B (2:15)

The bread, the pasta, I don't know what it is about it, but somebody tell Us why you don't get fat from the carbs and you don't get hangover from the wine.

A (2:24)

Honestly, we gotta shout out to our friends at Discover Ag, give us the answer. Give us the answer. And also, like, just, I feel like you haven't lived unless you really experience the food and the design and the architecture and the art.

B (2:38)

In Italy, it's a total package because the attitude, but the quality of the product is amazing. Like how they just, they will not allow you to rush. You know, as somebody who studied culture, it's amazing because you're in a rush. You go up to somebody and you're like, where is this? And they're like, oh, bon Jo. They insist on you taking the time to be a human rather than just focus on getting stuff done quickly.

A (3:00)

True. It's also why we celebrate them for Leonardo da Vinci, which was a very long time ago.

B (3:05)

Fair enough.

A (3:08)

But I do want to talk about the Grand Tro. If you're looking for an excuse to really experience a fantastic brand, look no further than the Gran Tremezzo. We were actually like 50, 50 on it because we do love experiencing great hotels. But I'm so sick of being catfished, which was actually our hotel in Florence. We totally got catfished on that one. And it sucks when you spend a lot of money and you don't have that fantastic experience. But Gran Chimezzo is absolutely fabulous. And it is a case study on why you, you're. The brands that are successful and that exist for over a hundred years are those that focus on the details. Like success leaves clues.

B (3:48)

Yeah. It's hard to quantify too, because when I look at all these businesses, I'm always thinking, is that worth it or is this worth it? And you can't think of it like, is it worth it today? As opposed to what the long term value of the brand is when you make the small details exceptional.

A (4:02)

When I knew, when I said a really great brand is when it's expensive to stay there. Right. It's anywhere from 2 grand to 3500 a night. Like, it's not a cheap hotel. And typically when you're at hotels of that pedigree or caliber, there's almost like an eye rolling to like the gaucheness of brand on brand. Right. Like most women walking around are just like, it's a proverbial salad of designer brands. You know, YSL sunglasses and Celine shirt and Chanel beach bag and Chloe shoes. Like, they're just wearing so many different brands. What was really cool about this hotel is that the, the logo for the hotel became the ultimate status signaler. So all these women that were sitting at the pool, they were all using the free beach bag they give you in the hotel room. That is just branded Gran Turmezzo.

B (4:53)

Yeah, like, that's. I thought that was the coolest thing is that people actually left behind their branded bags and used a trag. But I think the takeaway is don't do things cheap if you want to have a good brand. Because the turmezzo bag was, was a high quality bag.

A (5:06)

That's actually like the. The great next point to this is you need to invest in swag that people want to steal. And that's what most brands miss is they're so focused on the roi, you know, like, what are we? And I'm. They're trying to save a buck. But when you actually create swag or branded things that are so good that people want to take it, how more valuable that is for your brand and like, what is that worth?

B (5:32)

And people should think about, like, think of the swag in your life, where you've gone, places. Like there are some pieces of swag that you cherish and you keep and there's most of it that just gets thrown out. Like, I don't need another crappy pen when I go to a golf tournament. Like, I don't know why people are spending money on useless swag that I'm never gonna keep. Like, there's. So if you're gonna do swag, do it in a way that has an impression. Don't do it just because you think you have to do it.

A (5:56)

I totally. Well, and a perfect example of this is we ended up buying the towels in the gift shop because we low key were going to steal them, but we didn't have enough luggage in our bags. Cause we were going to Florence and Tuscany. But, um, so we had them like shipped to the house and they just showed up. But we totally thought about stealing them. And the best part about it is it's. They're in our backyard where we have a pool and they're bright orange and they've got the cool like art deco white piping that is so iconic to both the hotel and to Italy. But think about how many people were gonna tell that story and relive that experience. And now it's such a special memory. More than all, like we say a ton of hotels all year. I'm. I'm going to want to go back for a milestone moment in my life because of how much care and detail they put into the fricking pool towels.

B (6:44)

Yeah. And those blankets that go on the lounge beds. Just pure luxury.

A (6:49)

Pure luxury. And just every single thing they did was. So it's a master class in having taste. And that's what people can't buy. When you talk about wanting to, like, have a great brand, there's a luck element, there is a science element, and then there's that, like, je ne sais quoi of taste that, like, you're born with, you can't. You can't buy and you can't fake.

B (7:10)

It doesn't come from a business at school.

A (7:12)

No.

B (7:12)

And that's the problem. Like, taste comes from this curated experience with some people who have the eye. Everything about that hotel just was beautiful.

A (7:21)

And what I love the most is the way that they designed it with. With the richness and color. It complemented the landscape. So, yes, the hotel is fantastic, but it's fantastic because it's so well curated. And that's what's hard to find is, like, there's no shortage of, like, nice hotels that almost have, like, this stock. Same, like, muted nude tones with, like, marble. Like, if you think about, like, standard JW Marriott, they're, like, almost all the same. And like, they're nice, but they're it. They're not special. And the way that they approach the curation of color and detail and design. There are things in life that are worth the splurge of spending money and every moment. When I woke up, that hotel was magical. Like, it was a magical place.

B (8:05)

And I don't want to make it so that you can only do this if it. If you're rich. Like, you can make the experience for your totally. You can make the experience for your customer feel luxurious or feel rich in your own environment by paying attention to the details. But the question I want to ask you when I. That orange. I never thought I loved orange. Right. But the. Or why. Why do you think that that orange was so appealing to me or to anybody in that environment?

A (8:31)

Because it's actually a really good question. It's because orange sits on the opposite end of the spectrum of blue. So there's a lot to color theory that business owners don't understand when they're thinking about rebranding their company. And you have to understand there'. A. There's a science to contrast. So Lake Como is very blue. And it's even the green of, like, the mountains. It almost has, like, a blue haze to it. Like, it's a. It's a very bluish landscape. And with it being blue and green, the opposite color on that spectrum is orange. So that's why the color complemented it so well. It really popped with the landscape of where it was positioned. But the other thing that makes orange so rich is that orange fades in the sun. So a hotel like Gran Tramezzo is, it is a huge cost that they have to replace all of those towels, all probably their umbrellas, their lounge circle, like beanbag things almost yearly. Yearly.

B (9:29)

Because that or that's what I was thinking is like that orange in its vibrancy with the contrast is striking.

