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- [00:00]
A
You can only get in if you know someone that's a member.
- [00:02]
B
Experience matters. There's a sense of wonder. This is trying to kind of recreate, you know, a magic castle for adults to be delighted and surprised by everything.
- [00:13]
A
We've lost sight of the importance of experience because digital is so easy. Go back to those things that have existed because that's the most human you can learn and what humans want by the things that have lasted.
- [00:25]
B
We're calling them activations, but they're actually production studios. And then you bring in creators who then create mini movies to distribute on social media channels so that you can
- [00:36]
A
syndicate it to micro audiences that exist within these creator ecosystems.
- [00:41]
B
So it's not just now it's all creator and it's not Billboard. Now you have to create a synchronization table or a matrix. You need this type of thinking to weave a whole bunch of strategies into one if you're gonna win in this market. We're just not seeing innovation in the brick and mortar retail. It's not an experience to go there.
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A
Very tiring. It makes me not want to go.
- [01:01]
B
You want to make it actually like a fun store of the future where they're, they're augmenting your life rather than making you feel like you don't have enough time to find something.
- [01:09]
A
What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand. Say it again now. What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand. Welcome back to another week of Art of the Brand coming to you live from Glendale, California. We're also going to be actually doing this episode live on Tik Tok. So maybe you guys saw this being recorded live.
- [01:32]
B
Let's get on to it.
- [01:33]
A
Well, let's talk about some highlights from this week. I think we can both agree that Magel Castle was a highlight this week.
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B
I just know we've been driving by Magic Castle and I'm like, is this a burger joint? Like I was thinking White Castle.
- [01:44]
A
I got bad juju when I drove by a few times. It was weird.
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B
Yeah. I just wondered how it existed then finally and what it was.
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A
We didn't even know what it was like, what is a Magic Castle? So if you haven't heard about the Magic Castle, it is a hundred year old home that's been converted into what looks like kind of like a Disney fairy tale castle. But it also looks kind of weird like something you haven't seen before. And it's a private members club designed around magicians. And the entire house is a magic Club. So it's the most exclusive magicians membership in the world and it attracts the top magicians and has attracted the top magicians for 100 years. It's like the epitome of old Hollywood
- [02:32]
B
from a branding perspective. I was struggling with it because I was like the Magic Castle. Like it didn't convey to me what was really happening or it was too literal. But because it's part of old Hollywood, I think it's kept that name. And it was part of the magic of Hollywood that this became the centerpiece of magicians in the land of movies. Like it evolved into that. There's so much to talk about that experience that I just wondered to myself, how many things have I driven by in my life and not knowing how cool they are in there because they really don't have any social channels. It's like people know about it locally, but it's never raised as a destination event or something that was as cool as it was.
- [03:09]
A
I think that's what makes it so cool. So in talking to a bunch of people while we've been here in Hollywood, we're always asking for those if you know, you know, brand experiences. And the Magic Castle kept coming up as one thing that it's like a bucket list thing. Like you have to do it while you're here if you can get in. Because you can only get in if you know someone that's a member and there are people that are non magician members. But the, the core membership is true magicians that have to audition to be able to pay for membership. So you have to be a very good magician and it attracts membership from really the top magicians from all over the world and they come and they'll perform and they get performance slots. Because the whole premise is it's like a Soho house or any other kind of private members club where you can eat and you can drink and you can socialize and you can network. But throughout the whole night there are shows happening at every half an hour, quarter of the hour. Like there's probably about like seven performance rooms. And it's like a maze. The house that you're like, you'll be in a one performance on the upstairs of the third floor and then you have to like go into the basement for the other performance. Like it's a really well setup spot.
- [04:22]
B
The interior, it's an executed brand. Like it's done amazing. Like the way they've designed this house, it's like a maze. Like everything is magic. It's exquisite, it's. But it's almost darker magic. Right. It's not like kind of happy, fluffy magic.
- [04:35]
A
No, it's not Disney World.
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B
Right. It's like.
- [04:37]
A
Yeah, it's a magician's hideaway.
- [04:39]
B
Like, there's hideaways. Like, yeah, there's all these secret rooms and secret compartments. And they've really captured what. Being what that magician was.
- [04:48]
A
The Hollywood magic.
- [04:49]
B
And what I was thinking, though, because we've all heard of, like the improv or Second City or just for these clubs that help comedians do well, but this is the version of that for magicians. It's just, I feel like the comedians got ripped off because they should have like a comedy castle that. That's that cool, you know, like, where you can go.
- [05:09]
A
I think part of, like, when you think about how like magicians started, they were the original form of. Well, not the original form. They were kind of, I guess, the original of special effects. Like, they were a form of performance that tapped into this otherworldly experience. And there was such an allure and this darkness and mystique to it that it makes sense that they created this club, like, experience. And the thing that's cool too is they even make everybody dress up. So you have to wear. Men wear suits, women have to wear dresses. And like, nice shoes, predominantly heels. Or like nice flats. Cause obviously not everyone can wear heels. But, like, everyone was dressed up so well. It really felt like old Hollywood. And I think what was the coolest for us is the caliber of performance. I find, like, performance is on the decline for, like, maintaining the standard across the board and the performance that we saw within. Like, when was the last time you saw, like, really a great magician and it was just world class magicians all over the world. No, but we saw Criss angel and I saw it wasn't that great.
- [06:18]
B
Yeah, I think you loved it at the time.
- [06:21]
A
But no, I saw a bunch of the tricks and I am such a gullible person.
- [06:24]
B
What you can learn from the magic castle, I think is experience matters. The fact that they had a strip. Like, we just drove up there thinking you didn't need a dress code and we should have looked into it. But it makes it more special that you have to go and put a suit on.
- [06:38]
A
Yeah.
- [06:38]
B
Like enforce standards that are different than what everybody else is doing in order to prime the human that's experiencing your product or services. To think it's because you have to go and you change and it's kind of a pain in the butt. But then once you're in there, everybody's dressed. It makes it more magical.
- [06:52]
A
Yeah.
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B
The way you go into the building, you can tell these people take it very seriously. And even to get into the club, you have to say abracadabra, like, we filmed that of you. And then the door opens. There's a sense of wonder that a child in Disneyland. This is trying to kind of recreate a, you know, a magic castle for adults to be delighted and surprised by everything.
- [07:15]
A
Well, I think what it underscores is that experience matters and it has mattered. It's not a new thing. And that we've lost sight of the importance of experience because digital is so easy. And when you look at these things that have existed for 100 years, they often have a high standard. And they have these things in place that allow them to stay for 100 years. And those are the things where success leaves clues. Right. Like, we're going to talk in today's episode about retail about. We'll be touching on world building in a few different ways. And what your brand can learn about that in a digital first world is go back to those things that have existed, because that's the most human, like, you can learn and what humans want by the things that have lasted.
- [08:01]
B
Don't be scared to enforce standards. Right. So some people might not go there because they don't want to wear a suit. That's fine. Lean into the whatever your standards are of your business or whatever it is. Like, have high standards. Double down on experience. And what they did is they said your phones can't be out.
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A
Yeah. No photos.
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B
Right. Which is like torture for our young videographer, director of content, who was trying to sneak it out all the time, who got in there. But you enjoy the experience way more when your phone's not there, because you actually have to have conversations. You have to look around, and then you're able to pick out details that they invested time and effort into making. But if people are just on your phone, they're not experiencing all the work you've done over 100 years.
- [08:39]
A
Yeah, agreed. It was an amazing experience. And if you guys can find someone that can get you in, apparently, we heard there's a hotel that's attached to it, and you might be able to get a guest pass if you stay at the hotel. So might be something worth looking into, especially if you have kids. The Magic Castle.
- [08:56]
B
We were. We were weirded out at first, but it turned out to be amazing, like, before we knew it.
- [09:00]
A
Okay, let's move into the first headline, which is brands are creating movie sets and what that means for where the Creator economy is going. So Phil, this was your insight. Kick it off.
