B (2:03)

Oh, the haters gotta hate, man.

A (2:05)

We're, we're really like kicking up in construction workers throughout middle America, but you need branding. But one of the comments we got was from actually like an og, a fan of the podcast, fan of, fan of our pages he was like, all that you guys are doing is just like shitting on campaigns and branding these days. And I'm like, I re looked at our content last week and we had really only one negative post. We were praising American Eagle and Sydney Sweeney. But what's interesting is I feel like we're trending more towards celebrating brands that do controversy, right? And I don't feel that this Elf campaign is controversy, right? Even though it's done by the exact same agency that did the American Eagle campaign.

B (2:51)

You know, I see a little bit of fingerprints in it because the way they did the American Eagle, the way it was shot was a bit kind of obscure or ridiculous. Like the way she was talking, like it was almost right. So I saw. But then they just took it to a whole another level in this Elf campaign because that, that commercial, if we're going to talk about it, was ridiculous.

A (3:11)

So this week, Elf Cosmetic hires Matt Rife, a TikTok comedian, to be the new face in an ad campaign with a drag queen. And the Internet blew up with anger because E L F represents an inclusive, mass market, bottom of the barrel brand that like rips off beauty brands for seven to nine dollars, four to nine dollars, like the cheapest of the cheapest products. And, and everyone online is saying that because Elf is an inclusive brand, therefore they shouldn't have used a comedian that had a canceled moment for making a joke on his comedic special called OnlyFans. So basically he became famous for like riffing on comedy of like very digital kind of zeitgeist moments. Like his whole skit was called OnlyFans.

B (4:01)

To me, it's telling me there is somebody brilliant behind this marketing agency, even though I don't like the ad. And I'll tell you why there's an absence of clear thinking in the world because everybody is. Their thinking is corrupted. You just said, oh, you can't post that stuff on your stuff or somebody won't like it. I'm like, but what they're getting it, they're getting the actual signal is you want people to talk about your product, right? And so everybody is like, how could you do that? How could you bring him on? He made a joke that I didn't like you if you don't like the joke. Jokes are jokes. He's a comedian and it's time to tell people who don't like jokes to get the fuck off, get out of here. Because that's what jokes are about. But people are trying to control the narrative. What they're doing is they're Breaking the system. Now they're breaking out of it, and they're saying, we're gonna put that guy in there. He told a joke, you know, he got slapped. It doesn't matter. Because what everybody's gonna pay attention to is it's $9, right? That's the beauty of that commercial, Even though I don't think it was executed improperly. But they're doing stuff. What they did with Sidney Sweeney and the jeans, and what they're doing by him, I think is a deliberate campaign to get incredible attention and at their products, and it seems to be working, whoever they're working for.

A (5:06)

Well, you make a great point. And I want to criticize the thinking of the ad only because I find a lot of businesses get caught up in trying to make branding this complicated work of art. An interesting takeaway is anything that you do in branding shouldn't cost the customer calories. So the reason why I dislike the commercial is that there is no connection, naturally, between personal injury, the tacky personal injury commercials, and being the lowest price point beauty product. Like, it's a lot of brain work to go through the entire commercial and leave remembering and desiring an entire range of products.

B (5:46)

This is where I disagree with you a little bit. Because if their product is the cheapest, it's appealing kind of to the masses. And those personal injury lawyer commercials are directed squarely at the masses. They don't really appeal to intellectuals. Right. They're ridiculous, but they work. They're proven to work. Those personal injury billboards.

A (6:05)

But in that category.

B (6:06)

No, I got it. I got it. But when you say it's taking calories, creative has to be entertaining. And what they've tried to do is make something entertaining and something that has a lot of visual cues that make people say, what the heck's going on? What's going on? And it keeps them there because the signal is like, yeah, it's $9. That doesn't take a lot of. That doesn't take a lot of calories to get. But it's not interesting.

A (6:26)

But here's my argument. There's causation, there's correlation. I think that causationally they will get a spike because they properly selected a controversial figure. Right? It's the Howard Stern effect. Because people love him and because people hate him. The moment that they see him, they're still watching. They've got an opinion, they want to talk about it. So people are talking about Elf because of Matt Rife, the commercial that they shot. Talent aside, you have to wait until the end of the commercial to find out about elf's price point. Like, it is such a, it's such a musical theater performance until the end that there's so much weight on my brain of them seeing how they're moving around like an 80s personal injury commercial. That in an attention span economy, if it wasn't Matt Rife and it wasn't.

B (7:15)

A drag queen, but it is and it is. And I think it's like a car wreck. Like, I think when you start watching it, you actually want to. You want to get to the end.

A (7:25)

American Eagle's move was brilliant because American Eagle was a brand founded in sexuality, in understanding the psychology of popular versus unpopular and wanting to buy a brand that made you more popular. And there's an ugliness to that positioning, especially for like the age demographic that they're going after, right? There's a, you can't sit with this idea, sit with us idea ideology. And for American Eagle to have departed so much from that and to have really hurt themselves as a brand, it makes the most sense to pendulum swim swing back in an extreme way that pisses off a lot of people because at least you're going back to people that had already spent money with your brand and connected in the past. So that I really agree with that move. On the ELF side, ELF has always been a generic, overly friendly, more inclusive brand. The entire premise is anti popular, anti spend the money, anti signal based on a brand. I find I feel like this agency is just trying to move into that positioning, which I think is intelligent for a lot of brands. But I don't think you just have to execute it with, with every single brand that's in your portfolio.

B (8:38)

One, I don't know what ELF has always been. I know that companies grow and they respond to market conditions. And in an oversaturated market where it's hard to be heard, I would not tell ELF to be cautious. What I love about it, what I love about it, and a lot of corporations aren't doing it, they're still making million dollar corporate commercials that are useless, right? They're investing in creative. I didn't like the creative. Like, I didn't like Happy Gilmore, but I bet you a bunch of people think it's hilarious because they see the world differently than me, right? And maybe younger people think it's hilarious because they're watching different things on TikTok or YouTube than I'm at, right? Because I'm watching, you know, different podcasts, but they're watching Drag Queen Story. Sorry, like whatever that drag Queen show was RuPaul. I think it might be putting into it doesn't resonate with me. But at least they're investing in creative.

A (9:28)

Totally.

B (9:29)

Right. And so many brands are not. They're investing in big shoots and fancy cameras. Like that looks like it was done in a garage.

A (9:36)

Right.

B (9:36)

Like the way it was filmed. Like it doesn't look overly sophisticated.

A (9:39)

Like it wasn't super expensive. And I agree with that. I guess the perspective that I want to share on this, this piece is I really agree with their alignment on Matt Rife. I think that that was a really intelligent move. I agree with you that brands should be able to evolve, and I think that elf's move is evolving in a direction that's going to keep them relevant, which is really important with the road acquisition. Clearly this brand is gearing up to do big things, and I respect saying bold things in order to keep a place.

B (10:04)

Do we know who the marketing agency is behind it?

A (10:06)

The agency is called Shadow, and it's founded by Lizette San Friedman and Brad Zeifman. And they have been around for a while like they're kind of OGs, and they have. They have a huge book of business. So they have Tasha, they have Aerie, the American Eagle, they have Elf. And they used to focus more on traditional pr, but now they're really leaning into campaign ideation and strategy. So they're kind of really executing these, like, viral social moments.

B (10:34)

We gotta get them on the podcast or talk to them because they're doing something very interesting. And I think for our listeners who are founders or small business owners, you need to invest in creative. Not. Not expensive budgets, not expensive shoots. You know, again, we've gone through this in our own. Like, everybody wants to spend money on what used to be cool, expensive shoots, expensive commercials. Invest in great creative, find the creative that works and then double down on it. And what we're seeing in these big business scenarios, there's lessons that the smaller businesses can take from it.

A (11:04)

Yeah.

B (11:04)

Is make something that's actually interesting and don't be scared of controversy so that people start talking about your business.

A (11:10)

Well, you have to be controversial. And I really want to talk about the role of controversy. When you're wanting to grow and the word controversy is so. It's so negatively charged. Right. When you think of the word controversy, it's it. The way that we are raised is to not be controversial. But when you talk. When you hear people online talking about the role of controversy, it's the only way to stand out, because the algorithm Enjoys friction. It enjoys seeing people stay on something longer, watch it a few times, send it to a friend, come back, type a comment, delete the comment, read comments. That entire experience of how much additional time you're keeping users online pushes your brand further through the algorithm. And we understand the role of controversy. And I do not give a flying F about the construction workers we're pissing off with the Happy Gilmore, too, because they're not our customer. But the issue for this is when we want to give ideas to clients, they can't come with what that territory requires. Like, they would ask you to pull down the video because it's getting comments of people that are never going to be your customer.

