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- [00:01]
A
This past week was the Victoria's Secret Fashion show, which happens every year in October. And it was really interesting to see how the brand approaches. Or it was really interesting to see how the brand approached this year's fashion show, because it was a complete retreat to where the brand was before they took a different direction. And it was interesting because I still think there's space for improvement. But overall, it was the OG models back in, you know, their. Their tiny, aspirational frames, and they had invited really, like, the it girls on the Internet. So, like the top influencers, not by definition celebrities, but very much by different definition, like, influencers. So what was once regular women who now have hundreds of thousands or millions of followers. And they did a pretty guerrilla and aggressive campaign for them to all start talking about it before the show and then posting about it when they were at the show. And I want to talk about it. Yeah.
- [01:01]
B
And I think you're. I don't want to say brave, but that's why people listen to you, because you will talk about these topics that everybody's terrified of talking about, because they'll just say, oh, you're fat. Shaming. And that's not. I think we have to understand what aspirational means to humans and who defines it. Like, not everything is the same, but there are many businesses that have lost market share, you know, because they missed a point.
- [01:26]
A
Well, Victoria's Secret actually poses to me an interesting branding case study, because Victoria's Secret was at its highest in a different time, and I've spent quite a lot of time this week thinking about it, because there is something to the millennial and the Gen Z audience addressing that. That's not only what society wants. And I don't think that that's wrong. Right. Like, you know, for where. How I feel connected to the Victoria's Secret brand. What I want for the Victoria's Secret brand is more tied to who I am as a consumer. I want these aspirational supermodels. I understand I don't look like them, and I'm never going to look like them. And I would prefer to watch women walk down the Runway in lingerie that are, you know, 6 foot 2 and, like, in these crazy costumes, and they're tiny. It's really enjoying. It's like. It's like. It's like watching a basketball game. To me, like, this is like, these are crazy human beings that. That are worth admiring for what they are because they're not normal. Right. Like, they're. They're outliers, but in Working through this in my mind in the past week, I think the issue that happened with Victoria's Secret is that the market changed and Victoria's Secret should have done was continue to be who Victoria's Secret was instead of trying to continue to maintain the entire market share. So what's interesting is Victoria's Secret entered into the market when mass market direct to consumer lingerie wasn't as accessible. Before it was more department store and it was like higher end brands or it was like lower end brands that you would find at like lower end department stores. Victoria's Secret kind of marked that like emergence of more like niche retailers in a mass market. Like going into luxury.
- [03:09]
B
Like accessible luxury.
- [03:11]
A
Yeah, accessible luxury or premium. And as E commerce developed, as technology and digital developed, it became easier for more brands to enter into the market. And for that reason the market changed and there became an increased need for other kinds of undergarment and lingerie brands. And where Victoria's Secret failed is they tried to please everybody by trying to be greedy and keep the entire market segment instead of keeping, continuing to only focus on, instead of it now being the entire market a very strong 30%. And by not staying focused on who their brand is and who they satisfy, they like try to please everyone and they lost everybody.
- [03:57]
B
Luxury car companies did something similar when they, they kind of made cars that went down to the midsize or you know like the mid level sedan.
- [04:06]
A
Yeah, it was like seven different BMWs or Audi Audis. And you like don't know what's the expense or the cheap one unless you really know.
- [04:12]
B
And now the brand doesn't mean anything. It's the number after the brand and that's all. But it's not, we're not comparing humans to cars but working. We're comparing product offering and brand positioning.
- [04:22]
A
No, but I don't think anyone should be confused about that. Like what the criticism on Victoria's Secret outside of you know, who the body types that they represented also was a more general like it didn't reflect what all women want to wear. There was kind of two things going on with it. Right. Like that very like boudoir, like you know, hyper feminine sexuality that you know, really kind of speaks to there being like a male partner or counterpart to that sexual relationship isn't what women would wanted anymore. Right. Like there was a, a lot of women wanted like bras that actually better fit them and like underwear that was like actually fit their bodies better. And because everybody wears underwear, there's like many different market segments for what People want in their underwear because it's something that everybody wears. Right. Like, and that's okay because the reason we started chatting about this is we walked by Nyx, and Nyx has done a fabulous job. You know, it's. They've done a great job for who their consumer is. I'm not their consumer, and I'm not buying from their store, their product, but I respect what they've built. Like, they felt like they saw a gap in the market. They diverged, and they created a great product. But that shouldn't be at the expense of shaming a brand that speaks to.
- [05:43]
B
A consumer that wants that or that's aspirational. There's just different segments. And to me, if human behavior psychology, like, aspirational. Humans want to see the best of whatever category. If you're in the aspirational.
- [05:57]
A
But if you don't want to see that, you shouldn't have to watch it.
- [05:59]
B
Yeah.
- [06:00]
A
And that's kind of is my. Like, I agree with what you're saying. I agree with the standpoint that the only women that girls shouldn't like, they shouldn't only be able to see those kinds of women. But I do think we've come a far way since then. Right. And we can continue to have fashion shows that can put those women on a Runway. Because I would rather look at that. And if you don't want to, that's your prerogative. And I'm not telling you what you have to watch, but that, I think, is the core takeaway of Victoria's Secret. And they're in this weird place now because they're trying to, like, backtrack and get back what they lost without, in my opinion, really doing. No, but without really doing the work. Like, in my opinion, like, I would have done this year, like, I would have, like, leaked stuff. I would have been doing, like, behind the scenes. I would have done, like, a massive campaign.