- [09:10]
B
Brands are going to change the nature of Hollywood and I think there's some dinosaurs in Hollywood who want to keep it to the old movies and all that. But what I took away from Coachella and all of these activations we've been
- [09:22]
A
to overall, like the Symbiotica one too, was huge.
- [09:24]
B
Yeah, all of the ones that we've been to is that we're calling them activations, but they're actually production studios. So Revolve does a giant activation and puts a lot of things there and it's essentially a production set. And then you bring in creators who then create mini movies to distribute on social media channels. And I don't think anybody, I haven't heard anybody really say it in that way before, but that's what's happening. And so brands need to come to Hollywood to kind of take advantage of all the creators here, create the sense of production and really leverage this.
- [09:58]
A
Because it has nothing to do with Hollywood. Brands are doing this all over the world. The insight is that what activations are are many movie sets that are being amplified on a cross distribution channel. So when you think in terms of creating a movie, the whole point of creating a movie is to get the syndication right so that you can sell it to Australia and to America and to Canada and to different countries in Europe. When you think of an activation, it's the same thing, but in a different way. When you're creating this entire set so that you can syndicate it to micro audiences that exist within these creator ecosystems. And that's what makes these so fascinating, is that it was kind of weird going to the RODE event last week and seeing how much that broke the Internet. Like there's all these content pieces and marketing experts saying that the EMV they got for that activation was over $10 million. And it was kind of weird when you go into it because it's like a movie set. It's. It's kind of underwhelming. Not that they didn't do a great job, but like imagine everything is just designed to look incredible within a really small frame on your screen. But when you're seeing it, it's like 2D, all of these micro props that become these massive worlds online. And why I thought that was such an interesting insight is you have to change the way that your brand is thinking from a cost to spend. Because, you know, we talked about last week how expensive the activations were, right? And like, you're like, only big, big brands can afford to do it. But when I was thinking about that this week, I was like, yeah, but these big brands aren't doing commercials anymore. And I think that's kind of also where your insight comes into play.
- [11:46]
B
Yeah. So just to go back, it has everything to do with Hollywood. So to cut that shot is fine. It does. Hollywood was the center of production. Hollywood has like activations can be done anywhere. But Hollywood was the production studio, center of the world. And we're seeing more and more brands coming to Hollywood. And what I'm suggesting is that the way we look at production studios is changing slowly. So nobody is really naming it, but it's moving towards activations which allow for all of this media content. And I think it's going to move towards stories. You're going to start seeing short TV shows coming from brands. And obviously you can do an activation in New York or Toronto, Barcelona or Hollywood. But Coachella to me really captured that Hollywood should reconfigure itself in terms of how it sees production. Because I think to your point, when you go on a movie set, it doesn't look impressive, but when you see the movie, it looks amazing. So when you go to the revolve or some activation, I thought it looked good there. It just wasn't fun. But they're creating little micro studios around the activation so people can make this content.
- [12:52]
A
I just think what you're saying is confusing when you don't. That's why I'm trying to break it down, because I know what you're saying, but I'm thinking in terms of a founder listening to this. The activations you're seeing at events, you need to relook at what the cost is and why you're doing it.
- [13:08]
B
You're making a mini production studio when you do an activation.
- [13:11]
A
But the production studio isn't centered in Hollywood. Every iPhone, but every iPhone that shows up is producing based on the set that you've created.
- [13:20]
B
So the creator is the producer. Yes, the activation is the set.
- [13:24]
A
And then separate to. What you're saying is, you're right, Hollywood is moving from being the center of movie production because it's cheaper to do that in Canada. And a lot of those production sites are now being rented out to brands because you see, like Khloe Kardashian is doing full blown productions every time she launches a new popcorn flavor. But that's separate. Right. And the reason why I think what overall you're saying is, and we're gonna talk about it later in the segment, is like content is the new medium. Right. You said Ogilvy. Let's talk about it now. Ogilvy was saying how the most valuable marketing line cereal is creatorship.
- [14:04]
B
Yeah. When they're talking about marketing and advertising plans, working with creators isn't kind of an add on or an experimental. It's their number one line cereal, where it used to be TV or it
- [14:15]
A
used to be Billboard, because you get collapse the funnel so it results in direct sales now that you've got things like Shop my that like directly incentivize people to post engaging content to sell, which I want to talk about in a second. But then you also get emv. So you get multiple metrics, you get bottom of the funnel marketing conversion metrics, and then you get emv, which is like eyeballs, which is kind of more of that branding space of like the marketing mix. But because it's measurable in different ways, it's more valuable for brands to be investing in the creatorship. Which is also a relevant point because Colin and Samir had a headline this week, one of their on their episode, talking about how the creator economy is a $43 billion economy, but like less than half creators make, you know, $10,000. And how when you hear those numbers, you think as a brand you should only be paying macro, which also conflates with another headline we're going to talk about, which is it's not about the followers, it's about understanding the creator economy as a whole and navigating between macro and micro. Do you want to touch on that quickly? Because we saw a lot this week
- [15:23]
B
like that point, you know, the 10% make the most money. It's not that insightful to me.
- [15:29]
A
No, it's not.
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B
All respect to Cohen and Samir. That's every industry in the writer's world of people who are in the writer's
- [15:35]
A
field and acting and everything.
- [15:36]
B
Right. The top 10% make the most, but it doesn't mean that that's where you go to get the solutions to your problem as a business. Right? Yeah. If you're a Marvel writer, you're gonna get paid the most. The movie's garbage. Right. That's a different industry. And most of our listeners and our people, even giant companies, aren't there where you find the actual creative people or the people who have strategic audiences are not always in the top 10%. But I think first order thinkers in marketing departments think that they have to go to the biggest people to get the effect and to touch base. The world is getting more complex and so you need better thinking. So it's not just now it's all creator and it's not Billboard. Now you have to create a synchronization table or a matrix to figure out what do I want to achieve. 12 months down the road, I'm going to have five ships launch from different spots on different platforms. They're going to converge at critical points to get maximum value spread apart. Like, you know, you need this type of thinking to weave a whole bunch of strategies into one if you're going to win in this market.
- [16:36]
A
It's so complicated to touch on. Very well said. When you hear these headlines of, you know, creator economies are everything and it's this big of a market and you know, the big people are making the biggest pieces of the pie and it's so limiting to the strategy that's required for your brand to win. And that's why we did the breakdown on the meta cube strategy of like. The reason why Medicube has become this billion dollar brand is that they focused on paying for the top of funnel celebrities. The Kylie's, the Chloe's, the Haleys paying their fee, which is disproportionately more than the 3,000 micro influencers that they hired to react to the content. So when you look at the pie of what you paid, probably Haley, Kylie, Khloe are gonna be the most expensive. But the problem is is that most businesses stop and think, okay, if Hailey Bieber and I'm making this up, charges $2 million for a story and that's my entire budget and am I gonna get the ROI of the $2 million based on paying that post? Probably not if you're not a huge company. But what Medicube did is they paid for the cost of those celebrities and then they created these affiliate armies that reacted to the device that Hailey was using to say, oh my gosh, I just found it. This is the device that Hailey used and different versions of that. Basically feeling like they unpacked a beauty secret. And by them they layering the expensive creator with an army of cheap creators, it built more trust online. So it created a larger success for the ROI because they were strategically using talent.
- [18:22]
B
Together we just created an art of the brand bellringer moment because the way you describe that this is actually a strategy we've been indirectly using, but we'll use with some of our clients is wherever you are, if you have $100, maybe the strategy is take $80 to get the highest value single creator and then take $20 to mobilize the people who are kind of the Micro creators who don't have that price point, like figure out what that ratio is, but don't drop 100 just on one or 100 on another. Like, it seems very tactical strategy.