A (9:35)

It's rich and it's hard to find in nature because one, that orange doesn't really exist. But two, that vibrancy, it loses it with sun in actually somewhat of a short order. But that's the thing that's interesting when we talk about. You had posed an esoteric question because a lot of their elements, the design elements they have, you were like, why doesn't you know, like a Marriott do this? You know, like if they just invested in like six of these beautiful like orange ornate pool things, like how much that would elevate the space. And I'm like, that's. But that's also the issue is that the reason why it worked for Gran Turmezzo and for, for properties like that is because they understand the art of the brand. Like you can't. It's so hard to find in real life or in the wild these places that are like spending disproportionately in areas that you can't find that direct ROI on the line sheet. Like businesses are perpetually trying to cut corners. Which makes sense from an in the now perspective. But when you talk about creating a lasting legacy, like how do you measure the endorphins that were released for like the way that they, they groomed the property. Like it just, it, it's so complicated to measure those things. But it's the difference between that name having such a great name versus the other 25 properties on that street that nobody talks about.

B (10:59)

It reminds me a little bit. When I was in university, I created this company called University Canopy Cleaners because I saw people spent a lot of money on those canopies on those downtown streets. And then I just remember walking down there like while I'm in undergrad thinking, look at how dirty and worn out they are. But they cost a huge amount to put on. But then they weren't maintaining them. Like, so what's the point of having a beautiful front facing element of your business? But then let it look like shit. You know, it's just like sweeping the front of your business, taking care of those small details. And so you have to make sure in your business that your front facing element of it is appealing and is maintained totally.

A (11:36)

And, but I even think about, you know, when you go to the Hazleton patio, you know, in Toronto and like how well like how much they've invested in that outdoor patio and like the, how good quality the seats are and like how good that real estate is. Like when, when business owners are struggling and they don't understand why they're constantly fighting to survive. It's because they're not a category king. It's because they're not focusing on a clear point of difference that makes them special, that makes them stand out and that, that allows them to own a majority of market share and it's, you don't need to be at the top end luxury to be able to do it. Like if we talk about these hotels that we're discussing, like what would be the cost if they had the like the highest end, most plush embroidered towels in Florida, like we would rebook that hotel in a heartbeat and you would go home and you talk it and you share about it, like that's where true marketing lives.

B (12:31)

Love it. So how do you compare that with our Florence experience?

A (12:35)

Florence is also like a busy city. So Florence is annoying because those cities, your dollar doesn't really go very far. You know, like a hotel that's like relatively expensive isn't as nice for the price point that you're paying for. So we stated that there was nothing wrong with it, it just, it wasn't nearly as fabulous. But we did sell our floor because in Florence.

B (12:56)

Tramezzo, you're going to stay at Tremezzo.

A (12:58)

Yeah.

B (12:58)

Like you don't need to leave. Everything is. But in Florence you're in high, high value real estate and you're not supposed to really stay in your hotel.

A (13:06)

True, right.

B (13:07)

Because there's so much to do in the town. Like the food was very affordable and amazing.

A (13:11)

Florence was amazing. Museums, the art, the fashion, the, the history. Florence was incredible. However, if people are continuing to look, to splurge, look no further than, than to Camille, because I know how to spend money. But the Florence Four Seasons, that was increable. Like I actually really understood Florence design, like how much color they use in. I've seen a lot of vignettes of that style and I didn't realize that it was from Florence Florinian and it was very cool because the Four Seasons does such a great job of capturing that place and, like, almost maximizing it. So it was very cool to see the. The range of colors. Very different kind of colors. More pinks, blues, greens.

B (13:59)

But our favorite meal in Florence was, like, a small hole in the wall.

A (14:02)

Oh, totally. I mean, you don't eat it Four Seasons. Like, you. You go off the beaten path, like, in those kinds of places.

B (14:07)

You know, that little restaurant was so cool where they had tomato plants at the front window, like that, that pasta was.

A (14:13)

And if anyone is going, I'm gonna have it updated in my Instagram post of all the, like, places that we went to. So. Because honestly, we. We. We curate good trips. We curate good trips. And I'll also tell you where you shouldn't go, which I think there's not enough people that, like, there's so many people that are purchased online that are, like, telling you to go somewhere because, like, they got it for free, but we don't do that. So.

B (14:34)

Although I'm happy to stay at the Trimezzle for free or the Four Seasons, but.

A (14:38)

Well, wouldn't that be the dream? I want to kick it off by talking about Apple. A lot has happened since we chatted about it before we took off. I know you want to talk about that vanilla commercial. Let's start there, because I want to influencer strategy for Apple.

B (14:52)

I think Google has some good brains working on a. On a plan to try and knock iPhone off of their perch because iPhone is vulnerable. They're like an empire that is crumbling, and so they're. They're looking to break into it. And that commercial on vanilla echoes what we talked about when we talk. When we mentioned the new Topia billboard and they just showed. They showed a billboard just saying, like, new version of vanilla. And so people are constantly upgrading phones and they're not getting any value from.

A (15:20)

It, But I just don't think the commercial was good enough. I think the commercial was vanilla.

B (15:25)

You mean the Google commercial was vanilla?

A (15:27)

Yeah, I think it kind of speaks to, like, the larger problem that we see behind the scenes of brands is that businesses want to be bold, but they don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. So it's like this fake politeness where we're gonna go out and we're, like, going to try to, like, talk about why your product sucks, but we're not really gonna do it in an impactful way, so no one's gonna really see it. And it's only gonna. It's only gonna change a significant small portion of the population when People are so hungry for anti Apple messaging because it's, they're so correct. Like it's, I've been really digging into Apple quite a bit and how much Apple has changed with the introduction of Tim Cook and how really he's no longer focused on innovation, he's focused on subscription revenue. Like it's a completely different model than what Apple was. And that's worth discussing. Like that's worth. Especially when Apple has become almost too big to fail. Like it's so ingrained into our lives.

B (16:24)

Well, Apple has lost about 25 to 30% of their value over the last year. Like, so it is experiencing some issues. But just getting back to Google, Google's powerful. But Google was infected by the kind of safe political mindset. And so I can tell that they're smart people in, in this ad campaign, but they're, they have a governor on them of, of, of going far enough to win. So that, that vanilla commercial was great. And to speak to your point, but if you have a committee that's, everybody is chiming in with, oh, this might upset somebody or this is too risky or whatever, you're not really going to make it. And the beauty of Florence just going back there is. One of my philosopher inspirations when I was younger was Niccolo Machiavelli and we were able to go visit some of his spots there. But he had a, he had a phrase that seems aggressive but it's. People are either at your throat or at your feet. And so I don't advise going half in. If you're going to go take on iPhone, you got to go all in. You have to be prepared to burn your ships because you're going after an empire and it seems like they're kind of dabbling in an attack on iPhone. Whereas Apple didn't dabble when they attacked IBM.

A (17:34)

No. Or Microsoft.

B (17:35)

Like they, they went at them and, and it seems like that corporate boardroom is restricting Google from achieving their aim.

