with the new lemon that came out, you know, two weeks ago. Because you're like, yeah, really? You're really married to Justin Bieber. So the. The what she. Like what she was. When you're with Sephora, you can't miss these moments.

[A]

Right, I see, I see.

[B]

Because you've got a global footprint.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it. And when I say I've heard a bunch of different things, I've heard that she is a creative bottleneck. Like, she is involved in every single decision. And you can't do that in Sephora.

[A]

It's hard to scale. So drop culture, what do you think? Do you do. What's your take on drop culture? I love drop. I love.

[B]

I think it's brilliant.

[A]

I love drop culture.

[B]

I think it's the only way to win in a world that feels so fleeting, like everything is so accessible. And the only way to create scarcity is to make it limited. And that's where it's. Designer things are no longer the scarce things. That's what makes.

[A]

So true, right?

[B]

Like.

[A]

Yeah, no, not at all.

[B]

It. It's not about that. It's about limited access.

[A]

Yeah. Limited access. And do you. Do you think celebrity culture, celebrity drops, you know, and. And skin or makeup, are we going to see that? Is that gonna fade or wane or, like, how do we feel as consumers about celebrity now?

[B]

I think the problem with. With the celebrity front is they're losing their relevance, but they want to continue to make money. And I think that's why we've seen

[A]

a lot cash grabs.

[B]

Yeah. And a lot of celebrities enter into the space because with AI coming in, replacing acting, replacing modeling, how do these names continue to make money? And for a lot of them, if they are connected and all their friends are famous and they, you know, they've got a VC on speed dials. It's easy, easier, you know, to get something into market. And I think that's why we're seeing a lot of them. And it's. I never thought about it, but that's why, you know, Hailey Bieber is an exception to the rule. Like, there's very few. But it comes down to if it's authentic, if it's well done. But, you know, I had a call. I told you this with a very famous model who we will not name.

[A]

Okay, okay. Who, you know, I know, I'm sure.

[B]

And, you know, she's got five plus million followers, has a company, you know, David Beckham, and everyone and their mother at David Beckham's level has posted about this product and they have got no sales, really. And it's like, it's not enough to have followers to make sales. The consumer knows.

[A]

The consumer knows. So is it. Is what's missing is that. Is it missing the. The authentic ability to be. To live it or know so the consumer knows that you use it, or is it what's not working in that formula?

[B]

It's. Well, on one hand, it's the believability of the world they're building. Like, Haley comes across. I only use her as an example because I think she's the ultimate example. She comes across as that, like, ultimate popular girl. You know, the one who's like, may not be the nicest, but you're okay with it because you want her to like you and, you know, like. Yes. But when you think about a lot of these celebrities that launch these products, the Persona they're putting out doesn't seem like there's an incongruence. It doesn't seem to match. And I think a good example of that is JLo. You know, like, I don't think that her brand, world and her person. There's an incongruence. We don't know enough about her. It doesn't seem to match. And so the ones that work are the ones that are prepared to give something of themselves. Like the honest company that worked really well. Like, there's one, you know, like, Jessica. Like, you need to. There needs to be an element of authenticity. But, you know, this too. They're not all nice people.

[A]

Yes, I know.

[B]

And it's not enough to just, you know, have been in 10 movies. Like, you have to be. We can sniff out in fake shit. Yeah, fake shit.

[A]

Yeah. The public has to fuck with you.

[B]

Literally, like, you owe my money.

[A]

I gotta align with you, basically, you know, or want to be the aspirational quality of, like, damn, I want to walk the walk that she walks. You know, even if I don't like her personality, but I do like, it is aligned when, for example, JLo, like, I would want to know her workout or, you know, possibly work out material.

[B]

Seriously, like, her selling protein actually makes the most sense. Yeah, she looks bomb.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I would definitely like whatever she's selling in relation to, like, as long as it's authentic, if it was a good quality product. How do you assess brand with these creative, like, with working with Killian and working with Medicube. Like, how do you work. How do you assess brand with your creative direction?

[A]

So I. The thing I'm thinking about, like, for example, with Killian, which was. Which is owned by Lauder. And so they wanted to.

[B]

It's my favorite perfume, by the way. Smells so good.

[A]

It's so, so good. Angel share. This is so good.

[B]

I love the Princess. What is that one?

[A]

Don't be shy, Princess.

[B]

Don't be shy. Feels speaking to me.

[A]

So with them there are, you know, the heritage is. He's a Hennessy. So heritage is all about, like, the barrels. And so you want to go into. Find out the archive.

[B]

Is he ready?