- [18:57]
A
And like that's the other thing too is I want to, I want to do a very quick sidebar on Shop My because I haven't talked about it on the show. Shop My is such a. A underutilized platform for brands and there's such a small window to get ahead on it. Shop My is not as new. It's definitely like had its tipping point. There's over like 30,000 branded products. It might even be at a zero, might even be 300,000 branded products. I did a call with them a few weeks ago. But the reason why Shop My is so brilliant is that it's, it's gamified and incentivized women to get free, which at the end of the day motivates women so much to work hard. And let me just quickly deny human nature. Don't deny human nature. Do not deny women's love for many lip glosses and free clothing. Okay. I mean, I speak for myself. I went through this myself. So this is what happens basically when you sign up for Shop My. There's different levels. And once you start selling and you start creating sales, you can graduate through different levels. And as you become a different level of a Shop My creator, you, you get different prioritization from brands and how they gift product. So what happens is you will be reached out by a brand and they will give you. They will say, are you interested in receiving a lookbook? And you will get a lookbook and you will be able to pick five to six to seven, whatever their strategy is, pieces from that lookbook. And you get the products for free. And then you can post about it and then you can link them. And then basically it just keeps going and going and going so that the more money you're making, you, you're also getting more free product. But it's not free product. The way that it used to be is that a brand would reach out and ask if they can send you some stuff and then you would just get like you're at the behest of whatever that person picked. It could be tacky shit. It could be shit that you wouldn't pick out. It could be picked shit that you would never wear. It's annoying when you start getting a bunch of stuff over time of you don't want. Like, it doesn't matter if it's free. If you don't want it. It's annoying when you get a lot of it. But the way that Shop My has built this is that it, you're getting a lookbook from brands that you respect and you're picking the thing you want. So it's like you're shopping for free, which is something that like honestly only celebrities had access to before. And that's why Shop My is so powerful, is that they've gamified the experience. And it's why the micro influencers to my core point is so powerful. Because for them to get be treated like this by brands for the first time is disproportionately changing the creator economy. And it's why these little mini influencers that have 12,000 followers start doing all this Shop My stuff are selling so much product because their 12,000 followers really know them and they think Jenny really loves that jacket. And you know what, she probably does really love that jacket because she picked it out of a lookbook. So the thing that's amazing about it is that it allows your brain to start thinking like we've been talking for years about micro versus macro. And that micro is very powerful. Shop My completely changed that and it's another relevant detail for your brand to look into. There is a cost associated with listing. There's also all the brands we work with that crush it on Shop My do have a dedicated administrative person that manages TikTok shop in shop My. So it's relevant to invest in this resource. But the upside has huge potential for
- [22:08]
B
your brand, some gold in there and
- [22:09]
A
that was not brought to you by Shop My. That was a genuine take that I'm recommending. Let's get into the Alex Earl versus Alex Cooper the X verse the X the two ladies online. So in case you've missed it, I am definitely not as deep into the Gen Z lore but I made sure that I like battled with our resident Gen Z on making sure I knew the core points. So high level. Alex Cooper has this top podcast called Call Her Daddy. Has had a top podcast for a long time. Podcast is so successful she has a network called the Unwell Network. On the Unwell Network she brings on Alex Earl among other talent. And Alex Earl has a podcast called Hot Mess. Alex Earl, who is a very well known creator recently launched her reelactives for sold $5 million on the first day, million dollars in the first five minutes. Is a very well known and successful creator. In fact she was well known and successful when she was signed to the Unwell Network. Nobody really knows the scoop But Alex Earle leaves the podcast because apparently it's over some money stuff. It seems to have kind of be laid in of, like, there's a mix between her getting really drunk at the super bowl and spilling some stuff on a show that Cooper released. But it also seems to have to do with some, like, payout business negotiation stuff because Alex Earle was pretty successful at that time. So I think it's probably pretty reasonable differences Long and the short. Right after that, there's a dispute with the PR person because Alex Cooper and Alex Earle share the same PR girl, and Alex Earle is getting more deals than Cooper. So Alex Cooper drops the PR agent. Who knows if it is a. What is that line you always say?
- [23:56]
B
Oh, relative deprivation.
- [23:58]
A
Yeah, relative deprivation.
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B
This is like a virus that infects. I think I've talked about it on here. But it always affects happiness that you can be incredibly happy by what you've achieved and then you see somebody else has more than you.
- [24:09]
A
Yeah.
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B
And then you feel deprived relative to what they have, and so now you're not happy anymore.
- [24:13]
A
Yeah. And I think that might have been probably what the, like, PR drama was about. It's like, it may not necessarily be about Alex Earl alone, but just that Alex Cooper wants more deals and her PR person. It's also not for nothing, very common for people to recycle their PR person in Hollywood because, like, you just. It's constant relative desperation. Deprivation.
- [24:33]
B
Relative deprivation.
- [24:34]
A
Yes, that one.
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B
All I know is I will always buy tickets to see two powerful egoic rivals fight it out in public. Like, it's just. It's like a car wreck. You gotta watch it and then you try to understand it and then see what lessons you can learn from it.
- [24:47]
A
Well, that's the whole thing. Is that so to fast forward, apparently Alex Cooper or Alex Earle has been, like, liking and commenting all of the content that suggests that Cooper is demonic and kind of poking the bear. But Alix Earle has never really came out and said anything about the drama, which is relevant because Alix Earle posts 20 times a day on social media. So she is someone that shows, like, literally she is peeing on the toilet and she's letting the world know what she's thinking when she's peeing. Like, it's that level of like, There is no. It is parasocial relationship through and through. Everybody knows everything, everything about this girl, but yet she never talks about this Alex Cooper drama. So fast forward. Alex Cooper does this, like, raw, like, leaning back selfie video of, like, yo, Alex Cooper, I'm ready For us to like, let's hash this all out online. You know what happened. I know what happened. Let's put this to bed. Let's get this all out. And like, the world is like freaking out because it is a public calling out. People are annoyed because they think that all of this stuff is constantly fabricated. That Alex Cooper, like, utilizes, utilizes the Internet as a way to like, drive sales eyeballs and awareness for her content.
- [25:59]
B
That's what everybody in every business does, utilize the Internet to drive sales and business. So why would you be annoyed at people doing that?
- [26:07]
A
Well, I think that people are annoyed for feeling invested when there's nothing really there. So I think there just becomes a point where you can exhaust your network for like showing up and getting ready to listen and then it just be boring. You know what comes out.
- [26:21]
B
I think what it shows you also from a business perspective is don't pay attention to what people say because most of the time what they're saying isn't actually what they're thinking or feeling. So they're annoyed, but they're still watching, they're still leaving comments, they're still doing all this stuff. Right? But they want to say they're annoyed. But. So when you're in this world of PR and you have to fight a lot harder to get pr, some of these conflicts could be staged. But I actually tend to think that it's more some people who are successful. It doesn't mean they're deep, it doesn't mean they're kind. They can get into very vitriolic, egoic battles on people who step on their turf. And I wanna watch it. Like, I don't get annoyed at it if it was revealed that it was all constructed and wasted people's times. But that's what reality shows are fake and they're called reality shows. Like, it's the nature of entertainment.
- [27:07]
A
The more POV perspective that I would wanna contribute to this conversation is that I think Alex Cooper is in a position of feeling frustrated because they. She's kind of being left out of a conversation that she was initially trying to control the narrative on. They both came from media backgrounds showcasing vulnerability, the good, the bad and the ugly of, you know, young female lives that are like, sexually liberated and sharing that on the Internet, which is. Was a new concept and she tried to bring her into her stable so that she could own a part of that up and coming narrative of like a younger version of her. And Alix Earle has done a better job of maintaining relevance and connection to people. Like showcasing more of that vulnerability. And she launched a better brand. Right. Like the Unwell drinks didn't do as well as the Earl Active Skincare. And I think that when I look at Unwell sponsoring a booth at Sephora, the industry knew that Alix Earle's skincare line was coming out. I've known for seven months. And I've known because I've had brands that wanted to do brand deals with her at a high fee that she turned down. And we knew that her derm was involved. It's been under wraps. So I think that Alex Cooper is in a place of vulnerability, wanting to reclaim a narrative. I think her views are down. I don't think she has as strong of a base. And seeing the success of the drop that Alex Earle did has created this sense of wanting to reclaim power. And it's why she's calling her out in a vulnerable way. Because for whatever reason, of everything that Alix Earle shares, she continues to stay quiet on this, which is odd considering she launches Vlogs Weekly and there's just no comment on her side.