B (12:21)

Yeah. What I think is interesting about your point, and we haven't really talked about it too much, but asking yourself as a business owner or even a marketer, how your experience allows you to react with controversy. Because culturally, when we work with some people from certain cultures, especially Asian cultures.

A (12:39)

Yeah. High context. Yeah.

B (12:40)

Right.

A (12:41)

You cannot be controversial.

B (12:42)

You don't want to say no. You don't want to ever look wrong. That's why they don't put their hands up in school as much, because looking wrong is very bad. So they're terrified of it. But you have to ask, what marketplace are you in? And so if you're in a marketplace that's not adverse to controversy, you, as a founder who wants to make money, have to go through some steps, probably with a good advisor, to become comfortable with it in a way that's true to you. But I think that holds a lot of founders back in their marketing, messaging.

A (13:10)

And branding because they don't understand the role of virality. Like, if you want to grow, if your goal is growth, growth means that you have to have new eyeballs coming onto your page or your brand. In the digital, digital sphere, the only way that you have measurable, measurable growth on your page is because you're doing something interesting or different. And interesting and different means you can't regurgitate the same thing that somebody else said, or you can't really say anything. And I've really been pushing people recently. I actually had a really famous speaker that I was doing a discovery with, and he's like, what this entire approach has taught me, because I talk a lot about outer circle versus inner circle, is that he's like, I've been actually saying nothing. He's like, I can't break through even though I have 100 book speaking engagements every year. Because I'm not saying anything different online. There's no reason to bring new people onto the page. And people don't understand when you have 6,000 followers or 4,000 or 1,000, however many number you have, a hundred thousand and you post a piece of content and on average only a thousand people see your piece of content. Instagram is telling you that your other 99,000 followers, they do not think your content is good enough to send to people who have followed you. And when you talk about the word growth, that's why there's a metric on your Instagram post. When you click on it, it says percentage of new followers. If your content isn't even getting to new followers, you are not growing. And in order to grow is a different problem to just be seen by the people who follow you.

B (14:44)

Comfort is a growth killer, right? And people love snuggle blankets in their life at every level, right? But a snuggle blanket around your branding and marketing strategy does not allow growth because. And we see this with people who, they make a piece and then they fixate on edits, they're fixating on tiny little things. And really that's just insecurity in today's world because it gives them control, right? But they're not making interesting, controversial, creative, but they're focusing on trying to make each post perfect, which is nobody's going to watch it anyhow. You're just burning marketing dollars. And what I ask people to think of if you doubt what we're saying here, next time you see an accident, try and drive by and not look over at the ambulance. And I guarantee you, you can't. Even though, you know, rubberneckings make causes. It's called rubbernecking, where everybody like leans over to look. It causes traffic jams. There's nothing to see. There's nothing to see there usually, but you will look. And that is your attention.

A (15:44)

You are so frickin correct. The step though, to get from saying literally nothing to being the proverbial though accident on the Internet is such a massive gap. And that's the thing that I talk to most people. I'm like, when I'm talking to the average person, I'm like trying to get them to talk about like, why they choose to not use a proven brand in their industry because they professionally disagree with this ingredient or that they're like, I can't even do that video because I'm so afraid of the other doctors, proverbial doctors in my industry, judging me. And I'm like, all right, well, conversation's over. Because if you're not even prepared to say what you truly believe and you're saying in a consult, that's done. And. But the growth for us to get to the point to be comfortable of going online and talking about a popular movie and saying that it's not good is. It's taken even me a while to get to kind of that place. And it doesn't. That's what I'm saying. Like for you to talk about the proverbial accident on the Internet. It's taken us time and it's taken also me to realize that it's not going to kill you.

B (16:49)

You can take it down just for interest sake. Let us know in the comments next time you're driving by an accident if you don't look, because I want you all to think of when you go by, try not to look at the accident. I just want to know if people can do it, because I bet you they can't.

A (17:03)

Well, the only people that are going to tell us are like the two people that take pride in not looking.

B (17:07)

At the accident or they're going to be lying about it.

A (17:09)

No, but that's, but that's also why often the most famous figures are controversial figures, right?

B (17:15)

Is because they stage controversy.

A (17:18)

But that's what Howard Stern literally said is he said initially in his, early in his career, he played it safe. And he realized when he just showed up and said controversial things, people loved him and people hated him. But regardless of what side they're on, they still continue to tune in.

B (17:34)

You know, when he got canceled, when he, when he just subscribed to one political thing and this year he got canceled because he got, he just bent the knee to a power thing.

A (17:44)

But he also too, though, it's also what's really interesting about the digital sphere. When you're beholden to networks and when you're beholden to companies, you don't have the power to say what you want. And that's what you're seeing with a lot of these big brands that are still company owned. They're, they're realizing that the power of these Internet personalities that they live to tear you down. And that's like the elf Matt Rife. Point is, he's a literal comedian. Like, he didn't make this comment as a, like, professor, as a professor, like, he was a comedian. And the point of comedy is for it to be on the extremes because what's funny is the things that people can't say. And I'm not. It's not that his joke is funny or not funny. It's that he's allowed to in his role to say shit that's offside. It's. He's a comedian. So in order for like the Internet who are spending $7 on foundation to become political pundits and these experts on TikTok telling you to stop, to not buy it because a comedian made a comment that you did not like is the problem with brands that are subscribing to the sheep mentality because you're not going to get anywhere by trying to please everybody.

B (18:52)

So much good stuff there. That's a real all day long the. And I think we're going to talk about it later in the podcast about the opportunity for family and founder led companies.

A (19:02)

Yeah.

B (19:03)

To beat the big guys because they can brand.

A (19:05)

Like yesterday when I was on the call with founder, I did a like a group call out of Australia and one of the students said, you know, one of the girls had shown her brand and it was, it felt more similar in an, in an industry that wasn't the one that she's in. And he basically brought up the point of Zag. You know, the idea of when everyone is zigging you should zag. And what I thought about that idea and I said, you know, it's complicated in visual identity because to go back to that point of like how many calories it takes to consume because you don't want your product to take too much work for someone to understand what you are. So if you're an adult vitamin brand going like hot pink and tutti frutti with yellow is going to signal to the consumer that this is probably for kids and it's probably not going to be successful because it's not visually aligned. But if you actually really want to understand the fundamental of zag and what zag represents, that is the American Eagle Sydney Sweeney campaign that is hiring Matt Rife to do a beauty brand, to do a beauty commercial. Like the idea of zagging is actually doing the thing that, that causes commentary and a conversation because that's what's, what's different. Like we don't need another beauty ad of inclusive models in a, in a filtered within a beautiful meadow, smelling it, looking at their skin like it's. That's not zagging. Right. That's doing the same thing.

B (20:29)

It's a cash barbecue. Like it's just. I honestly today think that 70, 80% of marketing dollars are complete waste of money and the agencies and the marketers are just using kitschy words to keep people thinking something's happening. But it's an absolute waste of money. And people need to refocus where they put their business.

A (20:46)

Because business, because every business owner wants it easy. They want the magic pill. They want the creative that has no risk, that doesn't. That doesn't piss anybody off on the Internet, which is like, impossible to do if you want to actually, like, stay stand out. But they want to sell out their product and they want to have a viral 15 minutes, but they don't, like, they don't understand what that comes with.

B (21:04)

It goes back to comfort, right? Like, it's more comfortable to pay somebody to do something, you know? But what founders and business owners need to do is make content that's uncomfortable.

A (21:16)

To them because the things that are worth doing are hard. That was even when I was on this call yesterday with founder. It was like 30 people who have jobs, started, businesses who are starting. It's almost like this, like, hobby where you can, like, order these. You can go to a formulator, you can go to AliExpress and you can design a product and you can build a website and you can generate some images on and you can have this company. And I realized when I was in there, I'm like business owners. It is so saturated. It has never been harder to break through. It has never had been more noise on the Internet. And you think doing the same shit as the brands that are that make hundreds of millions of dollars per year is going to make you stand out.

B (22:02)

But what I want to say to that is it's also never been easier to be successful because of this power shift. In the past, to capture market share, you had to pay millions to a giant agency that controlled it. And today, as founders, if so, you can't. It's easy to start a business, but you can't start a business and play it safe and try and do just do what the big people, the big boys do or the big girls do. Right? You have to. If you start a business, you have to be a gorilla. Yeah, you're fighting special ops, deep operations. You can win. Like, small guerrilla operations can defeat giant countries and companies. Like, if you just look at the Ocean Spray campaign, most everybody should look at that. 20, 20 individuals on a skateboard playing Dreams by Fleetwood Mac drinking an Ocean Spray, not a paid commercial. 35 million views did more for sales than all marketing campaigns combined in the past 10 years for Ocean Spray. Right? You can do that. Right? You're not gonna do it on the first time, but you can try to do those types of things. There is a power shift that empowers you. If you get the right advice and you take the right initiative. Just don't expect stuff too soon. You know what I mean? And don't judge yourself by what others are doing.