[A]

Yeah, he's. Yeah. And so you want to go into the archive of who is this brand? Who are these people? Not now, but then and also in the future. Where do we want to be? And so I wanted to create a room. It's basically like creating a room. So we were creating a collection from soup to nuts. Everything from lips to liners to powders, they have this. We're creating. Got stalled by Lauder because they want to focus on their fragrance. They were actually trying to take Tom Ford's space in the market. Tom for cosmetics.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But one. One thing I wanted to do is I want to figure out who is the person so who is the Persona of this woman or this man and create. Can we create some kind of, like, intoxicating room for them to be in? So, like, with Killian, it's super sexy. So we were going for nighttime. Like no cosmetics company. Everyone is like, this, your AM routine. This is your pm. This is what you wear in the morning, all that. Let's just really ruled the night. It's sexy, you know, and so. And that was kind of. I wanted to bring as much sex to the collection as possible. And I think we were really rocking and rolling with it. So that was that for them. L' Oreal Paris was completely different. She's a chic, you know, Heritage brand that actually is like the number one prestige brand in the world. So we always looked at it in a different way. So now when I'm with. I'm in Korea with Medicube.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Shout out to Medicube. It's about how can we make all of the visuals, you know, the ads, the copy on the website, look a bit more multiculty and also possibly not as austere when it comes to the lighting and the background. So it's more or less just giving it a flavor or creating a filter, if I had to say. Long story short, what you're doing as creative director, you're creating a layered filter that is so unique to that brand.

[B]

Oh, that's cool. Have you been to Korea?

[A]

I have, yeah. So it was. It was amazing. I went last, actually, last year. This time I was. I was in Seoul. How is Medicube HQ the cleanest space I've ever seen? It was so clean.

[B]

Oh, like, it's literally insane.

[A]

They do everything in house and you could eat off the floor or the machines. It was, like, state of the art. It was beautiful. One thing. One thing I love about Korea is that everything that they eat is all about the belly. So beauty for the. For the inside, which I love. And that's my thing. Fermented. Everything is fermented. The tea is about digestion, taking care of the skin. So you really do glow or have that glass, like, appearance from the inside out.

[B]

Ah, you know what? That's really interesting because a lot of people say when they leave Korea, like, their skin gets so bad. And that's why it's the food.

[A]

It gets bad after they leave.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

Yeah. That's, like, weird. I mean, that's what I get. I just. What you just told me, it may

[A]

be purging too overloaded or like, you know.

[B]

No, like, I mean, like, permanently, like, they just glow more in Korea. Oh, they're just more glowy.

[A]

Yeah. Also, they have small. I feel like their pores are so much smaller than mine.

[B]

Like, they've got no pores.

[A]

0. 0.

[B]

You can see mine from, like. You can see mine from, like, the moon. They're so big.

[A]

First of all, you can jump in there like a. Your skin is beautiful. Have you guys. Have you seen this woman right here? I'm sitting next to Korea. Yeah. You go to Korea? I go every year. I have a really good dermatologist, though. They're here. Here. I have one in New York and one in LA. Dr. Diamond here. Shout out to Dr. Jason diamond and then also Dr. Oh, he's got a skincare line.

[B]

He's very famous.

[A]

Medicine scent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Super handsome too.

[B]

He's very handsome. So what does he do to your skin?

[A]

He gives me filler in my jaw and then also like the, sometimes the tip of my nose so it has a bit more balance in my profile.

[B]

Cool. Do you any like lasers?

[A]

I. I'm like Mr. Potato Head, baby. Listen, like Nene Leak says, what if it falls? I'm gonna pick it back up.

[B]

Do you do any like lasers or anything?

[A]

I do. Do. I do lasers? I don't do laser. I do laser hair removal. So I don't grow any hair, but I do like refreshers and stuff. I'm like, I also have a contract with Daxify, which is like a, it's a higher end version of Botox and so it's fused with peptides and it basically, it lasts longer. It's. It's amazing.

[B]

Peptides is like literally like the word of the month in LA right now. It's. Do you not know this?

[A]

No. I'm in my, I'm in my house or in my office all the time. I feel like. So I'm out of touch in a way a little bit. But even when we were talking on the phone, you were schooling me to so much game, babe.

[B]

Like, what?

[A]

Even this right here, like your ability to have, from a forensic standpoint, assess a brand where it's, where there's a cheek in the armor or where there's a, you know, something that's not working is kind of like, it's not even, it's, it's not even something that you can learn. As much as this is inherently instinctual, I feel, coming from you. Like, it's. But it's, it's instinct you have, you know, and you can't buy instincts. You can't learn. You can't learn them in a class. You just have to like, have it or you don't. Yeah, babe. Yeah, it's like, it's like artistry, you know, it totally.

[B]

I was, I was gonna say, I feel like you totally skipped the point in your story where you actually like started playing with makeup. Like, when did you be like, I love makeup.