- [28:51]
B
Yeah, it's interesting to see who takes. Tries to take the moral high ground because they both started podcasts that were kind of destructive to the female. You know what I mean? Like, they weren't like high class, moralistic podcasts. But then one goes, I can't believe you did this to me. Well, half of the content on their podcasts were people doing things that you couldn't believe or that were scandalous and all that stuff. So it's interesting when celebrities who made money being scandalous or growing, you know, then take. Then take affront that somebody has done something that's not.
- [29:23]
A
I don't think that's quite the narrative. I think it's more, Alex Cooper is like, I'm sick of this bullshit. Like, stop playing this victim. Like, let's just hash this out. Because, like, Alex Cooper is sick of looking like this mean older female bully that's like a different version of her. And it's like a less popular take on it. So it's. But I also think that. I think also Alex Cooper is annoyed because she probably had some form of a plan to get into a product that could be in a Sephora, maybe the first, like, health and wellness, like crossover collab. And I think that's why she rushed to do a booth at Sephoria, because the booth was for the cost of those booths. Like, I've heard it's like plus plus plus 100k. She gave nothing out. It was like, literally bag charms There wasn't drinks there. Like, it's very expensive to have a booth there. And I think she did it because she's got something coming and she wanted to pay to show up so that when she launches her product. Cause Alex is launching hers. She doesn't look like a copycat. Like, I think she's trying to change this narrative so that she can win in the kind of culture wars.
- [30:27]
B
How is she trying to change the narrative? By engaging in a fight with her?
- [30:30]
A
Well, because if she just came out with this beauty product or health and wellness product.
- [30:34]
B
Because fight is the issue we're talking about.
- [30:36]
A
Yes. But the fight is just her saying, alex, Earl, explain what happened, because nothing happened. So I'm sick of being this Internet villain that I didn't do anything because
- [30:48]
B
we had some form of business Internet villain with her podcast called Call Her Daddy.
- [30:53]
A
She did, but on her own terms.
- [30:54]
B
Okay, well, sure.
- [30:56]
A
Right.
- [30:56]
B
Once you get into warfare, may I segue a little bit? Because I think you've got. You've covered this point brilliantly because we're doing this live for the first time. What our producer has said is that I'm getting hated on by all the listeners about my Justin Bieber comments.
- [31:11]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [31:11]
B
From last thing. And I just want to say, you need.
- [31:13]
A
Amazing.
- [31:14]
B
Right.
- [31:14]
A
I am a believer.
- [31:15]
B
One of the things that makes people more successful is the ability to engage in debate with people who you disagree with. Right. And so you don't have to label somebody X just because they have a different opinion of them. Especially if I spend time getting to know them. Right. So these two may have been able to sort it out if they had a discussion. But you said Cooper is pissed off at being labeled as the older, you know, whatever one.
- [31:38]
A
Well, I think it sucks to be that. If the Internet doesn't know, like, Alex Earle has such an army. Right. So, like, it sucks to just be this, like, hated, like, disliked person when you're like, yo, nothing really happened.
- [31:50]
B
But I will tell you, and I've said this to my daughters and to many of the females that I've coached over the years, it's better to be feared than liked. It's better to be respected than liked. Don't change your opinion, because people are going to call you down for it. You need to have good dialogue. And then JB example, Guy grew up close to my town. I know his family. I want him to succeed. I want him to get better. I'm not just going to go blow smoke up his butt because you tend to worship him like, it's not about your feelings. It's about what could actually help that individual. And that's the advice that I was trying to give in that context. We all need to have those debates with people who respect different opinions.
- [32:25]
A
Well, I also think it's relevant for people to listen to the long form, which just went out, it was delayed. Cause he recorded late last week for actually working Coachella in that. What Philip is saying is like, he needs to go find himself again. It's like he's living in a box that we don't know what he represents. And we're kind of defending someone that we're not entirely clear on. Like, what is that brand today?
- [32:50]
B
Well, people will use your brand for their happiness and so they want Justin Bieber just to keep feeding them happiness. Whereas sometimes celebrities can be broken by the system and they need to recover or they need to go somewhere so they can come back fresh and protect their own well being.
- [33:07]
A
Yeah, I mean, I saw him perform on his last tour in Toronto. It made me very sad to see him perform the last time because. And he ended up canceling it like a few shows afterwards because you can tell that he doesn't have the joy that he once did. And he really was like the best performer. Like it was the best concerts I ever went to. And I went to literally all of them. And it's just hard to see when you don't know like, what happened. And I think that that's where the gap is.
- [33:34]
B
Well, we've seen a lot of these celebrities that were child end up hurting themselves later in life because people just want to keep taking from them. Right. And then they end up spiraling and sometimes killing themselves. So the child celebrity is very dangerous.
- [33:47]
A
Okay, let's talk about Victoria Beckham is profitable. So this is interesting because there's two big headlines this week that came out. So Gap is finally profitable again and Victoria Beckham is profitable again, or, sorry, profitable for the first time. Her fashion line. And what's interesting is there's two different things to analyze, what's happening in each of them. And I really want to talk about both of them because they're interesting for founders in a different way on the Victoria Beckham front. So Victoria Beckham owns two brands. There's the Victoria Beckham fashion line and there's the Victoria Beckham beauty line. And the Victoria Beckham beauty line has been profitable since 2022. A long time. It's a very successful beauty line. Her fashion line has not been profitable. That's also because fashion is much harder Than beauty. I mean you've got like sizing, you have inventory changeover, you have seasons. You know, once a blush is one size and a blush is good to go for the whole year. So it is relevant that they're different business models. But what I think is the most fascinating is that why her fashion brand is finally profitable and why I believe it's finally profitable is that Victoria Beckham found a very clear white space in the industry. She found and realized that there was a segment of the population, this discerning high net worth woman that was sick of overly branded products, but wanted high quality, quiet luxury products. And there was a gap for places that they could shop and buy from. What's interesting is that the beauty brand to me became that gateway product. It became that world building. Because when she got into beauty and she nailed the beauty, more women like myself flocked to the beauty first. Before I think about buying $600 pants, right? Like it's harder to build that marketing rule of seven for me to go and like go to her website, look at products, decide to buy. But because she got beauty by being that entry point strategy, more women over repeat of seeing her beauty products, went to her website and then ended up converting through that funnel. And it's a really interesting case study because it represents to me where identity branding and world building is going. Cause Summer Friday did the same thing on a cheaper price point. They had their beauty brand and then they collabed with Gap, which is our next topic. And you now are seeing this intersection of brand identity through like what you wear, what you put on your face, like a full kind of expression of your identity through branding. It's so the beauty angle to me is the most brilliant. I think fashion is. It's so complicated and competitive to compete in that. Analyzing her angle on fashion and beauty is just, it's so brilliant beauty. Like when you look at the sephorization of beauty, it's really gone to the kids. It's really folk. It almost looks like candy. Like it's really like collecting.
- [36:51]
B
Well, we took a picture of that. Where were when we took a picture of the Sephora shop, Palm Springs.
- [36:57]
A
I was literally a nightmare.
- [36:59]
B
It's like a brand barf of how
- [37:02]
A
much shit is packed into that store. Like how impossible it is to stand out and how little brand loyalty it is. It's just like, oh, this is pink and this is yellow and this is blue and it's like a candy bag when you are done at the end of just like how much stuff that you can Pack in and like just trying the new brand. And Victoria Beckham intentionally refused to go into Sephora.
- [37:24]
B
Well, that's. I think that's the right call in some cases because there's a paradox of choice in there. I think people like to go in there to feel like they're trying everything but, you know, like you can buy all of those products online. So I don't understand the appeal of Sephora.