A (23:10)

Well, it's literally the conversation I had yesterday. Like, you know, not for nothing, but we. This podcast has changed our lives, right? Like, we get incredible opportunities, and we're not owned by network, we're not sponsored. We didn't. We didn't be. We weren't introduced by people at Warner Brothers.

B (23:26)

Can't cancel me.

A (23:27)

We paid for this equipment. It took a lot of episodes, took a lot of work, took a lot of bodies, but it. And you don't know which one is going to be the one. But when you're. It's. I call it the in the game theory, right? When you're in the game and you're showing up and you're doing the work, and you're not doing the work for the reward, you're not doing it for the treat, you're doing it because you go through a mindset shift where you understand you have to be involved in your branding. You need to say something interesting and you need to give people value. And when you're just. When you, when you have that mindset shift of I'm not trying this for three months and giving up. When you have the mindset shift of I proverbially work out, I eat healthy, I create my own content, I am a founder with a personal brand. It transforms the opportunities you have and what comes out of that content. Because you're no longer looking for, like, you no longer see it as just work. Like, I don't see creating content as just like an annoying thing that I have to do, and I want to outsource it. We are obsessed, obsessed, and we're invested, and that's what does well.

B (24:32)

And. But humans make the mistake of they overestimate or over expect what can happen in the short term and don't appreciate what can happen in the long term. It's like fitness, right?

A (24:43)

It's like everything.

B (24:43)

You work out three times, you're sore, you don't see a change. You just, you just do the work for a year, working out. All of a sudden you're a different body. Same thing with content with marketing. Like, you really have to invest in it. I. I just want to interrupt this podcast for a rogue lawyer mindfuck moment. I want to help our listeners with tactics and tips that I use in the variety of my businesses. And because we're always talking about authenticity, I just want to, in Your workplace and in your relationship. Here is a way to know if somebody is authentic or not.

A (25:14)

I'm ready.

B (25:15)

Are you ready? You look them in the eye and you ask them, are you authentic? And do you know what inauthentic people say right away? Yes, I am. But authentic people will think, they'll pause, they'll go, oh, my God, do I tell the truth all the time? Am I this? Then they'll go, and they'll kind of say to you, yeah, I try to be authentic in most situations. But ask somebody if they're authentic, and if they immediately say, yes, I am, they're not authentic. And that's a little red flag to you in your business. You know, you're dealing with somebody who's not being completely honest to you.

A (25:46)

Cool.

B (25:47)

Let's move on.

A (25:47)

So you have to understand the role of virality, right? Like, in order for something to go viral, people have to fundamentally disagree. And people don't understand that. What makes the algorithm pop off and what makes it do well is that you're exuding an opinion that people can either fully support or fully disagree with. And what becomes complicated with virality is you need to share and showcase your opinions. Because often people show support through. Through silent action, right? Through following through, sending it to somebody else. There's a very small percentage of people, when you're saying something that a large group of people are gonna disagree with, that wanna support and come for you in the comments. Like, most people don't want to be in the controversy, but they want to share and participate in it, and they wanna see content that aligns with their values and their worldviews. So for context, if you went to the Happy Gilmore post, we're going to read some of the comments, you would be like, ooh, ah, I don't know. But what you don't see is the. We got a ton of followers from it, right? A lot of people followed it. A lot of the people who are our target clients and customers reached out to us or say to us privately, holy shit, that was the worst movie I've ever seen. The movie is falling apart. And three, you start generating clients and customers that are more in line with you because you're sharing your worldview and your values.

B (27:10)

It's who your target market is, right? Like Happy Gilmore's target market might be people who eat McDonald's every day, right? Our target market are, you know, educated, elevated marketers and founders and business owners who are generally interested in growing thinking. So even though the relation, the ratio of comments is negative, because it got. It got viral because people who didn't generally follow us started shitting on us, right? Our target mod, our target audience likes to see them shit on us and agrees with us. You know what I mean? So it reinforces the people we want to have a relationship with. And, you know, it's. Once you get to the point where we're at where now we enjoy I love the trolls.

A (27:53)

I love it. Well, wait, because I'm going to show. We're going to read the comments like, I love it. But it was no different than the Taylor Swift one, right? We done. We did a video on me saying, I don't understand Taylor Swift brand. And we had like 6,000 negative comments, only to me, because Philip was playing the hero in that episode. And if you saw the comments alone, your brain would make a decision in judgment based on one set of data and facts. But what's more relevant is what you didn't see is that I got 10,000 followers from that video and it was 10,000 followers of professional businesswoman who align with my worldview and perspective because they're in quotations. My kind of person. And that's why it's important to get comfortable in sharing your perspective and your opinion because that's the only thing you have to stand out. Like, the reality is it's uncomfortable to do it. It's not easy. But it's the only way that you can disproportionately give yourself a leg up in the world for whatever you're selling, whatever you want to do for literally no cost. Like, there's literally no cost if you just take clips off the Internet and add them as overlay to the edits platform while you talk on your phone and giving your perspective.

B (29:10)

Let's read some comments. Like, these guys know nothing. They are boring. They should not be.

A (29:16)

On the Internet, nobody's opinions matter less than these nobodies.

B (29:22)

They just. You're just mad they didn't use your. Your crappy podcast for the movie. Well, that's true. We should have had a booth, you know, at the crappy golf tournament.

A (29:30)

That did actually make me sad. Found it way more entertaining than this clip.

B (29:34)

Who's Rose leader? Because I liked her little comment that she's our buddy.

A (29:38)

She was in our. She listens every week. Shout out to you, Rosemary.

B (29:41)

Thank you for enjoying my sense of humor.

A (29:43)

You guys know nothing. It's a light comedy. Take a chill pill. You guys are tools.

B (29:48)

Worst podcast ever.

A (29:50)

L take. We have a loser take, but how.

B (29:53)

About there's one you Just did this for the views. Okay, well, you know this. I shouldn't even comment on this. These people are commenting on it, saying it's a waste of time. But you did it for the views. We did it because it was interesting to us and we were authentic about the movie. Right? And that's. That's why we're. We do a podcast to get a discussion.

A (30:12)

You guys must be fun at parties. Shut up. Because your generation can't get this million views. We are different era. The ones who see this movie and as a golfer like me, 28 years. This is one of the best movies is okay. We are always hurt your feelings and you're hurt now. Lmao.

B (30:32)

We should send that person a gift certificate for Dr. Pepper and McDonald's so he can just carry on enjoying his life.

A (30:39)

Two people not in the movie. Cry face, cry face.

B (30:42)

Zero plot. What a joke. Y' all just mad your little podcast doesn't have 42 million viewers.

A (30:48)

Worst movie ever.

B (30:50)

Oh, shut up. Who even are you? It was classic Adam Sandler. If you didn't like it, you never liked any of his movies. That's not true. I loved his first movie. But the difference is from an artist perspective is the first. Happy Gilmore didn't have a lot of budget. So when you don't have a lot of budget, and this is what founders can take from it, you have to rely on creative. You have to actually be creative, right? But when you have too much money, like a lot of the big companies and ad agencies, they make shitty creative and try to fix it by spending a lot of money.

A (31:19)

Well, that's the issue. It's like action, action. Flash bang green screen. This.

B (31:23)

Let's have put in a spinning green with. With sea bass, with laser beams fall from the ceiling.

A (31:29)

This one's the best weight. Look at that. Two people who could never sell a movie script talking about how bad a movie script is. That's the Internet for you, folks. I feel like we honestly should be approached by.

B (31:40)

I do have a couple movies.

A (31:41)

It should be a contest of, like, we should get like a week to be able to, like, write a script and, like, with where AI is going, because they have, like, scanned all the people. Like, we could, like, relaunch Happy Gilmore too, and wouldn't tie polar have the last laugh.

B (31:55)

Honest to God, Live is so interesting. I would have had Adam Sandler go to Saudi Arabia and play and, you know, there's so many jokes there. You could bring Borat to be a fucking guest in there. Like, there could have been so Much fun stuff. But anyhow, thank you to the haters. You make us better.

A (32:11)

We love, we love you.

B (32:13)

And haters are my motivators anyhow. And somebody's like, it's the best sequel ever. I'm like, hello, Empire strikes back, Godfather 2, you know, Harry Potter is great. It's the best sequel ever. Ridiculous.

A (32:27)

We're doing that to laugh. Because the point is, and it isn't to pass judgment, it is just the reason why we create content is for utility, right? Like we run an agency, we love doing branding, we love working with business owners and we want to attract business owners who want to think differently.

