Why Brands Are Dying | The Fall of Forever 21, Disney’s Mistake & The Experience Economy

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Art of the Brand Episode: Why Brands Are Dying | The Fall of Forever 21, Disney’s Mistake & The Experience Economy
Release Date: March 31, 2025
Hosts: Camille Moore and Phillip Millar

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1. Resilience: The Backbone of Business Success

The episode kicks off with an emphatic discussion on the critical role of resilience in business. Camille shares a compelling story from her military experience to illustrate how enduring hardship and persisting through challenges determine the difference between success and failure.

Camille Moore [01:25]: "So that's just where you need to just move back to classics... We're becoming more and more less interested with individual ideologies, and it's hurting brands."

Phillip adds to this by highlighting the psychological parallels between military training and entrepreneurial endeavors, emphasizing that only a fraction of startups survive their initial hurdles.

Phillip Millar [04:27]: "Just the people who succeed are the ones who are resilient in whatever profession they're at."

2. The Downfall of Forever 21: A Cautionary Tale in Fast Fashion

The conversation transitions to the dramatic decline of Forever 21, once hailed as the original fast fashion powerhouse. Camille traces the brand's aggressive expansion strategy and its reliance on Authentic Brands Group for a savior, only to partner with competitors like Shein, which ultimately diluted Forever 21's unique value proposition.

Camille Moore [37:21]: "So what's interesting is they actually brought this kind of Korean, like, the copy paste concept to first the United States... But it didn't work well because you."

Phillip critiques the unsustainable nature of Forever 21's approach in the rapidly evolving fast fashion market, asserting that without innovation, legacy brands risk obsolescence.

3. Disney’s Snow White Mishap: When Storytelling Goes Wrong

A significant portion of the episode delves into Disney's controversial reimagining of "Snow White," which failed to resonate with audiences and led to substantial financial losses. The hosts dissect how Disney's attempt to infuse progressive ideals into a classic narrative resulted in dissonance among its core fan base, ultimately leading to the film's poor reception.

Camille Moore [16:46]: "Disney has really suppressed this, like suppressed this because they don't want anyone to talk about it because of how bad it went."

Phillip Millar [20:22]: "If anybody would have pitched this to me... we would have said this approach is going to be an absolute failure."

They argue that Disney's deviation from the cherished elements of the original story alienated both Jewish and Palestinian communities, demonstrating the peril of misaligning brand values with audience expectations.

4. Reinventing the Mall: The Shift to Experience Economy

Camille and Phillip explore the decline of traditional malls, using Forever 21's bankruptcy as a springboard to discuss broader changes in consumer behavior. They argue that the modern mall must reinvent itself by prioritizing experiential elements over mere retail, citing examples from Korean malls that successfully integrate technology and constant innovation.

Camille Moore [39:00]: "Malls need a rebrand because they don't have the experience factor."

Phillip Millar [44:35]: "It's interesting because the Korean shopping experience is to me the only way that the North American malls are going to survive."

The hosts propose a future where malls become dynamic hubs of experiential activations, fostering continuous consumer engagement through short-term leases and interactive installations.

5. Authentic Marketing vs. Extravagant Brand Events

A recurring theme is the contrast between authentic, founder-driven marketing strategies and costly, superficial brand events. Liquid Death serves as a prime example of successful founder-led branding that resonates deeply with consumers.

Phillip Millar [72:40]: "Liquid Death kills it because it's founder driven."

Conversely, they criticize brands like Summer Fridays and Glossier for their extravagant events, which they argue lack genuine connection and fail to offer meaningful value to consumers.

Camille Moore [102:35]: "This is like you're spending money on marketing stuff that doesn't work because they were told in their corrupted university that these things are true that are not true."

The discussion underscores the importance of brands maintaining authenticity and actively engaging with their community rather than relying on high-budget influencer events.

6. Innovative Campaigns: The Ordinary and Lacoste’s Strategic Moves

Camille highlights The Ordinary's inventive approach to marketing by pricing eggs realistically, challenging the inflated costs of everyday goods to underscore their commitment to transparency and value.

Camille Moore [79:57]: "They're selling eggs at the price point that they should be sold at at $3.37... what's interesting is they actually are in tune with that New York customer."

Lacoste's tasteful sponsorship of the Miami Open is also commended for its alignment with the brand's heritage and storytelling prowess.

Phillip Millar [101:38]: "I think it's a sign that your corporate headquarters is bloated."

7. McDonald's and Mental Health: A Divisive Rebranding Effort

The episode scrutinizes McDonald’s UK initiative to rebrand Happy Meals as "The Meal" to address mental health awareness among children. While aiming to reduce societal pressure to appear happy, the hosts debate its effectiveness and potential long-term impact on the brand.

Camille Moore [91:55]: "McDonald's is trying to alleviate the feeling of feeling happy with this campaign push."

Phillip Millar [93:43]: "It perpetuates the solution in parenting that parents are looking to provide in a way that's simpler than actually facing and dealing with the larger issues at play."

They express concerns that such superficial changes may undermine McDonald's foundational brand promise of bringing happiness to children.

8. Hot or Not: Listener Favorites and Critiques

In the "Hot or Not" segment, Camille and Phillip discuss notable brand collaborations like Kylie Jenner’s partnership with Liquid Death and Lacoste’s sponsorship activities. They praise Liquid Death’s irreverent and authentic approach while critiquing other brands for their over-the-top marketing stunts that lack substance.

Phillip Millar [72:17]: "Liquid Death's campaigns are spearheaded by founder and CEO Mike Cesario, a former creative director who's known for his unique and often irreverent approach to marketing."

Camille Moore [86:01]: "It is now impossible to call McDonald’s campaign anything but fake."

9. Embracing Good Energy: The Power of Authentic Influence

Concluding the episode, the hosts emphasize the significance of "good energy" in branding. They advocate for building authentic relationships and fostering genuine community influence over relying solely on traditional influencer marketing.

Phillip Millar [62:39]: "Find good energy. Create good energy. Find other people with good energy and bring them into your tribe and try and influence, influence your environment through good energy."

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Notable Quotes

• Camille Moore [01:25]: "So that's just where you need to just move back to classics... We're becoming more and more less interested with individual ideologies, and it's hurting brands."

• Phillip Millar [04:27]: "Just the people who succeed are the ones who are resilient in whatever profession they're at."

• Phillip Millar [20:22]: "If anybody would have pitched this to me... we would have said this approach is going to be an absolute failure."

• Camille Moore [37:21]: "So what's interesting is they actually brought this kind of Korean, like, the copy paste concept to first the United States... But it didn't work well because you."

• Camille Moore [91:55]: "McDonald's is trying to alleviate the feeling of feeling happy with this campaign push."

• Phil Millar [62:39]: "Find good energy. Create good energy. Find other people with good energy and bring them into your tribe and try and influence, influence your environment through good energy."

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Conclusion

In this episode of The Art of the Brand, Camille Moore and Phillip Millar dissect the multifaceted reasons behind the decline of once-dominant brands like Forever 21 and examine how misaligned branding strategies, especially those that stray too far into social ideologies, can lead to significant setbacks. They advocate for resilience, authenticity, and innovation as the cornerstones of enduring brand success, urging business owners to focus on genuine community engagement and experiential value over superficial marketing tactics.

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Note: This summary excludes the episode's introductory remarks, advertisements, and the concluding wrap-up to focus solely on the substantive content discussed.

Transcript

[A]

We're becoming more and more less interested with individual ideologies, and it's hurting brands. Where are we in the world that, like, you get casted for this part and you're, like, shitting on the original script? Everyone that's going to medical school wants to inject filler and Botox because they make way more money than being a family doctor.

[B]

That makes me actually want to drink Liquid Death when I go out.

[A]

The reason why Liquid death is killing it is because it's founder driven. I don't think it's impressive anymore to just show how much money you can spend on an event. This is like passe trash. It's just. It's overdone. It's not cool. This is not marketing news.

[B]

What a brand, what a brand, what.

[A]

A brand, what a mighty good brand. Say it again now. What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand. Welcome to another episode of the Art of the Brand. We should start numbering these.

[B]

That's what I want. I want to have it. I tried to count them, but there's so many small ones. We got to get a number. We're over 100.

[A]

I hope so. That's actually when you genuinely create listeners like, it's like such a small percentage of podcasts get over 100 episodes.

[B]

No, I told you, if you want to be in the top 5% of podcasts, just do 20.

[A]

Well, because everyone overthinks it.

[B]

It's soul crushing to see eight views on your eighth podcast.

[A]

So soul crushing.

[B]

It's deliberately designed to make you quit.

[A]

I'm here for it.

[B]

Remind me to tell you the story about quitting in the military.

[A]

Start it off. As long as it's not those desert spider stories. Do the quitting one.

[B]

Yeah, because we're talking about podcasts and how just to be in the top 5% of podcasts, you just have to film 20, because most people never feel more than 20. There are obstacles that make you quit, Right? And in the podcast world, getting low engagement early on is just soul crushing because you've. You put so much time to make it good and you have to work through it. But. But we're in the military. One of the psychological techniques they would use is you go on these 20-30k rucksack marches with very heavy stuff in the heat, and you didn't know where you were in the march or when it was going to end. And the whole time you're. You're carrying these weights and you feel like quitting pretty much after 20 minutes. It's freaking painful. It is blood in your boots. But there's this sergeant's just going up and down looking at you, saying, do you want to quit? There's a bus right there. You get on that bus, you can go home to mom. Warm food, sleeping, you know, none of this. Just go on the bus. Just go see your mom. And so they would do it the whole time. And then you get close, you feel like you've been doing it for hours. And then you see down the road, I remember this long road, and at the end, you can see these trucks. They were called movws. And you know, they set up with, like, canteens, food, water. And so as we're walking down the long thing, we see these trucks set up, and we see guys coming out and putting tables up, and you can see water getting put on there and fruit. And so all of a sudden, everybody just picks up the pace. We've lost about 30% of the people on this hike who quit, right? So they're just off the course. And all of a sudden now everybody who is close to quitting just gets a light in their step. It's amazing how physiologically you can change because you see the end. And then we get there, everybody starts taking off their rucksacks, and the sergeants are all smiling. I remember looking at them saying, why are they laughing? Because I wasn't paying attention to. And then they go, what the F are you guys doing? This ain't for you. This is for somebody else. Put the rucksacks back on. We got more to go. And when I talked to them after, and I used to. I ran that leadership school later, the most people quit two minutes after that because they get themselves up and then they're told that it's not actually yours, and then they can't do anything else. Like they just can't recover from it. I thought it was interesting. And we have that in business where you do well, you think you're at the end and you get hit and people quit. And that's the difference between success and failure.

[A]

Such a good story.

[B]

Don't quit.

[A]

Don't quit. I just. I can't help make it. Making a statement of, ladies and gentlemen, this is what I live with. It's 7am on a Saturday morning, and he's yelling at me, asking me why I'm being lazy because I'm sleeping in.

[B]

I'm not saying lazy, but anyhow, man, I just.

[A]

It's so crazy because what you've been through. When I rehear these Stories and I think through the lens of like the interpersonal dynamics and arguments that we have, I can't understand what you've been through.

[B]

But I think a lot of entrepreneurs, because when you're an entrepreneur, you're fighting a war. You're worried about payroll, you're worried about how you're going to pay your suppliers, you're worrying about the next sale.

[A]

I live those things. What you're saying is a different level of, well, resiliency.