- [37:39]
A
It's so brilliant that she didn't go in there because she went into like high end department stores, into unique retailers like Violet Gray or like Space nk. And there's another version in Australia that she went into of that same kind of like specialty retailer. But it took a long time for someone like me to see it because in North America there's, there's less department store offerings that sell her product. She's kind of all over the place in Europe in the department store model. But her collabing, like her foundation drops with like Augustinus Bader, like a high end skincare line. Her creating, like her lipsticks are all like tortoise shells. Like they look. Or like, or like matte black packaging or like it's just it all, it feels like calmness.
- [38:21]
B
She's actually killing tortoises to put her makeup.
- [38:23]
A
No, the pattern, the tortoise pattern. But what's so interesting is like she spoke to that woman that's like overwhelmed by Sephora and overwhelmed by where beauty and fashion is going.
- [38:36]
B
Like, it's not where an elegant, professional, busy person goes. No, because it's not refined. Like that department store model maybe dying away a little bit. But it was a refuge. Like going there didn't feel like work.
- [38:49]
A
No.
- [38:50]
B
You know what I mean? It felt like you were being indulged. It was almost like a spa. It was almost like a little bit of a spa where they would.
- [38:55]
A
My cortisol went through the roof when I walked by the Sephora on the main street in Palm Springs. They have the first shelf almost like pushed up against the glass when you come in. So the whole like, it's just, it's like overstuffed. But my point is, is that when you look at the brands like the Row, you know, that are really crushing it right now. That woman has space for like several brands in that category and caliber, like you're not just gonna buy absolutely everything from the Row. And that's what Victoria Beckham did. But what's brilliant is that she used beauty as her entry point strategy. It's kind of like her diffusion line in that if you didn't know this. Like, Goyard introduced the Goyard wallet. And that's why the wallet blew up, because it allowed people, for 600 to $800, depending on your currency, to buy something that represented a larger brand world that had existed for 200 years at a price point that is affordable for almost every single income bracket based on paycheck. And the reason why that's relevant is that more and more people are living at home longer. So when you live at home until you're 32, and even if you're making minimum wage, your paycheck can afford that $600, $800 kind of wallet. Price point and beauty is the same thing too. When I walked around the department stores in Paris, I bought some of her makeup, like tchotchkes as a way to like try out the VB brand. And now I'm more likely to buy a pair of sunglasses or maybe a blouse or maybe dress pants because I entered into the world. So she's a really fascinating case study of why she went profitable. Gap entirely different. So Gap is profitable again. And this is finally a big brand comeback story, which I'm really excited for us to chat about because Gap is on a roll.
- [40:38]
B
So who owns Gap?
- [40:40]
A
It's a publicly traded company primarily owned by institutional investors, with the founding Fisher family retaining significant influence. The Fisher family holds roughly 33% of shares, while institutional investors like Vanguard, BlackRock, Dodge and Cox hold approximately 60 to 64%. It's a comeback story for a public company which we don't see many of these of. So I think this is an exciting case study in a different way. Basically, in 2022, the brand was losing money. In 2025, the brand started making money with its fourth quarter sales up 8% to now being a billion dollar in profits, which is insane. And a large portion of it is the collapse that it has been doing online. So in case you've missed it, the collabs. Yeah, Gap has been on a roll.
- [41:29]
B
Like literally retail store sales. Can't be. I wonder where their sales that growth came from. Is it all dtc, you know what I mean? Or is it from their store, their legacy stores? Growing up, Gap was in my was always known as the best jeans. Just when I grew up. Yeah, it was known as.
- [41:46]
A
Because by the time I was a kid, it was the sweaters.
- [41:48]
B
So what is it known for now?
- [41:50]
A
Honestly, for these collabs? Yeah, Gap is riding off that old brand awareness. It hasn't really evolved too much. It's just brought really relevant zeitgeist collaborations through basically what you were talking about earlier, the mini production commercials. So they did this killer one with Cat's Eye. They brought in Summer Fridays, the Sephora brand. They brought in Cult Gaia. They did with Apple and Gwen. And they've done things with Sandy Lang. And what's cool is actually in Mad Happy. It's our friend that was doing this, a D. Draxler at ica. So she's been crushing these behind the scenes.
- [42:20]
B
She knows to make money.
- [42:21]
A
Sure she does.
- [42:22]
B
You know when I look at it though is it shows that it doesn't have to be luxury because that company used its money intelligently to collab to make people who can't afford the crazy clothes feel special by wearing those clothes.
- [42:34]
A
There's a ton of people that shop at malls.
- [42:36]
B
Yeah, I know.
- [42:37]
A
You know, that have like that. That still want average price point products. You just have to make it cool. You have to just be top of top of mind.
- [42:43]
B
You have to make it cool for the price point.
- [42:45]
A
Well, so they did two things. The first they did all of these collabs and the second is they brought in the creative director, Zac Posen, who was a high fashion designer. He had his own eponymous name line and he knows the Hollywood, he knows all the Hollywood.
- [42:57]
B
So that's kind of a key.
- [42:58]
A
He was dressing and he's working with.
- [43:00]
B
Working with a D is going to rock it.
- [43:01]
A
Timothee Chalamet, I always want to call him Timothy Shamwow. Now he did Anne Hathaway and they have an elevated called Gap Studio line. So they've created like a line that dresses the celebrities on the red carpet and then they have their store line and then they have their collab stuff. But you brought up an interesting point earlier and that's I think the core controversial take I want to take with this is it's clear you can be profitable when you make yourself cool again. So when you invest in like top creatives and you tap into the zeitgeist where you're almost. It felt like they were doing these like every two weeks. Like it was kind of the malborn strategy. Like just be so loud and tap into all these different niches and the larger zeitgeist. But their retail experience hasn't changed. So I feel like I've been hearing for the last two or three years that Gap is just doing all this cool stuff. But whenever I happen to walk by them in the mall, nothing pulls me in to the store to make me want to buy. So to me, what is the opportunity Cost of what they're losing based on the earned media value that they're gaining.
- [44:04]
B
Yeah, we're just not seeing innovation in the brick and mortar retail like we're seeing kind of first, first order, like turning something up a little, but we're not seeing that. And that's where the beautiful segue to Target, which is investing a billion dollars into reframing and restructuring how their retail environment is. And I think this is brilliant. And it's coming late because those long aisles with the same racks with things stacked there, it's not an experience to go there. Right. And so Target recognizing that in order for them to dominate in the retail space, they have to make their stores way more interactive and experiential, I think is brilliant.
- [44:45]
A
Well, it's so interesting that all this is happening at one time because there was a few headlines this week that interconnect. So the first is that Gen Alpha is forcing retailers to rethink the store. So Gen Alphas, who is younger than Gen Z prefer in store shopping over online shopping. So what's interesting is these younger generations that have only grown up with tech prefer to get more like into real life, going into stores, buying things in a physical experience than just ordering it online. Probably because they don't have credit cards. And I think that's actually a really relevant point that people aren't touching on is there's a lot of people that don't have credit cards that make buying online very difficult. And when you think about it, especially these brands like, you know, Kylie Cosmetics being the number one cosmetic brand at Ulta, the shelves are completely sold out because 16 year olds don't have a Visa.
- [45:41]
B
Yeah, right, interesting. But they got a debit card or cash or.
- [45:45]
A
But what's interesting is that when you look at the delta of the people who are younger, but then you have people like me that like, I predominantly only shop online. I get annoyed when I go to the mall. And it hasn't changed and it hasn't innovated. Right. So you kind of like, how do you bring everybody back into retail? And it's because you have to rethink retail entirely.
- [46:05]
B
I want to drop an art of the brand, another piece of gold here because all businesses that do really well look at things. And you guys as founders who are listening or in your business, you have to examine every step of the process your customer goes through. And not enough CEOs and founders go and just sit in the store and watch what happens. And I bet you if the CEO of these retailers or A clothing store sat and watched. Where? And I'll ask you this if you get it. Where is the bottleneck of buying stuff when we go into Rag and Bone or we go somewhere. To me it just occurred to me, it's the change room, right? Like you have to wait for a change room. You have to get your clothes off the rack.