A (17:41)

Well, here's the issue. Number one, the vanilla ice cream looked delicious. So it, it made me want the vanilla ice cream. Number two, like taking a stab that like the new iPhone is just vanilla and that the last one was vanilla. It actually takes too many brain cells because when everyone's walking around with vanilla ice cream cones and you're saying the new product is vanilla, you're not positioning anyone having a super kid ice cream or a chocolate or a strawberry or like they're, they're just. It wasn't quite good enough. You know, like you should start seeing people start walking around with like UBE ice cream cones that are like purple with like the charcoal cones. And then people are like, ooh, what's that? And like, no, but.

B (18:23)

And you're paying UBE ice cream prices for vanilla. You know, like, that's the.

A (18:27)

It just, it wasn't good enough. Like, there's thinking there. But it's, it's the issue of why Apple continues to reign. Because Apple is tricking the rat brain. Like the website, the design, it's, it's world class. Like the way that Apple approaches design, the way that Apple approaches like rollouts. I want to talk about how Apple has completely changed their rollout model. Apple didn't have an influencer before 2017. They did not, they did not gift people's products because they operate as like a luxury brand. Like, they were like, we're too good. We don't need to do this. We don't need your influence. And in 2017, they started doing more selective gifting. So it, it was actually an intelligent move because they were resisting the change of what happening. Like, people are consuming information from creators online, so they didn't actually give them to influencers. It was mostly to creators. So like people that were like in tech and gadgets and that was super smart. But then in 2019, they actually started giving the MacBook Pros to YouTubers. Right? So they actually started handing the more expensive products over to YouTubers. And then they did, in 2022, they started giving over the Apple watches. And then basically now they're now gifting and iPhones to like literally everybody. Like, like literally everybody. Like, if you have, like, if you're someone that is like somewhat influential, you're being sent an iPhone. And it's interesting because from a desirability standpoint, I've never, from a rap, like a rap brain, I've never wanted it more because I've never seen like more influencers, like holding it, talking about it, posting about it. But it's only because they're just showing it to more like that you're seeing it more versus it being a better product.

B (20:07)

If you go back and you analyze it in hindsight, you can see where the brand is losing it. Because when you don't give it to anybody, it's because you don't need to. Yeah, right. But when you're in this kind of public corporation, quarterly profit thing, you have to keep, you have to keep the sales going. So now you have to give it to influencers to increase the sales. You have to convince people why they need to buy the next years. Right. As opposed to hold on to an amazing product for three years. So it shows all the indexes that the company cares more about profitability than brand strength. And I think that that's, that's echoed in everything. The, the case study that we looked at is why does Apple's AI suck so much? And, you know, we're able to find.

A (20:47)

They don't even have AI still.

B (20:49)

But a couple years ago, there was a proposal by the design team to invest in AI. It would have cost, I think, $40 billion. And the financial people behind it said no because it was too expensive. They said, we won't do our own. We'll just use existing. The same year, they spent $80 billion on stock option buybacks for their investors. So they pleased their investors at the expense of developing the product that we need. Right. The first iPhones were amazing. Jobs made sure they were designed and it was a spectacular product. Now they're not as focused on product or focused on profitability.

A (21:22)

It's interesting because even the way that they've designed this phone, you can tell that they've made it more visually interesting for Instagram. Right? Like how the way that I'm seeing the photography on socials, like how the brands are jumping on for like visualizing the phone, it's, it's become a status signaler for like how you're taking selfies and, and it's, it's an interesting predicament that I face because from a purist standpoint, Apple has clearly lost its way. Right? Like, they're just. It was smart for them to move into creators and not influencers. And that difference is, is important for you to know the difference. Influencers are people who, like, are more that have a platform of influen influence. So people go to them like mommy bloggers or like lifestyle or fashion people. Like, they're influential in what? In their category. Creators are more people like us. Like, we're creating content. So yes, you know, we could recommend that you try a new app and we might influence you, but we're more creators of content than influencers. So when Apple was providing the first products, they were actually giving it to creators. And it was intelligent because you would have creators breaking down the new text backs they would, like, be going through. Like, because Apple did these like, long keynotes and the attention span is so short. So giving them to people to show you the new app updates was an intelligent move. But where I have a predicament with this is there's a lot that brands can learn from on the power of gifting and how complicated it is to measure because when you just give away so many products and there's so. And you're just seeing so much of it online, what that does to your brain in like from a FOMO standpoint because you feel like you're being left out because everybody has it and you don't.

B (22:58)

If I don't think the strategy is to give it to everybody, you go broke.

A (23:02)

No, no, not to everybody. Obviously not to everybody. But to a 250, 100, a thousand people. Right. Like I'm not. When I say Apple's giving it to everybody, I don't mean they're actually giving it to everybody that doesn't.

B (23:13)

They're giving it to people online who could be seen on it. But yeah, I just think it's, I think it's a dying brand and this is the last acts of desperation where you have to start giving it away to get, to keep conning people to buy it.

A (23:25)

Totally.

B (23:26)

Google's not taking advantage of it, but you're totally correct.

A (23:29)

I just, I want to take a separate approach to that because I have a lot of clients that are constantly asking of like how do I get that tipping point. But they're also not prepared to gift or to give away 100 products. Now obviously price point is relevant like what is your cost of goods etc. But there actually is a. It's interesting in talks with actually people at TikTok, they said that the average kind of the number for getting that, that virality is seeding 90 pieces of product. So it's not that all 90 are going to go viral, but it's almost like a slot machine that if you like hit it with at enough times and you put enough money into it, you will get your money back. And the idea is that around what they've found in their data is that when you've gifted it to around 90 creators like TikTok creators who don't have to have big.

B (24:17)

The right ones.

A (24:18)

The right ones, you will have that viral breakout moment.

B (24:22)

If Google or Samsung wants to knock them off quicker, they have to do something dangerous.

A (24:27)

That's what I was gonna say. Yeah.

B (24:28)

Right. So like and I don't know if you're gonna get that from within and I don't know that there's a lot of agencies out there that are going to suggest the right type of strategy to knock them off.

A (24:38)

Well the problem with agencies is that they're not actually looking to be controversial. Right. They're, they're because they're also, and in fairness to them, they're also reading the room right. Like they're getting paid to often regurgitate the whole. The CMO of the internal company who thinks they're a genius. And that's, that's the problem. But that's where I wanted to go with this is the problem right now in marketing at the biggest level is that no one is prepared to say anything to piss anybody off. And because of that, nothing breaks through. So the, the players are continuing to win that are just having a slow death because Google and Android are not prepared to do anything interest. Oh, interesting. Also, have you seen Android? They have like eight different lines of each of their. I mean, a bit dramatic, but eight different lines of each of their phones. They have like the Z flip, they have the V flip, they have the half flip. Like, they just have so many. They have like an abundance of an overwhelming number of SKUs. So like, they're also not a great competitor. It really needs to be the Tesla phone that comes in.