[B]

Just the people who succeed are the ones who are resilient in whatever profession they're at. The military helps teach it to you and kind of force feeds you into it quickly. But if a thousand people start a business, 50 will be successful.

[A]

This is where I slightly disagree. I think the level of it actually deserves a different word because there's, there's a tirelessness or resiliency like to the sale, but it's a different level of like beat you down than what you're saying. Like this is like, there's a lot of successful people that don't wake up at 5am now. There's, there are and there's in fact there's actually like a growing body of. And I mean obviously it comes down to like the, the level of what you define success. I think for you, these are probably.

[B]

People who inherited some money or, or parents are bankrolling it and then they're like, I can be successful by getting up at 9 and having a 45 minute latte and then checking my social. No, it's not success if you didn't earn it.

[A]

It's outward success.

[B]

Sure, you inherited it. But that's why the next generation ruins wealth.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because they think that success isn't getting up at 5 in the morning. They think they're entitled to all of the comforts of life and they think that's success. But success and actual satisfaction doesn't come unless they're suffering.

[A]

But I think it even goes back to like the Bill Bryson the Body book, right. Where he talks about we're literally designed to avoid suffering. So to lean into by choice to suffer, you know, is like physiologically going against what we built.

[B]

But let's, let's take that out because there's a great, great quote that says all successes is doing what average people don't do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So if we're biologically designed to rest because we evolved living in Mesopotamia where there was tons of food, you know, and there, you know. But in today's world where we live in a hyper competitive society where you want to make something for your family and friends, you have to do what other people don't do, and other people just do what they're biologically designed to do.

[A]

I'm in no way saying you're wrong. In fact, I think that your harshness and your, like, the way that you see things. Harshness is the wrong word. Is what's missing. It's what's missing within the society. Right? Like, it's. We don't have enough of these conversations. Like, I can't explain to people when they're like, oh, you. You work seven days a week and we're up. And it's like, yeah, but it's not.

[B]

Hard to kind of motivate some of the business owners and the people who want to make it. Like, hard times are. Okay, there's that quote. Probably everybody knows hard times. It uses gender language. But hard times creates good men. Good men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times. When you study civilizations, you can see this in all of societies that kind of had a rise and a fall. Always before the fall, you saw a change in the way that people approached doing hard things. I think our society is kind of at a crossover. We don't do hard things. When you have hard times in your business, just see it as an opportunity to get better. Because thinning the herd is always good. Hard times get rid of the fluffy competition. It allows people who have good systems, good brands, good approaches to business to consolidate. And then once you come through the hard times, you're going to level up two or three levels.

[A]

I think that the hard times are actually the best times because you only learn during difficult times. I forgot who or where I learned this from, and I know I've said it a few times in the podcast, but, like, I really have learned the most from the difficult clients. You know, you don't learn from the good clients that are easy to work with and don't give you edits and, like, kiss your butt. Like.

[B]

But the. And the hard clients actually make you love the good clients.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

I mean, because you've just. You've kind of experienced it.

[A]

Actually, I would even go further as the hard clients, the difficult people, the bad relationships, those bad moments, they actually just better. They better set you up to serve, you know, like to serve your life, to serve your clients. Like, I'm a better partner or vendor to take care of those good people. Because I've also learned based on the hard ones, how to give a great experience, like how to fix. That's the thing I think I love the most about this job and I working in branding and marketing, is that it really comes down to human dynamics. And human dynamics are so complicated and so varied because what can seem so clear and so obvious to you, it just is so different to somebody else.

[B]

This is a good time to be talking about this because a lot of our clients lately that you help and I coach are struggling with what's going on. And managing expectations is where a lot of people's unhappiness comes from. Like, I think we've made people feel like they have to be happy all the time. And being happy all the time, there's no satisfaction. Like, what's happiness? Winning a medal. Right. If you're gonna win a gold medal, you're gonna have incredible happiness, but prior to that, you're gonna have like, a. A. A large part of suffering. Right. Like you. But if you. If you're living under this belief that you're not successful unless you're happy all the time, you're gonna be perpetually unhappy.

[A]

Yeah. You actually said a really great point to me about a month back, and I was feeling a bit down. And truthfully, nothing really bad had happened. It just. It wasn't, you know, solid tens across the board. And I'm going to paraphrase and it's actually. It does disservice to how strong your point was, but you effectively said for you to be happy or to be, like, successful in your business. Let's say you said 50% of the time. I think you might have said higher. Yeah. You are within the top 1% of society ever. For you to be. Not being killed, not be threatened by all of the things, but to just be basically having a bad week or a bad month or a bad quarter is, from a percentage standpoint, you're still.

[B]

In the.001% of top humans of all time.

[A]

And the biz and business.

[B]

And business.

[A]

And you were like, to have a great business all the time. He was like, one, it's just not possible. And two, it's. That's the game. Like, the game is to kind of. Is to go through the peaks, into the valleys. And you bring up another good point. We're in a weird time, right? Like, economically, like, consumer behavior across the board, everything is down. And we're not talking as a society about what's going on and how we're feeling because everything is so politically divisive and charged. And the only thing that you can do right now is just focus on building your brand. Like, don't cut corners and your customers like don't be cheap. Don't be like just invest in your brand and stop analyzing everything as if it's the last moment. Because it's really that quantum physics to brand. Like when you're staring at something and you just want your socials to perform, it doesn't perform because you're over obsessed and you're focused there for more on the sale even if you're not trying to, but because you're so hyper obsessed.

[B]

Yeah. It's interesting what our phones in the digital world has allowed us to become hyper focused on short term circumstances.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh this competitor did this today. Oh this celebrity did this today. Oh, this is happening. And then our human brains become so focused on the short term it's overwhelming. But you don't really get a reward for doing the right things, the small things. Like if people say hey, let's go for a drink and celebrate, you celebrate, you get that instantaneous look. I'm a team player. If you say no, I don't drink past nine because I got to work out. I got to be up at 4:30. There's no reward for that in the short term. There's only a reward. Six months down the road.

[A]

Yeah. 12 months, five years.

[B]

And so as a business person you have to think like that too. I'm not in the business of getting daily atta boys or atta girls.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm in the business of doing the right things. So that 12 months down the road I'm going to thank myself.

[A]

I mean it's even when I go to my own story. It's funny, I've struggled with female friendships because they, they don't like the idea that I'm focusing on my career and I'm not giving them the photo opportunities or the girl trips or the things that make them feel better versus what's not only what's best for my career but what fits into the schedule that's, you know, pre booked sadly. But it was really interesting. A friend of mine because I, I worked three jobs when I was in university and I really did not have a great party life, which it was to my, my choosing. I was building third eye insights. I was working in jobs that were going to focus my career and I was hyper focused because I grew up in a poor family that I was not going to be poor, I was gonna be successful. And I used that language. Cause that was the language that I needed to tell myself at that age. I don't speak like that anymore. But to me My biggest fear at 21 was to go back to square bro. And it was interesting. One of the girls that we had hired, her defense for me when I had gotten out of school was like, she sacrificed her 20s in order to set herself up for her 30s. Cause I was really the first one to have a business when I'd come out of school that was like sustaining and had employees. But then it was interesting that that started to turn when it was now I was a status friend. But then my. But what I offered them by status, I wasn't allowing them to use to tokenize, like them to kind of status up. And it's interesting when you talk about, like the sacrifices, like, they saw the sacrifices in my 20s to be what I to celebrate in my 30s versus the sacrifices that we make. I'm not even. I'm not looking to cash out in six months or five years. Like, this is a different. It's a mindset shift you need to undergo for what you want to achieve. And it's not about measuring or getting out that investment. It's about compounding over time.

[B]

It's interesting, probably to the founders, it's a good conversation. Because if you're a marketing professional who supports a founder or you're a founder, There was a quote I had when I was in the military. I was on a base. There was like 300 people there. I was in charge of them. My one buddy I could talk to was the doctor. And I just remember one day having a bad day because of some stuff that went on. And he's like, hey, man, I've been somebody who talks to commanders a lot. He goes like, leadership is lonely. Yeah, right. You can't kind of. You have to deal with it all. You have to worry, but you can't show it to your people. Right. And you see, you internalize it. And I just imagine the founders are out there busy, got a family, got a business, working with substandard contractors, half the time trying to figure out a way out of it so that. That loneliness and sacrifice will help you level up. But every time you level up, you have to improve the circle of people you hang around.

[A]

Yeah. And you have to be prepared for what you don't want to hear, you know, And. But I think that this intro actually perfectly sets up the first two topics I wanted to talk because it's. It's difficult to have a conversation around branding without also discussing the larger factors at play. And I really want the first topic to be the Snow White and the Seven Beasts and what's really interesting is you actually brought this up to me this week and talking about it and I did a bunch of research on it and it's really fascinating because you love the like controversial woke topics. Like Philip literally lives for it. I on the other hand, I'm like there has to be like a true. So what a true reason. But what's fascinating is I felt like it's completely disappeared, you know, like I haven't heard anything about it. So I was like, you know, are we ruffling feathers for the sake of it? But Disney has really suppressed this, like suppressed this because they don't want anyone to talk about it because of how bad it went. And I don't think enough brands understand how real these repercussions are because when it's happening at these like catastrophic huge phases, they're just silencing it and we're not seeing the outcome of the brands that are falling and dying because of these poor decision making.

[B]

I understand where you're tracking with this. This is a case study and if you're in the marketing and branding world you have to study successes and failures. But the companies are kind of suppressing failures in the, in the cliched go woke, go broke. And actually I think a lot of people in the marketing area are trying to hide it even from founders because they don't want it to disrupt what they think is the right way to be. And so you see, incompetent people won't pay attention to external factors that would inform your decision making. They're just blind to it. So they can keep doing what they're doing. But one after another, big companies and medium sized companies are dying because of this kind of misalignment thinking that wokeness will help a business.

[A]

And it's so it's such a complicated conversation because I don't agree with the stance that the individuals took in this larger movie. Like I actually think there's a lot to unpack of like this movie as its own case study to like rip apart and do our thing with it. But separate from that, at its core, when we meet a lot of these small business owners, like they're very good, well intentioned people. And the problem is that your perspective as an individualized human and as a faceless brand and how that needs to be positioned and exist in the market are sadly two very different things. Because when we're dealing with a downturn economy, when we're dealing with saturation, with competition, with a, with technological advancements, with AI that we've never seen before. If your position isn't crystal clear and simple, it's easy to get lost or to become outdated. And it's really problematic because in individuals that are good, people can hire marketing teams and marketing teams can come in and they can talk about their inherent internal biases, but it doesn't track for how the general public buys because we're becoming more and more less interested with individual ideologies and it's hurting brands.

[B]

Well, I just think we're at a point where society has given permission to itself to stop thinking critically, right? And so we kind of live in this world where we can just. We can accept things that are just on their face ridiculous because they're what people think we're supposed to think. And your business or your campaign can't be effective if you're not in an environment where you can actively say anything on your mind about its success or failure. And so we see a lot of Snow White is a perfect example. If anybody would have pitched this to me or any number of intelligent people, we would have said this approach is going to be an absolute failure.

[A]

I think the issue with the Disney movie is that niche ideologies can't scale. Right? Like, there is a large group of people that subscribe to the approach that Snow White tried to take. The problem is that that works within, like, niche communities. Like, if the success benchmark was to, like, have a rally, 65 people come together to, like, watch a play, that would do very well. But they spent 250 million on Snow White.

[B]

300 billion.