B (32:46)

Honestly, like, I like helping people who are good people and helping them scale through branding and what I do with strategy that gives me the most joy. But I feel like what people need to hear and they're hungry to hear is how to think clearly so they can grow because there's so much noise telling them what to think.

A (33:01)

Yes. But it's also, you also understand that this is just a piece in our larger puzzle, right? Like in order to generate more awareness, in order for our podcast to grow, in order for our accounts to grow, like you have to take, you have to take a mid body strike at big shit that you can tell you.

B (33:19)

Went duck hunting last year because you got that shotgun.

A (33:21)

I had a good position.

B (33:22)

We'll post a picture of you duck hunting on first the podcast for that.

A (33:25)

But when what like you have to, if you have an opinion on something that is breaking or that is happening, like that is how you ride the algorithm. And it. My point of why we wanted to touch on and to bring it up is you have to use it's. It's really that idea of like the thinking fast and slow, right? You have to use more of that longer term strategic brain than that initial response of I'm in panic, I'm being attacked, I need to shut this down. And when you analyze the comments that are negative, they are not business owners that are launching strategic and successful products that we would want to work with. And that data point is so relevant in how I want you to move forward in life that you have to stand out and either be prepared to piss people's off, people off whose opinion don't matter to you.

B (34:13)

It's so true. And it's so true in the, in the industry, even with marketing, like be alive to how many buzzwords people are using in your marketing world because strategy has been replaced by buzzwords goals. Like this year, our strategy is to capture more market share. That's not a strategy. Right. And. Or to be more inclusive. Like, these aren't strategies. We're not. We're not promoting people getting into deep thinking which questions us assumptions. And I can tell you, having worked with people, very successful people, they're often held back because they've become too accustomed to not having their assumptions questioned. And I've had many experiences recently where I question somebody's assumptions. And there's a giant wall there, but it's their own barrier to growth. And that's why you need to bring people in with an outside perspective who can come into your business and go, wait a second, is that assumption actually valid still? Or are you just doing it because. So, yeah, in order to grow, you need to have friction and get out of the comfort zone and have people question you. And that's what a lot of founders don't like doing. They just, like, tell marketers and lawyers and all of these service providers. They become expert at feeding back to you what you want to hear so they can take more money from you. And I think that's what's different about the way you do things and we do things is we're prepared to tell potential clients what they don't want to hear. And if they don't want to hire us, that's fine. But you're not paying. If you have a yes person working for you, one of you is redundant.

A (35:34)

You're bang on. But also an interesting point to what you're talking about. And like, the longer theme of it is, if you want to be wrapped in bubble wrap, it's going to be so impossible for you to move forward because everything is so highly documented online. It's interesting. I was listening to Diary of a CEO of. I mean, you're too old for this, but remember the Suite Life of Zach and Cody? They were like, super relevant to me, but they were these, like, two twin boys that had this TV show on Disney Channel. And he talks about how it's. It was interesting to become kind of a big child actor before the years of, like, social media. He's like, because if you launched a. If you launched something that, like, wasn't good, it would just go to the back of the shelf and Blockbuster and, like, you know, it would just be kind of buried. He's like, now it's so interesting and fascinating because, like, so much of our lives, like, live online. Like, think about stuff you tweeted when you were, like, 14 and like, you can be hired by a brand in your 40s and then someone just goes and digs back and then it'd of be kind becomes this huge controversy and it's, it just, it's getting to a place where we're so oversensitive and we're trying to find ways to cancel to. Because we want to like Virtue Signal and Virtue Shame and it's it. We need to become less sensitized to the differences.

B (36:48)

Because when you have movies, I am old enough to remember the blockbuster rental day. Like, there we go, right? Like, it's hard. There wasn't really anywhere where it was hard to get movie reviews. Like, you know what I mean? Like you would read, you would read in the Chicago Tribune Roger Ebert's movie review. But like you didn't have like journals ready to find it out. But in today's world, movies can, they don't have to appeal to the masses. They can appeal to a segment because you can get a million people around the world to like it. And I, and I, you were talking this week about Reddit and Pinterest and how these things are kind of changing the way you find niches.

A (37:22)

Men are buying on Reddit because when, when men go to make a buy, men are less fleeting in their buying decisions stereotypically. So they're not looking to just buy what Hailey Bieber posted about, you know, wear it for two nights and like be done with it. Like, men's buying decisions are more intentional or it's more gift focused, right? Like they will get, they'll get their jacket for Christmas. Like that's their winter jacket. So because of that, there's been a massive trend towards Reddit threads, which is an anonymous based feedback platform that is kind of evolving into where men are making their marketing and buying decisions. Because like you've even gone through this. Like you spend a lot of money on Facebook ads and you've bought like luggage off of Facebook ads. You buy brands off Facebook ads, but you become frustrated because you buy this like cool Swedish luggage brand that is like different and you feel like it's unique in yours and then you wear it, use it for six months and then it breaks. Like, you're probably a consumer that might move to looking at a Reddit thread from getting feedback of other men of like, what's new, durable, what's going to last?

B (38:23)

And it's, and it's, let me say most marketers and agencies don't do Reddit. So again, it moves to the power imbalance you need to be. But Reddit is where people can do research, where pe. There's an anonymity to it so people aren't worried about being canceled. But it's also harder to populate with fake reviews and fake bots, which is. Right.

A (38:44)

Yeah, you can.

B (38:44)

And that's where you can see reviews online that are fake.

A (38:47)

Can't do it though.

B (38:48)

It's just people.

A (38:49)

Pure labor. Right. It's, it has to be an in house marketing tactic.

B (38:51)

But Patagonia, but the creative is important.

A (38:53)

Yeah, Patagonia is doing it well. And Patagonia has also become a cult brand within definitely like tech bros. Like the Patagonia vest over top of the like sweater. Like they've really have tapped into like having a market segment and it makes sense that they're connecting with men on Reddit.

B (39:09)

So if you're just, just from this like what you can take away and this is like stuff we usually chart for. If some of your target market is men, well then spend a few hours learning how to go on Reddit and create some channels that, that allow men to research your product.

A (39:23)

It's worth it for me just giving you like a quick little sizzle on that. So basically the way that Reddit works is you have to get like almost a domain authority. So you have to give so many comments on, you have to contribute to the platform. So that's how they like stop brands from just like infiltrating on brand product. So we actually did this for a client years ago for trying to connect with people of color for laser hair. And it's very difficult to do it because you can't go on and like only talk about a clinic or like only talk about a brand. So you, it, there's like a, I don't know what it is now but like an inverted point system where like you have to like upvote so many things and like so many things so that they can keep the more genuine.

B (40:03)

So a Reddit influencer is kind of an interesting concept because you actually have to be involved in the platform, very.

A (40:08)

Involved in the platform. And that's what makes Reddit really interesting is that the people who use Reddit really love Reddit because they're very involved. So it's not like it's not like a Google search, you know, where you show up and you're kind of like tapping in, you know, like how Yelp and they have those like quora forums and stuff where it was more fleeting and a little bit like more sketchy. Reddit is more like it lives and dies by its network and by the, the, the, the, the quality, the level of contribution quality. So the answer you get on Reddit is usually quite in depth, like it's a very solid answer. So for people who really like to research, it is a strong way because it's anonymous too. Like you don't get anything from giving an honest review. So people who really want to give real feedback love Reddit.

B (40:51)

That trend is interesting. I hope that there's influencers in Reddit who can make money because it sounds like they're more committed to being influential by giving real opinions. That would be something I would look at. But it also leads me to discuss substack. Today's world when everything is oversaturated, we're both enjoying substack because you, you can actually choose who you follow. Like you can limit who you're following. And it, because it's got a lot of intellectual thinking. Like your substack articles are over the top in terms of content and quality. Right. And so rather than going on Instagram.

A (41:24)

And because I went to school for writing Ray and having.

B (41:31)

Ray will know what we're talking about. But like I find on social media the news feed that they're giving you, right is designed to kind of keep you engaged, but it's distracting you. And sometimes it's hard to follow the people whose opinion you really want. But you can go on substack and follow 20thinkers and then your brain can deal with their content.

A (41:52)

I get a lot of questions as to why we do substack and kind of the thinking kind of behind it and it goes back to that being that in the game theory. So if you're a someone that's starting out, it becomes very easy to be overwhelmed by the Internet of things. You know, like there's TikTok and there's instagram and there's YouTube and there's substack and there is a, what I really like about it at the point of where we've, we've mastered the time management of video, right? Like we have video kind of like locked in. It was a really interesting journey with our own content creation journey in that first it becomes very difficult to create a video in a minute or less. Like to like get a video with like all of the points in less than a minute is very difficult. And the reason why it's difficult is because it goes against the way that we've developed our, our eq. So like our social skills and our ability of like when you, you have a conversation, you have a polite lead up period, you wait, you, you provide the storytelling tactics and you can't get out all the core points in 60 seconds.