[A]

I wasn't allowed to play with makeup. I was actually not even allowed to play with Barbies. I love my cousin's Barbie dolls and I got in trouble for it by my dad when I was little and then I got a. And then I started working with Barbie when I became an Adult.

[B]

Is that a close for you?

[A]

It is.

[B]

Did you do content on that?

[A]

I did, yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Did you talk about, like, not being able to play with Barbies and then in the Mac?

[A]

Well, in. In interviews. I didn't do it on social media. I should have done it on social.

[B]

Why not?

[A]

That is so true.

[B]

Okay, so you weren't allowed to play with makeup.

[A]

But when I started playing with makeup, it's really just color. So I just. It wasn't paint I was working with or, you know, pastels or chalk anymore. It was just a different medium.

[B]

So when you went to art school, you were in the, like, studio.

[A]

Studio and art.

[B]

So you were drawing.

[A]

I've been painting since and drawing since I had a memory. Yeah.

[B]

So that was. The jump is like, because you got color, because you got how to plant

[A]

a canvas and placement and application process, like, the nuance of how the whole paint brushes and also layering with your fingers and all that.

[B]

Do you think that you were drawn to the arts because you weren't allowed to play with makeup younger?

[A]

Well, I don't necessarily. I didn't know what makeup was when I was younger as much. I knew my mom would put stuff on her eyelashes. That was my idea of what makeup was. But when I actually discovered makeup, I was growing on my own. I was, like, 18. And at that time, I was like, is this a thing? Like, am I gonna do this? And so I did.

[B]

Do you remember the story of when you, like, discovered makeup?

[A]

It was. It was on set for my girlfriend, and she had.

[B]

She literally was like, will you do my makeup?

[A]

Yeah. And I'm. And I had no idea of how to do makeup at all. Like, never in my life had I done anything like this before. And so I just started picking up her concealers.

[B]

You're like, sure. And then, like, months later, you're at Pat McGrath.

[A]

Eight months later, I was working for Mac.

[B]

Huh?

[A]

Yeah, I was working for Mac, and. And they. I was opening the Soho store, and so. And then I started working for Pat when I was 23 after getting fired by Mac.

[B]

But, like, so you go to Mac and you're just like, I can do this. You're like, no problem. I can do this.

[A]

Oh, no. So that first Mac was like, oh, yeah. Oh, babe. Now. Well, I don't want to tell that story to you yet, but. Because I have a surprise for you later. But I was going to tell you that after that day, I started doing it all the time. So I was like. I was obsessed with, like, actually creating, you know, Looks and stuff like that. So I got a bit of practice. I remember getting the job at Mac, and people were like, customers. Well, how long have you been doing makeup? I was like, six months, like, eight months.

[B]

I feel like you had so much confidence. Like, you just. You just like, I love you accept life as it comes.

[A]

I love what this business or what beauty can. It does for everyone's emotional and mental health. So I. I'm obsessed with how it makes people feel. I always say beauty is a feeling. It's not something you can see, but you need to

[B]

focus. You got it. Like, you get how makeup is already a brand.

[A]

Yeah. Damn. Huh? No, man. But I. Yeah, that's. That's basically been my story. And I feel. I feel really. Also. I feel really blessed, and I think I have to. There's a lot of work that we need to do as artists for a younger generation who doesn't. Who don't have the same gateway.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So if we know that the bridge is gone, you know, how can we continue to inspire them to feel hopeful in a way? And this, like, mosaic of so much going on. How do you, as an artist, where do you pull your inspiration from? Or how do you feel like you're gonna even make it nowadays? Should be studied.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, you're so right. On one hand, it's like. It's never been easier in the sense of, like, if you can create content, but it also requires such a special skill set of also wanting to be an extrovert. Like, it's. It is. You know, it's. It's. It's hard also when you're an artist,

[A]

you know, I don't know. And also, you just educated me today. I'd never thought about those platforms or those vehicles for us to show the beauty of what we do. Our waiting, you know, so. And I'm like, oh, that makes a lot of sense now. That makes a lot of sense. So I don't know where we go from here with Mac Cosmetics. It's been a crazy, crazy story from the Rise, you know, and back in the day with Frank And Frank and RuPaul was the first. Did you know that RuPaul was. RuPaul actually used to be the security guard at the Christopher and Gay street location. And so they were and was so popular as a door guy at. Or person, should I say, at the Mac store, that when they were looking to figure out, you know, I think it was John Dempsey and Donald Robertson, who was the executive at the time, they were trying to figure out who's going to be the face of Viva Glam. Who's going to be this? You need someone who's multiculty, who could be, you know, relate to all ages. Fun. They were like Ru. And so that's when RuPaul got the cosmetic. That sort of changed the world in a sense, cosmetics wise and became so gender pushing and inclusive, if you really think about it. Mac Cosmetics, what we're seeing now in the world, you know, is completely the opposite. This is a company that put their money where their mouth was. When it comes to diversity, when it comes to equity, equity around sexuality, around race. They were the first all races, all sexes, all ages. And so. And I just found this out. They've never not been the number one brand in mass, you know, so everyone has a Mac something in their bag. It doesn't matter if you're an old woman or if you're 17 years old.