B (25:37)

Oh, well, we've talked about this before. The iPhone is the same for a billionaire as it is for a kid who's spoiled in high school. Like, you know, Somebody produced a $20,000 phone that only communicates versus satellite and is purely secure. Like, you can, you can market that. But what we're seeing in businesses is, unfortunately, their marketing teams are comprised almost entirely of Democrats. And I say that a little tongue in cheek, but it's like a sociology department in a university. There's not one conservative in there like you'd have. You'd have a better chance of seeing a unicorn than a conservative sociology professor. And what that does is it undermines the ability to expand on that area of study because people on both sides often have good insights. But if you're not prepared to engage with people who disagree with you, you're not going to get the best solutions. And in these marketing departments, the big companies and the big agencies, they don't have people who have another way of thinking. And the left has become an expert at marketing to itself. And so, yeah, they're in this circular pattern of getting reinforced. Oh, my God, that's amazing. But they're not speaking to their potential customers. They're not. They're not being effective new customers. Potential customers. New customers. Like, they're not that. The best solutions come from the conflict of ideas. So you need to get people in the room who have different opinions, different ways of looking at the world, and then be prepared to have to have a conflict of Ideas to get these strategies that can make a difference. But right now people are in echo chambers and you know, the shareholders aren't seeing what the long term results are. It's not effective. And this is plaguing marketing right now is you don't have enough divergent opinions to come up with solutions that can make the difference for the company.

A (27:18)

Well, it's actually why I was really impressed with the Tiger, which we're going to talk about with Gucci. And you're so right. There's, there's an element to it of, of everyone is on zoom and like everyone has tabs open and nobody wants to rock the boat. It's, it's not, it's not welcomed to have alternative opinions and perspectives. It comes across as like aggressive if you disagree. It's, it's, and it's really problematic for companies that are trying to make money because when you're trying to make money, you have to do things that actually like stand out, that allow people to have an opinion, a perspective. Like that's why the Google commercial is like, you were so close but you didn't say anything and why aren't you saying anything? Like the timing has never been better for like someone's going to do it and it's not cool when three years from now and people are like actually like certifiedly pissed off with Apple, it's not cool to do it. Then it's cool to do it like to become a part of that changing tide.

B (28:17)

There's a reason why people say I'm Spartacus because that first person stood up and said I'm Spartacus. You have to watch the movie to understand it. But there's no glory in joining the parade at the end of it. You know what I mean? There's no glory in taking the safe option. Like there's glory in putting your neck out there and doing something dramatic to change your shareholders world.

A (28:39)

But even if you just hear things that are like that are, that are different, that are controversial, that allow you what people don't realize, it's that Olympic difference, you know, it's, it's that last 10%. You were talking last night at dinner about the Michelin, right, the Michelin guide, the Michelin restaurants, and how brilliant it was for a tire company to produce a place of restaurants worth driving to and how that ended up becoming the gold standard of what restaurants achieve to get to, period. Right? And when you think about that level of idea making, like how bold that was, you know, like how, how much that pushed boundaries, how it Got outside of their lanes. How interesting it was. Like, what is that idea worth to a company? Well, to Michelin, it's, it's everything because it's what's maintained and made it such a prolific brand. But you don't get those caliber of ideas if you're not in rooms with critical thinking that in produces different levels of perspectives.

B (29:37)

I don't think I would have ever watched the Tiger on my own, like from my own thing. But you said let's watch the Tiger. And I love brands at Gucci, but watching that, I was incredibly impressed by what they did with that short movie. Like blown away by it at so many levels. And it shows you. What I'd like to get across people is it shows you that when you do things well and you're willing to kind of of take on difficult things, you can appeal to people outside of just your current echo chamber like that. The way they did the Tiger really appealed to me. It was, it was fantastic. It made me like Gucci way more than I did before.

A (30:13)

Well, it's really crazy because I actually wanted to watch the film to make a hit piece on it. I was not anticipating it to be as good as it was. And, and to give it more credit, they actually did a fantastic job of showcasing like liberal ideologies in a way that it's about time. Like they did such a great job of poking at all sides of introducing and welcoming all perspectives, all walks of life. It was really a well executed concept. And what I love the most from a risk taking standpoint is they did this instead of a Runway show. So instead of doing what, what every brand does four times a year, they did just, they built the cinema and they had Gucci popcorn and they invited and they showcased the film and then it ended up becoming available. Did we get it on YouTube or was it on Prime YouTube? YouTube. We got it on YouTube. It's projected to have been about $10 million in spend, which is probably what a Runway show costs.

B (31:16)

Far more, far more.

A (31:17)

And it's so much more impactful because think about Runway shows like, like how many people is that really reaching outside of a very small sphere of people? And it's just so overdone.

B (31:27)

That goes to the echo chamber. You're just speaking to the people who are in the industry. You're hoping to get the same, you know, fashion reporters writing something on it based on whatever it was. But I don't think my, my perception of the tiger, I don't think it was speaking to liberal values at all. I I think it was unpoliticized, but it was just a commentary on fashion. It actually kind of took people who were at the extremes and just showcased them being themselves without a judgment at all. Like, it was, it was so it was very accessible to me because it wasn't force feeding how to think to me, it was just showing me a reality, you know, of Demi and all of those people.

A (32:06)

I guess the only thing that I. That I can respect about it is they checked all the boxes in a way that it. I didn't feel like they were force feeding, checking the boxes. And that is my criticism of most, most TV these days is it's like you can tell that they just threw something in so that they didn't get comments of it online. But this was such a well constructed story. What I love the most about the tiger though, is it was very artistic but had a. It had a really interesting storyline. But a lot of the scenes really emulated like iconic Gucci ads that were like in vogue. Like it was very aesthetically on brand to the brand and everyone was wearing like Gucci pieces. But it didn't feel like it was a forced. It wasn't forced. It was just. It was. They didn't try to make it so Gucci. There was just enough Gucci there that it was like cool.

B (32:57)

So they broke the fourth wall. They took two dimensional historical ad campaigns and then incorporated it into a three dimensional or four dimensional movie. Because you're trying to figure out what the heck is going on on it. Yeah, you're trying to figure out are they taking themselves seriously? Is this not serious? To me, that's the beauty of art. Art exists on the fringes, you know, where you make fun of your own decadence or debauchery. Right.

A (33:19)

But then Gucci owned California and California was going to shit. Like, it was actually funny.