B (42:51)

I'll add one of the reasons why it's hard to make impactful short content is captured beautifully by Winston Churchill where he said, if I have to give an hour long speech, I need five minutes of preparation. If I have to give a five minute speech, I need an hour of preparation. It actually takes more work to make something condensed and powerful than to just ramble on and all the points will eventually fall.

A (43:13)

It takes way more work. But it also takes way more work. You actually have to rewire your brain. Like, you're not used to spitting out the core points. It's actually, it comes across honestly as almost rude because you're like, almost like yelling at someone like the core points. And you don't do that in the day to day. But then once you start to kind of master that, then it almost becomes easy to dilute the message and to only give the like, high level core points. Because, like, it's almost like someone is like running by on a marathon and used to be like, okay, be home by 5, gonna make dinner at 6, you know, we're gonna eat chicken. Like, that's kind of the idea of the 60 seconds, right? It's like the three core points.

B (43:51)

But you get better view percentage rate as well when it's shorter.

A (43:55)

But my point is that it almost becomes like, you become so good at it that you almost lose your art or your skill to it because you're not using your brain in longer formats. So that's when it becomes better for you to start writing out the idea because then you can, you kind of are going back to that paint stroke of like, what is it that I actually want to share and what do I want to do? And that's where you can. Your brain can start going into different content mediums. There's people who like to read a longer format. There's people who like to read a shorter format. There's like people that like to. That's why it's in. Instagram's really pushing different content mediums. Like, you should be doing a carousel and a video and a substack.

B (44:31)

I always think of coffee shops for some reason, but I think of short form Real in a coffee shop is the serenity, the quick serenity of being a quiet third space where you're working and you're sipping your coffee, right? That's a short form reel that can capture a bunch of attention in different ways. It's done well. But then you could write a substack article about the beauty of getting more into the depth, you know, how you felt something right. Like it's same messages, different audience.

A (45:01)

No, totally. That's a great way of looking at it. But the reason why I chose Sub Sex particularly is it's kind of evolving to be almost its own social media platform in that when you do newsletters it's isolated to only going into your inbox, which is annoying for a lot of people. But what Substack is cool is that it, it gives you both. So it goes to your inbox, but it also goes to your app notification. And you can get really good content on Substack. And a lot of brands are going into it too. Like I really respect the way that rare beauty does it. They really show you the behind the scenes scenes and kind of an inside look of how they're approaching things and how they're doing things. And it's, it's a unique and different medium to get to know the brand in a different way. And it's just a really cool platform. It's. It's kind of like going back to like more like the old school MySpace and social media is so like flashbang. You know, Instagram's like video photo over filtered like best corner of the cafe. Whereas Substack is more like here is like as an artist in whatever you do. Here is my approach to the art of this message.

B (46:04)

Like you can improve your life if you go to a coffee shop every day and rather than scrolling you have five people whose material you like and every day you just read one of their articles. Yeah, just as a comm. Because you don't have to buy a newspaper. You just read Camille Moore's Branding with Benefits. You read, you know, Chamath, Poly Polly or Ray Dalio's Principled Investing. Like you could actually really improve your life with five to eight minute reads of people that you like and declutter.

A (46:32)

Highly recommend it.

B (46:33)

Follow Camille Moore on Substack and the Rogue Lawyer if you're feeling dangerous.

A (46:36)

The signal on.

B (46:38)

It's called the signal on. It's called the signal On.

A (46:42)

So we've talked a lot about the kind of, let's call it the, the sign, the signal. Right. Like the creating the creative and the power of creative. The other thing that we wanted to touch on is understanding where to disproportionately invest in your product and service. And I think this is a really relevant conversation because times are tough right now and it's. Businesses are constantly looking for ways to save a dollar to cut a corner. And we had the experience recently with so FS8is. This is a not a paid segment. This is just truly Camille and Philip in the wild, always acknowledging and noticing where businesses do things right so that you guys can learn from this. But we went to this new Pilates club that opened up in town here and it's called FS8 and led to a really interesting conversation because it's created by the owners of F45 and they really did Pilates very differently. Like the way that they approach the programming and how they're doing the class is. And we, we do a lot of Pilates. It's like a Pilates class. I've never. I know you, you do a lot of Pilates. So the Pilates, what they did differently in their Pilates is they're leveraging weights, movement, the actual reformer in a way that. And I've done a lot of Pilates that you haven't done before. And it allowed us to have a full conversation on the level of programming. Because what they were F45 and FS8 really differentiate themselves is how much money they put into creating the workout program. And if you haven't been to either of these, F45 or FS8, basically what make their boutique fitness, you show up, there's two instructors that are there to kind of like guide the class, but the entire workout is done on a screen. And the screen shows different workouts and it like leads you around the room. And it's either strength based or weight based, or it's cardio based or it's a mix based. But every single day there's different screen based programming. And we've been going for years. And the programming gets better the longer the business is in place. And you can tell that they disproportionately invest in experts who are obsessed with programming to create the best workout plans.

B (48:52)

Like, there's power in scale. And it's interesting because F45 started with some experts who were trying to know the most about building a routine. But they created a category where they. That you stopped, you didn't need a personal trainer, which is what people were spending money on. Having somebody hover over you breathing, which I always thought was odd, or going to a gym with a regular workout. And so they just use TVs to show you exactly what you needed to do. Right. They got rid of the mirrors and they just said, look, watch. It's not about looking at yourself, it's about looking at what to do. And they created a program that the average person couldn't create on their own. And it was good, but as they scaled their force multiplier now, and I don't know the internal workings of F45, but I would assume, based on what I'm seeing, is they've now hired experts and they've got resources that are constantly trying to figure out how to make that 45 minutes better. Less injuries, more results, more fun. And because they can concentrate the best in the world. And remember, all of our businesses are dependent on people. So. So one of my lessons learned is don't save money on cheap people. Borrow money to get the best people, because your business will succeed based on having five top performers. But now they can invest in the best people, and then that is now disseminated across. So somebody who opens up in Pasadena now gets the best instruction all over the world. That's why F45 is now so powerful. Because whenever I go into one, I know I'm getting consistency, consistency and excellence in the product.

A (50:24)

And that's what I really like about celebrating a brand that did stuff differently. Because a lot of the boutique fitness, it's very instructor dependent, it's very vibe dependent, it's very location dependent. And what I really respect about the F45 model is, like, the brand is very good. Like, it visually looks very strong, but the consistent consistency and the quality of the experience disproportionately outperforms the bougie ness of the Barry's red room.

B (50:57)

Yeah.

A (50:58)

You know, like.

B (50:59)

Yeah. And what I want to compare it to is Peloton. So Peloton is dying. And it was great in Covid, because in Covid, it gave you that amazing studio feel when we were at home. Hot instructors, great lights. They invested in the experience. And, you know, I might get some hate from it, but I still have a peloton. I went on it. The instructors don't look fit. Like, it hasn't changed. It's not inspiring. I don't need to be in this kind of woke environment for my workout. I want to be aspirational. You know what I mean? Like, it's not about just constantly telling me every workout how the world needs more rainbows. I get that. I support that. But they've moved away from providing the best cycling experience, the best cardio experience. What do you think?

A (51:44)

Peloton is an interesting case study because they forecasted a business model based on a situational moment that was not going to perpetuate forever. So they were. They were perfectly situated to provide a boutique fitness, an escape from a stressful time that was locked down. And it was above and beyond what.

B (52:06)

You'Ve ever experienced on a bike, a stationary bike. It was a category killer.

A (52:11)

Category killer. And it disproportionately was like, just from an experience standpoint, from the state of the world. They had everything mastered and they nailed it. But what's interesting is it goes back to the concept of the signal and the noise, where a lot of the people that continue to stay on it when the world opened up and they went back were people who want to stay home and be safe and to work out in a safe environment. So the message that they kept getting reinforced, having safe instructors, having a safe message. Because disproportionately, the people who stayed are people who don't want to be seen working out outside.

B (52:45)

Interesting.

A (52:46)

The problem with that is that when you only listen to the people who stay, you stopped attracting new people to come. And Peloton is now positioned to me as it's a backup option, not the first option for going to an F45 and an FS8. And for that reason, they're only going to decline because of your brain. Thanks. Because they're not going to continue to be aspirational.

B (53:14)

Yeah. And it's hard to market to it, but they just kind of think that people are going to be drawn to it.

A (53:18)

But it's because it's. But that's also a thing that founders need to be aware of, is that your brand can get stuck in an echo channel. And it's not that it's wrong to listen to that customer, but Peloton needs to be focused on growth. Because the model only works based on subscription demand.