- [46:47]
A
Oh, not for me. I hate trying on things right.
- [46:50]
B
Like you don't like trying on things, right?
- [46:52]
A
But not anything that they could do.
- [46:53]
B
That bottleneck is what slows it down. Now if Target or some company is going to invest in a retail experience, like we had a Lululemon mirror that showed me how to work out. Like if you could create a three dimensional where you could change the background, I can stand in front of it and through a holograph, or it could take a picture of me and then recreate in the mirror in front of me, of me in an outfit. In a different scenario, that's actually a relatively small investment where I could try on 50 of your outfits right there and just buy them in the store and you could make it fun. So you're in an interactive environment. But we have the same type of changing room doors with the same stupid hooks for 100 years. So nobody find a way to change or improve that changing room experience for clothing retail.
- [47:34]
A
I actually think that what would be smarter though is like it should be an app. And the app scans you in like a white two piece set that you get at home and so that you can see like if you gain weight, if you lose weight, like how your body dimensions are changing and then the brands through some kind of like a blockchain or through an AI like standardized scanning model show what that. Because the reason I'm saying that is if you just do the mirrors in the store, it's still bottlenecked from people like standing in front of those mirrors and like clicking on them versus cause I still like the tactical experience of touching and seeing and feeling something. So I'd rather the Camille try on to be more like on my phone than having to wait somewhere that has
- [48:18]
B
a line, okay, those apps exist, but the experience in store I could put a bunch on and I only try on the ones that I really like. You know what I mean? There's the tech to do that and making the tech to do that to make it work will give you a disadvantage.
- [48:33]
A
But you know what's really interesting though? I think what would be actually the smartest is so the other day when I was at, when I was at Adi's office, the new Hausa line. She like, Halsa's one of her clients. And I saw the whole new Hausa collection, but it was all flat lays. And I really didn't like the flat lays. And I was kind of like, what's a flat lay?
- [48:52]
B
For those of us who are.
- [48:52]
A
It's just the photo without it being on a person. So it's like the jacket, like laying against the table. When I was looking at it, I was like, I really don't like this. It just looks like the same stuff I've seen. Regurgitated House is one of my favorite brands. And she's like, no, you have to see it on the models. It looks so cute. So then she went through the process of going through the software and finding it and showing it. And then instantly I wanted like five things when I could see it on somebody. So it's almost like they should have like a holographic like Runway show of people wearing it.
- [49:21]
B
But we talked about that when we went to revolve too. Like, if you're going to change that in store experience, pay hot models.
- [49:26]
A
I know Marissa loved that idea to
- [49:27]
B
be walking around your store in the outfits and they go and they change every five minutes and they're interacting like you have to invest to change the landscape in order to win.
- [49:36]
A
Aligned, aligned, aligned. Okay, so that was really fascinating. So just to recap. So after we say this, so gap killing it. Digital collabs that tap into the zeitgeist literally result in a billion dollars in profit. Amazing. But it is worth it for me to say that it isn't just the socials alone they have done. They have restructured, eliminating but only $100 million in costs in 2024 targeted to be an additional 150 million. It's just relevant for me to say that because I was in the business of fashion article. And they also diversified their sourcing away from China. So they want you in 2026 to have less than 3% of their sourcing come from China. So they moved to Vietnam, India, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Cambodia and Guatemala is where they've moved it to. And they've had the highest gross margins in 25 years right now. What's interesting about that though is as we said, the retail experience doesn't match digital. And as we're talking about this, Target announces that it's doing a billion dollars investment in changing the experience of the store. And then the same week, Walmart also announces that it's putting $5.55 billion to move away from the old Value aesthetic. And they're not moving away from value, but they're upgrading the expression of value. So like what does value mean in a modern day setting? So one of the things that you brought up that's really interesting that they're doing, they're widening the space between the shelves so they're not making them smaller like in Sephora, they're actually making them bigger. They're leveraging way more AI in the stores. And the whole language is that they're remodeling to be the store of the future.
- [51:21]
B
Yeah, I love that phrase because I find with all of the digital pressure on our eyeballs that when I go into a. Like before, you know, the digital pressure of the phone going shopping could be fun to wander because you're discovering as you're wandering. Yeah, you can discover on your phone. So when I go into a store that's crowded and cluttered, like it's tiring, very tiring. Even in grocery stores it makes me
- [51:46]
A
not want to go.
- [51:47]
B
Right.
- [51:47]
A
So back to our instacart argument.
- [51:49]
B
Focusing and doing all that stuff. But by widening the store, by making it like you want to make it actually like a fun place to go, pleasant place to go as the store of the future, where they're augmenting your life rather than making you feel like you don't have enough time to find something.
- [52:04]
A
Yeah, Listen to this. They're investing billions into layouts, lighting, signage, assortment, presentation and technology so the store feels more modern, convenient and premium without giving up its price LED positioning.
- [52:16]
B
You know, one thing I would, I would say to them, they could consider doing because it's such, such a far trek from one side to the other. They should make like those elevator escalators in there.
- [52:24]
A
Oh my God, like the ones at the airport.
- [52:26]
B
Yeah, because they're not actually the fittest people. But, but I think something like that people would love. They do.
- [52:31]
A
Have you just made so many people giggle in their cars, it's crazy. And then at like Christmas they can make it like the Polar Express. Yeah, okay, but the same week and the next headline, is that what we talked about? So it's a new survey from retail consultancy that 73 of Gen Alphas prefer brick and mortar and they're making like leasing agents rethink the process, which I think makes sense because it, I would rather, I'd be more drawn to go to a mall if there was a segment of the mall that had like pop up turnovers. Whether it's two weeks, whether it's two months, whether it's like six months turnovers. Like just like it changing. There being something that makes it different.
- [53:13]
B
Like I did some development of these with these big companies in the past and what they want is they want to get stores into five year, very, very tough, tight leases and it just forces them to go out of business if the trends and those lease terms don't reflect how fast attention is changing.
- [53:30]
A
Yeah.
- [53:30]
B
And the first property management companies in these department stores that are able to redefine lease terms in terms of like one month to six months to allow companies to go in with like a longer type activation. Okay, we're launching our product in here for six months and then you go away and then you come back. Like we need to relook at how we lease retail property so that companies can go in and come out. But I don't want to go into a mall eight months later and have the exact same.
- [53:58]
A
Well, that's kind of why I hate the mall. Like when I go to the mall back home that's near us, I just, it actually makes me more tired because I hate looking at like airy and pink and like Skinny Village and like it just. I want there to be something that evolves. Yeah, no, I. But I think it's fine for there to be like you still want like the anchor Gap in the mall or the anchor Zara, the Anchor Aritzia. There should just be a segment of the mall that has turnover because it brings you out when like for example, Matilda Jerf, she's got this brand called Jerf Avenue and she has this. She had a store that was on Canon in Beverly Hills. But I was also sad because by the time we saw it, when we went back to go shop in it, it had shut down. Cause I guess it was like a really short term pop up. But like knowing that that's opening, I just, I think it should be. Those things should be open a bit longer than two weeks because I find as an adult it's very hard to like squeeze that in right away. I think it's easier for young people that have less like formalities in their life, but it's harder when you know life is lifing. But anyways, point being is that would drive me to go to a mall more often because it brought me back into retail when I was excited to experience something in real life and see how they did it.
- [55:12]
B
Yeah, like that therabody store in Century City is a cool store to go and experience. Right. But should it be there for 10? You know, like there has to be a balance in changing how retail is making it more experiential. You know, it's not just having like a mini putt course in the middle, but the way that the products are rotated through. You almost feel like when I go to the mall, I'm gonna discover some new things like that will bring me there.