B (33:23)

Like, and it reinforced the fact that these premium brands operate kind of on the fringe of decadence or debauchery. Like, and it made it appealing to me in a way that I would never have been moved by an ad or by watching a fashion show.

A (33:37)

Well, and it's cool too, because you didn't know how crazy Gucci's story really was. Which, if you haven't watched, watch the Gucci movie. It's actually better to watch. We saw it on YouTube as well. Right. It was like a Gucci documentary. It's better than the movie. Not that the movie was bad, it's just the movie was trying to make a story and this is just more factual and it was a really interesting documentary. But what I respect even more is that the movie made it about like a Gucci family. And there was like, Gucci characters, but it had nothing to do with the real craziness of their family story. It's just like, it actually makes me want to cry, truthfully, because I find it very hard for us to praise a lot of brands because they're not prepared to really push the boundaries, say, and do something different. And it was just. I'm so glad that someone at that level just really did something that was different, unique, and will really bring Gucci.

B (34:32)

Back because it's easy just to do something ridiculous on the Runway, like make a hat that's too big or something. Right? But. But this was art. The way they made a story, that 45 minutes was pure entertainment.

A (34:43)

I want to watch it again.

B (34:44)

It was pure entertainment. I'm not sure I get what the tiger is yet. You know, we need to look at it again.

A (34:49)

That's what's cool about it. The other thing too, that I want to say, which is like an interesting full circle. Florence is really a center point for a lot of those Italian brands. And it was really cool being in Florence and seeing their, like, HQs, but also they're like prime shopping locations. And the stuff that was in those stores, like, I find Gucci in America, it just almost looks like a. A different version of Victoria's Secret. Like there's this like, jank. Like it's just kind of like janky. Like it's dark. There's like nothing really in it and it doesn't articulate luxury. The Gucci's, the Prada, like those brands in Florence, it's almost like they had different stuff because I really understood the brands when I was there. Like there was. I really wanted to go inside. And it makes me happy that they did this in such a great way because I don't want those brands to die. Like, I don't. I don't want to on Gucci and. And these LVMH brands. Like, I want there to be this semblance of like, greatness and branding, and we're losing sight of it.

B (35:50)

What the movie did that was. Was appealing to me is it put Gucci in a great story that had exceptional cinematography, exceptional writing, beautiful casting. But, like, you go into a Gucci store and if all you see is like logos of Gucci everywhere, you just get overwhelmed. Like, nothing seems special about the store. Like, the way that they presented their stuff. It did seem beautifully curated.

A (36:14)

It really did. And I think another really thing was interesting about Florence I want to touch on is like, actually the power of the brand because there was so many, like an insane amount of fine leather shops, and you walk by them and all you can smell is like that strong scent of leather. And it was interesting to be in that home city where there's really just like the most famous leather workers come out of Florence. And to understand that, like brands like Bottega Veneta and Prada. And Prada was famous for nylons. Let me do that again. So Bottega, Veneta and Gucci and these brands, they came out of this place. And the difference, when you go into these stores, the bags are beautiful, the leather is high quality, but the difference of what, what made them stand out is the brand.

B (37:04)

Well, I think also, though, the cauldron of when you put the best in leather curators together, right. What it does is create a competition that, that inspires excellence, right. And that's why they come out of these centers of excellence, is that the brands that survive, it's because their product ultimately is the best and they have the best story.

A (37:25)

But you can't really say that it's the best when it's all cow leather, right? Like, they're all selling cow leather bags, right. And when I, we went to the University of the Leather Makers in Florence. So cool. And we were going in, I was walking by, like, that's a YSL bowling bag. That's the Alma Louis Vuitton bag. And. And these shapes that have become prolific from these brand houses were being made by this, this top and this, these bags are probably pre YSL taking the shape because it's like a medieval school. It's been there forever. And my point is, is that the difference between what makes that YSL bag be sold for €3,600 to it being sold for 300. Like, I literally picked up an Hermes, like, Kelly bag that was the identical, same leather, €200. Because it doesn't have the brand on it. It's the brand. And that's why when we talk about brand, like there's. It's so powerful, you can't touch it. But it makes someone spend, whether or not you think it's smart, like an insane amount more money on the product because it means something to who they are as a person. But I also want to say that as a way to encourage you because a lot of these, these brands that have made it over these past, you know, few hundred years, they are dying. And we are looking for great new brands to emerge. Like I don't want to buy a YSL purse. I think the YSL purses are trash. I want to buy a the next version of Bottega Veneta. But I require you to work harder on your brand because I'm. How hard is it for me to sift through thousands of leather shops in Italy to hope to find you like you need to invest in a brand.

B (39:05)

I think the takeaway a little bit is marketing is a bit of a sand trap to use a golf reference for small or building businesses like and they look at it at that transactional. Let's just buy ads and we might get some sales. But you're not investing in your brand whereas so they're spending money on marketing. But it's. Your sales are only going to exist if you keep spending money on this transaction. You're not building a brand. And I think more small and medium sized businesses need to focus more on their product and their customer experience. Right. And not feel obligated to spend money on transactional marketing when they're not building a brand that's going to pay off in 10 years. Like good investments pay off in 10 years.

A (39:45)

Totally agree with you. Totally agree with you. So let's talk about the age of affiliates. So this past week two huge companies both launched in house affiliate networks and it's actually a large change and shift in the market space that it's worth talking about. So Sephora launched my Sephora storefront and Vogue also launched a program called vat. And basically what both of these companies are doing is they're now cutting out the middleman. So like to know it and shop my are two behemoths in the space and they basically connect with most of the brands so that when I post this photo of me wearing this Alexis dress, I can tag Alexis and then if you buy it by liking the photo and getting it sent to your app, I get commission off of the sale. Sephora makes so much money on influencers posting about their products on TikTok and Instagram. It's actually what generates the majority of their discoverability in like viral products. Is someone on YouTube or TikTok posting about this new product, they've now moved to actually creating it in house to cut out that third party so that they have 15% commissions. They're keeping them. What's interesting about the way that Sephora did it is that they didn't spend like a billion dollars in like building being dramatic but building their own platform. They actually just went through basically this like these AI based coding platforms are cropping up everywhere and it's it. The reason I'm talking about this is as small and medium sized businesses, this is so powerful for you to get ahead of because it's never been less expensive to keep more money in your pocket and to replicate what's working at the biggest, the highest level. So the thing that's really interesting is that they just use this program called modem which any small business can use and they've just basically because AI can help you replicate code so much faster instead of having to hire like a coding team to build it for you and like to work with all the bug breaks. So I'm actually, actually shocked it took them this long to move over to these platforms. But modem is like accessible for like any size business. And there's so many of them. There's like replic, there's a whole list of them. If you Google them or ask Chachi BT like how to do it. But it's almost no cost to a company.