B (53:32)

Yeah. Like. Like, because it costs two grand for the bike. Right. Like, so it's expensive. So generally people spend money to be aspirational. But I. I'm. This might be. But based on what I heard you say, I might say to them, why not market to the people who want to be scared? Like, be anti spinco. You know, like if you want to do it. But don't pretend that you're that. But then not be that. It's almost like they have an accidental market now and they're not speaking because you could bring tons of people who hide in their houses there. But you have to double down on that message. Right. Make fun of the people who go in. In the tights, who. Who are filtering and taking selfies during. You know what I mean? Like, that might be an angle to increase their market shares, to double down on the people who don't want to be seen and want to be safe. Right. I Think, but they're trying to act like they're Spinco or Soul Cycle. Right? But they're not anymore.

A (54:20)

I think that the way that Peloton, like they did a one like kind of the one kind of lane of controversial commercials and I think that it was the best. Like to me they need to go back to showing transformations. Like they need to create ads of like Amy lost 50 pounds at home doing the peloton regime. They need to do more marketing of this. This in your corner, in your basement that you know it, this clo. This coat rack that sits in your basement or in your office room off to the side is the difference between you getting into like, they need to move more into that traditional messaging of. Of like what the transformation of what your body can get because that's the most attractive for sitting right in your house.

B (55:02)

To me, I would kind of get hot without the judgment, you know what I mean? Like, because people are worried about going in there and there's. And the one thing I think they missed and we didn't expect to talk about Peloton is you put in a profile. You put in your age, your location, your demographic and a statement. It's kind of like because you get high fives during the workout, I thought peloton should have moved more into a dating kind of social thing where you can actually get to know people. Where you're riding, you're giving them a high five, you're encouraging them. You should be able to put more pictures on there. I think for those people who want to stay home and be safe, you know, when you're riding, maybe you want to swipe through who you're. Who, who you're writing against, who's on there live. Like I think that would give it an extra dynamic. That would give. Would give value to the program as.

A (55:47)

Opposed to or even like if brands could like send you like a coffee or like send you like there's a lot that they can do from tapping into the virtual world. The problem is like they're just over leveraged now because they spent like they had. They. They. It was such a swell during COVID that they got punch drunk and they didn't properly invest that into the ip.

B (56:05)

Honestly, I was look like their instructors are not impressive. They're a lot of the same people and they've let themselves go. It's just, it's not a dynamic environment. I actually go on the bike and put on something else on YouTube now instead of listening to the Peloton instructors.

A (56:19)

Wow, that shows you a lot.

B (56:21)

Yeah, they should give us a call.

A (56:25)

Next segment. So breaking news. Soho House is going back to being private and Ashton Kutcher is joining the company. So it's interesting if full return from. So I was like on the up and like went public and boomed and then had so much attrition.

B (56:43)

So why I think this is, this is probably the only thing that could save Sovol House in terms of its brand. Because one thing that we know from our experience is that once you go public, your brand starts to die. The bean counters, the quarterly reports, the ROI metrics are just brand killers, slow brand killers. But we were experienced at Soho House seemed different.

A (57:04)

Public brands are only focused on making more money and what made Soho special is that they limited memberships. Like there was a cap to who could join, there was a cap to experience. It wasn't a like public watering hole. And Soho lost its vibe because it went public.

B (57:22)

Because once you're public you have millions of anonymous individuals who are just care about rate of return and that can't make a brand. Right. It's only for. But why founders, even small businesses, medium sized businesses, family run businesses, you have the greatest opportunity ever to make a brand because the big guys can't. They're dying. And and brands are made generally through the passion and purpose of a founder, somebody who has a vision and is willing to exclude some and include others. And what are your. Do you think this can save Soho House?

A (57:57)

I think it's going to be what saves Soho House because the founder of Soho House is a master of real estate. And that's what people don't talk about with Soho House is that Soho House isn't the best private club. It has the best real estate all over the world. And that's the reason why you join is that it allows you entrance into a creative world that is devoid of social media bragging rights. Because you can't take photos in Soho House but at like literally the best locations in the world. And that's why I joined is because we travel a lot and when you're in Spain and when you're in Rome, you stay at a member's price. So you get like significantly inexpensive places at the best real estate in the world. And that's what made it fantastic. So when he went public he wasn't even making the right like real estate buying decisions because he didn't own the company anymore.

B (58:53)

A public company that's really a real estate company will then try to get more skus to be more profitable.

A (58:58)

Yeah.

B (58:58)

And so what they'll do is start selling, have a gift shop, you know, like, start selling more. And it all takes away from the vibe. And if the long term goal is to have the best places to hang out for people while your real estate accrues over decades, that's a beautiful model. That's almost like a Chanel model. Like, those properties aren't going to go down in value, but if you try to, to extract every penny from them, you, you ruin the business.

A (59:21)

Well, and that's why I started to feel like, less connected to Soho House because the real estate was good, but because everything else was not. Like the experience was starting to falter. The. I, I wasn't, I wasn't staying in the hotel. Right. Like, and also the price point started to go up. Like it lost. What made Soho special is that it did well, but it wasn't focused on profit. And the customer can, can, can see when you start to cut those corners. Because prior to them going public, we'd get upgraded to the, you know, to the big room, which in New York City is like a big deal. When you pay $300 a night and you get a huge room with a king size bed, like that is a moment that makes you feel loyal to a membership. But when you start to lose that, you start to lose your base.

B (60:06)

Yeah, like it just off the top of my head, because there's an exclusiveness out of it. Like they gotta double down into it because those rooms are really cool. But there should be ways to qualify. Almost like you're moving up, you know, the Hermes ladder or the Scientology ladder, whatever it is like that if you're a contributing member to the Soho House vibe through a bunch of different things, you can qualify, like almost make it like, so you don't know if you get a reservation, like they select you. Like I would kind of make it so that you're, you're fighting to be, to feel like you're in the community as opposed to just pay. They were just selling as many memberships as they could because it was more revenue, but it was taking away the value of the membership.

A (60:43)

Well, it also annoyed me too, because they made it like the same menu at every club. And I think a part of what makes a membership experience special is that like when you're in Amsterdam or when you're in Spain, it's a menu that's like global, you know, like it feels local, it's a global brand, but there's a local feel. And when you go to like Spain and it's the same butter lettuce salad that they have downtown Toronto. You're like, it feels more McDonald's. It doesn't feel like a curated membership experience because these are people that travel, these are people who are cultured, these are people who want the nuance.

B (61:18)

This is what I want founders to get. It's persuasively poisonous what the big companies are doing to get short term profits. The butter lettuce salad is good in New York. Right. But we don't want it in Europe. Right. We don't want it, but it makes sense on paper. And you can't let your branding be delegated to accountants, you know, or financial planners. You have to believe in something. You have to believe in serving your clients and your customer base and double down on it. But there's never been a better opportunity for founders to create brands, to create something unique and to beat the big guys by focusing on long term branding investment.

A (61:57)

Yeah. So I want to talk about David's Protein because they did a launch recently that was absolutely brilliant and it was kind of missed online because it wasn't, it wasn't traditionally controversial. Right. And because it didn't make people mad and it was really cerebral, it was swept under the rug. But David's is a new protein bar company. It is founded by the guy who started RX Bars and he sold that company and he partnered with another gentleman and they raised $85 million to launch his protein bar company. Because the company that was adjacent to rxbar. So another company he owned basically owns this patent on epg, which is the ability to condense more protein into like a soluble product. So you like. It's the only product on the market that can condense like 23 grams of protein into like 100 calorie bar, 150 calorie bar. And there was a lot of. Anyways, so David's has really like launched.

B (63:01)

Why I like it is because our ex had egg whites.

A (63:04)

Yeah.

B (63:04)

Almonds, you know what I mean? And something else like basic pro. And so he blueberries. So he tried to put the most protein in with egg whites. And so then he sold that and then evolved. So so it's a natural brand progression to evolve into a protein bar that's more complex but still has a protein punch.

A (63:21)

Because RX Bar really owned. It wasn't a protein bar. It had protein in it, but it was more of that like on the go fuel. Right. Like it was better than a kind bar. It was better than the, the Cliff bars.

B (63:32)

It was well done. Yeah, it was, but it and great branding too. Like it looked like that kind of old pharmacy chemist branding on the pharma.

A (63:39)

It just made you trust it, you know, like it was very simple and trustworthy. It didn't feel like big box. So he left that or exited that company, started this company. They're already on track this year to do $100 million in sales. And so what they did, they launched. So their entire marketing is tied to really, it's like the best source of on the go protein next to a boiled cod. Right? Like a, like an actual full protein source. So they, they, all of their marketing was always comparing their bar to boiled cod. Like it's literally the next best thing to the most boring protein source that you can eat. And it did, it did really good marketing because it really spoke to educated people who are on the go who want to grab protein because they're busy professionals. And it spoke, it got out of the like quest bar marketing or like the. Where they, they're full, full of junk and like you don't know what's in it. And it's. The protein source is in a soluble source.