- [06:51]
B
Even embrace controversy. And sometimes, like, even you can even fabricate controversy. Like, but you want to embrace the haters sometimes to amplify the brand, because everybody is going to hate you if you're trying to be aspirational. And that's something people have to know. If you want to be the best in category, people are going to hate you. You're actually nobody until somebody hates you. If nobody hates you, you haven't done anything. You haven't pushed any boundaries. So. But what's happened in the corporate circles is they're terrified of haters or trolls, and so they end up doing nothing, and they dilute the brand. But you need to lean into the controversy of what your positioning statement is.
- [07:24]
A
Like, you make such a great point. Like they should have tied this with like a Netflix documentary of that original founder that I forget his name, that founded Victoria's Secret and have the whole segment be on. Like, I just wanted to showcase the most beautiful women. You know, the standard was so high. Like I, you know, we had women fainting because they were just wanting to be in the show. Like they could have done this documentary that could have been launched like you know, July or August. And it really set up like the excitement for the.
- [07:55]
B
Yeah, it's interesting. This is where business thinking comes in, which is not just socially pleasing everybody because humans are frail in their ego. They want to wear things that they think make them look better. So if somebody looks at Victoria's Secret, it's aspirational. They put it on, they could look amazing in it and they love it. Right. It's just like a guy who buys an expensive car who's fat, bald and ugly. Right. He thinks he's good looking in that car. You know what I mean?
- [08:21]
A
But he is good looking in that car.
- [08:24]
B
He's giving him something.
- [08:24]
A
Yeah, he gives him the confidence. Like he does get.
- [08:28]
B
That's his buying decision. And so we have to understand the buying decision of human psyche if we want to increase sales or build a brand.
- [08:34]
A
But I even think it's more complicated. I think it's simple to shit on Victoria's Secret because they used very beautiful and skinny models. But like at the end of the day, if I want like, I'm not going to Victoria's Secret to get basics. Like, that's not where you go to like, you don't go there. You go there to like get like special occasions. Accessible Lingerie, like lingerie has always been something that's like at the high, like Agent Provocateur is very expensive. It's like $300 for, for a bra and like $300 for a tiny pair of underwear. So what Victoria's Secret also represented is that like it made that level of lingerie more accessible. Now, Victoria's Secret isn't telling you that you're not beautiful if you don't look like the models they pick in their shoots. No different than Wolford isn't telling you that you're ugly if the woman that they're using for their tights is, you know, using a slimmer model or any other brand like in, especially in something like Intimates. It's. It really just comes down to like, do you subscribe to buying lingerie? And if so, does that store check the box? Probably because there's, there's like the other options in the mall are like, I would call them like older lady stores. Like, to me, like la vina and rose. That doesn't spread speak to someone that's like in their 20s. Like, it's a, it's a more mature woman. It's more lingerie in the concept of like their everyday wearables. Like, and because women who are 50, 60, older than that, those, the kind of underwear shops represented something different back then than they did like growing up. It was like it was Lily Victoria's Secret. Or you got this stuff at like Lisenza girl. Yeah. Or Walmart. You know, like it wasn't you. You didn't have to like, you didn't go with your mom to like a special bra shop and like get stuff size for the first one or at least, I mean, my friends didn't in the city.
- [10:32]
B
I just think when you're, when you're building a brand, there's nothing wrong with being aspirational. We respect the top runners, the top painters, the top scientists. And if you're trying to be aspirational, nobody cares about average. And so you're not helping your brand by showing average if you're trying to build an aspirational feel.
- [10:54]
A
Agreed. And I, like, I don't want to see chicks that look like me walking down the Runway. Like, the whole point is that it's like, I know that this is what most people look like.
- [11:02]
B
You may be underselling yourself a little bit. You're, you know, you're a little aspirational.
- [11:06]
A
But. No.
- [11:08]
B
Yes.
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A
What that represents.
- [11:09]
B
I know you mean no. Yeah, you want, you want, you want things that, that, that make your imagination.
- [11:14]
A
But what the Victoria's Secret shows were so cool is like they were women from all over the world.
- [11:19]
B
You know, that's true.
- [11:21]
A
There was like, there was Asians, Asian models, African, South Africa. Like, that's what made it so cool, is that it was such an array of beautiful women from all over the world that were models. And the Victoria's Secret show is so cool, is that it created modeling careers. So like a lot of the established supermodels, like, they would really close the show. But then in the beginning, it was like all of these younger up and coming models, and it was a cool way to see into the world of fashion. Like, fashion is supposed to be aspirational. You don't need any clothes you see on the Runway, you have to want it. And in order to want it, you have to create desire. And to create desire has to be something outside of the norm and what's regular. So it was a space to see where fashion was going. Because although Victoria's Secret was like an all American mall brand, that is literally where the. The g, like Gigi Hadid, like, all of these famous models came out of. And if you cared about that, that was the sight to see it. It was the American moment of, like, this is gonna be the next generation of models.
- [12:26]
B
Very interesting. And I think finally, like, people will try to pull you down to where they are. If you're aspirational, you can't guide yourself by what people who aren't in your market are telling you what to do.
- [12:37]
A
Okay. I think, though, a good point to go through, though, is you can be successful without being aspirational.
- [12:48]
B
Yes.
- [12:48]
A
But if you are an aspirational brand, and that's the point with Victoria's Secret, is they were always an aspirational brand. They were established as an aspirational brand. The whole thing was like, Victoria's Secret. You know, the name is even, like, you don't like, you know, maybe you'll find out. And then that's where the market changed, is that access to everyday undergarments didn't need to be aspirational. There was a demand and a need for women who didn't want that aspirational feel. And that's where the market expanded. And Victoria's Secret didn't need to be for everyone.