B (41:56)

You know what I noticed there is in the past you used to say Google it. Now we're starting Google it or ask ChatGPT. We're getting closer to just Chat GPT it like that word.

A (42:05)

I honestly hardly, hardly use Google.

B (42:07)

Yeah.

A (42:08)

At this point I find Chat GPT can send you a rye, like when you're looking for restaurants and it will say like this place is open and it's really good and then it's closed on Mondays. Or like it's, it hasn't been open in like two years. Like I find that Chat GPT sometimes on searchability because Google has the Google my business.

B (42:27)

Yeah. I was just thinking, you know what chat GPT should start doing is allowing businesses to register.

A (42:31)

Yeah.

B (42:32)

Like getting their info. Because I don't. Google probably has some gateways to some of that information they get through Google. My business that Chat GPT can't get.

A (42:39)

The thing that sucks is that I get asked so many times, my business owners, like, how do you get chat GPT to recommend you? And the thing that sucks so much is that chat GPT's recommendation is based on like outdated PR. So like how much PR you have. And the thing that sucks is to get PR today is so expensive because they're just bleeding cash. So like to get a Forbes article is like $5,000 and then you're gonna spend $25,000 to get all of these articles in hopes that ChatGPT might index you. Like it kind of sucks in that way because ChatGPT can only go off of like, traditional indexing. Yeah.

B (43:19)

So you're not working with influencers either. Like, Chat GPT should find a way to start getting access from human beings to throw better information in on these types of, these types of things, like recommendations.

A (43:31)

Well, it's really interesting because there almost should be like a separate platform from ChatGPT where you can like, feed it information so you can say, like, look, we went to this restaurant. It was actually kind of gimmicky. Like, it was super touristy. It has a ton of reviews because the, the owner sits at the door and like, hands you a TripAdvisor code and like, asks you to scan it versus, like, this place was actually like a really good. If, you know, you know, like, it'd be cool if they had a separate platform to feed in info to than to just like, receive it.

B (44:04)

Yeah, that's interesting. At some point, Chat GBD should be focusing on who are good candidates for doing, you know, Google review. They kind of encourage you to leave Google reviews that give you points and all that stuff. It'd be interesting to move there for them.

A (44:16)

Well, the thing that's the only thing that's like, nuanced about that is like, like think about how many people there are, you know, like, who's the right person to give a recommendation to your mom, you know, versus, like, what you and I are looking for. Right? Like, there's, there's a lot of. There's a lot of people that are looking for a lot of different things. That's why I think you should have a better feeder system.

B (44:34)

You would think Chat GPT because they know what you're searching, what you're talking about, where you're going. You know what I mean? They should be able to analyze the users who are using ChatGPT to know the ones using AI to know the ones who'd be the best to give reviews.

A (44:47)

Well, that's where I feel like it's not going to happen from like an entry trust standpoint. But, like, really, I would give up all of that stuff to be like, fully interconnected. Like, I would love for ChatGPT to have like my Instagram, like all the things I like, like what I save, what I post, like knowing what's in my closet. Like I would like what I order groceries, like my Instacart's connected to it.

B (45:08)

Because then the AI can work better for you.

A (45:10)

You know what I meant to talk about when we were talking about the Apple front, which is really an interesting, interesting pivot that they're going into, which I hate to say I think is smart. They're really doubling down on privacy and security and being like the safe choice for moms. So the way that they just launched the like new Apple AirPods and like, the new phone is like very focused on like, it has like bumpers that there's like straps and they have like all these moms that are like showing using it, like how secure the, the phone is and everything is about. They have all these like moms you've never seen in Apple ads talking about like the best privacy and security, like for your family. So it's a really interesting move for them to move away from like being the bright, shiny, like super cool tech object to being like the vanilla safe object, which is like, interesting.

B (45:59)

I was doing a case study with a group that I was doing some coaching with and we were discussing the paperclip game. Are you familiar with that?

A (46:05)

Never heard of it, no.

B (46:06)

So the paperclip, it's not a game, but it's a, it's a competition. And it, it's been used in some biz schools to kind of see how, how effective you are growing. So what they'll do is they'll give 50 people a paperclip. And the rules are you can't use cash, but you have one day to come back and see what you could trade up to from the paperclip. So we're given a paperclip and you're, you're sent out in a mall and now you have to trade your paperclip for something else. Right. And then you want to keep seeing if you can trade up. So you get your paperclip, you trade up for something else, then what you have, you trade up for. Right. Have you heard of that ever?

A (46:43)

I've heard of the concept of it, yes.

B (46:45)

So there's kind of the concept of with one paperclip, the right business guy can come back in two months with a million dollars.

A (46:51)

Yeah.

B (46:52)

Yeah, right. But when I was going through the case study of the paperclip game, looking at people who had done it, I think it's relevant to businesses is that the people who come back with the best result at the end, it's, it's almost more about the trades they didn't make as opposed to trades they did make. So you could trade your, you know, you could end up having a stuffed animal, right? And then you could trade for like one expensive Gucci shoe. But you can't make another trade after that, Right. So you have to, you can't Try to rush to just get the best value at every short term transaction. You need to get incremental improvements. And then once out of every 20 trades, you're gonna have the ability to make an amazing trade because you find the right person or the right opportunity who really needs what you need. So you have a bottle of water and you run into somebody who's thirsty, well, they'll give you something worth 10x that bottle of water. And I think it's relevant in business is that you want to make the right incremental moves, but you don't want to make a move that ends up blocking further growth. And you make those right incremental moves so that you can get to that 1 in 20 opportunity every once in a while and then scale up or level up considerably. And all of the people in the case studies we were doing who actually came back with disproportionately highly valued things at the end, they were patient enough until they got to the point where they can make that bold move. And then they did safe moves for a while that incrementally moved them and then got another bold move. And I thought that was interesting. When you're looking at businesses, how many businesses are trying to make the home run every day, you know, and they end up losing it. It's about being smart enough to make those incremental trades and then being ready to make the giant trade when it comes up.

A (48:26)

Well, it's so interesting you're saying that because a part of me is like struggling with. There's a few brands that come top of mind that are in my orbit, that I feel like they're trying too hard, like they're trying to show up too much. And I actually think that there is an art, although it goes against what everyone says about the algorithm of just showing up in a way that's great.