B (64:30)

I wasn't eating those protein bars because I just felt there was just too much jammed in to make it seem like a candy. Yeah, right. And it went against. If I'm having a protein bar, I feel like it should be healthy and not candy tasting. So I don't want to be reminded of sugar when I'm trying not to eat sugar.

A (64:46)

And you're the kind of person that like really aligns with that message of like, this is the next best thing to something that in your mind is like real protein. So they actually went and launched flash frozen boiled cod in select grocery stores across the US fucking brilliant. For $55, like, for like a high price point. So they launched literally the product they compared themselves to in the grocery stores as a way to speak to their target customer that they are a legit protein source. And it's so intelligent because this is the kind of thinking that generates a hundred million dollars in the first year because you understand your target market so well. And I wanted to touch on it because so many business owners are, they're distracted by things that don't connect to their true and core customer. And this is a decision that you can tell that it's an intelligent founder that like is, that is very involved in the marketing and branding because that is something that wouldn't make simple sense to most business owners. Like, they think it's a distraction. It's a different category in the grocery store. But it is so intelligent for connecting to that target customer.

B (65:54)

It takes deep thinking to take the branding message. Where he went from Rx, then he goes to David's bars. So he links himself to Michelangelo's David, which is the perfect, the perfect form. So it's got a psychological reference point for educated purchasers who, if somebody knows what David is, they're probably encouraged to focus on fitness. So that's a great step to say it's here, but then to take the risk of taking a. A piece of cod and turning it into that's what a protein bar. That is second and third order thinking that I'm really impressed by and to invest in it. And there's not an ROI originally to it. Right. But it actually, it cements the brand positioning of what the David bar is because they were able to take that risk to show it, like, to me, it's brilliant. It's almost hard to speak.

A (66:42)

It's like so guerrilla and so intelligent. Because to go further, you might not be the target customer listening to this, but we are like protein freaks. Like, we try to only eat protein. And it's very hard when you're traveling a lot and you're between meetings to get in your protein count and to have a company create a, like a premium product in a different category to get fish suppliers when you're at, like, the checkout is so much additional work. But it's literally when we were in Texas, we went to Central Market, which is like the era on of of Texas. We bought like 20 of them because seeing that leap signaled to me that they are my people. And it's such an intangible. When you talk about the difference between branding and marketing, branding are those, like, asymmetric upsides that are. That are hard to measure, one for one on a balance sheet, but are the things that, like, stand out, that stick and that make your brand last. And it's the same thing with F45 and FSA. I support those businesses and I have memberships and I go often because they are my people. Like, they are so invested in keeping the product at a point that continues to get better that they earn my loyalty and they understand that we are their target customer. We want to go in for a hard workout for 45 minutes before the workday. And when you understand and you're so in line with your target and you make such intelligent decisions, like you look at, read the Trader Joe's case study, you read the Four Seasons case study, you read the IKEA case study, these Brands that became massive were not a mistake. They truly understood their customer, and they made decisions that made perfect sense to their customer and to their customer only.

B (68:26)

You know, there's something to be said for the old. The old ways. And I'm trying to capture by taking a piece of cod. It used to be called scrud. It was considered, like, poor people's food. Right? So cod was just scrud. Even on menus in. In Europe, it's called scrud. Right. But it's like, it just reminded me a bit of Don Draper when they were talking about tobacco. Like, you have to find something about the product that speaks to your target market audience. And so they took a piece of cod and said, this is the most dense form of protein, and then took scrud and made it into a $55 pure protein product. Like, it's beautiful, right? And there was something in obvious items I was trying to look up about. But, like, when Don Draper took tobacco and said, rather than this, this. And just say it's toasted, even though it's all toasted, it just conveys something to the audience about feeling, you know, speaking to what they want from the product.

A (69:18)

But they're not even doing their product to really sell it. Like, they're not. They're not looking like there's. There's not gonna be frozen cod flying off the shelves. They. I think they have it in, like, two grocery stores in the U.S. like, they really did this in small batch. It was a guerrilla marketing play to sell more protein bars. I don't want to go and buy the flash frozen cod from them. They're not a cod company. They're a protein bar company. But by them going and doing that, that.

B (69:40)

Well, they're a protein cup. I would actually buy the cod in a grocery store, because when you reframe it now as the highest density of protein per pound on the market now I look at cod differently. I don't look at it like cheap filler food.

A (69:53)

No, that's a great point. That's a great point.

B (69:55)

I would go into the supermarket and buy it if they told me that it was pure and good, like, and I would cook it more.

A (70:01)

Every grocery store, like, it's like. It's like this one really bougie grocery store in New York City. What I mean, like, it. And it's being sold for $55 for one tiny square piece of it. So it's. It's not like, really. No, I know, but it's not really being designed to be, like, sold on mass. It's More of a marketing play.

B (70:19)

Yeah. But a beautiful marketing play. I'd love to. I'd love to ask. I'd love to ask or interview the person who did that. It was spectacular.

A (70:27)

I guess. Chef's kiss, French kiss. I guess. I feel like David's protein bar is actually like a full French kiss. Like a smudge protein.

B (70:34)

Okay, nice. I wanted to talk about organic first paid second concept. Because I don't. I. I think I would say maybe 1 out of 100 agencies or marketers know this or are saying it right?

A (70:51)

Most people are like, because they can't do it.

B (70:52)

Yeah.

A (70:53)

It's. You know how, how much this is like why founders, you have to have an in house marketing team because it is so difficult as being a third party to provide for you as someone that doesn't work at your company. Amazing organic content. Like that is why, like, honestly, business owners that just keep throwing money at agencies, like, you're just, you're keeping people rich and your, your brand is suffering because you cannot outsource organic. What makes it organic is that it is done in house.

B (71:27)

You can get ideas. Like we get paid to give people ideas like, because that creative brain is.

A (71:31)

But ideation isn't the execution. Talking about organic content. Right? And that's half the battle too. Right? It's the people that we work best with are so obsessed with this stuff that the idea is the difference because they can go and execute it, you know, but the people who like take the idea and then don't really get it. So they don't get the right angle or they don't get the right piece. And that was like a conversation I had two weeks ago. Like, that 20% difference is literally the difference.

B (71:57)

And you have to practice to become good at it. But rather than. Every agency is like, spend money, they'll sell you. People are still buying SEO, you know what I mean? Because there's some results in there. But rather than spending money on ads, spend money on creatives. Test them. Like make five creatives. Do. Do $5 spends on Facebook, right? And see which one does the best and then double down. Like, make creatives. Find a creative that works a bunch and then invest as much money as you can in the creative that performs well.

A (72:28)

I got to ask that yesterday. I was like, this woman is launching a compression stock company and she's like, I was trying to identify my target and there's just so many people that can benefit from this. Like, should I pick one or what should I do? And I'm like, you're thinking about this wrong. You should create content for five different audiences. Create five piece of content for each of those audiences based on their pain points or concerns, their issues, their, their. Their goals, what do they want to get as a guide. And then once you have those 25 pieces of content, launch them all and see which ones work the best and which one performed the best. Like, stop. You're doing so much stress before the actual testing of the execution of it.

B (73:04)

So 25 pieces of content, spend $10 boosting them on Facebook. Right? That's $250. Take the top five and then spend your money. That advice right there is worth $50,000 to any founder. If you just did that, you could. You will transform the way your business works totally. But you have to invest in making. Because I tell you, there are so many bullshit reports that come out of agencies in terms of ROI time spent on page. It's just meant baffles. It's meant to distract you to think it's there. Like, if you're getting direct leads, that's one thing, but there, there's a whole industry of reports that are designed just to get.

A (73:37)

I don't think it's their fault. I don't, I don't think that's the right. If you're being, if you're being hired to do a job and you provide data to, to show them the job, it's just the data is the data. But it's. It's not their fault that you're not involved in shooting your content. Like it's. We live in a world where we watch everything through our phone. Like, you should be shooting stuff at your business, at your job. Like it's. I don't think it's fair to blame the person that's being hired when you're hiring them to get out of a job that you need to be doing.

B (74:05)

Sure. But you just have to be aware that their, their survival is based on giving you data that is often corrupted or manipulated to make you think that it's working. And you need to look at your own bottom line to see if it's working. But most people are just burning cash.

A (74:19)

It's. Yeah, but I don't agree with that. It's not. They're not really editing data reports to manipulate the data. It's that the data can tell.

B (74:27)

There are tons of big agencies doing that right now that are completely editing it. There's ways to get clicks. There's. What you can hire organizations in the east that will click on ads that will generate that Looks like there's engagement with the materials. Like I, I can post up the links on it where you can pay somebody that will just click through ads. Google was actually found to be doing that because you only pay for a Google Ad when somebody clicks on it. And so they were paying bots to click on ads in different countries.