[A]

300 billion 300 million. So the stat that I got was 250 million. So anyways, 2, 5300. And they literally didn't clear 40. Do you know what I mean? So it's like, it still made money. It's not scalable because it's too niche. And I think that's a big issue.

[B]

Is that, like, can I jump in? It's storytelling. Like, let me just say that again to all of you out there. It's storytelling. Go and watch the original Snow White again, everybody. It is fantastic storytelling.

[A]

It's simple.

[B]

No, but it's also powerful themes that inspire a culture.

[A]

Yeah, right. Love.

[B]

Love. You know, vanity. Yeah, like the mirror. Like, look at that. That's 1920s, 30s. They're talking about the vanity mirror on the wall.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

But then the woman, although she. She's in a traditional kind of female, but she was actually strong. She stood up to bullies, she ran away, she befriended people who were different than her. The dwarves. Right? She the hunter sacrificed something for her. Like there are some very powerful storytelling themes that exist from generation to generation and then frickin hammerheads. Absolutely. I don't want to say the R word, but stupid human beings get promoted up into something like Disney and destroy a brand. Corrupting the essence of good storytelling. Thinking that you're just going to take like when you're talking about a niche but surface level themes and then they rework the story and don't understand that that's not the same story. It's not compelling. You could make a story with the themes they might want to do. But you don't need to corrupt an old story that's a proven story and then waste and lose $300 million. And that's what people have to realize is you don't need to corrupt old stories that are amazing. If you want to make a new story, make a new story and see if it's as good as the old story. It's their worst movie premiere ever after Dumbo.

[A]

So, okay, so we made 80. We had a correction here from Andrew. It's 86.1. It was the worst. Yeah, it was the worst correction. But the sentiment is that the movie tried to cater to progressive ideals, but it ended up pleasing nobody. And what's actually interesting is that one of the core problems is that Gal Gadot was, is Israeli. So she was pro Israel and the.

[B]

Co actor, no, Snow White, the problem.

[A]

Child was pro Palestine. So it ended up being this geopolitical mess because they both were coming out publicly and then they were in the movie together and then there was no, there was no like middle ground. So it made the, the Jewish community very angry and made the Palestinian community very angry. So it just, it was like. But I think what it boils down to.

[B]

No who they made angry. And let's, let's just get down to it because Forrest Gump said it the best. Stupid is as stupid does. Right? We need to get back to being able to label things as stupid. Peter Dinklage from Game of Thrones, who had the best role for a dwarf in human history, comes out prior to Snow White and says dwarf actors should not play the dwarfs or little people, whatever you want, right? So he's made his millions and the Hollywood people, and a lot of them are like the marketing people, the PR people, the CEOs, who they respond to that. And in the storyline of Snow White, they then cancel having dwarves. But all of the dwarf acting community were so pumped. This is a lifetime role. They get to act especially because the Dwarves are like, grumpy, sleepy, happy. Like, it's such a cool method acting role for any actor, but then to have it as a Dwarf, it's a lifetime thing. And then frickin Dinklage comes out and goes, it's prejudicial to portray Dwarves as Dwarves. And so then they cancel the Dwarves and call it the Magic Beasts. And then the Magic Beast looked like a horror story. They got ripped online and so canceled. That reintroduced the Dwarves, but did it through cgi. And if you go watch Snow White, the CGI Dwarves look like a Chucky movie. Like, they are terrifying, right? And so you have these CGI monsters there. They still kept these beasts in a couple of scenes just to satisfy. I think they met all of the equity boxes in the Magic Beast, but just ruined what was so cool about the Dwarves.

[A]

But I respect your opinion. And although I align with the way that you think, there's a reality that a lot of the themes that exist within this movie are very alive and present right now within the social zeitgeist. And I think that's the. You know, they found the prince to be, like a stalker. She wanted to be more like a feminist. So it was like, it was really about her. There was no prince. There was no.

[B]

They rewrote this prince in, and he did give her a kiss to wake it up. So when you watch the movie, you can see the edits in the movie where they've changed the storyline five or six times. And so when you watch a movie, you can actually see they, like, brought it back in.

[A]

So I was doing all this research, and they're like, yeah, like, she.

[B]

The Originally, she.

[A]

She came out and she's like, the old storyline is boring. It's outdated. It's. The prince is a stalker. It's creepy.

[B]

And I'm like, no, he kissed her without consent. Because when you're asleep, you generally don't have consent.

[A]

But like. Like, I feel like these. This is like, where are we in the world that, like, you get CA for this part and you're like, shitting on the original script.

[B]

That's a proven story for 100 years. It's considered one of the best stories of all time. And when you say it's outdated. What is the best selling category of book in books? Period Bookstores. Yeah, it's no. In bookstores. Romance.

[A]

Yeah, Women's romance.

[B]

So to say it's outdated. To say it's outdated is to be disassociated with reality because you're in a Twitter sphere. And this is what's hurting companies is people are listening to one area of conversation and missing what motivates their client base. That's why this movie is such a failure. It doesn't speak to anybody.

[A]

But that's what I'm saying. I'm saying, like, these. These ideologies of the moment that are listened to in a vacuum can't scale.

[B]

Because that's a good point.

[A]

And that's. That's the, like, that's where you need to just move back to classics. Like, not, not, not like, classic frameworks, which is literally everything that we're saying about with the social media masterclass is like, stop worrying about the Instagram algorithm that was just updated minutes ago. Or like, the headline of the moment, like, chasing these. These momentary opinions are like, they can't scale because they're just. They're also not. They're too independent.

[B]

Humans care about meaning. And this is what we see in cinema. And a lot of storytelling is we're not developing characters anymore. We're trying to just make a formula. We got to have this. We got to have this. We got to speak. We got to give. We gotta speak to this crowd. We gotta speak to. And there's no meaning in the movie. Nobody cares.

[A]

You know what movies, when they did a really good job of redoing them, was like, the 90s and, like, the early 2000s, where they did, like. Like, they would do a rewrite. All these movies that came out when I was younger, yeah, I got. You were modern interpretations of, like, Shakespeare plays. So, like, Sidney White was like a version of Snow White, but it was Amanda Bynes in college, so there's no actual. Like, you kind of found out later it was inspired by the Snow White script. And it was great because she was a soccer player, and she, like, it had all the modern themes, but it wasn't rewriting the story. And there was another one. It was a Shakespeare play.

[B]

Even the Romeo, the one that DiCaprio was in, the Romeo and Juliet story, they did amazing, but that's still, like.

[A]

A really close one. What I'm saying is they gave him a totally different title, but they used the themes from the story so that it was a great story. It was modern. Like, it checked the boxes, but it's not redoing a classic in a way that suits the appearance.

[B]

You don't redo Snow White to be an ultra feminist. What's her name? Aoc. Do you know what I mean? Like, it doesn't work in that context, but you can make a story about an AOC character, you know, if you want to do it, that's compelling. But yeah, you're, you're bang on with, with that. But I always come back to the business owner who's spending good money. I just, I hate that you're wasting money on marketing stuff that doesn't work because they were told in their corrupted university that these things are true that are not true.

[A]

Oh my God, you're using such charged language.

[B]

The university system is, I know, horrific. And we're teaching people not to think.

[A]

A point that you make that I do like, that's worth that you touch on, that I do like is when you, when you say like, it's difficult to place modern ideologies on where people were, where society was at 100, 200, 300 years ago. And I think that's in a really astute point because it's easy to judge people for where they were thinking back then. But that also comes with the growth and realization that we needed to work through as a society. And that's why we're redoing the Snow White story that was written two or three hundred years ago by Brothers Grimm that's already been kind of adapted to be like a Disney friendly movie. Isn't the best thing to completely redo for the, the, the movement of the moment, instead take that framework and redo it to a movie that works today.

[B]

The reason why this matters to me is in the military, you can't afford non merit based performance.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

And, but that creates some of the best teams in the world. Right. But I also think as an entrepreneur, you can't afford non merit based performance because you have bills to pay in government. You got a government job, you can go to as many committee meetings as you like, you're never going to get fired. You can afford to have these feelings. But for the founders that are out there busting their butt to create $5 million, $10 million companies, you can't afford to make a mistake. Your personal net worth is on the line. So Ben and Jerry, Ben's getting interviewed on Piers Morgan and Ben and Jerry's like I used to.

[A]

Has this happened or is it happening?

[B]

It's already happened.

[A]

Oh, cool.

[B]

So I, I know you call me old, but you know, when I was in university, the Grateful Dead will were still touring.

[A]

He's older than me.

[B]

They were still touring. So I, you know, I spent a summer and I went to a bunch of Grateful Dead concerts and it was, I was very much a liberal before I got into the military. And even when I was in the military, I loved. I just love that movement. I love the joy I saw there. And I loved. And I always love Ben and Jerry. They have Cherry Garcia flavor. I believe their corporate approach is authentic. They are kind of hippies who believe in being good people and bring you ice cream. Like, there's nothing about me going into Ben and Jerry's where I'm like, oh, this is garbage. Why are they. I like that it's when corporations adopt fake Personas where they care. That bothers me because it actually just ruins the wealth of the company.

[A]

You nailed it. The problem with this version is that it goes against the original Disney brand. And that is the problem that Disney is currently facing, is it's going against its own version of the story.

[B]

Okay, let me give Disney. Maybe I can sell Disney a new script. Lady and the Tramp or Lady and Lady. You know what I mean? We just have, like. We just make it like one of the dogs is transgender. Like, is that gonna work for lady and the Tramp? It's not gonna work for it. Like, we can't take. Disney was in the business of making amazingly romantic, powerful stories for its audience. If you want to make a new one, do it, but don't corrupt a storyline.

[A]

But they've shown that to be successful, right? Like, Moana is super successful. The other one that happens in New Orleans was a great story, and they've got, like, voodoo in it. It's fantastic. But your point, and I'm so glad you brought up the Ben and Jerry's, because we were talking about it this week. So for those who don't know, Ben and Jerry's is suing Unilever because effectively they've taken their. They were, like, originally two guys from, like, southern Vermont, I think. Don't quote me on that. I should search New Hampshire.

[B]

New Hampshire, Vermont, or Connecticut.

[A]

They moved to New York, and they effectively started selling ice cream in the Hamptons. And because they were in kind of where the money was, people loved this homemade ice cream, and it grew, like, a cult following. And it was, like, out of a truck that they were originally selling the Ben and Jerry's. They are authentically powered by people. They have kind of like those, like, for lack of a better term, more of, like, the hippie roots. And that's why I love what you said, is that you're pro when brands authentically are what they are. And that's all that we're asking to be. But the issue when you look at, like, a Ben and Jerry's Their stance. And a Disney stance is Disney only released the first Snow White movie 40 years ago. Like 50 years ago. The first one, the one that I watched though, when I was a kid. That was the one.

[B]

That was an animation 88 years ago.

[A]

They were super ahead of the curve.

[B]

No, but their animation was amazing. Yeah, same with Bambi. Like all of those things. But Snow White was the first major.

[A]

1937. Because I used. We used to have all the VHS's at home and I would watch the Snow White one all the time. However, you remember the story better than me. Cinderella, I can get you on all day, every day. But Snow White, that is crazy. From 19 Cinderella, also from 1970.

[B]

Snow White was one of the first.

[A]

Wow, that is wicked cool. Okay so even. Okay, so wicked cool. 90 years.

[B]

Yeah, 90 years ago. 90 years ago, that story.

[A]

And this is what they're coming out with again. Gosh, they got like Stanley Cuppet. They should have brought it with a handle.