B (48:50)

Actually. It just dawned on me and I should have put this in, but Apple was, Steve Jobs was in that when he came back, he didn't rush to hit a home run right away he goes, let's get amazing at what we're doing, but something is going to come along that we need to be ready to take advantage of. And it became the ipod. Like, you know, you know what I'm saying? So he didn't come in and try to make. But when you look at Apple today, every year, their new phone is exceptional and it's not right. They're kind of trading away their future value to their customer. Whereas Steve Jobs was like, let's just get good at what we're doing and let's pay attention for the next potential giant move. And that was the ipod. That then led to, you know, the screen with no typewriter. Like that's what businesses have to think.

A (49:33)

Think about the conversation I feel like we're perpetually faced with is a you be the business owner. Or then you would say to me, you know, Camille, I really want to have a viral moment. You know, I want a little labubu, like product. Like, okay, well how much money do you want to spend? Not much. Okay, so how much, you know, like how much can your team be involved in it? Like, what bandwidth you have? Oh, not much. We had to cut, you know, cut a bunch of bodies. Okay, well, you just keep having this conversation and they're not really prepared to do anything of what it takes to be great, but they want that great outcome.

B (50:09)

No, it's like they want, they want to have a six pack, but then they want to hire some cheap fitness company to do the sit ups for them. Right? Like, you have to actually be prepared to, to sacrifice your meal, your time and everything if you want to have a six pack. If you want to have a viable moment, you have to be able to sacrifice some resources.

A (50:26)

Controversial. That was another part of the skit too is like, are you prepared to say anything? And just like, no, no, you know.

B (50:30)

Like, are you prepared to dedicate some time?

A (50:32)

No, no, I'm too busy. You know, I have, I'm just gonna have you do it.

B (50:35)

So you want a six pack, but you want to eat donuts and not do the workouts?

A (50:38)

And it goes to that. The point on the grand tramezzo, it's like, well, can, like for you to start trading up, like, can you just execute something really well with the, the current clients you, you already have? You know, can you spend 20% more on your client experience to make, turn those clients into a. Like, like figure out what are the steps that you can take. Because if you have, if you're super bold and you're ready to say something interesting and you've got cash to spend, that's a different conversation than if you're effectively doing a proverbial paperclip, right? And you're needing to like to level up. And another angle I want to take with that story you gave is the approach to social. Because we're talking with really our best friend Hannah last night and she's awesome. You should check her out. Her name's Hannah Dunning online. She does like art of clean living and clean stuff and she's really had a huge full circle experience with going through kind of really wanting to be a purist, almost being a realist and you know, like how to communicate. Because when you're. And I feel like a lot of service providers suffer from this is like when you're so in the weeds, it's so hard to like not dilute your message but make it more approachable for someone that's coming in. Right. The way that I'm thinking about trying to make better, cleaner choices is not where she's at in her journey. So she doesn't even think about talking about Tide Pods because she's like, who the heck buys Tide Pods? And I'm like, a lot of people, like, a lot of people buy Tide Pods. So. But you're. By not talking about where most people are at, you miss a big part of the market. And what's interesting is most people don't realize that like to get to the viral moments, to get to like having a highly curated, very visual aesthetic page, it doesn't happen overnight. Like, you need to start trading up and you need to understand that the bare minimum to socials is like table, the table stakes is the who, what, where, why and how. And that's what we really break down. The social media masterclass is that most people don't understand, like how to have proper social brand foundations. Because for example, the makeup artist that we used for our special event, her and I were trading services, we were like talking about it while she was doing my makeup. I'm like, hey, you know, where would you recommend for like a facial and to get eyelashes done and blah, blah. And she sent them to me, but she sent them to me as an Instagram DM. She DM'd me their pages. That is how I, that is how you get referrals in the digital age. So if your socials are just like crappy photos or like graphics with text or like brutal testimonials, you're not maintaining the minimum standard of how people are referring your services.

B (53:13)

Sorry, just as a segue, there was a beautiful phrase that was used in the military when we were selecting for promotion boards. Yeah, it was like, nice guy tries hard, fails to achieve the minimum standard. Right. And so the minimum standard has changed. So you can be a nice person, you can try hard, but you know, you gotta. I just love that. Fails to achieve the minimum standard. Going back to your point, the feedback on the social media masterclass from a lot of people as, wow, it's, it's a lot of work to do this course. It's like, oh, no, you just wanted to spend a chunk of money and get, like, some quick tips. Well, then everybody would be there, my friend. Right? It's pushing a boulder. It's hard to get that boulder started. Yeah, you're gonna struggle. The first month is gonna be hard as heck to get that boulder moving. Once it gets moving, it gets a little bit easier. Right? Get some momentum. And now that boulder becomes a force of its own. Now you have momentum. You're now gonna start doing things. And people aren't willing to put it in. And I wanted to segue into your new book that we're bringing out the social media and brand planner that is, you know, all of the feedback is, my God, there's so much value in here. You know, am I ever going to be able to do it? But why did you think it was necessary to make that brand planner and social media planner?

A (54:27)

People aren't focused on what matters the most to their business. Right? Like you. When you want your socials to be done really well, you have to really focus on what makes you different, what makes you great, what does your customer care about? What are their pain points, what are they struggling with? And it's like simple shit. But, like, you gotta sit down and be like, okay, so my customer really is stressed about burning cash on marketing. Okay, so how do I address that? Right? Like, that is what people need. And what's so fascinating about socials? Cause we've worked, worked. You name the service or the industry, and like, we have worked in it from, like, solo companies to, like, the biggest brands in the world. And what's fascinating is the higher up you go, the least qualified the person is that's working on the account. Like, it's literally an unpaid intern who's like, fresh out of school that's running like, Nike socials or like, that was me being, you know, bit dramatic. But. And that is most brands, it actually is. It's just not. Not at Nike, but most brands. It's actually like an unpaid intern that's doing the socials. And that doesn't make sense because the person who understands the brand, the business the most is the owner. And they don't think that it makes sense for them to sit down and for them to do it. And it exists in their brain and nobody else can do it. And then you end up making more money and becoming more successful. And then you pay. An agency that doesn't know anything about your business is often has nothing more than a bachelor's degree is not qualified. Has never really run or owned any. Anything. And they're like creating graphics to check a box and they're making a 70 margin on, on what you're paying them. And it's.

B (56:02)

Yeah, they're doing cartwheels when it's not appropriate to do cartwheels. The, the reason why I won't tell that story of the cartwheel story, but it's a hilarious one. But the reason why we ended up moving towards social media and brand planner because people wanted a social media planner and it's like, well, there's no sense doing social media if you don't have your brand or if you don't understand how to build a brand.