- [55:40]
A
You know we talked about like the Nike and the LeBron James commercial. I think a two week pop up should be like when they're dropping the beats slash Nike or ex Nike headphones that for two weeks you can go and like try to out drive LeBron at like century City. That makes sense to do for two weeks. I think other than that though you should. Unless you've got a really good marketing strategy or you're a brand that like can pop up and pop down. But I do think short term retail to build a community and discoverability is something that's lost on a lot of people. Like to have a store for four months even if it costs you money. Think about the like the upside of people don't realize, people don't care and that's like the hardest thing to hear. But you can be working so hard. But if you're not in an obvious way showing up in a way that fits into their life and then you have the mix around it, it's very hard to compete. So if you do something for four to six months, yes, there's like dollars and cents that you have to make to make the least make sense. But there's also, you're starting that rule of seven for people and you're creating that discoverability in a way that is very hard online. Like when you're constantly facing ads, it's very overwhelming. Like for example, Bonbrush, there's like that famous Parisian brush brand and they like have the twisted handles. I'm sure you've seen it on ads on Instagram and I always saw it on Insta. Anna, not you. I know, I've always seen them on Instagram ads and it's been intriguing, but I really don't need another $200 brush. I'm really fucked up. I have a few of them, you know, like I have a few really expensive brushes. I know I need help. I'm talking about it out loud. That's how I start. I'm starting to. I'm working through some things. Okay, moving on. I saw the store in Paris and I was excited to see the store because I've, I've seen so many ads for the product. It made it feel more real.
- [57:34]
B
It's the Strategy we talked about earlier, like, synchronizing multiple channels to get people to experience, interact with your brand.
- [57:41]
A
Yes. And I didn't end up going into the store, but I took a photo of the outside. And a few weeks later, I happened to randomly be in New York, and I sat down with their PR person. She, like, owns Veronica Ulmer. She's amazing.
- [57:53]
B
She.
- [57:53]
A
If you have a beauty brand, I recommend checking her out. Cgc, I think, is her brand. She does London and New York beauty pr, and she gifted me the mini bond brush. And I was so excited because I said to her, I was like, emphatically, I just saw the store. Have you seen it in Paris? And blah, blah, blah. And. And my point is, is that you can't measure that as a brand. So it's worth it to kind of look into that experiential retail and doing the full marketing mix so that you can develop that relationship with your customer. Let's move on to American Eagle and Sydney Sweeney. I'm ready for your hot take on this, my friend. So American Eagle re taps Ms. Sydney Sweeney for jean shorts for the summer. So the ad is basically Sydney asking, do you know what brand this is? You know, do you know, like, leading into the controversy before. And then at the end, she goes, are my jean shorts. They're American Eagle. And she giggles. And the commercial ends, basically alluding to the extremely controversial ad that happened before. And she's got a crazy haircut. It's shortened. Game changing.
- [58:57]
B
May I? Jump in, Elliot?
- [58:58]
A
Jump in, Jump in. He's ready to go.
- [59:00]
B
You know, my initial take is, I don't think they actually, you know, it's like a sequel. It was disappointing because they didn't lean into what made the first campaign one of the most successful of the last decade by finding some more controversy. Finding something. Because, you know, once you have a big controversy, you got to keep going with it. And I think this was like, a safe, safe, disappointing sequel.
- [59:21]
A
Interesting. What do you think they should have done?
- [59:23]
B
She's famous for her breasts and jean shorts cut short. If you turned it upside down, could kind of look like breasts. And you could kind of have people confused that it was her breasts, but actually it was her butt in jean shorts.
- [59:35]
A
Right.
- [59:36]
B
And then give a different perspective on her sexual. On how the clothes make you sexual and tie into what she's famous for being sexual for. It would be funny, clever, and somewhat controversial.
- [59:46]
A
But I guess, like, the thing that's interesting to me is I think that this campaign was great in the sense that it reinforced the controversy of this past year, like, they didn't have to go full blown crazy controversial again to get the lift. Like, everyone is talking about it. It was on stories again. And like, it re brings up that initial controversy by like, kind of again, it's like the. If you know, you know, like, it's not.
- [60:12]
B
But that's what a sequel is. Everybody talks about the sequel because it's lazy journalism because it was already controversial. But the sequels ruin brands. If they're not creative, the story's not as good. People are always going to talk about, you know, the sequel of a very popular movie. It's already got media placeholdership. Right. But I don't think because people are talking about it that it's necessarily successful, but it will be successful just because of where they are now.
- [60:38]
A
Yeah. But I guess my question is, like, is that enough? Right? Like, to me, I believe in your exact take. I think the idea you came up with is brilliant. But, like, do they need to do that to get the lift? Like, they're probably still gonna sell a crazy amount of shorts and that allows them to kind of do something kind of probably a bit more hard hitting for the fall leading into Christmas. Because, like, I think the issue is probably with it being a public company, do they want to every single time lean into controversy? Probably not.
- [61:06]
B
There's probably. I don't know what public companies care about is quarterly profits and where they're just where shareholders are disappointed is when they're not.
- [61:14]
A
I feel really torn by this because
- [61:15]
B
I think that the more I think about the image of like short jean shorts that looks like cleavage turned upside down and then the kind of surprise, you know, it's not my cleavage. These are just my shorts, you know,
- [61:26]
A
I think your idea is brilliant. I'm not arguing that your idea isn't brilliant.
- [61:29]
B
Just came up with that off the top of my head.
- [61:31]
A
By the way, I know you're talented. I mean, do you want to. Do you want a sticker? Do you want a star?
- [61:36]
B
Maybe just a little bit of love on the comments.
- [61:37]
A
Okay.
- [61:38]
B
Because I got a lot of hate last week.
- [61:40]
A
Yeah, I just think that's a really interesting perspective of like, do we need it? The other thing that's interesting though is they really created this campaign for Snapchat. And I think when you think about that kind of second screen, you know, if you just see an ad from Sydney Sweeney and it's for American Eagle and it's a similar setting of the last ad. I think sequels are disappointing because they often are just Trying to continue to sell on the idea. And I agree with the comparison that you're making. But to me it still keeps American Eagle top of mind as a brand. That's interesting. That's doing something.
- [62:11]
B
Keeping her is the right decision. She's like, I think one of the most valuable spokespersons for clothing brand in the world right now.
- [62:17]
A
I think this is going to be a moment we look back on in 20 years and it will be, you know, it will be a moment that like lifted the brand up for where it's going.
- [62:24]
B
Not the second campaign, like bring those one.
- [62:28]
A
No, the first one. The first one. And I think they have time to do something kind of crazy again without it needing to be like an every time thing.
- [62:34]
B
The lesson learned for our listeners and people is like you have to say something interesting.
- [62:39]
A
Yeah, true, right. That's a great point.
- [62:40]
B
Like people will try to pressure you into being reasonable. You're fighting for market share. It's a war. You have to say something interesting and take a risk if you want to succeed.
- [62:49]
A
I love that. Well, the last, the last topic was that the follower count is dead and that authenticity is the new metric. We did talk about it earlier. I do think it's worth just, you know, expanding on it a little bit more in that this is a big topic this week within the agency where follower count does give a lot of, you know, in quotations, credibility in the sense of you can come across as bigger and like more established and like more wow. You know, like if you have a lot of followers, it has that wow factor. But I also believe that the zeitgeist is shifting and that more and more people want to support the underdog. Like there's a lot of anxiety for founders that they don't have enough followers to try. And it's such a double edged sword because you also have to try in order to get followers. And I do think that there's a whole movement of people that want to support the up and coming brand to have really good content over having just a lot of followers.