[B]

No, they're architects of destruction. No, that's what's. That's what's driving this new type of woke identity.

[A]

It's killing brands.

[B]

It's killing brands. They're architects of destruction because these people have never been held accountable for being wrong. Like, who's going to be fired for the decision on Snow White?

[A]

We won't know because they're suppressing.

[B]

They'll suppress it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's. And the people own shit.

[A]

It's not a public beheading, which it like, you know, like there is no. You're right. There is no repercussion. And then it's such a. It's such a big. So insulated in that industry that like, you can make it seem like it was the production heads and not them. You're right. It's a big problem.

[B]

If you watch the Piers Morgan interview of Ben and Jerry. Oh, just Ben, because he's been very kind of like, we stole the land. But now there's been a claim on Barry, Ben and Jerry's headquarters that they're on land. And so Piers was like, are you going to give your headquarters back to the natives? And it became like a very uncomfortable position in the interview.

[A]

It's worth watching.

[B]

He's like, no, we're not going to do that. But we just want to help people. And she just got visibly uncomfortable. It was hilarious.

[A]

But what is the core issue with the lawsuit?

[B]

I don't know what the Unilever lawsuit is that you're talking about.

[A]

That's why they've come up.

[B]

But what's Unilever.

[A]

Unilever is like the huge company that bought them. Unilever is like P and Procter and Gamble. They own everything.

[B]

I thought you were talking Univision. I thought maybe the Spanish network was, like, ruining the names of their ice.

[A]

Cream flavors because of Cherry Garcia. Oh, man. So effectively, Unilever was like, silencing them, being anti Trump and. But. And they're suing Unilever for not being able to exercise their opinion because they got acquired.

[B]

Don't sell. One way not to be canceled is to own your own business.

[A]

Yes, true that. True that. All right, let's move on to the next topic. So the next topic is the death of Forever 21. And ironic name, but yes. Or not Forever 21. So for those who don't know, Forever 21 filed their second bankruptcy notice this week. They have over 800 stores, and they are considered the original fast fashion brand. They were started by a Korean couple that pooled together $11,000 to start the business in 1984. And when they started, fast fashion wasn't a novel trend. They just offered prices cheaper. So what's interesting is they actually brought this kind of Korean, like, the copy paste concept to first the United States. And then they basically aggressively. They aggressively grew. And during their first bankruptcy, Authentic brand groups, The Salters, purchased Forever 21 with Simons and Brookfield. So effectively, the mall landlords and then authentic brand groups, they own everything. They own, like, Aeropostale, they own Hallstore. Like, they own every single basically mall store. So they all came together and they bought Forever 21 effectively as a way to keep a core anchor tenant, because they realize that people, they may not be coming for Forever 21, but Forever 21 is a reason that they'll go shop at the other stores because it's such a big anchor tenant. So they don't want a big anchor tenant to be, like, going bankrupt because it makes. It kind of makes the populace like the mall is dying. So the ball, the malls basically saved it the first time. And then what they did is they came in and they partnered with Shein because what's killing the fast fashion is that Shein and Temu can just move faster at a better rate to give the consumer what they want for cheaper.

[B]

And if you know your sizes.

[A]

No. And. And so they partnered with Shein as a way to like, to save it. But effectively, when authentic brand groups bought the brand, they kind of just like, turned it into, like, a sheen liquidator. Like, they lost their brand or their novel concept. So it didn't work well because you.

[B]

Can go online and see more. Like there has to be a reason to go into a store. Like if you can see more online like on your chair, why would you go into a store?

[A]

Well, I think what's really interesting about the North American mall concept is that we're expecting too much of brands that have a short shelf life. Like the average store that's in the mall is truly to undercut prices. Like think about the average. Like the majority of malls in America are not built by the hottest store of the moment. Right. Like it's kind of built by these like older, cheaper, like Claire's or Colonel's Popcorn. Like it's not the, it's not suit supplies. Right. Like it's not the brands that we're like buying from right now. It's these like more traditional retailers. And if those consumers are only looking for price point, you can get it direct from China now straight to your door. So why would you go and be around 14 year olds that are just like doing laps around the mall with.

[B]

Their sweatpants on and the, the mall model. For me, the mall was a gathering place for young people.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And an excursion for families. And it was developed during a time where having all of these stores together was very convenient for a family. And because there wasn't anywhere else to buy, you could not buy online.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So either go to a Kmart at a plaza or you could go to a mall.

[A]

Go to the mall.

[B]

You can go to a mall that has like a Target associate attached to it and there's all these other stores. Like it became a thing. But what I'm thinking in the fast paced world is that the investment into the brick and mortar is too much for as you say, these companies that don't have longevity. Like if you were to ask me, and you may have some points on it, but people need a place to go to still have that social outing. To me, a mall should almost be almost all pop ups where you could expose people to new brands that they could then go and buy online or create social media moments. So like kids can go to a mall, but if every month the stores are changing with different things, people would go because they want to see what's new, what's going on 100%.

[A]

No, that's, that's exactly where I wanted to go is one. Malls need a rebrand because they don't have the experience factor. And it's a sad reality. I mean I tracked this years ago. Not happy about it, but being real. I hated going To a mall to get changed out of the clothes that I'm wearing, to like have to try things on, have to wait in line to try things on, hope that they have my size like online made it so much better and easier. I could like look at models, assume what I would like, have it shipped directly to my house, try it on in the comfort of my home. And then what I didn't like, there was a return label put in the box and I could send it back. It's not good for the environment, but because it was easier, it's what a lot of people did to be able to consume. Especially after Covid. Right. Like we were driven to learn how to consume from home. It's hard to go back to an inconvenient model.

[B]

People want to make money the way it was made in the past. And then once you get big corporation like they're not being innovative, they're not. And they're not using tech. Like to me, yeah. Lululemon had a mirror to work out with. Okay, interesting. I always wondered why you couldn't go into a store and just one time change into like a bodysuit, be scanned, try all the things on be scanned and then come out and they show you in the most fabulous outfits in the world. Right? Like you just you. Because you can scan a body, know every measurement now perfectly get a version.

[A]

Of this in Clueless. And I wanted it since the day I saw that.

[B]

But how come that hasn't like that should so bad. But that would be so easy, right? And then so but you're taking tech and you're giving people tech they don't have at home so they can have a better experience.

[A]

Okay, what you're saying is like, like absolutely. But that has not come yet. What we've even seen in Korea was exactly what you're saying. So it's really interesting. The Korean shopping experience is to me the only way that the North American malls are going to survive. And it's that they one, they do shorter lease terms. So a huge thing that's killing malls is that the mall owner is. They're quantifying based on lease terms and lease renewals for value of property, the property owners for the malls and the mall tenants aren't having the same conversation. So we're basically locking in people for.

[B]

These leases because they're owned by a real estate investment trust, REITs, and they forecast their sale price, their rate of returns based on long term leases. So that model of ownership is actually killing the long term survivability of Malls. Well, that's why, that's a good point actually.

[A]

And the same thing with the Bay. Like the bay has been an iconic Canadian Hudson Bay. Hudson's Bay has been a Canadian iconic retailer since like, I don't know, 18 something. And they like, same thing, you know, they, they filed for bankruptcy. They were saved because the Cadillac Fair reviews, et cetera. Like, they, they. Nordstrom has died, Target has died in Canada. Like these malls can't be losing these three story anchor tenants because it's what drives in business for the remainder of the stores. Like nobody's going to the mall for kernels. Right? Like people are going to the mall for the Nordstrom and then they'll stop in at Bed Bath and be. So like they need to have, they need to have all the kind of the anchor tenants that bring in the smaller business. But so on one hand it's the lease terms. The second is that there is no innovation or experience. When the malls were the best is when like Abercrombie was thriving because it was sensory, it stunk like cologne. You had naked men at the front door, like walking you in. We had rainforest cafes in the mall where you would see animals make noise.

[B]

Just, just coming to mind. But this should be a business, this should be on business tv. But food courts, prior to Ubereats, food courts were something that was very unique.

[A]

Sample food.

[B]

Like there was a combination of like 20 different offerings all in one spot.

[A]

You should sell like tickets so you can get like mini samples for all of them. Opposed to like having to stand in line at Manchu Walk. Like, yeah, it's so outdated.

[B]

But that food court now is. Nobody cares now because they can order anything off of Uber eats.

[A]

Unless you're 14 and you're with your friends. You know, that's like. No. And that's, that is the core in Korea. So they've got shorter lease terms. They are hyper focused on experience. So there's not, it's not filled with inventory, it's filled with technology. Things to take photos of, things to do. So like they have a lot of like experiential state, like stations where you can feel things, where you can smell things. They'll have photo booths. They make the mall an experience that's actually worth going to. And their malls are packed, like, packed. And they're the one mall we went.

[B]

Into because that's where you find the trends.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know what I mean? Like, like there's a draw to go there to see things.

[A]

It's also a culture that's like hyper Focused around like spending money. But. But the mall is, I kid you not, 12 stories like this mall. I've never seen anything like it. Like this was not the Eden Center. Like it wasn't a three story mall. This was a 12 story, two building mall. There's a totally different entrance for the luxury section. There's another one for the regular. They had an aquarium. They have like a zoo. But this is like a normal mall. This was like Mall 1 of 17 in Seoul.

[B]

It was the biggest one in Seoul.

[A]

But no, but it was like no. All the malls are big, but they weren't.

[B]

Yeah, okay, fair enough. What they're not doing in North America, it's like people who are in charge of mannequin set up 30 years ago are still doing it. No, literally, like what is with.

[A]

They just made the mannequins body positive. But it's the same mannequin.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. That's all they've done. Whereas when you go into the Asian malls, like the tech, the design of.

[A]

The storefront, they didn't really have mannequins. Yeah, like it was art.

[B]

It was like it was an art installation. And all the. So when you went to this destination, the company had invested in making the experience better by almost making it like an art gallery of brands.

[A]

No, wait, that's such a great way.

[B]

Of saying it's an art gallery of brands.

[A]

But the other thing too that I really liked with us being in Korea multiple times, you will go back and the mall looks completely different because the tenants have changed. So they'll go in for three to six months to have a mall store. They'll have a range of skus. People can get to know the brand, they can try the brand. And the brand either continues to exist. Exist and does something different, or the brand, it's. They're kind of like stars, you know, like they, they open, they expand, they create this brand, they sell product, they generate hype and then they like fold and then they basically take the investment that they had and then they'll create another concept and then that concept will do well and it will expand and then it will fall.

[B]

And you know what we should do? Hopefully I'm not interrupting you. You know how we. We're always talking about activations, you know, and in the mall there'd just be like one spot where they might have a fashion show or some cheesy like we should create kind of competition and activations in the malls by having these shorter term leases, but make it a center of constant activations. Trying to outperform each other for attention. You know what I mean? Like almost a buskers kind of.

[A]

That's literally what Korea does is they're trying to outperform each other for attention. So they all do these, but they're not activations that are grossly expensive. They're just like well executed. So they'll go in for six months and it's like strawberry themed. So they've like three flavors of lip gloss that are strawberry. And like they'll have a big strawberry there that you can take photos of and they'll have like strawberry bubbles like coming from the ceiling. And it just, it's a moment. But then what I found really interesting is that everything is very well executed but their focus isn't, isn't to generate increased revenue perpetually forever. And I think that's a relevant conversation to have with the North American model is that Forever 21 was great when it was great and then it became an outdated concept. And that's okay, right? Like they should have sold the brand or closed the brand. Take that revenue and move into the next model. And that's why I just, I. People are on pretty little things because they've rebranded into this more like this fast fashion but for an old money aesthetic. And people don't realize like you can't stay what you were anymore for the next 15 years when there's something trendy to your concept. Like Forever 21 opened as the first fast fashion retailer in 1984. Fast fashion has changed a hell of a lot in 2024, 2025 as we're speaking right now. So it can't be what it was unless it innovates or changes. And it didn't change.