A (56:27)

So the thing that's cool about, like, the big companies that have reached out, they're like the most confident, right? Like the, the, the big brands that like, have all the money and they reach out because they actually want to be reinforced. They've been shadow banned. Like, that's often. They're actually like paying to them a small fee to have a reinforcement that. Because their CMO has been telling them that like, TikTok hates them. They're. That's, you know, why they need to be reinforced by an expert online. And nine out of 10 times, it's a brand problem. It's not a social problem. And they, what they don't realize is that if you don't have a clear idea of your brand, if your idea of your brand and your brand core are not aligned, or if the business owner is like off in meetings and another team is trying to execute content, you're never going to have killer socials. But the problem is your brand lives and dies on social media. Like, to give you the example of the makeup artist, she's literally like, we now live in a world where if you and I talk about a restaurant to go to and I leave you, I'm sending you the restaurant's Instagram page into your inbox. I don't follow the Instagram. I don't. You're not gonna follow the Instagram. But whether, whether or not that restaurant makes money is based off their Instagram.

B (57:36)

But going back to your point about companies wanting to be told that they're shadow banned, it's almost. I was laughing because it's like there are times where you want to lie to somebody that you like. So for example, if somebody says, do I look fat in these jeans? It's not always, it's not always best to answer that. But when you're looking at your marketing or advertising strategy, and you say, do I look fat in these jeans? You know, somebody needs to say, yeah, you do. It sucks. Your content sucks.

A (58:07)

That's what I say. And the best part is they're like, okay, but we paid for this like social audit thing. So like, are we still gonna do that? I'm like, we can't. When your brand guide makes no sense and it's not aligned with your product. Like, you say you're disruptive, but you're not saying shit online. Like, what's the plan? How do we do this?

B (58:22)

But your current agency or your current market, they're all busy selling. Oh no, this is brilliant. This is amazing. Like, there must be some other reason why we're not getting suitors for our company. It's like, because.

A (58:32)

No, they're just like, you know, we're just, you know, we need to try harder. We need to do more of what we're doing. And it's like, no, you need to like do different. One of the, one of the brands I really respect is Mid A Square is I actually went to university with J. Carl's and he's been a hustler since first year university. Kudos to him and his sister for what they've built and what I love about what they do. There's such a perfect case study of like not posting all the time. But when they show up, it's a really great video that story tells and their content does really well because whenever they do a post, it's very well done, it's very thoughtful. It, it really continues to propel their story forward. And they've really built a whole like squad of humans all over the world that's really cheering them on because like, they've shared every step of the way in a way that's like really well done. And what I love about that is if you're a founder and you understand that having a personal brand is really important, which it really is, you don't have to have like these like these 22 year olds that are just putting out four posts per week because they're jumping on trends when it's like, when you, it's not really authentic, you know, like it's not really you like. And people.

B (59:42)

No. And they're almost scared to, to upset or, or insult the young people who really haven't built anything.

A (59:48)

Yeah. Anyhow, but the biggest problem though actually with that, that, with that piece is a lot of business owners don't want to be bothered with it. And that's the biggest problem is that, yes, you know I'm younger than you, but I haven't actually found creating content online easy. Like I actually, it's been really like I've really beaten myself up when I come back to Trips because I didn't get the shot right. I didn't like understand it correctly. I didn't have. And it's been a really big learning curve for me to really learn how to like shoot and create and post and to do content. And that difference is the difference between like making it and not. And when we talk about like founder led brands, like, you have to be involved.

B (60:33)

You know, I was doing content this morning on some of the leadership and coaching things and I was talking about the principles of leadership that are taught across all militaries at the highest level. And there's a reason why they're amazing. But the first principle of leadership is know yourself and seek so. And seek improvement.

A (60:49)

Yeah.

B (60:49)

Right. And if you're a founder, you have to know yourself and seek improvement. And, and sometimes knowing yourself means you don't want to do content or you're not comfortable with it because of past trauma or past whatever and all that stuff. But seeking improvement is actually doing what you need to do to get the job done.

A (61:05)

Well, especially when you like have a, a great story that needs to be shared. And I actually, that's why I would, I would promote the cohort because I've actually had a lot of, of founders that really just needed that extra push over six weeks to like really start to have those, those synaptic connections.

B (61:25)

Don't minimize it. You've transformed their lives like by getting in that environment so that they could actually like get that improvement. They need that push. Like it's, it's critical.

A (61:33)

It really is like that, that 10 difference. Well, when you talk about the Michelin we were talking about, I said at dinner last night and when I was so profoundly struck. So I've known the story obviously forever about the Michelin guides. But what was that idea worth? You know, like, it's one thing to execute it, but like for your brain to just be in that room to think about those kinds of things, like that's the difference.

B (61:55)

But I don't know if it was actually worth much to Michelin. I think it just, it changed the world. Right. Like in terms of the value to the tire company, like I don't even think of Michelin star. I don't even think of tires. Like it's become its own.

A (62:08)

Yeah. Over time. But it maintained the value of the tires for a long time. Right. Like we're talking about like it's been like 100 years, right? Like, it's. But my point is, like, when you think about the asymmetric upsides in your life, it's the quality of information you consume, it's the level of books that you read, it's. It's the kind of places that you put yourself in. And if you're the kind of person that invest, invests in self development, you're going to develop at a faster rate.

B (62:32)

It's also the antithesis to comfort zones. Like, I think a lot of people want to exist in their comfort zones. And the people coming out of schools have been, have been cultivated in safe spaces. So it's like. But you can't get the growth you want if you stay only in comfort zones. You have to do something that's uncomfortable every week on socials or in your business. Like, that's what I'm trying to promote to these founders and business owners is do things that have a cost to them. But you're gonna grow. Like, all growth in fitness comes from the last rep, right? But if you don't want to go to that discomfort zone where that last rep is, you don't grow.

A (63:07)

But to go back to the paperclip, like, you got to show up at the gym first. You know, like, there's stages to growth and that's why people, people want the outcome. Especially in a world where, like, digital social media, like, it all looks so easy. Like you look a little boo boo and you're like, it doesn't make sense. But it's actually the way that they've structured the company. Company, the scarcity. It's very intelligent and a lot of like, the smartest things look simple, but they're, it's, you know, it takes a lot to get there. Okay, well, we loved having you guys back for another week of art of the brand. We will see you next Tuesday. If you're interested in the cohort, I'm launching one in October. Send me a note. Instagram's great. If you want to send me a quick dm.

B (63:44)

Social media and brand planner is coming. It is one. It's going to be spectacular. Keep your eyes out for that.

A (63:49)

Yeah, get on those. If you want to be on the like, like, first we're gonna do like a special edition something something. I mean, I work enough with brands that I've done like influencer boxes, so it's about time. I have my own influencer box. So everybody, I mean, when I say influencer box, I mean you will get a pretty box with a pretty pen and some other pretty gifts in there. But. And if you're a guy, not pretty, but cool. And I hope everyone has a fantastic day who.