A (74:54)

Yeah.

B (74:55)

So you have to be very aware of that type of stuff.

A (74:57)

But that's also Google doing it as Google. Like that's not also an agency. Right. Like it's. You're not wrong at what you're saying at the highest level. I'm saying the average person that's listening to us is not hiring these. A lot of them are actually at the highest level level. Right. When you're talking about like a marketing agency doing socials for you, many of.

B (75:13)

Them are buying them followers too. Right. Like many of the, the accounts that have tons of followers were bought and the same thing is happening now.

A (75:20)

What I see though, a lot of the accounts who had bought followers is when followers mattered more. Like I find more businesses know now that like followers aren't, isn't the, the real metric.

B (75:30)

But all of those people who are living in Southeast Asia who were paid to be followers are now being paid to click on things crazy and lick them. And you can see their rooms with like 500 phones just playing things like. So just be aware that you, you need to be aware of that. Another thing I wanted to ask you, I think from our perspective and clients perspective, why do you think there's a resistance to live shopping? Like everything that I see when I look out there and the signal I get is that live shopping online is, is the new thing away from department stores. Why are people resistant live shopping?

A (76:04)

Because Instagram hasn't really it. So Instagram has no capability to do it properly. And TikTok was set up to really support the live shopping model. But TikTok is so hard to set up the Tik Tok shop and to get those pieces in place. Tik Tok really blew it. They really blew it. They blew it on the like, the support aspect of like who you can talk to to get it set up. Because TikTok was really the place where that could have done as well as it did in Asia. But it's. You don't get, you can't really get support.

B (76:41)

This is where I want to push back. Wherever you see something is tough to do. And this is what I want to tell the younger generation. Stop saying it's tough to do if it's tough to do for your competition. That is a screaming sign that it's worth doing right. And the problem is is it's worth doing it. It's not easy, but everybody wants it to be easy so they can see immediate metrics. If, like, what I see from live shopping is it's not just about the shopping. It's a secondary way to get attention. It's a secondary way to get followers. It's dynamic, it's uncomfortable. You're not going to be successful on your first three and it's tough. But from my perspective, if it's tough, if it was very easy to set up TikTok shopping, everybody would be doing it.

A (77:22)

The reality, though is the people who are being successful on the live shopping are there for hours and hours and hours. So for the average business owner.

B (77:30)

So why is Gary Vee telling people, small business owners every time he talks to them to set up live shopping?

A (77:35)

I actually don't agree with that message from him because when I look at like the ability to create organic content and for it to be in feed linked, I've got a lot of data from it. Like these business owners that show up and do like an hour live, they're selling five, 10 products, which is like something. But when you look at the numbers of like when Jeffree star does it and he goes, I make 50,000 alive, he goes on for 12 hours. And that's also what they do in Asia is like they go on and they show up for like.

B (78:00)

Yeah, but he didn't start a week ago. Right. Like the opportunity was there because nobody else was doing it and because he was doing the hard thing when nobody else was doing it.

A (78:08)

Yeah, totally. I'm just saying that the, the barrier for sitting on there for eight hours or for seven hours, like that is hard for the average business owner. That's why I'm not as like, I'm not as bullish on it. Like you're being is that I would rather, if you're starting on all the things, get better at creating organic content and positioning. Like there's boxes.

B (78:25)

But this is where I think the effects are. One hour a week, two hours a week, go live. Even if. Because you'll get used to being uncomfortable.

A (78:32)

Yeah, yeah.

B (78:34)

You'll be used to a little silence. You'll be used to seeing yourself on camera. Right. It's part of the training thing. But I would just think, take a look at it. I think people should look at if they're selling products and their niche products that are loved around the world, who.

A (78:45)

Knows as A founder, you should be more involved in your business. Like you're not wrong in bringing it up because you need to get uncomfortable. You should be creating content, you should be creating a community, you should be doing lives. The only area of where it's complicated is it's not the jump from not being involved in your socials and not creating content to just going straight to the thing that's that in your brain is like sale, sale, sale. It's not going to work the way that you're saying. It needs build up time. So like you're going to do a lot of the lives. It's going to be 10 people that are on it, 11 people that are on it. Which is to your point. You are correct in that you need to start, you need to start thinking in terms of I need to get on my phone more, I need to shoot more, I need to get more connected to a community. But it's not the way that it was being sold a few years ago. Which is just storefront.

B (79:31)

Yeah.

A (79:32)

Yes. As the storefront.

B (79:33)

Yeah. Like I'm just thinking of it now like I should be going on Facebook Live or TikTok Live more often and just offering scaling advice. Right. And having people come in and getting used to that. Like it's just because when you give yourself live, people are attracted to that, you know? And you never know who is a casual follower who might click to see what's going on and becomes a more passionate follower.

A (79:53)

Yeah.

B (79:53)

Who then refers. That's pretty much all I've got for today. When do you got left?

A (79:58)

The last thing I'd like to talk about is I had an interesting moment yesterday on that founder call and I was speaking to a woman who launched a product out of necessity. So she went through a very difficult pregnancy journey and she tried several times and she couldn't get pregnant. She had an atopic pregnancy, she had surgeries. She just went through like literally a hell of a time to have a kid. And during her last attempt was going to be having to do ivf, which is like very expensive in the United States. So before she went to an IVF journey, she went and like did this like full 180, got super healthy, started taking these like pills that were like derived from beef organs and basically ended up having a baby, a really healthy baby after years of disappointment and feeling like she was never going get to be able to have kids. So she's launching this product and she. It obviously this is a big part of our story because it came from necessity and she was Talking about, you know, how to tell her story and being afraid of not wanting to contribute the like the ability to have children with just like taking these pills because she's like, you know, that, that's, she's. I wouldn't tell people that I had kids because I took these like beef organ pills. And she was like, you know, what do you think about that? You know, I'm like worried about telling my story. But like, I know everyone talks about, about stories, like, what do you think? And I'm like, well, it's important for you to tell that story. That's the reason why your product came to be. And it allows you to connect with more people. But that story is a story and not the story that's gonna like bring people in. That story is a bottom of the funnel story. That story comes when you've attracted eyeballs and awareness through creating content that's controversial. That's that, that speaks to those audience pain points. And I'm like, that's the issue. And what's hilarious is that she worked for Donald Miller. How to build a story around like you, you, you understand this framework like you're not being the guy.

B (82:00)

She may have worked for Donald Miller story brand, but she has not taken the Camille Moore social media because that's where you learn how to actually do this stuff.

A (82:08)

You have to understand the role in which your story plays like it's a pinned post on the top of the page. But people don't care about your story. They care about their problems, they care about what they're going through. And then you become a laneway into helping them go on their journey. You become their guide. And that was the most interesting perspective to this, is by you having your story pinned and that being a part of the brand and a part of your journey for becoming a founder led, thought leader in, you know, natural pregnancy space. People who are struggling with having kids, you're now just giving them an additional thing for them to tack on because you're now educating them and being a thought leader. So I think a lot of people get caught up on the idea that you need to tell your story. And your story is important for launching a product 100% it is, because without it, you don't have that trust, you don't have that credibility. But your story isn't the main driver. It's an aspect to the buying cycle at the bottom of the funnel.

B (83:03)

Your story is not for you to be the lead character. Your story in essence is to allow you to be more relatable right and people want to relate to your story and then position it to what they're dealing with. So it allows them to buy and follow.

A (83:16)

Exactly. So for those who are wanting to launch their brand, I, I always highly recommend the how to Build a Story Brand by Donald Miller. I think it's a fantastic read because you get so in the weeds of hearing people saying you need to be a founder led brand and you feel like it's very like you, you need to spend speak at them instead. You just need to give so much away. And that was another meeting I had this week actually where I was like, you don't realize like in order to grow, you actually just, it's exhausting how much value and information you have to give away to help people. Because otherwise if you're just signaling the outfit you're wearing or what you're doing, that's only interesting to your inner circle community. Like to a small group of people.

B (83:55)

Yeah, no, but the scaling coach in me now comes to Camille Moore and goes, you know, stop talking about Don Miller's story Brand your courses, capture it and give a hundred times more. Somebody who joins your cohort will do a hundred times better. So stop just telling them to read like they should take your course. If they can't afford that or the cohort, then they can go back to the story brand. But what you are doing is manifesting that 10x for their businesses.

A (84:20)

That's what I have you here to sell my shit. So hope everyone has a fantastic week and enjoyed listening to this episode of Art of the Brand. And as always, always guys, send this to someone. Make sure you're following subscribing to us on YouTube. We show up every week for you, show up for us.

B (84:33)

We need voices who will say things that need to be said. So please do us a favor solid.

A (84:39)

Like share, follow, have a great week everybody.