[B]

I'm just still on the mall perspective. Like when I'm thinking from. But when I'm thinking from a business plan as a. If I was in charge of a brand like do I want a brick and mortar on a five year or a ten year lease? But it would be nice if there was kind of like what they did with. And I had thought of this idea but when with Ubereats that now you have those hidden kitchens where now you're ordering. Right. That's brilliant. Right? But not the same. But as a brand it should be okay. I need to rent a space in, in the right malls for two months a year to do like and then, and then court the customers that I get the exposure I get there with sales online after. Because that's where most sales happen is online. It's not in the brick and Mortar, the brick and mortar is to provide the experience to bring more people into your tribe, to showcase it. That would be a model that would make more sense to businesses. I'll rent them all. I'll rent it for two months and then, you know. But nobody wants to get in a 5, 10 year lease.

[A]

No. And it's where it, it's where it, it's where this has to go because it's no longer good enough. I actually quite like learning about a brand in person, you know, like touching it, getting that brand experience, getting that in real life feel. But to your credit, like it's not enough to just become an anchor tenant, to just have your inventory laid out and just hope you're going to survive for the next 10 years. Like the mall experience has to change and there's a demand. It's really interesting because one of our clients is a very well known and big entertainment space. Let's just say it's better than bowling. And I use that statement because there really is a shortage of family approved things to do outside of the home that have changed, you know, and that's kind of the shortage is that a lot of these things that were big 15 years ago, they really haven't innovated. Like we don't have an, we don't have a surplus of innovation. And the malls are a right place. Like it has to change because it's, it's outdated. And if you just had these stores that could rotate, I'd be so much more inclined to go out and spend money I'm not prepared to spend. Because your roster of stores is rotating like Canada Goose. It makes like, why do you have a store in the mall in June? Like you're a winter jacket retailer and you know that they're like, they make all of their money from November to February because they don't go on sale. And they have to make money during those months to justify during the off months.

[B]

But there are summer brands and there are fall brands and there are spring brands. Yeah, like that's actually quite smart.

[A]

I only go to the mall usually during Christmas. That to me is because it's like they deck up the mall and it's like I'm buying.

[B]

But if the mall was the place to go, kind of like the preseason fashion show, because you had the flexibility to move tenants quickly, you would go to kind of see what are people doing.

[A]

Imagine if they created a fashion show, like a quarterly that would do so well. Think about if it was like open to the public and they would have lives so like, they would have the product that's coming down the Runway for lives, and each of these stores would have like, lives. Live shopping is where it's going. The only reason why we're not doubling down and talking about that right now is TikTok changed the live feature for us individuals. Like, they removed it and we don't really. They Trump extended the ban, but we don't know what's happening. Canada, Canadians have the live, Americans don't.

[B]

Gary Vee's still talking about it, but.

[A]

Because it's going to come back, it's like the most effective way because we're not going back. That's the whole thing is like, people are just gonna hoping that we're gonna go back. Like, we now live in the age of Amazon. We're not going back.

[B]

When we're talking about innovation, you know what interests me? I always want to bring it back to the business owners. People want experience. So whatever you're doing in your business, provide experience. Like provide sensory. Provide experience. It's not just the deliverable of a fungible, like you have to provide an experience, but in terms of lack of innovation. You know, like those arcades, the buskers or whatever, or those places that families can go to have fun playing all those games. Think of how badly they've innovated. Like the hunting game with the shotgun.

[A]

They haven't innovated.

[B]

It's the same plastic. Like there is. Think of how good you could make those environments right now. Like, a few places have put VR kind of things in there, but most of the games in there are the same as 50 years ago, 40 years ago. We're not using tech properly to create experience.

[A]

Like when you think about those summer fairs that come into town, like, for us, it's the Canadian exhibition. It's a big deal. And we went like a few years ago, and you were like, I'm embarrassed to say that not a single one of these games have changed since when I came here the first time when I was six years old. And then I kind of thought about it too and I'm like, okay, so despite me scoffing whack a mole making that comment, they also haven't changed since I was a child. And it's actually interesting. It's. I feel a. There's like retro, where things have a vibe and then there's things where we get annoyed to resistance to innovation because it wasn't good enough. So it's not like they've innovated. And then they brought back for the hundred Year like all the old games, like that would be cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But to just roll out the same set of games every single year for over 100 years.

[B]

Finding a way to make the prizes cheaper.

[A]

Finding ways like the prizes are shittier. It costs more money to go. You leave with your family. I spent 300 bucks and my kid got a stuffed away for 15 cents. It's not good enough.

[B]

Can I interrupt this Art of the Brand podcast for a legal moment? Just so you're aware, the one reason why I don't go on the rides at amusement parks anywhere in North America is the corporate structure of an amusement park. The smaller ones, Disney is fine. The bigger ones are fine. Is that every ride? I bet you didn't know. This is its own corporation. So every ride is its own corporation that gets a percentage of ticket sales. And the maintenance budgets on these places aren't amazing. Like the smaller ones, the medium sized ones or the traveling ones, they're often populated by people who have records or something like that. But if you get injured on one of those rides, you sue the corporation of that ride. So you can't get the money. They're designed to be bankrupt. So for people, this is where working with some of the trial lawyers around the nation, it's actually a big problem when you go there. And so you need to know, when you go into these amusement parks, do they have general insurance?

[A]

How do you find that out?

[B]

I don't know how you find it out, but I know the bigger ones are fine, but the smaller ones often.

[A]

But do you mean like the bigger ones? Like the, the X?

[B]

Yeah, like the X. Disney World.

[A]

But like the ones in your life.

[B]

In your ones that travel and come back, like, they're all individual corporations.

[A]

Oh my gosh.

[B]

So when you sue them, you might not get anything if, if their maintenance results in you losing an arm or dying.

[A]

Yeah, because there's always like every few years a kid dies in the Jimmy Neutron ride or something.

[B]

Just a little extra to give to our audience.

[A]

Brought to you by the rogue lawyer. These brands need to innovate in order to survive. And it's no longer enough to just be complacent. And if you're trying to figure out what is your so what is someone that's smaller? Invest in experience. It's never going to bite you in the butt. In fact, Ash, before we move on, one of our team members was just in Miami for a bachelorette this last weekend and went to the Unwell Alex Cooper event in Miami. And her, she was like, you got to talk about it today on the podcast because it was so well executed and they basically were selling tickets for $20 a person, but it was unlimited food, unlimited drinks, tons of swag. So it was not an event they were making money at. They just had to sell tickets for the sake of it. And she was so impressed by how well it was done. And it wasn't for influencers. It was just for, like, regular people to engage with the brand. And I have my own thoughts on it for where it went, but it just shows you, like, there's. People are so sick of being ignored like the average person because it's been such an influencer, like celebrated and led society that just investing in experience and your people and your tribe, it. It pays off in ways that might be difficult to measure because I don't believe that she posts about it. But she's. She and all those girls are lifelong evangelists. They spoke so well to me and probably everyone else. And it will drive sales indirectly. That can't be measured.

[B]

What I would say, two businesses who are being told that they have to pay for influencers to get effects. You know, there's obviously some influencers aren't providing the rate of return anymore. But think of the word influencer and then find influencers in your community or in your target market that aren't influencers but are people that carry influence. Like, I was just thinking, like, if you're a local hardware store, like, find a good story in the local news, find somebody who's influencing the community and then go do something special for them or invite them in or celebrate it. But think creativity creatively.

[A]

Well, listen to this video because you're. You're bang on. So listen to this. I knew that I had cancer before I was diagnosed because of my aura ring. So effectively, this woman finds out that she has cancer before her doctors tell her because of her aura ring.

[B]

Is there. I have an aura ring? I don't have that.

[A]

No, no, I'll tell you.

[B]

You have cancer. You don't have cancer. Okay, I'm going to check it right now.

[A]

Basically, it was like every night. Her Recovery was like 30 and like her heart rate was super high. And there was indicators without the oura ring being like, you've got cancer. It was that her body was going through something.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And this video has done, like, millions in views. It has over 3,000 comments. It has 7,000 saves, and it's resulted in so much organic business for Oura Ring. And it just shows you that the power of authentic ugc and it's so many brands are looking to cut corners and to pay for someone to help them sell. And that's what's, that's what's creating this influencer problem is that these business owners, it's so funny. It's like we can give them a ton of great ideas. Like yeah, but where's that easier? One where I don't have to do anything and doesn't really cost me a lot of money, but it results in a ton of sales and it, that just, it doesn't exist in we're too educated like as a populace and as a society. And that post which is authentic, low budget and very well done resulted in not only a massive spike in sales for Oura ring, but an intangible increased sentiment. Like think about all those million people if they all tell three people or four people about that video because like what is. Think about the best thing that you can do. Find out you have cancer before the doctor does. Like that is like for $8 a month. That is like what we're all looking to be able to buy.

[B]

Well, it just annoys me. So my oura ring is out of battery so now I gotta go get charged so I can see if I'm okay. But why this is, this is just a segue. Like the Apple watch and the Oura ring should be shared with your family doctor electronically so it can track those measurables and have an AI monitoring them all the time so that you can, you know, think of how many lives would be saved.

[A]

I disagree because there's. The problem is, is that everyone that's going to medical school wants to inject filler and Botox because they make way more money than being a family doctor. I think actually the adult.

[B]

I'd rather have an AI doctor.

[A]

Yeah, I'd rather have an AI doctor. Your own avatar avatar that you can pay for per month and all of these different indicators tap into it.

[B]

I actually worked with our good friend Robert Barrett, Dr. Rum and the study they did on Dr. Avatars is that they're proven to be more accurate in diagnostics so they diagnose the right ailment faster like 56% of the time over a family doctor. And they're rated two times more empathetic than a human doctor. So engaging with a human.

[A]

Blame them like their, their rosters are. They're so stacked. There's such a shortage and we like.

[B]

So we should have AI doctors. AI avatar doctors where this is speaking to our medical records that are electronically stored and AI is Looking at what's happening, it's looking at all of our stuff. And then that would be way better and cheaper. That would save the healthcare crisis problem.

[A]

I know. I mean, I feel like we're close to getting there with.

[B]

If anybody's building that business out there, we can come and brand that and crush it for you.

[A]

I hope they're listening. That'd be great. But to your point, on, like the influencers, like, that is worth in, like, it's, it's invaluable what that video is worth for that brand relationship in the customer's mind. And how do you get someone to do that other than offering a great product and letting like the randomness for it impacting people's lives and like, that's the intangible piece that people need to look into. It was interesting. I read. What book was it? Good Energy is what I read. And she talked about how, like, it is like, effectively, like professional malpractice to not be tracking your sleep if you're a professional. Because if you're operating off of four or five hours of sleep and you don't know it, you're just hurting yourself long term and it really costs next to nothing. Like, it's really a work expense for you to be tracking your recovery and how you're doing. And it just, I feel like all of these messages are starting to compound in a way that's helping wearable tech because it's just, it's a good product and it's easy and it checks all those boxes. Now if your business, your product, it changes people's lives. How can you get it organically in more people's hands so that those stories can manifest and they can be captured and they can be. Because that just came out of someone going through the experience because now she caught her cancer earlier and she got her treatment and she's doing good.