[B]

Yeah. So that's why I actually thought the Chapel Roan collab was smart, is that it felt more Mac than it has been in a long time.

[A]

It has. They lost it for a while.

[B]

They did well because Clean Girl aesthetic came in right. More that that French makeup look became. Became bigger than this, like editorial glam. But I think it's going to take a pendulum swing back, you know, like now we've done that for the glowy, kind of like baby basic looking skin for a while. And that's where like stars like Chapel Roan, I think are really gonna bring that back.

[A]

And them having. What's her name? Kris Jenner, Martha Stewart now like Pamela Anderson.

[B]

So I saw her today.

[A]

You saw Pam today? No way. She's my birthday twin.

[B]

No way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

July 1st, she was literally thriving next to me. You know what's so cool too, like with the way that she's going about it is it's so refreshing to see people that look so much the same in real life because they're. They. I don't know how to explain it, but I had this experience years ago. I went to a party and Emily Ratajkowski walked up to me and for the first moment I was like. I was like, no. I was like, oh, fuck, I forget their name. I forget. And I thought for sure that I know this person. I'm like, oh, no, what's her name again? What's her name? How do I know her? And then I. And then it clicked and I was like, it's so refreshing to see people to look the way that they do in part. Look.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

And that's what I love what Pam is doing for.

[A]

Do you love it?

[B]

You know, I do love it because I think it's the coolest arc for her legacy and her brand.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

She's Canadian, too.

[A]

I did not know that.

[B]

Yeah, she's Canadian. She was found at a CFL game. Do you disagree with the approach of the no makeup?

[A]

So I like the idea of. I like the idea of showing up in your truest self and owning it. I love that. But I'm old school. I feel like a little concealer sometimes is necessary.

[B]

I think that it's just a little bit.

[A]

Just a little bit.

[B]

I mean, hey, look, I wouldn't do it. You know? Like, it's. But what I do respect for it is there's an entire swath of women that, for her, being this, like, ultimate sex symbol for so long is actually, like, too iconic. It is, you know, like to not be chasing youth anymore, but to be like, that was who I am, and this is who I am now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that, to me, is actually what a lot of women that when they go through menopause and stuff, they feel like they lose themselves is probably a message that doesn't hurt for us to have.

[A]

And, like, you're right.

[B]

God bless her for doing it, because I'm gonna be wearing concealer till the day. I probably have some facelifts too, you know? Yeah, yeah. You know?

[A]

Yeah. No, I did not think about what it signals in terms of empowerment in that way and having.

[B]

Helping women, like, you know, it should exist somewhere because we're all talking about Kris Jenner's facelift, you know? And, like, there are Lindsay Lohanzis, you know? And, like, at least there's an alternative for the women that, like, I'm gonna be stitched till the day I die, you know? But, you know, but for those who

[A]

don't want that, you know, babe, we'll both be quilts.

[B]

We'll be in the bed next to each other.

[A]

We'll be showing up so much.

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[A]

No, I'm pro. I'm pro. You know, Love. I just call it love. But I do respect the message. And you actually. You know what? You're pretty gangster.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

You're pretty gangster. You're a g. I'll tell you. You know why? Because you're a real one with your. The way you assess spaces and people and then also having enough curiosity to reimagine. You are really great at reimagining life.

[B]

I love to be wrong.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I, like, love to have an idea be told and re look at it especially too. We're in the business of we get fed a headline. I have to make an instantaneous. Thoreau and Neela Mahuja don't love it. Whatever. But I have to be able to take the data points, assess and learn and change my opinion. And I want to be wrong.

[A]

Damn, I wish everyone thought like this.

[B]

It would make the world a better place.

[A]

Or at least a bit more reasonable. Yeah, a bit more reasonable.

[B]

Like, listen to all the different sides. Well. So this is going to be a big year for you.

[A]

This is going to be a big year for us.

[B]

True, dad.

[A]

Yeah. So. Because I think there's a move happening soon. I hope there is. I love this woman. I love this woman. Okay, just. I just wanted to say that here first, guys. Okay.

[B]

I adore you. Thank you for making the time for coming in today.

[A]

Thanks for having me, babe. Thanks for having me.

[B]

You're the best.

[A]

Give me hugs.