- [63:45]
B
I don't think we're being. The metrics are being looked at the right way. And big companies often go right into financials and look at metrics. Metric, metrics. Yeah, they're hiring kind of creators or people. Even when we look at what we get paid for our speaking, it's like if you have quarter of a million followers, it's one price point. If you have 500, it's another. If it's a million, it's another. But it's Such a simple number to count. And you need to get into the complexity of it. One, it's more about viewership, but I'll talk to you. But two, the quality of the viewers. Like, for example, your viewers are mostly very high functioning, successful people who have a lot of their own followers. But people just see your follower count. Like somebody could have a million followers, but each of those followers has 20 followers. Right. But the valuation of number to value the account should be based also on the quality of the followers, what is their influence, how many followers do they have, how many times are they watching it. Right. And that metric I think a lot of companies are not looking at when it comes to who should I invite to speak at my channel, what should I pay them to speak at my channel? Well, you don't get, you don't have a million followers. We're not going to pay you for this. Right. Whereas if you have, I kind of liken it to. Even just in the military, you could have 100 poorly trained soldiers, but they still have uniforms. And you can have 10 Navy SEALs. Like, I'm going to bet on the 10 Navy SEALs every time. Like it's more value, valuable asset to have on your team. So I think we need to look at that. And I think the metric, what I'm more interested in is number of views in the last 30 days. It's true, right? Not just followers who may not be engaging with you.
- [65:13]
A
Let me chat about that because that's like a really. So a lot of people are disheartened by how many followers they have. And the problem is that like the current ecosphere of social media is not where it once was. It used to be a lot easier to get followers. And that's an objective truth. It's why Instagram has moved to the views on page. It's a metric that's like underneath your bio. The problem is, and it's annoying, only you can see that. The reason why that's relevant is that what the algorithm prefers is engagement and impressions on content. How many views are you generating? So we have a client that we just launched their account. She's 150 followers, but she has 1.1 million views on Paige in the last 30 days. And if you look at all of her videos, they're performing exceptionally well. People don't follow a lot of people in a giving week. It's very rare that you're hitting follow. So what the zeitgeist measures versus what the person consumes is a different metric. And the reason why that's relevant for you to hear and for you to know is it is changing. Instagram's not gonna remove the follower count feature because we still like hierarchy as a human species, but we're dealing with a lot of really huge celebrities that have huge follower accounts that can't sell shit, that can't connect with people and don't have great engagement on their content. And it's so frustrating because I wish I could blow that open for all the people that are listening to it. But people that have micro followers are getting way better engagement than macro accounts. And until you just have to accept the reality that it's imperfect and lean into it and just start doubling down on creating great content. Because you can generate a lot of business and not have a ton of followers and have a ton of followers. You can have a million views and make no money.
- [66:58]
B
You can have a million views of your content in 30 days and not have a lot of followers and make
- [67:02]
A
a lot of money and get a lot of outreach.
- [67:04]
B
But it's that relative deprivation because it's something that is high school ish in that I'm not validated until, like, I even say, see with my followers. Like, when are we going to make a benchmark that seems bigger?
- [67:15]
A
Yeah.
- [67:15]
B
The other thing, I think it's interesting and maybe there's somebody out there who creates an app or somebody in business. There should be a way to rate the followers, because if somebody has, like a lot of followers from eight years ago, it was literally 500% easier to get followers. But if you get a thousand followers in today's world, your content has to be much better than it was in the past. But you can't see that metric when somebody's got 25,000 followers. If they all came in the last two years, that person is really valuable. Right. Whereas if somebody has 500,000 and most of them were gotten in the first two years, eight years ago. Right. They don't have the same engagement. So I'm always looking at it from a business perspective. How do we get better analysis of followers and views online to determine what you're worth?
- [68:01]
A
But it's not like the problem is, like, it doesn't really matter. Like, if you're trying to charge. If you're trying to charge on your page for keels to pay you for a post, like, you're just. You're not gonna beat the influencer that has half a million followers. But if you're a business owner that's trying to sell artisanal soaps, like, it doesn't really matter.
- [68:19]
B
Oh, you're followers. But I'm saying when they hire content creators as well, like the decision to bring on board people who support.
- [68:24]
A
But, like, even that doesn't matter because, like, a lot of people that have all these followers, they also don't necessarily trust what they're pushing. Like, that's another. There's just so much nuance to all of this. Like, if you look at someone that has half a million followers and every, like, often, like every other post is them, like, doing ad with, like, l', Oreal Marcella Water or some shit, the audience is not buying every single post. So although.
- [68:48]
B
And people don't unfollow. They just don't see your posts anymore.
- [68:50]
A
They don't see the content anymore.
- [68:52]
B
So that's where the system is kind of wrong as well. They only unfollow if you say something that hurts their music idol or something. But it's not.
- [68:58]
A
Here's the devil's advocate, though, on the other side, that person who has the half a million followers that is building it up for 12 years, that doesn't have another job and posts five times a day and knows content, they honestly should get the check from L' Oreal from 10 for 10 grand. Because, like, at the end of the day, they are an expert in what they're doing, and they've been doing it for a long time. So it's easy for us to be like, it's bullshit and that new person should make more. But it's like, honestly, though, I wouldn't.
- [69:22]
B
I would encourage. I don't necessarily know that they do, because I don't think there's enough transparency into how many people are gonna see it. But if I was helping.
- [69:30]
A
If l' Oreal has over half a million.
- [69:32]
B
Can I finish my sentence?
- [69:33]
A
L' Oreal can eat that.
- [69:34]
B
I just want everybody to note that she's interrupting me a lot on this podcast.
- [69:38]
A
See, it's true. I have. I've been bossy today.
- [69:40]
B
I like the idea of. Actually, it's probably out there, but I would do. If I was confident with a contract I was negotiating for somebody, I'd say, look, I want to get paid by views. And then you could even get paid by how long they stay on. You know that little chart you get on Instagram when they drop off? Like, that is actual, real performance advertising. So they make a content piece about my product, make it interesting, don't oversell it, and I will pay you X based on how many views and how many people get to the end or to here, that would be a much more effective.
- [70:07]
A
But you know what's interesting about that is that actually a lot of what people are doing is they will, like get the product through Shop my and then they'll do the content. And then the. Once the content piece performs, then the brand reaches out retroactively and they're like, hey, can we negotiate owning rights to that post? So that's happening.
- [70:26]
B
Yeah. Interesting.
- [70:27]
A
So, like, I.
- [70:27]
B
So, yeah, that's. Yeah, that's part of the Gary Vee plan.
- [70:30]
A
Yeah. And that's happening. And like, that's. That's. I would say probably the most like, common is that brands will just do aggressive gifting and then whatever content pieces are the outliers to perform. Double down your budget on those pieces and then like, use those as paid ads or like in feed organization.
- [70:46]
B
Yeah, that's why you have to make so much content.
- [70:48]
A
Well, Camp Snap, they asked if they could get access to our piece of content. Like, I didn't charge them for it. I was like, yeah, absolutely. You guys can, like, use this piece of content. And that's the other thing too, is like, you know, I would have charged
- [70:57]
B
them if I had been included.
- [70:59]
A
The reason I. For those kinds of things, like, the reason why I don't want to is I actually genuinely, like, when we talk organically about a brand and we help a brand, like, I want them to be able to use that. Right. Like, there's a space where we can get paid. And I just feel like that is. We did that piece. It was a great piece of content. And like, they should be able to repost it on their story and, like, got it. You know, and that's the thing too, like, for brands is like, people are like, yeah, but like, what is it gonna cost? I don't want to do it if we don't know. Like, just do the damn thing. If you get 100 people that do it, there might be 10 or 15 that have the mindset like, Camille. Right. Like, if you're giving them free stuff, like, they're gonna. And Camp Snoff sent us a camera and we were super happy with that. That's amazing.
- [71:38]
B
Cool.
- [71:38]
A
Cool. Well, that's it for this week. I'm so sorry for, you know, cutting you off. I really wanna make sure that I apologize.
- [71:45]
B
Look, I think it's good for me to experience real time mansplaining from a woman.
- [71:50]
A
Oh, God.
- [71:50]
B
So, you know, I think. I think.
- [71:52]
A
I don't know if that's what it was.
- [71:53]
B
I think on the ledger sheet, like, I'VE got a lot of that coming. Cause I think I've interrupted you quite a bit over the years.
- [71:59]
A
Well, I hope everyone had a fantastic week. And we will see you next week.
- [72:02]
B
Guys, till next time, where do you brand.