[B]

That good energy is an interesting theme. Not where you went down, but in the context of your business. Don't judge an influencer just by follower count. Like, find good energy. Like, create good energy. Find other people with good energy and bring them into your tribe and try and influence, influence your environment through good energy.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, good energy is all that you should be seeking. All right, so I went to this Pilates experience and I left feeling like I have to talk about it with you because I didn't expect the experience to be as transformative as it was. So we did this Pilates studio in Toronto. It's called lsdr and it. The Pilates studio Isn't they're doing a great job. Shout out to ldr, if you're in Toronto, please check out the studio. But it's actually a trend that's happening in Pilates right now in New York, Louisiana and Vancouver. And this is just the first studio to implement this technology. And effectively, it's not Stott Pilates. It's. It's more extreme, but it's not at the solid core level. It's got that more like aggressive reformer Pilates. They've nailed the brand, but the core difference is that they're getting you to wear headphones so there's no sound outside in the room, so they're not playing music like a traditional workout class. It's all going through your headphones. And what makes it fantastic is that they've paired the instructor's voice with the music so that the experience is very synergistic in your ears. And why that's interesting is because in the typical Pilates experience, they have speakers that are throughout the studio, and then they have a voice that's speaking out on top of it, and it makes the music kind of tinny, kind of echoey. It's just. It's not as good of an experience. And for a very minimal investment, like, they're. They're headphones that you just wipe down at the end of the class and the next person uses them. Because you're not like hardcore sweating. It's a Pilates workout. You're able to completely transform the experience.

[B]

I agree with you because we had a great phrase back in the day. The worst answer to why do we do it this way? Is because we always did it that way. Right? And this happens too often in business. So when you're looking at your business, push the boundaries just because it wasn't done that way. Because we all see headphones as private time or in our office. And I think the assumption before was, I'm not going to go to a group class to put headphones on. It defeats the purpose. But that's linear thinking. Because when you actually look at the experience of Pilates, especially when I'm going there as a new guy who doesn't want to look like an idiot, my brain is hyper focused on trying to do things right. And I've experienced many, many times where I'm trying to hear what the instructor is saying, but I got like, cool beat music and then I'm looking around, and it made the experience less good for me because my brain is trying to focus and I can't hear the instructions you put the headphones on, and I know I'm in a community. I can see them in the mirrors, but I can hear the instruction perfectly. But I still have the beat. Like it was just a completely different Zen experience that will bring me back. But I bet you a bunch of people just laughed at the idea of putting it on there because they weren't thinking in that second and third order thinking that you're so good at. Because I know where you're going next with this, why it's good from a business perspective.

[A]

Yes. Well, so when I first, I didn't. My team is obsessed with the studio, so I went based on their recommendation. Actually, they were obsessed with their socials because we're opening another club. And they were so impressed with their socials that they were using it as inspo. And I had no idea going into it. And when I first saw it, I passed judgment because I thought that they were doing something extra that was unnecessary. However, I loved it in the end because it felt more intimate. But I wasn't alone. Right. So what's cool about when you're working out with a group is that you don't quit sooner. You know, you don't. You. You hold that pose longer, like you're getting that kind of. That social pressure. But there was an intimacy, because you're right. I could hear what she was saying and the music was. It really elevated all of it. But what I was thinking more than that is if and when we're faced again with another pandemic, I'm already primed to the experience being in my headphones, that I would be more inclined to purchase the at home membership or the travel membership because it doesn't deviate in the same way that it does at Barry's, where it's blaring and it's screaming at you and you're running on the treadmill. And I can't get that experience at home. It feels pared down. But it's half there based on how they're doing it now.

[B]

No, and it's. It's a great way to add revenue because you can say to your Pilates class, the people who can afford a reformer, you know that you can now buy a reformer at a profit margin that comes with headphones.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then you can just do the classes, live with the instructors from home. Like, it's beautiful. That's why you're thinking it's so good. As a consultant, like, I. I don't think they're offering the selling of the. They're not of the reformers area. But this is something that they should consider.

[A]

Yes, well, that's all I was thinking. Cuz I was like, man, like I can get this in the basement. I can like put it on my iPad. The other thing too I loved is it. It sadly was no longer about the instructor, which I'm there for. You know, I'm saying sadly because I know the instructors, like they live for it, they love to teach. But like I actually don't even need an instructor there. Like they could have an avatar that's like in the mirror on the back who we could bring in like celebrity voices. It could be like Gwyneth Paltrow's teacher.

[B]

Could do a live at 9 o'clock across all of them. Because it's here and you're not busy trying to check out the instructor there. Cause you're trying to hold a fricking pose. That's excruciating.

[A]

The way that they're doing it too, which is cool, is they've constructed the room so it's effectively like a hallway. So instead of them. So it's just like one bed each in the room. Like how Solidcore does it, right? And the instructor is just kind of like walking back in front. But because I'm like looking at myself in the mirror or in the mirror that way or I'm in the zone. Because that's why like the iPad kid thing is such a thing. Because you're so engulfed in like how good the sound is for your brain that it puts me at rest. I'm doing something. I'm not looking at the clock, I'm not missing my phone.

[B]

I guarantee you could have a camera on each reformer and have an AI looking at it. And you could get live adjustments.

[A]

Much prefer that you get a live adjustment there. Like you should be focusing more forward.

[B]

On your knee is over your ankle here.

[A]

Like especially in Pilates, right? Because you can get a lot of like knee injuries.

[B]

But an AI could do that. That's calibrated like a video calibration.

[A]

Where it's going and it's where it should be going. And that is. So find ways that you can add the proverbial headphones to your experience. Because what is the cost? $120 a reformer bed. Like Max. Because they're not branded, they're not like they're. You're not putting on like the Apple headphones. You're putting. They're, they've, they've got good sound. But that's also like your sister showed up by the Way with this thing that looked just like an Apple Watch. Identical to an Apple Watch. Acts like an Apple Watch. Like, even when you, like, scroll it, it has like all the little circles. It has like the heart rate. Man, they've even copied the UI UX of it. $30 on Amazon. It connects to her messages. It has all of the same apps, literally. Other than it being the exact same font as an Apple Watch and having the exact same charger. It also stays alive for three weeks. I'm just. We're in such a crazy world. That technology is moving so fast that it's not your tech that's proprietary. You have to add something more to go back to. The experience point is that it's. It's no longer the ability to have, you know, the best tech watch because, like, that's pretty easy to knock off at $30.

[B]

Yeah. Who will be smart in the future?

[A]

It's experience.

[B]

The person who pays for the $31 or the.

[A]

Well, I mean, if I knew, you know, like, get that for my mom.

[B]

All right, let's talk hot or not.

[A]

Hot or not. Oh, my gosh.

[B]

Okay, we're getting a few sent from our listeners too, every week, which is really. We appreciate it.

[A]

Yeah, send them in, guys. Okay, we're starting with my favorite kegs for pregs. The Kylie, Kelsey and Liquid Death collaboration. I think it's a total hot. I'm obsessed with it. Do you not agree?

[B]

I think that should win a marketing award. No. And there's so many layers to why that's spectacular. First of all, we talked about before, you're taking the piss out of yourself. So you're making an entertaining. Hasn't been done before. Pregnant people in a bar. Right. Also, the kind of proverbial person who wants to judge you about to call you, like, how dare you. Da da da da. I love that they've branded it to look like either an energy drink or a beer to me. That's so much cooler than a crappy non alcoholic beer commercial. Right? Like that Liquid Death pepperoni Ferrari from last week. Yeah, yeah. That makes me actually want to drink Liquid Death when I go out. Like, literally if I go to a club and I. And I don't want to drink any like. Or I'm not drinking, like, that's what I want to drink. I hope they have it in sparkling because the can looks cool. The can looks cool. The vibe they just did is cool. And. And they weren't afraid to target a very visible niche market that has been ostracized from the Element of fun. And it's beautiful.

[A]

I don't think they're targeting niche audience. I think that the biggest trend right now is not drinking. With all these coffee clubs and these coffee parties popping up. And think about most people, to get someone's attention to the end is very rare. So if you show kegs for pregs, it instantly tells your brain they're not drinking. Right. So if you just saw a clip of it, it's a very simple takeaway of Liquid Death is water they're playing on pregnant women. Liquid Death, yes.

[B]

Like the name, like everything is counterintuitive, but it's beautiful branding. I don't. I'd love to know what the marketing company is behind this. Who owns it?

[A]

Liquid Death kills it.

[B]

Liquid Death's campaigns are spearheaded by founder and CEO Mike Cesario, a former creative director who's known for his unique and often irreverent approach to marketing. Meaning he's not scared to insult or upset people. Aiming to disrupt the beverage industry with a focus on humor and a rebellious. He was a former creative director of Netflix.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And left. So that's a founder driven marketing campaign. And that's why I wanted to know who is doing it. Because an agency wouldn't do that. Right. An agency is populated by useless. By business graduates who are all drinking the Kool Aid and citing the message. Like I could tell that's. And that's why it's so good. So as a founder, don't restrict yourself. Like irreverent marketing, disruptive marketing. Marketing so good that that's. That's one of the best ones I've seen. I loved it.

[A]

Oh, you're right. That's actually. That's actually a super important core takeaway. Is that the reason why Liquid Death is killing it is because it's founder driven and that's what founders want to outsource. They get focused on the things that they're not the best at. And it's what kills their brand's potential is you have to be involved in the creative direction. You can like outsource the production of it. You can outsource, like the talent hiring. You can get additional support, but you have to be involved. Jack me. Is that mo. I got like blasted on the Internet for it.

[B]

Oh. Oh. Because you called it Jack me.

[A]

But we like. We like.

[B]

But I always made fun of it because I thought it was. It sounded like fuck me like Zach me. Like we say that fuck me like Jack me.

[A]

I actually think that this is an intentional. This is an intentional move. As part of these brands that get into the cult status is that they make the name different than the way that you would phonetically pronounce it.

[B]

So it can be a point of conversation.

[A]

So it can be a point of conversation.

[B]

You get corrected.

[A]

You get corrected. You're not in the in crowd. You seem like you're lesser than. And because it started with true French words like Hermes, right. Like that was hard for an English speaking person to come up with.

[B]

But then.

[A]

But they've now taken it. Or Versace, they've now taken it to the next level. It's same thing. There's another brand. You would pronounce it as Loewe, like O, L, O, E, W, E. But.

[B]

They'Re pronouncing as Loewe and just deliberately make your name.

[A]

They're deliberately fucking it up. They're just like, oh, you think it's this, you peasant, it's this.

[B]

But it's not us who deliberately made you make it wrong.

[A]

Yeah, but I actually think it's an intentional.

[B]

Like that it'll wear off, that kind of thing. But it does work. It does work in some cases.

[A]

I think the reason why it works though is because the average has entered into the luxury conversation for the first time. Because you can buy things off of AliExpress and Temu, you can have an opinion on things that you were once restricted to. So these French names were originally restricted to the upper European class and then it was to those people who could travel to Europe. So it became exotic to come back with a Louis Vuitton, you know, because you're from New York and that shows you that you had culture in class. But now because the average person can buy into it, it's actually a way to help that person, that person that wouldn't otherwise be a consumer of theirs, feel like they're a part of that tribe.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

So the question is, do I pronounce it correctly? For their Hot or Not? For this week on the Hot or Not. So Jacquemou did a collaboration with Air France. So they're basically for passengers on Air France. They've come up with branded pajamas that are going to be on the se and Zuckmo is the brand of kind of the moment. So it's kind of an interesting collaboration as a way to make Air France passengers or like to drive brand value for the Air France passengers. I think this is a super hot move. I love that they did this.

[B]

It's just, it's an easy collab, you know, it doesn't show really Any much creativity, like they can use the colors. But airline air travel, like you get that, you get that, that kit when you're in first class. Right, but, but what do I associate with what's in that kit? It's convenient, but it's throwaway.

[A]

Here's where I disagree. When I get on the plane and I see that Air Canada has done a collaboration with Tumi, I want it to be great because I feel like I've earned a brand to care about how much money I've spent in first class and I want that package to be great. It's always cotton frickin swabs, the worst socks in mouthwash. What I love about this is that that makes me brand loyal to Air France and it makes me actually want to keep the shirt that's on my chair from. That's Zakmu. Because I feel like I've been. This is where we're talking about like the. This isn't a.

[B]

No. If they only have, if they only have that shirt. Shirt. The only way to get that shirt is through first class.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Then it'd be amazing. Yeah, because people would wear it. No, because like, but if they're selling it in their store. No, no, I'm saying if I can buy it on the online store. The same shirt. Because.

[A]

No, no, this is for the Air France travel passengers.

[B]

I'm saying like if you can only get it there, then it becomes, then you can kind of wear it and people are like, you're kind of subtly bragging. Right. I was on, on first time.

[A]

That's what I love about it is I actually think it's a really cool move because it drives pride for Air France and for like, and for being a French brand. Because that's what the European brands did very well. Like you talk about this quite a lot with me. Like what was so cool when you were in the army is that the different fashion designers designed the different military uniforms. And it's like such a sense of pride to connect the designer with its.

[B]

France wasn't known for its fighting capability, but they had the best uniforms designed by Jean Paul Gaultier.

[A]

They look sharp.

[B]

They look, they, they look, they look great in those tight fitting combat pants that you couldn't crawl into a window through. But your butt looked good. The, it kind of reminds me a little bit of, you know, the Four Seasons robes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That some people may or may not take. You know what I mean?

[A]

They may or may not get charged for it.

[B]

That look good. But I was just saying like it's Good. If it's a signaler that you were in there and it's high level, it's just a question of, of how much are you going to pay. But the problem is these clothes, their costs are so low compared to what they sell for that if they had kind of a confidentiality agreement to give them to those passengers at the cost, people would think they're getting something worth 500 bucks. It really only cost them 20 bucks and would treat it as so.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it'd be a good branding ambassador.

[A]

I completely agree. Let's move on to the next one. So the next one was this went crazy on the Internet. So the Ordinary, which is actually originally in a Canadian company, they sell high quality skin care at a reasonable margin. So they're famous for having what we would know as like cheap skin care because they're just not selling it at like, like skincare has beauty, astronomical margins. So you can get the same lactic acid as let's say drunk elephant and it's 7,75 instead of, of $70. So the stunt that they did this week is that they're actually selling eggs at the price point that they should be sold at at $3.37. And they've completely branded all of the eggs as the ordinary eggs. And they only did this in New York City as a way to say that people shouldn't be paying these astronomically inflated prices for ordinary goods. And it did crazy well online. Other than the vegans. The vegans are pissed off that the ordinary picked the eggs to price, but it's an ordinary staple. What are your thoughts?

[B]

Vegans don't matter anymore. Like the trend against vegans like health is now in eating animal based.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In properly treated animals. Right. Just based on. So their influence time is gone. I'm sorry to say. I just, I get what they're saying. You know, I think things like eggs should probably cost more if they're raised. Well, I think people get used to a price point because there was factory farms that allowed them to be cheap. And then once you start treating animals properly, it gets expensive. People like, oh, I don't want to spend more for eggs. But so there's that, that argument there. Whereas in beauty products you can break down like what makes something a hundred dollars, the ingredients in that beauty product is not worth a hundred dollars.

[A]

No, it's their store on 35 cents.

[B]

When you actually look at the ingredients, the money might come from the research. So we want to be able to protect people's ability to do the research. But what happens is China looks at any successful breeding product, puts it in a lab, copies it and puts it out there. How do you protect that value? But I think in terms of capturing a zeitgeist in New York, that's a brilliant move. You know, I would not have thought of eggs, but they seem to be in tune with that New York customer. What's going on there? And so it probably had a very. A very good response. A very good response. Although I think their brand is like, we're as good as the others. So, like, it seems like they're going the other way and saying eggs shouldn't be expensive, or maybe they should be, but their products are. I don't get that connection. Whereas why they're 10 bucks and somebody's $100, but eggs should stay at 3.99. I'm giving it a. Not because they're. Their. Their branding position is we provide you with high quality things that are at.

[A]

The price, it should cost at the.

[B]

Price that it is to us right now. It doesn't factor at the price.

[A]

It should cost, cost. That's their approach, is that if they.

[B]

Did the research, but if their beauty products are essentially the same as other people who had labs, you know what I mean, to develop the best formulas. Because it takes a while to launch a product.

[A]

Their stance isn't that they've ripped off the drunk elephant formula. Like, there's a reality.

[B]

How do they get their formula then?

[A]

Because their formulas aren't based on. So what a lot of these skin care companies are doing is they're. They're trying to create these, like, elixirs or potions. So. So it's hyaluronic acid and lactic acid with B12 vitamins and collagen. People are branding. This concept of this skin cream is the difference for looking youthful versus the reality is that dermatologists say, okay, you should have a vitamin C oil, you should have lactic acid, and you should have a salicylic acid to clean your skin. It really is more simple compounds of what your skin needs in order for it to breathe and for it to age gracefully. So it's less about La Mer's secret 12 ingredient formula. It's that what your skin really needs is these four compounds.

[B]

If they're just four ingredients and simple, that's fine. But there is a thing in business where it takes a while to make a new product and you got to invest in it.

[A]

But they're not claiming, like, that's. I get what you're saying, like the La Mer. Their cream is famous because they have of, you know, 12 patented ingredients and the technology in which they do it. And they. Yeah, they'd go to their. They go to the bottom of the ocean to scrape.

[B]

No, but I agree with you. Like olive oil, vitamin C and a certain. That's enough for skin.

[A]

And that's what they're saying. It's basically. It's called the ordinary. So it's not designed to be these like complex. It's like 2.5% salicylic acid. Like that's all that it is. So it's just. It's basically the compounds and the idea. I think it's a brilliant. It's brilliant because it one connects with the pain point that the current customer is feeling. It connects in a pain point in you don't need beauty products, you want beauty products, you need to eat. So when you're realizing the struggles of your groceries and how much you can. Like how they're positioning of how much you should pay, you're more inclined to pay by their $10 face wash. Right. Because then you're creating that association of being connected to them for what they're more largely representing and saying. I think it's a really smart mix.

[B]

You know, I just know with eggs, like you can get cheap eggs, but they're. There are chickens who live miserable lives who are fed hormones. No, but this is something that a brand has to be aware because if you're putting that on the cheapest eggs where they're infusing with hormones, antibiotics, not doing that. Their brand is that they're using pure ingredients as they're meant to be. So if they put it on pasture raised or free range. You know what I mean? I'm just saying, like there's.

[A]

You're bringing up it. You bring it. Okay. I really like where your brain is at, but it's not this customer. I would say the ordinary is more that it's positioned to be more that product line for when you first start adulting, which is very much that like New York City time in your life. You know, your parents are supplementing your rent, you're struggling, but you're not really struggling.

[B]

It's kind of like a blender in university.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

To me that's kind of. It's like the magic.

[A]

It's exactly. But I just think that. But what you're saying is that's actually would be a great counter campaign that like another more naturally derived brand should be. Is like you just basically made the shittiest eggs at an affordable price point versus, like, not all eggs are created equally. So they should do, like, a counter campaign where, like, what was that brand that we saw with all the, like, farmer's daughter or whatever that had those crazy billboards and, like, beef fat on your face is hot? Like, that brand should do a counter campaign with, like, organic eggs. Eggs at 6 bucks. Still cheaper for the organic eggs. But that their products aren't created equally because I don't know that they're known for having, like, organic olive oil.

[B]

Yeah, no, it's dysfunctional.

[A]

Olive oil isn't on their shelf. I'm saying salicylic acid, Lactic acid. Olive oil.

[B]

Lactic acid is what happens when you burn.

[A]

No, but lactic acid is very good for your skin.

[B]

Is it?

[A]

Yeah. Put on your skin. Good jeans. That's the, you know, like the squirts. That is. Latte is very good for your skin. But anyways, that is ordinary eggs. All right, so Summer Fridays did an event launch in LA for their eye patches. And it looks like an extremely expensive, well constructed event with everything from custom cloud cocktail to cloud dessert to photo booth, to literally, you name it. Like, probably you got a light blue Aston Martin on the way out. Fancy. And I've got an unpopular opinion on this. I'm bored of this stuff. To me, it's very much a knot. I don't think it's impressive anymore to just show how much money you can spend on an event in an age where people are deciding to buy your product as is the treat, because everyone is struggling and is, like, hardly getting by until below 275,000 or half a million dollars on one night of event with the most famous influencers, to me, is out of touch again.

[B]

It's linear thinking at the higher levels of branding and marketing. It's like, oh, this is what people like. And then the people doing it want to do it because it makes them feel cool. But in an age where there's a reality show showing every type of excess, the eyeballs that you're looking for have already seen this, like a thousand times. They've watched every show that showed opulence, you know, like martinis being poured and a party, like in the old days, that was something people didn't see a lot, didn't get access or could only see on a couple shows. Lifestyle, the rich and famous or something. But today, everybody's feed is showing this. So how does this set you apart? It doesn't.

[A]

Well, I got actually a really interesting perspective from Anthony DeLuca, who which that Episode's going to be great. Make sure you tune into that. He said the reason why the brands do this is because when the event is done to this caliber they can get, as I said, you know, the 10 biggest influencers there and they know that they're going to post about it and they don't have to pay them for those posts because it becomes it's a good enough photo moment for them.

[B]

For them to promote themselves.

[A]

So it ends up being the same cost or cheaper because they get, they're not paying the influencers to like to them to post about it. And I said interesting take. And I think that the consumer populace, we need to know this because it, we shouldn't be celebrating brands for again like cutting more corners at the expense of really it's like capitalist greed. Like at this point, like this isn't. Think about Summer Fridays. Like they've become such a cult loved brand and I feel like they're getting to that tipping point where they're like, they're too big and they're out of touch and doing these kinds of events. Because you don't want to pay 10 influencers to wear your eye patches, which I don't think you need. I think it's way cooler when I see these average girls wearing the patches and filming it and showing, getting ready with it. That to me is way more impactful. For eye patches. You don't need to have a half a million party. They're eye patches.

[B]

No, give them to the people first of all trying to, to like seduce influencers to come to your party. You now become part of the ego driven negativity of society. Right. If your eye patches work and make people feel great. Like if you want to do a party like that, I think you get way more impact if you just brought cool people from small high schools around America, flew them in and allowed them to experience something they hadn't seen before. They'll go back and post about it. You know, you could have an eyepatch party where everybody wears an eye patch at these parties. But like you could show people who haven't been there enjoying it. But just having influencers clink glasses and, and feel special, like that doesn't honestly.

[A]

It'S kind of the like let them crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like it's kind of going back to the Versailles. Like you're right. Like I felt that way when I watched. I'm like, this is a fantastic venue. Sure. Like you're spending a ton of money but like I'm just, I don't care anymore. Seeing 20 of the most famous influencers of the moment. And you're right, like, I think would be way cooler is if they did a contest and 20 girls that had. Did the greatest impact in their communities could enter into a contest and they were chosen and they could sit next to each one of these influencers, you know, almost like that proverbial, like, soccer game where they come out with the kids, you know, like. And that is, like, they get a.

[B]

Glow up out of it.

[A]

It just, it's just. There's something to it. I just. It looks good on the Internet. It's interesting. When I. When I put this up yesterday for Hot or Not, people were like, oh, it's hot. But I think they're going off of the baseline of like, it's hot because they spent money. It's not hot because it propels the brand forward.

[B]

And it's. Again, it's people who may like it, but not engage with the brand in a meaningful way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's not. You don't get a metric that actually helps the business.

[A]

All right, I got this one. This one is. I really look forward to getting your opinion. So the UK division of McDonald's has rebranded their Happy Meals to become Unhealthy Mental Health Awareness Week. So they've now taken the smile off of the box. They're no longer calling them Happy Meals, they're calling them the Meal. And inside each of the box, they're giving children different yellow stickers that represent emotion so that they can stick on their boxes whether they feel sad or confused or agnostic or happy. And the whole push is that because more and more kids are. 48% of kids in the UK feel the pressure to be happy all the time. So McDonald's is trying to alleviate the feeling of feeling happy with this campaign push. What are your thoughts?

[B]

We're going to get a little philosophical here.

[A]

So it's hot and let's release the beast.

[B]

It's hot and not.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[B]

It's hot because it's playing to the frailties of parents. Right. Because the Happy Meal, when it came out, it was. You took your kids someplace and they were happy to go out to McDonald's. Right. There was a playground there and you celebrated in your suburban family. Today's families, a lot of them are one child family families which, when you have a one child family, there becomes an obsession over the child that actually can. Can kind of ruin the child.

[A]

Oh, interesting. Yeah.

[B]

Right. And when you're helicoptering them, they're not able to do their make their own mistakes and explain. And so it's hot in that it'll probably get sales because we've been building kids who are treated like the adults, right? Like, really, if aliens looked at us, they would think these small people are controlling adults, you know, by dictating what they eat. So. But why it's not hot is in today's society, people want to have choice because it makes them feel powerful, but meaningless choice is an imprisonment. Like, if you want to distract the populace, just give them tons of meaningless choice. Their ego and psychology will think that they have control over their life, but really they're just a prison of all of these meaningless choices. And so it's actually doing a disservice to a child to have them come there and be able to put what they want in it so they can see a reaction of their parents. Like, it's bad for children because they're still feeding them garbage. Right? So I'm putting essentially close to poison into their bloodstream, but I'm allowing them to decide how they feel. Right. Whereas kids don't need to be allowed to decide how they feel. Kids need to be able to play, scrape a knee, get better, explore, make mistakes, but it's making it look like it's a parenting thing, and it's really hurting the children, but it's good for business.

[A]

Wow. Lots of unpack there. Initially, I went straight to not, but you have changed my perspective. I went straight to not because it is too academic. Like, it's. It's something that, you know will be discussed in university classrooms because it's complicated enough to propel a conversation, and it gets people talking. The problem is the people who are talking and discussing aren't the customer. My second point to it is McDonald's is on a massive decline, and I don't feel like they're prepared to face the core issue in that we don't want to eat. Like, it's not as novel to eat shit food anymore as it was years ago. Fast, right? Like, we'd rather have a More like a Chipotle option than a McDonald's Happy Meal option. For. For. At the level in which they saw success in sales. However, when you did say. When you. When you gave me the both answers, where my brain went to is, McDonald's, I do feel, is in a difficult position for how much they've done with the Ronald McDonald House. And I do think it's complicated their message and their internal perspective as a brand because they've done so much for sick children in a Positive way. And that there's this looming unhappiness within children for being sick as now part of the brand. And they're trying to make it almost a non. Like a non attached part of the brand. Because a child choosing to have emotion versus getting leukemia at six are very much not the same thing. But it enters into the conversation because behind the scenes, McDonald's is pushing so much of what. And they've done a really good job. Job for sick children.

[B]

No, you got a good point there. The Ronald McDonald House and the Happy Meal was they wanted to bring kids happiness.

[A]

Yes, Right.

[B]

And from the perspective of demographics, you know, a family that was on an average budget or a below average budget could take their kid to McDonald's and get a good playground when you were in an urban area and help kids.

[A]

Because every portion of the Happy Meal went.

[B]

And so they, and they got a little prize in it and it was happy in that day. It would be something special for the kids that they liked. So that was. The brand is they brought happiness to kids. Now they're empowering kids, deciding how they feel. Right. They're almost kind of, they're almost perpetuating the, the, the early mental illness diagnosis that are coming in children more and more from a prescription perspective.

[A]

Yes, but the problem is it's not their problem inherently, but it's almost a problem they're inheriting because they're so focused on helping sick children. And there is this larger issue of mental illness within young children that just, it complicates where the product and the brand once was.

[B]

If they're finding Trends because Ronald McDonald helped kids with terminal cancer.

[A]

Yes, I know, I know.

[B]

So if somebody said, hey, look, there's a trend that kids are being diagnosed with issues, issues earlier we used to help them there. Why don't we just, you know, kind of perpetuate this, I think wrongful diagnosis of illness in children early. Like, let's just get ahead of that curve and say, come into McDonald's, eat your, you know what I mean? And then go take your, your, your prescriptions. But I just want to talk about, Okay, I think it attracts, if it's done well, the single parent that wants to please the kids. And you could kind of see this. Look, we're going to go to McDonald's and, and let's see what you put on your meal. You know what I mean? It allows the parent to try and make it a good day and then get the kid to put a smile on there. Like, it almost can become kind of an Objective.

[A]

No, it perpetuates. It perpetuates the solution in parenting that parents are looking to provide in a way that's simpler than actually facing and dealing with the larger issues at play. Like, to your point, I actually don't think it's a fake issue. I think it is a real issue, but it's because it's to larger to what you've been talking about. Like, I see it all the time. Like kids too are being handed iPads, and they're glued to their iPads and they're like, it just. It. They're. They're not playing outside, they're not talking to people. They don't do uncomfortable things.

[B]

You know, ask somebody who wrote a journal called Elite Dad.

[A]

Oh, gosh, he does. He had this blog online called Elite Dads that he had 60 blog followers. And he.

[B]

But this was like before. This is before Innovator, but this kind of meaningless choice is a disease. And we went to dinner the other day with somebody who's successful, only child has just one child. And the kid literally goes, I want a Coke. And then when the Coke comes, I don't like it. I want a milkshake. And then mix them together and then put peanut butter from the table and then salt in it and then took a drink and said I didn't like it and threw it on the table. And the mom's like, isn't that cute? And I'm like, no, that's a monster. Like, you're creating a monster by giving them this, this feeling that they can choose. You're not preparing them for society. Right. And I don't know where. It'd be interesting to get some psychologists to come in here. But what we're doing to kids by. When you take them somewhere cool for them, they can put an unhappy face on the box. You know what I mean? Like, there's this weird manipulation of. It's crazy. I would say in the end, not from a societal perspective, maybe hot lot for some short term business, but I think it undermines the brand long term.

[A]

Well, I completely agree. Okay, that. Great, great answer. Okay, next is. I feel like you're gonna have a quick answer to this one. So this one is Lacoste. They're the official sponsor of the Miami Open, and they basically did this like river cruise that had this. That was it. That's it. That's kind of. That was like their, their teaser trailer that they're the official sponsor of the Miami Open. Because the Miami Open was just this past week. I got. We put it up there. It was actually majority hot. I. I actually agree with this. I initially wanted to criticize them for not doing more, but I think that that's actually at the heart of what we're criticizing the, like summer Fridays for. I think that was a perfect, tasteful way of them saying that they bought the rights. Like they're back in the 305. They were official sponsors back in the day. It's really where the cross. The cost became big in the US Was sponsoring a really famous tennis player, which name escapes me. It was actually created by a tennis player. And so to me, it actually ties both the brand. I think it's tasteful and artistic in how it kind of catches that like that Kiki on the river feel.

[B]

I think Lacoste should get into golf. That's what I would say, because I think golf is. It needs some. Is open for new brands. But I thought the ad was well done. Time.

[A]

He became the best player in the world from between 1926 and 1927 with seven Grand Slam titles.

[B]

That's a cool story. And you know what? I never knew that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And people should know that.

[A]

And he. And he. He earned a nickname. He, his captain, promised to buy him a crocodile leather suitcase he had been admiring in his shop window if he won his next match. Renee lost. But in tribute to his tenacity on the court and in reference to the unusual bet, the American press christened him the Crocodile. The nickname was quickly adopted throughout the tennis world, and Renee himself even encouraged it, asking his friend and stylist, Robert George, to sew a crocodile onto the white jacket he wore when arriving onto the court.

[B]

What a great story.

[A]

And with that, the legend began.

[B]

How many people know that story? How many of our listeners knew that story? That is a failure to tell your story.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Because that makes the brand so much cooler.

[A]

Yeah. So he ended up actually creating the Lecoq brand. And that's why I thought it was actually really tastefully done, because it was like retro looking and it didn't scream. It was the perfect touch of. We're having a moment.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

Yeah. So that is.

[B]

I think Lacoste should definitely get into an alligator luggage wear, too.

[A]

All right, I've got one more. So this is Glossier. Glossier launched a new perfume. They were the original kind of beauty brand that killed it on the Internet. And they did a massive large perfume brand in hand and flowers in New York. And this was news this week in the marketing and branding world. And I. Not in my world either. To me, it's. I just. For brands listening to this that have the budget, this to me is like, is is. I don't even want to be disparaging to Walmart, but this is like passe trash. It's just. It's overdone. It's not cool. This is not marketing news. This is like you're, you know, showing up on Tuesday to hand that out.

[B]

This is a sign that your corporate headquarters is bloated.

[A]

This is a marketing agency's idea versus liquid death being a founder's marketing idea. That is the difference.

[B]

That's just a waste of time.

[A]

That is agency written all over it.

[B]

Yeah, just. And plus giving away flowers while you have fragrance. Flowers smell beautiful. Beautiful fragrances. Your fragrance is chemicals. Like, that's disgracias. That's just somebody should be fired. If you ask me. It's a big nut.

[A]

It's a no. Well, that wraps up this week's Art of the Brand. The social media master class is now live. They're doing 100 money back guarantee. So if you would like to level up your socials with a framework that works, head to my link in bio or go to Camille Hypen. More dot com. If you like this episode and you like, like watching this, please share it to somebody you know.

[B]

Yes. Share it.

[A]

Share it.

[B]

Right. You don't have to follow it. Just share it.

[A]

Just share it.

[B]

But you can follow it if you like.

[A]

It'd be nice. But if you can just share it, that helps people know that we're showing up every week to give you our unfiltered thoughts. And if you don't agree, we should.

[B]

Add a segment on legal insights on branding.

[A]

Oh, boy.

[B]

Since my little legal tip was good today. Till next time.

[A]

Till next time. We'll see you next week, guys. Bye.